personas-msg - 10/6/94 Some persona examples and more about personas. NOTE: See also the files: persona-msg, persona-art, per-insanity-msg and per-lepers-msg, Persona-Build-art. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with seperate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the orignator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: Lord Stefan li Rous mark.s.harris@motorola.com stefan@florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: Canair James St. Aubyn Date: 14-Apr-90 09:40am Subject: Re: Greetings... Greeting gentile, I am Canair James St. Aubyn, only daughter and heir to Sir James St. Aubyn and the lady Evelyn of Hartingdon. I was born in December, Year of Our Lord 1385. I am the delight of my father and the despair of my lady mother. As a child I was far more interested in my fathers falcons and horses than ever my mothers needles and petty patiences. However, one bit of my gentle lady's training did sink in. I have a dab hand with herbs and simples. I was born in Wales near the Severn river where my father holds lands from his Grace, Henry V of England and France. I travel these lands in the company of my cousin Siobban and her mercenary husband (Pah!) Yost Zum Drachenstein. I am yet unmarried (which again is the despair of my lady mother) for my father continues to refuse all offers where I do not desire the other party. My lady mother says that he (my father) will be the death of me yet... (Jamie E., is interested in costuming, crafts, needleword, herbs, riding and falconry. She is also very interested in heraldry.) I remain, as always, Yr. Servant Canair James St. Aubyn From: Ioseph of Locksley Date: 13-Apr-90 09:11am Subject: Re: Greetings... Hm! Hobbies and persona sketch.....w-a-a-a-a-l let's see: Old Used Heraldic Gadfly (still a hobby! heheheh!) Musical instrument maniac (play 65 last count) Period trivia collector (with refs, please!) Persona: Ioseph of Locksley is a Bard...one of the last remaining in this year of 1645. Currently in exile from his native land of Scotland, he roams the Known World getting in and outof mischief. He is usually accompanied by his Lady Wife, Cherie Ruadh MhicRath, his Apprentice, Anerin y Peabodie, and some few retainers. In Scotland, his Clan waits for the Signal to rise against the Opressor (generic: pick one!) He occasionally sells his services as a Mercenary Rapier Master, and will write for hire. Those that meet him think him a Puritan, from the black leather he tends to wear, and the "sad" colours of his garments, butthis is an image he finds useful. His favourite lines are: "Thanks be to God for WE have got the arquebus, and THEY have not!" "Get a Cavalier to read it to you, m'Lord!" "Careful....I might decide to make you immortal..." "Want a cookie, M'Lady?" He brews Imperium Compound. He knows EVERYBODY. Sometimes he doesn't have a lick of sense, and his BS tolerance is incredibly low. He don't talk much, either, but will NEVER pass up a chance to rag FatHats and Heralds. --- On the subject of persona: 1. I would like to repeat my earlier point about the difference between having a persona and having a persona story. My impression is that people with elaborate persona stories often do not have a persona, or if they do are rarely in it--as demonstrated by their telling their persona story, which usually contains information that you would not tell to someone you had just met. What I have been arguing for for many years is that the game is more fun if we act in persona at an event--for which purpose the persona of "a fifteenth century English Merchant" is quite adequate, without a biography unto four generations. I have also argued that one of the things that is fun to do in the society is to try to find out (not invent) the things about your persona that let you do a convincing job (to yourself as well as others) of being him--what he would have believed, known, ate for breakfast, used for money, etc. David Friedman (Cariadoc) DDFr@Tank.uchicago.edu From: GILBERT@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU Date: 26 Apr 90 19:26:00 GMT Organization: Society for Creative Anachronism Greetings all from Richard Gilbert, I guess to be internally consistent I have to write this as Richard Gilbert and not Richard DeLacy, since it is on the subject of persona. By definition Richard DeLacy is unfamiliar with what we mean by persona, although of course he is familiar with role-playing - (He is an avid fan of the more modern Theatre - especially that hilarious bawd Shakespeare). For a moment let me digress for some background on my persona: Richard DeLacy, born late 16th century England - traveled to Court of Carolingia, took service in the Baron's Guard and eventually formed the more permanent bond to the Baron of becoming his Squire. That is it. But it is definitely a persona and without it, as I will explain I could not do many of the most fun things I do in the SCA. I think the key to this is considering exactly what a persona is. Arastorm and Will Linden might not be as far from each other as their postings might lead one to believe. Arastorm says that the SCA is based on personae while many others, Will included, say why do we need them? The SCA is based on what we actually _do_, or as someone said, on doing period things in period ways. I feel that the two are one and the same. Richard Gilbert can do many period things in period ways. For example, with a great deal more work, and a proper costume, I believe I could dance period dances in a period way. Furthermore, Richard Gilbert _enjoys_ period dancing. However, there are some things that Richard Gilbert _could_not_do_ in a period manner. The best examples are fighting and fencing. Assuming (for argument's sake) that we knew and used period technique in these two activities, Ric Gilbert couldn't do them. Ric Gilbert is: 1) afraid of being hurt (I hate pain) and 2) afraid of hurting other people Ric Gilbert _is_ however, a good SCA fencer and a beginning fighter. I enjoy fencing and fighting both. Richard DeLacy, however, enjoys dueling. There is a difference. I recall a few years ago at a fencing tourney The Sir Michael of York slipped a blade under my guard and tip-cut my throat. A "kill" by our rules. As I fell however, I had a momentary vision of the blood leaping in spurts from my throat and the pain involved in a real blow of this nature. It served to remind me of what we are recreating. Now Richard DeLacy is not a bloodthirsty individual - but he enjoys two violent sports. He enjoys the andrenaline rush of combat. Mundane fencing is not nearly as interesting to me simply because the stakes are unimportant. The stakes in a duel are much more interesting. Anyway, I have rambled slightly off target. What I am trying to say is really an answer to Will Linden's question "Why do they need personae to do things? Why do they need persona to fight, to dance ... to do all the fascinating things we do?" My answer is that persona _are_ necessary - Not elaborate stories about where we are from, but the mind-set of a medieval individual. Without this mind-set we cannot do _any_ actual creative recreation of period arts. We might completely and accurately reproduce a garment of the period, or accurately use a fencing maneuver from George Silver, but in order to make a change in either - to refit the garment so it fits us,or change the maneuver in order to compensate for an opponent's action - or more strongly to change the garment so we like it better or vary the maneuver to be "more effective" we need the guidance of the persona, the medieval viewpoint, to have any hope of finishing with a garment or maneuver "in a period style". In sum, there are two reasons that we need personae. First, the less concrete, because while we mundanely enjoy recreating things, there are things which only our personae actually enjoy once recreated. This explains not only fighting (and I don't want to meet the person who mundanely enjoys maiming people) but also those period artforms which produce mundanely hideous things, bagpipes for example :-) :-) :-) And the second reason, more concrete, is that the persona as a mindset allows us to think like a medieval person and in so doing have a better chance at recreating the middle ages accurately. In service to my friends, Richard Gilbert actor of the role of Richard DeLacy, Guardsman of Carolingia and Squire to Sir Patri Du Chat Gris From: ctj!sgj (S. Gwen Johnson) Persona and reality. Well, my persona does and has a lot of stuff I never will. Although I looked very seriously at building a scaled down, fully functional version of the Gokstad Ship as my master's thesis. Never did go for my master's so it didn't matter tha I couldnt' afford to build it even if I had. Awilda, on the other hand, does own a longship. Awilda also sleeps in a Viking tent with carved tent poles, but I have to make do with a nylon mushroom. Awilda has been to Miklagard, and Vinland, and lives in Iceland currently. I've been off the North American continent, but only to the Caribean. Awilda would be rather disturbed at the sight of tourquoise houses and