mint-msg – 1/30/08
The growing and use of the mint plant in period.
NOTE: See also the files: herbs-msg, Herbs-Sm-Grdn-art, herb-uses-msg, herbs-cooking-msg p-herbals-msg, sumac-msg, sassafras-msg, jalabs-msg, tea-msg, salads-msg, Mouthwash-art, za-atar-msg.
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NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).
Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:36:52 -0500 (EST)
From: Robin Carrollmann <harper at idt.net>
Subject: Re: SC - General rant (started out as coffee/tea, then was rose sekanjabin)
On Sat, 31 Jan 1998, Woeller D wrote:
> p.s. If you want to make the mint version,you can often buy mint at
> hispanic groceries, cheap. I got two handful -sized bags for 80 cents.
I don't recall the price, but I get mint inexpensively at Indian
grocery stores (also a good source for cheap spices and nuts). I use
dried mint for sekanjubin. Works just fine.
Brighid ni Chairain (mka Robin Carroll-Mann)
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 19:12:10 EDT
From: Peldyn at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - za'atar
Zatar
Thymbra spicata
Zatar tastes like hearty thyme and is famous in Arabic and North African
cooking.
A low growing shrub of the mint family.
Peldyn
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:46:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Samrah <auntie_samrah at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Danelaw feast: peppermint
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
otsisto <otsisto at socket.net> wrote:
[severly snipped]
> *Mints - you may want to exclude Peppermint as I believe that it is a
> late period hybrid. A hybrid of marshmint and spearmint.
I don't believe there is a reason to particularly omit peppermint.
Until the 17th century all mints were used in the same way, with little
attempt to differentiate between them. This could be because if you
plant two mints together, they hybridize themselves extremely easily,
and it is in fact difficult to keep the varieties true unless you
separate them severely (like in pots ;o) I had lots of spear/pepper
before I learned this.
> From Lawless, in the Encyclopedia of Essential Oils, ISBN
> 1-852030-311-5, p.131:
"Originally a cultivated hybrid between M. viridis [I don't believe
this is spearmint, M. spicata. I don't have the common name easily.]
and M. acquatica, known to have been propagated from before the
seventeenth century in England....
Mints have been cultivated since ancient times in China & Japan. In
Egypt evidence of a type of peppermint has been found in tombs dating
from 1000 B.C...."
The above mentions the first record of deliberate propagation in
England. Trust me if those two mints were anywhere near each other,
they could have hybridized themselves. Mints love to do that sort of
thing. So, if peppermint works better in some of your dishes, I
wouldn't hesitate.
Spearmint was used by the ancient Greeks in their bathwaters (same
source, p. 132), and it can be easier to find commercially grown, so if
it works for you charge on ahead. I just don't want peppermint to get
a bum reputation for being late period unnecessarily when it in all
probability it has been around very early on.
Samrah, Mint Enthusiast
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 01:24:31 -0500
From: "otsisto" <otsisto at socket.net>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Danelaw feast: peppermint
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
What I was saying before I found different (see other email aka "a fool and
her mintality) is that peppermint may not have existed until late period and
therefore would not have been used in the middle ages.
Mentha Viridis = spearmint
http://medherb.com/cook/html/MENTHA_VIRIDIS.htm
Mentha aquatica = water mint = marsh mint = bergamot
http://www.desert-tropicals.com/Plants/Lamiaceae/Mentha_citrata.html
I love mint. I can taste the difference between peppermint and spearmint and
usually other mints.
In mundane recipies I usually try to make a recipe that just says mint,
twice. One with peppermint and one with spearmint to see if there is a
difference in taste.
Cool Lamiaceae site.
http://www.desert-tropicals.com/Plants/Lamiaceae/Lamiaceae.html
Lyse
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 14:06:41 -0500
From: "Radei Drchevich" <radei at moscowmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] RE: peppermint
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Mint flowers are often used in herbal teas, and in salads. they are
completely edible, and add colour to anything. use it the same as the
rest of the plant.
I have 20 square feet of mint, and it comes back every year. I use lots of
it.
radei
----- Original Message -----
From: elisabetta at klotz.org
> Thanks for the site. This is the first year I tried planting mint,
> and I have 2 pots--one of spearmint and one of peppermint.
>
> But I was wondering what that flower was doing growing out of the peppermint,
> and if I should pick it or not.
> So what do I do with the flowers? Can I cook with them or dry them,
> or just let them bloom and die?
