gillyflower-msg - 9/27/13 Does "gillyflower" in period recipes mean "clove" or "carnation"? NOTE: See also the files: Gillyflower-art, flowers-msg, merch-spices-msg, saffron-art, spices-msg, orng-flwr-wtr-msg, cook-flowers-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: Raymond Wickham Date: March 31, 2010 7:28:33 AM CDT To: Subject: Cherry Pottage This was posted and I believe its in reference to the redaction by Gideanus Adamantius from Ostgardr in the East Kingdom you may want to inform them as that's a nice change to the recipe 33. To make a syrosye. Tak cheryes & do out the stones & grynde hem wel & draw hem thorw a streynoure & do it in a pot. & do thereto whit gres or swete botere & myed wastel bred, & cast thereto good wyn & sugre, & salte it & stere it wel togedere, & dresse it in disches; & set thereyn clowe gilofre, & strew sugre aboue. 33. To make a syrose (cherry pottage). Take cherries and stone them and grind them well and draw them through a strainer and place it in a pot and add white grease or sweet butter and good white bread and add good wine and sugrar and salt, and stir it well together, and put it into a dish and garnish (?) with cloves and "strew sugar about". (III. Utilis Coquinario from Curye on Ingysch) WHAT IS THE MISTAKE YOU ASK? The mistake is in the translation of "clowe gilofre" to read "cloves". In Britain (and Australia) we have a little plant we grow in cottage gardens: it's common name is 'Pink", it is otherwise known as clove gillyflower or mini-carnation. The online dictionary says "Clove gillyflower (bot.) any fragrant self-coloured carnation. The clove pink." Maybe the French (Odile Redon et al) and the Americans (Constance Heiatt et al) don't call them clove gillyflowers...because the same error appears every time I see this recipe translated by SCAdians Try re-reading the recipe translating 'clove gillyflower' as 'miniature carnations', makes much more sense...yes? Cloves are traditionally used to flavour apples. Not traditionally used to flavour cherries. In this recipe the 'clowe gilofre" is strewn upon the dish after cooking and before serving. You need to cook cloves to infuse the dish with flavour. So to strew little pink flowers upon your crimson soup would look ever so pretty and to my thinking is much more likely to be the desired effect. It would also mean you don't have to "warn your guests that the cloves are there for decoration only" (Redon, et al, 1993) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 10:12:31 -0400 From: devra at aol.com To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Kiri's cherry pottage I greatly respect Kiri's cooking and redaction skills, but I do have a question here. The original recipe says "clove gilofre" (pardon my spelling), which I BELIEVE is actually gillyflowers or carnations or sweet williams. Which would make sense as a garnish, and be somewhat more attractive visually, and to bite into, than whole cloves. Just a thought. Devra Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 16:44:18 -0400 From: Elaine Koogler To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fwd: Cherry Pottage <<< Try re-reading the recipe translating 'clove gillyflower' as 'miniature carnations', makes much more sense...yes? >>> Makes sense to me...I would only caution folks to make sure that the miniature carnations do not have any poisons sprayed on them. You'd probably either need to purchase them from a place that says they are edible...or grow them yourselves. Kiri Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 12:18:09 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Kiri's cherry pottage On Mar 31, 2010, at 10:12 AM, Devra at aol.com wrote: > clove gilofre It seems to be both the flower and the spice. OED under the entry clove-gillyflower The spice clove n.2 1. Obs. a1225 Ancr. R. 370 Ne makeden heo neuer strence of gingiuere ne of gedewal, ne of clou de gilofre. c1386 CHAUCER Sir Thopas 51 And many a clow gilofre And notemuge to put in ale. c1420 Liber Cocorum (1862) 26 With cloves of gelofer hit broche [th]ou shalle. 2. A clove-scented species of Pink (Dianthus Caryophyllus), the original of the carnation and other cultivated double forms. 1538 TURNER Libellus s.v. Betonica, Herba, quam uernacula lingua uocamus a Gelofer, aut a Clowgelofer aut an Incarnacyon. 1578 LYTE Dodoens II. vii. 154 The Cloue gillofer..The floures grow..out of long round smooth huskes and dented or toothed aboue like the spice called cloaues..