p-privies-msg - 4/17/08 Period privies. Period toilet paper. bum-wipes. NOTE: See also the files: 12thC-Hole-art, bathing-msg, p-hygiene-msg, perfumes-msg, Perfumes-bib, incense-msg, Man-d-Mujeres-art, Tubd-a-Scrubd-art. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu () Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period toilet papers? Date: 8 Apr 1993 16:17:41 GMT Organization: University of California, Berkeley asgds at acad2.alaska.edu writes: > I was recently talking to someone about doing an as period as possible >5 day hike and camp out. And the subject of toilet paper and it's period >equivilents came up. Well, what did they wipe their bums with in period. In monasteries, straw. Out in the woods, probably leaves (chimpanzees do this sometimes). In the desert, sand. And anywhere, with your _left hand._ Then you eat with your right hand only. Period etiquette which as I understand it still holdes good in Islamic countries. Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt Mists/Mists/West UC Berkeley Argent, a cross forme'e sable cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu From: timsmith at oasys.dt.navy.mil (Timothy Smith) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period toilet papers? Date: 8 Apr 93 18:39:42 GMT Organization: The David Taylor Model Basin Poklon k Rialtogorod ot Timofeya Ivanovichya! asgds at acad2.alaska.edu writes: > I was recently talking to someone about doing an as period as possible >5 day hike and camp out. And the subjuect of toilet paper and it's period >equivilents came up. Well, what did they wipe their bums with in period. It's been years since I read it, but there's a whole chapter in Rabelais' _Gargantua and Pantagruel_ on what the giant Gangantua tried in his quest for the perfect bum-wipe. Whole sheep, oxhides and fir trees (NB: direction vector important!) were some of the more memorable suggestions. If you've got a strong stomach and unsplittable sides, I can heartily recommend this period and ribald classic. Dosvedanya, Timofei Ivanovitch Ponte Alto Atlantia --- Tim Smith --- timsmith at oasys.dt.navy.mil ---- (301)227-1611 --- ----- Code 1522, David Taylor Model Basin, Bethesda, MD 20084 ----- Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: n9110536 at henson.cc.wwu.edu (W. Douglas West) Subject: Re: Period toilet papers? Organization: Western Washington University Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1993 20:16:31 GMT asgds at acad2.alaska.edu writes: > I was recently talking to someone about doing an as period as possible >5 day hike and camp out. And the subjuect of toilet paper and it's period >equivilents came up. Well, what did they wipe their bums with in period. I have an Old Farmer's Almanac, which I'll quote from when I get home, that has an article on this subject. From memory comes corn cobs soaked in a rain barrel and mussel shells. ( Of course, being the OFA, they also refer to the old mainstay - the Sears & Roebuck Catalogue. ) They also have the date that the first "toilet paper" was introduced. I don't remember the date, but the company was the London Perforated Paper Company. More later. (St.) George Slade the Dragoon Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: tbarnes at silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes) Subject: Re: Period toilet papers? Organization: Indiana University Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1993 22:31:02 GMT I have read in Bishop's The American Heritage Book of the Middle Ages (a moderately good coffee table book, edited by a very good medievalist) that people used a sort of a scraper or "gompf stick" that was kept in a container by the privy, at least in the high Middle Ages. Modern toilet paper is a late 19th C. American invention. According to archeological finds from Yorvik the Scandinavian settlers there used moss. They have found moss impregnated with excrement in privies they have excavated (Ahhh, the not unmixed joys of archeology! :). Given that the concept of a 5 day hike for pleasure is a very modern concept, why not go with the modern stuff. Leaves are a really crummy substitute. Lothar \|/ 0 From: haslock at rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period toilet papers? Date: 8 Apr 1993 23:47:38 GMT Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation - DECwest Engineering There is evidence that the Irish used moss. (Frank Mitchell _The Shell Guide to Reading the Irish Landscape_ ). The is no reference that I have found that indicates one handed eating. Instead, I have found numerous references to fastidious washing, napkins and chafing dishes. Did the folk reknowned for using the left hand for wiping and the right for eating lack the ingredients for making or using soap? Fiacha Aquaterra, AnTir From: PRIEST at vaxsar.vassar.EDU (CAROLYN PRIEST-DORMAN) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Period Toilet Papers? Date: 9 Apr 1993 11:28:26 -0400 Unto the Fishyfolk of the