soap-msg - 1/12/08 Period soap and soapmaking. Period recipes and recipe sources. NOTE: See also the files: Soapmakng-CMA-art, Lye-Soap-art, candles-msg, camp-showers-msg, herbs-msg, lavender-msg, bathing-msg, perfumes-msg, Medvl-bathng-lnks, Tubd-a-Scrubd-art, Roman-hygiene-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: Lhiannan at f42.n280.z1.fidonet.org (Lhiannan) Date: 14 Feb 94 21:11:00 -0500 Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Craft question from a non-Scadian (soap) Organization: Fidonet:The Castle of the Winds KC Mo {816} 765-1122 (1:280/42.0) -=> Quoting s0499528 at let.rug.nl to All <=- s0> Was there a guild for soapmakers? What size would a typical workshop s0> be? Come to think of it, did the craft exist at all? I assumed it did, s0> but I have no information to work on at all. According to Dennis R. Sherman, in "Domestic Lighting: Candles, Lamps, and Torches in History," The Compleat Anachronist, Vol. 68. Society for Creative Anachronism:Milpitas, CA. 1993: "The Worshipful Company of Tallowchandlers of London was constituted as a guild by letters patent from Henry VI in 1422. ... The tallowchandlers were certainly organized long before they were granted their charter. ... Soap-making was part of the purview of the tallow chandlers by 1509." "in 1545 London authorities ordered that butchers 'that use to sell theyr tallowe to sopemakers' are 'not to sell yt in eny wyse to eny sopemakers upon the perylls that may fall theron,' thereby reserving tallow for candles." These quotes would seem to indicate that there were 'sopemakers' who were not in the chandlers guild, and politics was being played. It doesn't really say whether 'sopemakers' ever had a separate guild, but then the source treatise IS about candles, not soap. From the Bibliography: Monier-Williams, M.F., ed. Records of the Worshipful Company of Tallow Chandlers. London:Cheswick Press, 1897. Monier-Williams, Randall. The Tallow Chandlers of London, vol. 1-4. London:Kaye & Ward. 1970-77. Stanislaus, Ignatius Valerius Stanley. American Soap Maker's Guide; an Up to Date Treatise on the Art and Science of the Manufacture of Soaps, Candles, and .... New York City:Henry Carey Baird & Co., Inc. 1928. s0> What would the soapmaker wear to protect himself against the lye, s0> which apparently was rather aggressive in its unprocessed condition? I s0> suppose glasses are a no-no? For information on soapmaking itself, I'd suggest checking some library books about colonial or pioneer crafts, such as Sturbridge Village, etc. The process hasn't changed much. Good Luck, Lhiannan From: Gretchen Miller Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Craft question from a non-Scadian (soap) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 13:12:47 -0500 Organization: Computer Operations, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Excerpts from netnews.rec.org.sca: 19-Feb-94 Craft question from a non-S.. Beth Appleton at f4229.n124 (618) > Off the top of my head, it seems unlikely that soapmakers would > be a guild. Every housewife had the materials to hand, and only the > poor would be unable to process the stuff. Sure every housewife could make soup appropriate for scrubbing floors, or washing clothes, but that doesn't mean she'd want to apply it to her hands or face. The pretty good smelling stuff was something she was willing to pay for. I vaguely remember some mention of imported Castile Soap being very popular (and very expensive) in Elizabethan England Brief summary on soap from the online encyclopedia here: The ancient Romans spread their knoledge of soapmaking, and in the Middle Ages important centers of soapmaking developed in Spain, France, and England. Given this statement, a soapmakers guild seems likely. toodles, gretchen From: habura at vccnw06.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Craft question from a non-Scadian (soap) Date: 24 Feb 1994 21:28:45 GMT Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY Bubble, bubble, toil and trouble... The fact that a medieval person could have made something at home is not proof that a guild for making it could not have existed. In the only medieval art in which I consider myself well-versed (namely High Middle Ages embroidery), a good chunk of it _was_ done in the home, but there were also guilds of embroiderers in several English cities no later than the 14th century (one 14th c. surviving record is a complaint by two male embroiderers who somehow wound up being admitted as members of the tailor's guild by mistake!) We can also look at some of London's great guilds for confirmation. I'll bet that quite a few people could and did make their own shoes, but that didn't stop the Cordwainers from incorporating. Could a medieval person have laid a stone paving? Yep, but the Pavoirs were a guild anyway. My guess was that a guild could form for any craft where there was a possibility for sales to outstrip the resources of a cottage industry-- embroiderers, weavers, goldsmiths--or where economies of scale made production by professionals cheaper for the consumer than separate home production would be--probably weavers again, glassblowers, bakers. Take a look at your own life. I bake my own bread only if I get a