persona-msg - 8/15/08 Persona development. Ideas about personas. NOTE: See also the files: personas-msg, persona-art, per-insanity-msg, per-lepers-msg, Barbrn-Persona-art, Persona-f-Beg-art, Som-Per-Ideas-art. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: Theron.Bretz at f555.n387.z1.fidonet.org (Theron Bretz) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Surprise! Surprise! Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1993 20:39:00 -0500 From the pen(?) of Etienne de Montagu, good greetings: Regarding awards that "don't fit the persona", I'd like to share a tale: Many moons ago, there lived in my barony (Bjornsborg, Ansteorra) a gentle called Leon Donne, a goodly fellow for yeoman stock. Leon's persona was (still is) an English bowman straight out of Henry V. When he got his AoA, his solution to the problem was to carry it (the scroll) around in a leather case at his belt wherever he went, so that he could prove his right to hunt the King's deer. One day, some friends of his with more "noble" personas cornered him and confronted him about "pretending to be a Lord". Leon presented the scroll to the threesome and the exchange went something like this: Godwyn (holding the scroll upside down): Michael, you're a Norman, can you read? Michael: I thought you could.... Martha (grabbing the scroll away) Here, I can read..... wait this isn't Portugese! Leon grabs his scroll and ducks out Exeunt omnes I remain, Etienne de Montagu Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: sclark at epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Clark) Subject: Re: Persona Development Organization: University of Toronto - EPAS Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 23:56:51 GMT For me, persona development is just plain fun. It has caused me to look into a variety of things I probably would not have looked at had I remained your basic Medieval History PhD student, including food, dress, housing, the literature Nicolaa would have read, town stucture, the agricultural year, etc. Sure, I might have read books on these subjects, but as I spend most of my time looking at penetential manuals, law texts, and charrs these days, I certainly would not have paid much attention to issues of practical use.... I really don't use my persona much at SCA events, beyond the surface presentation. Where I do use it is in smaller situations (a roundtable of Anglo-Normans, for instance) and in school demos. For the latter, a developed persona is a wonderful thing...I can tell stories about my home, my family, what I do with the day, whether I can read and write, my brother the Franciscan and my other brother who is anxious to go on crusade, the fact that I was one of seven children, only three of whom made it to adulthood.......you get the idea. Persona development is a matter of personal taste....but I do find that I tend to get on better with those who have put time into their personas....always something to talk about when the fighting gets dull.... Regards Nicolaa/Susan sclark at epas.utoronto.ca From: longo at eggo.usf.edu (Andrea Longo) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Persona Development Date: 20 Jul 1993 17:21:51 GMT Organization: University of South Florida, Department of Computer Science and Engineering eric-smith at ksc.nasa.gov (Eric C. Smith) writes: >As we interact and try to rec-reate (as opposed to re-create) the middle >ages, we wondered 'Why persona development?' What is the purpose behind >personae development, do we really use it, does it really affect how we >play the game, is it necessary, can it be beneficial to what we try to do, >and do we really use the personas we develop as a means for interpreting >and communicating what we have learned and are trying to teach others? I try to give my persona as much detail as possible, doing so gives me a context for her position in the Society. I try to be in persona but it is often hard to do consistantly. Asleif, the 9th c Viking servant doesn't know how to deal with running errands for officers, managing a mundane kitchen, doing paperwork or any of the modern things that Andrea has to deal with at events. Asleif, however, *can* look after children, prepare food in camp, fetch and carry, etc, without looking too out of place. I try to at least maintain the apperance when possible. Some time back, we sat around discussing just this thing and came to the conclusion that, while we try to play our persona, we sometimes feel that we were "too busy working" to do it well. When I was deciding on the details of Asleif's life, I took into account what I tended to do most at events so I can incorporate that into my persona. I try to consider what Asleif might know when selecting garb and accessories, but tempered by the reality of the Florida climate. (For example, Asleif "borrows" clothing and jewelry from the household when she is requested to look presentable for court; those things are more appropriate for someone far above her station. Andrea knows better.) >rarely see others that expend the same effort as we. Are we wasting our >time? Should we continue or should we do the minimum and become that >generic SCA 'being' that does 650 to 1650 all at the same time, with no >particular country or time, and sit around discussing SCA history rather >than medieval history. Is this really what the Society is about or do we >sell something to others that really doesn't exist? We are certainly not wasting our time, although sometimes, in exasperation, it feels like it. I am very happy that I am part of a household with a "persona," a cohesive common background makes it easier to add bits here and there instead of trying to create the whole thing from scratch by myself. True, I have been guilty of the "Generic SCA" thing but I try to at least present a recognizable origin when I can; if it is not my actual persona, then at least something specific within the SCA timeframe. (Much of my running around, working garb is Norman-style, Viking is often too heavy. It helps that I am unmarried and can get away without a veil and lower-class and not expected to be picture-perfect.) My friends and I often do speak about medieval history in the present tense and it adds a lot of atmosphere to the encampment. I always want to learn more, even if Asleif probably wouldn't have a clue about most of it, nor would anyone feel it necessary to tell her. (Telemark treats Asleif rather well for her station...) I have wondered at times why I do all the work and research I do when many people around me seem not to care. Happily, I have found a group of people who also care about historical accuracy and they encourage me even when I feel like giving up. I feel that if what I have done can encourage someone else to do something, then it is time well spent. I like to think of myself as setting an example and try to live up to that and at least be a good example. Andrea (and Asleif, too) longo at eggo.csee.usf.edu Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: moore at mari.acc.stolaf.edu (Michael Moore/Peregrine the Illuminator) Subject: Re: Persona Development Organization: Baronial Colleges of Nordleigh, SCA Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1993 18:03:11 GMT Unto the good gentles of the rialto doth Peregrine the Illuminator send his greetings in friendly fashion. Concerning the idea: "I would love to be in persona at events, but I'm too busy doing paperwork/sweeping the floor/working to do it." I have found this same problem: an illuminator probably isn't about to spend the valuable daylight hours doing the work of lesser servants, like cleaning the hall, setting up tables/chairs, and the other things I love to do at events. Thus, I find it is now time to change my persona for events to "Peregrine the domestic seneschal", in charge of changing the wash-water, emptying chamber-pots, replacing dirty floor-rushes, and clearing the cobwebs from the corners. Judging from past exploits, I expect the Autocrats of various events would love having such a servant wandering around. If you have something you do at events, have it as one of your persona's jobs. I'm glad to hear others are doing the same. Peregrine From: DDF2 at cornell.edu (David Friedman) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: The E-Ground (was Re: NOW SEE HERE! Date: 12 Oct 1993 22:07:37 GMT Organization: Cornell Law School Jennifer Ann Bray asks: > Do people who go in for personas find that after a while they are not > conscious of the act? Do they feel as if it is themselves or another > character they have created taking part? Yes it becomes automatic. I feel like some mix of David being Cariadoc and Cariadoc--who is another person I am. Cariadoc has much of David's personality but different opinions, knowledge, etc. > How do