names-msg - 3/23/00

Name sources, naming practices.

NOTE: See also the files: names-Irish-msg, names-Norse-msg, names-Scot-art, names-Scot-msg, Scot-fem-nam-lst, names-FAQ.

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From: joshua at paul.rutgers.edu (Josh Mittleman)
Date: 1 Nov 91 16:48:58 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

Greetings from Arval!

The gentle from Dragon's Mists asked:

>   How does one go about finding a name for oneself?  
>   Does any one have a good source book they might recommend?
>   Are there certain rules about choosing one's name?

I think of the process of choosing one's SCA name as a good introduction to
the SCA.  It is a small, easily-defined, and well-limited rsearch project.
You get to do some research, learn something about medieval culture, and
then use the results of your work.  This, I think, is the whole purpose of
the SCA.

The best approach is to pick some medieval source, and find a given name
used in it that you like.  The most fun is to start with period literature
- Chaucer, Boccaccio, the sagas,Joinville's Chroincles of the Crusades,
etc.  Be careful if you are reading mythology like the Eddas, the
Mabinogion, etc., since many of the characters in those works are deities
or allegoric figures, and their names were not used by normal people in the
Middle Ages.  In general, try to pick a given name that was used by a real
person in some part of Europe between 600 and 1600.

If you can't find a period work on the time and area that interests you,
you can turn to history books or dictionaries of names.  History is good,
since it will date the use of the name.  However, many historians anglicize
and modernize names, so you can't always be sure that the form of the name
is one that existed in the Middle Ages.  If you use name dictionaries, be
very careful, since most name dictionaries do not indicate which names date
to the Middle AGes and which are modern.  A good reference for British
names is E. G. Withycombe, The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian
Names.  She gives dated citations of names.  That's what you should look
for: dated references.  If a book doesn't give dated citations, then it is
useless for SCA purposes.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the modern usage of a name is not
necessarily the medieval usage.  Modern English, particularly in the USA,
accepts virtually anything as a name.  That wasn't typically true in
medieval Europe.  for the most part, the name stock was small and changed
very slowly.  Don't make up a name; you will almost certainly end up with
something that is highly unlikely to have been used in period.  Some
examples: The use of surnames as given names is a development of the late
17th and 18th centuries.  Craig, Bruce, Howard, Norman, and many other
common modern names were only used as surnames in period.  The use of
the names of flowers, herbs, and gemstones as girls' names is a modern
development, with a few exceptions.  The basic idea is this: Just like
anything else, naming practices have change a lot in the past 1000 years,
and one's modern assumptions about what is a medieval given name are just
as likely to be wrong as one's modern assumptions about what is a medieval
beer, fabric, paint, etc.  Best to start off on the right track by choosing
something that is definitely medieval.

Eventually, you'll want to add a surname or byname to your given name, but
you don't need to rush that.  Eventually, you'll probably want to register
your name with the College of Arms, to ensure its uniqueness, but you don't
need to rush that, either.  The given name is the important part.

        Arval.


From: djheydt at garnet.berkeley.edu
Date: 10 May 91 01:51:54 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

In article <9105090014.AA07566 at euler.ucsd.edu.UCSD.EDU> sbloch at euler.ucsd.EDU (Steve Bloch) writes:
>....  Even if you don't do so yourselves, other people
>will start saying "not Hrafnkel Bjornsson the smith, but Hrafnkel
>Bjornsson the bard" ....

In Wales, up to recent times and maybe still, they would get around
similarity of names* by appending the name of the person's trade, as
"Jones the grocer, Jones the smith".  Sometimes instead of using the
descriptive noun for the person, they'd use a noun for the person's
place of business or chief distinguishing tool, as "Jones the mill"
(instead of "Jones the miller"), "Jones the train" (instead of "Jones
the engineer").  Which led to the following remark, along about the
time photographer Anthony Armstrong-Jones, who had married Princess
Margaret Rose, was ennobled as the Earl of Snowdon:

        "You know Jones the Camera, who became Jones the
        Palace?  Now he's Jones the Mountain."
_______
*In the sixteenth century or thereabouts, the Welsh were obliged
by the English to use family names instead of patronymics.  Mostly
they adapted the patronymics, either by eliding "ap Huw" to "Pugh",
"ap Richart" to "Prichart", etc., or by adding an English possessive
"-s" to the name, e.g. Jones, Williams, Roberts, Richards...  This
tended to confuse the English, both because brothers and cousins
could easily have different surnames, and because the total number
of surnames was small.  This didn't upset the Welsh any; and indeed
many a man took the name Jones even if his father's name hadn't
been John; and to say "a Jones" was equivalent to saying "a rebel."
Which led to another joke:

        There was a census taker who went to a little Welsh
        village with instructions to get the name of the head
        of each household, and he went up one street and down
        the next and at each house he was told the name of the
        householder was John Jones.  Up and down the little
        streets he went, and finally, three-quarters through
        the village, he said in disgust, "I give up; every man
        in this village is named John Jones!" and went home.
        But he was wrong, because at the end of the last street
        there lived a man named William Williams.

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin                Dorothy J. Heydt
                                           (that's Jones)
Province of the Mists                   djheydt at garnet.berkeley.edu
Principality of the Mists               University of California,
Kingdom of the West                     Berkeley


Date: 25 Jan 92 
From: pvisel at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Patrick E Visel)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: The Ohio State University

Gentles of the Rialto

  I have been reluctant to intrude upon so noble a gathering,
but I feel the time has come to address you that I may contribute
in some small way, to these discussions.  I am called Hasan ibn 
'Abd al-Hakim al-Dimashqi, lately crossed this Middle Sea and 
resident on these shores till the next sailing season.
   I follow the Sufi path and search for knowledge.  Indeed I have
found here on this bridge a place where all the sons and daughters
 of Adam tread (and a very sturdy bridge it is).  For has not the
Prophet (peace be upon him) said "Search for knowledge, even unto
China" (much too far for these feet or this purse to travel)
   And so that I may bring light where there is darkness and
clarity where there is confusion (or vice versa :))
(I fear that this may run on so some may wish to part now, I hope
 though we may meet again):
   In regard to Arabic/Islamic names: It is important to remember
that they are essentially descriptive and much more fluid than
your Frankish names and indeed the name by which I am called often
depends with whom I am talking.  A name (kunya) is given at birth
and usually falls into one of three types; a name of a righteous
person mentioned in the Qur'an; -- Ibrahim, Musa, Is.haq (not
 Ish.aq), Isma'il, 'Isa (Peace be upon them); a common Arabic 
name - Hasan, Muhammad,  Ahmad, Jamal, Fatimah; or a name showing 
our relationship with he who is exalted - 'Abd...  The first form 
is familiar to Christians and Jews but in an Arabic tongue. The
second type are all nouns or adjectives in Arabic and have themselves
meanings (a fact when compounded by the lack of capital letters in
Arabic script has caused generations of students of Arabic prose 
to pull out their hair and beat their breasts).  The third type was
mentioned by my brother 'Abd al-Rahman, but I am inclined to believe
 he oversimplified it in his learned discourse. 
    
   It is true that 'Abd has a sense of slave (literally possession)
but it is almost never used as a term for an individual.  Since the
 earliest time it has been used for man's relationship to Allah or
 pagan gods.  Indeed in the Book of the prophet Daniel, the Aramaic
shows that the third of the three sent into the furnace with Shadrack,
and Meshak was 'Abd aNego.  Who this refers to preceisely is now
known only to God but pre-Islamic arabs used the form 'Abd Allah
and pagan arabs used 'Abd al-Manat and 'Abd al-Uzza.  In these 
present Midlle Ages the form is used almost solelyin such as 'Abd
Allah or 'Abd+ one of the 99 beautiful names of God- 'Abd al-Rahman-
(servant of the Merciful) or 'Abd al-Hakim (slave of the wise, if
you prefer) (anyone interested in these names can e-mail me). 
Sometimes the extremists among the sectarians (shiites) use the name
 'Abd 'Ali but this is rare and blasphemous.
     Further description is then created by use of the nisba (lineage)
 built up by use of ibn (or bin) son of or bint- daughter of.  Thus
 I am Hasan ibn 'Abd al-Hakim ibn Ahmad etc. as much as may be needed
 to identify me.  One of the satirists described a pompous man by
 having him trace his lineage ten generation every time he introduced
 himself.
    The last identifier is either a local or a tribal name or an
 occupation.  Thus I am al-Dimashqi (the Damascene) or al-Shamsi
 (the Levantine), or al-Talib (the student) or al-Mujallid (the binder-
 I am yet just a dabbler).  Since being called al-Dimashqi is incredibly
 useless in al-Dimashq, there I would be more likely known by my lineage
 or occupation.

     And if I have not already bored everyone here to tears, I will add
 that honorifics are often used as names. Thus Salah al-Din (Saladin)
 of the late unpleasantness (or alternatively barbarian invasions :))
 is in fact an honorific Pious of Faith, as are most of the names ending
 in Din or Dawlah. On a less sublime level it is customay to add or
 change ones name after one sires or bears a child.  Thus when I sire a
 child, say Ahmad, I would take the name Abu Ahmad -father of Ahmad, and
 my wife could take the name Umm Ahmad (or more often her daughters) 
 name.  There are exceptions to this rule however, Abu Bakr the first
 Caliph was named father of the Camel (Bakr) due to his wealth but now
 his name is often given as a kunya.