craving for piping hot, perfectly fresh bread. For daily use, I turn to my local bakeries, who produce a good product. On the other hand, purchasing ready-cooked food (restaurants, take-out joints) I do more rarely, because I can do it cheaper and with relatively little effort at home. I almost never make my own clothing, not when I can find a ready-made garment that costs less thjan the materials I would have to purchase to make it at home. I rather suspect that our medieval exemplars made the same cost-benefit calculations. Extending this to soapmaking: Sure, the simple stuff could have been made at home. On the other hand, rendering fat and using lye (do Castile soaps use lye? I've made modern hard soap, which does, but I have no idea what the period methods are) is a pain in the derriere, and would have been a good craft for a guild to coalesce around. Alison MacDermot *Ex Ungue Leonem* From: Philip & Susan Troy Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 21:48:15 -0400 Subject: Re: SC - Cheese recipes Kerridwen wrote: > Not quite cooks related, but does anyone have a source for period soap > recipes? I know there's a soap recipe in Thomas Dawson's "The Second Part of 'The Good Huswifes Jewell' "... G. Tacitus Adamantius From: nweders at mail.utexas.edu (ND Wederstrandt) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 08:06:26 -0500 (CDT) Subject: SC - Soap Just taking the Good Huswife's Jewel back to the library so I have it with me: To make good sope. First you must take half a strike of (asshen?) ashes, and a quart of Lime, then you must mingle both these together, and then must fill a pan full of water and seeth them well, so done, you must take four pound of beastes tallow, and put it into the Lye, and seeth them togther until it be hard. Clare R. St. John From: "Sharon L. Harrett" To: Mark Harris Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 09:41:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: SC - soap and cheese info source I have not yet found a period recipe for basic soap, but there are two "milled soap" recipes in "Delights for Ladies, Sir Hugh Plat,1609" chapter on Sweet powders and ointments. It is in Cariadoc's collection. Ceridwen Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 16:49:21 -0500 From: Wendy Robertson To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Soap (was Re: Medieval Wedding) At 12:50 AM 6/2/97 -0700, Lady Catherine Mcgire said: > I was "surfing" last night and ran into a reference for "Milled >Soap" in the SCA files. Someone had mentioned that it was listed under >"Delights for Ladies" Sir Hugh PLatt 1609 chapter on sweet powders and >oinrments". I used both Carodocs and Alta Vist to search the files but >came up a blank . Can anyone help me, I would like to make some soap to >have at a demo > Lady Katherine Malverin McGuire. I am not familiar with the specific reference to "milled soaps" in the SCA files. However, I have researched soap making, have made soap, and have looked at Sir Hugh Plat's book "Delights for Ladies". In brief, if you would like to make soap (or buy soap commercially available) for washing hands, you should look for a pure olive oil soap. There are several good modern soap making books that can help you learn to make soap -- check your local library. If you are interested in period soap for washing clothing, it will generally also be an olive oil base (canola/rape seed oil is a cheaper (and sometimes legal according to 16th/17th English legislation) alternative). Train oil (ocean mammals, like whale) was always illegal. Tallow was generally used to make candles, not for soap. Milled soap is not period. It is an 18th? century French invention involving grinding up already made soap, mixing scents into it, and then pressing it back into bars. One modern soapmaking book uses the term milling for remelting soap and adding scents etc. when the lye has saponified the oils (and thus is no longer lye and is not caustic), but this is not true milling. I have not seen a reference to milled soap in Plat's book. He does mention soap twice in recipes for removing stains. One calls for a "white, hard Soape", and the other calls for "castill sope". Castile soap is another name for pure olive oil soap. Castile soap is white and hard. It is made with the ashes of plants with a high sodium content so the soap becomes hard. Soap made with potash from hardwoods (as done in England) doesn't get hard. It was sold in pots or tubs. It was also called "black soap". The soap for washing oneself was imported to the north from Spain, Italy, Southern France (and sometimes from the Levant). There were soapmaking guilds in London and Bristol. These guilds made soap for washing clothes. I do not believe that people made their own soap in the Middle Ages. Ailene nic Aedain Shire of Shadowdale, Calontir mailto:wcrobert at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 15:20:18 From: Sheron Buchele/Curtis Rowland To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Medieval Wedding and soap At 12:50 AM 6/2/97 -0700, you wrote: > I was "surfing" last night and ran into a reference for "Milled >Soap" in the SCA files. Someone had mentioned that it was listed under >"Delights for Ladies" Sir Hugh