names-msg – 3/23/00
Name sources, naming practices.
NOTE: See also the files: names-Irish-msg, names-Norse-msg, names-Scot-art, names-Scot-msg, Scot-fem-nam-lst, names-FAQ.
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From: joshua at paul.rutgers.edu (Josh Mittleman)
Date: 1 Nov 91 16:48:58 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Greetings from Arval!
The gentle from Dragon's Mists asked:
> How does one go about finding a name for oneself?
> Does any one have a good source book they might recommend?
> Are there certain rules about choosing one's name?
I think of the process of choosing one's SCA name as a good introduction to
the SCA. It is a small, easily-defined, and well-limited rsearch project.
You get to do some research, learn something about medieval culture, and
then use the results of your work. This, I think, is the whole purpose of
the SCA.
The best approach is to pick some medieval source, and find a given name
used in it that you like. The most fun is to start with period literature
- Chaucer, Boccaccio, the sagas,Joinville's Chroincles of the Crusades,
etc. Be careful if you are reading mythology like the Eddas, the
Mabinogion, etc., since many of the characters in those works are deities
or allegoric figures, and their names were not used by normal people in the
Middle Ages. In general, try to pick a given name that was used by a real
person in some part of Europe between 600 and 1600.
If you can't find a period work on the time and area that interests you,
you can turn to history books or dictionaries of names. History is good,
since it will date the use of the name. However, many historians anglicize
and modernize names, so you can't always be sure that the form of the name
is one that existed in the Middle Ages. If you use name dictionaries, be
very careful, since most name dictionaries do not indicate which names date
to the Middle AGes and which are modern. A good reference for British
names is E. G. Withycombe, The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian
Names. She gives dated citations of names. That's what you should look
for: dated references. If a book doesn't give dated citations, then it is
useless for SCA purposes.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the modern usage of a name is not
necessarily the medieval usage. Modern English, particularly in the USA,
accepts virtually anything as a name. That wasn't typically true in
medieval Europe. for the most part, the name stock was small and changed
very slowly. Don't make up a name; you will almost certainly end up with
something that is highly unlikely to have been used in period. Some
examples: The use of surnames as given names is a development of the late
17th and 18th centuries. Craig, Bruce, Howard, Norman, and many other
common modern names were only used as surnames in period. The use of
the names of flowers, herbs, and gemstones as girls' names is a modern
development, with a few exceptions. The basic idea is this: Just like
anything else, naming practices have change a lot in the past 1000 years,
and one's modern assumptions about what is a medieval given name are just
as likely to be wrong as one's modern assumptions about what is a medieval
beer, fabric, paint, etc. Best to start off on the right track by choosing
something that is definitely medieval.
Eventually, you'll want to add a surname or byname to your given name, but
you don't need to rush that. Eventually, you'll probably want to register
your name with the College of Arms, to ensure its uniqueness, but you don't
need to rush that, either. The given name is the important part.
Arval.
From: djheydt at garnet.berkeley.edu
Date: 10 May 91 01:51:54 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
In article <9105090014.AA07566 at euler.ucsd.edu.UCSD.EDU> sbloch at euler.ucsd.EDU (Steve Bloch) writes:
>.... Even if you don't do so yourselves, other people
>will start saying "not Hrafnkel Bjornsson the smith, but Hrafnkel
>Bjornsson the bard" ....
In Wales, up to recent times and maybe still, they would get around
similarity of names* by appending the name of the person's trade, as
"Jones the grocer, Jones the smith". Sometimes instead of using the
descriptive noun for the person, they'd use a noun for the person's
place of business or chief distinguishing tool, as "Jones the mill"
(instead of "Jones the miller"), "Jones the train" (instead of "Jones
the engineer"). Which led to the following remark, along about the
time photographer Anthony Armstrong-Jones, who had married Princess
Margaret Rose, was ennobled as the Earl of Snowdon:
"You know Jones the Camera, who became Jones the
Palace? Now he's Jones the Mountain."
_______
*In the sixteenth century or thereabouts, the Welsh were obliged
by the English to use family names instead of patronymics. Mostly
they adapted the patronymics, either by eliding "ap Huw" to "Pugh",
"ap Richart" to "Prichart", etc., or by adding an English possessive
"-s" to the name, e.g. Jones, Williams, Roberts, Richards... This
tended to confuse the English, both because brothers and cousins
could easily have different surnames, and because the total number
of surnames was small. This didn't upset the Welsh any; and indeed
many a man took the name Jones even if his father's name hadn't
been John; and to say "a Jones" was equivalent to saying "a rebel."
Which led to another joke:
There was a census taker who went to a little Welsh
village with instructions to get the name of the head
of each household, and he went up one street and down
the next and at each house he was told the name of the
householder was John Jones. Up and down the little
streets he went, and finally, three-quarters through
the village, he said in disgust, "I give up; every man
in this village is named John Jones!" and went home.
But he was wrong, because at the end of the last street
there lived a man named William Williams.
Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt
(that's Jones)
Province of the Mists djheydt at garnet.berkeley.edu
Principality of the Mists University of California,
Kingdom of the West Berkeley
Date: 25 Jan 92
From: pvisel at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Patrick E Visel)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: The Ohio State University
Gentles of the Rialto
I have been reluctant to intrude upon so noble a gathering,
but I feel the time has come to address you that I may contribute
in some small way, to these discussions. I am called Hasan ibn
'Abd al-Hakim al-Dimashqi, lately crossed this Middle Sea and
resident on these shores till the next sailing season.
I follow the Sufi path and search for knowledge. Indeed I have
found here on this bridge a place where all the sons and daughters
of Adam tread (and a very sturdy bridge it is). For has not the
Prophet (peace be upon him) said "Search for knowledge, even unto
China" (much too far for these feet or this purse to travel)
And so that I may bring light where there is darkness and
clarity where there is confusion (or vice versa :))
(I fear that this may run on so some may wish to part now, I hope
though we may meet again):
In regard to Arabic/Islamic names: It is important to remember
that they are essentially descriptive and much more fluid than
your Frankish names and indeed the name by which I am called often
depends with whom I am talking. A name (kunya) is given at birth
and usually falls into one of three types; a name of a righteous
person mentioned in the Qur'an; -- Ibrahim, Musa, Is.haq (not
Ish.aq), Isma'il, 'Isa (Peace be upon them); a common Arabic
name - Hasan, Muhammad, Ahmad, Jamal, Fatimah; or a name showing
our relationship with he who is exalted - 'Abd... The first form
is familiar to Christians and Jews but in an Arabic tongue. The
second type are all nouns or adjectives in Arabic and have themselves
meanings (a fact when compounded by the lack of capital letters in
Arabic script has caused generations of students of Arabic prose
to pull out their hair and beat their breasts). The third type was
mentioned by my brother 'Abd al-Rahman, but I am inclined to believe
he oversimplified it in his learned discourse.
It is true that 'Abd has a sense of slave (literally possession)
but it is almost never used as a term for an individual. Since the
earliest time it has been used for man's relationship to Allah or
pagan gods. Indeed in the Book of the prophet Daniel, the Aramaic
shows that the third of the three sent into the furnace with Shadrack,
and Meshak was 'Abd aNego. Who this refers to preceisely is now
known only to God but pre-Islamic arabs used the form 'Abd Allah
and pagan arabs used 'Abd al-Manat and 'Abd al-Uzza. In these
present Midlle Ages the form is used almost solelyin such as 'Abd
Allah or 'Abd+ one of the 99 beautiful names of God- 'Abd al-Rahman-
(servant of the Merciful) or 'Abd al-Hakim (slave of the wise, if
you prefer) (anyone interested in these names can e-mail me).
Sometimes the extremists among the sectarians (shiites) use the name
'Abd 'Ali but this is rare and blasphemous.
Further description is then created by use of the nisba (lineage)
built up by use of ibn (or bin) son of or bint- daughter of. Thus
I am Hasan ibn 'Abd al-Hakim ibn Ahmad etc. as much as may be needed
to identify me. One of the satirists described a pompous man by
having him trace his lineage ten generation every time he introduced
himself.
The last identifier is either a local or a tribal name or an
occupation. Thus I am al-Dimashqi (the Damascene) or al-Shamsi
(the Levantine), or al-Talib (the student) or al-Mujallid (the binder-
I am yet just a dabbler). Since being called al-Dimashqi is incredibly
useless in al-Dimashq, there I would be more likely known by my lineage
or occupation.
And if I have not already bored everyone here to tears, I will add
that honorifics are often used as names. Thus Salah al-Din (Saladin)
of the late unpleasantness (or alternatively barbarian invasions :))
is in fact an honorific Pious of Faith, as are most of the names ending
in Din or Dawlah. On a less sublime level it is customay to add or
change ones name after one sires or bears a child. Thus when I sire a
child, say Ahmad, I would take the name Abu Ahmad -father of Ahmad, and
my wife could take the name Umm Ahmad (or more often her daughters)
name. There are exceptions to this rule however, Abu Bakr the first
Caliph was named father of the Camel (Bakr) due to his wealth but now
his name is often given as a kunya.
Again I beg forgiveness for the length of this discourse but anything
less would have been misleading I fear.
Your Servant
Hasan 'Abd al-Hakim al-Dimashqi
Re: Arabic names
Date: 1 Feb 92
From: pvisel at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Patrick E Visel)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: The Ohio State University
In article <1992Feb1.002913.176 at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> pvisel at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Patrick E Visel) writes:
To the gentles of the Rialto Hasan al-Dimashqi sends greetings and Salam.
Always willing to spread the wonders and curiousities of the noble
Arabic tongue, I will attempt to answer Fujimoto's question
>>To the discussion on Arabic names:
>>
>>I have a further question: sometimes I see the term "ar" show up in
>>a name, viz: Abu Bakr Mohamet ibn Zakariyya ar Razi (the scientist we
>>know as Rhazes, the discoverer of antimony and plaster of Paris).
>>Could you explain the "ar"?
>>
>>Fujimoto
(I tried to answer this earlier, but I fear the Jinn took my voice)
Arabic speech tends to flow together more like french than english.