they react to peers expecting them to give deference? I don't have that problem. > Do they break persona to pass on > modern information or do they stubbornly stay in character? Sometimes I find ways of passing on the relevant information in persona, sometimes I break persona, sometimes I figure that passing on modern information is not worth breaking persona for. > If you > stay in persona all the time how do you ever find out how much of what > is happening is based on real history and how much is fantasy? You are out of persona after the event is over, and can talk with people, correspond by EMail, post on the Rialto, ... David/Cariadoc DDF2 at Cornell.Edu From: jtn at nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: The E-Ground Date: 12 Oct 1993 19:09:13 GMT Greetings, all, from Terry Nutter, who is (rather less often than she'd like) also sometimes Angharad ver' Rhuawn. Jennifer raises some questions about personas and re-creation. I think it's important to distinguish (at least) three different things: (1) Performing historical interpretations for the public. (2) Acting out a part as part of a play. (3) Trying to live out a part, for your personal enjoyment and (dare I say it?) education. The first, apparently, is what the group Jennifer belongs to mostly does. It has a number of built-in restrictions. While those doing it usually dress like someone from the time they are depicting, and often do something such a person would do, their reason for being there is to interact with modern members of the public who know little or nothing about the time in question. It is simply not possible to do this in a way that satisfies both the actor and the members of the public, without the actor acting primarily as a modern person in costume, who is knowledgeable about the period of interest. I think it's real neat that this stuff gets done. I suspect that a lot of people learn a lot, both from becoming competant to teach in such a setting and from having their interest piqued by observing and then going home and following up. It's great stuff. But it has nothing to do with what I call being in persona. Acting out a part as part of a play, whether on a formal stage or to be showy, whether to a separate audience or to yourselves, is also different from being in persona. Jennifer describes quasi-scripted encounters, with stereotypical (but not, from her descriptions, particularly realistic or accurate) behaviors among the participants based on a one- to two-word description of their roles. ("Peasant" meets "noble", so of course, "noble", being "noble", is haughty and obnoxious, while peasant behaves as if peasant had read Dickens and is emulating Uriah Heep.) The activity generally depends on a concurrent awareness of the gap between then and now for its enjoyability. For precisely this reason, it far more often expresses itself as parody or farce than as what one gets, e.g., from Brian Blessed playing Henry V's uncle. That also has little to do with what I think of as being in persona. To me, being in persona involves trying, so far as possible, to adopt the attitudes and behaviors of someone with my "essence", if you will, but whose life experience and social setting have been different. It's sort of, who I might have been, had I been born and grown up elsewhere and elsewhen. This is _terribly_ complex, because it is impossible to tell what parts of who and what I am derive from personal history. But the _attempt_ can start with things as simple as looking at what Angharad's "job" was (administering a medieval household, and ensuring the comfort of those who lived there), and then noticing how differently I react to the world when that kind of concern sits at the front of my mind instead of its back. Going on from there, one discovers effects; one becomes aware of kinds of socialization one didn't think of before; and Angharad slowly diverges from Terry. There are things she will do that Terry generally won't; and _many_ vice-versa. It isn't done to educate the general public. It _also_ isn't done to get quick giggles off the primitiveness of medieval culture from the outside. It's rather an attempt to push as far as one can toward feeling what it was like to be in this situation from the inside. I find it both fun and fascinating. I can rarely do it without a lot of conscious effort. The thing that makes this hardest, is that the settings I usually try it in are so utterly unlike anything Angharad ever would have experienced or dealt with (SCA events in general do not evoke anything distantly like a medieval atmosphere) that she could _not_ respond normally to any of it, and Terry is forced to keep intruding, saying, "Ignore that," and "Never mind." Since it's a whole lot easier to be Terry than to be Angharad, most events destroy the effort at being in persona before it can get off the ground, and getting less practice than I would like, I'm not nearly so good at it as I wish I were. Greg is so good at being Hossein that a huge proportion of Atlantia seems to thing that _Greg_ is stuff. (Wrong answer, dudes. _Hossein_ is stuffy. _Greg_ calls Hossein stuffy.) But then, he's been doing this twice as long as I have, and then some. Hope this clarifies things a little, Jennifer! Cheers, -- Terry/Angharad From: sclark at epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Clark) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Things my persona would have known Date: 1 Jan 1994 20:45:30 -0500 Organization: EPAS Computing Facility, University of Toronto Greetings.... Thought I'd offer my ideas on this topic. Here goes: What time I got up and what time I went to bed (and how I'd keep track of time during the day) Basic foods I'd eat during the day What my house would look like; furniture, etc. A bit about my family: My mother and father (their names and what they do), my brothers and sisters (Nicolaa has six, only two of which survived to adulthood) The locale in which I live: Is it a town? How big? is there a market there? Who are the local lords/mayor..etec? What I do with my day--do I practice a trade? Oversee an estate? etc. My means of transportation Big towns I've been to and what I did there Education: how'd I get it? languages I know? Can I do arithmetic? Religion: What do I do in church? How often do I go to Mass, go to confession? (Nicolaa's Catholic) How do I celebrate holidays? Am I married or not? (Nicolaa is). If yes, what did my wedding look like? What parts of basic law affect me directly? Bits about national politics which would directly affect me (in other words, Nicolaa knows about the upcoming Crusade because her brother and liege lord will be going. She probably doesn't know the intricacies of policy debates, though she might hear rumours)... This gives you a good idea. I can yack about myself and my family for hours if I feel like it...this is truly "historical minutia", but it's more fun for storytelling. (Susan knows plenty about what was really going on in 1239--probably more than Nicolaa does, especially on theological and legal matters) I'd advise anyone who really wants to develop a good persona to, once you've settled on a period and know its basic history, to start with yourself and develop outward from there. Think about what you do in your daily life in the 20th century and then think about what your persona would have done. If you think thusly, you'll soon amass a knowledge of little things which will make your persona more real. I personally think it's more important for an English persona to knoa bit about their own locale than to know about, say, the political situation and its intracacies in Spain. It's also a lot of fun to try to find literature and stories your persona would have known, read, heard, or sung. It's sort of a final refinement, and makes you very popular in the Enchanted Ground.... Cheers! Nicolaa/Susan Canton of Eoforwic Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: mchance at nyx10.cs.du.edu (Michael Chance) Subject: Things Your Persona Would Have Known Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept. Date: Mon, 3 Jan 94 18:55:43 GMT Leonora writes: >Question for discussion: >What would be a general list of "things your persona would've known" in >his/her daily life? Obviously, it would vary dramatically according to >time, location, and station, but I'd include local ruler(s), and current >religious and political schisms. What else would you put in? Currently popular liturature and music. Current fashion trends (both local and neighboring - as in "Well, you can tell he from Hellandgone - he's wearing an whatzit"). "Local rulers" should include religious (local priest, bishop, archbishop, and pope [suitably modified for Orthodox Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or whatever]) and secular (up to the king/emperor/whatever). "Schisms" should identify the local and major players in the different factions. Economic overview, including which guilds and/or trade organizations have the most influence, which are considered disreputable, etc. Areas most traded with/travelled to. Others? Mikjal Annarbjorn -- Michael A. Chance St. Louis, Missouri, USA "At play in the fields Work: mc307a at sw1sta.sbc.com of St. Vidicon" Play: ab899 at freenet.hsc.colorado.edu mchance at nyx.cs.du.edu Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Carolingian peasants From: schuldy at zariski.harvard.edu (Mark Schuldenfrei) Date: 17 Jan 94 09:41:23 EST gunwaldt at astro.dasd.honeywell.com writes: Query: Are the Carolingia peasants an enthusiastic group of rock grubbers? Do they help create a better ambiance? Or is this just a local joke? At one time, it was very much a "peasants guild", with sincere attempts to create an alternative to the chronic number of nobility. Currently, it is more at the level of a tradition that we maintain, or perhaps a local joke. This is not to say that at some point it won't become a going concern again. There is one local gentle, Rufus the Beggar, who doesn't "play" a peasant: he is one. Torn clothes, dirty face, bashful demeanor. He does it so well that he makes people slightly uncomfortable, sometimes. For example, when he eats at feast, he pays the on-board price, but wanders from table to table asking for a crust of bread, or something to eat. Very occasionally, I would either give him "charity", or sometimes "cuff the churl", depending on his mood, or mine, or whether I'm sure he's had enough to eat yet. Rufus is an interesting case: he is certainly more authentic than many of us, but at the same time he is so good at it, that people who don't know he is playing, get a little concerned. I keep trying to spread the good words around. Tibor -- Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy at math.harvard.edu) From: meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org (meg) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Origin of term Rialto Date: Tue, 05 Apr 94 11:07:38 EDT Organization: Stonemarche Network Co-op dnb105 at psu.edu (Ferret) writes: > Susan Clark writes: > > The Rialto was recognized as a focal point in Venice long before > >Shakespeare wrote about it. While reading up on Italian Ren culture last > >year in preparation for an event set in Venice, 1472 I saw several mentions > >of the Rialto bridge as a gathering spot (as well as a place where the > >ladies of easy virtue went to exhibit their wares....) > > Now there's something to recreate ! > > -Ferret- Actually, I know of at least 2 _ladies_ at Pennsic who do precisely that. They dress authentically for _ladies_ of their calling, and are reputed to give an authentically medieval version of what they sell. Not having availed myself of their services, I wouldn't know if it's truly authentic...having followed the thread on medieval sex and the lack of response to the queries for documentation of such practices, I suspect not. Perhaps they merely do it forsoothly. :-) Megan == In 1994: Linda Anfuso In the Current Middle Ages: Megan ni Laine de Belle Rive In the SCA, Inc: sustaining member # 33644 YYY YYY meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org | YYYYY | |____n____| From: meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org (meg) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Religious Personae and Sabbath at Events Date: Sun, 01 May 94 08:53:38 EDT Organization: Stonemarche Network Co-op HAROLD.FELD at hq.doe.GOV writes: > Unto all who read these words, greetings from Yaakov: > > I think there is plenty of room for Christian display, > although it raises an interesting question: Aside from > puting a cross on your arms, how do you display Christian > belief without being evengelical? Everyone who camps with > me knows I'm Orthodox, since I get up every morning, put on > Teffilin, face east, and pray for about 20 minutes. The > kipah (thingy on top of my head) is also a giveaway. It > also becomes real obvious when I consistently decline > invites to share food or participate in certain prohibitted > activities on Shabbos. How would a Christian overtly > display religion, besides wearing a Cross? > > In Service and in curiousity, > > Yaakov Hi Yaakov, Megan here! My persona is a late 15th century Catholic. In my house at Pennsic I have several "giveaway" clues to her religious preference...an ornately carved gilded cruxifix on a little shelf, a rosary hanging on a nail near her bed, several small devotional dipychs of the Virgin on a bookshelf, a copy of Thomas a' Kempis (ok, the actual volume dates 150 years after my persona lived, but it "looks old enough"), a latin psalter, and of course, illuminated manuscripts which she is working on, which are books of hours, done on commission. Most obvious is the large panel painting of the Virgin and Child done in the manner of Durer which is handsomely displayed front and center on the scriptorium. Other not so obvious clues are the latin mottoes written on the walls and ceiling, some are scriptural quotes, and the panel painting above the bed which depicts animals from Noah's ark. Also, I try to pepper my speech with appropriate religious phrases, which mention saints and the Diety in a variety of pious and sometimes impious ways. Cursing is a particular interest of mine...what did people in my period say when vexed? Fortunately there are some good religious sermons recorded in period which address this issue. I strive to keep the fine line between play acting and actually cursing clear. ("No, Lord, _that_ time I was only fooling...it wasn't a _real_ curse at all. I was just keeping in persona, doncha know." Well, I trust Him to know the difference. I also have approriate flowers in my garden...roses and lilies. The symbology of medieval Christianity is rich and varied. It was actually unusual for non-clergy in my period to wear crosses or cruxifixes as personal adornment. But these symbols could be sublimated into decorative embroidery to good effect. Oh, I also forgot, there are several relics of the third degree upon my shelf...a scrap of St. Luke's clothing, a nail from the cruxifixion, a small vial of Mary's Milk, a rock from the Holy Seplchure, a piece of the Holy Shroud, a replica of Veronica's Veil, etc. I don't go showing these item off, of course. The merely reside in my house as silent testimony to the piety of my persona. Also, since she paints religious pictures, it's good for business.:-) Now, for us uneducated goyim, could you provide an English translation and short explanation for all the interesting stuff you described? I'm afraid my Hebrew's a bit rusty. (ok, make that non-existant) Megan, written upon this First Day of May, the Feast of Our Lady. == In 1994: Linda Anfuso In the Current Middle Ages: Megan ni Laine de Belle Rive In the SCA, Inc: sustaining member # 33644 YYY YYY meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org | YYYYY | |____n____| From: gray at ibis.cs.umass.edu (Lyle Gray) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Begging in SCA Date: 27 Sep 1994 14:51:29 GMT Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Univ. of Mass., Amherst, MA At Pennsic XIII, I remember leaving the Great Court to go check on my tent (it was raining heavily, nothing unusual). There was drumming up on Tuchux hill, the tents were partly obscured so you couldn't tell which were modern and which weren't. As I headed down the hill, I noticed that there was someone sitting at the side of the road. As I came up to him, there was a flash of lightning, and I could see that he was holding up a wooden bowl, which was now full of rainwater. As he did so, he said, in a feeble voice, "Alms for the poor?" It completed the illusion for me, I'll tell you! It was quite satisfying to listen to the coins splash into his bowl... -- Lyle FitzWilliam ------------------------------------------------------ NON ANIMAM CONTINE Lyle H. Gray Internet (personal): gray at cs.umass.edu Quodata Corporation Phone: (203) 728-6777, FAX: (203) 247-0249 Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman) Subject: Re: Thoughts on Authenticity Debates Organization: University of Chicago Date: Mon, 26 Dec 1994 17:10:52 GMT One small point on the "should one's activities be limited to what one's persona would have done" thread. Cariadoc is from the Maghreb, but he currently lives in the Middle Kingdom, a predominantly Frankish land of vague geographical location. So the relevant question is not what Cariadoc would have done at home but what he would have done as a long term visitor in a foreign land. To answer that, one should look at accounts by such visitors--the travels of Ibn Battuta, for