Stefan's Florilegium

persona-msg

persona-msg - 12/5/96

Persona development. Ideas about personas.

NOTE: See also the files: personas-msg, persona-art, per-insanity-msg
and per-lepers-msg.

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NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that
I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some
messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium.
These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with
seperate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes
extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were
removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I
make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the
individual authors.

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these
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time. If information is published from these messages, please give
credit to the orignator(s).

Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: Lord Stefan li Rous
mark.s.harris@motorola.com stefan@florilegium.org
************************************************************************

From: Theron.Bretz@f555.n387.z1.fidonet.org (Theron Bretz)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Surprise! Surprise!
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1993 20:39:00 -0500

From the pen(?) of Etienne de Montagu, good greetings:
Regarding awards that "don't fit the persona", I'd like to share a tale:
Many moons ago, there lived in my barony (Bjornsborg,
Ansteorra) a gentle called Leon Donne, a goodly fellow for yeoman
stock. Leon's persona was (still is) an English bowman straight out of
Henry V. When he got his AoA, his solution to the problem was to carry
it (the scroll) around in a leather case at his belt wherever he went,
so that he could prove his right to hunt the King's deer. One day,
some friends of his with more "noble" personas cornered him and
confronted him about "pretending to be a Lord". Leon presented the
scroll to the threesome and the exchange went something like this:
Godwyn (holding the scroll upside down): Michael, you're a Norman, can
you read?
Michael: I thought you could....
Martha (grabbing the scroll away) Here, I can read..... wait this isn't
Portugese!
Leon grabs his scroll and ducks out
Exeunt omnes
I remain,
Etienne de Montagu

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: sclark@epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Clark)
Subject: Re: Persona Development
Organization: University of Toronto - EPAS
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 23:56:51 GMT

For me, persona development is just plain fun. It has caused
me to look into a variety of things I probably would not have looked
at had I remained your basic Medieval History PhD student, including
food, dress, housing, the literature Nicolaa would have read, town
stucture, the agricultural year, etc. Sure, I might have read books
on these subjects, but as I spend most of my time looking at penetential
manuals, law texts, and charrs these days, I certainly would not
have paid much attention to issues of practical use....
I really don't use my persona much at SCA events, beyond the
surface presentation. Where I do use it is in smaller situations
(a roundtable of Anglo-Normans, for instance) and in school demos.
For the latter, a developed persona is a wonderful thing...I can tell
stories about my home, my family, what I do with the day, whether I can
read and write, my brother the Franciscan and my other brother who
is anxious to go on crusade, the fact that I was one of seven children,
only three of whom made it to adulthood.......you get the idea.
Persona development is a matter of personal taste....but I do
find that I tend to get on better with those who have put time into
their personas....always something to talk about when the fighting gets
dull....

Regards
Nicolaa/Susan
sclark@epas.utoronto.ca

From: longo@eggo.usf.edu (Andrea Longo)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Persona Development
Date: 20 Jul 1993 17:21:51 GMT
Organization: University of South Florida, Department of Computer Science and
Engineering

eric-smith@ksc.nasa.gov (Eric C. Smith) writes:
>As we interact and try to rec-reate (as opposed to re-create) the middle
>ages, we wondered 'Why persona development?' What is the purpose behind
>personae development, do we really use it, does it really affect how we
>play the game, is it necessary, can it be beneficial to what we try to do,
>and do we really use the personas we develop as a means for interpreting
>and communicating what we have learned and are trying to teach others?

I try to give my persona as much detail as possible, doing so gives me a
context for her position in the Society. I try to be in persona but it is
often hard to do consistantly. Asleif, the 9th c Viking servant doesn't know
how to deal with running errands for officers, managing a mundane kitchen,
doing paperwork or any of the modern things that Andrea has to deal with at
events. Asleif, however, *can* look after children, prepare food in camp,
fetch and carry, etc, without looking too out of place. I try to at least
maintain the apperance when possible.

Some time back, we sat around discussing just this thing and came to the
conclusion that, while we try to play our persona, we sometimes feel that we
were "too busy working" to do it well.

When I was deciding on the details of Asleif's life, I took into account what
I tended to do most at events so I can incorporate that into my persona. I
try to consider what Asleif might know when selecting garb and accessories,
but tempered by the reality of the Florida climate. (For example, Asleif
"borrows" clothing and jewelry from the household when she is requested to
look presentable for court; those things are more appropriate for someone far
above her station. Andrea knows better.)

>rarely see others that expend the same effort as we. Are we wasting our
>time? Should we continue or should we do the minimum and become that
>generic SCA 'being' that does 650 to 1650 all at the same time, with no
>particular country or time, and sit around discussing SCA history rather
>than medieval history. Is this really what the Society is about or do we
>sell something to others that really doesn't exist?

We are certainly not wasting our time, although sometimes, in exasperation, it
feels like it. I am very happy that I am part of a household with a
"persona," a cohesive common background makes it easier to add bits here and
there instead of trying to create the whole thing from scratch by myself.
True, I have been guilty of the "Generic SCA" thing but I try to at least
present a recognizable origin when I can; if it is not my actual persona, then
at least something specific within the SCA timeframe. (Much of my running
around, working garb is Norman-style, Viking is often too heavy. It helps
that I am unmarried and can get away without a veil and lower-class and not
expected to be picture-perfect.)

My friends and I often do speak about medieval history in the present tense
and it adds a lot of atmosphere to the encampment. I always want to learn
more, even if Asleif probably wouldn't have a clue about most of it, nor would
anyone feel it necessary to tell her. (Telemark treats Asleif rather well for
her station...)

I have wondered at times why I do all the work and research I do when many
people around me seem not to care. Happily, I have found a group of people
who also care about historical accuracy and they encourage me even when I feel
like giving up. I feel that if what I have done can encourage someone else to
do something, then it is time well spent. I like to think of myself as
setting an example and try to live up to that and at least be a good example.

