orng-flwr-wtr-msg - 5/10/15

Medieval use and creation of Orange Flower Water. Recipes using orange flower water.

NOTE: See also the files: rose-water-msg, rose-syrup-msg, rose-oil-msg, fruit-citrus-msg, perfumes-msg, Perfumes-bib, flowers-msg, cook-flowers-msg.

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NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 17:4950 -0800
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Asabi Zainab
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Cynara wrote:
> Since you don't care for rosewater, you might try orange blossom water. It
> has the same kind of floral character but I personally find it much more
> pleasant. It's called for in several early Catalan recipes so it should be
> appropriate for this dish.

I love orange flower water. It is used in Spanish and Catalan recipes
as well as in modern Moroccan recipes.

However, i haven't seen orange flower water in the Abbasid cookbooks,
of which the Book of the Description of Familiar Foods is one.

So while i think its perfectly fine to substitute for rose water in
a modern recipe, it wouldn't do for a period recreation in my opinion.

I think it would depend on the reason one is making the sweet. For
entry into a competition, i would want to avoid ingredients i don'tfind in the particular cookbook, no matter how tasty they are.

Anahita


Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 19:23:18 -0800
From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at jeffnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Orange flavored wafers ( was RE: Pomegranate
	and Onion Juice)
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> niccolo difrancesco asked me:
>
> <<< What did you decide to use for orange flavoring? >>>
>
> I couldn't find the orange flower water I thought I might have, so
> when I went to the store I looked through the various flavorings they
> had in their baking section and found "Orange Extract" and "Cinnamon
> Extract" both by McCormick. Both are alcohol based 79% and 51%
> respectively, with  oil of orange or extractives of cinnamon. I have
> no idea how the first compares to Orange Flower water.

Orange flower water tastes _nothing_ like orange or orange juice. It
is very like rose water, only more 'flowery'. Lacking orange lower
water, I would substitute rose water.

'Lainie, been there, done that.


Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 23:40:38 -0700
From: "Sue Clemenger" <mooncat at in-tch.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Orange flavored wafers ( was RE: Pomegranate
	andOnion Juice)
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Smells like orange *blossoms*, and not the fruit at all.  flowery, sweet,
delicate if just a few, overpowering if there are lots.  like the way enough
rosewater is perfect, and even a bit too much can be awful.....
--maire


Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 19:30:20 -0800
From: Lilinah <lilinah at earthlink.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Orange Flower Water, was Orange flavored wafers (
	was Pomegranate and Onion Juice)
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Orange flower water doesn't taste or smell anything like oranges. Nor
does it smell or taste anything like rose flower water, although the
usage is often similar.

As for use, i like my hot chocolate with about twice as much
unsweetened cocoa powder as sugar, then i pour in the hot milk and
stir, then i add a dash of orange flower water instead of vanilla.

Strangely, I haven't seen recipes using orange flower water within
SCA period (anyone know of any?). Yes, i know that oranges came a bit
late, but the first recipe i recall seeing orange flower water is
from the mid-17th C., in "Le Cuisinier Francois", i think, which
seems rather late to me. Clearly the Arabs were distilling things, to
get rose water, for example, and i wonder why they didn't make and
use orange flower water, too. Or perhaps the cookbooks using it have
been lost (or not translated). I'm going to start looking for just
"flower water" as it appears that way in some 17th c. references.
-- 
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita


Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 22:09:11 -0600
From: Vitaliano Vincenzi <vitaliano at shanelambert.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Orange Flower Water, was Orange flavored
	wafers ( was Pomegranate and Onion Juice)
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I have seen a couple of items that require Orange Flower Water. In fact,
there is one here:

http://breadbaker.tripod.com/sweets.html?

The one for PARA HAZER ROSQUILLAS (To Make Little Rings). I am planning
to make some of these in the not to distant future so I picked some up.
Found it at the local Woodman's Grocery store for only a few bucks a
bottle, along with my Rose Water. It's in the Asian food aisle around  
here.
-- 
Lord Vitaliano Vincenzi
aka Shane Lambert
http://www.periodfood.blogspot.com


Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 01:01:25 -0500
From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Orange Flower Water,	was Orange flavored
	wafers ( was Pomegranate and Onion Juice)
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> Strangely, I haven't seen recipes using orange flower water within
> SCA period (anyone know of any?).

Hm.

From the Libro de Sent Sovi, translated in Santich, Barbara, The
Original Mediterranean Cuisine (Chicago: Chicago Review Press, 1995)

Angel's Food
If you want to eat the fresh curds, put the curds in the mortar and
pound with some good white sugar. And when pounded together, blend in
some rosewater or orangeflower water, and put it in bowls or dishes or
whatever you like; and serve it at table... And you can do the same with
fresh cheese, which is better, and it is called angel's food.
-- 
-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net 


Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 08:02:24 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Orange Flower Water, was Orange flavored
	wafers ( was Pomegranate and Onion Juice)
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

When I did my book on oranges, I didn't make an extensive study of orange flower water but I can say that it's used in English cookery and Buttes writes of it
in 1599

/Story for Table-talke./

The flowers of this plant are silver-coloured; and from them is
distilled a water surpassing all other in fragrancy and sweete smell.
The leaves are in colour like an Emeraud : The fruite like Golde. Whence
they are called /Aurantia /of /Aurum/, gold in Latine, and in Greek
/Chryfomela/, golden apples, In English properly and truly /Aurange/,
but we have both them and their name by tradition from the French. So
wee both speake and write it /Orenge/.

