Charlemagne-msg - 8/14/10 Comments and referances to Charlemagne (Charles the Great). NOTE: See also the files: Charlemagne-art, Charlemagne-lnks, Inven-Charle-man, Charlemag-MPS-art, gardening-bib, p-agriculture-bib, Gaul-art, scrpt-develop-art. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 22:06:44 +0200 From: Thomas Gloning Subject: SC - Charlemagne The story about Charlemagne and his doctors, Adamantius mentioned, is in chapter 22 of Einhard's 'Vita Karoli Magni' (Live of Charlemagne). -- Later, in chapter 24, Einhard describes his eating and drinking habits, e.g.: "Caena cotidiana quaternis tantum ferculis praebebatur, praeter assam, quam venatores veribus inferre solebant, qua ille libentius quam ullo alio cibo vescebatur" (his daily meals consisted of four courses (?), he liked meat, that his hunters roasted, most). While eating, he heard music or heard somebody read something (e.g. Saint Augustine). He did not drink much wine during the meals: rarely did he drink more than three cups... -- I am sure there are English translations of this text out there. -- Einhard was a contemporary and a friend of Charlemagne. << 'Then, of course, I'm pretty sure we have access to which herbs were grown in Charlemagne's gardens. ...' Yes, I keep coming across references to this list of things he wanted grown on his estates, but I can't find the whole list. I am hoping someone here can point me in the right direction. >> The list is the Capitulare de villis. There are several editions and books about this text: - -- Capitularia regum Francorum. Denuo edidit A. Boretius. Tomus primus. Hannover 1883. Nachdruck Hannover 1960 (MGH). [A standard edition; the one I use] - -- Capitulare de villis. Codex guelf. 254 Helmst. der Herzog August Bibliothek Wolfenb¸ttel. Band 1: Kommentar. Band 2: Faksimile. Hg. von C.R. Br¸hl. Stuttgart 1971. [Facsimile of the manuscript with a commentary; the one I would like to have too] - -- Fois Ennas, B.: Il Capitulare de villis. Mailand 1981. [not seen] - -- Metz, G.: Das karolingische Reichsgut. Berlin 1960. [not seen] Thomas Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 01:45:37 +0200 From: Thomas Gloning Subject: SC - Charlemagne Forgot something. A Latin text of Einhard is at: http://www.gmu.edu/departments/fld/CLASSICS/ein.html (The episode with the medical doctors in ch. 22, the passages on eating and drinking in ch. 24.) Thomas Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 14:04:50 EDT From: allilyn at juno.com Subject: Re: SC - Charlemagne - long quotes From Einhard: #24. "He was moderate in his eating and drinking , and especially so in drinking; for he hated to see drunkenness in any man, and even more so in himself and his friends. all the same, he could not go long without food, and he often used to complain that fasting made him feel ill. He rarely gave banquets and these only on high feast days, but then he would invite a great number of guests. His main meal of the day was served in four courses, in addition to the roast meat which his hunters used to bring in on spits and which he enjoyed more than any other food....snip... He was so sparing in his use of wine and every other beverage that he rarely drank more than three times in the course of his dinner. In summer, after his midday meal, he would eat some fruit and take another drink;...nap... EINHARD AND NOTKER THE STAMMERER, TWO LIVES OF CHARLEMAGNE. Translator, Lewis Thorpe, Editor: Betty Radice, Penguin Classics, 1969. There are other references to generous hosting, which implied food in that time, and for his grand-son, to giving up 'dainty foods' during time of fasting Notker, #15. "Once, when making the same journey, Charlemagne visited without previous warning a certain bishop whose palace was on his direct route. It was the sixth day of the week, and on that day he was not prepared to eat the flesh of animals or birds. By the nature of the place the bishop was unable to provide fish except by previous arrangement. He ordered an excellent cheese, white with cream, to be served to the Emperor. Charlemagne, who was always moderate in his demands and ready for anything, no matter what the occasion, ...snip... He picked up his knife, threw away the skin, which, so he said, was not edible, and began to eat the white cheese. Then the bishop, who stood beside the Emporer to wait upon his wishes, took a step forward and asked: 'Why do you do that, my Lord Emperor? You are throwing away the best part...." snip.....put a piece of the skin in his mouth, chewed slowly and swallowed it as if it were butter." Emperor tries it, agrees [Brie, anyone?] orders 2 cart-loads for every year, as good as this cheese. Bishop doesn't know how to choose the best, C. says cut in half and check, rejoin with