Andrea (and Asleif, too)
longo@eggo.csee.usf.edu

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: moore@mari.acc.stolaf.edu (Michael Moore/Peregrine the Illuminator)
Subject: Re: Persona Development
Organization: Baronial Colleges of Nordleigh, SCA
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1993 18:03:11 GMT

Unto the good gentles of the rialto doth Peregrine the Illuminator send his
greetings in friendly fashion.

Concerning the idea: "I would love to be in persona at events, but I'm too
busy doing paperwork/sweeping the floor/working to do it."

I have found this same problem: an illuminator probably isn't about to
spend the valuable daylight hours doing the work of lesser servants,
like cleaning the hall, setting up tables/chairs, and the other things
I love to do at events. Thus, I find it is now time to change my persona
for events to "Peregrine the domestic seneschal", in charge of changing the
wash-water, emptying chamber-pots, replacing dirty floor-rushes, and clearing
the cobwebs from the corners. Judging from past exploits, I expect the
Autocrats of various events would love having such a servant wandering around.

If you have something you do at events, have it as one of your persona's jobs.
I'm glad to hear others are doing the same.

Peregrine

From: DDF2@cornell.edu (David Friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: The E-Ground (was Re: NOW SEE HERE!
Date: 12 Oct 1993 22:07:37 GMT
Organization: Cornell Law School

Jennifer Ann Bray asks:
> Do people who go in for personas find that after a while they are not
> conscious of the act? Do they feel as if it is themselves or another
> character they have created taking part?

Yes it becomes automatic. I feel like some mix of David being Cariadoc and
Cariadoc--who is another person I am. Cariadoc has much of David's
personality but different opinions, knowledge, etc.

> How do they react to peers expecting them to give deference?

I don't have that problem.

> Do they break persona to pass on
> modern information or do they stubbornly stay in character?

Sometimes I find ways of passing on the relevant information in persona,
sometimes I break persona, sometimes I figure that passing on modern
information is not worth breaking persona for.

> If you
> stay in persona all the time how do you ever find out how much of what
> is happening is based on real history and how much is fantasy?

You are out of persona after the event is over, and can talk with people,
correspond by EMail, post on the Rialto, ...

David/Cariadoc
DDF2@Cornell.Edu

From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: The E-Ground
Date: 12 Oct 1993 19:09:13 GMT

Greetings, all, from Terry Nutter, who is (rather less often
than she'd like) also sometimes Angharad ver' Rhuawn.

Jennifer raises some questions about personas and re-creation. I
think it's important to distinguish (at least) three different
things:

(1) Performing historical interpretations for the public.
(2) Acting out a part as part of a play.
(3) Trying to live out a part, for your personal enjoyment and
(dare I say it?) education.

The first, apparently, is what the group Jennifer belongs to mostly
does. It has a number of built-in restrictions. While those doing
it usually dress like someone from the time they are depicting, and
often do something such a person would do, their reason for being
there is to interact with modern members of the public who know little
or nothing about the time in question. It is simply not possible to
do this in a way that satisfies both the actor and the members of
the public, without the actor acting primarily as a modern person in
costume, who is knowledgeable about the period of interest.

I think it's real neat that this stuff gets done. I suspect that a
lot of people learn a lot, both from becoming competant to teach in
such a setting and from having their interest piqued by observing and
then going home and following up. It's great stuff. But it has
nothing to do with what I call being in persona.

Acting out a part as part of a play, whether on a formal stage or to
be showy, whether to a separate audience or to yourselves, is also
different from being in persona. Jennifer describes quasi-scripted
encounters, with stereotypical (but not, from her descriptions,
particularly realistic or accurate) behaviors among the participants
based on a one- to two-word description of their roles. ("Peasant"
meets "noble", so of course, "noble", being "noble", is haughty and
obnoxious, while peasant behaves as if peasant had read Dickens and
is emulating Uriah Heep.) The activity generally depends on a
concurrent awareness of the gap between then and now for its
enjoyability. For precisely this reason, it far more often expresses
itself as parody or farce than as what one gets, e.g., from Brian
Blessed playing Henry V's uncle.

That also has little to do with what I think of as being in persona.

To me, being in persona involves trying, so far as possible, to adopt
the attitudes and behaviors of someone with my "essence", if you will,
but whose life experience and social setting have been different. It's
sort of, who I might have been, had I been born and grown up elsewhere
and elsewhen. This is _terribly_ complex, because it is impossible to
tell what parts of who and what I am derive from personal history. But
the _attempt_ can start with things as simple as looking at what
Angharad's "job" was (administering a medieval household, and ensuring
the comfort of those who lived there), and then noticing how differently
I react to the world when that kind of concern sits at the front of my
mind instead of its back. Going on from there, one discovers effects;
one becomes aware of kinds of socialization one didn't think of before;
and Angharad slowly diverges from Terry. There are things she will do
that Terry generally won't; and _many_ vice-versa.

It isn't done to educate the general public. It _also_ isn't done to
get quick giggles off the primitiveness of medieval culture from the
outside. It's rather an attempt to push as far as one can toward
feeling what it was like to be in this situation from the inside.
I find it both fun and fascinating.

I can rarely do it without a lot of conscious effort. The thing that
makes this hardest, is that the settings I usually try it in are so
utterly unlike anything Angharad ever would have experienced or dealt
with (SCA events in general do not evoke anything distantly like a
medieval atmosphere) that she could _not_ respond normally to any of
it, and Terry is forced to keep intruding, saying, "Ignore that,"
and "Never mind." Since it's a whole lot easier to be Terry than to
be Angharad, most events destroy the effort at being in persona before
it can get off the ground, and getting less practice than I would like,
I'm not nearly so good at it as I wish I were.

Greg is so good at being Hossein that a huge proportion of Atlantia
seems to thing that _Greg_ is stuff. (Wrong answer, dudes. _Hossein_
is stuffy. _Greg_ calls Hossein stuffy.) But then, he's been doing
this twice as long as I have, and then some.