Certain combinations of sounds are thought awkward, or unseemly, and so
the leading consonant is assimilated to the following consonant. This
is most evident in words with the definite article "al-" (the). Before
"r", "t", "th", "sh", "s", "d" , "n" and "z" the "l" (lam) of "al-"
assimilated to the following letter, thus al-Razi is spelled "alif lam"
but is pronounced ar-Razi and Salah al-Din (Saladin) is pronounced
Salah ad-Din.
I hope this clears up the issue. Arabic letters and sounds are
somewhat different from english, french, or latin letters. "Th" is two
letters "th" as in "think" and "Th" as in "This" sometimes rendered
"th" and "dh" and "sh" is a single letter. This means the same word
can be rendered into roman script in many different ways. (consider
how many spellings of Khaddafi there has been in the newspapers).
The "Rh" of Rhazes is (I think) an attempt to reproduce the Arabic
trilled "r".
To all those who welcomed me so graciously to the Rialto after my
last post, my heartfelt thanks.
Your Servant
Hasan 'Abd al-Hakim al-Dimashqi
*************************************************************
* Hasan al-Dimashqi * Patrick Visel *
* Tirnewydd * Ohio State University *
* Middle Marches * Middle East Studies Library *
* * pvisel at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu *
*************************************************************
Date: 12 Jun 92
From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
My Name
Keradwc an Cai asks about the Arabic version of my name. It is
explained, with an entertaining in persona story (not by me), in T.I.
46 p. 32.
Jessica asks "is there a certain way your name is usually pronounced
by the people (including you) who say it most often?"
My lady wife says that I pronounce it Ka Ree A Dok (Cary a
doc--accent on the last syllable). I also respond to Cuh Riya Doc and
Cary Adok (with the accent on the third syllable).
Cariadoc/David
From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Source needed...
Date: 24 Nov 1993 03:40:29 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
In article <2cu5kg$5lp at epas.utoronto.ca>,
Susan Clark <sclark at epas.utoronto.ca> wrote:
>Greetings....
> I am told that there is an onomastic source on Russian names
>written by someone in the SCA. As I have yet to find anything
>
>Cheers!
>Nicolaa/Susan
You may be thinking of "The Compleat Russian Name Book" translated/compiled
by Tatiana Nikolaevna Tumanova (B.J. Gerth). It may be ordered from the
Morsulus Herald, Iulstan Sigwealding (Steven Goldschmidt 877 San Lucas Ave.
Mountain View, CA 94043). If I may be blunt, the book falls in the category
of "better than nothing". It lists "standard modern" forms of names, has
no dates at all, was compiled from books about (relatively) modern practice
and is misleading regarding Russian naming patterns in period (i.e., it
prescribes the "given name/patronymic/surname" formula as the only viable
one). Used in conjunction with the article on period Russian naming
practices by Paul Wickendon of Thanet that appeared in the 1993 Heraldic
Symposium Procedings, it is slightly more useful.
Keridwen f. Morgan Glasfryn
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle at watson.ibm.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Subject: Re: Source needed...
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1993 20:23:48 GMT
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research
Greetings from Arval! Nahum asked:
> What does "onomastic" mean?
"Onamastics" is the science of naming. "Onamastic" is an adjectival form
of that word.
> Russian names don't seem to have changed since period. Some have gone
> out of style, but those were only used by priests anyway.
I do not know much about Russian names per se, Nahum, but I have heard
comments like this about Irish names, Welsh names, Japanese names, etc.,
and they have always turned out to be incorrect. Do you know that this is
so, or are you speculating?
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord mittle at watson.ibm.com
From: mcs at unlinfo.unl.edu (M Straatmann)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Source needed...
Date: 29 Nov 1993 00:06:45 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska--Lincoln
mittle at watson.ibm.com (Arval d'Espas Nord) writes:
>Greetings from Arval! Nahum asked:
>> Russian names don't seem to have changed since period. Some have gone
>> out of style, but those were only used by priests anyway.
>I do not know much about Russian names per se, Nahum, but I have heard
>comments like this about Irish names, Welsh names, Japanese names, etc.,
>and they have always turned out to be incorrect. Do you know that this is
>so, or are you speculating?
>===========================================================================
>Arval d'Espas Nord mittle at watson.ibm.com
I believe what Nahum is talking about is the patronymic construction,
which is prevalent in Russian naming. First names such as Nikolai,
Alexander, Mikhail, Boris, etc.etc.etc.etc. followed by a patronymic
such as Nikolaevich, Alexandrovich, Mikhailovich, etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.
This type of naming is still very much used in Russia today.
What has gone out of style are some of the third names used. There
are many that have become familial names in the modern sense, whereas
they were descriptive or locative in _most_ period usages. Some
aren't even used at all (or sound really off the wall in modern
Russian) I believe this to be what Nahum is referring to. If not, I
hope to hear about it.
In service,
misha
Gospodin Mikhail Nikolaevich Kramolnikov, Fyrdman-Calontir
From: Tim at f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Source needed...
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1993 07:27:08
Scripsit Nicolaa: