pepper-spices-msg - 8/18/17

Medieval peppers. The spice, not the New World pepper plant.

NOTE: See also the files: spices-msg, spice-grndng-msg, spice-mixes-msg, spice-storage-msg, vanilla-msg, nutmeg-mace-msg, merch-spices-msg, gums-resins-msg, G-of-Paradse-msg, cinnamon-msg, peppers-msg.

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NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
************************************************************************

From: gfrose  at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:52:23 -0500
Subject: Re:  SC - Re: Spice Use and Food Poisoning, etc.

Hi, Katerine here.  Allison responds to Phillipa:

>As for the current heavy use of pepper in foods, I think that followed
>the popularity of Mexican--or American-version Mexican--foods.  Tests
>have been done by restaurant chains and food companies, and they have
>found that more people ate more food if it were heavily spiced.  

Pepper was the cheapest medieval spice, and the one most heavily documented
as used widely not only in upper class cookery but in every class right
down to peasants.  The current use is a revival (not particularly of
medieval practices; relative to a significant drop here in the middle of
this century).  Medievals used a number of pepper-like spices, including
cubeb and grains of paradise (I'm not speaking botannically, but in
terms of general flavor class), both of which I've fed to people with
no interest whatsoever in historical cuisine, to rave reviews.  The
bottom line, I think, is that people everywhere use spices because they
*taste good*.  That so many spices show up across so wide a swath of
culinary traditions suggests that this is simply a human tendency.  How
much spices we eat results, among other things, from the food we're
used to.  Whether people in general like the flavor of any spices at all 
seems more strongly related to the interaction between human taste and 
smell and the spices themselves.

- -- Katerine/Terry


From: "Philip W. Troy" <troy  at asan.com>
Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 01:07:03 -0400
Subject: Re: SC - Long pepper

LYN M PARKINSON wrote:
> What, exactly, is long pepper?  I am allergic to all peppers so haven't
> investigated this, but I ought to know about it as it appears in so many
> recipes, and I could have a fellow cook add it after I'd sampled the
> pepperless version.
> 
> Allison

Long pepper is piper longum, as opposed to piper negrum, or black
pepper. It is a close realtive of black pepper, but the little berries
grow in a cluster similar to a tiny oblong bunch of grapes or an ear of
grain. Flavor is apparently similar but not identical to black pepper.

I have not used it myself, and have not run across any in 15 years or so
of looking, on and off. Some claim it is extinct, while others claim to
know where it can be obtained by mail order. All I know is that I've
never seen any long pepper, and don't think I've net anyone else who has
seen it themselves. Plenty of "friend of a friend" stuff, though, so I
suppose it could be a sort of urban legend.

My apologies to anyone who may have seen or used the stuff: I am not
accusing anyone of deceit, just saying I've never seen it.

Adamantius


From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy  at asan.com>
Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 11:51:52 -0400
Subject: SC - Re: Long Pepper (again!)

ALERT! ALERT! DANGER, WILL SCATLOCH!

I've just made a rather silly error, and thought I'd point it out before
anyone attempts to act upon this whole issue...

The most competent herbal encyclopedia I know shows quite clear
illustrations of both piper negrum and piper longum. The Negrum variety,
or black pepper, also grows in a long, fairly tight cluster, which looks
rather like an elongated blackberry. I suspect the individual berries
are separated to facilitate even fermentation (whence comes the
blackness) and drying.

Piper longum is apparently much smaller than black pepper (1 inch or so
vs. 3 or 4 inches long) and is more tightly packed in the cluster. So,
the cross-hatching effect drawn by some artists may have some basis in
reality; it looks almost like the bud from which a pine-cone grows.

I therefore suspect it's possible Ysabeau has seen green peppercorns.