Rialto, greeting from Thora Sharptooth! The excavations at Viking Age York (England) include some sites that were latrines in the ninth through eleventh centuries. In addition to intestinal parasites and wooden carved toilet seats, the digs revealed many scraps of cloth--both linen and wool--that may have been used as toilet paper rather than having been discarded bits of clothing and the like. However, the most likely possibility according to the specialists is that the many discarded locks of sheep's wool found in these areas were used as toilet paper. Photos of some of these extant locks in Penelope Walton's TEXTILES, CORDAGE AND FIBRE FROM 16-22 COPPERGATE suggest that they may have been used pretty much as sheared from the sheep--i.e., not washed clean of their lanolin (and other substances) first. **************************************************************************** Thora Sharptooth Frosted Hills East Kingdom Carolyn Priest-Dorman Poughkeepsie, NY priest at vassar.edu **************************************************************************** From: hjfeld at acs.bu.edu (harold feld) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period toilet papers? Date: 9 Apr 93 17:44:56 GMT Organization: Boston University, Boston, MA, USA haslock at rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock) writes: >There is evidence that the Irish used moss. (Frank Mitchell _The Shell Guide >to Reading the Irish Landscape_ ). > >The is no reference that I have found that indicates one handed eating. >Instead, I have found numerous references to fastidious washing, napkins and >chafing dishes. > >Did the folk reknowned for using the left hand for wiping and the right for >eating lack the ingredients for making or using soap? > > Fiacha > Aquaterra, AnTir The Talmud (in which all wisdom is contains) relate that our sages of blessed memory used stones. There is much discussion of permitted sizes that one may carry on sabbath (since anything small enough to fall outside the prohibition on carrying will be too small to be useful). My appologies, but I cannot recall how the matter concluded. Out of curiousity, how oes your culture dispose of its waste? In our culture, one must not soil the camp or dwelling place, since we are a holy people (Dueteronomy). Alas, the only solution in cities is to flush the stuff through the sewers and out of the city. For this reason, it is forbidden to study Torah when walking in a city street, as such a place is not suitable. I have heard that the Franks actually allow their waste water to mix with their drinking water. Is this rumor true, or just one more story from abroad? Do they not know that such a thing is injurious to ones health and attracts demons? (Talmud Pesachim). Mar Yaakov HaMizrachi (who will get tired of it soon, but is reveling in it for now) Organization: The American University - University Computing Center Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1993 18:31:40 EDT From: John A. Jordan Ii. Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: re: Period Toilet Paper In addition to hay-balls there was also the gomph-stick. A carved stick (one would hope that it was sanded too) kept in a container next to the privy. I think that this was a late-period development. Check Francis Gies "Life in a Medieval Castle". Jester of Anglesea From: TALLAN at flis.utoronto.CA (David Tallan) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: left hand (was re: toilet paper Date: 8 Apr 1993 21:28:09 -0400 Dorothea seems to suggest that a left hand was an acceptable substitute throught the time and space covered by the SCA. I would like to point out that a fifteenth century English book of courtesy suggests that this is not so when the servant is carefully instructed to serve the lord *exclusively* with the left hand. (Exact citation available upon request). This caused a reat deal of mirth in our local group as we wondered about such a servant serving an muslim gentle at an SCA feast. In fact, I can not remember of ever reading anything in Western European primary sources that would indicate such a use for the left hand. Was this just an extrapolation from the Arabs, or is there some fascinating primary source material that someone could point me towards. David Tallan (who, as Thomas Grozier, when he has finished drawing up the apprenticeship contract, will always serve his master with his left hand, for so he was taught) -------------------------------------------------------------------- David Tallan (tallan at flis.utoronto.ca) snail: 42 Camberwell Rd. Toronto ON M6C 3E8 From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: wiping buns Date: 7 Apr 1994 17:27:19 GMT Organization: University of California, Berkeley I remember reading about a case in a monastery (sorry, can't remember the details of time or place) in which a bishop's envoy was searching for evidence of corruption, and he took up a station in the latrine in the middle of the night, waiting for people to come in and be corrupt so he could discover them. But before this could happen, the Abbot heard about it and came to the latrine himself, and finding the envoy there, offered him a wisp of straw. As if to say, "Oh, is that what you were here for? Not spying, but merely answering Nature's call? Of COURSE. Proceed, by all means." So it would seem that straw was used in some times and places in period. Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt Mists/Mists/West UC Berkeley Argent, a cross forme'e sable djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu From: tip at lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: wiping buns Date: 7 Apr 1994 20:01:51 GMT Organization: Department of Chemistry jeffs at math.bu.EDU (Jeff Suzuki) wrote: > >One might infer that people wiped their bums before 1600 in spite of a > >lack of evidence to that effect. > > Actually, there is evidence to that effect; at least, the Romans had a > thing (I'm not sure what it was called --- it was a towel on a stick, > basically) that was used for that purpose. I assume that we know that > it was used for that purpose based on a, er, scatological analysis... > > Tio Oh yes... one of my prized possesions is just such a bum-wipe. A few years ago a close friend was working on a rescue archeological site near Hadrians wall near Vindolanda. The main prize was the foundations of a building, it's midden heap, and a cess pit, dating from 73-130 CE. Because it was a rescue dig, a lot of small stuff was being overlooked. There was a tacit understanding that if the volunteers wanted to dig around in the tailings after hours, they could keep whatever they found, as long as they promised to turn anything significant over to the site archeologist. Some of the things my friend found included a lot of pottery shards, a few nails, the bowl of a broken spoon (which was turned over), and a number of scraps of woven cloth. There were a lot of these scraps in the cess pit, and they tended to measure about 5" by 7". There was evidence they were torn from larger pieces of cloth, and not cut. The weave is a simple 4 harness twill weave, made from both linen or wool. The colors or dyes did not survive the long immersion in the less than lovely material in the pit. From the evidence of roughly uniform size, reminiscent of two-sheets of modern bum-wipe, distribution, etc... these bits of cloth were surmised to be bum-wipes. Although these sheets may originally have been smeared with feces, it was impossible to distinquish direct smearing from the effects of long emersion in a fecal-soup. I won't go through the story of how I came to possess my bum-wipe, but let it suffice to say that the "spirits" were invoked. It has since been washed according to BM standards for cleaning and preservation of textiles, and laid between two linen support sheets and encased in two sheets of acid free poster board, and lives in a safe deposit box. I find it amusing to think that nearly two millenia ago some person smeared feces on this rag and cast it in a cess pit, and now it is a treasured artifact worthy of sitting next to my deeds and family jewelry. Of course, some people have said that my family jewels are about as valuable as a used bum-wipe, but they are not really being nice. Tom, speaking mundanely for Thomas Ignatius Perigrinus From: dickeney at access.digex.net (Dick Eney) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: wiping buns Date: 7 Apr 1994 20:02:51 -0400 Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA See Rabelais' _Gargantua & Pantagruel_ for a more than exhaustive catalog of methods for carrying out this sort of personal hygiene. R's conclusion was that the best means was using the neck of a live goose, and indeed he conjectured that the happiness of the heroes in the Isles of the Blest was in havilng a sufficient supply of these useful birds for all their needs. "There is nothing that is not a fit subject for scholarship". |-- Vuong Manh (dickeney at access.digex.com) Storvik, Atlantia | |"Everything difficult becomes easier with chocolate!" | Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: tbarnes at silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes) Subject: Re: Documentaion Organization: Indiana University Date: Thu, 7 Apr 1994 16:39:24 GMT sbloch at ms.uky.edu (Stephen Bloch) writes: >Ferret wrote: > >Yes, the rich (and literate) were a minority group in the Middle Ages. >Yes, basing the eating habits of the majority on their recipes is silly -- >BUT IT'S THE ONLY THING WE'VE GOT. Ain't necessarily so. There are also references to various foods in literary works, and archeological evidence of foodstuffs. This isn't recipies, but a good archeologist can tell if a bone had the meat hacked off of it, and whether the bone was boiled, burned, and/or broken open for the marrow. A pig's femur that has been cut off in the middle of the bone, had the meat boiled off of it, and then thrown into a