P-history-msg - 3/16/08 Pennsic history. NOTE: See also the files: BPThingie-art, Enchnted-Grd-msg, Pennsic-ideas-msg, P-stories-msg, P-storage-msg, SCA-hist1-msg, SCA-stories1-msg, P-tale-MWIFO-art. ';///// NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: PB06098 at uafsysb.uark.EDU (Paul Byers) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Fighting Hamsters Date: 12 Mar 1993 05:06:46 -0500 The Calontir song of fighting hamsters is written for me. (large grin and swell ing of breast!) Back at pensic 12, or was it 13? anyway, In those days I fought with a duct-taped hamster on my helm. (plastic, sword and shield, brown.) That was the year I introed the Calon shield wall. I was the center scutum, anchoring the whole line. All my secondarys were females. All throught he differnt assaults they would hit my hamster with their pommals. hamster would squeak, they would giggle, I would yell/whine 'girls! Please!' and the foe was sore confused. Later in the war a great sword blew the pore hamster off my helm. We recoverd him and got hime drunk. After that for a few years most of the calon aremy wore hamsters on or in their helms. I still have my original hamster some were. Enough. If you want to hear more E-mail me while I'm at a real editor. Pavel (still in combat with the dual demons NDIS and ODI!) Calontir From: hwt at bcarh11a.BNR.CA (Henry Troup) Subject: Re: Blasphemy Alert : Move Pennsic ? Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 12:21:47 GMT |>doconnor at sedona.intel.com writes: |>#> The real issue, from my distant perspective in Arizona, is when is |>#> Pennsic going to get a site large enough that there's no longer a |>#> need for such limiting limitations on tent/encampement size ? (I resist the temptation to refer to Dennis as "The O'Connor Don", really I do!) (It's a title of the chief of Clan O'Connor, not an insult.) I'm not sure that such a site exists -- or can be created. Most camping events of 10,000 people are things like Boy Scout Jamborees. Very often, they are held in state parks and the like. There's a large state park near Cooper's Lake. It is a "dry site" - no alcohol allowed. I don't know who makes it so, but I am given to understand that this is a common rule. The things we'd be up against are rules -- dry site, no fires allowed, no clothing optional swimming hole -- in nearly any government facility. And, can you imagine the reaction of any commercial camp site - "We only have 1000 spaces, and you want 15,000 people to attend! No way, Jose!". Cooper's Lake was 100 spaces for regular camping, according to the AAA campbook. The third alternative is the unimproved farmland one - possible, but not as comfortable as Cooper's Lake. I think that Pennsic works as well as it does because it has grown on that site from around 500 to its current size. Did you know that Pennsic supports the state liquor store in Newcastle? If it wasn't for August sales of wine and liquor, the store would have been closed. The supermarket nearest Cooper's Lake stocks whole legs of lamb in August - and no other time of year. The total support from Butler County is really good - it flows both ways. There's a 16 year relationship to build on. The kids who pack groceries in the supermarkets have seen SCA people every August for a lifetime - incredible! There's established trust inwith the community there. 10,000 strangely dressed people would get a lot of communities really nervous, after all. Henry Troup - H.Troup at BNR.CA (Canada) - BNR owns but does not share my opinions This is a virus-free signature From: gray at ibis.cs.umass.edu (Lyle FitzWilliam) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Serengeti hints.... Date: 12 Aug 1993 02:58:21 GMT Organization: Bergental, East Kingdom (John T Dillon) writes: >Keep lots of water around and drink copious quantities. > >If you feel a headache coming on, go shopping, wander the barn, or head >into the wooded areas where it will be cooler. And repeat the previous step: Drink water. >Every year I camped where I had parked the previous year. Last year I parked >beyond the second hill... Hmmmm.... I love it! Runestone Hill, as I have heard, use to be the main battlefield. When I was at Pennsic XIII, I camped on the Old Archery Field, on the far side of the lake. There were three or four tents there. In the Woods Battle that year (you all know, the one with the causeway...), at Resurrection Point there was a little table set up, where they checked you in, putting a mark in the column of the side that you fought for, to get an idea of the numbers killed in both sides. Fighters could re-enter the woods at several different points, one of which was on the edge of the Old Archery Field. At Pennsic XIV, one of the competing forces marshalled at the top of the Runestone Hill before marching down to enter the Woods. Another year, the attacking force (one force had already entered the woods) mustered on the Old Archery Field itself. Of course, now, all three areas are used for camping. Lyle FitzWilliam, who loves to reminisce every now and then... ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lyle H. Gray Internet (personal): gray at cs.umass.edu Quodata Corporation Phone: (203) 728-6777, FAX: (203) 247-0249 From: sherman at trln.lib.unc.edu (dennis r. sherman) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Serengeti hints.... Date: 12 Aug 1993 13:21:50 GMT Organization: Triangle Research Libraries Network (Lyle FitzWilliam) writes: >Runestone Hill, as I have heard, use to be the main battlefield. Actually, if you want to go back a bit further, what you call the Old Archery Field used to be the main battlefield. If I can find them and find room while packing, I'll take pictures to the Rialto party. (I'll be late, as Atlantian Court is Thursday night too, and I'm not missing it!) -- Robyyan Torr d'Elandris Kapellenberg, Windmaster's Hill Atlantia Dennis R. Sherman Triangle Research Libraries Network dennis_sherman at unc.edu Univ. of North Carolina - Chapel Hill Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: chanson at marcie.wellesley.edu Subject: Pennsics past (was: Serengeti hints) Organization: WELLESLEY COLLEGE Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1993 20:34:03 GMT Lyle FitzWilliam adds more Survival/Serengeti advice, then goes on: >Runestone Hill, as I have heard, use to be the main battlefield. >When I was at Pennsic XIII, I camped on the Old Archery Field, on the far side >of the lake. There were three or four tents there. >In the Woods Battle that year (you all know, the one with the causeway...), at >Resurrection Point there was a little table set up, where they checked you in, >[...] >At Pennsic XIV, one of the competing forces marshalled at the top of the >Runestone Hill before marching down to enter the Woods. Another year, the >attacking force (one force had already entered the woods) mustered on the Old >Archery Field itself. >Of course, now, all three areas are used for camping. You call that "reminiscing"? Why, young man, *I* was at Pennsic VI, the first Pennsic at Cooper's Lake. Everyone camped on the one hillside - dunno what you call it now, from the highest point next to Great Eastern Highway, down to the woods. We camped around the edges, leaving enough empty space in the middle for courts, mustering of troops, and the champions' battles. 'Course in those days, we had *Champion's* Battles: five one-on-one bouts, each between two champions in a different weapons form; none of these small armies you kids have nowadays. (Champions' battles nowadays are bigger than the field battles of the first few Pennsics, but I wasn't at them!) Heck, one war point was decided by single combat between King Fernando and King Finnevar - these young pup kings don't do *that* anymore these days. (Finnevar won.) And the field battle was in the upper field that's the Tuchux' camp these days I hear - and it wasn't even worth a war point! And how do you think the Old Archery Field got its name, anyway, eh? Now, if you want some *real* reminiscing, who out there has some good Pennsic IV stories? (Not many, 'cause they've probably already left for Coopers' Lake.) Kale/Caleb (The facts above are true. Only the tone of voice has been altered for dramatic effect.) From: gray at ibis.cs.umass.edu (Lyle Gray) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Pennsics past Date: 12 Aug 1993 17:14:22 GMT Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst chanson at marcie.wellesley.edu writes: ]You call that "reminiscing"? Why, young man, *I* was at Pennsic VI ... All right, I'm a "young man". No argument. But I also happen to be one of three people who's been active for the longest period of time in my barony (one of the two others is the Baroness...) ]first Pennsic at Cooper's Lake. Everyone camped on the one hillside ]- dunno what you call it now, from the highest point next to Great Eastern ]Highway, down to the woods. It's called "Runestone Hill" or "Runestone Field", depending on whom you ask. ]Heck, one war point was decided by single combat between King ]Fernando and King Finnevar - these young pup kings don't do *that* anymore ]these days. (Finnevar won.) Now, _that_ would be interesting to see. ]And the field battle was in the upper field that's the Tuchux' camp ]these days I hear - and it wasn't even worth a war point! And how ]do you think the Old Archery Field got its name, anyway, eh? Well, I hadn't heard