So keeping this in mind-- looking under "orenge" it can be found in

The seconde part of the Secretes of Master Alexis of Piemont in 1565
as in To make oile of Orengeflowers, and other swete flowers. TAke
freshe and cleane flowers of Orenges one pounde...

The Newe Iewell of Health from 1576 uses it in medicinal concoctions.

It also turns up in the 1598 A vvorlde of wordes, or Most copious, and
exact dictionarie in Italian and English, collected by Iohn Florio.

It turns  up in print under "orange" in such passages as

And as I suspected, euery potte had seuerall water, as it were, one with
Rose-water, another with water of Orange flowers, another of myrtle,
tender greene Lawrell leaues, el|d?r flowers, and diuers such lyke
sociable symples. And these boyling together, they did yeelde a most
pleasant and fragrant smell. p 55r
Hypnerotomachia. = The strife of loue in a dreame.
Colonna, Francesco, d. 1527. printed 1592.

Maison rustique, or The countrey farme? Compyled in the French tongue by
Charles Steuens, and Iohn Liebault, Doctors of Physicke.
[Estienne, died in  1564. It was translated and printed in England in a
number of editions including the 1616 edition that Markham worked on.]
also has numerous mentions.

By the 1650's at the same time that La Varenne was recommending it, it's
appearing in works like The Queens closet opened as in
Take a little Gum Dragant, and lay it in steep twelve hours, in Orange
flower water or Damask Rose-water...

Johnnae


Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 09:36:58 -0800
From: Lilinah <lilinah at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Orange Flower Water, was Orange flavored
	wafers ( was Pomegranate and Onion Juice)
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

I wrote:
> Strangely, I haven't seen recipes using orange flower water within
> SCA period (anyone know of any?).

Well, duh, i made the Bizcochos from Ruperto de Nola, which use
orange flower water. Silly me. And it makes sense that Spanish
recipes use orange flower water.
--
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita


Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 19:48:55 -0300
From: Suey <lordhunt at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Orange Flower Water
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Lilinah wrote:
> Strangely, I haven't seen recipes using orange flower water within
> SCA period (anyone know of any?). Yes, i know that oranges came a bit
> late, but the first recipe i recall seeing orange flower water is
> from the mid-17th C., in "Le Cuisinier Francois"

     As pointed out in Jadwiga Zajaczkowa's reply Sent Sovi I have also
found it used in the recipe for Sweet and Sour Grape Sauce. Rose water
is used in the Sweet and Sour Recipe and in Blancmange and Amidon. I did
not find orange water in the 13th C Anonymous  Hispano-Arab Manuscript
but did find some 10 recipes I think calling for rosewater. Five use it
to dissolve camphor, saffron, gum Arab and musk. One calls for it to be
sprinkled on dough while others sprinkle the dish with it. I do not see
that Nola used orange flower water but on innumerous occasions he does
call for orange juice.

     It does make sense that other flowers were distilled to flavor water
as we see with medieval salads.- If it grows in the garden use it.

Suey


Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 17:13:49 -0800
From: Lilinah <lilinah at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Orange Flower Water
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

From: Suey <lordhunt at gmail.com>
> I do not see
> that Nola used orange flower water but on innumerous occasions he does
> call for orange juice.

My memory error. The recipe is from Diego Granado's Libro de Arte de
Cozinha (1599). I'm afraid i don't have the original Spanish

BIZCOCHOS - Biscuits

Take twelve eggs, and remove the whites from four of them, and with a
little orange-flower water beat them a great deal, and grind a pound
of sugar, and cast it in little by little, always beating quickly,
and cast in flour, or powdered wheat starch, and beat it with force.
Having cast in the said flour, when they see that it is necessary,
and very fine, and the dough must remain white, just as for fritters,
and then cast it in your pots, and carry them to the oven, and when
half-cooked remove them, and dust them with well-ground sugar, and
cut them to your taste, and return them to the oven, and let them
finish baking a second time: and if they wish when they beat them,
cast in as much white wine as an eggshell, it will be good.

>     It does make sense that other flowers were distilled to flavor water
> as we see with medieval salads.- If it grows in the garden use it.

