gums-resins-msg – 5/24/15 Gums and resins used in period and how they were used. Modern sources. Camphor, myrrh, frankinsence, mastic, Gum tragacanth. NOTE: See also the files: spices-msg, herbs-cooking-msg, p-herbals-msg, amber-msg, amber-buying-art, spice-mixes-msg, wood-finishes-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: fp458 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Elise A. Fleming) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Plate that you can ea Date: 10 Dec 1994 10:02:03 GMT Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA) Gum tragacanth, cheapest source, is Penn Herb. Toll free number is 1-800-523-9971 (presumably for orders over $15). For orders under $15, for information, or if you're calling from the 215 area code it's 215-925-3336. Tragacanth gum is #630. It comes in powder form. One ounce is $2.35, much cheaper than the price from Sweet Celebrations in Minneapolis. Four ounces is $7.25 and one pound is $27.50. There is a shipping charge. Penn Herb sells all other kinds of herbs and herbal items. They say they are "Pennsylvania's Largest Medicinal Herb House." Elise/Alys Katharine Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:19:57 -0600 (MDT) From: Mary Morman Subject: SC - Gum Tragacanth I was pleased to find gum tragacanth being sold by the very reputable Dragonmarsh at Worldcon over Labor Day. You can contact them at: DragonMarsh [ Stefan 9/9/07 - here is info for buying stuff at DragonMarsh. The writer lists them at 6th street. They have moved around the corner. new info- DragonMarsh 3643 University Ave. Riverside, CA 92501 951 276-1116 www.dragonmarsh.com ] Elaina Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 16:26:10 -0500 (CDT) From: alysk at ix.netcom.com (Elise Fleming ) Subject: SC - Gums Arabic and Tragacanth Greetings! (Drat digest format where it's harder to quote from posts!) Someone mentioned getting gum arabic and thought other names for it were gum tragacanth, gum dragon, etc. No, and no. Gum arabic isn't gum tragacanth. While both are used in cookery, gum tragacanth's primary use in period seems to have been in making sugar paste (modern day gum paste). You can't substitute gum arabic for gum tragacanth. I would hypothesize that the reverse would also be true, that one shouldn't substitute gum tragacanth for gum arabic. One of tragacanth's uses is as a strengthener. Arabic has been used to mix with colorants so that one can paint them onto foods or confections. When using one or the other, see what the recipe says, then use that one. I've been in the presence of sugar paste made with gum arabic. 'Tain't the same thing! Alys Katharine Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 21:32:07 EST From: LrdRas Subject: Re: SC - camphor rsve60 at email.sps.mot.com writes: << What *is* camphor? I thought it was a petroleum product. How would they have produced it in the Middle Ages? How else was it used in the Middle Ages? Stefan li Rous >> What is camphor? Camphor is a gum resin produced by the camphor tree. The petroleum based product you refer to is "Camphor Oil" .....a modern medicinal dating back to the 19th century CE used to reduce the symptoms of upper respiratory distress during cold and flu season especially on young children. It is applied to the chest area and the rising fumes make breathing easier. It is oftentimes more effective than others forms of medicine such as antihistamines. Ras Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 03:51:32 +0000 From: James and/or Nancy Gilly Subject: Re: SC - camphor At 21:59 25-1-98 +0000, Stefan li Rous wrote: >What *is* camphor? I thought it was a petroleum product. How would >they have produced it in the Middle Ages? How else was it used in >the Middle Ages? Says the *Britannica*: camphor, an organic compound of penetrating, somewhat musty aroma, used for many centuries as a component of incense and as a medicinal. Modern uses of camphor have been as a plasticizer for cellulose nitrate and as an insect repellent, particularly for moths. The molecular formula is C10H16O [C-ten H-sixteen O]. Camphor occurs in the camphot laurel, *Cinnamomum camphora*, common in China, Taiwan, and Japan.... (*Encyclopaedia Britannica*, 15th edition, Vol II, p 492. Copyright 1977 by Encyclopaedia Britannica, Inc.) Alasdair mac Iain Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 08:58:41 -0600 (CST) From: jeffrey s heilveil Subject: Re: SC - camphor Camphor is the root of the camphry plant, ground. It can be mixed with alcohol to make a tincture, and then mixed with a thickner to create an ointment. It is a cheap and easy way to teach elementary herbalism, and I made it a long time ago in an intro Botany course. Bogdan Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 21:15:35 EST From: LrdRas Subject: Re: SC - spices vs. herbs? acrouss at gte.net writes: << frankincense and myrrh >> IIRC< both are plant products. Frankincense is the resin of an aromatic Asian or African tree and myrrh is a fragrant gummy substance with a bitter taste which is used in medicines, perfumes and incense in modern times. There are period Middle Eastern recipes which use it as a food ingredient. It is obtained from a shrub that grows in Arabia and East Africa. I do not have my plant manuals at hand right now but will look up the scientific names if you want them.. Ras Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:03:59 -0800 From: david friedman Subject: SC - Mastic (was: My entry to Queen's Prize Tourney) At 8:08 PM -0500 3/29/98, Lady Beatrix of Tanet wrote: >Many Thanks, but I have one question: What is Mastic? Mastic or gum mastic is a resin used as a seasoning in Islamic cooking; you use it in very small quantities, say 1/16 teaspoon per 1 or two pounds of meat. The taste suggests turpentine to us. In very small quantities it adds an interesting tang to a dish, but it doesn't take much to make the dish inedible. To find it, try a Middle Easter, Iranian, or Indian grocery store, or a specialty spice place. It looks like little pale yellowish/tannish blobs. Elizabeth/Betty Cook [Submitted by: "Philippa Alderton" ] From: Gaylin Walli To: herbalist at Ansteorra.ORG Subject: Re: HERB - Resins Date: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 2:19 PM Raisya asked: >I bought frankinsence and myrrh at Pennsic this year, but didn't have a chance >to label them immediately, and now I've forgotten which is which. Does anyone >here know? One is yellow, the shade of butter, the other is brownish, the >color of a darkish honey. I think the yellow is frankinsence and the brown is >myrrh, but I'm not sure. The red-brown one is the myrrh. The yellow one is the frankinsence. References: "[Myrrh] flows as a pale yellow liquid, but hardens to a reddish-brown mass, being found in commerce in tears of many sizes, the average being that of a walnut." (http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/m/myrrh-66.html) "When the milk-like juice which exudes has hardened by exposure to the air, the incision is deepened. In about three months the [Frankincense] resin has attained the required degree of consistency, hardening into yellowish 'tears.'" (http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/f/franki31.html) Jasmine Jasmine de Cordoba, Midrealm, g.walli at infoengine.com [Submitted by: "Philippa Alderton" ] From: N.D.Wederstrandt To: herbalist at Ansteorra.ORG Subject: Re: HERB - Resins Date: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 4:10 PM Not necessarily. Different grades of frankincense are different colors. Ethiopean frankincense is a very bright golden yellow and is getting harder to find because the wars over in the Middle East have caused the groves to be burnt. Arabian frankincense is a mixture and can range from dull gold with bright yellow bits to darkish brown.... Indian frankincense is the darkest and is the most common.... It often is cut with other types of resins. I have an Organic Chemistry Manual that explains the types but it is at home and this week I'm been off list dealing with Laurel's Prize Tourney. The difference I have always found is that myrrh is darker and has a very bitter taste to it. Frankincense is less bitter and even the dark is not as dark as myrrh. Smell wise - myrrh always has a bitter edge to it. BTW, ethiopean has the cleanest and brightest scent to it....It is also the prettiest. Clare [Submitted to the Florilegium by: "Philippa Alderton" ] From: Gaylin Walli To: herbalist at Ansteorra.ORG Subject: Re: HERB - 'syropp of ela campane' Date: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 9:29 AM Phlip asked: >Any ideas, folks? This is how I would look at it. 