>
> Elisabetta
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:16:29 -0400
From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] RE: peppermint
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Elisabetta said:
> So what do I do with the flowers? Can I cook with them or dry them, or
> just let them bloom and die?
I'd suggest pinching them off and drying them, or making fritters of
them. Rosemary in particular is one of the herbs whose flowers were
considered very desirable in period, but I think peppermint flowers
would be nice frittered too.
--
-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 15:03:59 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] mint water
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Since mint derives from Old German probably from the Latin, menta, I would
say that mint was definitely known in Europe in the Middle Ages. There are
references to mint in Cato, Pliny and Martial. It is also very likely that
the Legions brought mint to England. Because of the relative strength of
flavor, peppermint would probably be used in medicines, while spearmint
would likely be used as a flavoring agent in salads, vegetable dishes and on
meats.
While I don't have any recipes to hand, to quote Jonh Gerard, "Mentha.
Mints. Garden Mint taken in meat or drinke warmeth and strengtheneth
the stomacke... and causeth good digestion."
Bear
> 1) Did mint grow in medieval Europe? I'm assuming it did, but wanted
> to verify. Because when I think of foods with mint, I think more of
> the Middle East than Europe.
>
> 2) If mint was used in medieval European dishes, how was it generally
> used? As decorative sprigs? Or added as the above mint water? Or
> added along with a mix of other fresh herbs?
>
> Stefan
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 15:59:00 -0500
From: "Pat Griffin" <ldyannedubosc at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] mint water
To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
It was certainly used in 14th century England. The following is from Forme
of Curye as shown on the Project Gutenburg site at www.gutenberg.org.
ERBOLATES [1]. XX.VIII. XII.
Take parsel, myntes [2], sauerey, & sauge, tansey, veruayn, clarry,
rewe, ditayn, fenel, southrenwode, hewe hem & grinde hem smale, medle
hem up with Ayrenn. do butter in a trape. & do ?e fars ?erto. & bake
it & messe it forth.
[1] Erbolat, i.e. Herbolade, a confection of herbs.
[2] myntes, mint.
Lady Anne du Bosc
Known as Mordonna The Cook
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 22:46:46 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] mint questions was mint water
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Stefan li Rous wrote:
> 1) Did mint grow in medieval Europe? I'm assuming it did, but wanted
> to verify. Because when I think of foods with mint, I think more of
> the Middle East than Europe.
Yes
> 2) If mint was used in medieval European dishes, how was it generally
> used? As decorative sprigs? Or added as the above mint water? Or
> added along with a mix of other fresh herbs?
Easiest way to quickly find uses of mint would be to use something like this rather handy database of recipes at Medieval Cookery.com where one can search on mint and turn up 100 or so recipes calling for it.
http://www.medievalcookery.com/cgi-bin/search.pl?term=mint&;file=all
Johnnae
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 22:58:45 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Mint Water
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
> Terry Decker wrote:
>> Since mint derives from Old German probably from the Latin, menta, . .
>> .likely that the Legions brought mint to England.
> My earliest reference to mint is in the Bible: Luke 11:42 "But woe to
> you Pharisees! for you tithe mint and rue and every herb, but you bypass
> justice and the love of God." As it is so commonly recorded,
> henceforth, not only by Pliny and Apicius but elsewhere I would hesitate
> to state that the Romans took it anywhere. I think it was just there
> throughout Europe.
> Suey
The question was specifically about mint in Medieval Europe, so the biblical
reference has no particular validity in the response. The writings of the
Romans and the etymology of the word mint suggest that it was known in
Medieval Europe, which has been confirmed by a recipe calling for it.
I did say it was likely that the Romans brought the plant to England. You
seem to assume that I meant that the Romans spread it all over the Empire,
which was not what was stated. The Gospel of Luke is presumably a late-1st
Century text. Cato, who mentions mint in his writings, predates Luke by
almost 300 years. Pliny and Martial are contemporaneous with Luke. And, I
don't recall a mention of mint in Apicius, but I haven't checked as the text
is either 1st or 5th Century, depending on your opinions of the dates. The
facts presented here can not confirm or deny whether the Romans spread mint
over the Empire.
I suspect that mint in its many species and varieties was ubiquitous in the
Mediterranean Basin in Antiquity and that it's use was not confined to one
time, one culture, or one place. The derivation of mint from the Latin
suggests that the use, if not the plant, was introduced to the Germanic
tribes by the Romans, but without more evidence, that is an unproven
contention. Based on the physical isolation of the British Isles, the
introduction of other food stuffs by the Romans, and a lack of references to
mint prior to the Romans, the introduction of mint to England by way
of the Legions is a reasonable conjecture.