   Again I beg forgiveness for the length of this discourse but anything
 less would have been misleading I fear. 
                                          Your Servant
                                        Hasan 'Abd al-Hakim al-Dimashqi 

Re: Arabic names
Date: 1 Feb 92 
From: pvisel at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Patrick E Visel)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: The Ohio State University

In article <1992Feb1.002913.176 at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> pvisel at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Patrick E Visel) writes:

To the gentles of the Rialto Hasan al-Dimashqi sends greetings and Salam.
    Always willing to spread the wonders and curiousities of the noble
Arabic tongue, I will attempt to answer Fujimoto's question

>>To the discussion on Arabic names:
>>
>>I have a further question:  sometimes I see the term "ar" show up in
>>a name, viz: Abu Bakr Mohamet ibn Zakariyya ar Razi (the scientist we
>>know as Rhazes, the discoverer of antimony and plaster of Paris).   
>>Could you explain the "ar"?  
>>
>>Fujimoto

   (I tried to answer this earlier, but I fear the Jinn took my voice)
    Arabic speech tends to flow together more like french than english.
Certain combinations of sounds are thought awkward, or unseemly, and so
the leading consonant is assimilated to the following consonant.  This 
is most evident in words with the definite article "al-" (the).  Before
"r", "t", "th", "sh", "s", "d" , "n" and "z" the "l" (lam) of "al-"
assimilated to the following letter, thus al-Razi is spelled "alif lam"
but is pronounced ar-Razi and Salah al-Din (Saladin) is pronounced
Salah ad-Din.
   I hope this clears up the issue.  Arabic letters and sounds are
somewhat different from english, french, or latin letters. "Th" is two
letters "th" as in "think" and "Th" as in "This" sometimes rendered
"th" and "dh" and "sh" is a single letter. This means the same word
can be rendered into roman script in many different ways. (consider
how many spellings of Khaddafi there has been in the newspapers).
The "Rh" of Rhazes is (I think) an attempt to reproduce the Arabic
trilled "r".
   To all those who welcomed me so graciously to the Rialto after my
last post, my heartfelt thanks.

                                        Your Servant
                                        Hasan 'Abd al-Hakim al-Dimashqi
*************************************************************
* Hasan al-Dimashqi   *  Patrick Visel                      *
* Tirnewydd           *  Ohio State University              *
* Middle Marches      *  Middle East Studies Library        *
*                     * pvisel at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu    *
*************************************************************


Date: 12 Jun 92 
From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

               My Name

Keradwc an Cai asks about the Arabic version of my name. It is
explained, with an entertaining in persona story (not by me), in T.I.
46 p. 32. 

Jessica asks "is there a certain way your name is usually pronounced
by the people (including you) who say it most often?"

My lady wife says that I pronounce it Ka Ree A Dok (Cary a
doc--accent on the last syllable). I also respond to Cuh Riya Doc and
Cary Adok (with the accent on the third syllable).

Cariadoc/David


From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Source needed...
Date: 24 Nov 1993 03:40:29 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

In article <2cu5kg$5lp at epas.utoronto.ca>,
Susan Clark <sclark at epas.utoronto.ca> wrote:
>Greetings....
>	I am told that there is an onomastic source on Russian names
>written by someone in the SCA.  As I have yet to find anything
>
>Cheers!
>Nicolaa/Susan

You may be thinking of "The Compleat Russian Name Book" translated/compiled
by Tatiana Nikolaevna Tumanova (B.J. Gerth). It may be ordered from the
Morsulus Herald, Iulstan Sigwealding (Steven Goldschmidt 877 San Lucas Ave.
Mountain View, CA 94043). If I may be blunt, the book falls in the category
of "better than nothing". It lists "standard modern" forms of names, has
no dates at all, was compiled from books about (relatively) modern practice
and is misleading regarding Russian naming patterns in period (i.e., it
prescribes the "given name/patronymic/surname" formula as the only viable
one). Used in conjunction with the article on period Russian naming
practices by Paul Wickendon of Thanet that appeared in the 1993 Heraldic
Symposium Procedings, it is slightly more useful.

Keridwen f. Morgan Glasfryn 


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle at watson.ibm.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Subject: Re: Source needed...
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1993 20:23:48 GMT
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research

Greetings from Arval! Nahum asked:

> What does "onomastic" mean?

"Onamastics" is the science of naming.  "Onamastic" is an adjectival form
of that word.

> Russian names don't seem to have changed since period.  Some have gone
> out of style, but those were only used by priests anyway.

I do not know much about Russian names per se, Nahum, but I have heard
comments like this about Irish names, Welsh names, Japanese names, etc.,
and they have always turned out to be incorrect.  Do you know that this is
so, or are you speculating?
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord                                   mittle at watson.ibm.com


From: mcs at unlinfo.unl.edu (M Straatmann)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Source needed...
Date: 29 Nov 1993 00:06:45 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska--Lincoln	

mittle at watson.ibm.com (Arval d'Espas Nord) writes:

>Greetings from Arval! Nahum asked:

>> Russian names don't seem to have changed since period.  Some have gone
>> out of style, but those were only used by priests anyway.

>I do not know much about Russian names per se, Nahum, but I have heard
>comments like this about Irish names, Welsh names, Japanese names, etc.,
>and they have always turned out to be incorrect.  Do you know that this is
>so, or are you speculating?
>===========================================================================
>Arval d'Espas Nord                                   mittle at watson.ibm.com

I believe what Nahum is talking about is the patronymic construction, 
which is prevalent in Russian naming.  First names such as Nikolai, 
Alexander, Mikhail, Boris, etc.etc.etc.etc. followed by a patronymic 
such as Nikolaevich, Alexandrovich, Mikhailovich, etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.
This type of naming is still very much used in Russia today. 
What has gone out of style are some of the third names used.  There 
are many that have become familial names in the modern sense, whereas 
they were descriptive or locative in _most_ period usages.  Some 
aren't even used at all (or sound really off the wall in modern 
Russian)  I believe this to be what Nahum is referring to.  If not, I 
hope to hear about it.  
In service, 
misha

Gospodin Mikhail Nikolaevich Kramolnikov, Fyrdman-Calontir


From: Tim at f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Source needed...
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1993 07:27:08

 Scripsit Nicolaa:

 SC>    I am told that there is an onomastic source on Russian names
 SC> written by someone in the SCA.  As I have yet to find anything
 SC> on Russian names that is not in Russian, could anyone tell me about this
 SC> source and how I can get it?  (In hard-copy form, please)...)...or about
 SC> any other sources you can give me in English, French or German about
 SC> Russian naming practices in period?

 The traditional SCA reference for Russian names is *The Compleat Russian
 Name Book" by Viscountess Tatiana Tumanova. The best real source for
 Russian name information that I've found is Unbegaun's *Russian Surnames*.
 There is an excellent article on Russian names in the most recent Known
 World Heraldic Symposium Proceedings, by Paul Wickenden of Thanet. I think
 Tumanova's work is available from either Free Trumpet Press West or the
 stock clerk; you'd have to get Unbegaun through a library, as I doubt that
 it is still in print.

    Tadhg, Hanaper
    ocitor!tim.4229 at rwsys.lonestar.org


From: hqdoegtn/G=Harold/S=Feld/O=HQ at mhs.ATtmail.COM
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: NAmes and new developments
Date: 29 Nov 1993 16:37:21 -0500
Organization: The Internet

          Unto all who read these words, greetings from Yaakov.

          The question has come up about how much names change in
          traditional cultures (I belive the original people under
          discussion were the Rus).

          My researches into Jewish naming practices have showed that
          somethings seem to last forever, with bursts of new things
          entering the naming practices and older things fading away.

          For example: 'x ben/bat y' the most standard form of Jewish
          name people take, has lasted from the times of the Talmud to
          this day (Biblical characters are usually addressed either
          by their full name, or by the patronimic, but rarely both,
          except as a description.  This is from memory, without my
          t'nach in front of me, so specific examples may vary (place
          to find them is probably Divrei Hayamim, whatever that is in
          English. Chronicles I think.)   So while we see "David," and
          "The Son of Jesse" we don't see "David, son of Jesse" in the
          same way that we see in the Talmud "Rabba Bar Bar Chana" or
          in the Middle Ages "Moses ben Maimon")

          Certain names also seem fairly constant: Moses is quite
          common, for example.  (Yaakov is rather rarer.)  Some names
          have dropped out completely (like Kalonomus).  Names changed
          radically when yiddish/german began to be a regular feature
          of ones given name (as opposed to whatever you were called
          outside the Jewish community).  This does not mean that
          Yiddish drove out the Hebrew equivalents.

          In modern Hebrew naming practices, many American Jews chose
          traditional Hebrew names (the preservation of names is
          helped by the custom of naming the child after a deceased
          relative).  Israelis, on the other hand, do whatever they
          want.  (One friend of mine named his daughter "T'chalet."
          Translation=Blue.)

          Which actually brings me to something of a sore point of my
          own in current SCA naming practices, the use of the Bible as
          documentation.  There are a fair number of names that were
          never used in period as names, but are names in the Bible.
          (Onan, Cain, and Edom to name a few off the top of my
          head, that no self-Jewish parent would ever call their
          child.)