midden is going to look very different from a pig's femur that was butchered raw, cracked open for the marrow and then thrown into the fire. For the strong of stomach, there is a field of archeology that studies coprolites - dried or preserved human feces. A great deal of information about what people ate, and what sort of parasites they had can be derived from these sources since seeds, parasite eggs and grain hulls pass intact through the gut. (BTW, in case you're wondering what the Vikings used as toilet paper. This field of study provides the answer - moss. They used moss. This is based on the information gathered from the Yorvik dig.) For the early period feast that I did, I could document all of my ingredients and cooking techniques from Viking age archeological digs and sagas. I couldn't find any recipies, but I did the best I could. I would argue that this is the best source that we have for what the peasants ate. >If somebody finds a source of recipes from a peasant or merchant family in >14th-century England, every cookery researcher on this board will be in >ecstasy, and there will shortly be a rash of documented "below-the-salt" >dinners at SCA events. But until that happens, we have to make do with >what we have. I claim that basing our medieval cooking on medieval nobles' >recipes is less silly than basing it on modern recipes or on no recipes >whatsoever. The Menagiere of Paris? Not a whole lot a recipies, but lots of ingredients lists. As far as I know, the Menagiere was rich, but he was a merchant. Unfortunately, I believe that he was 15th c. Lothar From: jlpearso at vela.acs.oakland.edu (Alberic) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Wiping Buns Date: 12 Apr 1994 10:15:49 GMT Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. Seriously, apparently the crews of sailing ships (Spanish & Portugese anyway) were accustomed to using the end of an old (eg. frayed) anchor cable or some other piece of large, but useless line. Keep in mind that these would have probably been heavily coated in tar during their previous incarnation as standing rigging. This piece of line was then dragged overboard, in the cold, wet, SALTY atlantic ocean. Pick it up, use it, toss it back in....sounds like fun no? The citation to back this up comes in the form of a letter from one of the first priests to journey to the new world. After he got here, he wrote back to his Bishop complaining about the sanitary conditions on the ships. They all tended to just sort of hang over the side, where ever was convienient, and take care of business. (hang over on the DOWN-WIND side!!!!) The priest thought that this sort of... exposure, was beneath his dignity. In future, he wanted some sort of private arraingement, and he wanted his own rope. This was translated/quoted somewhere that escapes me at the moment, but if anyone cares enough to e-mail me, I could dig it up... In service to outrageous authenticity, but not to the Period Police, (or to the BOD, for that matter) I remain, Alberic Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 14:02:41 -0500 (CDT) From: "J. Patrick Hughes" To: sca-arts at listproc.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Use of Moss The excavations in Viking period Dublin indicate that there was the deliberate planting of certain mosses (sphagnum) in latrine pits to control the "acid chemicals in urine."(_Early Medieval Ireland_ p 73) I thought that some of those into herbal things might be interested. Charles O'Connor jphughes at raven.cc.ukans.edu Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:22:10 -0500 From: "Daniel Phelps" Subject: Re: SC - Huh? >LrdRas at aol.com wrote: phelpsd at gate.net writes: >> << a recreated 12th century Yorkish hole >> >> >> Ok, I'll bite. Explanation, please? >> Ras > >Typo for "Yorkish home", perhaps??? > >Adamantius Regarding "The 12th Century Yorkish Hole" Suffice it it say that when you combine a fit of pique, a soupcon of whimsy, and really good documentation of an obscure period object you get results which can be quite outre'. In my case "The Excavations at York; The Viking Dig" by Richard Hall, 1984 The Bodley Head, London, ISBN 0-370-30802-6 has on page 127 plate 153 a picture in situ of "Twelfth-century toilet seat fallen into a cess pit." In approximately 15 pages I document in exhaustive detail the hole in the plank and my reconstruction of it. It was in essence a study of documentation. I asked them to judge not the plank but the hole as it was analogous to judging a painting but not the frame. What insued was a brief decision of what was appropriate for Art/Sci and what category it should be entered in. We decided domestics and the consensus was that it indeed was appropriate for art/Sci. Incidentally we came to the conclusion that, for example, the instruments used in the regicide of Edward II were not. The Principal of the Laureate in Trimaris said upon reading the documentation that it was worth the trip as I made her laugh twice. Everyone involved asked for a copy of the documentation. The King declined to test it but at least one person said it was more cumfortable that hers at home. I have sent copies of the documentation privately to several persons on this list. If anyone else is interested I will attach them to private side messages to avoid clogging up the works. If you are at Gulf War next I plan on entering it in the grand melee competition. [note - Daniel's article is available in the Florilegium under the file name: 12thC-Hole-art -Stefan] Daniel Raoul le Vascon du Navarre'. Subject: ANST - Occupatoins..was Event Stewards.... Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 06:23:09 MST From: jhartel To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG Bowen wrote: > Pippa adds: > How about Garderobe Attendant or something similar. Many years ago I read a book that briefly discussed this "occupation". I believe the name used was "gong farmer". One of the farmers from the area would come into the castle once a month (I believe) and clean the toilets and take the remains back to the farmland to be use as fertilizer. I do not remember the name of the book or even where I got if from. Moriel*** Subject: RE: ANST - Event Steward vs Autocrat Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 21:09:24 MST From: "Decker, Terry D." To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'" > Well, while toilet *paper* wasn't used, scraps of cloth, clumps of sheep > wool and other things were. > > Lord Stefan li Rous Understood, but the reference was to toilet paper. If you want to look at toilet paper's place in history, try: Needham, Joesph and others, Science and Civilization in China, Vol. V, pt. 1, Paper and Printing; Cambridge, 1985. This is the source for ancient Chinese technology. The series was begun in 1954 and new volumes are added at irregular intervals. If you can't find Needham, the work was referenced in re: toilet paper on page 96 of Gies, Frances & Joseph, Cathedral, Forge, and Waterwheel; HarperCollins, 1994. Gies is a nice easy read on medieval technology and is particularly useful for the chapter notes and bibliography. Bear Subject: Re: *WH*Loos, was An Excerpt From a Letter to Mundane Friends Concerning the BaronialWall Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 17:24:58 -0400 From: "Xavier de Lyon" To: Sorry Bryn, It's a French saying "garde l'eau" literally watch out for the water. It was mangled into "garde loo" by non French speakers. You are probably wondering why the English use a French word. It is thanks to medieval guides aiding French businessmen while in England and Scotland would as part of their duties look for the falling water for their guests and would scream out "garde l'eau" whenever they saw a bedpan about to be chunked. The english took up the phrase in short order as a common curtesy. With "Haud yer han," being the common retort to let them know you were below. -Xavier de Lyon excerpt from http://ce.ecn.purdue.edu/~piwc/w3-history/crapper/crapper-ecenbarger.html During this period, the British had an expression-"gardyloo!"-that was roughly the equivalent of the golfer's "fore!" Gardyloo was a corruption of the French, garde lÕeau, "watch out for the water." In his "English Social History," G.M. Trevelyan explains how it came about: "Far overhead, the windows opened, 5,6, or 10 storeys in the air, and the close stools discharged the collected filth of the past 24 hours into the street. It was good manners for those above to cry, "Gardy-loo!" before throwing. The returning roysterer cried back, "Haud yer han," and ran with humped shoulders, lucky if his vast and expensive full-bottomed wig was not put out of action by a cataract of filth." >From: Bryn Smith >>This calls to mind an evil, EVIL thought.. >>(Living in England for a while gives one way too much useless trivia...) >>It was customary, in London, before indoor plumbing, to toss the evenings >>bedpan contents out of the window in the mornings.. The tossers were >supposed >>to warn the folks travelling the street by shouting out the windows a >>warning beforehand, "Look out below!" well, the peopel on the street only >>ever heard "Loo.." and if they hadn't ducked by thenn.. it was too late... >>(Hense the British go to the Loo.. ask for a restroom and they'll show you >>to a place with a couch.. A water closet and they'll show you their water >>heaters.. Ah, the fun English..) >I've always been under the impression that "loo" was short for lavatory (in >much the same way that Bill is short for William, and Jack is short for >John, englishisms all)... come on, somebody prove me wrong. >Bryn Smith (Mrs.) From: rio at austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Cold Weather Camping Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 06:24:35 GMT ruhl at latakia.dyndns.org (Robert A. Uhl) shouted over the general babble in a vain attempt to be heard: >Speaking of chamberpots, does anyone know