Bear
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 10:21:12 -0400
From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] mint water
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
> 1) Did mint grow in medieval Europe? I'm assuming it did, but wanted
> to verify. Because when I think of foods with mint, I think more of
> the Middle East than Europe.
Yes. Not only is it mentioned in Walafrid Strabo's 9th century poem
_Hortulus_ but Strabo specifically says that its varieties are "as many
as the sparks that fly from the forge of Vulcan..."
> 2) If mint was used in medieval European dishes, how was it generally
> used? As decorative sprigs? Or added as the above mint water? Or
> added along with a mix of other fresh herbs?
It was used in the ways that other fresh herbs were used. It appears in
cooked and uncooked salads and as a pot herb.
--
-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 10:32:56 -0400
From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] mint water
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
> Since mint derives from Old German probably from the Latin, menta, I would
> say that mint was definitely known in Europe in the Middle Ages. There are
> references to mint in Cato, Pliny and Martial. It is also very likely that
> the Legions brought mint to England. Because of the relative strength of
> flavor, peppermint would probably be used in medicines, while spearmint
> would likely be used as a flavoring agent in salads, vegetable dishes and on
> meats.
I'd need to check out C. Anne Wilson's text, but I think mint probably
already existed in England before the Legions came-- most of the plants
we think of as being brought to England by the Legions are annuals
and/or not cold hardy and so require specific cultivation. Certainly,
there was plenty of traffic to England before the Legions from
mint-growing areas. Unfortunately, mint usually spreads by runners,
rather than seed, thus leaving less of a trace in the archaeobotanical
record, though the pollen may have been preserved and so there may be
some studies that tell us whether it can be documented in England to
pre-Latin times. Both spear- and peppermint are relatively modern
cultivars, though similar mints would have been available.
Gernot Katzer says this about the origins of peppermint:
"Peppermint is a (usual sterile) hybrid from water mint (M. aquatica)
and spearmint (M. spicata). It is found sometimes wild in Central and
Southern Europe, but was probably first put to human use in England,
whence its cultivation spread to the European continent and Africa;
today, Northern Africa is a main cultivation area.
Other mint species are indigenous to Europe and Asia, and some are used
since millennia. Cultivars in tropical Asia always derive from field
mint and are, therefore, botanically not closely related to European
peppermint, although they come close to peppermint in their culinary
value. Mints from Western and Central Asia, however, are comparable not
to peppermint but to horsemint and applemint."
--
-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 10:42:10 -0400
From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] mint water
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Oh, this is the OED on the origin of the word Mint, meaning the plant:
"Cognate with Middle Dutch minte, Old Saxon minta (Middle Low German
minte), Old High German minza (Middle High German minze, minz, German
Minze) < classical Latin menta, mentha, prob. borrowed, like ancient
Greek {mu}{giacu}{nu}{theta}{eta} (in Hellenistic Greek also
{mu}{giacu}{nu}{theta}{omicron}{fsigma}), from an unidentified source.
Cf. Middle Dutch munte, muynte, muente (Dutch munt), Old High German
munza (German M?nze) which show unexplained variation in the root vowel.
The form mente (cf. Middle Dutch mente) may perh. be influenced by
Anglo-Norman, Old French mente (French menthe).] "
In other words, they suggest that the word in both German, Latin, and
Greek are borrowings from an earlier source...
--
-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 10:52:48 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Romans + Mint
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
> Why would it be likely the Romans brought mint to England?
> Why could mint not have been indigenous?
>
> Cealian
Maggie Campbell-Culver's The Origin of Plants
lists it as:
"Mentha spp. Mint. Although several species, including Pennyroyal,
are native, some of the stronger-flavoured species arrived from S.
Europe with the Romans; these include M. spicata (Spearmint).
The herb also appeared on Aelfric's list." p15
Johnnae
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 14:33:30 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Romans + Mint
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
> Why would it be likely the Romans brought mint to England?
> Why could mint not have been indigenous?
>
> Cealian
M. spicata (spearmint) is indigenious to the Mediterranean basin. It is not
indigenious to Northern Europe. Therefore, it would need to be imported
into the British Isles by accident or design. While it might have been
introduced by one of the various tribes that migrated there or by Mycenaean
or Carthaginian tin traders, the general opinion is that it was the Romans
who held the territory for around five centuries and are known to have
introduced a number of other plants to the Isles.