          In Service,
          Yaakov


From: goldschm at ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Paul Goldschmidt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Russian Names
Date: 30 Nov 1993 22:36:35 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

I seem to have missed the thread on this subject, but I heard that
my artcuile from the symposium was mentioned and I thought that I
would mention that a revised version of it is being carried by
Folump Enterprises, 805 E Green, Urbana IL  61801.  The cost (I
think) is $5, but you can write for info.

I also have a list of cities and towns in medieval Russia which I
can send to interested parties at cost, and I am working on a list
of Russian medieval saints (good for documenting Christian names).
Meanwhile I have been slaving away on a dictionary of given names
(with around 12K entries so far -- heading to 40k).  I'm even starting
work on a much expanded piece on Russian medieval grammar for 
Onomastics.  

You can reach me at GOLDSCHM at vmd.cso.uiuc.edu (which is not the
address I am writing from).  I'm hardly ever on the Rialto, so don't
try writing me here.

-- Paul Wickenden of Thanet 


From: pwgg7938 at uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Paul W Goldschmidt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Russian Names III
Date: 1 Dec 1993 01:07:07 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

 finally found the thread.

I feel obliged to respond to the person who said that Russian had not
changed that much since 17th century.  I wiowould agree that it has
b  not changed much sinmce 1720, but that is post period.  Older
Russia texts (11-15th century, for example) are usually in Old Church
Slabonic (Slavonic -- I was transliterating) [God, I hate the editor
on this machine!  Anyway....]  The old docs are in OCS which is VERY
different from Modern Russian.  Never mind that some period manuscripts
are written in latin letters (which is VERY painful to read).  As for
the Names....well, they are also very different.  The modern form
(given name-patronymic-surname) exists, but it not common.  Patronymic
grammar was also highly variable (I've documented at least a dozen
different tyoxxxxx   tupes  [arg!!!]  TYPES [!] of patronymics).

If you want to know about this, write me on my OTHER account (the one
with the friedly -- fried.....FRIENDLY!!! editor that does not make me
look so bad :<  :"  :'

goldschm at vmd.cso.uiuc.edu
-- Paul Wickenden of Thanet


From: waltern at thoreau.rand.org (Walter Nelson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Viking resources
Date: 5 Jan 1994 16:34:17 GMT
Organization: RAND Corporation

Angelia Sparrow (asparrow at nyx.cs.du.edu) wrote:
: I am looking for books on Viking naming practices, and Viking women in
: general.  Any recommendations are welcome. =

Don't have a source to recommend, but the formal name of a Norse women
would be her name followed by her patronym, as in Kristen Lavrandsdatter
(i.e.  Kristen, daughter of Lavrand).  They did not take their husband's
last name when they married, since their husbands would have been named
according to the same system (i.e.  Leif Erikson--Leif, son of Erik) and
wouldn't have a surname for her to take.  This system is still followed in
Iceland.

Like men, they might also acquire a nick name which described a physical
attribute (i.e. Svaneshals-Swan Neck) or an achievement.

Cheers

                              Walter Nelson


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle at watson.ibm.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Subject: Re: Viking resources
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 1994 16:40:36 GMT
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research

Greetings from Arval!  AEthelynda wrote:

> I am looking for books on Viking naming practices, and Viking women in
> general.

The best book I know on Viking names is Geirr Bassi Haraldsson, "The Old
Norse Name," (Studia Marklandica).  I believe it is available from a couple
SCA book merchants, but I won't promise.  Many senior heralds' offices own
copies.  There have also been a number of compilations of Viking names
published in the SCA, including one that I did from Njal's Saga and Egil's
Saga.  You can also cut out the middleman and go straight to the Penguin
editions of the sagas.  They have indices of characters, and although the
names are usually translated and/or anglicized, they are a good starting
point. 
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord                                   mittle at watson.ibm.com


From: bloodthorn at sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Jennifer Geard)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Viking resources
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 94 02:15:17 GMT
Organization: Lethargy Inc.

Greetings from Pagan!

AEthelynda asked about viking women's names, and Arval recommended looking
for them in the sagas:

 > They [specifically "the Penguin editions"] have indices of characters, and 
 > although the names are usually translated and/or anglicized, they are a 
 > good starting point. 

For SCA use -- especially if you want something quickly -- Arval's advice is 
good, and I imagine most SCA vikings found their names in this wise.  You 
might try Laxdoela Saga (available in a very readable Penguin edition) for a 
higher-than-average showing of women's names, or pick through the others for 
something ending in -ny, -run, -bjorg, -gerd, etc. 

If you (or anyone else reading this) ever get to the stage where you care 
that names changed between viking times and the writing of the sagas, or that 
some names were regional and marked a Dane from a Swede, or that there's 
still debate over whether colourful epithets were used during the lifetime of 
the bearer, drop me a line.  It can get lonely wading through Victorian tomes 
of runic inscriptions, or linguistic surveys of scandinavian personal names 
in the place-names of Lincolnshire and Yorkshire. 

  Pagan
________________________________________________________________________
Jennifer Geard                         bloodthorn at sloth.equinox.gen.nz
Christchurch, New Zealand


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle at watson.ibm.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Subject: Re: German Names
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 1994 18:08:26 GMT
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research

Greetings from Arval!  Johann asked:

> I'm interested in finding a good solid German name for my
> persona, and don't really know where to look. Late period,
> say 1500. 

If you don't get enough information here, I can put you in touch with an
expert on the subject.  Drop me a line direct.

> I've seen a lot of names in the form of Person von Place. Does
> this imply simply that he is 'from' the Place, or
> that he is 'of' the Place: decended from or related to the Lord 
> of Place (i.e. is Johann von Litchenstein (sp?) imply House
> Litchenstein, or just he grew up there?)

In general "von" does not imply noble rank in period; it can imply origin
(he lives/lived there) or dominion (he holds land there).  Other locative
forms include "aus <Place>" and the adjectival form of the place.  E.g.,
"Johann aus Schwarzau" and "Johann Schwarzauer" both mean that Johann lives
in a place called "Schwarzau" (Blackfield).

> Also, regardless, what about familial names? Is it a Person FamilialName
> von Place?

Such combinations did occur quite frequently.  German family names followed
the same general patterns found in most languages: patronymic surnames,
occupational surnames, locative surname, and descriptive surnames are the
common categories.  Examples:

Patronymic: Friedrichssohn (son of Friedrich)
Occupational: Mueller, Messerschmidt (miller and knifesmith)
Locative: see above; one might well find something like "Johann Wiener von
	  Kleinberg", using two apparently locative bynames.
Descriptive: Braun, Grossman  (Brown, Big man)

If you are interested in finding a name that fits your persona well, in
time and place, then drop me a line and I'll put you in touch with someone
who will be happy to help.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord                                   mittle at watson.ibm.com


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: james at vuse.vanderbilt.edu (Carolyn M. James)
Subject: Re: Polish/Slav/German persona -- help!
Organization: Vanderbilt University School of Engineering, Nashville, TN, USA
Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 18:57:58 GMT

In article <2rr4rv$64c at search01.news.aol.com> mixx at aol.com (Mixx) writes:
>
>Being new to the SCA, and in the process of filling out my membership
>form, I have stumbled across something of a road block.  
>
>My persona is Middle Ages Polish/Slav(Hungarian) whose name,
>incidentally, is Janek (pronounced Yawnic).  This revelation came a
>few days ago from a teacher who happens to be Polish, and, since
>Janek means "John" in polish, and my first name is John, I had a
>name.
>
>Furthermore, if anyone outright *knows* any good books for a decent
>last name, I'd appriciate it!
>
>Janek

Greetings Janek,

I found a book on Hungarian Onomatology (sp?) by Bela Kalman to be most
helpful.  It has Hungarian and Slavic names and the history of said
names. I'm sorry that I can't recall the correct/complete title, I do
know that the author's name is correct. I wish you luck in search of a
good name.

Rozsa Laszlo
			--wolffriend at kovishar.umd.edu


From: folo at prairienet.org (F.L. Watkins)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Books Ya Gotta Have--But Not Necessarily to Read
Date: 13 Sep 1994 23:18:01 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

A new variation on the thread. I keep Noah Gordon's _The Physician_
on my bookshelf with all my other naming bookshelves and trot it
out regularly to show why you shouldn't trust historical novels
for anything approaching research. On the first page, the author
(portraying a pre-Conquest Anglo-Saxon family) uses modern
personal names, middle names, hereditary family surnames and
questionable nicknames and diminutives. If I had set out to
write a book to show how not to choose a name, I don't think
I could have done any better.

Yrs, Folo
-- 
Damin de Folo - F.L.Watkins - folo at prairienet.org
Baron Wurm Wald (MidRealm) - Commander Baldwin's (NWTA)


From: sclark at blues.epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Carroll-Clark)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: russian naming practices
Date: 4 Jan 1995 21:17:46 GMT
Organization: University of Toronto -- EPAS

Greetings!
	Even to this day, you'll find a few originally Russian "pagan"
names still in use.  Take Vladimir--a perfectly good old
Russian name, used by pagans.  Of course, then old Vladimir the Great
got himself sainted, so it became a Christian name.  That's
what seems to happen with a lot of the older Rus' names.  (Vladimir
actually took a Greek/Christian name when he was baptized,
but no one remembers THAT name, and he probably wasn't called by it
very much).
	Something which is also important:  The popularity of certain
Russian names seems to be tied to saints who bore them.  It should be
moot, then, that certain names were probably a lot less popular
before the death of the saint most associated with that name.
Good example here:Though my readings are limited to
those in English, French, and Latin, I haven't come across
a single man  named Sergei before the 14th century.  Not surprising,
since the most renowned St. Sergei died in the 14th century.
Go figure...today, you can't meet ten Russians without running into
a Sergei.(Russian MEN, that is...:-)

Cheers--
Nicolaa/Susan
(whose Russian persona is the daughter of a Sergei...)
Canton of Eoforwic
sclark at epas.utoronto.ca


From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Help with welsh persona
Date: 7 Jun 1995 19:37:20 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

Morgandark (morgandark at aol.com) wrote:
: I am working on creating a late 1500's welsh persona and need help with a
: last name.  Any suggestions or pointers to references would be
: appreciated.

