flowers-msg - 11/26/10

Period flowers. Growing flowers.

NOTE: See also the files: gardens-msg, gardening-bib, gardening-bks-bib, Gillyflower-art, lavender-msg, perfumes-msg, p-herbals-msg, roses-art, Palladius-art, rose-water-msg, rose-syrup-msg.

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NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I  have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 12:41:30 EDT
From: <SNSpies  at aol.com>
To: sca-arts  at raven.cc.ku.edu
Subject: Re: help with roses

An excellent book for the history of roses is:
Rose, Graham and Peter King.  "The Love of Roses:  From Myth to Modern 
Culture."  London:  Quiller Press, 1990.

Mistress Ingvild


Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 16:17:09 -0400
From: Warren & Meredith Harmon <silveroak  at juno.com>
To: sca-arts  at raven.cc.ku.edu
Subject: Re: help with roses

An incredibly helpful book for me is _The Random House Book of Roses_,
Roger Phillips & Martyn Rix, 1988, ISBN 0-394-75867-6.  I paid $27.50
down the street at the local botanical garden, along with a pamphlet on
the local Antique Rose Society (which is hiding in my house somewhere
right now...sorry, or I'd cite that one as well.  

-Caro


Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:31:38 -0400
From: Ron Charlotte <ronch2  at bellsouth.net>
To: sca-arts  at raven.cc.ku.edu
Subject: Re: help with roses

>A friend of mine is doing research on roses from pre-Roman times thru
>the 1600s and is looking for any documentation material. Could anyone on
>the list assist me in locating books or journal articles? Thanks.

You can try _Antique Roses for the South_ by William C. Welch (isbn: 
0-878333-732-7), which has a very good bibliography.  _Roses for Dummies_ 
by Lance Walheim (isbn: 0-7645-5031-4) discusses the subject pretty 
clearly, and has a lot of contact information for rose growers who favor 
the antiques and old garden roses. _Growing Old-Fashioned Roses_ by Barbara 
Lea Taylor is another good primer on the subject that has  a good bibliography.

         Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL
         ronch2  at bellsouth.net OR afn03234  at afn.org


Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:10:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jenne Heise <jenne  at mail.browser.net>
To: sca-arts  at raven.cc.ku.edu
Subject: Re: help with roses

>A friend of mine is doing research on roses from pre-Roman times thru
>the 1600s and is looking for any documentation material. Could anyone on
>the list assist me in locating books or journal articles? Thanks.

Well, if you are looking for documentation about period roses (as opposed to handbooks on rose-growing) there is some material in _The Scented Garden_ by Eleanor Rohde. 

Walafrid Strabo's Hortulus talks about Roses, so does Banckes' Herbal. I've never seen a copy of Crecenzi but if you go by the various books on medieval Gardens, he mentions Roses.

Two books to look at:
Landsberg, Sylvia. The Medieval Garden. (NY: Thames and Hudson, 1995)
Hobhouse, Penelope. Plants in Garden History: An Illustrated History of Plants and their Influence on  Garden Styles from Ancient Egypt to the Present Day. (London: Pavilion, 1992). 
 -- 
Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise	      jenne  at mail.browser.net


Subject: [Ansteorra] Re: A&S Question -Rose hips
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 16:35:40 -0500
From: "Nathan Jones" <bigbeartx  at msn.com>
Reply-To: ansteorra  at ansteorra.org

Joanna Montgomery wrote:
>I need to know how to harvest and prepare rose hips.  I know somebody out
>nthere knows what to do with them. I have access to a bunch if I get them
>quick.

Harvesting rose hips is easy.  When they are ripe in the Fall or Winter, you
pluck them from the bush.  Try to pick the hips that are the deepest red or
orange that you can find.  Preparing them is another story and I leave that
to Mari to go into if she desires.

However, there is no need to prepare rosehips to make them edible.  They can
be eated fresh off of the bush for a tangy treat.  They tend to be pretty
tart and tannic, much like a crabapple.  (Not that suprising since apples
and roses are cousins.) They are very high in vitimin C, higher than oranges
proportionately.  They can be dried and added to teas and such, or used
fresh.