poinsettias, I liked them. I, on the other hand, would be rather disturbed if I had to carryout bloodfeud, a undertaking that Awilda would perform assidiously as a necessary social duty. (How else do you punish people who refuse to live by the law? No prisons in Iceland.) On the other hand, Awilda nad I do share ideas about a variety of things. In Iceland, women had considerably more rights than Contintal women, which is why Awilda decided to settle there. Also, they didn't burn anybody over religion, which also appealed, as Awilda is perfectly willing to worship whatever god she can get the best deal from (and has picked up a few Christian and Greek gods to add to her pantheon). This attitude seems perfectly sensible to her, but the Christians don't agree... And Awilda and I do have similar attitudes about slavery: its perfectly reasonable to force people who commit crimes to labor to compensate society for the damage they've done. But Awilda considers prisoners of war to appropriate slave material too. I agree, prisoners of war are generally put to work in the United States, the difference is, they can be traded back to where they came from, at the worst they have to wait until the end of the war to gain their freedom. For Awilda such an arrangement is permanent, unless the owner (an individual, not a governemnt) should choose to emancipate them. I picked Vikings because they were fun, but I've also tried out a variety of other persona possiblities. I have costumes ranging from kimono to cotehardie in my closet. Even an Itlaian Rennaissance. But I find I have to play a persona who's actually reasaonably close to myself in atttitudes to be comfortable. And so the cotehardie and Italian costumes rarely see the light of day, even though they are some of my best garb. I'd rather bum around in a mangy kimono being an untouchable entertainer than go through all the hassle of getting dressed up in formal kimonos and formal samurai manners. It also allows me to play games with the samurai persona. You can tell who's an Oriental persona, and who's just round eye in drag by their reaction when I hit the dirt kowtowing to them. Americans are rather disturbed and want me to stand up and talk to them. Japanese persona take it as their due. So far, nobody's taken it as their due. But my Japanese persona is different from my Viking persona. Awilda is a respectable member of her society and subscribes to her society's mores. Suyesumuhana has opted out of her society, a very dangerous thing, but more fun. Who wants to be a baby factory wrapped up miles of red tape and correct etiquette? Life for Suyestumuhana is easy: Agree to whatever they say, and when they aren't looking, do what you want to do. From: jesup@cbmvax.commodore.com (Randell Jesup) Date: 15 May 90 19:48:26 GMT Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA ctj!cjohnson@WB3FFV.AMPR.ORG writes: >Then there are the people who become their persona. Tristan Alexander has >completely abandoned his mundane name and uses his SCA name professionally. >he's an artist, and all his works are signed Tristan. His SCA persona does not >differ significantly from his mundane persona, the mundane has been abandoned. Eofn, Baron Concordia, is similar. I knew him for many months before I knew he had a name other than Eofn. If you call for him at work (back when he worked at GE) you asked for Eofn. The only reason I remember his mundane name is to find his number on the phone book. (His mundane name is George Williams.) He's still called Eofn even though he's no longer very active. -- Randell Jesup, Keeper of AmigaDos, Commodore Engineering. {uunet|rutgers}!cbmvax!jesup, jesup@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com BIX: rjesup Common phrase heard at Amiga Devcon '89: "It's in there!" From: sgj@slc1.brl.mil (S. Gwen Johnson) Date: 29 Aug 90 17:40:19 GMT Organization: Paladin.aberdeen.md.us Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Actually, combining Irish and German personas strikes me as being quite easy. The lady ought to think about practical things like what kind of costume is she capable of making? And what kind of clothes would she be comfortable wearing? Eary period is easy and cool (shorts are period for male Vikings)Later period, like Bohemian Rennaissance tends to be warm and expensive (I rarely where my velvet any more, I dislike heat stroke) So, here are some thoughts that ocurred to me. Early period, starting with Hengist and Horsa, Saxons and Frisians (a couple of kinds of Germans) started settling in England. Germans and Scandinavians continued raiding and settling in Ireland and Britain for severl hundred years. And since Vikings traveled a lot, they sometimes came back with foreigners as friends, crew, or thralls, and sent they settled in a lot of different places, this can be an excuse to combine almost any two cultures you like. The Dublin was the Viking kingdom in Ireland, but there raids covered teh entirety of the island. I saw a map of Vinking invasions in Ireland and the entire map was laced with read. Nowadays most Irish rivers aren't considered navigable to any extent, but the Viking ships only drafted one meter and could be portaged, the Irish rivers took them everywhere they wanted to go. Moving up in time, pilgrimage routes led through Germany, either to Italy for ships, or overland to Constantinople. Read "Memoirs of a Medeival Woman" the true story of a real (and slightly crazy) Englishwoman. Not all pilgrims are pious (see the "Canterbury Tales"), and women might go on pilgrimage as a way to escape the drudgery of household life and the dominance of their menfolk. Also possible are Hanseatic traders. They eventually monopolized the Baltic trade and traded in a lot of other places as well. Imagine a Hanseatic trader coming home with an Irish wife, or having an illegitimate Irish offspring. Then there are the univesities that started getting founded around 1200. The University in Prag (I've forgotten it's name) was one of the first, earliest great universities of Europe. Prag was the captial of Bohemia a great rival to Italy for wealth and knowledge during the Rennaissance, but is usually overlooked by SCAfolk. Bohemia is now part of Czechoslovakia, but it's rulers and upper class were heavily influenced by German things, especially as time wore on, and the HOly Roman Empire (of which Bohemia was a part) came to dominate much of Europe's politics. Being Holy Roman in the later period gives plenty of options as well, as the Hapsburg family came to power in not just the Empire, but Spain (and briefly Portugal), the Netherlands, Italy, and so forth. If you take a persona with any kind of money or education, it would be very easy for them to get involved in the trade, politics, or wars of the time. This is jsut what I can come up with off the top of my head, hope it gives you some ideas. Awilda Halfdane Bright Hills, Atlantia sgj@slc1.brl.mil From: Taras Date: 13-Feb-91 10:02pm Subject: Russian Persona Sources For those that have asked for sources of information for a Russian persona... Where they came from: A HISTORY OF THE VIKINGS - REVISED EDITION, Gwyn Jones, Oxford University Press, 1984. See section III, 'The Viking Movement Overseas', Chapter 4, "The Movement East: The Baltic Lands, Russia, Byzantium". Generic history: A HISTORY OF RUSSIA, John Lawrence, available in Mentor and Meridian editions, I have the 6th Edition, 1978, Meridian. RUSSIA AND THE GOLDEN HORDE, Charles J. Halpern, Indiana University Press, 1985. "Grattez le Russe et vous trouverez le tartare" Scratch a Russian and find a Tatar - attributed to Napolean. Generic culture: MEDIEVAL RUSSIA'S EPICS, CHRONICLES, AND TALES, Serge A. Zenkovsky, (Revised and enlarged edition) 1974, Vanderbilt University, available as a Dutton Paperback, #D363. Excellent glossary and chronology - brief and succinct, as well as some of the more usual tales and some history behind them. Parts of Russian that my persona comes from: TO CAUCASUS - THE END OF ALL THE EARTH, Sir Fitzroy Maclean, 1976, Little, Brown, and Co. See Chapter 12, "The Land of Georgia" The Russian approach to the Chivalraic Legend: THE HEROIC BALLADS OF RUSSIA, L. A. Magnus, LL. B., 1921, reprinted by Kennikat Press, 1967. See the section on the Bogatyri. Also a good section on personal names in Medieval Russia in the Appendices. Hope this has been of some help.... Taras Stephan Karanczay From: dmb@inls1.ucsd.edu (Doug Brownell) Date: 12 Apr 91 22:47:52 GMT Organization: Institute for Nonlinear Science Greetings unto the Rialto from Thomas Brownwell in the sunny climes of Calafia. Greetings especially unto Katherine of Constantinople! One of the threads that appeared a number of months ago dealt with how does one reconcile the fact that an Italian Renaissance persona may very well be speaking with an 11th century Celtic persona. The most practical explanation of how to proceed was to realize that most early europeans would never have known that such a person as they were conversing with shouldn't be there with them. In fact, it would be perfectly reasonable for a Celt and an Elizabethan to treat