[they] do all smell almost like Cloues. Johnnae Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 18:07:32 -0400 From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fwd: Cherry Pottage <<< WHAT IS THE MISTAKE YOU ASK? The mistake is in the translation of "clowe gilofre" to read "cloves". In Britain (and Australia) we have a little plant we grow in cottage gardens: it's common name is 'Pink", it is otherwise known as clove gillyflower or mini-carnation. The online dictionary says "Clove gillyflower (bot.) any fragrant self-coloured carnation. The clove pink." Maybe the French (Odile Redon et al) and the Americans (Constance Heiatt et al) don't call them clove gillyflowers...because the same error appears every time I see this recipe translated by SCAdians Try re-reading the recipe translating 'clove gillyflower' as 'miniature carnations', makes much more sense...yes? Cloves are traditionally used to flavour apples. Not traditionally used to flavour cherries. In this recipe the 'clowe gilofre" is strewn upon the dish after cooking and before serving. You need to cook cloves to infuse the dish with flavour. So to strew little pink flowers upon your crimson soup would look ever so pretty and to my thinking is much more likely to be the desired effect. It would also mean you don't have to "warn your guests that the cloves are there for decoration only" (Redon, et al, 1993) >>> I believe we've had this discussion here, and I've had it elsewhere, before. Having established that there is a flower by that name, and also that there are numerous references to cloves gilofre in among spice powder ingredients, and studding other foods with cloves (the spice), how does this suggest that the interpretation as a flower garnish is more viable? It's conceivable. Perhaps there are contemporary recipes in other languages (say, German?) which might provide a clue by using different terms for the different items -- IOW, in German it's unlikely the flower would be called speissnageln, so it might be more clear which item is intended by that source, at least. Adamantius Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 18:25:09 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fwd: Cherry Pottage As I posted earlier, It seems to be both the flower and the spice. OED under the entry clove-gillyflower The spice clove n.2 1. Obs. a1225 Ancr. R. 370 Ne makeden heo neuer strence of gingiuere ne of gedewal, ne of clou de gilofre. c1386 CHAUCER Sir Thopas 51 And many a clow gilofre And notemuge to put in ale. c1420 Liber Cocorum (1862) 26 With cloves of gelofer hit broche [th]ou shalle. 2. A clove-scented species of Pink (Dianthus Caryophyllus), the original of the carnation and other cultivated double forms. 1538 TURNER Libellus s.v. Betonica, Herba, quam uernacula lingua uocamus a Gelofer, aut a Clowgelofer aut an Incarnacyon. 1578 LYTE Dodoens II. vii. 154 The Cloue gillofer..The floures grow..out of long round smooth huskes and dented or toothed aboue like the spice called cloaues..[they] do all smell almost like Cloues. Please note that the spice is older than the use for the flower. OED indicates that the Liber Cocorum use should be that of the spice. What we actually need is a date for the introduction for the flower? It may in fact be 16th century which would make it much later than the 14th and 15th century recipes. Johnnae Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 22:02:59 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fwd: Cherry Pottage Earlier Raymond Wickham stated "Maybe the French (Odile Redon et al) and the Americans (Constance Heiatt et al) don't call them clove gillyflowers...because the same error appears every time I see this recipe translated by SCAdians." and "It would also mean you don't have to "warn your guests that the cloves are there for decoration only" (Redon, et al, 1993)." This writer asserts that it's the flower and not the spice. But perhaps Hieatt isn't wrong. If we return to the collections that make up the Anglo-Norman Culinary Collections (Speculum 61 number 4 (Oct. 1986)) we find this recipe: 3. Saugee. E un autre viaunde, ke ad noun saugee. Pernez bons especes, ceo est a saver bon gingybre e clou de gilofre e kanele e galyngale, e festes braer en un morter; si pernez une poine de sauge, si festes braer en cel morter od celes especes bien; e pernez des oefs e festes quyre durs, e pernez hors le moel e festes braer oveskes le sauge, e od vin egre ou eisil ou cerveyse egre festes le temprer, e pernez le blaunc de 5 l'oef e festes menu, e metez dedenz kaunt il est destempr6; e pernez pie de porc ou char freide e metez dedenz; e puys dressez. page 863 The translation for the second line reads: "take good spices, that is, ginger, cloves, cinnamon, and galingale, and grind them in a mortar;" So here we have "clou de gilofre" very definitely included in a list of "bons especes." Johnnae llyn Lewis, OE Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 08:43:49 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Clove gillyflowers, cloves, etc. On Apr 1, 2010, at 10:59 AM, Christiane wrote:snipped <<< Since the Pennsbury recipes were drawn from a lot of Jacobean-era cookbooks like "The Queens Closet Unlock'd," this looks very familiar to me: >>> The flowers seem to have been around since Norman times in Britain but weren't called gillyflowers. The Medieval Flower Book by Celia Fisher says they weren't grown as garden flowers until late in the 14th century when one friar called them garofila. Looking up Gillyflower and the variants (including just the word gilly) in EEBO-TCP one finds a mention in Tusser's Fiue hundreth points of good husbandry in 1573 where for September he records: "/ Set gilly flowers all, / that growes on the wall." Fynes Moryson Gent. in 1617 mentions seeing "Pease, Artichokes, cloued Gilly flowers, and other flowers of the best kinds, sold in the Market-place of Saint Marke" in his section on Italy. ----- 17th century recipe mentions include and there's no doubt that these are the flowers-- Markham, Gervase. The English house-vvife. 