PLatt 1609 chapter on sweet powders and >oinrments". I used both Carodocs and Alta Vist to search the files but >came up a blank . Can anyone help me, I would like to make some soap to >have at a demo Several months back there was a wonderful discussion about soap and at that time, I posted my documentation and a recipe for a fats and lye soap. I think that it should be available in the archives from this most splendid list. If not, if you wish, I will post it again to you privately - so as to not clutter up the bandwidth again! If you wish it, e-mail me privately at foxryde at verinet.com. I haven't looked recently, but there is a Walton home page with lots of info about soap making. I found it using a search from AltaVista. As to period soap: whether the fats and lye bar soap is period is generally agreed. Whether the soap was made at home, as in Colonial days, is subject to great debate. It is generally agreed that there were soap making guilds in period (France, Spain, and England are the ones I am familiar with). Milled soap is soap which is allowed to soponify without any additions - just plain soap. The plain soap is ground up and melted then the fragrance and any additions (herbs, grains, colorants, etc.) are added and the soap is cooled again. This requires less fragrance oils and the additions are less damaged as the harsh soponification reaction is already completed. My suggetion to you, make some soap and have fun. It takes about an evening to make, you cut it up the next day or so, and a couple of weeks to a month to cure. It is great fun and very satisfying. Good luck, Baroness Leonora Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 21:43:40 -0700 From: ladymari at GILA.NET (Mary Hysong) To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Soap (was Re: Medieval Wedding) original post snipped > Castile soap is another > name for pure olive oil soap. Castile soap is white and hard. It is made > with the ashes of plants with a high sodium content so the soap becomes > hard. Soap made with potash from hardwoods (as done in England) doesn't > get hard. It was sold in pots or tubs. It was also called "black soap". Greetings! Having made not only 100% virgin olive oil castile soap, but also 100% other vegetable oil soaps as well as mixed animal and vegetable fat soaps, I can say that they do have differing degrees of hardness. However, since I used the very same can of lye for all of them I do not believe that the source of potash [lye] has anything to do with the hardness of the end product, but rather, the source and type of fat. Beef and mutton tallow make very hard soap also, while pork fat makes a soft soap and if you reclaim kitchen grease with a high content of chicken fat you may end up with 'jelly' soap that never gets hard! I'm not sure about medieval soap types, milled or not ect. but when my soap book comes home I will see if it says anything about it. I do remember a picture of a bar of soap exhibited at some fair or exposition pre-1600, but don't remember if it said if it was milled... Mairi -- Mary Hysong and Curtis Edenfield Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 08:51:55 -0500 From: Wendy Robertson To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Soap At 09:43 PM 8/5/97 -0700, Mary Hysong said: >Greetings! Having made not only 100% virgin olive oil castile soap, but >also 100% other vegetable oil soaps as well as mixed animal and >vegetable fat soaps, I can say that they do have differing degrees of >hardness. However, since I used the very same can of lye for all of >them I do not beleive that the source of potash [lye] has anything to do >with the hardness of the end product, but rather, the source and type of >fat. Beef and mutton tallow make very hard soap also, while pork fat >makes a soft soap and if you reclaim kitchen grease with a high content >of chicken fat you may end up with 'jelly' soap that never gets hard! It is quite true that different kinds of fats with yield a different product (including the hardness of the soap). However, the lye is also very important. Lye that you purchase (such as a can of Red Devil lye) is known by the chemical formula NaOH (sodium hydroxide). However, the lye that you get from leaching hardwood ashes is KOH (potassium hydroxide). KOH is also available commercially (although far less easily). Modern soap making books often include recipes for soft soaps (you know, the kind you can pump from a plastic bottle) -- these soft soap recipes use KOH not NaOH. KOH will never yield a hard bar of soap. (The Pioneers made hard soap with KOH by adding salt (sodium) to the mixture.) The ashes that were leached around the Mediterranean had a high sodium content, and therefore that lye is closer to NaOH. It is for this reason that the olive oil soap of the Mediterranean was hard bars and used for washing people. The olive oil soap made in England was made with KOH and was therefore sold in pots and was used for laundry. In this case, since the oil is the same, the difference is in the lye. >I'm not sure about medieval soap types, milled or not ect. but when my >soap book comes home I will see if it says anything about it. I do >remember a picture of a bar of soap exhibited at some fair