'syropp of ela campane' would probably be a syrup of the plant elecampane, often called Elfwort or Scabwort. The botanical of this plant is Inula helenium (L.) I think. One of the major constituents of the plant is the volitale oil "helenin" which is sometimes called "elecampane camphor." Camphor, throughout history, has been used to treat the symptoms of any of the numerous kinds of arthritis, including rheumatoid arthritis. An excellent write-up on Elecampane can be found in M. Grieve's (OOP) herbal online at http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/e/elecam07.html and this writeup includes pointers to period sources (including Gerard, Culpepper, and others) which may be of use to the SCAdian or recreator in tracking down the origins of the syrup's creation. Jasmine Jasmine de Cordoba, Midrealm, g.walli at infoengine.com Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 16:41:50 -0600 (CST) From: alysk at ix.netcom.com (Elise Fleming) Subject: SC - Re: Recipe from Murrell Lucretzia wrote: >By Gum-dragon I would say they mean Dragonsblood, which is today and >has been since ancient times, an East Indian shrub known as Dracoena >draco, and the pigment is the dried resin sap of the plant. I disagree. Gum-dragon is gum tragacanth in modern life, and is used in sugar paste recipes as part of the ingredients. It is identified as "a gum obtained from various Asian or Easst European leguminous plants (genus Astragalus, esp. A. gummifer) that swells in water and is used in the arts and in pharmacy." It is not a pigment and has no coloring of its own. In modern gum paste, substitutions for gum tragacanth are used such as gum karaya, which is cheaper, but has a slight pinkish cast. Alys Katharine Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 11:48:45 -0500 From: Roberta R Comstock To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Mastic On Sat, 11 Sep 1999 18:35:30 -0500 (CDT) writes: >Does anyone have the botanical name for the "mastic" bush? Just >currious... > >Timothy Mastic is an aromatic resin obtained from a small anacardiaceous evergreen tree, _Pistacia Lentiscus_, native to the Mediterranean region: used in making varnish. (Random House College Dictionary) This plant family is the same one that includes pistacio nuts, cashews, sumaca and poison ivy. Hertha Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 00:34:50 -0300 From: dwilson at nbnet.nb.ca (dwilson) To: Subject: Re: Mastic > Does anyone have the botanical name for the "mastic" bush? Just currious... > Timothy Pistacia lentiscus. And a good small article at http://www.tau.ac.il/~melros/Questions/Hebrew.html Sheepstealer Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 10:19:18 EST From: Seton1355 at aol.com Subject: SC - MASTIC Well, one positive aspect to this whole bruhaha in Trimaris about feasting is that it has spured me on to start looking up recipes again. I recently asked what *mastic* is. Well, I found the answer! Phillipa Seton THE FOOD OF THE WESTERN WORLD An Encyclopedia of Food from North America and Europe. Theodora FitzGibbon Quadrangle / New York Times Book Co. 1976 MASTIC (Pistacia lentiscus) An evergreen resinous shrub native to Southern Europe, the sap of which is used as a culinary flavoring. .... The gum tastes fairly like liquorice, is obtained by making cuts into the tree bark. Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:47:09 -0600 From: david friedman Subject: RE: SC - REC: BAID MASUS Phillipa Seton said > For tonight's supper I made **Baid Masus** from His Grace's Miscellany. I > had never made it before. It was delicious! A very straight forward recipe > and easy to make. I didn't have any *mastic* however. (I hope everyone got > my previous post on mastic - a liquorice flavored sap) I believe the information you posted said that mastic was the sap, and the bark was liquorice flavored. Mastic doesn't taste in the least like liquorice. More like turpentine (think retsina for a similar effect in something consumable), which is why we use it in very small quantities. David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 01:09:03 -0500 From: Stefan li Rous To: SCA-Cooks maillist , SCA-Arts maillist Subject: Frankincense For those interested in learning more about the spice Frankincense, and some of its history you might want to read this article that just appeared in the May/June 2000 issue of "Aramco World" "Scents of Place: Frankincense in Oman" by Tim Mackintosh-Smith This journal is free and I highly reccomend it for those with an interest in the Arab world. Since I've been subscribing there have been a number of articles that whole or in part discuss the time period that the SCA covers. Before reading this I was really only aware of frankincense as being one of the gifts given to the christ child in the Christian nativity story. This article seems to be saying that it was more popular among the Romans but then interest in it wained after Rome fell, although it never disappeared entirely. Does anyone have any referances to frankincense being used in medieval foods or drinks? Other uses such as incense? -- Lord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas stefan at texas.net From: "Elise Fleming" To: Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 11:59:07 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Gum Tragacanth Sources Greetings. If my old memory works right, it seems there was a discussion that gum tragacanth wasn't "findable" in the US anymore. Master Aiden, from my local group, found two sources for me right away and here they are for you. http://www.bakingshop.com/sugarcraft/gum.htm http://beryls.safeshopper.com/142/cat142.htm?772 He noted: "I've also discovered that it's also used for leatherworking, incense, bookbinding, and making pastels, curious..." The "Beryl's" site has a pound of gum dragon for $30, plus shipping and handling. This corresponds well to the price some 10 years ago of $30 which included $5 shipping/handling from Penn Herb, which apparantly no longer carries gum tragacanth. If you want to make period sugarpaste, you need this stuff. They also sell it in smaller quantities. Alys Katharine From: jenne at fiedlerfamily.net Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 17:02:14 -0400 (EDT) To: Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] online glossary > Benzoin Styrax Benzoin, a tree resin. Now available as powdered resin and a tincture. A perfume fixative. AKA gum benzoin, benjamin. OED: 1. A dry and brittle resinous substance, with a fragrant odour and slightly aromatic taste, obtained from the Styrax benzoin, a tree of Sumatra, Java, etc. It is used in the preparation of benzoic acid, in medicine, and extensively in perfumery. For scientific distinction it is now termed gum benzoin. Also called by popular corruption BENJAMIN. 1558 WARDE Alexis' Secr. (1568) 3a, An unce of Bengewine. 1562 TURNER Herbal II. 30b, Belzoin or Benzoin is the rosin of a tree. 1601 HOLLAND Pliny I. 480 The herbe..(which beareth the gum Benjoine) grew there first. 1616 BULLOKAR, Benzwine, a sweet smelling gumme. 1616 SURFL. & MARKH. Countr. Farm 484 Your hard gums, such as is frankincense, benjouin..and waxe. 1653 WALTON Angler (Arb.) 42 There is an herb Benione, which..makes him (the Otter) to avoid that place. 1658 ROWLAND Mouffet's Theat. Ins. 1000 Asa dulcis, Wine and Honey, or Benzoin dissolved in warm water. 1671 GREW Anat. Plants I. 17 Benzoine, by Distillation [yieldeth] Oyl; by Vstion, white Flowers. 