1631. To make Conserue of Flowers. To make conserue of Flowers, as Roses, Violets, Gil|ly flowers, and such like: you shall take the flowers from the stalkes, and with a paire of sheeres cut away the white ends at the roots thereof, and then put them into a stone morter or wooden brake, and there crush or beate them till they be come to a soft substance: and then to euery pound thereof, take a pound of fine refined sugar well searst and beate it all together, till it come to one intire body, and then pot it vp, and vse it as occasion shall serue. Mid-late 17th century The Queens closet opened incomparable secrets in physick, chyrurgery, preserving, and candying &c. which were presented unto the queen. 1659. Including the medicinal recipes of The Pearle of Practice, I counted at least 11 recipes calling for gilly-flowers. Lots of various cures call for them. Also -- To make Gilly-flower Wine. Take two ounces of dried Gilly-flowers, and put them into a pottle of Sack, and beat three ounces of Sugarcandy, or fine Sugar, and grinde some Ambergreece, and put it in the bottle and shake it oft, then run it through a gelly bag, and give it for a great Cordial after a weeks standing or more. You make Lavander Wine as you do this. To make Paste of flowers of the colour of Marble, tasting of natural flowers. Take every sort of pleasing flowers, as Violets, Cowslips, Gilly- flowers, Roses or Marigolds, and beat them in a Mortar, each flower by it self with sugar, till the sugar become the colour of the flower, then put a little Gum Dragon steept in water into it, and beat it into a perfect paste; and when you have half a dozen colours, every flower will take of his nature, then rowl the paste therein, and lay one piece upon another, in mingling sort, so rowl your Paste in small rowls, as big and as long as your finger, then cut it off the bigness of a small nut, overthwart, and so rowl them thin, that you may see a knife through them, so dry them before the fire till they be dry. Digby in his The closet of the eminently learned Sir Kenelme Digbie Kt. includes the following: "I conceive it will be exceeding good thus: when you have a strong Honey-liquor of three parts of water to one of Honey, well-boiled and scummed, put into it Lukewarm, or better (as soon as you take it from the fire) some Clove-gilly-flowers, first wiped, and all the whites clipped off, one good handful or two to every Gallon of Liquor. Let these infuse 30 or 40 hours. Then strain it from the flowers, and ei| ther work it with yeast, or set it in the Sun to work; when it hath almost done working, put into it a bag of like Gilly-flowers (and if they are duly dried, I think they are the better) hanging it in at the bung. And if you will put into it some spirit of wine, that hath drawn a high Tincture from Clove-gilly flowers (dried, I conceive is best) and some other that hath done the like from flowers and tops of Rosemary, and some that hath done the like from Cinnamon and Ginger, I believe it will be much the nobler, and last the longer. I conceive, that bitter and strong herbs, as Rosemary, Bayes, Sweet- majoram, Thyme, and the like, do conserve Meathe the better and longer, being as it were in stead of hops. But neither must they, no more then Clove-gilly-flowers be too much boiled: For the Volatil pure Spirit flies away very quickly. Therefore rather infuse them. Beware of infusing Gilly-flower in any vessel of Metal, (excepting sil|ver:) For all Metals will spoil and dead their colour. Glased earth is best." page 15 in the Prospect Books reprint Digby also includes a long recipe for "Sack with Clove-Gilly Flowers" on pages 16-18. The Accomplish'd lady's delight in preserving, 1675, includes: 165. To Pickle Clove-gilly Flowers for Sallets. Take the fairest Clove-Gilly-Flowers, clip off the whites from them, put them into a wide-mouth'd Glass, and strew a good deal of Sugar finely beaten among them, then put as much wine Vinegar to them as will throughly wet them, tye them up close, and set them in the Sun, and in a little while they will be fit for use. ----- Hesperides, or, The works both humane & divine of Robert Herrick, Esq. 1648 includes this poem that mentions them: Upon a Lady that dyed in child-bed, and left a daughter behind her. AS Gilly flowers do but stay To blow, and seed, and so away; So you sweetLady (sweet as May) The gardens-glory liv'd a while, To lend the world your scent and smile. But when your own faire print was set Once in a Virgin Flosculet, (Sweet as your selfe, and newly blown) To give that life, resign'd your own: But so, as still the mothers power Lives in the pretty Lady-flower. And on that note I'll end these selections. Johnna Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 18:54:39 -0400 From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" To: Christiane , Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Clove defined and symbolism On Apr 2, 2010, at 3:39 PM, Christiane wrote: <<< Thank you for looking up these things; I had a feeling that the meaning of cloves changed in the recipe from early period to later period, as tastes changed. >>> Could be, but what evidence is there to suggest that studding foods with