Roman-hygiene-msg - 8/30/00

Hygiene of the Romans.

NOTE: See also the files: p-hygiene-msg, Mouthwash-art, perfumes-msg, 
p-manners-msg, p-dental-care-msg, bathing-msg, soap-msg, cosmetics-msg.

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NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I  
have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages 
date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These 
files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I  have done  a limited amount  of  editing. Messages having to do  with 
separate topics  were sometimes split into different files and sometimes 
extraneous information was removed. For instance, the  message IDs  were 
removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make  
no claims  as  to the accuracy  of  the information  given  by the individual 
authors.

Please  respect the time  and  efforts of  those who have written  these 
messages. The  copyright status  of these messages  is  unclear  at this time. 
If  information  is  published  from  these  messages, please give credit to 
the originator(s).

Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 10:03:52 -0600
From: Jane Sitton-Logan <jesl at netzero.net>
To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org, elfsea at ansteorra.org, gdc at airmail.net,
        rio at austin.rr.com, psobaka at mail.myriad.net, ronna at 
primenet.com,
        jschumac at jcpenney.com, stefan at texas.net
Subject: Roman Hygiene (finally!)

Bonjour mes amis, from Madelina de Lindesaye!

Rome wasn't built in a day, but why did it take so long for me to get
this posted?  Well, the computer crashed back in August.  Then we
moved.  Finally got the computer running again, then the modem wouln't
be detected.  Got a new modem.  Got a new hard drive and motherboard to
solve some other conflicts.  Then it wouldn't detect the mouse.  Finally
got it all working, but since the old hard drive was reformated, I
thought I had lost the information.  Got connected to the old (free)ISP,
and lo and behold, all the old info was still there!  So it just took me
a while (after wading through almost 5,000 emails) to edit and compile
all the Roman hygiene information.  Since it was such a chore, I thought
I'd go ahead and post it to the list in the hopes that whoever wants it
can just download the file instead of me dealing with a lot of requests.

So if you're squeamish, don't open the file.  Those that do, I hope you
find the information interesting and perhaps useful.  (I like the idea
of the calderium myself.)

Amicalement,
Madelina
aka Jane Sitton-Logan

--------Start of messages sent by Madelina (Jane Sitton-Logan)-------
There's an article that claims there is such evidence (soap for cleaning
clothes): http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_413000/413747.stm

Morey Brill writes:
> Is there any written testimony or archaeological findings that the
> ancient Romans used soap for bathing or cleaning of clothes?

I cannot think of any mention of soap in any Roman Latin author I have read,
not even in Pliny the Elder, whom I expect would have covered it if he had
found it marginally important.

According to Partridge's etymological dictionary, the word -sapo- was
borrowed into Latin from a Germanic.or Celtic word; the native reflex of
which was -sebum-.  My understanding is that Roman bathers cleaned
themselves with olive oil, perfumes, and scrapers, but no soap.  Their
laundries used a number of oddments, including a nitro-phosphate rich
ingredient which is unlikely to make it into contemporary detergent
advertisements, but gave them the double-edged word -lotium- (lege:
*lav-tium) but no soap for them, either.


Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 16:55:53 +0200
From: "Andrew Miles" <gloriosus at ozemail.com.au>
To:   latin at mlists.net

They didn't use tooth paste either, although the famous Egnatius poem
(Catullus 39) tells us that urine did the job well.


From: "lchester" <lchester at massed.net>
To:   <latin at mLists.net>

I can recall reading that dolphins' blood was used by the Romans to cleanse
their teeth.  I believe that the information was provided on a poster
depicting the history of toothpaste put out by the Crest toothpaste company
some years ago. Linda Chester (lchester at massed.net)

From: "rwill627" <rwill627 at camalott.com>
To:   <latin at mLists.net>

There is the history of the word candidate, which various sources say came
from the word meaning shining white because the fullers beat chalk into the
wool togas to make them sparkling white for their customers who were
running for office. THE PRIVATE LIFE OF THE ROMANS says," It is remarkable
that with the vast numbers of slaves in the familia urbana it never became
usual to have soiled garments cleansed at home. Garments showing traces of
use were sent by the well-to-do to the fullers to be washed, whitened, or
redyed and pressed."
Rose Williams


From: "Ralph Hancock" <hancock at dircon.co.uk>
To:   <latin at mLists.net>

I have an article which says that soap was first brought to Europe from the
Middle East by the Phoenicians, about 600 BC, but that at least until the
second century AD it was used only medically, for example for the treatment
of scrofulous sores.