or exposition >pre-1600, but don't remember if it said if it was milled... I am unfamiliar with this picture and would be VERY interested to see it. Please post the citation when you get a chance. Wendy Robertson mailto:wcrobert at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 14:25:13 -0500 From: mary boulet To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Soap (was Re: Medieval Wedding) Beef and mutton tallow make very hard soap also, while pork fat > makes a soft soap and if you reclaim kitchen grease with a high content > of chicken fat you may end up with 'jelly' soap that never gets hard! Having made soap from both beef tallow and pork tallow, I can attest that pork tallow will produce a soap every bit as hard as beef tallow. In both cases, commercial lye was used. Perhaps the difference lies more in the proportion of fat to lye, or in the type of fat (location on the animal). In the case of the pork based soap, the tallow was from the jowl of a hog. In the case of the beef based soap, the tallow was from the supermarket, and, hence, of unknown derivation. The pork based soap has minimal sudsing action, but works well in solution for such activities as felt making. I am not so brave as to actually use it for laundering. The beef based soap gets used around home for hand washing. Myra Nedlesaeng, Calontir Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 13:52:35 -0500 From: Wendy Robertson To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Soap At 04:38 PM 8/7/97 U, Mark Harris said: >Ailene nic Aedain said: >> Tallow was generally used to make candles, not for soap. > >I respectfully disagree with this statement. Thank you for clarifying my unfortunately very unclear statement. Tallow was definitely used for soap in the Middle Ages. The earliest ingredient specific mentions of soap (Pliny, Mappae Clavicula, and possibly Capitulare de Villes vel Curtis Imperialibus) all include tallow. (Mappae Clavicula and the Capitulare also include oil). However, my belief (granted, without a lot of supporting evidence) is that tallow was generally reserved for candles. Making soap out of it was an exception. Olive oil seems to have been the preferred fat for soaps. I would enjoy hearing evidence to the contrary of my hypothesis. >and this from another message: > >>>>>>>>> >Just taking the Good Huswife's Jewel back to the library so I have it with >me: > >To make good sope. > >First you must take half a strike of (asshen?) ashes, and a quart of Lime, >then you must mingle both these together, and then must fill a pan full of >water and seeth them well, so done, you must take four pound of beastes >tallow, and put it into the Lye, and seeth them togther until it be hard. ><<<<<<< Thank you for this reference!! It is the first recipe for soap making meant for a general audience that I am aware of. >Considering that this book was written by a merchant to instruct his wife, >I think this also refutes the statement: > >>I do not believe that people made their own soap in the Middle Ages. Are you sure the book was written as specific instruction for his wife? I know Le Menagier de Paris and Gervase Markham's books were written for the gentlemen's wives, but it was not clear to me from looking at the title page of the book that this was written for his wife. There seem to be quite a few cookbooks etc. written/compiled by both men and women starting in the late 16th century and through the 17th century. I have looked at more of the 17th century books (because they are in print here, not in an arcane shelving system for microfilm that I just figured out today), but Dawson's book seems to fit this sort of pattern rather than the specific instructions for an individual. This is the first evidence I now know of for soap being made in individual households, not by specialists. However, although 1597 is certainly period, I do not consider it to be part of the Middle Ages. I will stand by my statement, hoping to encourage someone to prove me wrong. The reason I believe soap was made by specialists is that there are no other recipes that I know of meant for a general audience. (Mappae Clavicula is mostly specialized alchemical recipes. This connection with soap doesn't surprise me because Jabir ibn Hayyan (also known as Geber) repeatedly mentions soap as an active means of cleansing (Ciba Review 56)). The lack of recipes/instructions in sources such as Le Menagier de Paris &, Tusser, as well as other recipe books from the late 16th/17th century, and the lack of pictures of soap making lead me to believe people did not generally make their own soap. Some of these sources include recipes for special handwashing water or instructions for cleaning textiles - methods which rarely involve soap. In addition, soap making was done by specialists early on, according to the Capitulare. There was even a type of soapmakers guild in Naples as far back as 599. Even in Jerusalem in the 16th century, where olive oil and barilla (a plant that yield high sodium ashes needed for hard soap) were plentiful, people didn't make their own soap. Instead, they paid the soap making facilities and the workers to make their soap, which they would then sell or use. The chemical reaction in soapmaking