spice cloves, which we know to have been called by the same name as the flower, but in an earlier use of the term, became deprecated, as programmers now call it, in favor of the usage of the term for the flower? In other words, while one could argue that the definition of the term "cloves gilofre" broadened to include the flower, is there really any evidence at all that the old usage simply went away? I mean, we've got evidence that spice cloves were stuck into foods; Le Menagier speaks in the 14th century of the difference between studding foods with cloves or ginger sticks, and larding, which he states refers to fat. He also speaks of sticking a clove and a piece of ginger into each nut in his compost recipe. He doesn't appear to be referring to flowers, and we still have examples of using cloves to stud various pastries, baked hams, etc. Why would the practice vanish and then reappear? <<< It would also make sense in an earlier period recipe to have a symbolism that was forgotten by later periods. And since the reference to pinks as "clove gillyflowers" didn't come until well into the Elizabethan era, and cooking with them tended to be a Jacobean/17th century practice, it makes even more sense that the original recipe was referring to the spice, not the flower. Instead of just strewing the dish with cloves, I wonder if one would garnish it the dishes by just putting three cloves in the center of each serving, to represent the three nails of the Crucifixion. >>> I believe even the 14th century Syrosye recipes instructs the cook to set therein cloves, which suggests a deliberate studding, and I'm not sure I buy the suggestion that flowers, no matter how nice they would look, taste or smell, would be covered by "set therein". "Lay thereon", maybe. When I did a redaction for the dish (15 years ago, I might add!) it was for perhaps 375 servings. I used powdered cloves... Another question that one might profit from asking is, when are these cherry dishes being eaten? I seem to recall one or more European sources referring to cherries being gathered in late June (feast of Saint John, I believe, which is consistent with my own experience of having a cherry tree in the back yard -- not that anything grows in New York City, of course! ;-) ). That probably _is_ within the same season for the flowers, but there is no real season for using the spice cloves. Under certain conditions that might make it logistically simpler. I can certainly see how using the flowers is a nice alternative, and possibly one pursued in period. I just don't see how it's demonstrably a better interpretation. Adamantius Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 08:07:08 -0700 From: edoard at medievalcookery.com To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Clove defined and symbolism The discussion of clove pinks and sticking foods with cloves brought this painting to mind. Still-Life (1552) Peter Aertsen http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/a/aertsen/stillife.html It's one of those "mysterious football-shaped things" (TM). In this particular case, it's been stuck with a flower. Food for thought, eh? - Doc Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 11:24:08 -0400 From: Gretchen Beck To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Clove defined and symbolism --On Monday, April 05, 2010 8:07 AM -0700 edoard at medievalcookery.com wrote: <<< It's one of those "mysterious football-shaped things" (TM). In this particular case, it's been stuck with a flower. Food for thought, eh? >>> I'd say it's a wafer, and the combination relates to the (I think) Mary visiting St Elizabeth scene behind it. (Jesus and John the Baptist in the womb). In this context, a flower makes sense. toodles, margaret Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 11:46:57 -0400 From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Clove defined and symbolism On Apr 5, 2010, at 11:24 AM, Gretchen Beck wrote: <<< I'd say it's a wafer, and the combination relates to the (I think) Mary visiting St Elizabeth scene behind it. (Jesus and John the Baptist in the womb). In this context, a flower makes sense. toodles, Margaret >>> It could be a wafer, and it might be significant to note that wafers were often skewered for transport and sale on the streets, meaning there would be a little hole in them, much of the time. I think it might be butter or cheese, though. Adamantius Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 13:11:12 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Clove defined and symbolism I was thinking the consensus was butter or cheese when we last discussed the painting. But of course one time one sees butter, one time cheese, but I don't see it as a wafer. Just to be contrary Food and Feasting in Art by Silvia Malaguzzi (Getty 2008) has this painting on page 134 and there the description reads: "The fish garnished with a carnation is a symbol of Christ. A fish is a traditional emblem of Christ as sacrificial victim, and its symbolism is emphasized here by the red flower." So is it a piece of fish that bears the marks of a press or griddle? She also identifies it as being Christ in the House of Martha and Mary. Johnnae Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 