example. I think we may have a tendency to overestimate the rigidity of people in the past. Someone from a culture where X was not done, or where he would not do X, who has moved to a society where people like him routinely do do X, might well modify his behavior accordingly. He might still regard X as a somewhat odd thing for respectable people like him to be doing. Example 1: There is a period anecdote about a crusader discovering, and imitating, the middle-eastern practice of shaving off the pubic hair. Example 2: Usamah ibn Munqidh comments that the first generation Franks in Outremer, the one who had come from Frangistan, were uncivilized barbarians, but their children were a great improvement. In that case, of course, it took a generation to adapt--but then, they were Franks. Note also that a traveler, unless he has a large entourage, is likely to do things for himself that he would have had done for him back home. David/Cariadoc From: salley at niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Transvestite Personas Date: 7 Feb 95 23:51:13 GMT Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208 Steffan ap Cennydd (Steven H Mesnick) writes: > There are also, in the East, Mistress Giceline de Molay, who used to do a > great Templar as Gicelin (no "e"). There is also Lord Uilliam Twit of > Witlow, who is a woman whose persona is that of a male fool who dresses in > drag (parse *that* one!). At the Rhydderich Hael's most recent Masked Ball this past December 3rd, the theme was "Kings and Queens" The prize for Best Female Garb was won by _Lord_ Kent Weed as Queen Anne. The garb and persona were so perfect, that our local stud-muffin tried to pick him up and has been trying to live it down ever since. ;-) I was herald for court and was under orders to call him up for his award as Queen Anne. Their excellencies spoke to 'her' as 'my lady'. When I read the scroll and read his name, he took off his tiara and wig and you could hear jaws dropping all over the hall! - Dagonell SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr Habitat : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, Rhydderich Hael Barony Internet : salley at cs.canisius.edu (Please use this, reply may not work.) USnail-net : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029 From: afn03234 at freenet.ufl.edu (Ronald L. Charlotte) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Persona development (long) Date: 1 Jul 1995 17:25:12 GMT I've seen a number of requests from people new to the Society concerning personas, and how to go about figuring one out. Developing an in-depth persona is not a requirement of the SCA. In fact, there are any number of Society members who dislike the practice of "creating a persona". I rather like the idea, as it gives me a "hook" and a focus upon which to concentrate, and keep myself from wandering too far afield when I'm trying to research specific things. Researching all the aspects of a persona can lead you to the information you need to outfit your persona; such as garb, jewelry (or lack of it), hats, shoes, etc. Each fact you uncover will help lead you into a better understanding of the era you've chosen to concentrate on. The list of questions that follows was originally given to me by Baroness Natalija Stoianova (it may have even originated on the Rialto). I've since tweaked it and added and removed questions with the help of a few other friends. I know darned few people, myself included, that can go through this thing 100%, but I'm having fun trying. Don't be intimidated by the question list (when it was given to me, I'd been in for over a decade, and the depth and width of the gaps in my knowlege startled me). Just run through the easy ones first... +++++++++++++++++++++++ "Can you answer questions that the village idiot would know the answers to?" The more you know about the day to day details of your life, the easier staying in persona becomes. Think of it as a challange to learn everything about your alter-ego. 1. What is your name? How did you get your name? Is there an English translation or equivalent? 2. When are you from? What year is it? When where you born? How do you tell time? When does the day start (dawn, midnight, etc.)? 3. What are your parents' names? Are your parents alive? Do you have any brothers and sisters? How many brothers and sisters died in infancy? Into what social class were you born? What is the structure of the family/clan/tribe? Are the children raised at home or fostered elsewhere? 4. With whom do you live? Are you married? What are the marriage customs of your people? Are there people in your household who are not related to you? 5. Where do you live? Name the country or province you live in. Are you from a city, a village, a manor, a farm, etc.? What kind of building do you live in? How far is it to the capitol city? (in miles or units of measure your persona would have used) Have you ever been there? 6. What is your station in life? Are you a noble, a peasant, or other? Are you wealthy or poor? Is your station in life likely to change? 7. How do you support your lifestyle? If a member of the gentry - where does your money come from? Monopolies on certain trade? Which ones, and how did your family obtain them? Do you have an occupation? Do you work a trade? Do you belong to a Guild? What is your Guild rank? (and does your work merit this rank) Would you have been required to be a guild member to practice your trade? What are your daily responsibilities? How do you get paid? 8. What is the basic unit of money? How much does a loaf of bread cost? If you own one, how much is a riding horse? How much did your home cost? 9. Do you have servants? How much do they get paid? (and if not money, what do they get) What are their jobs? What are their living arrangements? (do they live in, are they serfs, etc.) 10. How do you keep clean? How often do you bathe? What preparations must be made for your bath? 11. What do you wear? How do you obtain or make your clothing? Is what you have on your everyday garb? How does it differ from your other garb? Do you wear underwear? What kind? How do you care for your clothes? Do you have many clothes? Are there laws regarding what you wear? What are they? Were they commonly followed? How would you have gotten around the law? 12. What do you eat? What is your typical daily menu? Does your menu change during the year? How and where do you get what you eat? How is your food cooked and preserved? How is it served (table manners and dining customs)? Are there religious restrictions on your diet? What spices do you use (consistant with your means)? Are they imported? What is your favorite drink? Is it imported? Can your persona afford it in the quantities you drink at an event? How much does the drink cost versus your income? 13. What would you be doing on an average day? Assume that your country is at peace and you are at home. If you are a military man, describe what you would be doing at your garrison or military "base". 14. What do you do for fun? What entertainment is available to you? Do you provide entertainment for others? How? 15. Are you literate? How were you educated? (taught at home, church, school, etc.) What language(s) do you speak? Did you go to school? What subjects did you study? How did you learn to do your work? Who taught you? 16. What is your religion? Who is the current pope? (non-Christians would also know this) If you are Christian, and there is more than one Pope, which one do you support? Do your people believe in magic? What kind? Is it lawful? What kinds of things are lucky or unlucky? 17. Who is your overlord? (His title, name of the estate/castle, and your duties to him) Who is your ultimate ruler? Is he/she popular with the class that you are a member of? Who rules the neighboring peoples? Who are the enemies/rivals of your people? 18. What wars have there been in your lifetime where you have lived? How did they affect you? (lost your land, starved for a while, etc.) Did your country win or lose? How did this affect your family? Do you personally fight? Under what circumstances? What armor is worn and what weapons are used in your time and place? (answer this even if you do not fight) How do people of your time and place get weapons and armor? 19. What kind of medical care is available to you? Who provides your medical care? Do you provide medical care for others? What kind of diseases have you had? What was the method of treatment? 20. What kind of legal system do you have? Who makes the laws? What happens to those who break them? How does this affect you? What is the status of women among your people? Can they own land or property? What trades can they enter? 