was not really understood until the late 18th or early 19th century. This may have slowed down how quickly people started making their own soap. In addition, there was a short lived soap monopoly in 17th century England. Such a monopoly would not have been possible if many people made their own soap. If anyone has evidence to add support or refute this, please share it! Ailene nic Aedain Shire of Shadowdale, Calontir mailto:wcrobert at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 09:06:39 -0500 From: Wendy Robertson To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Soap At 10:10 AM 8/9/97 -0700, Mary Hysong said: >What comes to mind is this: Olives are native to the >Mediterranian and are the basic source of oil used for cooking as well >as lighting [Roman oil lamps spring to mind]. Farther north [Europe, >British Isles, Norway, ect] one sees more cattle and pigs[oh and sheep >too] which produce a lot of fat that could be used for these things. So >if you lived say in England, would you have imported olive oil soap or >would you have locally made tallow or lard soap. Yes, you would have imported olive oil soap or olive oil to make soap if you lived in England. I also was surprised when I found this out. The Bristol and London Soapmakers Guilds preferred to make soap out of olive oil. Other oils were viewed as inferior. Sometimes rapeseed/canola oil was allowed. Other oils were not allowed by Guild standards and would be confisicated when discovered. These rules do indicate that oils other than olive oil were used, but they were not the _preferred_ oil. And, as previously quoted from the CA on domestic lighting, "in 1545 London authorities ordered that butchers 'that use to sell theyr tallowe to sopemakers' are 'not to sell yt in eny wyse to eny sopemakers upon the perylls that may fall theron,' thereby reserving tallow for candles." This does not indicate soap was never made from tallow, but it does show that tallow was _preferred_ for candles. I think tallow was preferred for candles because, as you stated, it was more common in the North. Candles were also more important in the short days of winter in the North. I do not think soap was as important a product, therefore tallow was to be used for candles. For more informaltion, see: Proceedings, minutes and enrolments of the Company of soapmakers, 1562-1642; edited by Harold Evan Matthews. -- Printed for the Bristol Record Society <1940> (Bristol Record Society's publications. v. 10) >Also to remark on the >lack of recipes and illustrations of soap making: perhaps it was SO >common that everybody did it, so nobody wrote about it [nobody wrote any >how to spin or weave treatsie either, to my knowledge]. However, there are plenty of depictions of women spinning and people weaving. An interesting source about rural life in the 16th century is: Tusser, Thomas, 1524?-1580. Five hundred points of good husbandry, as well for the champion or open country, as for the woodland or several; together with A book of huswifery. Being a calendar of rural and domestic economy, for every month in the year; and exhibiting a picture of the agriculture, customs, and manners of England, in the sixteenth century. By Thomas Tusser ... -- A new ed., with notes ... a glossary, and other improvements. By William Mavor ... -- London, Lackington, Allen, and co., 1812. Tusser discusses all sorts of activities in rural life. He lists month by month the major work for men (and sometimes women). He has a separtate poem stating what a housewife should do every day. Spinning is among her tasks. Weaving is mentionned as well (I think in the fall as the time the yarn is sold to the weaver). No where is soapmaking mentionned. >Or perhaps the >common, general class of folks did without or used plant sources...while >the more well to do had it or imported it. I agree completely with this hypothesis. Ashes, sand, fuller's earth, soapwort, and stale urine were used as various cleaning substances. Ailene nic Aedain Shire of Shadowdale, Calontir mailto:wcrobert at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 12:26:52 -0700 From: Lady Catherine Mcgire To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: soap plants Wendy Robertson wrote: > At 12:51 PM 8/12/97 -0500, kathleen keeler said: > >Soapwort has "bouncing bet" as an American common name and is both a > >considerable weed and sometimes an ornamental in North America. > > > >And > >saponins are found naturally in Yucca roots--Agavaceae, the pointy-leaved > >things of the plains and deserts, thoroughly > >American plants, but the Americas are Period for a century or so. > >(Native Americans used them for washing.) > > Have you ever tried using any of these plants to wash with? I was > wondering how well they work, how easy they are to wash with etc. > > Ailene nic Aedain > Shire of Shadowdale, Calontir > mailto:wcrobert at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Yucca "sudes" wre very interesting. The Navaho use them to wash the hair of the dead to prepar them for burrial. I have tried to wash cloths in yucca on a camping trip(didn't bring enough soap) and while they got the shirt "clean" they left a slippery residue that took several machanical washing with comerical