1834 J. GRIFFIN Chem. Recr. 117 Gum benzoin (or benjamin) is a prime constituent of fumigating pastiles. 1875 JEVONS Money vii. 28 Cubes of benzoin, gum or beeswax..are other peculiar forms of currency. -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 20:22:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Philippa Alderton Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Mastic for Stefan. To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org OK, Stefan, I've been looking through my cookbooks, as I promised, and here we go. From Cariadoc's Mexcellany, the cooking section, the following recipes contain mastic: Burinya Tuffahiya Madira Raihaniya Rutabiya Labaniya A Baghdad Cookery Book Sour dishes Batd Masus Zirbaj Nirbaj Hisrimiya Halawiya Rummaniya Sumaqiya Limuwiya Mamquriya Hubaishiya Mishmishiya Narenjiya Narsirk Milk dishes Madira Mujazza'a Ukaike Masliya Plain dishes Isfankiya Rukhamiya Aruz Mufalfal Itriya Muhallibiya Fried and Dry dishes Anbariya Mishmishiya Safarjaliya Narenjiya Fahtiya Mudaqqaqat Hamida Simple and sweet dishes (on these, the "usual" in parentheses following means that the recipe said "the usual seasonings", and that similar recipes preceding and following all had mastic in them. I didn't include any saying usual seasonings otherwise.) Burniya Basaliya Raihaniya Nurjisiya Nujumiya (usual) Manbusha Madfuna (usual) Buraniya al-Qar Khudairiya Makhfiya Dinariya Rutabiya Mugarressa Harisa al-Araz Mudaqqaqat Sadhija The last was simply titled "Chicken dishes" and included a base spice blend, which included mastic, and then discussed several variations. Harisa and baked dishes Harisa (usual) Kabis Sukhtar (or Kibi) Tafshil Akar Fried, soused and turned dishes, pies, etc Baid Masus (there were several dishes which stated "usual seasonings " but I wasn't absolutely sure they included mastic.) Fish Dishes (fresh fish) Samak Mushwa Samak Maqlu (usual- these were the only two, but the second was a variant of the first). There was no Mastic used in the salted fish dishes, nor in the strictly grain/vegetable dishes. As you can see, mastic is quite common in Arabic cooking. Most of the dishes included red meat, and mastic was left out of most of the red meat/chicken combos, but did appear in the plain chicken variations (above) I found no mastic in Platina, Anthimus, or Sabina. Sabina did include mace, but by context, I think it actually meant mace, beause the phrase was "nutmeg and mace" in most cases. Elizabeth, would you mind checking your translation of "Fait de Cuisine" to see if the original might have meant mastic instead of mace in any cases? I ask, because I don't have access to the original to check as I do with Sabina. Aha, you say- so far this shows mastic only in Arabic cookery, but not European? Not so. Taillevant has a Cameline sauce containg mastic (there's also a garlic cameline, but more on that in another post) with which he sauces Red Mullet, Fresh Salmon, Gar, Dory, and Breem, all, IMO, fairly strong flavored fishes. He also sauces Stewed Deer Testicles with it. I am not including any of the recipes calling for Garlic Cameline, because from context I can't tell whether it's a separate variant, or an addition to the base recipe. Le Menagier de Paris, in the early part of his book describes purchasing Cameline sauce for a couple of parties- 3 half pints for 32 meals, and a 2 qt pot to hold it, and a qt of Cameline for 40 meals. Later, he describes the sauce itself, but it includes no mastic- since it's the same century as Taillevant, and the same area (France) I'm wondering id the mastic might have been a temporary fad, or if perhaps changes of trade patterns, between Crusades and the Mongols might have made it unavailable, or if perhaps he might not have known exactly what was in the Cameline he purchased. His usage seemed to be on anything of flesh, but I'm not including a list because I'm unsure if it really included mastic or not. Of course, "Soup for the Qan" included mastic in the one soup dish, but the notes say that it was an import from the Middle Eastern countries. Margali said she thinks she remembers a reference in Two 15th Century Cookbooks, but at this point, I'm so tired of reading cookbooks, I didn't look. For the same reason, Cindy, I didn't look at 1000 Eggs- do you have any references? Phlip Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 22:51:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Philippa Alderton Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Mastic for Stefan To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org --- Stefan li Rous wrote: > > From Cariadoc's Mexcellany, the cooking section, > > the following recipes contain mastic: Looks like Cariadoc has expanded his Arabic recipes since Margali got her copy- might need to get the newest version. Cariadoc, wasn't there a Morroccan recipe in the 8th edition? I was looking for it to post for the lady who was looking for Morroccan recipes, but npow I can't find it. > > Aha, you say- so far this shows mastic only in > > Arabic cookery, but not European? > > Up to this point that was occuring to me... Well, why not list it as an ingredient very common in Medieval Arabic cookery, particularly in regards to lamb and red meats, but occasionally used with fish or chicken, and occasionally found in French cookery, depending on trading habits? Almost every Arabic meat recipe I found had mastic in it. Phlip Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 07:20:44 -0400 From: johnna holloway To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Mastic for Stefan. It's not in the index for Two Fifteenth, Curye on Inglishe, or in Wilson's Food & Drink in Britain. I would think that its use in non-Arabic cuisines would be somewhat limited. Johnnae llyn Lewis Johnna Holloway From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 18:18:02 -0400 Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Mastic for Stefan > Why the difference in interest in mastic, I wonder. Was the > source of the mastic just much closer to the Arabs? Or does > this help indicate that perfumed food in general was more > appreciated in the Middle East than in Europe? But both > used rose water in food, right? > > Stefan li Rous An additional point to ponder: I don't recall seeing mastic in any recipes from Christian Spain, even though the Arabs greatly influenced Hispanic cuisine, and introduced many new foods. For whatever reason, mastic didn't "take". Brighid ni Chiarain *** mka Robin Carroll-Mann Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom From: "Terry Decker" To: Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Mastic for Stefan Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 18:13:46 -0500 Mastic is used in Apicius 3, Absintium romanum sic facies: (Make Roman absinthe thus:). Bear >I gather that that's where it grew, and its usage >spread from the Arabic areas to every place else- I'm >thinking that if we look, we might find it was in >vogue in several odd places, during the latter part >of, and shortly following, the Crusades. We might also >find it in Rome, during the Empire, when there was so >much trade between Europe and North Africa. > >Phlip Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 08:57:18 +1000 From: "Craig Jones." Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] gum mastic source To: "SCA-Cooks maillist (E-mail)" Organization: Airservices Australia >Their gum mastic is $50 for 500 gms. I would suggest that a pound is probably more Mastic than I'll use in 3 of my lifetimes... When cooking a pot of Mastaji for 12 people, I'd probably only add 2 grams. It's strong stuff... It's a good price though... Drake. Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 07:19:55 -0400 From: johnna holloway To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Mastic "Mastic for Beginners" by Andrew Dalby is in PPC 65. PP 38-45 which the introduction notes is longer than what is offered in his book Dangerous Tastes. Johnna Holloway Johnnae llyn Lewis Christina Nevin wrote: It's still used to make bread in Greece - ask Bear, he would know. > Apparently it's delicious. So any Greek-orientated Mediterranean grocery > should have some. > There was an extremely good article on it in PPC a couple of issues ago. > Lucrezia From: "Decker, Terry D." To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Mastic Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 13:15:53 -0500 > It's still used to make bread in Greece - ask Bear, he would know. > Apparently it's delicious. So any Greek-orientated > Mediterranean grocery > should have some. > There was an extremely good article on it in PPC a couple of > issues ago. > > Lucrezia Tsoureki. It's an Easter bread. I've never seen it, tasted it or made it. Mastic is used as a flavoring agent in Greek baking and candy making. I finally remembered where I saw an interesting little piece on mastic and Greeks, http://www.kal69.dial.pipex.com/ppc67.htm#Petits Bear From: "Erika Thomenius" To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] turpentine taste Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 18:54:45 -0600 >Phlip commented: >I'm willing to bet there is >commentary about not using pine wood for a roasting >fire- I rather doubt Medeval people liked turpentine >flavored food any more than we do ;-) > >To which Margali replied: >So how the hell do you explain Retsina wine? And chewing gum made of pine sap was quite popular in medieval Finland. They even had special tools to harvest the stuff. (Check out _From Viking to Crusader_ by Else Roesdahl.) -Gytha "But it probably sticks to your dental work" Karlsdotter Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 08:50:19 -0400 From: johnna holloway To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] for the botanists- You might want to check out the new Timber Press title on plant gums and resins for more details. Maybe a library can ILLoan it in for you. It's expensive but at 600 plus pages it may well have what you want. Plant Resins: Chemistry, Evolution, Ecology, and Ethnobotany by Jean H. Langenheim http://www.timberpress.com/books/index.cfm?do=details&ID=625 Johnnae llyn Lewis "Laura C. Minnick" wrote: > Ok, after spending several hours on-line, and the best I can find is family > Fabaceae- one of the divisions being Mimosoideae, and of those there is > Acacia, and Mimosa pudica. So I'm trying to find out what was growing in > Poitou in 1154- the > travelogues etc refer both to acacia and to mimosa- and I'm trying to > figure out which is which. I know acacia can be tapped for gum, and I > know that mimosa shrinks from touch. But which lives in Poitou? Either? > Both? when someone mentions one, which do they mean? AAAAAAAAGAHHHHH! > 'Lainie Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 07:01:01 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subjct: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fw: [MR] gum arabic versus gum tragacanth To: "Cooks within the SCA" , Gum arabic is derved from members of the genus Acacia, primarily A. senegal. Gum tragacanth is derived from Astragallus gummifer (Syrian tragacanth). Both are used in the same manner, but gum tragacanth has greater stability over a wider range of acidity and temperature and is therefor considered the better product for commercial use. IIRC, both are mentioned by Theophratus (?), which makes them known from Antiquity. Bear >> As one who plays with late period candy making, can >> anyone show me a detailed discussion o the >> differences between gum arabic and gum tragacanth? >> I've had at least one cooking laurel tell me they're >> the same and other cooks who tell me they aren't. >> >> Any knowledge from someone who has studied the >> differences/similarities would e appreciated. >> >> Rebecca Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 10:41:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fw: [MR] gum arabic versus gum tragacanth To: Cooks within the SCA >> As one who plays with late period candy making, can >> anyone show me a detailed discussion of the >> differences between gum arabic and gum tragacanth? >> I've had at least one cooking laurel tell me they're >> the same and other cooks who tell me they aren't. Gum tragacanth and gum arabic are quite different. When you add water to gum arabic, you get a sort of slime if you wait long enough. However, adding water to gum tragacanth gets you a jellylike substance that expands greatly. Sez the venerable Encyclopedia Britannica: "Some plant gums, such as gum arabic, dissolve in water to give clear solutions. Other gums, such as gum tragacanth, form mucilages by the absorption of large amounts of water." Gum Tragacanth is often called gumdragon in period sources. Oxford English Dictionary sez: "Tragacanth 1. A .gum. or mucilaginous substance obtained from several species of Astragulus (see 2), by natural exudation or incision, in the form of whitish strings or flakes, only partially soluble in water: see quot. 1875. Used in medicine (chiefly as a vehicle for drugs) and in the industrial arts. Also a similar substance obtained from Sterculia Tragacantha of W. Africa. a. Commonly called gum tragacanth." "gum arabic, which is exuded by certain species of Acacia, and arabic acid, obtained from it." Two different species of trees! -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:53:26 -0400 From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Gum Arabic WAS parlor tricks To: Cooks within the SCA On Oct 25, 2005, at 1:03 PM, Martinsen at ansteorra.org, Kerri" " at ansteorra.org wrote: > For those of us uneducated, what would one use gum arabic for? > > Vitha Today it shows up in candies, chewing gum, and sometimes as an emulsifier for ice cream, among other uses. I'm not sure to what extent Gum Arabic is used in period cookery or confectionery, but other gums (primarily gums tragacanth and benzoin, a.k.a. gum dragon and benjamin, respectively, in some period sources) are used mostly as either edible adhesives or to change the textures of various foods, mostly confections. So, for example, you sometimes see instructions to use a solution of gum to glue gold or silver leaf to a food or a pastille, or to toughen up sugar plate (IOW, to make it less brittle and fragile), etc. I believe gums in small quantities can also have medicinal applications -- maybe someone else has more detailed information at hand, but I vaguely recall some gums being considered to have expectorant qualities. Adamantius Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:01:52 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Gum Arabic WAS parlor tricks To: "Cooks within the SCA" Here is an excellent article about Gum Arabic... how it is in nature, how it is harvested, what it is used in... have fun ... http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/200502/gum.arabic.htm This on-line magazine is full of all sorts of interesting things, not necessarily cooking related, though. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Meisterin Katarina Helene von Schönborn, OL Shire of Narrental (Peru, Indiana) http://narrental.home.comcast.net Middle Kingdom Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:04:29 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Gum Arabic WAS parlor tricks To: Cooks within the SCA Martinsen at ansteorra.org wrote: > For those of us uneducated, what would one use gum arabic for? > > Vitha It's used in confections among other things. http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/duke_energy/Acacia_senegal.html Johnnae Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:12:01 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Robin Carroll-Mann Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Gum Arabic WAS parlor tricks To: Cooks within the SCA -----Original Message----- From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" I'm not sure to what extent Gum Arabic is used in period cookery or confectionery, but other gums (primarily gums tragacanth and benzoin, a.k.a. gum dragon and benjamin, respectively, in some period sources) are used mostly as either edible adhesives or to change the textures of various foods, mostly confections. _______________________________________________ Gum arabic appears in some of the confectionary receipes in the Anonymous Andalusian. (Incidently, I tossed a pea-sized lump of it into a couple of inches of diet root beer, and nothing happened. Perhaps it needs to be powdered.) Brighid ni Chiarain Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 09:48:17 -0500 From: "Leslie Falzone" Subject: [Sca-cooks] medicinal recipies To: I have not tried this one but I have worked with edible camphor. make sure you get it from a good East Indian shop and tell them it is to eat. They will make sure you get the right stuff. There are several different ways to process campor, and some should not be ingested. aibhilin > I found this recipe in An Anonymous Andalusian Cookbook of the > Thirteenth Century. Has anyone experimented with it? (I'm currently > collecting medicinal foods from the 12th-14th centuries.) > > This is given to feverish people as a food and takes the place of > medicine. Take sweet, peeled almonds and pound them fine. Then extract > their milk with a sieve or clean cloth, until it becomes like milk. Add > pomegranate and tart apple juice, pear juice, juice of quince and of > roasted gourd, whatever may be available of these. Prepare them like the > juice squeezed from the almonds and like the mixture of white sugar. Put > in a glazed earthenware tinjir and light a gentle fire under it. After > boiling, add some dissolved starch paste and when it thickens, put > together rose oil and fresh oil and light under it a gentle fire until it > thickens. Then take off the fire and take it out. If the stomach is > weak, add rosewater mixed with camphor. > > Pax Christi, > Lady Cecilia de Cambrige Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 16:13:20 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] medicinal recipies To: "Cooks within the SCA" > Is the recipe referring to camphor resin (from a tree in the related to > cinnamon) or to the camphor from elecampane? I thought it referred > to the former. Any ideas? Camphor within period will almost certainly the extract from Cinnamomum camphora. Elecampane (Inula helenium), known as inula to the Romans, has a champhoraceous odor, but I haven't located a source for the terms elecampane camphor or inula camphor in period. Neither Culpepper or Gerard relates elecampane to camphor. The methods of use described by these authors would primarily extract inulin. According to one source, the earliest observation of elecampane camphor (helenin) was by Le Febre in 1660 as a crystallization in the head of the receiver during the distillation of elecampane root in water. Bear Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 10:48:13 -0300 From: Suey Subject: [Sca-cooks] medicinal recipies To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Whether camphor called for in the Anonymous Andalusian Cookbook of the Thirteenth Century is from camphor resin or from a tree related to cinnamon or camphor from elecampane is too technical for the Huici or Perry translations as no explanation is provided except in in Huici?s translation of the recipe "Camphor from Basil," see CXVI on page 141. Susan Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 09:27:40 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] medicinal recipies To: "Cooks within the SCA" The Arabic usage (that little of it I have been able to find) and the derivation of camphor into English suggest that the camphor called for in the recipes is indeed camphor from Cinnamomum camphora. Having no access to Huici-Miranda's translation, I can't comment on "Camphor from Basil." Bear ----- Original Message ----- Whether camphor called for in the Anonymous Andalusian Cookbook of the Thirteenth Century is from camphor resin or from a tree related to cinnamon or camphor from elecampane is too technical for the Huici or Perry translations as no explanation is provided except in in Huici?s translation of the recipe "Camphor from Basil," see CXVI on page 141. Susan Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 22:03:35 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] medicinal recipies To: "Cooks within the SCA" I just realized that most of the recipes using camphor in the Anonymous Andalusian Cookbook call for it to be dissolved in rosewater. It can't be elecampane camphor, which once extracted is not water soluble. Helenin and the other active ingredients are extracted from the crystal matrix by iterative alcohol baths. Bear Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 22:09:20 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] medicinal recipies To: "Cooks within the SCA" Elecampane camphor and its extraction were first described in 1660. Since it can occur naturally on old elecampane root, so it was probable seen and used earlier. However, it is not water soluble, so it does not meet the recipe instructions in the Anonymous Andalusian Cookbook. Bear ----- Original Message ----- If we know whether of not camphor was extracted from elecampane in the 13th century, it would help. (I think someone said that it hadn't been extracted until the 17th century.) Even if the translation doesn't specifically say what sort of camphor, we can at leas make an educated guess as to what may have been used. Pax Christi, Sydney Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 22:32:37 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Medicinal Recipes To: , "Cooks within the SCA" > Bear said: >> Having no access to Huici-Miranda's translation, I can't comment on >> "Camphor from Basil." > > Were you looking for the Spanish translation that Huici-Miranda did of the > Arabic manuscript? If so, I have the Spanish here somewhere. Charles > Perry went back to the Arabic manuscript when he reviewed our English > translation of Huici-Miranda's Spanish version. I don't have the Arabic. > If you are curious about the Spanish, let me know and tell me which > recipe, please. > > Alys Katharine According to Susan, it is CXVI from page 141. There doesn't appear to be anything in Perry's translation on "Camphor from Basil," so I'm curious. While the Spanish is a translation, it is certainly more usable by me than the original Arabic. I am curious about the Arabic usage and the precision of the translation, but making such an evaluation is beyond my linguistic skills. From Perry's translation, it appears that the Arabic usage allows the term we translate as camphor to be used to things that resemble camphor and I would be interested to see what the section on "Camphor from Basil" holds. Bear Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 13:17:26 -0300 From: Suey Subject: [Sca-cooks] Medicinal Recipes To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org I do have access to the Huici Miranda translation and in text for the book I am preparing my comments on the meaning of camphor are: "The tree is a native of China and Japan and spread from there to India and Madagascar. The Arabs brought it to Europe where it grows in Italy and now in other tropical and subtropical countries." I, therefore, assumed that the tree was brought to Spain the with all the many other herbs, spices, vegetables and durum wheat by the Islams. The bad news is that looking at my text of my citation I find it is incorrect. As the Chilean National Library is so worthless I must go back to Madrid, Spain which will cost me a pretty penny to find the source although I presume it is from Covarrubias Orozco, Sebasti?n de. Tesoro de la lengua castellana o espa?ol. Madrid: Luis S?nchez, impressora del Rey N.S.1611 Many thanks for tripping me up keep it up! Recipes including camphor and instructing to "dissolve it by pounding" are: 45. Receta de la "Ka-fu-riya" -- con alcanfor, p 37-38 50. Receta de la "Y^ula-biya -- plato con julepe -- p. 40 62. Gallina que se llama ?bra-himiya," p 46 323. Hechura de manzana, p 180 372. Torta blanca con cebolla, p 204-205 381. Hechura del /Muhlabiya/, p 209 402. Receta para hacer Y^u-da-ba, llamada Umm al-faray^ es un plato oriental, p 200-221 404. /Y^u-da-ba/ provechosa para el fr?o y que