one another as if they were from another country (geography aside. Im talking about cultural matters, like who's king, what might be on the dinner table, etc). It was 'common knowledge' that there were many backward cultures still hanging around europe, and many advanced cultures just over the horizon, so it is no problem that someone might know about muskets while another couldn't hold one because they won't be invented for another 200 years. Applying this to marriage in persona, one would only have to be aware that the other came from another country, not another time, and the rest would follow. For people who really get hung up on this, I don't know what to say. For myself, I would have no problems, and as a 20th century person researching the middle ages would probably find it actually more interesting having someone around who was not always going to be interested in the same things as I. As to whether or not to be married in persona, all I can say is that my wife and I consider ourselves to be married in persona (we joined the SCA after we were married). For those who have been active in the Society, and then meet someone to marry, I don't know what to suggest, but would myself take on a married persona. Douglas M. Brownell | Thomas Brownwell Institute for Nonlinear Science, R-002 | Barony of Calafia University of California, San Diego | Kingdom of Caid La Jolla, CA 92093 | | Anachronist (noun): Internet: dmb@inls1.ucsd.edu | Out of time; dbrownell@ucsd.edu | Gotta go! From: troll@morpheus.std.com (Dr. H. Lecter) Date: 13 May 91 15:17:42 GMT Organization: The Mindgame Corporation SAUNDRSG@qucdn.queensu.ca (Graydon) writes: >The recent discussion of how one stays in persona seems to have jogged >something loose in my brain (not always a beneficial occurrence! :] ) [tokens as'triggers' for persona] >Any of the fisher-folk do this? comments on effectiveness? thoughts? >Non-token based(i.e. nothing tangible involved) tactics? > >Graydon Besides the 'triggers' (my word) of dressing up and carrying a blade - two things I rarely do in my non-SCA life, there are a few things. I, both in persona and out, am Jewish. The modern medoesn't have to fear any persecution - the period me (Yevsha) does. So Yevsha wears a small cross. This is something I wouldn't do. Also, Yevsha speaks with a Russian accent, especially when telling stories, and peppers his speech with 'tovarich', 'ya hachu (I want...)', and 'spaceba' [pardon my phonetic spellings]. *I* don't speak a word of Russian ;-). Hope this helps, --Alexander Yevsha From: garyp@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Gary Lee Phillips) Date: 14 May 91 15:41:51 GMT Organization: Kansas State University troll@morpheus.std.com (Dr. H. Lecter) writes: >In article <9105081216.aa11670@mc.lcs.mit.edu> SAUNDRSG@qucdn.queensu.ca (Graydon) writes: >>The recent discussion of how one stays in persona seems to have jogged >>something loose in my brain (not always a beneficial occurrence! :] ) > [tokens as'triggers' for persona] >>Any of the fisher-folk do this? comments on effectiveness? thoughts? >>Non-token based(i.e. nothing tangible involved) tactics? >> >>Graydon Greetings good gentles all- Although I am rather new at SCA, I have found that certain things help me maintain persona, (throwbacks to my drama days) 1: Take some time and think about your persona before you start the event. 2: Find a word that for you, sums up your persona, Then use it before you start and when you feel yourself slipping. (My persona is highland Scot so the brough(sp?) is best summed up by the word "auch" as an expletive. This may seem silly but it rarely fails to bring the persona to me. 3: Find something that is out of place in period, and explore it from as period point of view. The hard part for me is to lose the persona at the end of the day. My lady taught me a trick for this too. Say the following with a southern accent: "The beer is in the truck." It never fails! No this is not saying there is a large carnivorous beasty in the truck, no matter what the heralds may say! @8^) Duncan MacLeod Garyp@ksuvm.matt From: sbloch@euclid.ucsd.EDU (Steve Bloch) Date: 15 May 91 18:15:09 GMT Unto the Rialto doth Joshua ibn-Eleazar send greetings! And Steve Bloch says "Hi, y'all!" Yves (or more likely Rick) quotes Cariadoc (or more likely David): >"The essential thing is not adding topics specific to your persona's time >and place, but deleting the ones that are specific to the twentieth >century. That requires a little attention, but no additional knowledge -- >most of us already know which of the things we talk about are not period. >Once you have done that, there are lots of things around you -- the dinner >you are helping to cook, the beauty of the lady you are flirting with, the >skill or clumsiness of the fighters you are watching -- that you can talk >about with no historical knowledge or acting ability." (Cariadoc) and replies: >I'd like to make a type distinction regarding speaking in persona. >Let's have commenting and conversing. Commenting: talking about what's >going on around you at the Event - a simple effort to avoid modern topics >and vernacular. You mention several topics above. Conversing: what one's >persona would talk about were they in their own time and area. > >What WOULD Yves talk about in the above definition of a conversation? He >might mention the Great Schism (if it was *called* that then) or perhaps >he's heard of Petrarch (if *he* was called that then). Those would be >'current' events for Yves. I suspect this is a misconception. What percentage of your everyday speech involves world politics, famous writers and philosophers, etc? Probably less than 5%. Now imagine you live in a society without rapid mass communication, in which you just don't HEAR about most world politics, and much of what you DO hear about doesn't affect your life. How much lower would that percentage be? The sort of Great Events that get into the history books are NOT the stuff of normal conversation. Real people talk about cooking dinner, about the beauty of the person they're flirting with, about the stuff they were drooling over at Merchants' Row today, about their neighbors, about what they're going to wear tonight... all of which is relatively time-invariant, and so can be discussed in persona. It's really fairly easy to delete specifically 20th-century references from your conversation. After a few stock euphemisms are agreed upon for unavoidable 20th-century topics (and these euphemisms should be chosen by FUNCTIONAL similarity! Medieval people do not "use far- speakers" or "ride a dragon", they "send a messenger" and "ride in a cart") most of your speech can be left alone. After a few hours' practice, you'll find yourself noticing when you NEED to say some- thing out of persona; if I've been speaking in persona and need to drop it, I instinctively lower my voice about 10 dB. After the minimal step of deleting 20th-century references, the next reasonable step is adding "thous", "forsooths", and stock phrases such as Cariadoc's "but Allah alone knoweth all." The primary effect of these is to distinguish between your 20th-century self and your medieval self; to remind yourself who you are today. And it adds atmosphere to everyone else's experience. (It will, of course, irritate some people if your use of "thou" and "ye" is grammatically incorrect. If they are at all gracious about it, they will simply assume you are an ignorant provincial and try to ignore the bad grammar.) What's much harder is simulating Medieval attitudes and mindsets. Again, this does not mean knowing which Caliph deposed which in what year, it means approaching practical and moral problems the way your persona would. I don't know how to do this; my best guess is by immersing oneself in lots and lots of primary written sources, especially fiction or journals by ordinary people. On the negative side, this takes a lot of time. On the positive side, it's fun. Stephen Bloch Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib >sca>Caid>Calafia>St.Artemas sbloch@math.ucsd.edu Goals "If anybody else has goals to top mine, I should like to hear them. I'll add to my list." (Wulfgar Silberbar) My current goal is to make being in persona something that is understood and perceived as one of the available options by most people in the Society. I have been working on it in an organized fashion for about five years, and I figure another five or ten ought to do it. Cariadoc DDFR@Midway.UChicago.Edu From: storm@hlafdig.stonemarche.ORG (Arastorm the Golden) Date: 12 Jun 91 15:09:32 GMT Organization: The Internet I want to put my two coppers in on the idea of "acting" as being needed for the playing of persona. First, I want to say that I don't camp in the enchanted ground. Tried it once, didn't like it. I always do my best to stay in persona and couldn't take the stress of feeling that I was constantly being watched to see if I was doing it. That in and of itself wrecked the atmosphere I try to surround myself with. -Cariadoc, I'm sorry if this was inadvertant on your part, but it did happen, and if you want to write