Hope this clarifies things a little, Jennifer!

Cheers,
-- Terry/Angharad

From: sclark@epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Clark)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Things my persona would have known
Date: 1 Jan 1994 20:45:30 -0500
Organization: EPAS Computing Facility, University of Toronto

Greetings....
Thought I'd offer my ideas on this topic. Here goes:

What time I got up and what time I went to bed (and how I'd keep
track of time during the day)
Basic foods I'd eat during the day
What my house would look like; furniture, etc.
A bit about my family: My mother and father (their names and what they
do), my brothers and sisters (Nicolaa has six, only two of which survived
to adulthood)
The locale in which I live: Is it a town? How big? is there a market
there? Who are the local lords/mayor..etec?
What I do with my day--do I practice a trade? Oversee an estate? etc.
My means of transportation
Big towns I've been to and what I did there
Education: how'd I get it? languages I know? Can I do arithmetic?
Religion: What do I do in church? How often do I go to Mass, go to
confession? (Nicolaa's Catholic) How do I celebrate holidays?
Am I married or not? (Nicolaa is). If yes, what did my wedding look like?
What parts of basic law affect me directly?
Bits about national politics which would directly affect me (in other words,
Nicolaa knows about the upcoming Crusade because her brother and liege
lord will be going. She probably doesn't know the intricacies of policy
debates, though she might hear rumours)...

This gives you a good idea. I can yack about myself and my family
for hours if I feel like it...this is truly "historical minutia", but
it's more fun for storytelling. (Susan knows plenty about what was really
going on in 1239--probably more than Nicolaa does, especially on theological
and legal matters)
I'd advise anyone who really wants to develop a good persona
to, once you've settled on a period and know its basic history, to start
with yourself and develop outward from there. Think about what you do in
your daily life in the 20th century and then think about what your persona
would have done. If you think thusly, you'll soon amass a knowledge
of little things which will make your persona more real. I personally
think it's more important for an English persona to knoa bit about
their own locale than to know about, say, the political situation and
its intracacies in Spain.
It's also a lot of fun to try to find literature and stories your
persona would have known, read, heard, or sung. It's sort of a final
refinement, and makes you very popular in the Enchanted Ground....

Cheers!
Nicolaa/Susan
Canton of Eoforwic

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mchance@nyx10.cs.du.edu (Michael Chance)
Subject: Things Your Persona Would Have Known
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 94 18:55:43 GMT

Leonora writes:
>Question for discussion:
>What would be a general list of "things your persona would've known" in
>his/her daily life? Obviously, it would vary dramatically according to
>time, location, and station, but I'd include local ruler(s), and current
>religious and political schisms. What else would you put in?

Currently popular liturature and music.

Current fashion trends (both local and neighboring - as in "Well, you
can tell he from Hellandgone - he's wearing an whatzit").

"Local rulers" should include religious (local priest, bishop,
archbishop, and pope [suitably modified for Orthodox Christianity,
Judaism, Islam, or whatever]) and secular (up to the
king/emperor/whatever). "Schisms" should identify the local and major
players in the different factions.

Economic overview, including which guilds and/or trade organizations
have the most influence, which are considered disreputable, etc.

Areas most traded with/travelled to.

Others?

Mikjal Annarbjorn
--
Michael A. Chance St. Louis, Missouri, USA "At play in the fields
Work: mc307a@sw1sta.sbc.com of St. Vidicon"
Play: ab899@freenet.hsc.colorado.edu
mchance@nyx.cs.du.edu

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Carolingian peasants
From: schuldy@zariski.harvard.edu (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Date: 17 Jan 94 09:41:23 EST

gunwaldt@astro.dasd.honeywell.com writes:
Query: Are the Carolingia peasants an enthusiastic group of rock grubbers?
Do they help create a better ambiance? Or is this just a local joke?

At one time, it was very much a "peasants guild", with sincere attempts to
create an alternative to the chronic number of nobility. Currently, it is
more at the level of a tradition that we maintain, or perhaps a local joke.
This is not to say that at some point it won't become a going concern again.

There is one local gentle, Rufus the Beggar, who doesn't "play" a peasant:
he is one. Torn clothes, dirty face, bashful demeanor. He does it so well
that he makes people slightly uncomfortable, sometimes. For example, when
he eats at feast, he pays the on-board price, but wanders from table to
table asking for a crust of bread, or something to eat. Very occasionally, I
would either give him "charity", or sometimes "cuff the churl", depending on
his mood, or mine, or whether I'm sure he's had enough to eat yet.

Rufus is an interesting case: he is certainly more authentic than many of
us, but at the same time he is so good at it, that people who don't know he
is playing, get a little concerned. I keep trying to spread the good words
around.

Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@math.harvard.edu)

From: meg@tinhat.stonemarche.org (meg)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Origin of term Rialto
Date: Tue, 05 Apr 94 11:07:38 EDT
Organization: Stonemarche Network Co-op

dnb105@psu.edu (Ferret) writes:
> Susan Clark writes:
> > The Rialto was recognized as a focal point in Venice long before
> >Shakespeare wrote about it. While reading up on Italian Ren culture last
> >year in preparation for an event set in Venice, 1472 I saw several mentions
> >of the Rialto bridge as a gathering spot (as well as a place where the
> >ladies of easy virtue went to exhibit their wares....)
>
> Now there's something to recreate !
>
> -Ferret-

Actually, I know of at least 2 _ladies_ at Pennsic who do precisely
that. They dress authentically for _ladies_ of their calling, and are
reputed to give an authentically medieval version of what they sell. Not
having availed myself of their services, I wouldn't know if it's truly
authentic...having followed the thread on medieval sex and the lack of
response to the queries for documentation of such practices, I suspect
not. Perhaps they merely do it forsoothly. :-)

Megan
==
In 1994: Linda Anfuso
In the Current Middle Ages: Megan ni Laine de Belle Rive
In the SCA, Inc: sustaining member # 33644