where one might be able to >procure a periodish one? I.e., I can settle for non-period porcelain >and design, but if possible it'd be nice to hunt up a chamber pot >designed to do the job that looks appropriate. Granted, I'm the only >one who'll see it (hopefully), but... > >I've poked around in a few of the smaller antique-thing shops but have >thus far been unlucky. Antique pots would be glaringly obvious, anyway. Most Victorian and Regency-era pots look like really big white china mugs. Earlier ones would most likely have been earthenware, rather than china. You could try asking a potter to make you one. I would honestly think that would be your best bet. Margery Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Cold Weather Camping--Chamberpot Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 20:19:02 -0700 There is a reproduction of a period pottery urinal for sale at http://www.historicenterprises.com/sl/pottery.html . It is listed as being English, 15th Century. Mira Ghelena661 wrote: > I think Smoke and Fire or JS Townsend and Sons carry Williamsburg pottery. > One of them sells a chamberpot. > > My mother has one currantly in use as a flowerpot. > > They are earthenware, heavy, and have 17c flower things on the side. Out of > period for us, but better than a Victorian overgrown soup bowl thing! > > I saw Walter Raleigh's chamberpot in the Tower of London. I asked the > Beefeaters if it was his, and they told me what was original and what was not. > > The chamberpot is right next to the bed, impossible to miss seeing it! > > Roxanne Greenstreet From: Andrew Tye Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Cold Weather Camping Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 09:23:58 -0700 Organization: Oregon Public Networking On 24 Sep 2000, Robert A. Uhl wrote: > Speaking of chamberpots, does anyone know where one might be able to > procure a periodish one? I.e., I can settle for non-period porcelain > and design, but if possible it'd be nice to hunt up a chamber pot > designed to do the job that looks appropriate. Granted, I'm the only > one who'll see it (hopefully), but... Ivar here, Take a look over at: and look under Pottery. They sell a rather nice reproduction of a 15th C. Yorkshire urinal. Its a glazed pottery jar with a handle. It looks usable by XY types, less so by XX. It has a 24 oz. capacity... Ivar Hakonarson Crosston, West (who keeps a modern enameled steel thunder-mug under the aumbry at events) From: georg Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Chimneys/guarderobe Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 13:45:36 GMT Cynthia Virtue wrote: > georg wrote: >> Let me look. I *know* it is listed in sources I don't trust. I think >> it is listed in another I do. I assume you mean the hanging clothes in >> the garderobe part. > > Right. Thank you for being willing to look; I do appreciate it! > > cv Most of my good books are in my father's hands, as he has been researching plumbing far longer than I have. It's a family hobby inherited from my grandfather, who started the family lecture on privies. Both he and my father have toured with a slideshow presentation. I have gathered the family books a few times to write papers or give talks on the subject before, and I have been to a few castles while in England, and I always examine the architecture when there is time. The garderobes I have seen haven't had any mechanism *obvious* for hanging anything, including a screen for privacy from anyone else walking by in the hall. There usually wasn't even room for you move your legs into the alcove- so anyone approaching would know the seat was taken. But the ones I have seen were obviously for the servants and soldiers- not the Family in charge. There were two in the wall at Warcliffe Castle- this was the outer wall - about 10 feet apart along the same hall. There is one that was installed into White Chapel by Henry VIII that does have a twisting hallway for privacy. This was off the banquet hall. Henry III did insist on having a separate room for a "private chamber" or "wardrobe" every where he went, often requiring the addition to the houses he visited as early as 1233, and some of these were true garderobes (alcove in wall with seat and hole dropping into the moat) while at least one was the cistern type, as was the one for Queen's comfort in Whitehall. The Queen's privy had a chimney for venting as well. He was also considered weird for his obsession with privacy. According to "Temples of Convenience" (which seems to be a respectable source) which phrases this better than I can, "the word garderobe is sometimes confused with wardrobe. The wardrobe was the room adjoining the privy in which you might wash and dress. Clothes were kept in it, and sewing and dressmaking might also be done there. Garderobe was the usual word for the privy in the grander domestic dwelling or castle." But not every set of rooms included a garderobe. And I can see where this