If you want the hips for proprogation of roses, then that's also pretty easy
(sort of).  Pick the hips when ripe, label and store in the crisper drawer
of your refridgerator.  Keep them dark and cold for about six weeks.  Then
take them out and let them warm up for a few weeks.  You can remove the
seeds from the hips after you picked them, or after they have gone though
their first dormant period in the fridge.  Place them in baggies, or plant
them in a sterile medium, keep them a bit moist, and put them back into the
fridge.  [The purpose of this is that roses require a double dormancy in
order to sprout. Cold-Warm-Cold.]  Take the seeds out of the fridge when
they begin to sprout and either plant them in a sterile medium, or, if
you've already done that, place in a protected area outside.  When they have
grown enough to have a couple sets of true leaves, transplant into larger
containers.

If these are hips from last season, then they should be fine for harvesting
and will probably be dried and shriveled on the bush by now.  If they are
green hips from this past Spring's flush, I agree with Mari and I doubt that
they are ready for harvest.  Try to convince the owner not to prune them off
and leave them to ripen.  They should be ready about October.  (Oh, and if
you need a reason to convince the owner not to prune, let them know that
it's a bad time, the plant needs the reserves in that extra Spring growth to
help it get though the heat and dryness of the Summer.]

Giovanni di Cellini


From: "HICKS, MELISSA" <HICKS_M  at casa.gov.au>
To: "'sca-cooks  at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks  at ansteorra.org>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] And now- for something completely different!- ros
	e hips!
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 10:43:58 +1000 

> What part of the rose it it's hip?
> Phillipa

The seed pod left over from when the petals have fallen off the flower.  If
you don't "dead-head" your roses, the green base area swells and turns red
and contains seeds.

Mel.


Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 10:46:50 +1000
From: "Craig Jones." <craig.jones  at airservices.gov.au>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] And now- for something completely different!- ros e
 hips!
To: "'sca-cooks  at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks  at ansteorra.org>
Organization: Airservices Australia

An extra note:

Watch the hairs contained within the hip, they can act as a powerful
irritant on the skin and mucus membranes of some people.

Drakey.

>The seed pod left over from when the petals have fallen off the flower.  If
>you don't "dead-head" your roses, the green base area swells and turns red
>and contains seeds.
>
>Mel.


From: Liz / Cozit <cozit  at home.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Help with Rose hips
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 05:33:42 GMT

Some roses produce better rose hips than others... both in size/appearance and
in taste.

They're ripe when they're quite red as a rule.... the redder the better in
general, but I've had them a bit underripe and not thought them too bad... then
again, I do the same with blueberries and blackberries, sometimes the less ripe
in the berries is better :-)

Storage, I can't help you with.  I always had them off the plant only.  I
remember my Grandfather cutting and eating them well into the fall at least...
if not later.  He never harvested them, just picked as he wanted.

-Elisabeth

Stephen Vaught wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I've read several sources that mention the use of rose hips.  While my roses
> have produced nothing my neighbor's have exploded with the little buggers.
> I would like to harvest them but am unsure as to when they are "ripe", and
> how to store them.  Could someone shed some light?
>
> Thank you.
>
> Steve


From: Maggie Forest <maggie  at forest.gen.nz>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Help with Rose hips
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 20:22:12 +1300
Organization: ihug ( New Zealand )

On Fri, 16 Nov 2001 20:31:14 GMT, "Stephen Vaught"
<bsrvaught  at worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>I've read several sources that mention the use of rose hips.  While my roses
>have produced nothing my neighbor's have exploded with the little buggers.
>I would like to harvest them but am unsure as to when they are "ripe", and
>how to store them.  Could someone shed some light?

they should be bright red and fairly soft (how much depends on the
variety of rose). They're still ok if they start wrinkling a little,
but when they get really wrinkly and head into brown, they're past it.
Generally speaking, the more primitive the rose, the better the hip,
not just in size but in flavour. rosa rugosa is my favourite (but not
for picking!)

you can dry them in a food dehydrator, or even between kitchen paper
in the microwave. If you just leave them, they will go mouldy. I can't
see why you couldn't freeze them, although you may want to blanche
them off a little first. I've never done that - I've only ever used
fresh, or dried, or the powdered form you can buy in scandinavia for
drinks/soups.

/maggie


Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 00:33:05 -0400
From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenn Heise <jenne  at fiedlerfamily.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] rose color(s) in period?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks  at ansteorra.org>

> This made me wonder.Today we have roses in various shades and colors.
> Were all roses red in period or were there different colors? If so,
> which colors are recent and which were period?