YYY YYY
meg@tinhat.stonemarche.org | YYYYY |
|____n____|

From: meg@tinhat.stonemarche.org (meg)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Religious Personae and Sabbath at Events
Date: Sun, 01 May 94 08:53:38 EDT
Organization: Stonemarche Network Co-op

HAROLD.FELD@hq.doe.GOV writes:
> Unto all who read these words, greetings from Yaakov:
>
> I think there is plenty of room for Christian display,
> although it raises an interesting question: Aside from
> puting a cross on your arms, how do you display Christian
> belief without being evengelical? Everyone who camps with
> me knows I'm Orthodox, since I get up every morning, put on
> Teffilin, face east, and pray for about 20 minutes. The
> kipah (thingy on top of my head) is also a giveaway. It
> also becomes real obvious when I consistently decline
> invites to share food or participate in certain prohibitted
> activities on Shabbos. How would a Christian overtly
> display religion, besides wearing a Cross?
>
> In Service and in curiousity,
>
> Yaakov

Hi Yaakov, Megan here!
My persona is a late 15th century Catholic. In my house at Pennsic I have
several "giveaway" clues to her religious preference...an ornately carved
gilded cruxifix on a little shelf, a rosary hanging on a nail near her
bed, several small devotional dipychs of the Virgin on a bookshelf, a
copy of Thomas a' Kempis (ok, the actual volume dates 150 years after my
persona lived, but it "looks old enough"), a latin psalter, and of
course, illuminated manuscripts which she is working on, which are books
of hours, done on commission. Most obvious is the large panel painting
of the Virgin and Child done in the manner of Durer which is handsomely
displayed front and center on the scriptorium. Other not so obvious
clues are the latin mottoes written on the walls and ceiling, some are
scriptural quotes, and the panel painting above the bed which depicts
animals from Noah's ark.

Also, I try to pepper my speech with appropriate religious phrases, which
mention saints and the Diety in a variety of pious and sometimes impious
ways. Cursing is a particular interest of mine...what did people in my
period say when vexed? Fortunately there are some good religious sermons
recorded in period which address this issue. I strive to keep the fine
line between play acting and actually cursing clear. ("No, Lord, _that_
time I was only fooling...it wasn't a _real_ curse at all. I was just
keeping in persona, doncha know." Well, I trust Him to know the
difference.
I also have approriate flowers in my garden...roses and lilies. The
symbology of medieval Christianity is rich and varied.

It was actually unusual for non-clergy in my period to wear crosses or
cruxifixes as personal adornment. But these symbols could be sublimated
into decorative embroidery to good effect.

Oh, I also forgot, there are several relics of the third degree upon my
shelf...a scrap of St. Luke's clothing, a nail from the cruxifixion, a
small vial of Mary's Milk, a rock from the Holy Seplchure, a piece of the
Holy Shroud, a replica of Veronica's Veil, etc.

I don't go showing these item off, of course. The merely reside in my
house as silent testimony to the piety of my persona.

Also, since she paints religious pictures, it's good for business.:-)

Now, for us uneducated goyim, could you provide an English translation
and short explanation for all the interesting stuff you described? I'm
afraid my Hebrew's a bit rusty. (ok, make that non-existant)

Megan, written upon this First Day of May, the Feast of Our Lady.
==
In 1994: Linda Anfuso
In the Current Middle Ages: Megan ni Laine de Belle Rive
In the SCA, Inc: sustaining member # 33644

YYY YYY
meg@tinhat.stonemarche.org | YYYYY |
|____n____|

From: gray@ibis.cs.umass.edu (Lyle Gray)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Begging in SCA
Date: 27 Sep 1994 14:51:29 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Univ. of Mass., Amherst, MA

At Pennsic XIII, I remember leaving the Great Court to go check on my tent (it
was raining heavily, nothing unusual). There was drumming up on Tuchux hill,
the tents were partly obscured so you couldn't tell which were modern and
which weren't. As I headed down the hill, I noticed that there was someone
sitting at the side of the road. As I came up to him, there was a flash of
lightning, and I could see that he was holding up a wooden bowl, which
was now full of rainwater. As he did so, he said, in a feeble voice, "Alms
for the poor?"

It completed the illusion for me, I'll tell you! It was quite satisfying to
listen to the coins splash into his bowl...

-- Lyle FitzWilliam
------------------------------------------------------ NON ANIMAM CONTINE
Lyle H. Gray Internet (personal): gray@cs.umass.edu
Quodata Corporation Phone: (203) 728-6777, FAX: (203) 247-0249

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ddfr@quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Authenticity Debates
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 1994 17:10:52 GMT

One small point on the "should one's activities be limited to what
one's persona would have done" thread. Cariadoc is from the Maghreb,
but he currently lives in the Middle Kingdom, a predominantly
Frankish land of vague geographical location. So the relevant
question is not what Cariadoc would have done at home but what he
would have done as a long term visitor in a foreign land. To answer
that, one should look at accounts by such visitors--the travels of
Ibn Battuta, for example.

I think we may have a tendency to overestimate the rigidity of people
in the past. Someone from a culture where X was not done, or where he
would not do X, who has moved to a society where people like him
routinely do do X, might well modify his behavior accordingly. He
might still regard X as a somewhat odd thing for respectable people
like him to be doing.

Example 1: There is a period anecdote about a crusader discovering,
and imitating, the middle-eastern practice of shaving off the pubic
hair.

Example 2: Usamah ibn Munqidh comments that the first generation
Franks in Outremer, the one who had come from Frangistan, were
uncivilized barbarians, but their children were a great improvement.
In that case, of course, it took a generation to adapt--but then,
they were Franks.

Note also that a traveler, unless he has a large entourage, is likely
to do things for himself that he would have had done for him back
home.