confusion can come about with spelling variances common. Reginald Reynolds in "Cleanliness and Godliness" does make this assertion that clothing is kept in garderobes. But I don't trust his research completely. His writing does prefer to work its way to the joke, rather than to the facts. Unfortunately plumbing research does tend to "plumb the depths of crappy material" for a laugh. Many of the richer people had close-stools instead of coping with garderobes (either chutes to the moat or over cisterns). These are wooden boxes, leather lined, covered in fabric with stuffed seats and a lid that locks. I have several pictures of one that is attributed to both James I and Elizabeth I extant in Hampton Court. These would be kept in the wardrobe or privy chamber, or carried to wherever they could be needed- and travel with the owner as well. Other euphemisms for this sort of chamber include hall of honor, the temple, or holy chamber. It is thought that many so called priest holes were just rooms for the close-stools. I've been trying to figure out how to make one of my own with modern sanitation in mind, for travel to War. Last year, they closed most of the flush toilets, and I'm allergic to chemical toilets. I did not stay at War under those conditions, and I will not be going this year or until I can bring something I can use. (yes, I'm allergic to personal chem toilets too-it's breathing around the chemicals that sets off the asthma-like reaction). A close-stool that I can keep in my tent may be a good option. -georg George Anne Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 20:11:58 -0400 From: Cynthia Virtue Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Chimneys/guarderobe georg wrote: > The garderobes I have seen haven't had any mechanism *obvious* for > hanging anything, including a screen for privacy from anyone else > walking by in the hall. There usually wasn't even room for you move your > legs into the alcove- Right, that's what I recall from several castles in England. You'd be lucky if you could raise your elbows without hitting the walls, sometimes. cv Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 10:58:37 -0400 From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT Question To: Cooks within the SCA > Wright, Lawrence, 1906- > Clean and decent : the history of the bath and loo and of sundry > habits, fashions & accessories of > the toilet, principally in Great Britain, France & America / by > Lawrence Wright. > Rev. ed. / with additional material by Dave Larder. > London ; Boston : Routledge & Kegan Paul, 1980. > x, 211 p. : ill. ; 22 cm. > ISBN: 0710006470 (pbk.) This is an EXCELLENT summary, albeit from a 1950s perspective, of the material, and a great place to start. It would have been better, of course, with a more extensive bibliography & footnotes, but of all the general books on the topic, this is the best-researched; scholarly works tend to be more narrow in their time focus. -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika From: Susan McMahill Date: November 12, 2007 1:36:12 PM CST To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Gong Farmer (was SCA Vocabulary) From the Discovery Channel website: The Gong Farmer The gong farmer was the Tudor equivalent of a modern mobile toilet attendant. It was his job to empty the privies (a row of holes in a wooden plank over a tank) of private households. Once the farmer's vat was full of 'gong' (dung), he carted it outside the city walls. The job was so unsavoury that gong farmers were only allowed to work during the night and were forced to live together in designated areas. When tobacco arrived in this country most gong farmers became heavy smokers to mask the gut-wrenching pong of the gong! Sounds like the perfect title for the job rather than nasty-crat, etc. ;) Lyneya > From: talana1 at hotmail.com > To: ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org > Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 13:32:07 -0600 > Subject: [Ansteorra] Gong Farmer (was SCA Vocabulary) > > Claire wrote: > > While you are there look up Gong Farmer. We once used that to replace > > nasty-crat. I'd love to know if it was accurate or useful. It was a very > > fun reference in any case. > > As a matter of fact, the "Worst Jobs > of History - Tudor Era" program featured the role and toils of the > "gong farmer." Very English, very period for SCA. The gong farmer > cleared out middens, privies, and sewers. > > Talana Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 08:42:15 -0500 From: "Elise Fleming" Subject: [Sca-cooks] Comfits and Sugar Temperatures To: "sca-cooks at ansteorra.org" Greetings! My son-in-law re-did my web site and added several articles including comfits and sugar temperatures. Also new are some photos of historic "garderobes", for those interested in the "end results". You can find it all at http://home.netcom.com/~alysk/ . Alys Katharine Edited by Mark S. Harris p-privies-msg Page 15 of 15