privately, maybe we can work out the details of why it did. It is the same as the argument against authenticity police. Having someone say something is not period, isn't period. That's why I think we should separate our events into those aimed at doing the middle ages, and those aimed at studying them. (I would be hard put to decide which is more stimulating, a good discussion of things medieval, or a good event. On the other hand, a mixed one doesn't even come in a distant third.) When I am at a camping event, I have lots to do: cooking, cleaning, dressing wounds (if we can dignify first aid by that name), heck, keeping the fire going is quite time consuming. But I'm doing it because it's neat. I talk to people while I'm doing it, and it feels good. (By the way, if setting up your camp is going to take more than an hour, I strongly suggest that you pack a camp tunic or gown near the top so you can wear it while setting up camp. While I would never want to send someone back to their camp in tears, I am sure that I would remind anyone I saw who was not actively pulling poles from a car, etc. that the rules of the SCA are for people on site to be in garb. It's the rules, and more than that, walking around in T shirt and jeans is a major slap in the face to everyone else who is playing by those rules. I realise that by saying this I appear to be siding with some rude people, but I have gotten VERY tired of having the people who are defending the rules of the SCA attacked, and those who spoil events for hundreds of people around them by pure laziness take the high moral stance of innocent victims.) But back to my original point...) It is much easier for me to do this ("campin" in persona) because I have chosen to live in the "Dark Ages". These are appropriate activities for a noble woman in that period. If I were a Tudor Countess, I would have to have servants who would dress me, prepare and serve my food, etc. Now, this would also be fun. And I don't think it is impossible to find folk who would find serving a Countess in that way fun. Personally, one of the greatest moments at Pennsic 4 (if not my whole SCA career) was preparing the bath (including heating the water in a constant rain) for Duchess Diana.{ Of course, it wouldn't be fun if the lady one was serving treated you like excrement, but that is never what we are talking about.} When two modern people decide to play lady and servant, it is a GAME that the two of them have decided to play, and both are having fun. What wouldn't be as fun for me would be trying to maintain the image of a rennaisance lady with no servants- I think it would require one of those notorious SCA persona tales explaining how this anomally could exist. ...So I do early period. For those of you who haven't watched Cariadoc and I for... well, since I was a new member and he was already a legend, you don't know that one of our ongoing discussions is about persona stories. He doesn't like them, I do. (warning: that WAS an oversimplification.) But I think that I have figured out WHY. You see, for me, as Arastorm, when someone comes into my home, I feed them, make sure they are comfortable, then ask them about themselves: where are you from? Who's your family (do I know anyone you know)? What are you doing in this area? If I know them, I ask "how's the wife and kids?" type questions. That's me. It's also perfectly appropriate for a Saxon lady. On the other hand, I really can't see either David or Cariadoc being interested in this (what I would assume he considers) trivia. A guest in his home would (after being made comfortable) be amused by polished tales, or participate in discussions of philosophy, theology, politics, or something else elevated. He probably doesn't care who you are or where your people are from. For all I know, it may be rude in his culture to ask such questions. It is this difference that led to years of discussions between us on whether telling "persona stories" at events was appropriate. (As all good Rialtans know, Cariadoc is only marginally aware that his marriage is an impossibility. As a Saxon, I don't think I'd dare get into a marriage where I didn't know the family, bloodline, history, etc of my prospective mate. I certainly won't encourage my children to enter into such dangerous pairings.) This is why I must encourage people to study enough to know the basics of their own culture, and the basics of mainstream medieval culture (if they are not the same). (This is why I am working on the persona guide series- and I am learning far more about printers and such delays than I ever wanted to know.) If I see a noble lady carrying her own water, I will probably assume that either she is carrying it for someone of higher rank, or that she has fallen on hard times. (If I see her carry it into a camp where fighters are standing around chaffing about fighting, and not helping her, I will probably think very unflattering things about them- never knowing that this may well have been a system worked out by them before the event.) At any rate, I don't think it takes any acting ability to stay in persona at events- camping or otherwise. You do what you do, while when you join the SCA you need to learn some new ettiquettes- for example, how to eat with only a knife and maybe a spoon, it doesn't take acting to eat. We are REALLY eating- even if we are using our fingers. We are really cooking- even if the fire is started with flint and steel rather than matches. Acting in the SCA is what the mummers (and maybe the Byzantine courtiers) do. Arastorm Lady of Stormgard rom: Dale@sol.cs.wmich.edu (Dale Gee) Date: 13 Jun 91 06:42:08 GMT Organization: Western Michigan Univ. Comp. Sci. Dept. storm@hlafdig.stonemarche.ORG (Arastorm the Golden) writes: > The question was asked: who wants to be a peasant? > Well, not me, but there certainly are those who do. And >personally, if use of quarterstaves would be given it's own niche >(as fencing has), I think I would love, as a noble, to watch >those who do want to use the staves, spar at fairs, or over >in their own lists at the sides of tournaments. > The SCA is here to recreate the middle ages, and thank >god for those who want to play peasants. If the safety considerations >can be answered, by all means, let us not bar an appropriate >activity from those who have chosen different persona than ourselves. > Arastorm > Lady of Stormgard We in House Mendicus go out of our way to be peasants. In fact the lower on the social order we can the better. There is one fellow in our house who has the distiction of being known as Lord Slyme, Taking the personal of a non-noble type can be fun. Sometimes the social climbers and peer wannbe's get shook up by it. Some things seem a little different. Make new garb and then spend time distressing it, so it looks old. Lots and lots of fun. Learning how to grovel. Having the pleasure of being stepped on by royalty. More people in the SCA should try this kind of personal. On a side note. Anstrom mentioned about servants in another post. At pensic 12 I was strapped for money and hired my self out as a servant to a camp from the east kingdom. The fed me and I hauled armor to and from the battle field. Fected water and helped around camp. They allowed me to have free time during the battles and the evenings was my own. It worked out quite well for both of us. I think they also like being able to flaut they had a servant. J.P. McCarthy House Medicus (the beggars guild) From: ddfr@quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman) Date: 14 Jun 91 15:12:31 GMT Organization: University of Chicago Arastorm raises the question of our differing views of persona stories, and suggests that it reflects differing personal styles--she likes to gossip with strangers, I like to argue philosophy with them. I have no quarrel with her description (I can't--my wife agrees with her), but I do not think it is a complete explanation of the disagreement. If the normal persona story were the sort of thing appropriate in Arastorm's context--the sort of thing that we mundanely tell strangers about ourselves when we are getting to know them--I would have no objection to it. But, in my experience, the typical persona story has one or more of the following problems: 1. It is elaborate and implausible, designed to give the author an excuse for combining lots of things that would not have been combined in the real Middle Ages and/or to show off the author's ability as an amateur novelist. 2. It is an attempt to claim credit for imagined rather than real accomplishments ("and in the crusade I slew dozens, and held the gate of the castle single handed. Why aren't I in the tournament today? Well, I'm planning to authorise just as soon as I can get my armor together.") One of the nice things about the Society is that it is real; this approach turns it into the game of two children inventing stories about their glorious deeds. 3. It is used as a substitute for both real persona and real conversation. When we meet a stranger and get talking about ourselves, our histories come out in bits and pieces as they relate to what we are talking about. But a persona story gets "told" in a way in which real histories normally are not. And the person who says "my mother was a gypsy and my father an albigensian, and they moved to Mongolia in order ..." is generally not thinking about what the person described would really be like, how he would view his own history, etc. To take an obvious example, a real Albigensian, meeting a stranger in a kingdom where most of the population appeared to be Christians, would be very hesitant about announcing his religious affiliation--unless, perhaps, he was a powerful noble with a lot of friends. But none of that--none of the "being your persona" which I regard as one of the really fun elements of the SCA--appears in the normal persona story. I guess my view is that it is appropriate to have a persona story, to know it, but not under most circumstances to tell it--just to let bits and pieces come out as appropriate. My favorite example is a conversation with Armand de Sevigny. I had been telling William the Marshall stories and Armand mentioned, in an offhand sort of way, that when he was a young man he had once met the Marshall. It was entirely convincing, and added depth and believability to Armand's role. I read a comment by a writer to the effect that an author should know things about his characters that never appear in the book--it makes them more three dimensional in his own mind, and thus improves their portrayal in the book. A good persona story seems to me to be analogous to that. Cariadoc From: rhe6@quads.uchicago.edu (mindy miriam rheingold) Date: 5 Aug 91 22:33:28 GMT Organization: University of Chicago Here follows a brief guide for playing persona within--and without, if you desire--the Enchanted Ground. Though this will not be as detailed as I first planned, it will, I hope, alleviate any last ingering qualms people have about visiting the Enchanted Ground, as well as answer such oft-asked questions as: "Is it alright if my clothes don't match my persona's time/country"; "Does it matter if I don't know much about my persona's period"; "Does it matter if I really don't have a persona"; "How do I deal with people whose personas are from different times?"; "How do I find out if something is appropriate for the Enchanted Ground" and "What about alternate personas?" Again, please me completely responsible for what I post about the Enchanted Ground (Sorry, forgot to typ "Hold me responsible," and please don't be offended if I put forth persona philosophies that differ or conflict with yours. I would also like to thank all the people who have written such nice things to me about the Enchanted Ground postings. I look forward to meeting/talking with you at Pennsic (for those who don't know me, I am of medium height, full figure, average looks, pale skin, wavy long brown hair, usually wearing early 15th century French stuff or late 15th century Italian stuff). And for those who asked, "Gingibere erratum scriborum est" is latin for "Ginger is a scribal error," literally "Ginger is an error of the scribes." Ginger IS period, of course, I just don't like it much and fuss when a recipe calls for it. PLAYING PERSONA Sometimes called "being in persona," playing persona is one of the main, if not the main reason the Enchanted Ground came into being. Playing persona means pretending to be a medieval (or renaissance, if you're one of those decadent late period afficianados) with no knowledge of or contact with the modern world. Playing persona can be described as a combination of historical recreation and on-going improvisational theater. It's lots of fun. The main things to remember when playing persona is that, although you know all about your persona, your persona knows nothing of your existance or of anything modern. Paradoxically, your persona doesn't know she is a persona. Another main thing ("The two--no, the three main things...") to remember is that your knowledge is different than your persona's knowledge, even if they both know about some of the same things. Mindy and Madeleine both know about the Black Plague, but Madeleine knows it is caused by bad air and the wrath of God, while Mindy knows it was brought on by infected fleas on infected rats. So, while playing persona, you are pretending, among other things, not to knw of your own (modern) existance, and to ignore all the things that your persona could not know. (You can't get around this by making your persona a mystic or a clairvoyant. Medieval mystics did not see visions of you watching Monty Python and eating Haagen Daas Deep Chocolate Fudge; they saw God or the angels or belching dragons devouring mankind.) Paradoxically, though, (Jeez, Mindy, enough with the paradoxes!) your enjoyment of persona playing and your ability to play persona depends, to a large extent, to your own (modern) perceptions and knowledge. After all, you have created your persona, and your modern self is always lurking there, behind your persona. There- fore, any blatantly non-medieval stuff in your environment, be it conversational or physical, hampers your ability to and enjoyment of playing persona, because it nudges (or jerks) the modern you from the background into the forefront. If Madeleine Reynaud des MilleRoses sees a chocolate chip cookie or hears the Moose Song, she'd just think, "What a strange and unusual sweet," or "My minstrels never sing anything like that, Praise Our Lady." But Madeleine can never be just Madeleine, since she is created and informed by Mindy Rheingold from Chicago, who finds that chocolate chip cookies and the Moose Song, good and noble as they are, make it harder to pretend that she is Madeleine Reynaud des MilleRoses. This is all a bit like acting, especially method acting. When you are on stage playing Lady MacBeth, you ARE Lady MacBeth, to a certain extent. But if the messanger doesn't enter on time or MacBeth skips five lines ahead or you forget the dagger, the part of your brain that is still you and not Lady MacBeth has to kick into gear to rectify the situation, while at the same time you still need to be Lady MacBeth. (This is partly why actors are all nuts and like nothing better than to sit around relating past theater horrors: "I remember when I was playing Jill in "Second Shepherds" and the batteries fell out of the mechanical sheep right on stage." This actually happened to me once. But I digress.) Another thing to remember is that your persona would have no idea that she is not in her proper time place. This means that she a) has no need to say that she is from the fourteenth century, since she just assumes everyone is, and b) she would attribute differences of clothing, etc., to place or finances or religion or personal oddity and not to time. This requires some willing suspension of disbelief, but it is easier than it might seem because of the difference of what you know and your persona knows. You know, when you see a lady in Tudor garb talking with a Viking, that she is 16th century and he is probably around 10th century, that they couldn't have existed at the same time, and that their talking together is really absurd, when taken in context of the space-time continuum. Your persona, though, suave Frenchman that he is (Look, I'm writing this, and I'll use any examples I please, thank you very much!), knows nothing of this, and is, in fact, sublimely unaware that this is not the 14th century he knows and loves. He wonders, of course, what that lovely, though oddly dressed woman is doing talking to the alarmingly furry person in the baggy hose. Is he some sort of odd beast-man imported from Cathay? Could she be a Muscovite and is that why she is dressed so strangely? Therefore, it's perfectly fine for your to wear garb that isn't in your period. You won't tell us when you're from or that a kimono isn't Scottish garb, and we will be blissfully aware of any discrepencies. (Besides, lots of people like to wear clothes from countries other than their own.) Some might think that you are oddly dressed, or out of fashion or something, but we would never dream of mentioning it, I need hardly say. Perhaps you lost half your family fortune or are from far away or performing some odd religous vow. In any case, it isn't polite to mention it. It isn't our business and you seem a perfectly nice person, in spite of the funny green hat. One does run into more of a problem if one is discussing events that are happening or have happened within one's "lifetime." If you choose to do this, be vague. Don't mention dates, refer to famous people by titles and first names only: "Queen Eleanor," rather than "Eleanor of Aquitane," for example. After all, there were lots of queens named Eleanor. If someone is discussing something way before or after your time, just assume that they are talking about some far away country or are slightly unhinged, smile and nod at them and change the subject. We all have practice at this. I myself have a couple of friends who occasionally pour out their tribulations/group politics to me and I smile and nod and generally have no clue as to what they're talking about, but I figure they need to discuss it with someone and it won't hurt me to listen (The amount of outrageous gossip I have learned this way is truly amazing.) This technique is quite useful when playing persona. Some people eschew the above type of conversation and stick to telling stories, philosophical or literary chats, discussion of appropriate Society doings, and flirting. This is all very well, but sometimes you just gotta tell someone what that hussy Agnes Sorel has been up to. TOPICS OF COVERSATION It's fine to talk about anything your persona would have talked about-- the harvest, the weather, the latest fashions, the scandalous doings of the Countess of Troyes, the glorious deeds of your grandfather, the marvelous new romance you heard from the minstrel who stayed at your castle last winter, the merits of Thomas Aquinas over those of Bernard of Clairvaux. Just remember to talk about things from the perspective of your medeival persona, not your 20th century self. If you don't know much about your persona or don't really have one, you can always talk about appropriate Society doings, compliment, ask questions ("Where did you get that lovely necklace), or flirt. If you are really shy or nervous, don't feel compelled to say anything, just smile and nod, and listen to other people. Silence is rarely a problem in the Enchanted Ground. I alone have enough verbosity for several large encampments. Talking about certain Society matters is fine, though mentioning the actual SCA is somewhat inappropriate. The SCA didn't exist in the Middle Ages, though many of the things done in the Middle Ages are done in the SCA, like tournaments, feasts, coronations, politics. However, many things that exist within the SCA didn't exist in the Middle Ages, like the BoD, A&S competitions, kingdom newsletters, membership dues, the Knowne World Heraldic Symposium, waivers, etc. So when talking about Society matters, limit your discussion to things that would've happened back then, and discuss them in the context of places (An Tir, the Barony of StoneMarche) rather than the SCA. And remember, back in the Middle Ages, one did not have to submit one's name to the heralds to see if they'd pass it, so when introducing yourself, do not say,"Greetings, I am Sylvia of Harding Fen, only not officially yet, because I don't know if the heralds will accept it." Just say, "Greetings, I am Sylvia of Harding Fen," and leave it at that. WHAT'S IN A NAME? Some people like giving modern things names they think sound medievalish, like calling a car a "dragon," a computer an "Electronic scribe," a phone a "farspeaker." These names tend to jar the fantasy that we are medieval people living in the Middle Ages. Instead of trying to give a modern thing a "medieval" name, either don't mention the thing (usually you don't need to) or figure out what the thing's function is (communication, travel, writing, etc.) then substitute the name of the thing that fulfillled the function in the Middle Ages. A word processor becomes a clerk or a scribe, a horse or a wagon takes the place of a car or motorcyle, sending email or talking on the phone becomes sending a messanger or a missive. Babies and children, by the way, were called babies and children in the Middle Ages. No need to call them smalls, halflings, munchkins, etc. Besides, Rebecca and Molly (the small children in the Enchanted Ground) are far too adorable and sweet to be called thuglets. HOW DO I ASK IF IT'S MEDIEVAL? This is a common occurance. You want to know if a certain food is medieval so that you can offer it to people (how generous of you!) or if a song sounds medieval because you'd like to sing it at the Bardic Circle, but you know it isn't medieval to ask if something is medieval. What to do? It's quite simple really. Just go up to your nearest Enchanted Ground denizen and ask if you can speak to them outside the encampment (or say that you have a dish, song, etc, that you would like to share, but you aren't sure if it is "suitable for this gentle company." Said Enchanted Ground denizen will then escort you outside the Enchanted Ground border, where you may safely not play persona, and either answer your question or direct you towards another denizen who would know. FORM OF SPEECH It is unnecessary to speak Elizabethan English. If you want to but don't know all the grammar rules, there is an excellent article in the Knowne World Handbook called "How to Speak Forsoothly." I will only say here that it is safest to call people you don't know well "you" instead of "thou," as "thou" was used for lovers, children, good friends, and really obvious social inferiors. It was NOT used for the King or with a delicately brought up young lady whom you hardly know. Don't feel chagrined if you didn't know this before. It's all the King James Bible's fault. Here follow a few tricks for sounding less modern: 1. Avoid modern idioms and slang like "Okay," "come with," "Cool," "Do lunch," "Hi," "Yo," and any word or phrase that sounds even vaguely Californian (This is not an insult; I am a transplanted Californian). 2. Avoid contractions like "can't," "wouldn't," "don't." "'Tis," though, is a period contraction. 3. Speak clearly and enunciate well. This isn't necessarily medieval, but for most of us it will sound different and that's a start. 4. Sprinkle your conversation with medieval phrases, curses, and exclamations: "By Our Lady," "Par ma foi!," "God's teeth" (my personal favorite), "Good my lord," "Sweet my lady," etc. ALTERNATE PERSONAS There has been scads of debate on this topic and I won't enter into it. If you have more than one persona and want to visit the Enchanted Ground, there are two ways to go about it: 1. Only play one persona. 2. Play both personas, but at separate times. Act like your personas are completely separate people. This means you'll have to introduce yourself to people twice, dress differently, etc. Whichever you do, don't mention your alternate persona. Play each one as a completely separate entity. Your personas may know each other, but don't say things like, "Gee, I wonder why Otto the Oaf is never around when I am? Strange, isn't it? You'd think we were the same person," or "I'm being my alternate persona right now," or "Well, when I'm my other self, I'll belly dance for you all." Remember, your persona doesn't know your alternate persona is an alternate persona. And never, when playing one persona, suddenly segeway into the other one. This can be extremely disconcerting, especially if your alternate persona is of the opposite sex. WHAT TO CALL THIS GUIDE IN PERSONA You probably have no need to mention this guide while playing persona. If you do suddenly have a pressing desire to praise or criticize it, call it a Treatise on Manners. Well, I hope this has dispelled any last lingering qualms you have about visiting us and answered any hitherto unanswered questions. Hope to see you at Pennsic. Madeleine From: Henry Best Subject: Peasants' Point Date: 9 Sep 91 Concerning peasant's point and similar proposals, I generally have no trouble paying my own way to events, mundanely. However, my very first persona, who I still play and value highly, is a Franciscan Friar. I attempt to follow the Rule of Saint Francis when I am John the Heretic. I have an extreme vow of poverty. I offer to do menial labor for food and shelter. I beg for food or money. Mundanely, I pay my site fees by mail or I arrange to have a friend publicly pay my way. I give any money I receive to some charity or other. If I have enjoyed the event, I give it to the local group. None of that is visible to an observer if I am in persona. Truth to tell, I have no real need for a peasants' point in order to play Brother John. Wandering into a strange camp with my bowl and begging breakfast is a great icebreaker. The cooks generally love it and have a great time either fussing over me or shooing me away. Ladies I meet on the road stare at me with wide eyes and make their lords put a little something in my bowl. Everyone comes away happy. All it takes is a tiny smidgen of chutzpah the first time you try it. The reason I am telling you all this (I babble too much) is to point out that you might want to arrange your peasants' point so that you can support those impoverished souls who don't happen to be broke mundanely. It might involve a recordkeeping system or be as simple as a verbal convention that lets people know that money does not need to change hands. On the whole, I think peasants' point is the seed of a truly great idea. There might be plenty of folks who would like to live _way_ below the salt but need help hooking up with gentles in need of service. I just don't know quite how you would go about managing it. Henry Best Isenfir Atlantia aka John of Lincoln, the Heretic Henry Best Clothing Perceptions 24 Sep 91 Bertram> I am curious. To what degree do clothes make the Bertram> Lord or Lady in the Society? My very first persona was John of Lincoln, called The Heretic, a franciscan friar. The color, sort of an "off grey", drains every bit of color from my face. The cloth is very rough-woven and is a fair visual approximation of home-spun english linen. The cut of