Also, in case it helps, I have here some alternate names for the beastie
in question:

Pharmaceutical name:	Fructus Piperis Longi
Botanical name:		Piper Longum
Mandarin:			BÏ B·  (That's Bi Ba, with both vowels accented facing
each 	other, like angry cartoon eyebrows, for those of you with straight ASCII text readers)
Japanese:				Hihatsu
Korean:				P'ilhal
English: 				Long Pepper Fruit

I also have a pair of Chinese ideograms, which might be useful for the
non-Mandarin-speaking Chinese, but I can't duplicate them here on short
notice.

I also have acquired a listing of every herb store in the New York City
area (several hundred) , and so the hunt begins...See what you people
started??? :   )

Sorry about the error. Didn't mean to mislead anyone. It 's just that my
tiny brain is full, and for each new thing I learn, I tend to forget
something else.

Adamantius


Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 00:19:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: LrdRas  at aol.com
Subject: SC - Cubebs

<< what is cubebs >>

Cubebs = cubeb berries. Sort of peppery tasting with a hint of allspice.
Although they are not used in modern cookery in my knowledge, they are still
used in the production of gin as are galingal and grains.

Ras


Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 07:40:01 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy  at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Roc recipe-sort of

> I have heard of galengal and grains of paradise [and I think I finally
> found a shop that carries some!,but what is cubebs?
> Lady Beatrix of Tanet

Cubebs are yet another black pepper relative, looking vaguely like an
allspice berry, but tasting rather like pepper with a strange numbing
effect on the tongue. Not too different from Szechuan or Sansho or
Fagara peppercorns (which are also not peppercorns, either...), and
these are pretty good substitutes if you can't find cubebs.

Adamantius 


Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:04:24 -0800
From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" <acrouss  at gte.net>
Subject: Re: SC - spices

Hi all from Anne-Marie
Angeline asks about grains of paradise and cubebs...

If you can't get grains, I would recommend a mix of two parts black pepper
to one part ginger. If you cant get cubebs, I would recommend substituting
Tellicherry or other high quality flavorful black peppercorns. _Pleyn
Delit_ says to use cardomom or a mix of cardamom and black pepper for
grains, but to my palate, there is no flavor of cardamom. She admitted to
me in a private email that she wrote that without ever having SEEN grains,
much less tasted them. When I chomp on a cubeb, all I really taste is
pepper.

- --AM


Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 15:09:29 EST
From: CorwynWdwd <CorwynWdwd  at aol.com>
Subject: Re: SC - spices

> There was a formula to 'create' cubebs, or something that would make the
>  same sort of taste, but I haven't found anything about grains of paradise.
>  How/Where can I find that.

Cubebs can be found at a lot of Indian markets. You can TRY substituting
allspice and pepper. Grains of Paradise are a kind of Cardomon, and they taste
similar in my experence. Try an Indian or Orental market if there's one
nearby.

Cprwyn


Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 23:24:21 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr  at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - spices

Corwyn wrote (concerning grains of paradise):
>Okay, okay, they're not EXACTLY like cardomon, but the ones in my kitchen
>right now taste like in intense (as in dried) cardomon. :-)

>>Of course, when I've been out to buy black mustard seeds (and called first)

>I've been offered brown when I got there (and there most assuridly IS a
>difference). Maybe I got shafted again?

>>Corwyn.

To me they taste peppery but not quite as hot and maybe a little sweeter?(It is hard to describe tastes.) Not particularly like cardamon.  As towhether you got what you thought you were getting, grains are a little smaller than peppercorns, brown rather than the almost black of pepper,almost round but pointed at one spot which is tan--looks almost yellow against the brown.

Elizabeth/Betty Cook


Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:49:55 EDT
From: DianaFiona <DianaFiona  at aol.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Fwd: Spice Is Nice

<< Ras says:
 > My only disappoint is that they don't carry long pepper which I would
 > give my eye teeth to get ahold of especially if it were still clustered.
 > <sigh>

 Worldspice carries long peppers, and if by "still clustered", you mean
 still looking like little long petrified catkins, that's the stuff. >>

     Haven't looked at their site in a while, but I believe that Sirene Spices
(They're the ones that have been advertising in TI.) sell long pepper also.
Their address is: http://www.silk.net/sirene/

         Ldy Diana, who *really* needs to get around to ordering from one of
these wonderful places!


Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:53:25 EDT
From: LrdRas <LrdRas  at aol.com>
Subject: SC - Whole spices

stefan  at texas.net writes:
<< What differance would it make if it were still clustered or not? Or do
 you have a specific use in mind that needs the long pepper to still be
 on clusters? >>

There are two things which make purchasing long pepper in clusters (or any
other spice whole). First you are relatively assured that the spice has not
been adulterated. Secondly being clustered reduces the surface area which
comes in contact with the surrounding atmosphere thereby reducing oxidation
and deterioration resulting in a much longer shelf life. We see the same
concept in purchasing other spices whole such as nutmegs, peppercorns,
cinnamon sticks and saffron threads. The less processing the better.

Ras


Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 08:25:07 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD  at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - pepper

Black pepper (Piper nigrum) is of Javanese origin.  It originally appears to
have been imported into Europe by Romans trading in Egypt and the Levant.
The trade continued after the fall of Rome and made pepper one of the major
spices of medieval times.

Black pepper is the entire fruit.  White pepper is the fruit with the dark
outer hull removed.  I've found no date for the initial use of white pepper,
but, IIRC, I have seen a late period recipe which calls for it.  For
authenticity, black pepper is probably the best call.  The difference
between white and black pepper is that white pepper has a milder taste

The genus Piper also contains cubeb, betel, and kava.

Bear


Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 16:55:53 -0500
From: "Margo Farnsworth" <margokeiko  at esslink.com>
Subject: Re: SC - pepper

I found this page on the web with their description of the plant:
http://www.shadow.net/~heruka/seeds.html
Piper Nigrum: "Black-pepper, Peppercorn-plant" P. Nigrum is the true source
of Black pepper, and not to be confused with Capiscum (hot) peppers. Piper
Nigrum is an extremely ornamental plant, perfect for the home and great in a
greenhouse. This species appears like a vine with heart shaped leaves and
produces a semi-epiphytic growth of roots from stem. Highly suggested...Very
prolific and a rarity. Plant $ 12

>Is it possible to grow black pepper in a garden?
>Or would it even be worth the effort?
>
>Fallon

From the other info I found, the plant is subtropical or tropical, so I
guess it would depend on where you live if you could grow it outside or not.

Faoiltighearna
Torvald's Hird
Canton of Ravenhill, BBM, East


Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 18:25:58 -0500
From: "Margo Farnsworth" <margokeiko  at esslink.com>
Subject: Re: SC - pepper

>So out of curiosity then, how do the peppers grow on the plant and how are
>they prepared for use?

A pretty decent picture can be found at:
http://www.albion.edu/fac/biol/skean/pipenipg.htm

From looking at this picture, I would assume the fruit is allowed to mature
and then picked and dried.  I have also seen in gourmet stores green
peppercorns in brine, I assume these are picked and pickled while still
fresh.

Faoiltighearna


Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 18:50:00 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy  at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - pepper

The peppercorns are basically berries growing in a cluster from a
central stem, like a little bunch of grapes, or perhaps like a
blackberry. The berries are removed from the stem, and, as I recall,
allowed to ferment somewhat, blackening the fruit layer of the berries.
They are then dried.

At some point in this process the fruit pulp layer is removed from some
peppercorns, leaving only the pale seed, a.k.a. white peppercorns.

Adamantius
Østgardr, East


Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 00:04:04 -0000
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" <nannar  at isholf.is>
Subject: Re: SC - pepper

Black pepper is the unripe fruit and is green before drying. White pepper is
the seed of the ripe fruit (the fruit itself is red). For more info on
pepper (and other spices), try this site (scroll down to the index and click
on pepper):

http://www-ang.kfunigraz.ac.at/~katzer/engl/index.html

Nanna


Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 20:51:46 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD  at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC -

Looking in Waverly Root's Food, the comment is made that Horace thought the
perfect general seasoning was black salt and white pepper.  Horace lived in
the 1st Century BCE, so white pepper should be in period.

Root does comment that green pepper was not known in the Occident before
W.W.II.

Bear


Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 08:22:05 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy  at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - white pepper

Stefan li Rous wrote:
> Is white pepper not period? I remember it being called for in the Savory
> Toasted cheese redactions because that was the reason we first bought
> some white pepper. Guess I should go take a look at the redaction and
> the original recipe.

It probably existed, but may not have been used in Europe until late in
period. I note that it is not mentioned by Taillevent as one of the
spices necessary for running a kitchen, for what that's worth.

Today white pepper is used extensively in Asian cooking, especially
southern Chinese dishes (and pretty aggressively, too -- that cuisine is
possibly the most subtle on earth but definitely not bland), and in
situations where the appearance of black pepper in a whitish food might
be deemed unattractive, like, say, in a Nouvelle Cuisine (for the new
people on this list, that's what HG Cariadoc calls any European dish
from after ~1550, C.E.) dish of Savoury Toasted Cheese...

I vaguely recall, offhand, seeing white pepper mentioned in one or two
Nouvelle Cui -- I mean late period recipes.

Adamantius


Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 07:10:02 -0800
From: "David Dendy" <ddendy  at silk.net>
Subject: SC - White Pepper in Period

Just catching up on recent messages. Several people asked whether white
pepper was imported to Europe and used in period. Here's what I can come up
with in a hurry.

Pliny the Elder's *Natural History* in the first century AD mentions three
sorts of pepper. Black pepper fetched four denarii a pound, white pepper got
seven, and long pepper was most expensive at fourteen denarii.

The Italian merchant manual of Pegolotti (Florence, between 1310 and 1340)
includes round (black) pepper, white pepper, and long pepper among its list
of 288 'spices'. Uzzano's manual of 1442 also lists white pepper. It is
separately noted in some customs tariffs.

Marco Polo noted large quantities of white pepper in the Malaysian
archipelago (although this was probably mainly for export to China, where
white pepper was a preferred variety).

So white pepper was known to Europe, and was imported to some degree. What I
do not know is whether it was used to any significant extent in cookery. I
don't offhand recall seeing any recipes in period cookbooks which called
specifically for white pepper. Perhaps those who are going through cookbooks
would be kind enough to keep an eye open for mentions of white pepper, and
post any if found?

Francesco Sirene

David Dendy / ddendy  at silk.net
partner in Francesco Sirene, Spicer / sirene  at silk.net
Visit our Website at http://www.silk.net/sirene/


Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 09:18:49 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy  at asan.com>
To: sca-cooks  at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] peppercorns and black salt

Stefan li Rous wrote:
> As mentioned in another message, while at one of my local Mediterranean
> stores today, I bought some bottles of peppercorns.
> 1) Pink peppercorns in water, vinegar and salt
> 2) Green peppercorns in brine (water and salt)
>
> I've always gotten the whole dried peppercorns before or the ground ones,
> how would I use these pickled/brined ones? Are there particular dishes
> where these would be better used than the dried ones?

They're good, whole, in sauces, because they don't shatter your molars
and are milder than black or white peppercorns. The pink ones are nice
to garnish things like salads, while classic applications for green ones
include a poivre vert sauce for sauteed steak (yes, all you folk out
there in barbecue-land, sauteed steak is _good_). Essentially you cook
your steaks, drain off most of the fat, if applicable, add your
peppercorns and heat quickly, then deglaze the pan with  a brown sauce
or demiglaze (just on the off-chance you're one of those people that
keeps a supply of demiglaze on hand), or even heavy cream. Slosh a
half-cup or so into your pan and heat, stirring until the cream
dissolves the hard cooked bits of meat juice left in the pan and
thickens slightly.