This was in an encyclopaedia of technology I edited over 20 years ago, and I
no longer have a record of the source of the article. We made much use of
the Derry/Holmyard/Williams History of Technology.

Ralph Hancock
<hancock at dircon.co.uk>
<http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~hancock>


From: "Steven A. Gustafson" <stevegus at aye.net>
To:   latin at mlists.net
 
The Roman way of bathing, using public pools, probably was not
particularly conducive to making extensive use of suds and lather,
especially given that everyone shared the same water.

Pliny the Elder -does- briefly mention soap.  It's in book 28, chapter
51, and it has nothing to do with bathing or cleaning.  His recipe does
contain a number of oddments apparently added for magical reasons, but
just perhaps because of their alkalinity.  His recipe apparently calls
for goat suet and beechwood ashes.  He has apparently not considered
that it might be of value in bathing, but is more useful as hair slickum
for Gauls (Gauls never change, do they?) and apparently notes with some
surprise that German guys use it more than the women do:

Prodest et sapo, Galliarum hoc inventum rutilandis capillis. Fit ex sebo
et cinere, optimus fagino et caprino, duobus modis, spissus ac liquidus,
uterque apud Germanos maiore in usu viris quam feminis.

Steven A. Gustafson, attorney at law
Fox & Cotner:  PHONE (812) 945 9600   FAX (812) 945 9615
http://www.foxcotner.com


From: Steven Boozer <sboozer at midway.uchicago.edu>
To:   latin at mLists.net

Steven A. Gustafson, attorney at law, wrote:
: The Roman way of bathing, using public pools, probably was not
: particularly conducive to making extensive use of suds and lather,
: especially given that everyone shared the same water.

The Japanese seem to manage.  First you wash and rinse yourself off with a
bucket of water (have a friend or an attendant do your back), *then* you go
for a nice long soak in the hot water with everyone else.

Steven Boozer   University of Chicago Library   s-boozer at uchicago.edu


From: azmjb at aztec.asu.edu (MOREY BRILL)
To:   latin at mLists.net

I want to thank all, especially Professor Gill, for the abundance
of information on soap and the ancient Romans. The website from
BBC News is very informative. Apparently much of the information
contained therein comes from archaeological research rather than
from the writings of the ancient Romans. Of particular interest
was the collective use of urine in large jars to create ammonia 
to be used to wash clothes. Also, many thanks for the citations
from Pliny on Roman oral hygiene. All of this makes us realize
how fortunate we are today to be at this point in the development
of science for the betterment of human life. 

Morey Brill


From: "William P Thayer" <petworth at 21stcentury.net>
To:   latin at mlists.net

>They didn't use tooth paste either, although the famous Egnatius poem
>(Catullus 39) tells us that urine did the job well.

Yes on the Catullus urine poem, but no on the toothpaste. They did -- or at
least tooth powder -- and among the refs is in fact a curious poem by
Apuleius in the Apologia (pro se de Magia). Rather than tease anyone, here
it is (Ap. 6):

Calpurniane, salve properis vorsibus.
misi, ut petisti, tibi munditias dentium,
nitelas oris ex Arabicis frugibus,
tenuem, candificum, nobilem pulvisculum,
complanatorem tumidulae gingivulae,
converritorem pridianae reliquiae,
ne qua visatur tetra labes sordium,
restrictis forte si labellis riseris.

Notice that it covers much of the same ground as modern commercials...
Nihil novi sub sole.

Bill Thayer   LacusCurtius
http://www.ukans.edu/history/index/europe/ancient_rome/E/Roman


From: Dexter Hoyos <dexter.hoyos at antiquity.usyd.edu.au>
To:   latin list <latin at mLists.net>

Linda Chester wrote (8 viii) : 
<< I can recall reading that dolphins' blood was used by the Romans to cleanse
their teeth.  >>

I don't know about this but Pliny the Elder's descriptions of what people used
for their teeth make for exciting and informative (and generally repulsive)
reading.  The main discussion is at Nat Hist 28, sections 178-79 and 182 where
we learn, for instance, that much in use were

   - the ashes of deer's horn, or else powdered deerhorn, 'whether [the teeth]
are rubbed down or rinsed'
   - the ashes of a wolf's head ('magnum remedium')
   - the ashes of a hare's head (and if you add nard it kills bad breath)
   - the ashes of 'the pastern bone of an ox', or of that of a freshly killed
she-goat, or of various pig bones
   - goat's milk or bull's gall. 
These useful recipes are accompanied by others, or by variants, of the
greatest help in fixing loose teeth and mouth sores (e.g. for bad teeth you
can apply 'workman's glue boiled down in water', though you must then rinse
the teeth with wine boiled with sweet pomegranates' rind).  