the first part, but I _did_ know how the Old Archery Field got its name (even though a yunker, I still know _some_ things... ;-) ) ]Now, if you want some *real* reminiscing, who out there has some ]good Pennsic IV stories? (Not many, 'cause they've probably already ]left for Coopers' Lake.) I picked up a few from Sir Emric last weekend, including an additional piece to the story about Angus dubh MacTarbh (ah, close enough spelling, I guess) and his famous fall into the mud while wearing a pig-faced bascinet. Seems that Angus had actually tried to fall _backwards_, but there was a sapling behind him that bent backwards, and then threw him onto his face. >Kale/Caleb Lyle FitzWilliam (who's perfectly content to be called a "young man") ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lyle H. Gray Internet (personal): gray at cs.umass.edu Quodata Corporation Phone: (203) 728-6777, FAX: (203) 247-0249 --(My opinions are my own, and do not represent my employer's opinions)-- Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: sclark at epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Clark) Subject: Re: Pennsics past Organization: University of Toronto - EPAS Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1993 18:55:31 GMT Greetings! If you want to see a whole slew of these early Pennsic stories, stop by the Eoforwic camp (if it actually exists this year--our location is so bad that people are baling like crazy) and ask for Duke Finvarr himself. Ask him to tell you about his umbrella and Pennsic IV. Also, if you can lay your hands on a copy, the book from Pennsic XX had a whole history of Pennsic in it.... Regards Nicolaa/Susan sclark at epas.utoronto.ca Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: chanson at marcie.wellesley.edu Subject: Re: Pennsics past Organization: WELLESLEY COLLEGE Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1993 02:50:51 GMT Lyle FitzWilliam writes: >chanson at marcie.wellesley.edu writes: [that's me] >]first Pennsic at Cooper's Lake. Everyone camped on the one hillside >]- dunno what you call it now, from the highest point next to Great Eastern >]Highway, down to the woods. >It's called "Runestone Hill" or "Runestone Field", depending on whom you ask. No, no, not the Runestone Field hill, the other one, on the other side of the big ditch/pond/rough terrain. (I may have confused you by citing the wrong road name. We didn't have road names in the old days. We didn't have roads!) Runestone Field was all mundane territory, as was everything except our side of the one hill (even the other face - north or west-facing? - of our hill was mundane campers and RV's). >]Heck, one war point was decided by single combat between King >]Fernando and King Finnevar - these young pup kings don't do *that* anymore >]these days. (Finnevar won.) >Now, _that_ would be interesting to see. Frankly, I think it would be a good thing in many ways. Among other things, of all the war points it would be over fastest. Among the drawbacks, it would be impossible now for all interested parties to watch it. >I picked up a few from Sir Emric last weekend, including an additional piece >to the story about Angus dubh MacTarbh (ah, close enough spelling, I guess) >and his famous fall into the mud while wearing a pig-faced bascinet. Seems >that Angus had actually tried to fall _backwards_, but there was a sapling >behind him that bent backwards, and then threw him onto his face. Certainly a close enough spelling. I seem to recall that that particular fall happened at Pennsic V. (Just because there was mud doesn't mean it had to be Pennsic Pour. We had plenty of mud in the old days. Then later we got stew, and taxes.) (That's a literary allusion, for them young folks what don't read the classics.) But I could be wrong, and it's a good story either war. >Lyle FitzWilliam (who's perfectly content to be called a "young man") Kale/Caleb (who means no offense, and is glad Lyle takes none) From: nusbache at epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Pennsic population Date: 15 Sep 1993 13:31:02 -0400 Organization: EPAS Computing Facility, University of Toronto PA142548 at utkvm1.utk.edu (T. Archer) writes: >But I am not comfortable with excluding the founders of Pensic, which we seem >to have taken over, by adding additional rules to the event. I'll certainly >not call anyone's honor into question, but I am not comfortable with it. Chew on this. Pennsic was founded as an SCA event and held at sites around Ohio and western Pennylvania. The site moved almost every year. Dagan found the Cooper's Lake campground -- I don't know how, nor do I especially care. For several years, Pennsic coexisted with other campers, mostly equipped with