> When would you use green peppercorns instead of the black or white
> ones? When would you want to use the pink ones? The pink ones are
> a different plant that the ones that the green, black and white
> ones come from. Were the pink peppercorns known in period Europe?

I remember reading that a slightly higher proportion of people are
allergic to pink peppercorns, in comparison to the others.

> Were brined/pickled peppercorns available/used in period Europe?

If yes, I assume they were rare, given the comparative difficulty of
shipping heavy jars of brine from the Far East, as opposed to sacks or
boxes of dry spices. I suspect it would be considered fiscally ineffective.
  Adamantius
--
Phil & Susan Troy


Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 11:10:07 -0500
To: sca-cooks  at ansteorra.org
From: Nicolas Steenhout <vavroom  at bmee.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] peppercorns and black salt

Stefan,

As you mention, pink peppercorn is no pepper.  That said, it's pretty good,
IMHO.  I admit to have never usen it brined.

I find the flavour of pink a little more delicate, tend to use it with
poultry and fishes.  Light cream sauces.

Green peppercorn goes well with meats.  Venison and hare are two I like to
use green peppercorn with.

I usualy just take it out of jar, drain, and then use whole or chopped.

The "black" salt I've seen and used before was simply sea salt where all
impurities hadn't been removed.  May not be the same.

Muiredach mac Loloig
Rokkehealden Shire


Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 17:08:55 -0500
From: Chip <jallen  at multipro.com>
To: sca-cooks  at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re[2]: [Sca-cooks] On cubebs and grains of paradise

> Anyone out there know of a source for Benin pepper??  TYIA
>     Mike Acord

Sirene  http://www.silk.net/sirene/ didn't seem to have any.  Neither
did www.worldspice.com.

I didn't find Benin Pepper, but it goes by these aliases.  Try
searching for them with google.com.

BENIN PEPPER
Piper clusii
Piper guineense
Ashantee Pepper
Ashanti pepper
African Cubebs
False cubeb pepper
Guinea cubeb
West-African black pepper
Guinea pepper


Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 15:30:33 -0800
To: sca-cooks  at ansteorra.org
From: david friedman <ddfr  at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Salt and pepper

On the subject of adding pepper, the following is from Manuscrito
Anonimo (13th c. Andalusian):

"There are others who sprinkle ground pepper over the food when it is
cut for eating; this is a practice of the Christians and Berbers."
--
David Friedman
Professor of Law
Santa Clara University
ddfr  at best.com


Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 10:29:49 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker  at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] long pepper, was To Make a Fine Spice
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks  at ansteorra.org>

> Does anyone know where (or if) it is possible to find <Benin pepper>?

The only place I could find that handles it is Sunshine Seeds (in 
Germany, I believe).

It is also called Ashanti pepper, Guinea pepper and pimenta da rabo, but
there is a lot of confusion about precisely what is meant by the common
names.  I think what you are after is Piper guineese, and I would identify
it by both common name and scientific name if I found a place to order 
it.

Bear


From: "Phlip" <phlip  at 99main.com 
Date: March 18, 2004 11:34:41 AM CST 
To: "SCA-Cooks" <sca-cooks  at ansteorra.org 
Cc: "SPCA" <spca-wascaerfrig  at yahoogroups.com 
Subject: [spca-wascaerfrig] More on long pepper, cubebs, and such.... 

I'm involved in a conversation with Gene Anderson about Asian cookery, relating to something completely seperate from the discussion on Cook's List, and he just posted me the following, that I think y'all might find of interest. 

Ene bichizh ogsen baina shuu... 

Yes on the peppers. Long pepper and cubeb pepper are both very closely related to black pepper, and very similar. They come from India and southeast Asia--I don't think anybody knows exactly where. They succumbed to chiles and to the increased availability of black pepper, slowly, from the 1500s to the 1900s. Grains of paradise, a.k.a. Melagueta pepper, is (are?) an African cardamom, genus Aframomum.
 