detergent to wash out. I added some soap wort ot my last batch of soap. I'll test it as soon as it cures and post the result. Its supposed to increase the lather you get from home made soap. Lady Katherine Malveren McGuire Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:37:06 -0500 (CDT) From: kathleen keeler To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: RE: soap plants > Have you ever tried using any of these plants to wash with? I was > wondering how well they work, how easy they are to wash with etc. I have only, with some trepidation, started growing soapwort (Saponaria). Its an out-of-control weed in Boulder CO, where I was on sabbatical, I hope it won't do that well here in Lincoln NE. [Of course, in Boulder the landowners would've let me gather it.] We tried Yucca casually in an ecology class I taught some years ago. We peeled the "rind" off the tap root of a dead plant. The heart of the root made a lather but we didn't do much testing. The lather was sufficiently less than we're used to in shampoos that we weren't much impressed, but it was clearly "soapy". Chipping at your "soap" with a knife to get lather was also a strange experience: we figured a fresh cut would release the saponins.. That was Yucca glauca in western Nebraska. By the time you get to Phoenix there are a _lot_ of other species. Agnes Mag Mor, Calontir kkeeler at unlinfo.unl.edu Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:30:51 -0500 From: Wendy Robertson To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: RE: soap At 11:09 AM 6/3/97 -0700, Lady Catherine Mcgire said: > I called it >"lye" soap in reference to what my sources called soap made with "Lye >and a fat source, not to confuse it with soap made from plant sources >without a caustic element. I am sorry I misunderstood you. If I am now understanding corectly, you were comparing the substance made from fats and alkali (known variously as "soap" or "lye soap") with those plants that have saponins and are therefore used for cleaning. For the benefit of others on the list, I will quote some sections from the Encyclopaedia Britannica (1991) to explain the difference. "Saponins--chemical substances that produce soapy lathers--are present in the fruits, seeds, and other tissues of many members of the family Sapindaceae; genera such as Sapindus, Aphania, and Paullinia are used in tropical countries as soap substitutes." (vol.13, p.691) Soapwort (Saponaria officinalis) is one source of saponins and was commonly used in the Middle Ages. "Hot caustic alkali solution, such as caustic soda (sodium hydroxide), acts on natural fats or oils, such as tallow or vegetable oil, to produce sodium fatty acid salt (soap) and glycerin (or glycerol). This saponification reaction is the basis for all soapmaking." "Sodium hydroxide is employed as the saponification alkali for most soap now produced. Soap may also be manufactured with potassium hydroxide (caustic potash) as the alkali." (vol.21, p.262) What we generally call lye today is "caustic soda" or sodium hydroxide (NaOH). The other type of lye of which I am aware is "caustic potash" or potassium hydroxide (KOH). Leaching hardwoods for lye yields caustic potash. Leaching seaside plants, such as barilla, yields a higher proportion of "caustic soda". Both types of lye were used in period. >From the above definition of soap from the Encyclopaedia Britannica, it is clear that an alkali (i.e. lye) is necessary for the chemical reaction of true soap. Ailene nic Aedain Shire of Shadowdale, Calontir mailto:wcrobert at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 09:07:04 -0500 From: Wendy Robertson To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Castile Soap This is a good question. I have not found clear information on this. I will first review the earliest definite references to ingredients I know of: 1. Pliny the elder (who died in pompeii) mentions soap made of tallow (especially goat's tallow) and ashes used as a hair pomade by the Gauls. 2. The Capitulare de Villis vel Curtis Imperialibus (c794) mentions soap, tallow, and oil together; it is not clear whether it was made out of one or both ingredients 3. Mappae Clavicula (9th c, maybe earlier - north of the Alps) has recipes for both olive oil and tallow In less scholarly sources I have read: The Phoenicians (I think) made soap of cassia oil and barilla (I would love to be able to find information on this); I have not found any refernce to this in scholarly sources, which makes me very suspicious of the information Soap works were found at Pompeii (I have not found evidence for this and given that Pliny mentioned soap as a foreign item and died at Pompeii, and that Pompeii was not really an industrial city, I doubt this) Most early (pre 1000) references to soap that I am aware of come from Southern Europe. It was known to the Anglo Saxons, but I don't know how widely available it was. A leechbook states "add thereto of old soap a spoon full, if thou have it". This implies it was not always available. It also suggests the Anglo-Saxons had a soft soap, made of potash from hardwoods, not barilla. Soap made from olive oil is nicer than soap made from tallow, in my opinion. Olive oil was readily available in Southern