Pink 'red' roses, damask (white) roses are the most mentioned. though I  
believe there are yellow roses and striped roses by the time of Culpeper. I'll check Parkinson.
-- 
-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne  at fiedlerfamily.net 


Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 14:40:39 GMT
From: "rtanhil  at fast.net" <rtanhil  at fast.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: rose color(s) in perios
To: sca-cooks  at ansteorra.org

'Apothecary's Rose' is supposed to date from the 15th
century, and it's a single rose (5 petals), only blooms once
(deadheading might produce a second bloom, or it might
not--never had that species to try), and is red with a
yellow throat.

Keep in mind that most species with medieval
names--Damascus, Eglantyne, etc.--are actually 19th century
hybrids named after medieval types.

Berelinde


Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 23:49:00 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Rose petal syrup
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

How about the Dover book on Rose Recipes?
Let's see--- Rose Recipes from Olden Times (Paperback)
by Eleanour Sinclair Rohde
</exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author- 
exact=Eleanour%20Sinclair%20Rohde&rank=-relevance%2C%2Bavailability% 
2C-daterank/002-4925771-1277620>

Johnnae

Sharon Gordon wrote:
> Does anyone make rose petal syrup?  I'd appreciate any recipes or
> advice and also info on canning it.
>
> Sharon
> gordonse at one.net


Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:30:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Marcus Loidolt <mjloidolt at yahoo.com>
Subject:[Sca-cooks] Fwd: re night flowering herbs/flowers
To: sca-laurels at anesteorra.org, sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Benedicte,
    Some one on one of these lists asked about night blooming flowers  
in period...
   Below is a list of such plants as mentioned in various period  
herbals...thanks to Mistress Leanore deVertabors, OP, and Dame Megan  
de Grinstead, OL. Neither of them are on these two lists..."too busy  
digging in the dirt to sit inside and type!!" from Dame Megan, dirt  
laurel....

   Abot Johann von Metten, poultry laurel....

Elliepeli at aol.com wrote:
   From: Elliepeli at aol.com
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:51:36 EDT
Subject: re night flowering herbs/flowers
To: mjloidolt at yahoo.com

     Night flowering plants are pollinated primarily by a moth,Most  
of the night flowers are scented
    Evening Primrose  (Oenothera bicennis)
   Goat Leaf Honeysuckle (Lonicera caprifo;ium )
   White Dittany(Dictammus albus)
   Woodruff(Galium ordoratum)
   Silverleaf Artimesia(Atimesia argentum)
   Eryngos(Eryngium maritimum)

   Santolina(also called Cotton Lavender---Santolinia chaecyparissus
   Tobacco(Nictotinea )This is period only for 16th century)
    Clary Sage (Salvia Sclarea)

   Garland .Sarah,The Herb Garden,New York Botanical Garden  
Institute, New York,1984
   ISBN 014046.690 8    see pgs 74-75

   Wells, Diana 100 Flowers and how they got their names,Past  
Times,Workman.New  York,1997,ISBN 1-56512-138-4  pgs 93,209-210

   Grieve,Margaret-A Modern Herbal (Dover Books,reprint1971 TSBN  
0-486-22798-7
   good info on cultivation-use only as jumping off point-uses very  
modern discriptions Linnean classifications-Where she quotes  
Pliny,Gerad or Culpepper-go to them not the Grieve summary

 Ellie


Date: Sat, 03 May 2008 22:33:55 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Roses to grow and cook with
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I bought Anne Jennings volumes on gardens when I was in the UK
in 2006. In Medieval Gardens she lists:
Rosa x Alba 'Alba Semiplena'   Common Name   White Rose of York
see
http://www.marthastewart.com/rosa-x-alba-semiplena? 
lnc=2f415422352ee010VgnVCM1000003d370a0aRCRD&rsc=collage_gardening_roses 
-and-flower-gardens_p6

for a picture
Rosa gallica var. officinalis    Apothecary's Rose
http://www.bbc.co.uk/gardening/plants/plant_finder/plant_pages/786.shtml
Rosa moschata                       Musk Rose
http://www.dkimages.com/discover/DKIMAGES/Discover/Home/Plants/ 
Ornamental-Groups/Shrubs/Rosales/Rosaceae/Rosa/Species-Roses/Rosa- 
moschata/Rosa-moschata-1.html
See also this list:
http://www.ravensgard.org/chimenedes/roses.html