For the late 16th century, you have a lot of options in format, if not in 
content. This was the period when the fixed surnames mandated by English 
law were beginning to replace the older ad hoc patronymic system. So you 
can use an old-style "ap X" surname (and have it refer either to your 
actual father or to some earlier generation at this point); an Anglicized 
"coalesced" form such as "Bowen" (ab Owen); an English-style s-possesive 
patronym such as "Evans"; or simply a plain given name (also originating 
in a patronym). Surnames derived from descriptive nicknames are also 
prevalent, although only a small number of the previous variety are 
common (such as "Coch" (red), "Vychan" (small/junior), etc.). 
Occupational and locative surnames are rare in Welsh at this period (and 
thus in modern times), but not unheard of. The major difference in 
substance (as opposed to form) of the Welsh names of this period is due 
to the fact that English given names have largely replace the ones of 
Welsh origin, and a small handful of names dominate the scene. In one set 
of late 16th century records from Pembrokeshire, the top ten (men's) 
names in order of popularity were: John, David, Thomas, William, Ieuan, 
Rhys, Gruffudd, Lewis, Phillip, and Jenkin. In total, in this document, 
only 23% of the given names were of Welsh origin.

"Welsh Surnames" by Morgan & Morgan has a great deal of information for 
Welsh surnames during this period. If you want a more structural 
analysis, at least for one particular region at one timepoint, try my 
analysis of the aforementioned records "Names and Naming Practices in 
Some North Pembrokeshire Toll Books (1599-1603)", published in the 1992 
Heralds Proceedings or in "Y Camamseriad" #1.

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn
hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu


From: guettier at moretcri.ensmp.fr (Christophe GUETTIER)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Help with French persona, please!
Date: 4 Aug 1995 06:52:13 GMT
Organization: E'cole Nationale Supe'rieure des Mines de Paris, Centre de Recherche en Informatique (CRI-ENSMP)

Ferro, Non Orro

Here are some Langue D'Oc Great Names

Southern France Medieval Historical Names :

Hugue de Lusignan
Adhemar de Monteil
Raymond de St Gilles, Conte de Toulouse, Marquis de Provence
Guillaume de Sabran
Conte des Beaux
...

Some Langue D'Oc feodal places :

Mallemort
Noves (Commanderie Templier)
Vaison
Carcassone
Muret
Mons
Comps
Aigues Mortes
Seguret
ChateauNeuf (also a good wine)
Vitrolles
Gigondas
Barroux
Puylaurens (Cathare place)
Montsegur (Cathare place)
Barbentanne
Boulbon
Chateurenard
Gordes
Cordes
Millau
....
d'Andaon


From: sjmoyes at lamar.ColoState.EDU (Shannon Moyes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: German Names
Date: 1 Jul 1996 20:16:00 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

In article <4ql0hd$31p at net.auckland.ac.nz>, clare at cs.auckland.ac.nz
(Clare West) says:

>I told a friend I would look into German names for her. Her persona
>is German Rennaisance (if that makes sense) 

Tell your friend to start with a book entitled
        A Catelog of Persons named in German Heroic Poetry
this is an excellent source with dates and clear refrences.

Good Luck,
Rossilin K. von Hohenzollern


From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: German Names
Date: 2 Jul 1996 09:16:12 -0400
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC

Greetings from Arval!  Rossilin von Hohenzollern suggested:

> Tell your friend to start with a book entitled
>       A Catelog of Persons named in German Heroic Poetry
> this is an excellent source with dates and clear refrences.

Is this a book of names used by real people, which also appeared in poetry,
or is it just a catalogue of names from poetry?  If it is the latter, then
it must be used with great caution as a source of names for the Society.
Some cultures in our period did name their children from some kinds of
literature, but as a general rule, one cannot assume that a name used in
period literature was also used by real people.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord                                         mittle at panix.com


From: b.scott at bscott.async.csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: German Names
Date: 4 Jul 1996 05:15:31 GMT
Organization: Cleveland State University

In article <4rb7es$80n at panix.com>, mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord) says:

>Greetings from Arval!  Rossilin von Hohenzollern suggested:

>> Tell your friend to start with a book entitled
>>       A Catelog of Persons named in German Heroic Poetry
>> this is an excellent source with dates and clear refrences.

>Is this a book of names used by real people, which also appeared in poetry,
>or is it just a catalogue of names from poetry?  If it is the latter, then
>it must be used with great caution as a source of names for the Society.
>Some cultures in our period did name their children from some kinds of
>literature, but as a general rule, one cannot assume that a name used in
>period literature was also used by real people.

Arval's concern is well-placed, but in this case the problem is small.  
Gillespie (the author) generally includes notes on actual use of the 
names in question.  Opening the book at random I find under HERDEGEN 
a heading 'pn', for 'personal name', at which we are told that the name 
is found in one or more 9th c. German sources, with a reference to two 
of the classic collections of early Germanic personal names.  In general 
one need only make sure that Gillespie notes actual use of the name 
outside of literature.  (It's not a bad idea also to note the dates of 
that usage, of course!)

Talan Gwynek


From: "E. L. Wimett" <SILVERDRAGON at mail.charleston.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: German names
Date: Fri, 05 Jul 1996 21:03:20 -0700
Organization: Silver Dragon Company

Clare West wrote:

> We do have another book by the same author:
> 
> Mittelhochdeutsches Namenbuch nach schlesischen Quellen : ein Denkmal d.
> Deutschtums
> 
> is that any good?

It is actually better for the purposes of period documentation.  "Mittelhochdeutsches" means "Middle High German" and any name from Middle 
High German is by definition period. . .

Alisoun


From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Anyone speak Hungarian????
Date: 8 Sep 1996 16:56:52 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

Michael Macchione (ghesmiz at chopin.udel.edu) wrote:
: A good gentle in my shire has been plaguing me to help her with
: registering her name, and as a good little herald, I've been trying to
: help her out.  Unfortunately, I don't know a word of Hungarian.  Italian,
: yes, French, sure, Spanish, of course, but Hungarian has left me hanging.

: She wishes to be known as Zophia the Wanderer (I might have misspelled
: Zophia), but would prefer "the Wanderer" to be Hungarian, as it should be.
: Can anyone help me with this.

A useful source of information on historical aspects of Hungarian names is
Bela Kalman's "The World of Names" (Budapest, 1978).

However, the first question your friend needs to consider is whether "the
Wanderer" is a description that would have been used as a name for a
period Hungarian. (It is, of course, one of the most overworked cliche/s
in SCA naming.)  A much better approach is to consider the _reason_ why
the persona is "wandering" and look at names that might express that
situation more clearly and idiomatically.  Is she a Hungarian  living
elsewhere?  Then she might be  named whatever it is that the people of
_that_ land call Hungarians.  Has she come from elsewhere to live in
Hungary?  Kalman lists many Hungarian surnames derived from non-Hungarian
ethnicities.  Does she have a profession that requires her to travel? Then
it would be the profession (or some aspect of it) that she would likely be
named for.  The simple fact is that period people did not wander aimlessly
if they could at all help it.  And in virtually all cases, the _reason_
for the travel would be much more salient to their interactions with
others than the _fact_ of the travel.  As it happens, Kalman does list a
surname "Bolygo/" (/ = accent on previous letter) which he translates as
"wandering, vagrant". Here we reach the crux of the situation.
"Wandering" was not looked upon as a positive, or even neutral,
characteristic.  In order to get "Sophia the Wanderer", the chances are
she's going to have to take "Sophia the Bum". Is this what she means to
imply with her name? If not, she may want to reconsider.

I note that Kalman lists "Zso/fia" as the 6th most popular woman's name in
16th century Hungarian records.  It should be noted that the spellings
quoted from him in this post are almost certainly "standard modern
spellings" and will not necessarily reflect period spelling.

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn


From: simahoyo at animal.blarg.net (Linda Knighton)
Newsgroups: alt.heraldry.sca
Subject: Irish names
Date: 24 Oct 1996 10:04:31 -0700

     In choosing an Irish name, you need to choose a time period first.
There are major changes in forms through time. O'Hart's Irish Pedigrees
and the O'Cleirigh Book of Genealogies would be the best resources.
Have fun.
Simahoyo
-- 
Anya Dot Tethl(respect for kindred)
simahoyo


From: lsteele at mtholyoke.edu (Lisa Steele)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period French Names?
Date: 21 Nov 1996 21:44:50 GMT
Organization: Mount Holyoke College

bernajoux (sbickel at theedge.com) wrote:
>       Anyone who can help with  recomendations on books on period
> french names and where to  find said books. Or perhaps a web site or
> database somewhere?  I would be most grateful.  Thanks,
> 
>                       Bernajoux
  There is a long list in _Medieval France_ from White Rose Publishing, 
but that's a secondary source and presently out of print. The _best_ 
source is a wonderful geneology series on the French royal houses at the 
Library of Congress in DC. After that, try histories of the region you 
have in mind.
  --Esclarmonde


From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Guides to Medieval Naming
Date: 4 Dec 1996 15:45:42 -0500
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC

Greetings from Arval!