skewer, "collect them in your cellar..." [After 3 years, the bishop gets a rich estate for the church "from which the bishop and his successors could draw as much corn [grain] and wine as they...need..." Notker, talking about a greedy bishop, describes a bit of banquet: ""Every imaginable variety of drink, mixed with all kinds of flavoring and coloring-matter, garlanded with herbs and flowers, which set off the gleam of the jewels ...snip... At the same time pastry-cooks, roasters of meat, bakers of fine bread and stuffers of chickens were striving to stimulate their appetite with the viands which they had prepared with such artistry;..." So, you may not use much in the way of spice, except mustard, but there are herbs--know I have a list somewhere--find it tomorrow, maybe--and there were stuffed chickens, fine cheese, butter, pastries, breads, game and other meats, birds, etc. Decorated as nicely as you like--these were very civilized people. Allison, allilyn at juno.com Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 02:13:46 EDT From: allilyn at juno.com Subject: Re: SC - Charlemagne + St. Gall Charlemagne's list in in his _Capitulaire_, which I don't have, but I do have the plant list from St. Gall, which he loved, and to which he gave money and items. There should be some simularity. Veg. garden plants: onions, shallots, garlic, leek, celery, parsley, coriander, chervil, dill, lettuce, poppy, savory, radishes, parsnip, carrots, colewort, beet, black cumin. [colewort is a sort of cabbage]. Orchard: apple, pear, mulberry, peach. plum, service & medlar, laurel, chestnut, fig, quince, hazelnut, almond, walnut. Physicc garden plants: 'Kidney' bean, savvory, rose, horsemint, cumin, lovage, fennel, tansy, lily, sage rue, flag iris, pennyroyal, fenugreek, mint, rosemary. Note that some plants from the physic garden also are used as food. Allison, allilyn at juno.com Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 03:30:52 +0200 From: Thomas Gloning Subject: SC - Capitulare de villis (Charlemagne) It seems to me that Ulrich Harsch (Augsburg) has a complete latin text of the capitulare de villis online. Chapter #70 is about plants and trees: http://www.fh-augsburg.de/~harsch/Chronologia/Lspost08/CarolusMagnus/kar_vill.html Thomas Subject: BG - August 15th, in 778 Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 12:57:00 -0500 From: gemartt at mail.utexas.edu To: bryn-gwlad at ansteorra.org A biography about Charlemagne was written in the 9th century by Eginhard. In this account, he writes about an ambush of Charlemagne's army that happened on the August 15th, in the year of 778: " . . as the army was proceeding, stretched out in a long thin column because of the narrowness of that defile, the Basques lay in ambush on top of a mountain - the place is thickly covered with woods and therefore well suited for such covert attacks; and they rushed down upon the end of the baggage train and upon those troops in the rear-guard who were protecting the main army ahead, forced them down to the bottom of the valley, engaged them in battle and killed them to the last man; then they looted the baggage, and protected by the gathering night they scattered in every direction with all the speed they had. In what took place the Basques were favored by the lightness of their arms and the terrain in which they fought; and the Franks were put thoroughly at a disadvantage by the great weight of their arms and the unevenness of the ground. In this battle were killed Eggihardus, seneschal of the royal table; Ansehlmus, count of the palace; and Hruoldlandus, prefect of the marches of Brittany, among many others." The death of "Hruoldlandus" would later become the basis for a great poem written about 300 years later, known as "The Song of Roland". Thomas Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 20:48:37 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: [Sca-cooks] Charlemagne and the doctors Here's a little quote from Einhard. Bear "His health was good until four years before he died, when he suffered from constant fevers. Toward the very end he also became lame in one foot. Even then he trusted his own judgment rather than the advice of his physicians, whom he almost loathed, since they urged him to stop eating roast meat, which he liked, and to start eating boiled meat." Einhard, The Life of Charlemagne, chapter 22. Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 09:16:09 -0600 (CST) From: "Pixel, Goddess and Queen" To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Charlemagne and the doctors "His health was good until four years before he died, when he suffered from constant fevers. Toward the very end he also became lame in one foot. Even then he trusted his own judgment rather than the advice of his physicians, whom he almost loathed, since they urged him to stop eating roast meat, which he liked, and to start eating boiled meat." Einhard, The Life of Charlemagne, chapter 22. Yes- that's the quote that got me started on the whole thing of wondering why his doctors insisted on boiled meats. (As it turns out, no one tells the emperor what to do!) Have a brand-new copy of Anthimus that I'm starting in on. Might get some illumination there. :-) 'Lainie>>>> to which otsisto wrote: <<< Though I don't know if the physicians would have know exactly but could it have been the carcinogens that roasted tends to have. Perhaps they had associated the condition to the roasted meat. >>> On Mon, 8 Mar 2010, Antonia Calvo wrote: <<< that sounds *wildly* unlikely. We know that roasted meats were considered "hotter" than boiled meats, and fevers are a disorder of excessive heat, so recommending boiled meats over roasted would have been a no-brainer for an early medieval physician. >>> What Antonia said. The proper way to cook beef to "correct" its nature is by boiling and serving with the proper sorts of sauces. The ancient physicians (of which Anthimus is considered one, as he was using sources like Galen) had no clue about carcinogens. Also, Anthimus barely touches on humoral theory (I just read Anthimus a couple of weeks ago) so there isn't much useful about Charlemagne in his letter directly. There's some useful stuff in the intro, though. The sources you want for Charlemagne are Galen, Aristotle, Celsus, Hippocrates, Pythagoras, etc. Margaret FitzWilliam Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 21:12:46 +0000 (GMT) From: Volker Bach To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Charlemagne and the doctors --- Laura C. Minnick schrieb am So, 7.3.2010: Terry Decker wrote: <<< Here's a little quote from Einhard. Bear "His health was good until four years before he died, when he suffered from constant fevers. Toward the very end he also became lame in one foot. Even then he trusted his own judgment rather than the advice of his physicians, whom he almost loathed, since they urged him to stop eating roast meat, which he liked, and to start eating boiled meat." Einhard, The Life of Charlemagne, chapter 22. >>> Yes- that's the quote that got me started on the whole thing of wondering why his doctors insisted on boiled meats. (As it turns out, no one tells the emperor what to do!) Have a brand-new copy of Anthimus that I'm starting in on. Might get some illumination there. :-) ------------- According to Hans-Dieter Stoff?ler in his commenterd edition of Walahfrid Strabo's Hortulusa, the most widespread medical text of the Carolingian era was Quintus Serenus' 'liber medicinalis'. Serenus' main source was Pliny, of all people. I've also found Anthimus and a collection of 'Ariostotelian' adages that clearly do refer to humoral theory, though they don't really lay it out. I haven't been able to traclk down a copy yet, but according to Stoffler, Serenus original text is in Aemilius Baehrens' collection Poetae Latini minores (Vol III, pp. 103 ff, Leipzig 1879) Giano Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 07:45:21 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] what the Franks were eating It is an inventory of Charlemagne's property kept on the estate, not the personal property of the staff, so there may have been other towels not listed. Since the towel is listed with coverings for one bed and one tablecloth, it suggests to me that these are the linens to be used for guests who were travelling light and fast, rather than households that would be supported by a baggage train. Bear <<< No, really. I went through the stuff in this inventory: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/800Asnapium.html which is keen also for the other stuff in it- and not- only one towel? For the whole estate? Liutgard ;-) >>> Date: Sun, 02 May 2010 07:32:43 -0700 From: "Laura C. Minnick" To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] what the Franks were eating <<< It is an inventory of Charlemagne's property kept on the estate, not the personal property of the staff, so there may have been other towels not listed. Since the towel is listed with coverings for one bed and one tablecloth, it suggests to me that these are the linens to be used for guests who were travelling light and fast, rather than households that would be supported by a baggage train. Bear >>> That's pretty much the conclusion I've come to. Charles dragged a lot of people around with him, so he likely had that sort of stuff with him. (It appears that he took the wife and kids pretty much wherever he went- including campaigning- until fairly late in his life, when he settled the family in the palace at Aachen. I