the robes is technically my size but hangs loosely on me, as if I had considerably more flesh on my bones when the robes were made. They are frayed and worn at the edges. I and several of my friends routinely wipe our hands off on them and so they sport a subdued "muddiness" throughout. If I were to machine wash this garb, it would vanish in a puff of lint; I hand soak it in a cold tub once every 6 months whether it needs it or not. :) I played SCA as John the Heretic for about a year each in the Outlands and in Atlantia. Grossly overgeneralizing, here is what I observed as my fellow scadians reacted to me. Ladies tended to react initially with general unease and sometimes even revulsion. As time would go on, reactions would develop into one of two areas, delight or displeasure. Those who were delighted would either make a big show of avoiding me, shooing me away, putting me to work at unpleasant chores, etc, or they would fuss over me and make sure that I was fed and comfortable. Those who were displeased would actively avoid me in seriousness, refuse to make eye-contact with me, and generally pretended I didn't exist. "Hats" tended to be literally unaware of my existance. There were notable exceptions. In general, tho, if my lady (a laurel) introduced me to some king, baroness, duke, knight, or what have you, I would observe in quiet amazement as their eyes simply never really focused on me as they shook my hand. Had I less internal self-confidence, I might have begun to doubt my own existance. Late last fall, the shire where I live needed a seneschal. I volunteered for the job. I thought that John the Heretic would make a lousy seneschal so I decided I would develop a new persona to support the office. I dug out some elizabethan garb originally belonging to my lady's ex-husband and wore it to an event. At one point during the evening, I found myself surrounded by four ladies who complimented me on my grace, my quiet but absolute self-confidence, and my air of inherent nobility. I am not surmising this but only paraphrasing. One compared me to an actor she admired. When her friends said I bore him no resemblance, she steadfastly insisted it was my charm and poise, my attitudes, not my mere physical appearance that she referred to. At no time did these ladies seem to me to anything other than utterly genuine in their reactions. Was it the clothes? I am sure of it. I did not suddenly become "inherently noble". (My lady maintained that it was because I was the only male at the event in tights.) At the very least, I think that the John the Heretic robes damped any "inherent nobility" and that the tudor doublet enhanced it. More likely, just like with my poor friar, the ladies saw only the clothes and not the man inside them. Just a Guy in Garb, Henry Best Henry Best Oop 600-1600 5 Nov 91 Well, I have never considered that whole 600-1600 boundary to be all that useful on an individual basis. It's fine on a large scale; defining the overall scope of interest in corpora, etc. But it has nothing to do with what I can appropriately use for my persona. Henry Best is a gentleman from Elizabeth's reign. That means I can't use a viking round shield and an axe, even though they are "period". They aren't "period" for Henry. Likewise, if I find out that _fill_in_the_blank_ was developed in England in 1602, I will adopt it with zero apologies. The world comes to an end for Henry in 1603, when Elizabeth dies. James takes over at that point and makes changes left and right, often specifically to be non-elizabethan. If I think that something originated with James, I don't use it. If I find documentation from James' period and I think that it is essentially unchanged, I might include it. The point is that I don't use 1600 as a cutoff; I use the death of Elizabeth. Likewise, John the Heretic is a Franciscan scholar who is involved in all the excitement when the arabian/greek texts reach the scientific community in Europe. Much as it pains me, DaVinci's stuff is off limits, even though it's "period". From: habura@vccsouth13.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura) Date: 12 Nov 91 13:22:47 GMT Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY That's true. Andrea is also an agnostic, but Alison spends a lot of her time on pilgrimage, and has two relics. (Canterbury Tales type relics, yes. Completely fake. I'm making one right now; I found a photo of a relic case for a thorn from Christ's crown, from the mid-14th century. By a happy chance, I have a 2" long locust thorn in my possession. I'm making a similar case for it. Andrea knows that it's fake, but Alison thinks it's genuine.) Alison MacDermot Eastern Crown Herald From: ddfr@quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman) Date: 18 Nov 91 05:20:33 GMT Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations Priests, Mass, etc. "Any mass performed for Christian participants at an SCA event will be a service, not a theatric display."(William de Corbie) I think that there is an important point here. There is a fuzzy line in the SCA, between things that are "acts" and things that are "real." To take an obvious example, suppose some tells malicious lies about someone else. It is not a satisfactory defense to say "That was not me; I am not more responsible for my persona's behavior than an actor playing Iago is for Iago's behavior." Where the line is drawn is different for different people. I am mundanely an atheist/agnostic (depending on your definition); when I argue for Islam at events it is mostly a game, although there is an element of trying to make the best case I can for a position that I know some people believe in. But if I am arguing with someone who is mundanely as well as in persona a Christian, it is much less a game for him (this has happened, and can produce a certain amount of tension). If I give a convincing reason why the Christian religion does not make sense, that is an attack on his beliefs as well as his persona's beliefs. If he gives a good argument for Christianity, that may be a way of drawing me, as well as my persona, towards what he considers the truth. Similarly, if a group of (mundane) Christians at an event are doing a Christian ceremony not too inconsistent with their mundane beliefs, it is probably real for them--just as oaths of allegiance are, within certain limitations, real for me (binding promises, not just stage business--although the context in which the promise is made may imply some unstated limitations in what I am promising). There are serious potential problems if some of the people involved view the ceremony as real, some as playacting, and some as parody. Gay Personnae Greg Love asks about gay personnae. A few years ago one of our active members was gay, both mundanely and in persona. At one point we were looking for a new seneschal and he was one of the people being considered. The old seneschal said something to the effect that she was afraid he might finding running such a group too difficult. His response was that he had been an officer of the Gay and Lesbian Alliance the previous year, and thought an SCA group would be easy in comparison. Unfortunately, he moved away a few months after becoming seneschal. His persona was English, from the court of (I believe) Richard II, who was widely suspected of being gay and having at least one gay favorite. Another possibility would be to be Persian; they have had a reputation for (male) homosexuality for several thousand years, and I presume there is something in it, although I do not know the culture well enough to be sure. Cariadoc Date: 31 Jan 92 From: ddfr@quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations "Perhaps our scribes could improve their visibility in some way." (Fiacha) This suggests an interesting way of combining visibility with appreciation. I believe that period scribes in at least some period cultures had pen cases--things they wore that held pens, perhaps ink, etc. I have not checked any details, but I am pretty sure I remember a pen case as one of the charges described in "Mamluk Heraldry," and I think there are similar things in Christian Europe. How about a kingdom project (by the non-scribes) to research what pen cases looked like, make a lot of recognizably similar ones, and, over time, present one to every scribe who does award scrolls. That would both be a thankyou and make it easier to recognize scribes who did award scrolls. "It might seem a little odd to have a Muslim mufti and a Catholic bishop at the same table, talking peaceably, but this IS the SCA, and we HAVE seen odder occurrences...." (Fujimoto) Why would it seem odd? There were Christians, including clergymen, all over al-Islam; it would be odd if they never argued religion with their Muslim neighbors. There are a variety of period stories about religious arguments, such as the Christian/Jewish/Muslim debate that was supposedly held for the Khan of the Khazars. Cariadoc Religion and Persona Date: 3 Feb 92 From: lawbkwn@buacca.BITNET (Yaakov HaMizrachi) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Unto the good gentles of the Rialto does this