I have just added new pointers to articles to my collection of medieval
naming guides, at http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names.  Recent additions
(most also available from the Academy of S. Gabriel,
http://www.us.itd.umich.edu/~ximenez/s.gabriel/) are:

  On the Documentation and Construction of Period Mongolian Names, 
    by Baras-aghur Naran 
  
  Early Irish Feminine Names From the Index To O'Brien's "Corpus 
    Genealogiarum Hiberniae", by Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn 
  
  A List of Arabic Womens' Names, by Da'ud ibn Auda 
  
  A List of 16th-century Spanish Women's Names, by Elsbeth Anne Roth
  
  Flemish Names from Bruges, 1400-1600, by Loveday Toddekyn

  Swedish Feminine Names from ca. 1300, by Lindorm Eriksson.

If anyone has other material to contribute to this collection, or if anyone
would like to discuss writing new articles, please contact me.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord                                         mittle at panix.com


From: scott at math.csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Help on Irish Personna?
Date: 3 Dec 1996 18:49:40 GMT
Organization: Cleveland State University

In article <5803ib$dtq at colombia.earthlink.net>, bloodrose at earthlink.net 
says...

[snips]

>My husband & I are trying to form irish personna's for ourselves. I,
>personally am having a terrible time trying to find irish female names
>and wondered if anyone knew of any books or web pages that would help
>me in finding a suitable name for myself.

The best book by far is _Irish Names_ by Donnchadh O/ Corra/in & 
Fidelma Maguire (slash indicates acute accent over previous vowel).  
My copy was published by the Lilliput Press in Dublin in 1990; the 
ISBN is O 946640 66 1.  It gives a large number of Irish names, 
both men's and women's, in both early Irish and modern Irish forms.  
If you can't find this, write me at <scott at math.csuohio.edu>, and 
I'll copy out a small selection to give you at least a place to 
start.  Whatever you do, *avoid* the _Book of Irish Names_ by 
Coghlan, Grehan, and Joyce; it's virtually useless for SCA purposes, 
*especially* the section by Coghlan on given names.

>Also, my husband is thinking about using the name Kyran (which we
>found in an irish book at the library) but I'm unsure if it would be
>considered a period name & I don't think the book we found it in said
>during which time period it would have been used in... does anyone
>know if this would be an acceptable name?

'Kyran' appears to be a modern English spelling of the Irish 'Ciara/n', 
which, though borne by some 26 early saints, never became very popular 
as a secular name in the early period.  In short, 'Ciara/n' is a fine 
name, but 'Kyran' is doubtful.  The usual English version is 'Kieran', 
which would probably be registerable with an English version of an 
Irish patronymic.  (With 'Ciara/in' one would have to use an Irish 
version.)

Talan Gwynek


From: Robert Lightfoot <celtcat at gnatnet.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Help on Irish Personna?
Date: 7 Dec 1996 04:27:11 GMT

Greetings,
My persona is a 14th c. Irish woman, and I've been doing lot's of name 
research. I looked up Kyran and saw it was a variant of Kieran, which is 
the name of an Irish bishop who may have predates St. Patrick. It means 
"little dark one". 
I research  this in _Book of Irish Names: First, family & place names_ by 
Ronan Coghlan ISBN 0-8069-6944-X and
_The new American Dictionary of Baby Names-(_Facts on File Dictionary of 
First Names-)by Leslie Dunkling ISBN 0-451-17107-1.

The Coglan book is pretty good. Others include _Pocket Guide to Irish 
Family Names- by Ida Grehan, _Irish Christan Names_ by Coglan and the 
-Surnames of Ireland_ by MacLysaght. Try InterLibrary Loan at you local 
library. If they can't get the book, ask for a photocopy of the page with 
your choices of names on them.

Lady Siobhan ni Ahearn
Shire of Dragonfly Marsh
Meridies


From: scott at math.csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Help on Irish Personna?
Date: 11 Dec 1996 22:12:22 GMT
Organization: Cleveland State University

In article <58armv$5fm at bill.gnatnet.net>, celtcat at gnatnet.net says...

>I research  this in _Book of Irish Names: First, family & place names_ by 
>Ronan Coghlan ISBN 0-8069-6944-X and
>_The new American Dictionary of Baby Names-(_Facts on File Dictionary of 
>First Names-)by Leslie Dunkling ISBN 0-451-17107-1.

>The Coglan book is pretty good.

NO!!!  For SCA purposes the Coghlan book is nearly useless.  For one 
thing, it is not generally accepted as documentation by the College of 
Arms.  It contains many modern forms, it doesn't clearly differentiate 
between Irish and Anglicized Irish, and some of the information in it 
is simply wrong.

The Dunkling isn't bad - for a baby-name book.  It's no substitute for 
real documentation, however.

> Others include _Pocket Guide to Irish 
>Family Names- by Ida Grehan, _Irish Christan Names_ by Coglan and the 
>-Surnames of Ireland_ by MacLysaght.

The MacLysaght is a decent source, provided you recognize that the 
header spellings are modern English forms, and the Irish forms given 
in italics are modern Irish forms.  Most of the Irish forms would be 
suitable for the 16th c., though a few are strictly 20th c.; almost 
none would be suitable for a 13th c. persona.

Talan Gwynek


From: scott at math.csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: reliable source for viking name
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 20:20:59 GMT
Organization: Cleveland State University

On Mon, 6 Jan 1997 09:22:23, dnb105 at psu.edu (Duane Brocious) wrote:

>idavis at ix.netcom.com(Irene Davis) writes:
>>contains ALL of his sagas, and, being from Iceland, is NOT anglecized
>>to death. Icelandic sources are excellant for "Viking" names because
>>they have maintained the Norse naming system to this day.

>Probably the best of the simple solutions.
>Examination of manuscripts is the only "authentic" solution, but how do you 
>submit a name (with all its various spellings in the same manuscript) in a 
>runic alphabet. And would it be accepted _without_ anglicizing it ?

Absolutely.  (There was a time when the College insisted on replacing
thorn and edh with <th>, <dh>, <d>, etc., but it finally recognized
that they are ordinary period letters.)  Runic alphabets generally
aren't a problem with names taken from manuscripts, since they're
mostly found in inscriptions.  While we register many extensions to
the basic modern 26-letter Roman alphabet, we don't register names
written in non-Roman alphabets (or syllabaries, or ideographic
scripts); those have to be transcribed, e.g., as if for a mediaeval or
Renaissance Western European document of fairly standard character.

The variant spellings aren't a problem: register one, and use the rest
as the mood strikes.  I like what Effrick does in her posts, for
instance.  I remember a submissions herald in An Tir who proposed to
do the same thing with her name; my response was to offer her a couple
more variants.  As far as I'm concerned, the registered version is
like a mediaeval name recorded in a tax roll: a representative
instance.  (For administrative reasons, however, it is useful to
remember exactly what form of one's name *is* registered if one plans
to have further dealings with the CoA!)

Talan Gwynek


From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Looking For Romanian/Hungarian last names
Date: 8 Jan 1997 18:50:49 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

Tim Smith (cta9607 at burridge.nscc.ns.ca) wrote:
: If anyone knows were i can find a list of Romanina/Hungarian names
: please mail me 

Keep in mind that Romanian and Hungarian names are going to be very
different from each other. The only source I've run across for historical
names in Hungary is Bela Kalman's "The World of Names: A Study in
Hungarian Onomatology". Although it takes a bit of close reading sometimes
to figure out the historical provenence of the name under discussion, he
_does_ explicitly discuss historical changes in practice and in the name
pool. I can't help much on Romania, I'm afraid.

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn


From: davesg at netaxs.com (David J. Szent-Gyorgyi)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Looking For Romanian/Hungarian last names
Date: 9 Jan 1997 00:14:41 GMT
Organization: Net Access - Philadelphia's Original ISP

Heather Rose Jones <hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu> wrote:

> Tim Smith (cta9607 at burridge.nscc.ns.ca) wrote:
> : If anyone knows were i can find a list of Romanina/Hungarian names
> : please mail me 
> : thanks
> 
> Keep in mind that Romanian and Hungarian names are going to be very
> different from each other. 

> The only source I've run across for historical
> names in Hungary is Bela Kalman's "The World of Names: A Study in
> Hungarian Onomatology". Although it takes a bit of close reading sometimes
> to figure out the historical provenence of the name under discussion, he
> _does_ explicitly discuss historical changes in practice and in the name
> pool. 

I submitted my name and device at Herald's Point at Pennsic on
year, and the herald used Kalman for the on-site checks for
language.  I don't recall seeing any other books on the subject
there.

You might do the simple thing: use the Hungarian-language
convention to name yourself as being "from a place."  

I submitted my name six years ago, when I knew of fewer than
half a dozen Magyar personae.  I wasn't sure that the
Heralds would have *any* resources on historical names, and I
was sure that they wouldn't know Hungarian, so I decided to use the
simple scheme, as it would require little research and no
justification.  As I wanted the name of a particular town, I
picked the place with some care, to make sure that I could prove
it existed at the date required.