Johnnae

David Walddon wrote:
> I am looking for a rose that will grow in the Pacific Northwest and
> will approximate a culinary rose from the Renaissance.
> Everything in the backyard is an edible and I need some flowers!
> Any ideas?
> Eduardo


Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 00:11:47 -0400
From: chawkswrth at aol.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Roses to grow and cook with
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

The Apothecary Rose will grow just about everywhere. It is a red that  
blooms in the Spring, with a double layer of petals. They smell heavenly!
They were and still are used for an amazing number of rose products,  
from rose hips to rose beads.

It is a rose that is almost older then time. I have two in my flower? 
beds right now. I live just outside of Birmingham, Alabama. You may  
think that South is dry, right? Think not...humidity is a live thing,  
here.

Roses are hardier then you think. Hybrids are the ones that are  
so...picky, as to their growing conditions.

Gallicas have been the same since they came from the Far East/India.  
They have journeyed far and long, though the Middle East, the  
Mediterranean and on into the British isles and beyond.
Roses are addictive. Trust me.

Your biggest problem will be controlling Humidity-born diseases. Black  
Spot and Powdery Mildew are the two biggies here. Check with your  
local Organic Gardening Groups to find out about organic controls  
(and let me know-I am always willing to listen to something that  
doesn't involve poisons)

BTW-there are a large number of Period Edible Flowers. Roses,  
marigold, pansy and violets are what floats to the top of my very  
tired brain at the moment. Again, check with your local Organic  
Gardening Group. They will know what works best for your climate.

Helen
Down to a dozen rose plants...dang knees....


Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 02:47:23 -0400
From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Roses to grow and cook with
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> BTW-there are a large number of Period Edible Flowers. Roses,  
> marigold, pansy and violets are what floats to the top of my very  
> tired brain at the moment. Again, check with your local Organic  
> Gardening Group. They will know what works best for your climate.

Calendula or pot marigold is edible. Signet marigolds are also  
edible, but I'm not sure if that variety is medieval. The others  
aren't poisonous, but most of them taste too strong to eat.

http://www.henriettesherbal.com/archives/best/1996/marigold.html

Other edible flowers are Pinks / carnations, elderberry flowers,  
bergamot, dandelion

A good many herbs have edible blossoms too.

Ranvaig


Date: Sat, 03 May 2008 23:49:01 -0700
From: "Rikke D. Giles" <rgiles at centurytel.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Roses to grow and cook with
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On 05/03/2008 07:39:48 PM, David Walddon wrote:
> Anyone from the PNW know if these grow well in our wonderfully wet
> climate? Thanks for the links. Have you used any of the below?

I live in the PacNW and I grow lots of roses.  I have about 30-40
varieties in the farm gardens right now.  Most roses grow just fine
here, although the fancier hybrids need lots of black rot and other
kinds of care.  But, you aren't talking about fancy hybrids.  All of
these roses grow great for me, with minimal to no spraying.  They are
wonderful.

Aelianora de Wintringham


Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 01:13:18 -0700
From: "Wanda Pease" <wandap at hevanet.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Roses to grow and cook with
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I've found them at Heritage Roses down by St. Paul, Oregon (not far south of
Portland).  The Growers specialize in a lot of the old rose verities
including climbers and Victorian huge bloom.  Remember that these roses tend
to bloom once a year instead of all year.  Since they are located in a curve
of the Willamette River, I'm suspecting that humidity and rain aren't a
problem.  Also, they smell heavenly!

Regina Romsey
OL, OP, Drachenwald/East, Now Proud Resident of the Laurel Kingdom of  
AnTir and the Pacific NorthWet 


Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 00:34:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Roses to grow and cook with
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

--- David Walddon <david at vastrepast.com> wrote:
> I am looking for a rose that will grow in the Pacific Northwest and
> will approximate a culinary rose from the Renaissance.
> Everything in the backyard is an edible and I need some flowers!
> Any ideas?
> Eduardo