would imagine that they had a lot of towels in their baggage!) Do you suppose they also brought more cooking equipment with them? I noticed that there didn't seem to be much in the way of pots and pans and cutlery. Lots of livestock though. The food issue is only one of the things I'm working on- also deep into a network of monasteries that supported Charles' educational projects, contemporary theology, the location of one of his wives (if she existed- a couple of recent scholars doubti, which is not consistent with the primary records), etc etc etc. The Frankish 'rabbit hole' is a veritable warren, and I've been doing a lot of 'oooh! Look at this!' and getting distracted... Liutgard Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 13:32:21 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] what the Franks were eating << It is an inventory of Charlemagne's property kept on the estate, not the personal property of the staff, so there may have been other towels not listed. Since the towel is listed with coverings for one bed and one tablecloth, it suggests to me that these are the linens to be used for guests who were travelling light and fast, rather than households that would be supported by a baggage train. Bear >> <<< That's pretty much the conclusion I've come to. Charles dragged a lot of people around with him, so he likely had that sort of stuff with him. (It appears that he took the wife and kids pretty much wherever he went- including campaigning- until fairly late in his lafe, when he settled the family in the palace at Aachen. I would imagine that they had a lot of towels in their baggage!) Do you suppose they also brought more cooking equipment with them? I noticed that there didn't seem to be much in the way of pots and pans and cutlery. Lots of livestock though. The food issue is only one of the things I'm working on- also deep into a network of monasteries that supported Charles' educational projects, contemporary theology, the location of one of his wives (if she existed- a couple of recent scholars doubti, which is not consistent with the primary records), etc etc etc. The Frankish 'rabbit hole' is a veritable warren, and I've been doing a lot of 'oooh! Look at this!' and getting distracted... Liutgard >>> Asnapium was apparently a small villa with limited resources, so it was likely a farm providing provender to larger estates or even the Palace. It probably didn't have the capacity to handle Charlemagne's full household. The limited cookware may be an indication of this. IIRC, the Capitulare de Vilis calls for a greater number of estate equipment than the inventory of Asnapium indicates. I don't know about Charlemagne's period, but 12th and 13th Century England appears to have used a similar rotating manorial system with the various manors being stocked with communal goods and cookware and finer, individual linens, dinnerware and the like traveling in the baggage train. Bakers (and possibly some cooks) went ahead of the household to prepare staples in advance of the household's arrival. Lots of side-tracks. Charlemagne's France was an amazingly complex place and very fascinating. I tend to accept Einhard and the original texts in Monumentia Germanie Historica as the baseline. Recent scholarship may be street cred for academics rather than a serious question. Bear Date: Sun, 02 May 2010 16:47:35 -0400 From: Sam Wallace To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] what the Franks were eating Liutgard, "Then there's this: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitulare_de_villis_vel_curtis_imperii The Capitulare was basically the instructions that Charlemagne sent out on how he wanted his various estates run, including what was to be grown in the gardens, fields, orchards, etc. This page is in German, but if you scroll down, you'll find the Latin names for these plants. Occasionally there's two listed, apparently because for the one original word, there are two possibilities as to what the plant is. There's a very wide variety of fruit and vegetables, some medicial herbs, and some nuts. A _very_ interesting list." Here is the Capitulare de villis in Latin, if it is of interest: http://diglib.hab.de/mss/254-helmst/start.htm This is a parallel transcription and translation: http://www.le.ac.uk/hi/polyptyques/capitulare/latin2english.html In general, the whole site is wonderful, having other Carolingian Polyptyques, just as nicely laid out. http://www.le.ac.uk/hi/polyptyques/index.html And this is another transcription of the original, though formatting was not kept. It does have a very interesting illustration, though. http://www.hs-augsburg.de/~harsch/Chronologia/Lspost08/CarolusMagnus/kar_vill.html Guillaume Edited by Mark S. Harris Charlemagne-msg 9 of 9