David/Cariadoc

From: salley@niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Transvestite Personas
Date: 7 Feb 95 23:51:13 GMT
Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208

Steffan ap Cennydd (Steven H Mesnick) writes:
> There are also, in the East, Mistress Giceline de Molay, who used to do a
> great Templar as Gicelin (no "e"). There is also Lord Uilliam Twit of
> Witlow, who is a woman whose persona is that of a male fool who dresses in
> drag (parse *that* one!).

At the Rhydderich Hael's most recent Masked Ball this past December 3rd, the
theme was "Kings and Queens" The prize for Best Female Garb was won by
_Lord_ Kent Weed as Queen Anne. The garb and persona were so perfect,
that our local stud-muffin tried to pick him up and has been trying to live
it down ever since. ;-) I was herald for court and was under orders to call
him up for his award as Queen Anne. Their excellencies spoke to 'her' as
'my lady'. When I read the scroll and read his name, he took off his tiara
and wig and you could hear jaws dropping all over the hall!

- Dagonell

SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr
Habitat : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, Rhydderich Hael Barony
Internet : salley@cs.canisius.edu (Please use this, reply may not work.)
USnail-net : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029

From: afn03234@freenet.ufl.edu (Ronald L. Charlotte)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Persona development (long)
Date: 1 Jul 1995 17:25:12 GMT

I've seen a number of requests from people new to the Society concerning
personas, and how to go about figuring one out.

Developing an in-depth persona is not a requirement of the SCA.

In fact, there are any number of Society members who dislike the
practice of "creating a persona". I rather like the idea, as it gives
me a "hook" and a focus upon which to concentrate, and keep myself from
wandering too far afield when I'm trying to research specific things.

Researching all the aspects of a persona can lead you to the information
you need to outfit your persona; such as garb, jewelry (or lack of it),
hats, shoes, etc. Each fact you uncover will help lead you into a
better understanding of the era you've chosen to concentrate on.

The list of questions that follows was originally given to me by
Baroness Natalija Stoianova (it may have even originated on the Rialto).
I've since tweaked it and added and removed questions with the help of a
few other friends. I know darned few people, myself included, that can
go through this thing 100%, but I'm having fun trying.

Don't be intimidated by the question list (when it was given to me, I'd
been in for over a decade, and the depth and width of the gaps in my
knowlege startled me). Just run through the easy ones first...
+++++++++++++++++++++++

"Can you answer questions that the village idiot would know the answers
to?" The more you know about the day to day details of your life, the
easier staying in persona becomes. Think of it as a challange to learn
everything about your alter-ego.

1. What is your name?
How did you get your name?
Is there an English translation or equivalent?

2. When are you from?
What year is it?
When where you born?
How do you tell time?
When does the day start (dawn, midnight, etc.)?

3. What are your parents' names?
Are your parents alive?
Do you have any brothers and sisters?
How many brothers and sisters died in infancy?
Into what social class were you born?
What is the structure of the family/clan/tribe?
Are the children raised at home or fostered elsewhere?

4. With whom do you live?
Are you married?
What are the marriage customs of your people?
Are there people in your household who are not related to you?

5. Where do you live?
Name the country or province you live in.
Are you from a city, a village, a manor, a farm, etc.?
What kind of building do you live in?
How far is it to the capitol city? (in miles or units of measure
your persona would have used) Have you ever been there?

6. What is your station in life?
Are you a noble, a peasant, or other?
Are you wealthy or poor?
Is your station in life likely to change?

7. How do you support your lifestyle?
If a member of the gentry - where does your money come from?
Monopolies on certain trade? Which ones, and how did your family
obtain them?
Do you have an occupation? Do you work a trade?
Do you belong to a Guild?
What is your Guild rank? (and does your work merit this rank)
Would you have been required to be a guild member to practice
your trade?
What are your daily responsibilities?
How do you get paid?

8. What is the basic unit of money?
How much does a loaf of bread cost?
If you own one, how much is a riding horse?
How much did your home cost?

9. Do you have servants?
How much do they get paid? (and if not money, what do they get)
What are their jobs?
What are their living arrangements? (do they live in, are they
serfs, etc.)

10. How do you keep clean?
How often do you bathe?
What preparations must be made for your bath?

11. What do you wear?
How do you obtain or make your clothing?
Is what you have on your everyday garb?
How does it differ from your other garb?
Do you wear underwear? What kind?
How do you care for your clothes?
Do you have many clothes?
Are there laws regarding what you wear? What are they? Were
they commonly followed? How would you have gotten around the
law?

12. What do you eat?
What is your typical daily menu?
Does your menu change during the year?
How and where do you get what you eat?
How is your food cooked and preserved?
How is it served (table manners and dining customs)?
Are there religious restrictions on your diet?
What spices do you use (consistant with your means)? Are they
imported?
What is your favorite drink? Is it imported? Can your persona
afford it in the quantities you drink at an event? How much
does the drink cost versus your income?

13. What would you be doing on an average day? Assume that your
country is at peace and you are at home. If you are a military
man, describe what you would be doing at your garrison or
military "base".

14. What do you do for fun?
What entertainment is available to you?
Do you provide entertainment for others? How?

15. Are you literate?
How were you educated? (taught at home, church, school, etc.)
What language(s) do you speak?
Did you go to school? What subjects did you study?
How did you learn to do your work?
Who taught you?

16. What is your religion?
Who is the current pope? (non-Christians would also know this)
If you are Christian, and there is more than one Pope, which one
do you support?
Do your people believe in magic? What kind? Is it lawful?
What kinds of things are lucky or unlucky?

17. Who is your overlord? (His title, name of the estate/castle, and
your duties to him)
Who is your ultimate ruler? Is he/she popular with the class
that you are a member of?
Who rules the neighboring peoples?
Who are the enemies/rivals of your people?

18. What wars have there been in your lifetime where you have lived?
How did they affect you? (lost your land, starved for a while,
etc.)
Did your country win or lose? How did this affect your family?
Do you personally fight? Under what circumstances?
What armor is worn and what weapons are used in your time and
place? (answer this even if you do not fight)
How do people of your time and place get weapons and armor?