humble Yaakov extend greetings on the 29th day of Sh'vat. I have, of course, been following the religion/persona debate with much interest. I should like to say the following: It seems to me there are two questions; how much should religion be a part of persona and how much should religion be a PUBLIC part of persona. The first, IMO, is a private matter and not really anyone's business. The second is a subject of some debate and confusion, but I personally favor more public 'religiousness' onthe part of persona buffs. To discuss my personal case (which, of course, I know best) Yaakov is a religious Jew of the early 13th century living (for the most part) in Cairo. (With trips around the Islamic world and extended stays in the Kingdom of the East). Harold Feld is a religious Jew in the late 20th century who spends his time doing (among other things) medieval recreation. Thus, in many ways, Yaakov is religious because Harold is religious, although there are differences. Yaakov never heard of 'Orthodox', whereas Harold expects most Jews he meets not to practice the same traditions he does. Yaakov can eat rice on Passover. Harold can't. Yaakov has one or two religious customs from his upbringing in China that he has given up to conform to his new community. Harold has a number of European practices which he tries to avoid at events. However, both Yaakov and Harold eat strictly Kosher food. Yaakov prays 3 times a day at an event. Not only does Yaakov need to do it, but so does Harold. This last is an important. I do not make a production out of prayer, it is private. However, the day someone tells me that I can't pray at his event because it violates corpra is the day I quit the SCA. No option. On the other hand, There are a number of semi-public things that I do that I could stop, but see no reason to or reason they should offend. For example, I host a Friday night dinner at any camping event I go to. Afterwards, I may very well sing traditional (and documentable to persona correct culture+dates) songs in praise of the sabbath. I suppose this might be 'impossing my religion on others,' (if they understood it), but it stikes me as no more religious than the Carolingian Jongluers singing 'Goudete' or some other hymn. That I 'mean' it should not change the fact that it is a perfectly acceptable period song. In my personal opinion, I think that people should be encouraged to be outwardly religious in persona, providing that: 1) they make a serious attempt to represent the religion they are recreating; 2) No outsider is forced to participate (this does not bar public ritual). This has rambled on enough. Alas, too little sleep and a lousy editor have muddled my confused thoughts almost beyond comprehension. In Service, Yaakov HaMizrachi "Mundane",Persona,SCA for credit 27 Feb 92 From: ddfr@quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations Reply-To: ddfr@midway.uchicago.edu Persona "I didn't have a persona at all till fairly recently, and even now being "a 9th-century Welsh/Saxon et caetera" is mostly a handy guide to getting my garb and my encampment to look reasonably consistent, and not like an explosion in a time machine. But then, I'm a Westie.... " (Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin) Once you have figured out what sort of clothes a 9th century Welsh/Saxon lady would wear, you might start wondering what sort of a person would be wearing those clothes. There is then the danger that you might discover that wearing the person is much more interesting than just wearing the clothes. At that point you discover that you have a persona--and, of course, get exiled from the West Kingdom as a foreign subversive. Consider as simple a matter as story telling around a fire at Pennsic. Medieval stories told by a medieval story teller are more interesting, all other things being equal, than "no shit, there we were" stories told by a twentieth century recreationist. But once you have decided to be a medieval story teller, you must decide what medieval story teller you are going to be. What do you know, what do you believe? When you tell stories of miracles, is the point the miraculous power of God or the credulity of the witnesses? When you tell about a historical event, is it from the viewpoint of someone who observed it or from the perspective of two hundred years later? Dorothea also asks: "Am I a 9th-century Welsh/Saxon border hybrid who survived the sack of York, married a Dane, and now hangs out in the court of Alfred the Great? Or am I a Laurel/Pelican of the West Kingdom, Seneschal of the oldest branch of the Known World and currently Bard of the Mists? That is like asking whether David is an economist and writer or a medieval cooking enthusiast and story teller. The obvious answer is "all of the above." Dorothea is a 9th century etc. who at some point, in some unspecified way, found herself in a foreign land called the kingdom of the West, and has adapted very nicely. Is that any stranger than Ibn Battuta, born in Cariadoc's Maghreb a few centuries later, who at various points in his life was a judge in Delhi, a judge in the Maldive Islands, a tourist in Ceylon, and an ambassador to the emperor of China? All of which suggests to me a new category of SCA joke: What scrap of overheard conversation tells you that you are in: The West Kingdom: "Of course it's authentic--we've been doing it for years." Calontir: "If Herald had only had bigger shields and fewer heroes ..." Two down, ten to go--suggestions? "My ultimate response was, "If it's a camping event, summer (hot) outside, or I'm just feeling lazy, I'm Celtic (aren't T-tunics wonderful?). If it's indoors and I have a place to change (so I can look nice without a hassel) or I'm fencing, I'm late period Italian-ish ." Never figured out what I am when I fight heavy, though. Ask me in another 5 years. :-)" (Dona Kaela Orion) It seems to follow that Italy, at least in late period, had no summers--I didn't realize the little ice age was quite that effective. Or in other words, wouldn't a more interesting solution to the problem of weather be to pick one persona and figure out how that person would have dealt with both hot and cold weather? If more people did that, fewer of us would have the impression that people in certain cultures spent all their time dressed for winter. Cariadoc Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: strauss@Hopper.itc.Virginia.EDU (John Strauss) Subject: Re: Lepers (was: Vampires) Organization: uva Date: Sun, 3 Apr 1994 20:13:50 GMT I haven't ever been a leper. But my first persona was a rather filthy and pitable Franciscan friar, named John the Heretic. My first Estrella, which was my 3rd event, I made a practice of visiting strange camps in the mornings and begging for breakfast, offering to perform menial labor and to bless the camp in return. The overwhelming positive reaction of hospitality was arguably the final straw that made me a "fanatic" SCAdian. My two fondest memories were the middle-eastern camp whose master gave me bread and water, quoting scripture concerning Allah's commands to give hospitality to beggars. (He then ordered his men to throw me bodily out of camp, which they did.) And the camp which made me haul away a vast amount of garbage up a hill for them. When I returned, I was presented with a venison steak, medium rare, and welcomed to their table as an honored guest. Henry Best Atlantia From: Honour Horne-Jaruk (9/21/94) To: Mark Harris Mail*Link� SMTP RE>Persona markh@sphinx.sps.mot.com (Mark Harris) writes: > Hmm. I've seen Alizaunde before, although I don't remember a time. > 14th century? Who is Una? > > Stefan li Rous > Ansteorra Respected Friend: Alizaunde was three years old at the Field of Cloth-of-Gold. She is the daughter of Katherine, Dame de Bregeuf and a French merchant-prince (He's got the money, but not the title). Exiled from France, she lived in England until Bloody Mary recently took over. Now she's an independent merchant. Una Wicca (That Pict) is a tribute hostage in the custody of Jarl Aelfwine Dunedain, who lives near Wilton, on Salisbury Plain. A priest of some foreign god called Christ Jesus came through last year; he said it has been 493 years since his God's mortal disguise was destroyed. Both of them are parts of me, brought out and exaggerated. Alizaunde is the money-grubber, the show-off, the wit and the compulsive teacher. Una is the one who works with her hands, the herbalist, the songmaker and the agressive recruiter. Oddly enough, it was Una who earned the Laurel in the clothier's arts, even though the scroll says Alizaunde de Bregeuf. This is why Alizaunde's Laurel `medallion' is almost invisible, while Una wears a Roman charioteer's victory wreath she dug out of some abandoned grave. Una is very slightly shorter and fatter than Alizaunde (because of the way the two styles of clothing effect percieved size and height). Some people don't like her as much, because she's louder and less elegant. Some like her more, because she's less delicate and more `authentic'. YMWV. That help? yrs, etc, Honour/Una/Alizaunde Edited by Mark S. Harris personas-msg