All you need to do is tack an "i" on at the end of the surname.

Vizontlatasra,
       ,   ,  ,
Kolozsvari Arpad,

"or, in your language, Arpad from the town of Kolozsvar."
---                                                                ,   ,  ,
Dave Szent-Gyorgyi                                          Kolozsvari Arpad
davesg at netaxs.com                Bhakail & Hartshorn-dale, East Kingdom, SCA
"We HAVE to teach the net                           Sable, a trident between
 to handle diacriticals!"                      two hippocampi respectant Or.


From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: need help with name
Date: 16 Jan 1997 16:43:53 -0500
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC

Greetings from Arval! 

> I had chosen Rebecca as a first name, and was planning on having an
> English persona, and then changed my mind, and decided to go with a
> Celtic (1/2 English, 1/2 Irish) persona, and then chose a last name that
> I know is legal for this (McIver).  Can anyone tell me if Rebecca is an
> ok first name for 1350 Scotland/Ireland. 

As far as I can tell, Rebecca was not in use in the British Isles in our
period.  It might have been used by Jews, in the years when Jews were
allowed in England, but I have only indirect evidence for this.  The name
does not appear in any of my sources on period Irish, English, or Scottish
names.  (If you want to be Irish, don't look at Scottish naming.  There
were similarities, but they were not the same.)

This is not surprising: Old Testament names, as a class, were unusual in
pre-reformation Europe.  There are exceptions of course, like David, but in
general Old Testament names were not used by European Christians in our
period. 

You can find one reference on period Irish naming at my names web page,
http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names. 

"MacIver" is both an Irish and a Scottish surname, derived from "mac
Iomhair".  "McIver" is an anglicized form, so it should be combined with an
English or anglicized given name.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord                                         mittle at panix.com


From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Medieval Name Lists
Date: 5 Feb 1997 16:44:44 -0500
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC

Greetings from Arval!

I have added pointers to some new articles from my medieval names web site, 
http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names. 

Talan Gwynek, "A List of Feminine Personal Names Found in Scottish Records"
  The names are extracted from George Black, "Surnames of Scotland", and
  organized into two lists: pre-1400 and post-1400.

Talan Gwynek, "Feminine Given Names in 'A Dictionary of English Surnames'"
  Similarly, the names are extracted from this dictionary by P. H. Reaney,
  which contains thousands of dated examples.   This monumental article was
  previously published in the 1994 KWHS proceedings.

Walraven van Nijmegen, "Hungarian Personal Names of the 16th Century"
  It includes tables of the most common masculine names at four points
  from 1450 to 1574.  We hope to expand this article with additional data
  from some other sources, including similar tables for feminine names.

Comments and contributions are always welcome.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord                                         mittle at panix.com


From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Medieval names: new article
Date: 12 Feb 1997 18:06:11 -0500
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC

Greetings from Arval!

I have recently posted a new article on my medieval names web page,
http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/. 

Yorkshire Feminine Names from 1379, by Talan Gwynek

In the near future, Talan hopes to provide the masculine names from the
same tax roll.  I also hope to have more information on period Hungarian
names, late-period French names, and 12th century Genoese names.  

If anyone has articles to contribute, or would like to discuss plans to
compile new articles, please contact me.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord                                         mittle at panix.com


From: brianscott at aol.com (BrianScott)
Newsgroups: alt.heraldry.sca
Subject: Re: German Epithets
Date: 16 Mar 1997 17:34:40 GMT

kern at pcisys.net (Kern) wrote:
>  I am trying to do research on my name & I am wondering if
>anyone knew where I can get a list (or some such) of german
>epithets.

Quite a few books have been written on German surnames and 
their ancestors; most are in German, and most draw primarily 
on the records of a single geographical area within Germany.  
(This is important, since there were considerable differences in 
local dialect in mediaeval Germany.)  One of the biggerr collections 
is Josef Karlmann Brechenmacher's two-volume _Etymologisches 
Wo"rterbuch der Deutschen Familiennamen_, which is in quite a 
few university libraries.  A more popular treatment by Hans 
Bahlow, originally published as _Deutsches Namenlexikon_, has 
recently been translated into English as _Dictionary of German 
Names_; it is from the Max Kade Institute of German-American 
Studies at the University of Wisconson-Madison and costs $22.50.  
A classic in the field is Adolf Socin's _Mittelhochdeutsches 
Namenbuch_, which concentrates on the area around Basel and 
has few citations later than the 13th c.  Bahlow also wrote a book 
with that title, but his sources were mostly Silesian, and his 
citations are mostly from the 14th c.  I believe that a man named 
Zoder compiled a work somewhat similar to Brechenmacher's, 
but I don't have the title handy.

If you have some particular type of byname in mind, feel free to 
ask me questions at the address below; I have most of these 
sources handy.

Talan Gwynek

Do Not Use: brianscott at aol.com
Always Use: scott at math.csuohio.edu


From: Antti Leino <huu at huuhkaja.pc.Helsinki.FI>
Newsgroups: alt.heraldry.sca
Subject: Re: Finnish Names
Date: 1 Apr 1997 10:22:18 GMT
Organization: Per-ankh Helsinkii

Patrick Rigby  <prigby at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Does anybody know of a good source for pre-christian Finnish names and
> history?

I'd be more than just a little surprised to hear that anyone knows of
such a source -- Finnish names were only written down in a somewhat
systematic fashion in the last couple of centuries of our period, which
is considerably after Christianity set in.

So far the best source on Pagan-era Finnish names known to man (in this
case, me) is a Ph.D dissertation written in the University of Hamburg:
'Die alten ostseefinnischen Personennamen im rahmen eines urfinnischen
Namensystems' by D.-E. Stoebke, published in 1964 by Leibniz-Verlag.
It's not primarily about pre-Christian Finnish names but about
reconstructing the proto-Finnic naming system; for our purposes it is
nevertheless the best that exists.

Many Pagan-era names survived to Christian times, however, some even as
given names but mostly as by-names. The problem with these, of course,
is that recognising the old-style names requires a bit of background
knowledge.

If you wish, we can discuss the names part of your question via e-mail.
Unfortunately I know just about nothing of sources about Finnish history
written in English.
-- 
Pietari Pentinpoika Uv                      Antti.Leino at iki.FI
         Barony of Aarnimetsa, Kingdom of Drachenwald


From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: I was wondring.....
Date: 2 Apr 1997 11:43:25 -0500
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC

Greetings from Arval!

> I was under the impression that name submissions were allowed to have
> some element of the legal name incorporated into it, even if it is OOP.

Yes, that's basically correct.  The relevent rule is II.4:

 Elements of the submitter's legal name may be used as the corresponding
 part of a Society name, if such elements are not excessively obtrusive and
 do not violate other sections of these rules.

 This allows individuals to register elements of their legal name that
 cannot be documented from period sources.  The allowance is only made for
 the actual legal name, not any variants.  Someone whose legal given name
 is "Ruby" may register "Ruby" as a Society given name, but not "Rubie",
 "Rubyat", or "Rube".  Corresponding elements are defined by their type,
 not solely their position in the name.  This means a person with the legal
 name "Andrew Jackson" could use "Jackson" as a surname in his Society name
 in any position where a surname is appropriate, such as "Raymond Jackson
 Turner" or "Raymond Jackson of London", not just as his last name element.

This rule only waives the documentation requirement.  The name could still
be returned for other reasons.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord                                         mittle at panix.com 


From: Kristine Elliott <sfic8 at scfn.thpl.lib.fl.us>
Newsgroups: alt.heraldry.sca
Subject: Re: I was wondering.....
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 19:19:09 -0400

On 6 Apr 1997, Connie Collins wrote:
> Modern culture is unusual for its present practice of stringing any old 
> bit of nonsense together and calling it a name. 
> Didn't some cultures have a practice of stringing sylables together, as 
> in pick one from column A and one from column B?   I suspect people 
> occasionally got given _pretty_ names in those cultures. 
> -
>   CONNIE COLLINS  RLKP88A at prodigy.com
>   Who is also known as Volcheka

Connie, some cultures did, particularly in the earlier periods.  Some
Anglo-Saxon names were formed that way early on, as were some Norse and
Welsh names. I believe the early Germanic names were and probably Gaelic
names at an early stage.

However, even in cultures that formed names this way, there were rules.
They tended to have specific pools of prothemes (first elements) and
deuterothemes (second elements). These were generally originally words
with some kind of meaning, though a dithemic name (name formed
of two elements) in most cultures did not have to make sense. Also, most
cultures tended to become more conservative as time went on. Most cultures
that used this type of naming tended eventually to stop forming names
randomly from the pools of prothemes and deuterothemes, and instead
adopted a selection of names originally formed that way as an established
name pool.

If you try to form a name this way, you need to find multiple examples of
each element used in the same place in dithemic names from one culture. It
is a good idea to doublecheck your constructed name with a good name
herald; not all sources are equally reliable. 
 
As for pretty, that is mostly in the eye -- or the ear -- of the beholder
. . .

 Triste Elliott           | "If you can't get rid of them ugly old 
sfic8 at scfn.thpl.lib.fl.us | skeletons in your closet, at least teach 'em
                          | how to dance funny." Rev. Billy C. Wirtz


From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Manx Names
Date: 4 Apr 1997 17:02:00 -0500
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC

Patrick Rigby wrote:
> I am looking for source of names from the Isle of Man for my lady.  Any
> help would be great!