fortalece el coito, p 222 405. Hechura de la /Kina-fa/, p 223 420. /Rafi-s/ regio, p 231-232 427. Receta de la rosquilla, p 235 433. Otra clase de ?l, p 239 435. Hechura de la Qa-hiriya, p 240 436. Qa-hiriya al horno, p 240-241 437. La /Qa-hiriya/ solar, p 241 438. Qa-hiriya llamada Al-s,a-bu-niya, p 241 439. El /Sanbu-sak/, p 242 441. Receta de los Qat,a-if ?Abbra-sies, p 243 444. Receta del enmielado, usado entre nosotros, como final de los platos, p 244 446. Enmielado usado en T?nez en los banquetes, p 245 469. Dulce oriental, p 257 472. La marm?rea, p 258 473. Hechura de Alcorza de az?zar, p 258 474. Hechura del /Alfe?ique/, p 259 475. Azucarado, p 259-260 Susan > Bear wrote: >> Having no access to Huici-Miranda's translation, I can't comment on >> "Camphor from Basil." > > Were you looking for the Spanish translation that Huici-Miranda did of the > Arabic manuscript? If so, I have the Spanish here somewhere. Charles > Perry went back to the Arabic manuscript when he reviewed our English > translation of Huici-Miranda's Spanish version. I don't have the Arabic. > If you are curious about the Spanish, let me know and tell me which > recipe, please. > > Alys Katharine Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 14:07:11 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] medicinal recipies To: "Cooks within the SCA" Camphor can cause liver damage, but that is normally from prolonged exposure. Adults can take up to 2 mg/kg of body mass without noticeable effect. It can be extremely toxic to small children and infants. It's also not recommended for pregnant women. You should be able to get it from a druggist. Reading over some of the survey info for poison control, I'd be willing to expirement with camphor as a spice, but I wouldn't want to use it in a feast. Bear > Camphor would be Cinnamomum camphora. When i mentioned this to a > chemist friend, he was rather disturbed and said that it should not > be eaten and that it causes liver damage. He suggested substituting > menthol (NOT mint). Menthol is used in many products, like candy, > mouthwash, toothpaste, etc. so it is safe to consume in small > quantities. I don't know if druggists sell it (i know they used to > sell wintergreen oil - i don't know if they still do), or if you'd > have to get it from a chemical supply house or commercial flavor > manufacturer... > > Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM) > the persona formerly known as Anahita Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 10:58:56 -0800 From: Susan Fox Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] medicinal recipies To: Cooks within the SCA As for the toxicity of camphor and ambrette seed: I tend to cheat on things like this and dot a bit of the scented oil under the rim of the plate. You get the scent in the nose without ingesting iffy substances through the mouth that way. Selene Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 23:01:13 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: [Sca-cooks] camphor was medicinal recipies To: "Cooks within the SCA" I came across a few interesting tidbits concerning camphor. There are a couple of studies that show synthetic camphor is 25% more toxic than natural camphor. 80% of the world's natural camphor comes from Formosa. And that volatile oils increase the solubility of camphor in water (about 1 gm per 800 cc in pure water), which is a possible reason for specifying dissolving it in rosewater in the Anonymous Andalusian Cookbook. Bear Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 16:28:05 -0300 From: Suey Subject: [Sca-cooks] Camphor in medicinal recipes To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org I think Bear now has us cooking. I was getting a little worried about how people in non-third world countries get so up tight about food quality but looking down the street one sees that few worry about the quantity. As camphor was considered a medicine I think we must accept that fact and that it couldn't be as bad as painted in previous messages. Before leaving this subject I would like to correct a gross error of mine. I don't know where I got the idea that Huici translated a recipe for "Camphor from Basil," No. CXVI on page 141. I must have been off my rocker when I wrote that. Huici's translation of Recipe CXVI is on page 80 and it is a 'Green dish stuffed with almonds', no camphor is called for. As a matter of fact basil is not included either but cilantro juice for coloring. Recipes on page 141 are chicken dishes which do not call for camphor either. The only recipes calling for camphor are those I mentioned in Sca- cooks Digest, Vol 7, Issue 35 on Nov 14, except for a couple of typo errors on the page numbers. All of Huici's translations call for camphor dissolved in rose water as Perry's making it obvious that the camphor tree existed in Southern Spain or it was imported from Italy - which I doubt as the Islams had a tendency to plant what they could of the products they imported to Spain as seen with rice, sugar, citrons, bananas, artichokes etc. Lilinah or Bear wrote: I came across a few interesting tidbits concerning camphor. There are a couple of studies that show synthetic camphor is 25% more toxic than natural camphor. 80% of the world's natural camphor comes from Formosa. And that volatile oils increase the solubility of camphor in water (about 1 gm per 800 in pure water), which is a possible reason for specifying dissolving it in rosewater in the Anonymous Andalusian Cookbook. Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 16:57:10 -0500 From: "Elise Fleming" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sugarpaste Questions To: "sca-cooks at ansteorra.org" James wrote: > Thing that's mainly getting me is that what I've used in the past, gum > tragacanth, isn't that easy to find. Was wondering if gum arabic will > work the same? No. Don't use gum arabic. Go to a cake decorating supply store or go online and purchase whatever they are calling gum paste powder. It is a different gum - probably gum karaya which is slightly pinker in color and makes a slightly beiger white than the whiter white of tragacanth sugar paste. I'm not sure if you can get the plain gum paste powder without the added sugar. The added sugar stuff tells you to just add water. I don't see any plain gum paste powder in the Sweet Celebrations paper catalog but I might have missed it. They do have a "gum paste mix" which has the sugar already added. Alys Katharine Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 20:53:47 -0500 From: Heleen Greenwald Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Oh, My Aching Comfits! To: alysk at ix.netcom.com, Cooks within the SCA When I was reading about your work with making confits, I was wondering about gum arabic so I looked it up. OK, so now I am convinced that you can eat the stuff.....but I have a bottle of gum arabic that I use in calligraphy.... and I would never eat THAT stuff... Is it the same thing?? Phillipa gum arabic NOUN: A gum exuded by various African trees of the genus Acacia, especially A. senegal, used in the preparation of pills and emulsions and the manufacture of mucilage and candies and in general as a thickener and colloidal stabilizer. Also called acacia . Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 21:23:34 -0500 From: "Elise Fleming" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Oh, My Aching Comfits! To: "Heleen Greenwald" , "Cooks within the SCA" The gum Arabic that I use is food grade and in a powder, not the liquid stuff that is prepared for calligraphers. I don't know what kind of solution the calligraphy Arabic is in but the powdered kind is available from "Sweet Celebrations" and other cake decorating supply stores. Alys Katharine Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 22:12:52 -0500 From: Robin Carroll-Mann Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Oh, My Aching Comfits! To: Cooks within the SCA Elise Fleming wrote: > The gum Arabic that I use is food grade and in a powder, not the > liquid stuff that is prepared for calligraphers. I don't know what > kind of solution the calligraphy Arabic is in but the powdered kind > is available from "Sweet Celebrations" and other cake decorating > supply stores. > > Alys Katharine I don't use gum Arabic much. When I need some, I buy it from the Indian grocery store. It's sold -- under the name of "Edible Gum" -- in crystal form. I usually crush it in a mortar to the size of pretzal salt before dissolving it in water of rosewater. -- Brighid ni Chiarain Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 16:54:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Christiane Subject: [Sca-cooks] Mastic (was that Spanish bread recipe, etc.) To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org This semolina bread recipe reminds me a bit of how pan riminiciato is made; mainly having to soften the semolina with water, and the use of a heavy blanket to keep the dough warm as it rises (a lambskin would keep it even warmer). Anyway, I was curious about mastic and found this nice description: http://www.theepicentre.com/Spices/mastic.html And this weird article about the antibacterial properties of mastic: http://www.life-enhancement.com/article_template.asp?ID=770 Gianotta Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 18:21:57 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] New World Foods To: "Cooks within the SCA" > snow flake wrote: >> maple syrup perhaps... but a lot of different trees have sap that I find >> hard to believe no one would have tried to do something with. Have to >> look at the trees across europe now. ;c) > > I was looking at that a couple of years ago for a writing project, and > while they had maples in Europe, they did not have Sugar Maples- those > are native to what is now the eastern US. Which is not to say that the > Europeans didn't tap tree sap, but I don't know of any instances of it > until the discovery of the Americas. > > Bear, do you know more about this? > > 'Lainie Looks like everyone beat me to it. IIRC, the Europeans tapped pines for resin until they developed the distillation process for pine tar, so they certainly knew how to draw and use sap. They also tapped marsh mallows and opium poppies for their sap. I will admit I had forgotten about using birch sap, although I have some reservations about how widespread the use was. I don't think European use of birch was anywhere as great as the collection of maple syrup, even in the 18th Century. Bear Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 13:05:42 -0800 From: David Friedman To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Another not-Mughal Indian recipe <<< So...where do you get edible camphor and musk? So far I've not been able to find either. Kiri >>> You get edible camphor by trying lots of Indian grocery stores until you find one that carries it. I don't think actual musk is available any more; I believe it comes from musk deer which are a protected species. I haven 't found a substitute, but it sounds as though Madhavi has. Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 17:34:02 -0500 From: Robin Carroll-Mann To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Another not-Mughal Indian recipe On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 4:05 PM, David Friedman wrote: <<< You get edible camphor by trying lots of Indian grocery stores until you find one that carries it. >>> Since there's no lack of those in my neighborhood, I'll have to take a look. According to my copy of "The Indian Grocery Store Demystified", edible camphor is called karcha karpoor, and comes in small jars or boxes. The author recommends the Swad brand. Brighid ni Chiarain From: "lilinah at earthlink.net" To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Sent: Sat, January 15, 2011 4:40:47 PM Subject: [Sca-cooks] Musk and Camphor, was Flour question Kiri wrote: <<< ...please remind me what I could use in the place of the frequent references to camphor and musk. In some places, the reference is to "aromatics" and the two are cited as examples. There are a couple of really cool dessert dishes that I'd love to use but acquiring either of these is a problem...not to mention that I understand that the musk that's available is a chemical compound used in perfumes and is poisonous! >>> There are some vegetable musk substitutes that may be edible in small quantities: ambrette seeds (Abelmoschus moschatus, related to hibiscus) and labdanum (which comes fromrock rose / Cistus ladaniferus; no, this is NOT laudanum :) I cannot guarantee the safety of either as i have not done much research into them. From what i can tell, the natural plants themselves are safe to consume in small quantities, but distillates from them used in perfumery are not There is an edible form of camphor from the Borneo camphor (Dryobalanops camphora, as distinct from Cinnamomum camphora) used by South Asians, frequently in sweets. I have not yet gone looking for it, but several listees have found it, including Mahdavi and Cariadoc, have found it in South Asian markets. In various Indian languages it is called Kacha Karpoor (Hindi) or Pacha Karpooram (Tamil) (also written pachai, paccha, pachha, and pachcha) or Cheen Karpooram (Telugu); the name means raw camphor. It comes in small crystals looking somewhat like coarse salt and is derived by steam distillation from the leaves and wood of the Borneo camphor tree. Heres a photo: http://www.marktz.in/images/panch%20karpooram.jpg And always specify edible, or the kind used in paan (betel leaf mix) because nonedible, and downright poisonous, camphor smelling stuff is used for other purposes. Definitely not blocks or tablets, nor so called medicinal (for external use), nor puja (burned as an offering in religious ceremonies) I tried to find it for sale on the internet, but could only find it on an merchant website in India. I will definitely have to explore the many South Asian markets near me. -- Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM] the persona formerly known as Anahita Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 08:35:50 +1100 From: Margaret Rendell To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Musk and Camphor, was Flour question lilinah at earthlink.net wrote: <<< Kiri wrote: ...please remind me what I could use in the place of the frequent references to camphor and musk... Another thought regarding musk... what about those infamous Australian musk flavored Life Savers? >>> never gone for musk life savers, I prefer musk sticks (do a google image search if you're curious :) because I prefer lollies you can chew. What about artificial musk essence? I've never used it, but found it online at http://bakingpleasures.com.au/ss/Musk-flavour Margaret/Emma Melbourne, Australia/Krae Glas, Lochac Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2011 15:22:30 -0800 (PST) From: Huette von Ahrens To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Flour question I think that this recipe sounds delightful, even without the musk.? Before I would ever try using musk or camphor, I would try it out in a small batch with only a select few to taste.? I am not sure what musk would taste like, but from the camphor cough drops that I tried years ago, it is a pretty strong flavor, which modern Americans might not like. But rather than using coriander as the aromatic, IMHO, I would rather try cardamom, which was popular in period both in Europe and the Middle East.? It can also be found commercially in a very fine powdered form. I just looked up 'musk' in the Oxford Companion to Food which says this: "In appropriately discreet quantity or diluted form, musk was formerly used in the kitchen with rose-water to flavour such things as pies but this practice seems to have died out." The OCF goes on to say, "Smell-alikes in the plant world often have common names incorporating 'musk' or 'musky'. The musk melon is one example; and there are also the musk cucumber and musk lime. The musk mallow, 'Abelmoschus moschatus' is a different matter, in that its seeds provide a musky spice (French, ambrette) sometimes used to flavour coffee." I have looked