Europe where I have found most early reference to soap. I know olive oil was known by people in Northern Europe by the 9th century. The manuscript probably has it's origins from southern Europe, date unknown. However, the full transalation of Mappae clavicula is from the 12th century. The soap recipes do not appear in the portions surviving before this, so it may have been added later. Not a very good answer, but it's the best I have found so far. At 11:00 PM 8/15/97 -0600, John or Fraya Davis said: >I have thoroughly enjoyed the discussion on soap lately and have added much >of it to my alchives. I would like more information regarding "castile >soap". I have read, with limited resources available and little >documentation, that soap made with olive oil, known as castile soap, was >made in ancient Rome--pre SCA. Can someone help me with facts regarding >this: When the first olive oil soap was documented, where it was from, when >it began being used in Europe and the Isles? This would be most appreciated >as I am planning to teach it to our populace very shortly. > >Gillean Fhlaitheamhail Wendy Robertson mailto:wcrobert at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 21:56:34 +0600 From: james mabrey To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Soap Making Article Gillian: I enjoyed your article on soapmaking very much. Well done. A few things we have found in our soapmaking - If you want to hurry up removing your soap from the molds, after the 48 hours or so of hardening, you can put it in the freezer overnight. It pops right out of the molds. My mother's castilian, which of course is strictly olive oil for fat, does not have the problem with the oil coming to the top after pouring in the mold. I'll check with her for details. We have always placed our additives directly into the initial soap mixture, just prior to pouring. (essential oils, pumice, herbs, etc.). I have not noticed any problems in the final products. If one wants to make a soap with a higher content of goats milk (or other milk), replace some of the water with a equal amount of milk in the initial recipe. The temperature is really important here! If it is too high you will carmelize the milk sugars. it doesn't hurt the quality of the soap, it just makes it dark. We have had good success with varying quantities of milk. I guess we could afford experimentation, as we have a seemingly endless supply of goats milk. Bronwyn nic Dougal Calontir Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:24:41 -0400 From: "Elyse C. Boucher" <70521.3645 at compuserve.com> To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: SCA-ARTS digest 1144 Greeting from the humble scrib Merouda Pendray. Looking for soap references after Pliny and before Strassburg? Try Mappe Clavicula, available in translation from the American Philosophical Society, which exists in various copies made in the 9th-12th centuries. Excellent resource for a whole varietis of subjects, as it is a collection of receipts for a wide range of things, like seseme seed candy, construction of battering rams, flaming arrows, scribal materials, and....soap. :-) I'm at work, can't recollect the whole cite off the top of my head, but I do have the refernce in my online biblio, in the instructions subset, at http://www.geocities.com/merouda/aboutbib.html. Your Typo-makin' Servant, Merouda Date: 9 Jun 00 10:36:39 EDT From: Nora Siri Bock To: Subject: Re: Frankincense & Smells >>OED online, look up 'sope', you will find direct quotes.<< Not to quibble, but "sope" was first mentioned in the Old Testament. Sorry, but I didn't write down the specific reference. It's been debated ever since whether it specifically meant "soap" or referred to a soap-like substance from vegetation, i.e. soapwort, soapbark or any saponin-containing plant. The Greeks and Romans didn't use hard soap, but a stringy liquid mass, origin unknown. They also used oils and scrapers to remove dirt from the body. The first use of hard soap is attributed to the Gauls, sometime around 1000-1100. I've yet to see an original reference to soap . Early useage is also attributed to the Arabs, and, of course, Castile, Spain. Unfortunately, I don't read Latin, so I can't read the available mss of Pliny and Dioscorides. Following it was "Frankish" soap and "Marseilles" . Nora Bock Siri bint Saadia Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 03:54:00 +0100 From: TG Subject: Re: SC - manual ? #4, #5 << Now, i can't guarantee that Chypre as i know it dates back to the time of this manual, but it would be something to look into... So the Chipre soap could be Chypre scented soap. Or maybe it's a soap imported from or imputed to be from Cyprus... >> There are several handbooks for merchants of spices and drogues of the 14th and 15th centuries. From the list of products given in the Gual Camarena article (1964) I take it, that "ensens" (incense) or "sabÛ de Xipre" (Cyprus soap) are mentioned or described in Italian and Catalan merchant manuals of the 14th and 15th centuries. Thus, Cyprus soap seems to have been kind of a standard product of a 15th century merchant of the iberian peninsula. In 1981, Miguel Gual Camarena published a transcription of this text, and it might be