They were wildly popular in the Middle Ages and Renaissance in Europe, but gave way to a variety of other spices as those became more available. Indian cardamom (genus Elettaria) was the main beneficiary, I think. It's the only "cardamom" known to the west now, except locally in west Africa where Aframomum still exists. But then there are all those Asian cardamoms--the "large" or "brown" cardamoms of the species-rich genus Amomum. Different species of this genus are used all over monsoon Asia. 

To be impossibly compulsively authentic in your Cambodian or North Laotian cooking you'd have to seek out the right species. Actually they're all very similar and pretty interchangeable. They are quite a bit like Aframomum but very different from Elettaria. Elettaria has a pocket of heavy use in the Baltic area, esp Finland and Sweden, because of the long history of seafaring to the Indian Ocean. Chiles not only displaced long and cubeb pepper, but also displaced native East Asian hot (picante) stuff like mugwort and smartweed. Smartweed has a fascinating pocket of survival in Vietnam, where a particularly flavorful kind exists that was too damn good to be displaced by anything. It's rau ram in Vietnamese and Polygonum sp. in Latin. (I'm not sure of the species--there has been controversy--it's one of those domesticated things of rather obscure origin.) 

Hunan food was famously hot long before chiles--peppers, smartweed, mugwort, and Chinese brown "pepper" (Zanthoxylum, actually a citrus relative) being the spicy things. 

This is probably more than you wanted to know.... Thanks very much for the correspondence!! 

best--Gene 

Saint Phlip, CoDoLDS 


Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 19:31:32 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Peppers
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

As to what the English thought about peppers (white, black, and long)
one can read the 1588 work--
A short discourse of the three kindes of peppers in common vse and certaine special medicines made of the same, tending to the preseruation of health.
It's by Walter Baley or Bailey, 1529-1592.
STC 1199. On microfilm, EEBO and also as part of the English Experience series.
The British Library copy also 1588 is STC 1200.
Bailey talks a lot about what the Spanish and Portuguese voyages have discovered.
"We do read of another kind of pepper brought out of the Indians, which
the Portingals called Piemento Rabo, in Latin Piper caudatum, and may be englished taile pepper."

Johnnae


Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 16:59:05 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Real Cubebs?

Here's part of the confusion.  Guinea pepper is used to refer to Afromomum 
melegueta (Grains of Paradise), Piper guineense (West African Pepper and a 
common substitute for P. cubeba) and Xylopia aethiopica (Grains of Selim). 
I suspect that what she has are P. guineense and they are the closest in 
taste to cubebs.

Bear

<<< Cubeb Berry (Piper cubeba) are a complete  separate pepper and should not
be confused with Guinea Pepper -Grains of Paradise (Amomum melegeuta).
They do have different tastes.

Mora Blackmarsh
Dragonmarsh >>>


Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 15:30:21 -0500
From: Elise Fleming <alysk at ix.netcom.com>
To: sca-cooks <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Spices

Greetings!  I hadn't been aware that there were two (or more??) kinds of 
long pepper until I visited Hampton Court.  I was given a tiny bit of 
the second variety (name unknown) which ended up being so spicy that my 
tongue was numbed.

Alys K.


Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 15:16:37 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Spices

Ahh, Piper longum is the more common long pepper.  It is also referred to as 
Indian long pepper.  Piper retrofractum is a related pepper plant native to 
Java called Balinese long pepper or Javanese long pepper.  If both were used 
at Hampton Court in Tudor times, that is an interesting tidbit.

Bear

<<< Greetings!  I hadn't been aware that there were two (or more??) kinds of 
long pepper until I visited Hampton Court.  I was given a tiny bit of the 
second variety (name unknown) which ended up being so spicy that my tongue 
was numbed.