I know of one book on Manx names:

  Kneen, J.J.  Personal Names from the Isle of Man.  Oxford University
  Press: London, 1937.

It's pretty good; many names are dated.  Many members of the College of
Arms have copies.

If you need more specific help or if you can't find this book, drop a line
to me, to Talan, or best of all to Tangwystyl.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord                                         mittle at panix.com


From: scott at math.csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Manx Names
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 01:10:08 GMT
Organization: Cleveland State University

On Thu, 03 Apr 1997 21:21:54 -0700, Patrick Rigby <prigby at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>I am looking for source of names from the Isle of Man for my lady.  Any
>help would be great!

I know of a couple of books.  One is _Surnames of the Manks_, by
Leslie Quilliam; it was published in 1989 by Cashtal Books, Peel, Isle
of Man, and the ISBN is 0 9514539 0 4.  The other is _The Personal
Names of the Isle of Man_, J. J. Kneen, 1937, which you might be able
to find in an academic library or through interlibrary loan.  Both
have some period citations, mostly fairly late, and both have more
information on surnames than on forenames, but either is a good start.

Talan Gwynek


From: "Chip" <rinman at ucsd.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Byzantine Name Sources (was Re: Naming practices)
Date: 12 Apr 1997 21:53:50 GMT
Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd.

Arval d'Espas Nord <mittle at panix.com> wrote:
>Louis le Blanc wrote:
> > (I know the ancient Greeks used unique names, but they only had one name,
> > and are before period.  What were Period Greek practices?)  
> 
> Depends what period and what class.  The Byzantine nobility in the 13th
> century, for example, used given names with descriptive bynames or family
> surnames.  Their given name stock included Greek names (Theodore) and
> Hellinized Christian names (Simon).  Lower classes at this time probably
> only used a single given name, but I don't know any source which can tell
> us what names they used.  Once the Turks conquered Byzantium, the naming
> patterns changed completely of course.

A good source for Byzantine names in (early) period is:

        The Prosopography of the Later Roman Empire
        A.H.M. Jones, et al
        Cambridge University Press (1971-)
        ISBN: 0521072336(v.1)

It comes in three volumes, with the third volume in parts a & b.  The first
volume covers AD 260-395, the second volume covers AD 395-527, and the
third volume covers AD 527-641.  The authors promise a follow up set of
volumes to cover the later empire, but it is as of yet (AFAIK) unpublished.

There are other, limited, prosopographies of the Byzantine era which fall
more into the heart of our period.  One such is:

        The Doukai: a contribution to Byzantine prosopography
        Demitrios I. Polemis
        University of London (1968)
        ISBN: 0485131226

For more information on Byzantine naming practices, you can see:

        Studies in Byzantine History and Prosopography
        Donald M. Nicol
        Varorium Reprints <London> (1986)
        ISBN: 0860781909

Chip


From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: New name resources
Date: 11 Apr 1997 18:59:42 -0400
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC

I have added several new articles to my names web page,

* Feminine Names from Thirteenth Century Perugia 

  Based on a census taken in 1285.  This article will eventually be
  expanded to cover men's names, too.

Names from Fourteenth Century Foix 
Names from Thirteenth Century Languedoc 

  Two short name lists from Mistress Cateline de la Mor.

Origins and Meaning of Ukrainian Surnames 
Two passenger lists from early 17th century English ships to America. 
Passenger lists from voyages of exploration in 1492 and 1519. 

  I found these on the web and thought them sufficient useful to add to the
  collection.  The Ukranian surname article is not scholarly and deals
  mostly with modern names; but it does address period naming a little and
  it is better than nothing.  The passenger lists were at a genealogy
  website.  They contains a couple dozen names each, English in the first
  one and Spanish in the rest.  

You can find these at <http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/>.  Other
articles in the works cover 13th century France, 16th century Spain, and
several articles on Irish and English names.

Anyone who would like to help with this on-going project is welcome to
contact me.  There are several valuable projects that could be handled by
novices in the field of name research.

===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord                                         mittle at panix.com


From: scott at math.csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Research Help with a 12th Century Norman Name
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:54:18 GMT
Organization: Cleveland State University

On 17 Apr 1997 06:37:39 GMT, rhysgwynn at aol.com (RhysGwynn) wrote:
>I'm researching a name and having trouble.  I have a friend who wants to
>use the name Brien as his given name for a mid 12th century Norman in
>England. 

Reaney & Wilson, _A Dictionary of English Surnames_, cite (s.n. Brian)
<Radulfus filius Brien> 1086 (from Domesday Book), <Brien> 1088 (from
the Staffordshire Chartulary), and <Ralph Brien> 1160 (from the Abbey
of Bury St. Edmunds in Suffolk), whose byname is at that early date
most likely a true patronym.  E.G. Withycombe, _The Oxford Dictionary
of English Christian Names_, cites the artificially Latinized
<Brienus> from 1199 (s.n. Brian).  The name (in this context) is
Breton, brought in by the Normans, and this spelling is fine.  (In the
North it has other sources.)

>Also some place names for use in his surname would be
>appreciated.

If you can find Reaney & Wilson (or the earlier edition called _A
Dictionary of British Surnames_, which has only Reaney's name on it),
you can find any number of suitable place-names by browsing, and
you'll find them in suitable forms besides.  A good alternative is
Eilert Ekwall's _The Concise Oxford Dictionary of English
Place-Names_, which contains numerous citations from the 12th and 13th
c.  The former is often to be found in the reference section of public
libraries; the latter is a little more specialized, but it's still not
too hard to find.

Please feel free to consult by e-mail if you have further questions.

Talan Gwynek


From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Research Help with a 12th Century Norman Name
Date: 18 Apr 1997 04:13:13 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

RhysGwynn (rhysgwynn at aol.com) wrote:
: I'm researching a name and having trouble.  I have a friend who wants to
: use the name Brien as his given name for a mid 12th century Norman in
: England.  He says there was a man by the name of Brien Fitz-Count who held
: Wallingford Castle during that time period but he got it from a novel (by
: a respected historian, but a novel nonetheless) And when I looked for that
: name all i could find were variations like Brian and Brion...Brien was
: found but in a Welsh context. 

: Could some gentle Herald or other knowledgable person please direct me to
: some research material or tell me whether this name is appropriate for a
: 12th Century Noble?  Also some place names for use in his surname would be
: appreciated.

Reaney & Wilson's "Dictionary of English Surnames" (p.63f under "Brian")
notes several examples of the spelling "Brien" as a given name: Radulfus
filius Brien (1086), Brien (1088); less direct, but of relevance to your
12th c. friend is the surname example of "Ralph Brien" (1160).
Withycombe's "Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names" (p.53 under
"Brian") notes a Latinized "Brienus" as a given name in 1199.

For a 12th c. nobleman, the most common form of surname would be taken
from the name of some notable portion of his estate, used with the
preposition "de". If your local library has a copy of Ekwall's "Concise
Oxford Dictionary of English Place-Names", it is an excellant place to
find dated examples of possible candidates.

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn


From: scott at math.csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Manx names
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 20:17:39 GMT
Organization: Cleveland State University

On Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:37:39 -0500, Chris Miller <marundel at ponyexpress.net> wrote:
>Is there a good, cheap, readily available source for researching names
>from the Isle of Mann? I seem to remember a book entitled "Naming
>Practices on the Isle of Mann", but it is not in my library, my mentor's
>library, or the local university.

I have seen two.  One is a 1989 paperback, _Surnames of the Manks_, by
Leslie Quilliam, ISBN 0 9514539 0 4; it's published by Cashtal Books,
3 Peveril Road, Peel, Isle of Man.  The other is (I think) _The
Personal Names of the Isle of Man_, by J. J. Kneen, 1937; I believe
that Oxford was the publisher.

Talan Gwynek


From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Manx names
Date: 23 Apr 1997 22:06:47 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

Chris Miller (marundel at ponyexpress.net) wrote:
: Someone more versed in onomastics than myself (Talan?),

: Is there a good, cheap, readily available source for researching names
: from the Isle of Mann?

Taking your list of attributes as conjunctive rather than disjunctive, the
short answer is "no". I.e., there is no source that is simultaneously
good, cheap, and readily available. I've only seen one source that I
consider "good" -- Kneen's "Personal Names of the Island of Man". I
believe that it is out of print, so "readily available" is out, and
"cheap" is a matter of the luck of the second-hand store. (Or xerox
machine.) 

As a name source, it is much better if used to _choose_ an appropriate
name, than if you attempt to use it to _document_ an already-chosen name.
There simply isn't much period data on Manx names. Most of what there is,
is listed in Kneen. So it would be fairly easy to look at the available
information and construct a name from elements you know were used there.
With a certain amount of background information and practice, you might be
able to judge what other sorts of elements would have been reasonable and
in what form. But from the point of view of saying, "Can I document X as a
Manx name?" the chances are you're out of luck.

(I'd give more bibliographic info on Kneen, but I'm at school and doing
this from memory.)

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn


From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: New names articles
Date: 12 May 1997 13:54:39 -0400
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC

I've just added two new articles to my names website,
http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/

  A Simple Guide to Constructing 12th Century Scottish Gaelic Names, by
  Effric neyn Kenyoech  

An excellent general guide to the subject.  Very highly recommended for
anyone interested in this period.

  1066 List of Knights 

This list was compiled for a genealogy website, but it seems to be useful
for people interested in Norman names from this period.  Use it with care:
I can't vouch for the spellings.