I don't like to jump to conclusions. It would be like the mayonnaise
dust-up recently on another SCA food list. Just because a culture has
the ingredients for something doesn't mean they made it. So i won't
assume that just because the Arabs have the technique and technology
for distilling, just because they distilled rosewater, i won't assume
they distilled orange flower water. Could they? Sure. Did they? I
don't know.
-- 
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita


Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 20:25:48 -0500
From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Orange Flower Water
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

The  Manual de mujeres en el cual se contienen muchas y diversas recetas muy
buenas appears to call for orange-flower water in a marchpane. I didn't
do the translation, though. Here's the original of the whole text:
http://www.geocities.com/karen_larsdatter/manual.htm
-- 
-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net 


Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 21:22:06 -0500
From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Orange Flower Water
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> I was just thinking: maybe people with distilling technology might
> concentrate more on getting their perfume essences and such from
> plants with aromatic blossoms which don't produce an edible fruit,
> versus one which does... this might help explain the comparative
> dearth of orange-flower-water recipes compared to those with rose  
> water.

Well, roses produce an edible fruit :) and we know they distilled those
by the cartload (literally).
The biggest difficulty I would see is that one needs such a LOT of any
given flower to do distillation. So, for instance, German, French and
English distillers and cooks would be unlikely to have access to enough
orange-flowers to distill them, while in Spain one certainly might have
access to enough of same.

We do know that many 16th century texts that covered distillation gave
instructions for distilling waters from whatever flower one chooses.
Unfortunately I don't know enough Spanish to be reading the Spanish
distillation manuals or the Italian to confirm that they were making
orange-flower water; I have to go by other people's translations.
-- 
-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net 


Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 21:34:05 -0500
From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Orange Flower Water
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise wrote:

> The  Manual de mujeres en el cual se contienen muchas y diversas recetas muy
> buenas appears to call for orange-flower water in a marchpane. I didn't
> do the translation, though. Here;s the original of the whole text:
> http://www.geocities.com/karen_larsdatter/manual.htm

The original Spanish is:

Receta para mazapanes
Tanto az?car como almendras. Poner el az?car al fuego con agua de
azahar. Y desque haya dado dos o tres hervores, bajarlo y clarificarlo
con su clara de huevo. Y tornarlo luego a cocer hasta que se pare como
miel; y bajarlo y dejarlo resfriar. Y como est? fr?o, echar las
almendras majadas dentro. Y antes que se acabe de resfriar, amasarlo
todo muy bien. Y hacer los mazapanes, y ponerles por encima su cara de
az?car molido y llevarlos al horno.
http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/servlet/SirveObras/ 
01371074322363763092257/p0000001.htm#2

Azahar is the word for orange blossom.  There are a number of recipes in
the Manual de Mugeres which call for orange-flower water.  Many of them
are perfumes and cosmetics, but there's a recipe for alcorzas (a
confection) and an orange-flower conserve.
-- 
Brighid ni Chiarain
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom


Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 07:38:30 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Orange Flower Water, was Orange flavored
	wafers ( was Pomegranate and Onion Juice)
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

As mentioned yesterday, Alessio  contains information on
Orange flower water and speaks about distilling it.
"The original volume was printed in Italy in 1555. By the year 1600, at
least seventy editions had been published, and it could be read not only
in the original Italian, but also in Latin, French, English, German,
Dutch, Spanish, and Polish."
My original article on Alessio was published in Tournaments illuminated
a few years back.
Once it's in Alessio, the knowledge is out there throughout Europe.
I suspect that C. Anne Wilson's new book
*Water of Life: A History of Wine-distilling and Spirits from 500 BC to
AD 2000* will probably go into the subject.

Johnnae

> So keeping this in mind-- looking under "orenge" it can be found in
> The seconde part of the Secretes of Master Alexis of Piemont in 1565
> as in To make oile of Orengeflowers, and other swete flowers. TAke
> freshe and cleane flowers of Orenges one pounde...
>
> Johnnae


Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 16:48:44 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Shelf life for Rosewater, Orange flower water

Floral waters have an "official" shelf life of 1 to 2 years.  In practice, 
they can last ten or more years, as long as they haven't turned into a 
science project.  The only way to know is open it and check the potency.

Bear

<<< I have an opened, nearly full bottle of Rosewater and an upopened
bottle of Orange flower water, that are each several years old.   I
just saw an interesting modern recipe that called for orange flower
water.  I wonder if I can use it or should toss them both.  Any idea
what the shelf life is?

http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2014/08/orange-almond-tray-bake-from-the-ginger-white-cookbook.html

Ranvaig >>>


Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 18:54:00 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
From: <lilinah at earthlink.net>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Shelf life for Rosewater, Orange flower water

Bear wrote:
<<< Floral waters have an "official" shelf life of 1 to 2 years. In practice, 
they can last ten or more years, as long as they haven't turned into a 
science project. The only way to know is open it and check the potency. >>>

I have a few bottles that are older than 2 years and have been opened. They do last longer if kept in a cool, dark place - not over the stove, not in a spot where sun hits it.

I have to confess i'm often shocked when i see people's herb and spice racks over or next to their stove. Heat causes deterioration by volatilizing fragrant and flavorful oils. I feel the same about a bottle of oil kept on or next to the stove, since heat promotes oxidation, and eventually - in that situation, fairly quickly - rancidity.

Urtatim

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	orng-flwr-wtr-msg	9 of 9