Alys K. >>>


Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 16:30:36 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Spices

<<< This brings up an interesting question.
When a manuscript just says pepper we all seem to assume they mean regular 
black pepper (or at least we use it because it is handy).
IIRC the Early English stuff seems to differentiate between long pepper 
and pepper but the Italian corpus (of which I am most familiar) doesn't 
seem to say anything but pepper.
Should we be using modern pepper?
Should we be using one of the long peppers?
Really let's not go there on chili peppers.

Eduardo >>>

Black pepper can be placed in Egypt (being used in mummification) as early 
as 1200 BCE.  Long pepper was known as a medication in Greece around 600 
BCE.  Their use as a condiment in the Mediterranean world is a little more 
tricky, but we can set that as early as 2nd Century BCE in the Roman world 
(IIRC).

The Classic Roman corpus does not generally differentiate between long and 
black pepper, but Pliny states, that long pepper cost 15 denarii per pound, 
white pepper cost 7 denarii per pound and black pepper cost 4 denarii per 
pound.  Given the prices, black pepper would have been the most common.  The 
Italian corpus likely follows the Roman lack of differentiation.

Long pepper is a very small seed (similar in size to poppy seed, black 
pepper is a relatively large one.  When one talks about "peppercorn," the 
reference is to black pepper.

Both were known and used in Europe in period, so if a recipe does not 
diffentiate, you could use either.  It is worth noting that there was a 
decline in the use of long pepper, starting around the 12th Century, leaving 
black pepper as the most readily available pepper in Europe by the 14th 
Century, so later period recipes calling for pepper are more likely to use 
black pepper.

Bear


Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 14:12:44 -0800
From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at jeffnet.org>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Spices

On 1/15/2012 1:37 PM, Elise Fleming wrote:
Bear wrote:
<<< Long pepper is a very small seed (similar in size to poppy seed, black
pepper is a relatively large one. >>>

Long pepper is a small seed?  That's not what's being sold as long 
pepper at Pennsic, etc.  It's an oblong thing up to half an inch long. 
Did you mis-say this?

Alys K.
============

Actually, they are. That long thing is made up of little tiny seeds. 
Some of the bigger ones make it easier to see the individual pods. But 
when you grind them you should be able to see some of the seeds. They're 
smaller than a poppy seed.

Liutgard


Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 18:34:47 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Spices

Bear wrote:
<<< Long pepper is a very small seed (similar in size to poppy seed, black
pepper is a relatively large one. >>>

Long pepper is a small seed?  That's not what's being sold as long pepper 
at Pennsic, etc.  It's an oblong thing up to half an inch long. Did you 
mis-say this?

Alys K.
=============

What you are referencing is the flower spike or catkin which contains many 
closely packed seeds.  Black pepper actually has a similar structure, but 
the size of the seeds keep them from being closely packed.

Bear 


Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 03:34:57 +0000
From: CHARLES POTTER <basiliusphocas at hotmail.com>
To: <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Spices

The Banchetti/Libro Novo uses long pepper in a few recipes and lists in the section on things to have in the larder.

                                       Master B

From: david at vastrepast.com
<<< This brings up an interesting question. 
When a manuscript just says pepper we all seem to assume they mean regular black pepper (or at least we use it because it is handy). 
IIRC the Early English stuff seems to differentiate between long pepper and pepper but the Italian corpus (of which I am most familiar) doesn't seem to say anything but pepper. 
Should we be using modern pepper? 
Should we be using one of the long peppers? 
Really let's not go there on chili peppers. 

Eduardo >>> 


Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 09:33:34 -0800
From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at jeffnet.org>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Spices

(about longpepper)

And those are tough little buggers! I wore a bruise in the palm of my 
hand grinding long pepper for cookies this Christmas.

Liutgard

On 1/17/2012 5:18 AM, Dan Schneider wrote:
Personally, I always just grind the whole thing

Dan

--- On Tue, 1/17/12, Claire Clarke<angharad at adam.com.au>  wrote:
<<< I was going to say what about the big 'long' things? So if you are grinding
them up should you grind up the whole thing or just the little seeds? Would
there be a difference in flavour if you did?