If you would like to discuss research projects for this website, or if you
have any questions, drop me a line.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord                                         mittle at panix.com


From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Newsgroups: alt.heraldry.sca,rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Finnish Names
Date: 29 Jul 1997 11:40:31 -0400
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC

Greetings from Arval! 
> Um... maybe you could try the Kalevala?
> 
> Finnish culture isn't my forte by any stretch; but that might be a place
> to start, anyway!

According to Pietari Uv, who knows more about Finnish names than anyone
I've met, the Kalevala is a poor source for names.  He recently wrote in
another thread:

  The usual mistake people over in America do when they try to come up with
  a period Finnish name is to overdo it -- The so-called 'original' Finnish
  given names are usually 19th C innovations. The epic Kalevala isn't a
  good name source either (it was rather heavily edited, and quite a few of
  the names are a result of this editing process; many of the rest were
  just plain mythological and not used by normal people).
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord                                         mittle at panix.com


Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 20:29:40 -0500
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
From: Dennis and/or Dory Grace <amazing at mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: ANST - Bill de Provence

Salut, Cozyns,

Lyonel aisai.

I just happened to notice this signature line today:
>--Bill (who will soon hopefully have a better name once he can nail down
>some research on 13th c. Provence)

An excellent choice, midon.  I came to an interest of Provence via studies
in occitan ancien, long after I'd chosen and passed an English name.
Still, as a starting point, you might try the names of the Troubadors (12th
and 13th century) as source material.  All of these gentlemen originated in
Languedoc, of which Provence is the eastern tip:

Jaufre' Rudel de Blaia
Bernart de Ventadorn
Peire d'Alvernhe
Arnaut de Mareuil
Peire Vidal
Raimon Jordan
Raimbaut de Vaqueiras
Bertran de Born
Guilhem de Cabestanh
Gaucelm Faidit
Aimeric de Peguilhan
Pons de Capdueill
Jausbert de Puycibot
Aimeric de Belenoi
Bernart Arnaut de Moncuc
Peire Cardenal
Bernart d'Auriac
Guiraut Riquier
Arnaut Daniel
Raimbaut d'Aurenga
Raimon de Miraval
Guilhem de Montanhagol
Richart de Berbezilh
Albert de Sisteron
Folquet de Marseilla
Guiraut de Salignac
Guilhem de Figueira
Bertolome Zorzi

Some of these names have variant spellings:

Guillem for Guilhem
Raymon, Raymond, or Raimond for Raimon
Giraut or Giraud for Guiraut
Arnaud for Arnaut

Hoping I haven't repeated any of these names, ieu reste

lo vostre por vos servir
Sir Lyonel Oliver Grace
Recovering Herald 


Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 00:20:36 -0500
To: "Mark Harris" <mark_harris at risc.sps.mot.com>
From: Dennis and/or Dory Grace <amazing at mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: ANST - Bill de Provence

Salut, Cozyn,

You asked:
>Do you have a list of sources of where you got these names?

No pasa nada.  I took all the names on my list from:

Blackburn, Paul.  _Proensa:  An Anthology of Troubadour Poetry._ Berkeley:
U of California Press, 1978.

Hill, Raymond Thompson and Thomas Goddard Bergin.  _Anthology of the
Provencal Troubadours_.  New Haven, CN: Yale UP, 1941.

Topsfield, L. T.  _Troubadours and Love_.  Cambridge:  Cambridge UP, 1975

vostre cozyn
Sir Lyonel


From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Please help with sources on Spanish Knights circa 1100 AD
Date: 30 Sep 1997 16:23:37 -0400
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC

Greetings from Arval! L. Cancio wrote:
> I have just recently joined the SCA and would like to model my persona as
> a Spanish knight circa 1100 AD.  Can anyone help point me in some
> directions for armor photos and history of names?

There is a list of 11th century Castillian & Leonese given names available
on the web at

  http://www.us.itd.umich.edu/~ximenez/s.gabriel/docs/spanish11m.html

You can build a name appropriate to your period by choosing one name for
yourself and one for your father, and putting them together thus:

Juan son of Martin = Juan Martinez
Sancho son of Suero = Sancho Suerez

I'm currently reading a very good history of medieval Spain.  If you'd like
the reference, drop me a line.  For general background on your persona,
you'll probably enjoy reading "El Cid" (Cantar del Mio Cid, Poem of the
Cid), which can be found in many editions.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord                                         mittle at panix.com


Subject: ANST - Name changes
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 98 23:11:24 MST
From: Tim McDaniel <tmcd at crl.com>
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

As 'wolf wrote, "culture and times change".  In England,
there were several periods when the name stock changed
radically.  After the Conquest, most of the Old English
names (the Agilwulf, Aether_lstan, etc. types of names --
Germanic-based protheme + deuterotheme types) went out of
use except for certain Wessex royal names and saints' names
(e.g., Edward, Edmund).  A lot of Norman names gots popular
among the populace.  There was a great burst of creativity
in naming in the 12th Century, but the name stock shrank
back afterwards.  Old Testament names started coming into
style among Christians with the Renaissance (the Jews had
been using some for millenia).  The Puritans had a brief
flurry of Flee-Sin, Through-Tribulation-We-Come-To-The-Lord
(called "Tribby" by her friends), and such.

20th Century America is highly unusual in inventing and
borrowing names, compared to our period.

As well, name frequency patterns have changed.  In England
1600-1800, the top three female names accounted for half the
female population (Mary, Elizabeth, Anne).  For several
centuries, 15-30% of all the men in England were named John;
William + John + Thomas accounted for over half the men in
England 1550-1800 (and 63% in 1650-1700!).

Daniel de Lincolia, a 12th century Latin name form
--
Tim McDaniel.   Reply to tmcd at crl.com; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com
is work account.  tmcd at tmcd.austin.tx.us ... is wrong tool.  Never use this.


From: scott at math.csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: New German Name Resource
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 00:38:47 GMT
Organization: Cleveland State University

Thanks to the good offices of the Laurel Queen of Arms, an article
entitled 'Medieval German Given Names from Silesia' is now available
at her Web site at <http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/>; the URL of
the article itself is

        http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/bahlow_v.htm

It's a list of given names found in medieval Silesian records, mostly
from the 14th and 15th centuries.  Both men's and women's names are
represented, though as usual there aren't nearly as many of the
latter.  (They're at the bottom of the file.)

Talan Gwynek


From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Russian Persona
Date: 12 May 1998 18:11:33 -0400
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC

> Can someone give me a starting place for research on a Russian persona?

For your name, you cannot do better than Paul Wickenden of Thanet's
Dictionary of Period Russian Names (http://www.sca.org/heraldry/paul/),
which includes a very fine discussion of the grammar of Russian names
(http://www.sca.org/heraldry/paul/zgrammar.html).  

For more detail, you can also read his "Locative Bynames in Medieval Russia"
(http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/toprus.html) and Predslava
Vydrina's "Russian Personal Names: Name Frequency in the Novgorod
Birch-Bark Letters" (http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/predslava/bbl/).
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord                                         mittle at panix.com


From: Josh Mittleman <mittle at panix2.panix.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Hungarian help
Date: 2 Jul 1998 15:15:11 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC

Brian M. Scott <scott at math.csuohio.edu> wrote:
> Most of the names are a little later than your period, but for names
> the information at
>       http://www.geocities.com/Athens/1336/magyar16.html

> is a good beginning.

There's a second article, on Hungarian women's given names, at
  http://www.geocities.com/Athens/1336/magfem.html

  Arval


From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Medieval Naming articles
Date: 26 Aug 1998 15:48:48 -0400
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC

Recent additions to my medieval names website:

100 Most Popular Men's Names in Early Medieval Ireland
  by Tangywstyl vz. Morgant Glasvryn

Some Scottish Gaelic Feminine Names
  by Arval Benicoeur

Portuguese Names 1350-1450
  by Juliana de Luna
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord                                         mittle at panix.com


From: Andrea Hicks <maridonna at worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Welsh sources needed
Date: 10 Oct 1998 12:17:19 GMT

Thalragond wrote:
> The title says it all.  I am new, and trying to work up a Welsh persona(13th
> Century), but can find precious little information of ANY kind on the matter.
> I am trying to learn about period culture, history, costume, military,
> anything.  All I can find are vague references to Wales in books on English
> culture.  Any help or suggestions are welcome, and online sources are
> especially sought.
> 
> Gwyon ap Garient (if approved!!)

Here are sites that have information on names for SCA use, not just
Welsh.  :)

http://www.us.itd.umich.edu/~ximenez/s.gabriel/docs/

http://www.panix.com/~mittle/SCA/

http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/education.html                Go down
to articles to you contruct Medieval names

The three sites have different content. The Academy of Saint Gabriel's
site has pointers to a subset of the names articles available at my
site, but it also has bibliographies, some how-to articles.   Arval
Benicoeur's site has the largest set of name lists and a full Problem
Names archive.  The SCA site doesn't link to other sites, but it has
some articles -- particularly SCA-rules related articles -- that aren't
available elsewhere. (Thanks Arval!)
-- 
Maridonna Benvenuti 
SCA Arms: 'Per pale sable and Or ten crosses botonny counterchanged.'
SCA Badge: 'Fieldless, a cross botonny per pale sable and Or'.

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	names-msg	Page 37 of 37