I don't live in the PNW, but I do know that there is a huge rose garden in Portland, OR, which is also a test garden for all the big modern rose companies.  You might want to call them to get their advice.  Here is their website:

http://www.rosegardenstore.org/

There is also a rose hybridist in England called David Austin.  His roses are all hybridized fromvery old English rose types.  I have been told that his roses, while from old rose types, have been hybridized to resist some of the big problems that roses have, like mold, mildew, rust, and black spot.  To my mind, his roses would be close to what is period without the diseases/problems that roses can have problems with.  He does have distributors of his roses here in the US.  Here is his website:

http://www.davidaustinroses.com/american/

and here is his page on old roses which are still available as is:

http://www.davidaustinroses.com/american/Advanced.asp?PageId=1997

Huette


Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 12:14:02 -0500 (CDT)
From: jenne at fiedlerfamily.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Roses to grow and cook with
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> Anyone from the PNW know if these grow well in our wonderfully wet
> climate?

> Eduardo

Dog Roses will grow anywhere-- Rosa canina.
--  
-- Jenne Heise / Jadwiga Zajaczkowa


Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 10:38:35 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Question about dandelions...
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

<<< Are dandelions native to the Western Hemisphere, or were they brought over 
here by European settlers?  And if so, when? 
Maire >>>

Taraxacum officinale, the Eurasian dandelion, was imported into the New 
World during the early years of european settlement.  It has become the 
common dandelion of North America.  There are New World species of 
dandelions, but these are mostly supplanted by T. officinale.  I don't know 
of any reference to how the New World dandelions were used prior to the 
introduction of the Old World dandelion.

Bear


Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 14:40:35 -0500
From: "otsisto" <otsisto at socket.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Question about dandelions...
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Taraxacum officinale is native to Eurasia and was brought over to the
Americas somewheres around the 16th century as an herb. There are dandelions
indiginous to the Americas but I do not know them off hand.
Okay, looked it up and found one.
Taraxacum ceratophorum
http://www.amjbot.org/cgi/content/abstract/91/5/656

I think there is one that is found in California and is on the endangered
plant list.

The dandelion has been used as an herb in Europe and Asia for 100s of years.

De


Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 23:50:14 -0800
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Where to purchase period roses?

<<< So I have a list of Roses from Gerard.
I have the space all picked out.
Now I need to find out where to buy them.
I have searched on line.
Anyone have a source?
David >>>

http://www.roguevalleyroses.com/home.php

http://www.rosesofyesterday.com/ourroses.html

I'm sure there are others, possibly closet to you.
-- 
David Friedman
www.daviddfriedman.com


Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 19:17:27 -0800
From: Wanda Pease <wandap at hevanet.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Where to purchase period roses?

<<< So I have a list of Roses from Gerard.
I have the space all picked out.
Now I need to find out where to buy them.
I have searched on line.
Anyone have a source?
David >>>

http://www.heirloomroses.com/contact.htm

On the Willamette River in the area that has to be "The Eden at the End 
of the Oregon Trail"  (Near Aurora, Donald, and St. Paul Oregon

*Heirloom Roses, Inc.*
24062 NE Riverside Drive
St. Paul, Oregon 97137
Tel: (503) 538-1576
Fax: (503) 538-5902


Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 06:30:33 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Where to purchase period roses?

On Mar 10, 2010, at 1:41 AM, David Walddon wrote:
<<< So I have a list of Roses from Gerard.
I have the space all picked out.
Now I need to find out where to buy them.
I have searched on line.
Anyone have a source?
David >>>

Try
http://www.heirloomroses.com/index.htm
http://www.roguevalleyroses.com/home.php
http://www.rosemagazine.com/articles04/apothecary_rose/

There's a list here, but it may be outdated:
http://www.ravensgard.org/chimenedes/roses.html

Johnnae


Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 08:11:40 -0500
From: "Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps" <dephelps at embarqmail.com>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Where to purchase period roses?

Try
http://www.davidaustinroses.com/

Daniel


Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 12:57:25 +1000
From: Raymond Wickham <insidious565 at hotmail.com>
Subject: [Lochac] heres a lovely work on the origin of the carnation
	the pink and herbs references
To: <lochac at lochac.sca.org>

here is the address
The Garden History Society
Gilliflower and Carnation
Author(s): John H. Harvey
Source: Garden History, Vol. 6, No. 1 (Spring, 1978), pp. 46-57
Published by: The Garden History Society
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/1586555

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	flowers-msg	12 of 12