21. What are the most distant lands you know of? Have you traveled? Where? What were the circumstances of your travel? (merchant, soldier pilgrim, nomad, sailor, explorer, etc.) 22. Who are the heros (contemporary, historical, or legendary) of your people? What stories do your people tell? What "Mythical" creatures do you believe in? 23. How many generations of your family would your persona really have been aware of? (most 20th century people cannot bet back farther than 3 generations) 24. Have any events had a profound effect on your life? (This is your chance to dazzle 'em with dates) Have fun... -- al Thaalibi -- An Crosaire, Trimaris Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL afn03234 at freenet.ufl.edu From: Chris Zakes / Tivar Moondragon <102435.2644 at CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: developing a persona things to look for Date: 1 Jul 1995 02:31:38 GMT On developing a persona: First, know your local politics--who is your local lord, what is the state of feudalism at this time, and how political life is organised. For instance, in 1342 England, feudalism is well advanced, and my local lord, if in a town, would be the mayor or the baron of the area. I serve my lord husband, and he, depending on his profession, serves the baron. Second, what is your position in this time period? Are you the wife of a minor noble (you run his household), or are you a merchant of good standing (your opinions in the town council are fairly respected), or are you a minor journeyman (most people treat you as less than their equal). Third, what do you eat, what do you use for money, what do you wear, what does your local area produce, etc.? Cookbooks are great for the first of these, and historical letters are good for the rest. England is a great sheep/wool producer. You would likely be involved in some aspect of sheeps and wool if you are in the least agricultural. Fourth, it would be a good idea to know your ultimate ruler (King of England, Holy Roman Emperor, or what?). How he ran his court and entourage is a good model for how you would behave. Also, what clothes you wear dictate how you curtsey/bow. A corseted woman CANNOT bend at the waist--her upper body must remain upright. A man in chain wouldn't bend over too much for fear of overbalancing! --Aethelyan of Moondragon 102435,2644 From: brettwi at ix.netcom.com (Brett Williams ) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Being in Persona Date: 28 Aug 1995 21:33:45 GMT "Brett W. McCoy" writes: >>FROM: Barbara H. Webb >> >>While on the topic I was interested by Cariadoc's post suggesting that >>being non-modern though non-historic in persona (like the Tuchux) may be >>preferrable to doing something historic, such as wearing 16th century garb, >>while behaving as your modern self. I'm not sure I agree, but I would be >>very interested to hear what others think on this point. > >I myself would rather see people being more in persona than just >wearing the garb. The garb, of course, does lend itself to the Magic >of an event, but this can quickly be shattered by someone walking in >the middle of a conversation with "Yo, Jim! Did you see the bug list >for the new Linux Shell I stuck in such-and-such archive?" Yes, indeed, most jarring to hear such a thing. I also find jarring the phrase: "My persona is a 16th Century Scotswoman..." A personal pet peeve, perhaps. Would it not be better said: "I am a Scotswoman, and the monarch of Scotland is wrongfully imprisoned by That Woman who rules the realm south of these lands. I have fled to the land of Caid as the nobles ruling our land in the name of her son have named my family and clan anaethema to their interests..." I'm using myself as an example. >But complaining about it isn't going to fix things, certainly. We >should respond to such things with appropriate courtesy and provide an >example of being 'in period' persona-wise: "Forsooth, good sir, your >language is strange to me and I know not of what you speak. Pray, >come join us for a bit of drink and good company...." and so on. > >I have started doing monthly Period Nights in my shire, where we get >together for a small private revel, with a potluck feast and a Bardic >circle. Appropriate garb is required, and the 20th century is left >behind, not unlike the Enchanted Ground at Pennsic. This gives people >the opportunity to practice at being in persona without being >embarassed or self-conscious. It is also a good introduction to >newcomers as to How We Play. > >Istvan Dragosani >bmccoy at capaccess.org Oh, hear, hear! One of the most vivid memories of my early years of the Society was attending a Kingdom-level event in Caid where his Grace, Duke Cariadoc, was present as he lived in Caid at that time. I play a fretted dulcimer, and when his Grace asked me what my instrument was, I was dumbfounded as to what to say to The Real Thing, an Arab noble. I stammered something to the effect that my instrument was a modern form of a period instrument, and didn't fail to note the fleeting expression of disappointment that flashed across his face as I 'lost character' and spoiled the encounter for him. We do not have customary behaviors firmly in place that enable us to 'step in' to our medieval selves and leave mundanity behind. My encounter with Duke Cariadoc was more than ten years ago and I remember it vividly since it made such an impact on my thought concerning my own participation in the Society. Your Grace, if you read this message, the answer to your question should have been: "The local artisan who made my instrument modeled it after Phythagoras' monochord, but chose to shape the soundbox after his own fashioning." ciorstan macAmhlaidh, CHA, AoA From: IVANOR at delphi.com Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: De-saturation (was Being in Persona) Date: 4 Sep 1995 01:04:02 GMT Quoting afn03234 from a message in rec.org.sca >My Lady and friends swear that once I'm dressed, I even walk >differently. All I know is that after spending a Friday evening I know how that is. I have two personas, and a friend who swears that they are not only dissimilar in general appearance, they aren't even the same size! (Ivanor is much daintier of build than Sesi.) I have another friend whose persona doesn't like the same kinds of music he does, AND VICE VERSA. Maybe this really is a form of group, guided, multiple personality disorder? Carolyn Boselli, Host of Custom Forum 35, SCAdians on Delphi Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: ederd at bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Dani Eder) Subject: Re: help with persona development Organization: The Boeing Company Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 19:33:52 GMT mharri6736 at aol.com (MHarri6736) writes: >some kind gentleman several months ago gave me a great list of things to >consider in deeloping a persona. i have misplaced this. several people >have asked me for advise on books and things to consider for persona >development. i wonder if someone out there could give me advise to pass >along to some of the other students who don't have a computer access A number of years ago I was introduced to an SCA persona game called "The Inquisition". The point of the game was both to be fun and to stimulate thought and research on a persona. This is from memory, perhaps others can suggest additional questions: The rules: The game is played by a number of players and a set of 'Inquisitors'. In a small group the Inquisitors may simply be the other players. The players are asked a series of questions by the inquisitors, which they must answer correctly for their persona. This means in some cases not knowing the answer. Questions are graded on a point scale according to difficulty. If a player answers correctly, they get the number of points associated with the question. If they answer incorrectly they get 'tortured', which involves rolling a six-sided die. On the first torture they must roll more than a one, on the second torture they must roll greater than a two, etc. If they succeed, they have survived the torture and can continue to play. If they fail, they have 'died' from the torture, and are out of the game. The last player alive, or the one who dies with the most points wins. The inquisitors decide the correctness of the answers by consensus. Bluffing is allowed (i.e. faking an answer and hoping the inquisitors don't know the correct answer). Players are asked questions in rotation, and they start a turn by deciding what difficulty question they will attempt next. For fun, you can make a list of tortures and play-act being tortured. The questions (point value) What is your name? (1) What was your father's name (2) What was your mother's name (2) What does your name mean (3) How many brothers and sisters do you have (3) What are their names (4) What kingdom do you live in (or equivalent) (1) What city or town