12:57:25 +1000 From: Raymond Wickham Subject: [Lochac] heres a lovely work on the origin of the carnation the pink and herbs references To: ok that didn't work here is the address The Garden History Society Gilliflower and Carnation Author(s): John H. Harvey Source: Garden History, Vol. 6, No. 1 (Spring, 1978), pp. 46-57 Published by: The Garden History Society Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/1586555 Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 14:07:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Huette von Ahrens To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Clove defined and symbolism I don't remember any previous discussion of the item in question. If there had been, I would have been part of it and I would have disagreed vehemently. The item in question is a bread roll, just as Dame Alys has mentioned. I have been racking my brain for its name for several hours now, but it is alluding me at the moment. Both Pieter Aertsen and his nephew, Joachim Beucklaer have used these bread rolls in several of their paintings. Usually they are wrapped in cloth and placed in a basket. Unfortunately, my computer is not letting me do good URLs for these, so here is what I have to show you, since I cannot add attachments to this message. http://bilddatenbank.khm.at/viewArtefact?id=33 Hopefully, this will show you a copy of Aertsen's Marktszene, painted somewhere between 1560/1565. http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/b/beuckela/index.html This is Joachim Beucklaer's web page on the Web Gallery of Art. Go to two paintings, the first is ten paintings down, called Market Scene. There is a basket with two of these rolls on the left side, just above the lady's arm. The second is at the bottom, called Woman Selling Vegetables. There are two baskets of these rolls on the right side of the painting, to the right of the man. These three instances show that these cannot be butter and, to me, do not look like cheese. I have seen rolls in my local bakery of a similar shape, but just cannot remember their name. I am sure that the decoration was impressed on the roll before they were baked. Huette Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 09:42:51 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Cloves / Gilliflowers was: Caudle spices After the last major discussion on the topic of cloves and those pesky gilliflowers or clove pinks, I kept an eye out for more on the topic. (I know the obsessive/compulsive reference librarian dies hard.) I was rewarded by coming across an article which appeared in Garden History. The author is John Harvey; he's the author of the book Mediaeval Gardens and numerous papers on plants and garden history. In this paper on "Gillyflower and Carnation" Harvey looks at the question of how old the plant is in Western European gardens. Instead of dating to ancient or classical times, Harvey writes "It now seems far more probable that the real carnation, the old double red clove, is the most modern of all the classical plants brought into cultivation before the great age of introductions." He also promises, "We shall deal later with the question whether, in the period 1386-1400, the word clowe-gilofre can have meant anything else than the spice clove." Harvey notes part of the problem in English is the plant has numerous synonyms. It doesn't turn up as Gilliflower in that spelling until 1535; it's also applied to a number of plants which doesn't help. William Turner in the mid-16th century certainly failed to be consistent in his various lists and books, compounding the confusion. Harvey traces the plant back through medieval plant lists and through paintings. When Chaucer writes: "Ther was eek wexing many a spyce, As clow-gelofre, and licoryce, Gingere, and greyn de paradys, Canelle, and setewale of prys," he was talking about spices. Harvey traces the word "clow-gelofre" etymologically back to its roots and notes that it must be the spice cloves in the 15th century and earlier. He does the same for all the other early quotations mentioned in the OED. After several pages of also tracing the plants, Harvey concludes "Neither gilofre nor gilliflower, in any spelling, occurs before 1500 as unequivocally the name of a garden plant." He believes the plant could not have been introduced much before 1500. "Contrary to general modern supposition, but in agreement with the views of Ruellius and Gerard, the Carnation is not an ancient but a relatively modern addition to the garden flora." Harvey, John H. "Gilliflower and Cranation." Garden History. 1978: V. 6, 1 (Spring), pp. 46-57. [The article can be found on Jstor.] What this article indicates is the English manuscript recipes that mention clow-gelofre and its many forms prior to 1500 must be indicating the spice and not the flower. Only after 1500, possibly quite later than 1500 in fact, would it be possible for it to be a flower. Johnnae llyn Lewis On Jul 10, 2010, at 12:52 PM, Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius wrote: <<< Gelofres is Cloves Gilofre. In some usages it may be the flower, a.k.a. the Clove Pink, but in this case it's probably the spice, cloves. Adamantius >>> Edited by Mark S. Harris gillyflower-msg 12 of 12