Elswhere one discovers other formulae:  
   - ashes of dog's teeth in wine, boiled down to half the original quantity
   - oyster-shell ashes (also good for burns and, mixed with honey, for sore
tonsils and sores on the head, inter alia)
   - for decayed teeth, whale's flesh dried overnight in a furnace and mixed
with an equal quantity of salt

Et cetera.  Interspersed with these toothpastes are recommended ways of
dealing with bad teeth, including various other mixes which in some cases are
to be poured into the ear (e.g. earthworms boiled down in oil:  NH 30.23).  Or
again, 'into hollow teeth is stuffed ash from mouse dung, or the dried liver
of lizards' (this at NH 30.22).  And 'if the mouth has been scalded by
over-hot things, bitch's milk will give an immediate cure' (30.27), which
means it is a good thing to keep a litter of newborn puppies and their mom
close by;  or relays of these, if you are given to hot foods.  

Just a lunchtime contribution ...         Dexter H. / Sydney


From: Michael Kirk <bricktosser at netzero.net>
To:   latin at mLists.net

Weren't stirgils/scrappers used instead of soap?

Michael Kirk
bricktosser at netzero.net


From: "Ralph Hancock" <hancock at dircon.co.uk>
To:   <latin at mLists.net>

The system was to first smear yourself with olive oil, then have a good long
workout at the palaestra, then scrape the resulting mixture of oil, sweat
and dirt off with your strigil. Probably very good for the skin, rather like
removing makeup with cold cream. However, one wonders what the equivalent
procedure was for women. Also, it must have had a terrible effect on spotty
Roman teenagers -- though perhaps a steaming session in the calidarium
counteracted it.

Ralph Hancock
<hancock at dircon.co.uk>
<http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~hancock>


From: Pallanteum at aol.com
To:   latin at mlists.net

Wouldn't this technique also scrape off a good amount of hair?  Was 
removing/being without body hair fashionable?

Mark Keith
pallanteum at aol.com
Chancellor High School
Fredericksburg, VA USA


From: "Ralph Hancock" <hancock at dircon.co.uk>

Yes. I think men even had the hair pulled out of their armpits with
tweezers. You didn't want to look like a hairy barbarian.

Ralph Hancock
<hancock at dircon.co.uk>
<http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~hancock>


From: "N C Lee et al." <nlee2 at isd.net>
To:   <latin at mLists.net>

Eduardus sodalibus s.p.d.

sapo, saponis m.: dippiddy doo
Remember that a pomade made of beechwood ashes and goat suet would suds up
just fine the next time the jelled hair went to the thermae.

smegma, smegmatis n.: soaps suds or scum.
This is what Susanna was going to use for bathing in the orchard, as
recounted in the deuterocanonical appendix to the Book of Daniel.
Unfortunately she was interrupted by a couple of voyeuristic geezers:

17 Dixit ergo puellis: Afferte mihi oleum, et smigmata, et ostia pomarii
claudite, ut laver. 18 Et fecerunt sicut pr¾ceperat: clauseruntque ostia
pomarii, et egress¾ sunt per posticum ut afferrent qu¾ iusserat.
nesciebantque senes intus esse absconditos

The word also occurs somewhere in Pliny in the sense of a detergent lotion.

valete
--------End of messages sent by Madelina (Jane Sitton-Logan)-------


Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 21:49:42 MST
From: "C. L. Ward" <gunnora at realtime.net>
Subject: ANST - Roman Soap
To: Ansteorra at ansteorra.org

Pliny does mention soap, to wit:

Prodest et sapo, Galliarum hoc inventum rutilandis capillis. Fit ex sebo et
cinere, optimus fagino et caprino, duobus modis, spissus ac liquidus,
uterque apud Germanos maiore in usu viris quam feminis. 

Soap is the invention of the Gauls and this is used to redden the hair. It
is made from fat and ashes -- the best is beech wood ash and goat fat, the
two combined, thick and clear. Many among the Germans use it, the men more
than the women.

(Pliny the Elder Historia Naturalis)

It is likely that this soap was not being used to clean the hair but rather
to bleach it.  You make the soap strongly basic, and it does bleach hair.
The beechwood and goat fat are not magical ingredients -- Pliny is simply
reporting the best type of lye source (beechwood ashes) and fat source
(goat fat) for use in soap.

::GUNNORA::
mailto:gunnora at bga.com

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	Roman-hygiene-msg	4