19. What kind of medical care is available to you?
Who provides your medical care?
Do you provide medical care for others?
What kind of diseases have you had? What was the method of
treatment?

20. What kind of legal system do you have?
Who makes the laws?
What happens to those who break them?
How does this affect you?
What is the status of women among your people? Can they own land
or property? What trades can they enter?

21. What are the most distant lands you know of?
Have you traveled? Where?
What were the circumstances of your travel? (merchant, soldier
pilgrim, nomad, sailor, explorer, etc.)

22. Who are the heros (contemporary, historical, or legendary) of
your people?
What stories do your people tell?
What "Mythical" creatures do you believe in?

23. How many generations of your family would your persona really
have been aware of? (most 20th century people cannot bet back
farther than 3 generations)

24. Have any events had a profound effect on your life? (This is your
chance to dazzle 'em with dates)

Have fun...
--
al Thaalibi -- An Crosaire, Trimaris
Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL
afn03234@freenet.ufl.edu

From: Chris Zakes / Tivar Moondragon <102435.2644@CompuServe.COM>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: developing a persona things to look for
Date: 1 Jul 1995 02:31:38 GMT

On developing a persona:
First, know your local politics--who is your local lord,
what is the state of feudalism at this time, and how political
life is organised. For instance, in 1342 England, feudalism is
well advanced, and my local lord, if in a town, would be the
mayor or the baron of the area. I serve my lord husband, and he,
depending on his profession, serves the baron.

Second, what is your position in this time period? Are
you the wife of a minor noble (you run his household), or are you
a merchant of good standing (your opinions in the town council
are fairly respected), or are you a minor journeyman (most people
treat you as less than their equal).

Third, what do you eat, what do you use for money, what
do you wear, what does your local area produce, etc.? Cookbooks
are great for the first of these, and historical letters are good
for the rest. England is a great sheep/wool producer. You would
likely be involved in some aspect of sheeps and wool if you are
in the least agricultural.

Fourth, it would be a good idea to know your ultimate
ruler (King of England, Holy Roman Emperor, or what?). How he ran
his court and entourage is a good model for how you would behave.
Also, what clothes you wear dictate how you curtsey/bow. A
corseted woman CANNOT bend at the waist--her upper body must
remain upright. A man in chain wouldn't bend over too much for
fear of overbalancing!

--Aethelyan of Moondragon 102435,2644

From: brettwi@ix.netcom.com (Brett Williams )
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Being in Persona
Date: 28 Aug 1995 21:33:45 GMT

"Brett W. McCoy" <p01335@psilink.com> writes:
>>FROM: Barbara H. Webb <bhw@aisb.ed.ac.uk>
>>
>>While on the topic I was interested by Cariadoc's post suggesting that
>>being non-modern though non-historic in persona (like the Tuchux) may be
>>preferrable to doing something historic, such as wearing 16th century garb,
>>while behaving as your modern self. I'm not sure I agree, but I would be
>>very interested to hear what others think on this point.
>
>I myself would rather see people being more in persona than just
>wearing the garb. The garb, of course, does lend itself to the Magic
>of an event, but this can quickly be shattered by someone walking in
>the middle of a conversation with "Yo, Jim! Did you see the bug list
>for the new Linux Shell I stuck in such-and-such archive?"

Yes, indeed, most jarring to hear such a thing. I also find jarring
the phrase: "My persona is a 16th Century Scotswoman..."

A personal pet peeve, perhaps. Would it not be better said: "I am a
Scotswoman, and the monarch of Scotland is wrongfully imprisoned by
That Woman who rules the realm south of these lands. I have fled to
the land of Caid as the nobles ruling our land in the name of her son
have named my family and clan anaethema to their interests..."

I'm using myself as an example.

>But complaining about it isn't going to fix things, certainly. We
>should respond to such things with appropriate courtesy and provide an
>example of being 'in period' persona-wise: "Forsooth, good sir, your
>language is strange to me and I know not of what you speak. Pray,
>come join us for a bit of drink and good company...." and so on.
>
>I have started doing monthly Period Nights in my shire, where we get
>together for a small private revel, with a potluck feast and a Bardic
>circle. Appropriate garb is required, and the 20th century is left
>behind, not unlike the Enchanted Ground at Pennsic. This gives people

>the opportunity to practice at being in persona without being
>embarassed or self-conscious. It is also a good introduction to
>newcomers as to How We Play.
>
>Istvan Dragosani
>bmccoy@capaccess.org

Oh, hear, hear! One of the most vivid memories of my early years of
the Society was attending a Kingdom-level event in Caid where his
Grace, Duke Cariadoc, was present as he lived in Caid at that time. I
play a fretted dulcimer, and when his Grace asked me what my instrument
was, I was dumbfounded as to what to say to The Real Thing, an Arab
noble. I stammered something to the effect that my instrument was a
modern form of a period instrument, and didn't fail to note the
fleeting expression of disappointment that flashed across his face as I
'lost character' and spoiled the encounter for him.

We do not have customary behaviors firmly in place that enable us to
'step in' to our medieval selves and leave mundanity behind.

My encounter with Duke Cariadoc was more than ten years ago and I
remember it vividly since it made such an impact on my thought
concerning my own participation in the Society. Your Grace, if you
read this message, the answer to your question should have been: "The
local artisan who made my instrument modeled it after Phythagoras'
monochord, but chose to shape the soundbox after his own fashioning."

ciorstan macAmhlaidh, CHA, AoA

From: IVANOR@delphi.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: De-saturation (was Being in Persona)
Date: 4 Sep 1995 01:04:02 GMT

Quoting afn03234 from a message in rec.org.sca
>My Lady and friends swear that once I'm dressed, I even walk
>differently. All I know is that after spending a Friday evening

I know how that is. I have two personas, and a friend who swears that they
are not only dissimilar in general appearance, they aren't even the same
size! (Ivanor is much daintier of build than Sesi.)