up ambrette or muskdana and found a site that sold the seeds for $7.00 an ounce that were food grade seeds.? It is another idea. Huette Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 11:26:17 -0800 (PST) From: Spices at Spicewells To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Musk and Camphor, was Flour question I have recently obtained several bottles of edible camphor for sale. And, I have to admit, it was an adventure finding it. According to a conversation I had with Cariadoc at Midrealm 40 year, a little goes a very long way. The 100 gram bottle would likely serve for many recipes. If anyone would like some, please let me know off line. I ship using USPS Priority Mail, so the cost is pretty low. Caitriona MacDhonnachaidh Spicewell's Middle Kingdom 618.830.2342 Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2011 18:43:22 +0000 (GMT) From: galefridus at optimum.net To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Aloeswood substitution <<< I've been looking up aloeswood and find that it's a resin from an evergreen. Does anyone have suggestions for substitutions? My initial though is juniper berries or gin. Sayyeda al-Kaslaania >>> I've done some preliminary investigations into aloeswood as well -- I could not find an adequate description of the scent, but I found that the major components of aoeswood essential oil are a class of chemicals called sesquiterpenes. ?For juniper berries, on the other hand, the major component is a monoterpene. ?Thus, it seems that the chemical differences are significant enough to make it unlikely that juniper -- berries or gin -- would be a good substitute. But I could be wrong -- given the unbelievably high price of aloeswood (it could give saffron a run for the money), it would definitely be worth locating a substitute of some sort. -- Galefridus Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 14:57:35 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Aloeswood substitution <<< I've been looking up aloeswood and find that it's a resin from an evergreen. Does anyone have suggestions for substitutions? My initial though is juniper berries or gin. >>> Mastic perhaps? I sometimes describe the flavor as dehydrated turpentine. Is this from a recipe? What cuisine? -- David/Cariadoc =============== Mastic probably won't do. Aloeswood is a member of genus Aquilaria that has been infected by a parasitic mold, Phaeoacremonium parasitica. The resin is produced to counter the parasite. Bear Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 16:30:21 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" To: , "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Aloeswood substitution <<< Is Aloeswood a bush, tree, berry or mold? What is it? Aelina the Confused >>> Aloeswood is the dark heart wood of a tree of the genus Aquilaria which has been infected by Phaeoacremonium parasitica. The infection produces a resin high in volatile oils as an occulsive reaction to the infection. The resin impregnates and creates the darkened wood. All of these conditions must occur to have aloeswood. The active ingredients are the essential oils in the resin. The oils can be extracted from either the resin or the wood. AKA agar, agarwood, Oud, jinko, gaharu, etc. Bear Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 19:47:53 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Aloeswood substitution Sounds like you have it. A. malaccensis is the most common of the Aquilaria to produce aloeswood. The resin is mostly contained in the wood itself (Aquilaria wood is naturally light colored, the occlusive resin is what darkens the wood). In nature the infected plants that produce aloeswood are roughly 7 per cent of the total population. Cultivated A. malaccensis is usually infected to produce aloeswood. You can find both wood and resin, but I have no information on relative availability and price. Essential oils are extracted (as I understand the process) by heating the wood to cook off the volatiles in the resin and condensing the vapor. I know of references to aloeswood in a medicinal context, but it's use in cooking is a new one on me. Bear <<< This is new to me. We carry an aloewood in the incense section but I never thought to use it for cooking. Would have to check on the grade of the product. It is listed as : Aloeswood AKA Agarwood (oud) Aquilaria agallocha Roxb. (A. Malaccensis), fam. Thymelaeceae It looks like petrified wood and I have never seen any resins on it. It is fairly expensive. Is this the same family? It is also available as Pure Essential Oil Aoud/Oud but it is $600.00 ish per ounce ! Not affordable by me ! Are they using it as a flavoring or as a thickener for other items? Somewhat like Galangale. Mora Dragonmarsh >>> Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 11:44:47 -0500 From: Sayyeda al-Kaslaania To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: [Sca-cooks] aloeswood from sustainable source Here is the info I promised to send along. I'm very excited to have a sustainable resource for aloeswood! Sayyeda al-Kaslaania -------- Original Message -------- Dear Julia, Technology from our research is used to produce agarwood in plantations. We have set up an internet company to help the farmers in Vietnam sell their products and you can find agarwood for sale at: ScentedMountain.com Agarwood has been used as an incense and in traditional medicine but I have never heard of it used in food. What has it been used for in cooking? The agarwood chips and agarwood powder sold by Scented Mountain is pure "raw" agarwood right out of the tree so it would be as "food grade" as you can get. Robert Blanchette Robert A. Blanchette, Professor Department of Plant Pathology 1991 Upper Buford Circle, 495 Borlaug Hall University of Minnesota St. Paul, Minnesota 55108-6030 U.S.A. Phone: 612-625-0202, Fax: 612-625-9728 E-mail: robertb at umn.edu [I futzed the email to reduce spam] Current research: http://forestpathology.cfans.umn.edu/ Recent publications: http://forestpathology.cfans.umn.edu/publications.htm Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2012 12:14:24 -0500 From: Johnna Holloway To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Mastic moment was do someone know about the Greek mastic? I just received a post on mastic from Tasting Table National which talks about including it in modern cookies, ice creams, and other desserts, http://www.tastingtable.com/entry_detail/national/7111 This shop is mentioned as a source in the US http://www.mastihashopny.com/ Johnnae Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 18:52:22 -0800 From: "David Friedman" To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] do someone know about the Greek mastic? It's a very strongly flavored condiment; I like to describe it as dehydrated turpentine. Most recipes where we use it we specify about 1/16 t. That's to our taste, but there is a recipe for Mastajhi, a dish that not only contains mastic but is named for it, in _A Soup for the Khan_, and the recipe has quantities. It works out to about 1/40 t of mastic to a little over a pound of meat. In small quantities it give a bit of a tang to the dish. At Wed, 01 Feb 2012 22:33:37 -0500, Johnna Holloway wrote: <<< The An Anonymous Andalusian Cookbook uses mastic in a number of recipes like Dish of Meat with Walnuts and Mastic Johnnae Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 19:08:18 -0400 From: "Jim and Andi Houston" To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: [Sca-cooks] KWCB & musk Just got back to Trimaris a couple of hours ago and despite the exhausting travel, the trip was totally worth it. The Outlands is awesome! Everyone was incredibly friendly and welcoming. The classes were amazing. The best part of the trip was getting to meet members of this great list! Many people wanted the source for the real musk sugar I brought for my class. Here is the website: http://www.qt-store.com/servlet/StoreFront They have an incredible variety of hard-to-get scents! I bought the deer musk oil. Madhavi Edited by Mark S. Harris gums-resins-msg 32 of 32