helpful to look what this text (and the other ones of this type) says about "sabÛ de Xipre" and the other ingredients. Thomas (The following references are gathered from the Gual Camarena article of 1964; the information about his transcription is from the Copac database: - -- Gual Camarena, Miguel: Un manual Catal·n de mercaderÌa (1455; Libre de conexenses de spicies, e de drogues e de avissaments de pessos, canes e massures de diverses terres). In: Anuario de Estudio Medievales 1 (Barcelona 1964) 431-450. - -- Gual Camarena, Miguel (ed.): El primer manual hispanico de mercaderia (siglo XIV). Barcelona 1981 (Anuario de estudios medievales, Anejos 10). - -- Pegolotti, Fr.B.: La pratica della mercatura. Ed. A. Evans. Cambridge, Mass. 1936. Reprint New York 1970. - -- Sapori, Arm.: La cultura del mercante medievale italiano. Florenz 1955. - -- Uzzano, Giov. di Antonio da: La pratica della mercatura (1442). In: G.F. Pagnini della Ventura: Della decima e di varie altre gravezze imposte dal comune di Firenza, della moneta e della mercatura de'Fiorentini, fino al secolo XVI. Vol. IV. Lissabon 1766. - -- Borlandi, Aurora (ed.): Il manuale di mercatura di Saminiato de'Ricci (1396). ???. - -- Borlandi, Fr. (ed.): El libro di mercatantie et usanze de'paesi [ca. 1458; attr. a Giorgio di Lorenzo Chiarini]. Turin 1936. - -- Cessi, R./ Luzzatto, G. (eds.): Tarifa zoË noticia dy pexi e mexure di luogi e tere che s'adovra marcadantia per el mondo. Venedig 1925.) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 20:52:32 -0400 From: johnna holloway To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Soap Sue Clemenger wrote: > Soap....I'm going with some (relatively) modern recipes, and using all > the modern safety precautions (I've got a friend who was burned with > lye, and the scar is NOT pretty, nor is the description she sent me of > her skin bubbling and turning black....). I've got _no_ period > references, other than some anectdotal (un-footnoted, etc.) stuff in the > introductory section of a couple of books. One reference in a class > handout to "castile" soap, in a recipe apparently taken from Plat's > _Delights for Ladies_ (anyone on this list know the dates for that, by > the way?). > Anyone out there have any sources on period soap recipes, references, > etc.? (besides the Florilegium, of course ).> --Maire ------------------------------------------------------------------- Platt or Plat is a 1600? for the earliest edition, according to my notes. That edition is not reproduced, but the 1602 edition and the 1608 and 1609 editions are. The 1948 Fussell edited edition is the 1609 edition. There are editions going up to 1656. Soap mentions are found in The English Countrywoman by G.E. and K.R. Fussell. 1953, 1981,1985. Also see Lost Country Life by Dorothy Hartley, 1979. And a one with recipes that is practical, if not historic, is entitled: Secrets of the Still by Grace Firth. EPM Publications of McLean, Virginia published it in 1983. She covers soap in a couple of pages, but also covers making creams, oils, and stillroom products using stills. It's one of the only books that I know of that covers use of stills for home use. I should have some other references, but I shall have to dig them up. Johnnae llyn Lewis Johnna Holloway From: David Friedman Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Mediaeval Things to Do with Old Oil? Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 23:09:09 -0800 "Mark S. Harris" wrote: > Greetings from Stefan li Rous, > > alchem at en.com (James Koch) wrote: > > Robert Uhl wrote in message > > > Seeing how easy it is to make soap, today I ran to various stores and > > > procured molds in various shapes, essential oils of lemon and geranium, > > > some fresh lye and some almond oil. Easy Christmas gifts this year. > > > > > > Oh yeah: the cooking oil _won't_ go into the gift bars. > > > > > So now your problem is "Medieval Things to Do with Old Glycerin?" > > Glycerin and rosewater are a possibility. There is something > > interesting I have read. Soap is supposedly an invention of the > > middle ages. Apparently the stuff didn't exist during classical > > times. > > > > > Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist) > > Well, that is what I thought several years ago. But some opposing info > has come out. It may be that the Gauls introduced soapmaking to the > Romans. They didn't necessarily use it for personal bathing though, even > if they had it. A little googling gives me: --- A soap-like material found in clay cylinders during the excavation of ancient Babylon is evidence that soapmaking was known as early as 2800 B.C. Inscriptions on the cylinders say that fats were boiled with ashes, which is a method of making soap, but do not refer to the purpose of the "soap." Such materials were later used as hair styling aids. Records show that ancient Egyptians bathed regularly. The Ebers Papyrus, a medical document from about 1500 B.C., describes combining animal and vegetable oils with alkaline salts to form a soap-like material used for treating skin diseases, as well as for washing. --- How reliable the source is I don't know. -- David/Cariadoc www.daviddfriedman.com Edited by Mark S. Harris soap-msg Page 17 of 17