I have another friend whose persona doesn't like the same kinds of music he
does, AND VICE VERSA.

Maybe this really is a form of group, guided, multiple personality disorder?

Carolyn Boselli, Host of Custom Forum 35, SCAdians on Delphi

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ederd@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Dani Eder)
Subject: Re: help with persona development
Organization: The Boeing Company
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 19:33:52 GMT

mharri6736@aol.com (MHarri6736) writes:
>some kind gentleman several months ago gave me a great list of things to
>consider in deeloping a persona. i have misplaced this. several people
>have asked me for advise on books and things to consider for persona
>development. i wonder if someone out there could give me advise to pass
>along to some of the other students who don't have a computer access

A number of years ago I was introduced to an SCA persona game called
"The Inquisition". The point of the game was both to be fun and to
stimulate thought and research on a persona. This is from memory,
perhaps others can suggest additional questions:

The rules:

The game is played by a number of players and a set of 'Inquisitors'.
In a small group the Inquisitors may simply be the other players.
The players are asked a series of questions by the inquisitors, which
they must answer correctly for their persona. This means in some
cases not knowing the answer. Questions are graded on a point
scale according to difficulty. If a player answers correctly, they
get the number of points associated with the question. If they
answer incorrectly they get 'tortured', which involves rolling a
six-sided die. On the first torture they must roll more than a one,
on the second torture they must roll greater than a two, etc. If
they succeed, they have survived the torture and can continue to
play. If they fail, they have 'died' from the torture, and are
out of the game. The last player alive, or the one who dies with
the most points wins. The inquisitors decide the correctness of the
answers by consensus. Bluffing is allowed (i.e. faking an answer
and hoping the inquisitors don't know the correct answer). Players
are asked questions in rotation, and they start a turn by deciding
what difficulty question they will attempt next. For fun, you can
make a list of tortures and play-act being tortured.

The questions (point value)

What is your name? (1)
What was your father's name (2)
What was your mother's name (2)
What does your name mean (3)
How many brothers and sisters do you have (3)
What are their names (4)

What kingdom do you live in (or equivalent) (1)
What city or town do you live in/near (2)
Who is the king/head of state (2)
Who is your immediate liege lord (4)
If in a city/town, what street do you live on (4)

What do you do? (1)
Where is your usual place of work (2)
How old were you when you started to work (3)

What year is it (1)
What calendar date is it (3)
How long has the king been on the throne (4)
How old are you (1)
On what day were you born? (3)
What time is it (4)

What is your principal grain (3)
What is your principal meat (2)
What is your principal drink (1)

How many sets of clothes do you own (2)
How often do you get new clothes (3)

Where do you sleep (2)
With whom do you sleep (3)
On/in what do you sleep (furnishings) (3)
What do you wear when you sleep (4)

How do you relieve yourself (3)
How do you bathe (4)
How often do you bathe (3)

What language do you speak (1)
What other languages do you speak (2)
Can you read (2)
In what language do you read (3)
How many books do you own (4)
Name your favorite book (4)
Name another book you have read (5)

----------
If you think about it, anyone should be able to answer most of
these questions about themselves quite easily. If the other good
gentles on the Rialto would like to contribute questions, I will
collate them and repost. If you think my point values are off,
let me know (the scale is supposed to be 1=very easy to 5=very hard).

Daniel of Raven's Nest

From: fghtrchick@aol.com (Fghtrchick)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Chronologically Challenged Couples
Date: 21 Jan 1996 12:48:02 -0500

Katherine,
My persona was made with one thought in mind---I never wanted to be
"with" anyone permanently in the SCA (my mundane marriage, at the time,
didn't incline me to ever want to experience ANY permanence again).
Consequently, I had her set up to be the widowed, childless, penniless,
pretty-much forgotten younger sister of a French-Norman knight in the
Scottish Lowlands. (and thereby, completely unmarriageable, but not
necessarily, virginal) Wel-l-l-l, the best-laid plans...

I will be married to an extremely early period Celt twice--once in
May at our clan's Beltain celebration, and once, legally, in church(?), at
the end of September. So, how does a nice 12th Century girl explain that
strangely-dressed 6th Century man hanging about? I have to say, I pretty
much don't worry about it, but I guess I could say he's my eccentric
huntsman. And if (when) he becomes king, I'll just time travel back and
be 6th Century for a while, after all, if he worked that hard and actually
became king, it would be unfair to make him change periods. This may not
be exactly what you wanted, but it is how we deal with our
"chronilogically-challenged" relationship.

Lady Alys de Clermont
Ancient Ring Tribe and Alliance
College of Dragon's Crossing

From: jkrissw@aol.com (JkrissW)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Chronologically Challenged Couples
Date: 22 Jan 1996 06:08:06 -0500

The answer is simple: Although you are both from a particular time and
place of your own choosing, you met and married in one of the Laurel
Kingdoms. How people from what seems to you like a completely different
land and era than your own came to be here at the same time as you is a
mystery beyond your understanding.

Kriss White

(Daveed of Granada ended up in Caid after the Mother of All Sandstorms hit
his Sahara caravan, and has been living in the wonderously tolerant land
of the Laurel Kingdoms ever since, where nobody expects one to dress in
the local fashion because everybody came from somewhere else and brought
their clothing styles with them.)

From: brianw@gate.net (Brian Wilkins)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Chronologically Challenged Couples
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 10:51:32 GMT
Organization: CyberGate, Inc.

>So what do you do persona-wise if your partner is a couple of hundred years
>away from you? Disown them? Provide some sort of explanation as to why
>you're hanging around with someone even though they don't belong in your
>timeframe? What?

What do do? Nothing. Ignore the whole deal.

In a club where 6th century Celts share the battlefield with Italian
Condotierre, or where a 14th century Scot can debat the writings of
Aquinas and Bede with a 17th century French cavalier the time period of
our personnas has no binding meaning that we do not individually wish to
impose on ourselves.