do you live in/near (2) Who is the king/head of state (2) Who is your immediate liege lord (4) If in a city/town, what street do you live on (4) What do you do? (1) Where is your usual place of work (2) How old were you when you started to work (3) What year is it (1) What calendar date is it (3) How long has the king been on the throne (4) How old are you (1) On what day were you born? (3) What time is it (4) What is your principal grain (3) What is your principal meat (2) What is your principal drink (1) How many sets of clothes do you own (2) How often do you get new clothes (3) Where do you sleep (2) With whom do you sleep (3) On/in what do you sleep (furnishings) (3) What do you wear when you sleep (4) How do you relieve yourself (3) How do you bathe (4) How often do you bathe (3) What language do you speak (1) What other languages do you speak (2) Can you read (2) In what language do you read (3) How many books do you own (4) Name your favorite book (4) Name another book you have read (5) ---------- If you think about it, anyone should be able to answer most of these questions about themselves quite easily. If the other good gentles on the Rialto would like to contribute questions, I will collate them and repost. If you think my point values are off, let me know (the scale is supposed to be 1=very easy to 5=very hard). Daniel of Raven's Nest From: fghtrchick at aol.com (Fghtrchick) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Chronologically Challenged Couples Date: 21 Jan 1996 12:48:02 -0500 Katherine, My persona was made with one thought in mind---I never wanted to be "with" anyone permanently in the SCA (my mundane marriage, at the time, didn't incline me to ever want to experience ANY permanence again). Consequently, I had her set up to be the widowed, childless, penniless, pretty-much forgotten younger sister of a French-Norman knight in the Scottish Lowlands. (and thereby, completely unmarriageable, but not necessarily, virginal) Wel-l-l-l, the best-laid plans... I will be married to an extremely early period Celt twice--once in May at our clan's Beltain celebration, and once, legally, in church(?), at the end of September. So, how does a nice 12th Century girl explain that strangely-dressed 6th Century man hanging about? I have to say, I pretty much don't worry about it, but I guess I could say he's my eccentric huntsman. And if (when) he becomes king, I'll just time travel back and be 6th Century for a while, after all, if he worked that hard and actually became king, it would be unfair to make him change periods. This may not be exactly what you wanted, but it is how we deal with our "chronilogically-challenged" relationship. Lady Alys de Clermont Ancient Ring Tribe and Alliance College of Dragon's Crossing From: jkrissw at aol.com (JkrissW) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Chronologically Challenged Couples Date: 22 Jan 1996 06:08:06 -0500 The answer is simple: Although you are both from a particular time and place of your own choosing, you met and married in one of the Laurel Kingdoms. How people from what seems to you like a completely different land and era than your own came to be here at the same time as you is a mystery beyond your understanding. Kriss White (Daveed of Granada ended up in Caid after the Mother of All Sandstorms hit his Sahara caravan, and has been living in the wonderously tolerant land of the Laurel Kingdoms ever since, where nobody expects one to dress in the local fashion because everybody came from somewhere else and brought their clothing styles with them.) From: brianw at gate.net (Brian Wilkins) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Chronologically Challenged Couples Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 10:51:32 GMT Organization: CyberGate, Inc. >So what do you do persona-wise if your partner is a couple of hundred years >away from you? Disown them? Provide some sort of explanation as to why >you're hanging around with someone even though they don't belong in your >timeframe? What? What do do? Nothing. Ignore the whole deal. In a club where 6th century Celts share the battlefield with Italian Condotierre, or where a 14th century Scot can debat the writings of Aquinas and Bede with a 17th century French cavalier the time period of our personnas has no binding meaning that we do not individually wish to impose on ourselves. If you and you're husband are having fun by trying to reconcile your differences then go ahead, but there is nothing in the nature of the SCA that forces changes on you. A worse problem would be to construct what my friends and I smilingly call "iceberg personnas". They sound something like this: My father was frozen in an iceberg and floated to Japan, which explains my martial arts training, then I escaped to the mainland by signing on a merchant ship to China, which explains my knowledge of sailing, and after wandering for a few years I got a job as a cook in the kitchens of the Emporer, which explains my knowledge of Gourmet Cooking. Then I met Marco Polo, and he hired me as a guard, and one of the other guards taught me archery, and I eventually returned to Italy with him where I worked was a guard to a physician, which explains my medical (EMT) training. Then, the physician got me a job with an armorer, which expalins my armoring skill. Eventually I made enough money to form my own condotierri company, and was engaged to the daughter of the Duke of Milan, which explains my court barony...... ad nauseum. This is obviously an artificial construct which exaggerates to make a point (or rather it SHOULD be, I've heard worse than this from people who meant it, but that's another story) but the you get the idea. You have very little to gain by making artificial constructs to justify discrepancies between your person and your personna. Your personna is not yourself, and your personna story is not a resume of the things you have done, nor is it a portrait of the relationships you have with other people in the SCA. If you are looking for ways to counter the "accusations" that are being humorously (I assume it was humorous, your post makes it seem so) directed towards your personna there are better ways than to compromise the historical integrity of "her" story. All of our personnas are both a tool for historical research, an a story that we share with others, and both of these endeavors are given short shrift when we devise artificial constructs to suit other, less appropriate, ends. Brian Wilkins SCA: Braian MacNaughton From: mellitus7 at aol.com (Mellitus7) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Religous Personas (was: I thought the SCA ...) Date: 7 Jun 1996 18:28:02 -0400 Personally, I have no qualms about an individual assuming a religous persona, provided that a couple of criteria are met. These being (and fairly common sensical) that the individual in question make no pretentions that he or she really is something that he or she is not or that the individual in question soes not violate Corpora and Govening Policy with the actions of the persona. I think most people's initial response is negative because they a) believe that the individual with the religous persona is really what the garb proclaims that one to be or b) believe that the imitation tarnishes the reputation of hte original and/or the SCA. However, the persona is tool by which we research our periods and interests, and if a person's period/interests lie in the clerical aspect of the period, then a religous persona makes sense. In the two cases of religous persona research I am aware of, both made some people (myself included) uncomfortable at first. Then as I came to know these gentles, I understand that they were just SCA folk with different garb. Neither made any pretentions of really "being" a nun. Another tack would be to adopt a persona of noble birth affiliated (but not avowed) to a religous order. There were many lay bretheren and sisters who lived and worked alongside the professed religous. They wore virtually the same clothing and did the same the things as those under vows. Mellitus From: zarlor at acm.org (Lenny Zimmermann) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Fun vs Authenticity/My hubby's OOP for me!! Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 21:35:28 GMT kimiv at ix.netcom.com(Kimberly A. Ingram) wrote: > In this thread there has been debate as to which is the greater >sin, a completely OOP object or one that is within the Society's scope, >but out OOP for an individuals persona. I have a dilema that runs >along these lines. [snip] > We are a >couple in reality, but in persona I'm dust long before his time. >Should we not act like a married couple when in persona? Would it >adversely effect peoples ability to suspend reality should we ever sit >a throne togeather? Should we each have an alternate persona to match >that of our mate and take turns? > What are others experiences in coping with this phenomenon? Up to >this point I've preety much just ignored this wrinkle and I'm >interested in other solutions and/or rationalization. My wife and I have a similar situation, but less extreme. My persona is 1530's Northern Italian, while her's is 1590's Elizabethan English. I had long considered that my persona was in the "Knowne World" and somehow no longer in the lands that he once knew in Europe, but Don Giovanni (aka "Dr. Bill") from the East (I believe) Kingdom helped to clarify my initial impressions better. He mentioned a book written by one of my persona's contemporaries.. "Orlando Furioso" by Ludovico Ariosto. This is a period form of story called a "travelers's tale", effectively similar to what we would call a novel in the style of the "fantasy" genre. How else would a person from the 16th century be meeting those "barbarian" vikings and ancient romans long dead, unless s/he were at a costume party or no longer in the world s/he once knew. I explain it as leaving Italy, for reasons not relevant to this thread, and heading off for the New World, only to be caught in a storm and end-up in the Knowne World. I met my wife here, not in Europe. Many things are strange to my persona, but at least they are explainable this way. And I use the motivations of wanting to surround "myself" with things from my time and place that would help my persona to feel more comfortable to give me more reason to keep authentic to the time I am studying instead of trying to mish-mash other times and places into the scenario directly surrounding Lionardo. This helps me to feel more in character without having to resort to some other fantasy that I would personally find more difficult to accept. Such as "killing" someone on the list field, instead of looking at it as a tournament with bated blades where we fall down and "die" for showmanship and the edification of the nobles present. That way I can "kill" my friends and still have those friends later. ;-) I could say more on how other such situations fit into this mindset but I think you can get the idea. This is a method I find I can use to help make things more understandable in the context of what my persona might see. Perhaps that could work for you as well, especially if you can find any stories in your persona's time period that would help substantiate your viewpoint. I wish you the best of luck in deciding how you wish to reconcile these differences for your persona! Honos Servio, Lionardo Acquistapace, Barony of Bjornsborg, Ansteorra (mka Lenny Zimmermann, San Antonio, TX) zarlor at acm.org From: Chris Zakes Date: September 26, 2006 8:41:21 PM CDT To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Odd question reguarding persona development At 07:09 PM 9/26/2006, you wrote: > On Sep 26, 2006, at 4:25 PM, Susan wrote: > >> I was pondering persona earlier and wondering just how close one's >> persona is to be to historic people? In that manner that we are >> presumed to be of the gentry (I can't remember the exact on this), this >> was a limited population in period-some times and places more so that >> others.. Where is the line on presumptions of our relationships of the >> actual people who lived in period? This has always confused me, it is >> one of those paradoxes that I have never really been able to work >> out to a degree I am comfortable with. >> >> Susan the Curious > > You cannot claim to be someone who actually lived in period. You > can't be Charlemagne or Joan of Arc or King Henry, but you can be one > of Charlemangne's gardeners or King Henry's mistress. > > The assumption is that everyone is of gentle birth, however, that > doesn't mean you can't play a serf, a peasant, a merchant or a > tradesman if you wish. If you choose a lower class as that of your > persona, it can set up some conflicts you have to work around. For > instance, as a non-gentle, how do you handle getting an Award of > Arms? I recall a lady from Meridies, who was present at the Anvil War, getting her Award of Arms. She, too, was a peasant, and when she realized why they'd called her into Court, she ran off and hid in the bathroom. His Majesty (Sir Francois, if I remember correctly) promptly got up from his throne, strode to the back of the hall, held open the bathroom door and had his herald read her scroll anyway. -Tivar Moondragon From: "willowdewisp at juno.com" Date: June 16, 2007 11:30:00 PM CDT To: ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org Subject: [Ansteorra] "direputable" <<< Two things to remember, 1)It IS called "Persona PLAY" 2) If you insist on playing an unpopular Persona, expect to be treated "in character" as the Persona would have been treated. Then, remembering those two points, have fun playing the game. If, on the other hand, you cannot stand being treated like a criminal, during the event where you are a pirate persona, I strongly advise you to choose another persona. Ld Adm Robert Haddock:; Ansteorran Royal Navy, Ret. >>> This is very important wisdom. Please remember a real ninja, pirate, highwayman, member of Robin Hoods band and anyone else who is doing something that is not approved by regular society would not go into a tavern an announce, "I am a Ninja,etc" No real pirate would publicly claim he was a pirate. I remember at the first war with the Middle aka 'Willow's War". A young Caldal Lady was approach by a gentleman and look at her and said he was a Ninja. The young Lady replied in persona that she would never have anything to do with an assassin. I don't approve of pirate in persona, but I didn't look askance at my sons going a Viking. Also I don't ask questions when people come into my port with strange objects. If a person is doing something illegal it is normal for him/her to not put it out in the open. This can also be if you are running with people who normally wouldn't travel with you. For example, you are a Finn traveling with a bunch of Norsemen. I have a lot of respect for personas who quietly show what they are without announcing it. Willow From: Susan McMahill Date: January 26, 2008 7:02:10 PM CST To: "ansteorra at ansteorra.org" Subject: [Ansteorra] Personna play Much has been said lately about high persona play. Sir JP has expressed feelings that are much like my own, from what I can tell. I have always loved history. Have studied it closely ever since I was a tot. I have also spent most of my life being incredibly shy. I know that there are many who would have a hard time believing this now, but it is still true. I cannot do a cold sales call for love nor money and I hate making phone calls in many cases, especially to people I don't know. The idea of playing high persona is agonizing. I love the study, the learning, etc. but if I wanted to play high persona, I would join the cast of the local Ren Faire or community theater. Practicing high persona, in my opinion, is anachronistic to the maximum. If I were to play high persona, I would not speak to half of my friends in the SCA. A late 12th century Norman/English woman would hardly socialize with Vikings (I married one), Welsh or Irish, and certainly would have little contact with Moors, Saracens, Scots, etc. Instead, I am an Ansteorran woman who has developed a basic persona because it is expected, and late 12th century England is where my interest lies. I will follow the customs of my land which has people of varied interests and cultures, and I will comport myself as a woman of Ansteorra. We have adopted many customs of earlier times, but speak the same language and accept people of other times and places as our own. While I have studied of Henry II, Richard, John, and Queen Eleanor of blessed memory, MY king and queen are Aaron and Vanessa. The persona I will play is that which I live. Vivat Anstorra! My homeland, My dream! Lyneya de Grey From: Rose & Chad Date: January 26, 2008 7:24:48 PM CST To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Personna play <<< Susan McMahill wrote: I am an Ansteorran woman who has developed a basic persona because it is expected, and late 12th century England is where my interest lies. I will follow the customs of my land which has people of varied interests and cultures, and I will comport myself as a woman of Ansteorra. We have adopted many customs of earlier times, but speak the same language and accept people of other times and places as our own. While I have studied of Henry II, Richard, John, and Queen Eleanor of blessed memory, MY king and queen are Aaron and Vanessa. The persona I will play is that which I live. Lyneya de Grey >>> I have to agree with that. First, when I was about fourteen or fifteen, I made a personna of a girl