Angharad >>>


Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:08:55 +0000
From: CHARLES POTTER <basiliusphocas at hotmail.com>
To: <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Spices

<<< What is the Italian? 
Which page of the facsimile? 
Would love to look at it. 

Eduardo >>>

  Sorry too take so long to get back to you, but it took me a while to look this up.  Long pepper is listed as pepe longo on page 6 in the 1564 Libro Novo.  It is also listed as one word (pepelongo) in the PDF 1549 Banchetti.
In both books it is listed as an ingredient in the 3rd recipe to wit: A FARE SOSAMELLI PERFETTISSIMI NV (sig) MERO (sig) XXXVI
TO MAKE 36 OF THE MOST PERFECT COOKIES.  It is called pevere longo in the recipe i.e long pepper.  I think it is used in one or two 
more recipes, but I have not been able to find any more right now.

                                                              Master B   


Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 21:21:21 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] The Pepper Trail

I've recently add Jean Andrews "The Pepper Trail" to the reference shelf and 
it is worth some commentary on this list.

This book is coffee table format and nicely illustrated.  It is divided into 
two sections; the history of peppers and their spread through the world and 
then how and where they are used in various cuisines (including modern 
recipes).  There is a section of notes to the text.  And there is a rather 
extensive bibliography.  The first section is a biology monograph 
masquerading as popular non-fiction.

The author, Jean Andrews (1923-2010) was a noted Texas academic with a PhD 
in Biology and degrees in Home Economics and Marine Studies (according to 
one bio).  She has written a number of books, the best known being Shells 
and Peppers:  The Domestic Capsicums.  She was not a historian, which is an 
important consideration in regards some problems I have with the book.

Beginning with Leonhardt Fuchs botanical description of some of the capsicum 
peppers in 1542, Andrews undertakes to describe the migration of certain 
species of capsicums from South America into Mexico and, more importantly, 
into the West Indies using a combination of botanical and historical data. 
She then uses contemporary and modern sources to lay out her view of how and 
when the peppers moved from Spain to Portugal and into West Africa and Asia. 
In part, her argument addresses the idea that maize, beans, sweet potatoes 
and squash were commonly grown together in the New World and moved into the 
Columbian Exchange at roughly the same time and probably as a group with the 
peppers being an adjunct plant that likely moved with them.

Andrews concludes that New World crops were being grown in the Azores, 
Madeira, the Cape Verdes and in Guinea between the Senegal and Niger Rivers 
by 1502.  That is, before the first Columbian landing on the mainland and 
before the Portuguese slave trade's entry into the Caribbean in 1509. 
Adding a reference to Duarte Barbosa commenting on the export of Mihlo 
grosso (maize) from Gujarat, India in 1516 provides an interesting picture 
of just how swiftly the New World crops entered the non-European Old World.

I've spent the past couple of days just going over the references.  The book 
is worth reading for anyone with an interest in the Columbian Exchange.  The 
references to various sources alone are worth the effort.

That said, there are problems, not with the carefully sourced references, 
but with some of the general commentary.  Remembering that Andrews is not a 
historian and her Home Economics was a Bachelor Degree, she introduces some 
of the shibboleths we've been debunking on this list for years; dreadful 
food, hiding the odor of spoilage, and (a new and interesting claim 
considering the high grain European diet of the day) that Europeans were 
carnivorous (although that may be a relative comparison to other diets of 
the period).  Note that there are no references for these particular 
opinions and they are likely an artifact of Andrews's prior education.

If you are interested, the bibliographic data is:
Andrews, Jean, The Pepper Trail:  History and Recipes From around the World, 
University of North Texas Press, 1999.

I picked up my copy from Edward R. Hamilton Bookseller Co.

Bear 

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	pepper-spice-msg	2 of 17