If you and you're husband are having fun by trying to reconcile your
differences then go ahead, but there is nothing in the nature of the SCA
that forces changes on you.

A worse problem would be to construct what my friends and I smilingly
call "iceberg personnas". They sound something like this:
My father was frozen in an iceberg and floated to Japan, which
explains my martial arts training, then I escaped to the mainland
by signing on a merchant ship to China, which explains my knowledge of
sailing, and after wandering for a few years I got a job as a cook in
the kitchens of the Emporer, which explains my knowledge of Gourmet
Cooking. Then I met Marco Polo, and he hired me as a guard, and one of
the other guards taught me archery, and I eventually returned to Italy
with him where I worked was a guard to a physician, which explains my
medical (EMT) training. Then, the physician got me a job with an
armorer, which expalins my armoring skill. Eventually I made enough
money to form my own condotierri company, and was engaged to the
daughter of the Duke of Milan, which explains my court barony......
ad nauseum.

This is obviously an artificial construct which exaggerates to make a
point (or rather it SHOULD be, I've heard worse than this from people
who meant it, but that's another story) but the you get the idea.

You have very little to gain by making artificial constructs to justify
discrepancies between your person and your personna. Your personna is not
yourself, and your personna story is not a resume of the things you have
done, nor is it a portrait of the relationships you have with other
people in the SCA.

If you are looking for ways to counter the "accusations" that are being
humorously (I assume it was humorous, your post makes it seem so)
directed towards your personna there are better ways than to compromise
the historical integrity of "her" story.

All of our personnas are both a tool for historical research, an a story
that we share with others, and both of these endeavors are given short
shrift when we devise artificial constructs to suit other, less
appropriate, ends.

Brian Wilkins
SCA: Braian MacNaughton

From: mellitus7@aol.com (Mellitus7)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Religous Personas (was: I thought the SCA ...)
Date: 7 Jun 1996 18:28:02 -0400

Personally, I have no qualms about an individual assuming a religous
persona, provided that a couple of criteria are met. These being (and
fairly common sensical) that the individual in question make no
pretentions that he or she really is something that he or she is not <like
a Priest-persona taking confessions> or that the individual in question
soes not violate Corpora and Govening Policy with the actions of the
persona.

I think most people's initial response is negative because they a) believe
that the individual with the religous persona is really what the garb
proclaims that one to be or b) believe that the imitation tarnishes the
reputation of hte original and/or the SCA. However, the persona is tool
by which we research our periods and interests, and if a person's
period/interests lie in the clerical aspect of the period, then a religous
persona makes sense.

In the two cases of religous persona research I am aware of, both made
some people (myself included) uncomfortable at first. Then as I came to
know these gentles, I understand that they were just SCA folk with
different garb. Neither made any pretentions of really "being" a nun.
Another tack would be to adopt a persona of noble birth affiliated (but
not avowed) to a religous order. There were many lay bretheren and
sisters who lived and worked alongside the professed religous. They wore
virtually the same clothing and did the same the things as those under
vows.

Mellitus

From: zarlor@acm.org (Lenny Zimmermann)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Fun vs Authenticity/My hubby's OOP for me!!
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 21:35:28 GMT

kimiv@ix.netcom.com(Kimberly A. Ingram) wrote:
> In this thread there has been debate as to which is the greater
>sin, a completely OOP object or one that is within the Society's scope,
>but out OOP for an individuals persona. I have a dilema that runs
>along these lines.
[snip]
> We are a
>couple in reality, but in persona I'm dust long before his time.
>Should we not act like a married couple when in persona? Would it
>adversely effect peoples ability to suspend reality should we ever sit
>a throne togeather? Should we each have an alternate persona to match
>that of our mate and take turns?
> What are others experiences in coping with this phenomenon? Up to
>this point I've preety much just ignored this wrinkle and I'm
>interested in other solutions and/or rationalization.

My wife and I have a similar situation, but less extreme. My persona
is 1530's Northern Italian, while her's is 1590's Elizabethan English.
I had long considered that my persona was in the "Knowne World" and
somehow no longer in the lands that he once knew in Europe, but Don
Giovanni (aka "Dr. Bill") from the East (I believe) Kingdom helped to
clarify my initial impressions better.

He mentioned a book written by one of my persona's contemporaries..
"Orlando Furioso" by Ludovico Ariosto. This is a period form of story
called a "travelers's tale", effectively similar to what we would call
a novel in the style of the "fantasy" genre. How else would a person
from the 16th century be meeting those "barbarian" vikings and ancient
romans long dead, unless s/he were at a costume party or no longer in
the world s/he once knew.

I explain it as leaving Italy, for reasons not relevant to this
thread, and heading off for the New World, only to be caught in a
storm and end-up in the Knowne World. I met my wife here, not in
Europe. Many things are strange to my persona, but at least they are
explainable this way. And I use the motivations of wanting to surround
"myself" with things from my time and place that would help my persona
to feel more comfortable to give me more reason to keep authentic to
the time I am studying instead of trying to mish-mash other times and
places into the scenario directly surrounding Lionardo.

This helps me to feel more in character without having to resort to
some other fantasy that I would personally find more difficult to
accept. Such as "killing" someone on the list field, instead of
looking at it as a tournament with bated blades where we fall down and
"die" for showmanship and the edification of the nobles present. That
way I can "kill" my friends and still have those friends later. ;-)

I could say more on how other such situations fit into this mindset
but I think you can get the idea. This is a method I find I can use to
help make things more understandable in the context of what my persona
might see. Perhaps that could work for you as well, especially if you
can find any stories in your persona's time period that would help
substantiate your viewpoint.

I wish you the best of luck in deciding how you wish to reconcile
these differences for your persona!

Honos Servio,
Lionardo Acquistapace, Barony of Bjornsborg, Ansteorra
(mka Lenny Zimmermann, San Antonio, TX)
zarlor@acm.org

<the end>