from 13th century England. I researched like mad and loved every minute of it. At about seventeen, I spent alot of time researching the Byzantine for my new persona and loving every minute of it. About two years ago, I started research for my new(est) persona, a sailor from the 1500s. In the meantine, having no talent for sewing, my garb is pretty basic but not specific to this persona nor the one before that. (But could probably pass for the first persona I created.) I'm sure that in a few years, I will have exhausted my interest in a full-time study of this time and place, and will be on to the next stage in history. I've always felt really guilty that my interest in medieval history didn't stick to a specific time and place, but now I feel that I can spend a few years on one time, and the next on another, and that's okay. The beauty of medieval history is that there's so damn much of it and it's all so interesting that I joined a reenactment group where I play at history with dozens of other people who feel roughly the same way. :) Kind of like that last scene in Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure, when they're giving thier history report, only with more representatives from times and places... And in the end, as Lady de Grey has very eloquently stated, no matter what time and place my interest wanders to, I am in Ansteorra now. Vivat! R the O From: "willowdewisp at juno.com" Date: January 27, 2008 5:26:46 PM CST To: ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] why Personna play I want everyone to know that I think persona play has many levels and playing like you live in the Kingdom Ansteorra is perfectly valid. Somehow persona play got associated with things like Duke Caradoc does. Most Lions in Ansteorra play it a little different. We might float back and forth from being Ultra high, That is acting like you are really in the past in another country to just being what we are in Ansteorra. The medieval construct, Ansteorra allows to explore how it would feel to live in a medieval world. But it is a social construct and takes everyone working together to make it live. Many of the values that everyone cherish as part of the our combined viewpoints of the construct. We have created a community around the construct. That community has norms and values. The stronger the social reality of the community the stronger the norms and values. Therefore it is important that everyone to stay in character if we want the norms and values of our community to be taken seriously. Our medieval construct has several pillars. The first one comes out of out fighting. Our fighting is based on studying and recreating the fighting style and fighting values of Chivalry of the middle ages. The Code of behavior of our Martial art , not sport is the code that was presented in the literature We are looking for the "perfect fighter" who is the "good man" not the reality of the Middle age but what "they" thought it ought to be. The whole spirit of the SCA is bound up with our fighting and without the code we would lose much of "the Dream". The Second Pillar of our community comes from "the code of courtesy". Unlike the "Code of Chivalry" which was written down by 19th century writers the "code of courtesy" has never been codified. It is the behavior expected between the fighter and non fighter. In historical term this usually meant the fighting man and woman and clerics . In the literature there were some reference to fighting woman and they were expected in the literature to behave toward non fighters the same way as fighting men. It is out of the expectation of courtesy that we get our norms and values concerning gentle men's behavior toward ladies in the SCA. Many of out norms and values also stem from the Southern mind think. about the medieval world. Please remember it was Mark Twain that stated the Civil War was caused by the Southerners preoccupation with with Chivalry. When I was a little girl these values were very much alive in the general populace but in the last 20 years the world have move away from these ideals. Many young people don't understand were we are coming from. When I was young I had a strong understanding of medieval mind thinks and literature and I could start playing the SCA right from the start. I wonder if young people find what we are doing a little confusing. Could this confusion be one of the reasons for lower recruitment? willow From: "willowdewisp at juno.com" Date: February 11, 2008 8:13:50 PM CST To: ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org Subject: [Ansteorra] persona play late period English One of the ways to build persona is to look at highly respected people of the period and use them as a role model. If you were really living in the time you night do that. For example William Mashall was considered The "perfect knight" so looking at him could tell you how to behave as a gentleman and knight in the Kingdom of Ansteorra. I have a list of "worthies" that were put out in late 15th century. You might want to look into them. I would be interested you your opinions about these individuals. Nine Worthies of London is a book by Richard Johnson, the English romance novelist, written in 1592. Borrowing the theme from the Nine Worthies of Antiquity, the book, subtitled Explaining the Honourable Excise of Armes, the Vertues of the Valiant, and the Memorable Attempts of Magnanimous Minds; Pleasaunt for Gentlemen, not unseemly for Magistrates, and most profitable for Prentises, celebrated the rise of nine famous Londoners through society from the ranks of apprentices or ordinary citizens. The nine were: Sir William Walworth, who killed Wat Tyler, the leader of Peasants' Revolt of 1381. Sir William was originally a fishmonger, and later twice became Lord Mayor of London (in 1374 and 1380). Sir Henry Pritchard, a vintner, who in 1356 provided a feast for Edward III and 5,000 men returning from France, including Edward the Black Prince; John, King of Austria; the King of Cyprus; and David, King of Scotland. Sir William Sevenoke, who fought against the Dauphin in France, and later, having made money as a grocer, became a philanthropist and built twenty almshouses and a school. He was Lord Mayor in 1418 and in 1420 became a Member of Parliament. Sir Thomas White, who, in 1554, helped keep the citizens loyal to Mary Tudor during Wyatt's rebellion. A merchant tailor and son of a poor clothier, he founded St John's College, Oxford. He became both Sheriff and later Lord Mayor of London. Sir John Bonham, a mercer, who was entrusted with a valuable cargo bound for Denmark and found favour at the Danish court. While there he was made commander of the army raised to stop the progress of the "great Solyman". He made peace with the Turkish leader and returned to England a rich man. Christopher Croker, originally a vintner, who with the Black Prince assisted Pedro of Castile in maintaining his claim to the throne of Castile. Sir John Hawkwood, who served under Edward III in France and later became a mercenary commander in Italy, where he was known as Giovanni Acuto. He was the son of an Essex tanner or a London tailor. Sir Hugh Calverley, a silk weaver, who was a renowned hunter and famed for killing a huge boar (or bear) for the Poles. Sir Henry Maleverer, generally called Henry of Cornhill, a grocer who lived in the reign of Henry IV. He was a knight in the Crusades, and highly regarded by the King of Jerusalem. He eventually fell out of favour and became the guardian of Jacob's Well in the Holy Land. From: DonPieter at aol.com Date: July 16, 2008 5:55:40 PM CDT To: ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org Subject: [Ansteorra] persona execution <<< Sounds like a fun idea, actually. When the name I had been researching got passed, I put my old name 'In a box.' Linet gets out occasionally, usually when there is mischief about, but the idea of killing the old personna off......hm sounds interesting. If I ever decide to change my personna, I will consider Lyneya's demise. Lyneya de Grey >>> Well just let me know if I can help. Here is what I normally do. I get a set of old garb that the old persona has worn in public. Make an effigy Execute the old persona at an event. (The site may not work with some methods i.e. burn ban no stake, open field with no trees no hanging) I will announce after the effigy is dead "The persona is dead, long live the persona" Give a signed copy of the warrant of death to the new persona who was "there as a witness" which they sign. This way anyone coming up to them using the old name can be shown that, no in fact that person no longer exists and that they personally saw the execution. Clearing up any issues. Fun and wake parties can be had by all. Pieter Edited by Mark S. Harris persona-msg Page 28 of 28