Bear
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 14:46:54 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] mint water
To: <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>, "Cooks within the SCA"
<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
The earliest references to mint of which I am aware are in Mycenaean and,
according to one source, appear to be in common use in the earliest
writings. This would place the knowledge of mint in Pelloponnesus between
1600 and 1200 BCE. Since Mycenaean is a direct ancestor of Hellenic Greek,
it is probably the "earlier source" suggested.
Bear
> Oh, this is the OED on the origin of the word Mint, meaning the plant:
>
> "Cognate with Middle Dutch minte, Old Saxon minta (Middle Low German
> minte), Old High German minza (Middle High German minze, minz, German
> Minze) < classical Latin menta, mentha, prob. borrowed, like ancient
> Greek {mu}{giacu}{nu}{theta}{eta} (in Hellenistic Greek also
> {mu}{giacu}{nu}{theta}{omicron}{fsigma}), from an unidentified source.
> Cf. Middle Dutch munte, muynte, muente (Dutch munt), Old High German
> munza (German M?nze) which show unexplained variation in the root
> vowel.
> The form mente (cf. Middle Dutch mente) may perh. be influenced by
> Anglo-Norman, Old French mente (French menthe).] "
>
> In other words, they suggest that the word in both German, Latin, and
> Greek are borrowings from an earlier source...
> --
> -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 16:37:10 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Romans + Mint
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
> Terry Decker wrote:
>> The earliest references to mint of which I am aware are in Mycenaean and,
>> according to one source, appear to be in common use in the earliest
>> writings. This would place the knowledge of mint in Pelloponnesus between
>> 1600 and 1200 BCE. Since Mycenaean is a direct ancestor of Hellenic
>> Greek, it is probably the "earlier source" suggested.
>>
>> Bear
>>
> Where did you find that?
> Suey
Tablets MY Ge 602-608, recovered in 1954 from the House of the Sphinxes,
list some of the common spices including mint. I encountered the
information in the English abstract of a Polish journal a few years ago.
There is also at least one journal article on the contents of the tablets in
JSTOR. Unfortunately I don't read Polish and I don't have access to JSTOR
articles.
Gernot Katzer makes reference to the Mycenaean uasge at:
http://www.uni-graz.at/~katzer/engl/Ment_pip.html
And the word shows up in a Linear B glossary at:
http://www.geocities.com/kurogr/linearb.pdf
You can also come across references to a gruel of meal, water and mint used
in the Eleusinian mysteries, but I don't have any specific references that
tie that to the Mycenaean form of the mysteries.
Bear
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 12:51:51 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Coloring Comfits Green
To: "mk-cooks at midrealm.org" <mk-cooks at midrealm.org>, Cooks within the
SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Sounds interesting. What would happen with fresh mint I wonder?
My mint is flourishing and taking over again.
There's a recipe I've tried -- it's a good summer recipe so I'll post
it.
To Make Mint Cakes
Take a pound of sugar finely beaten, & put to it 3 or 4
spoonfuls of mint water, & boyle it up to a candy. then
take some mint & shred it small & put it to yr candy
and drop it as you did the rose cakes, & set them in ye
sun or a stove to dry.
Recipe 140. >From the Tudor-Jacobean manuscript known as /A Booke of
Sweetmeats/ as
found in */Martha Washington?s Booke of Cookery/*. Edited with
introduction and commentary by Karen Hess. New York: Columbia University
Press, 1981. The manuscript is dated 1580-1625.
I've done this one before and find that it varies a great deal
depending how ground up the mint leaves are when shredded. You can get
specks of green to a very light color just by using the shredded mint.
Johnna
Elise Fleming wrote:
> Greetings! I don't know if you have been reading the Tudor Cook blog
> recently but they showed pictures of the parsley and sugar syrup that they
> made in their experiment to make green comfits. There were visible clumps
> of green in the clear syrup. My reaction was that they didn't strain out
> the parsley sediment so this morning I decided to try some green comfits,
> using my 55-charge caraway comfits as the base.
[see the rest of Alys' message in the comfits-msg file -Stefan]
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 10:51:22 -0400
From: devra at aol.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] mint water revisited
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
A few weeks ago I asked what use we had for mint water (similar to
rose & orange water) when I discovered it in a nuts & candy store in
Manhattan. Now I am glad to say that I find it in a recipe for 'mint
cakes' which sound like a sugar candy, in the Karen Hess edition of
'Martha Washington's Cooke Book'. Just thought I'd mention this...
Devra
<the end>