sailboats, not bunny-fur. Eventually Pennsic War took over the site. The Tuchucks have also been renting Cooper's Lake (though not, I don't believe, the whole site) for years for having Tuchuk events. They still do, so far as I know. Perhaps a Tuchuck buddy told Dagan about Cooper's, leading him to make inquiries which led to renting the site. Big deal. If a WWI re-enactor had told him, would we be morally bound to allow Lee-Enfield rifles? Of course not. Perhaps the Tuchucks started to rent space from the Cooper's before Pennsic VI. So what -- so did a lot of people. Get a grip on the facts before you start to agonise about fine points of moral obligation. Aryk Nusbacher Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: "Michael Squires" <mikes at cs.indiana.edu> Subject: Pennsic history (was Re: Pennsic population Keywords: Pennsic Organization: Computer Science, Indiana University Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1993 11:23:01 -0500 Susan Clark <sclark at epas.utoronto.ca> wrote: > The Tuchux did not invent Pennsic. There were at least fofour >or five Pennsics held at other sites before Cooper's Lake became its >permanent home. And I have this odd feeling that the story about the 'chux >"discovering" Cooper's Lake is somewhat of an urban legend. (I've heard >at least one other story.....) though they may have indeed been using >Cooper's Lake for their own events before the SCA. Pennsics I through V were held elsewhere. My understanding is that the problems with Pennsics IV and V were such that a new site was needed, and Cooper's Lake Campground was familiar to the SCA through the Barony-Marche of the Debatable Lands. The BMDL held some events at Cooper's Lake Campground before Pennsic VI, although Duke Sir Dagan of the Middle was involved somethow in setting up Pennsic VI. Cooper's Lake was chosen jointly by the East and the Middle, although apparently the original agreement has been lost (about four years ago the only agreement still on record was the agreement between the Exchequers of the East and the Middle). The story I was told about the creation of the Tuchux says that Wolf the Mighty started the Tuchux after some contact with the BMDL as a way of having fun with some of the best students in his martial arts school. -- Mike Squires (mikes at cs.indiana.edu) 812 855 3974 (w) 812 333 6564 (h) mikes at cs.indiana.edu 546 N Park Ridge Rd., Bloomington, IN 47408 Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: mikes at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (michael squires) Subject: Re: Childrens rules at Pennsic Organization: Indiana University Date: Fri, 29 Jul 1994 16:36:13 GMT DSBurns at mke.ab.com (Dennis Burns ) writes: >1) A s to the BSA/GSA I run a youth group at my local church, I have taken the >children camping why can't an adult who has taken responsibility for a >youth not genetically linked to them to pennsic? Up until about Pennsic XIV or thereabouts Pennsic ran on the same rules as other events; a minor needed only a minor's waiver which indicated who had been delegated parental responsiblity. As a result of a number of serious incidents where minors came to harm or were in real danger of serious harm, plus the size of the camp (which caused PA local and state authorities to become interested) the Coopers/Wilvers decided that in order to limit their personal liability they had to require that a legal guardian/parent be present when a minor was admitted to camp. They resisted this for some years, but eventually their exposure to liability became so great that they had to change the rules. -- Michael L. Squires, Ph.D Manager of Instructional Computing, Freshman Office, Chemistry Department, IU Bloomington, IN 47405 812-855-0852 (o) 81-333-6564 (h) mikes at indiana.edu, mikes at ucs.indiana.edu, or mikes at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu From: mms6824 at tntech.edu Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Childrens rules at Pennsic Date: 31 Jul 94 16:16:37 -0600 Organization: Tennessee Tech University > Edmund also writes, responding to Patri's point about scout camps and > the like, "Remember, Pennsic is held in the COMMONWEALTH OF > PENNSYVANIA. The laws are different there." There are also, in > Pennsylvania, scout camps, martial arts studios with minor customers, > judo tournments, summer camps, and lots of others things which > Edward's arguments prove cannot exist. > > One of the things I have observed on the Rialto (and elsewhere) is > the willingness of a lot of people, especially those with no > particular knowledge of law, to accept without question legal > explanations for why it is necessary to do certain things--even when > there is lots of evidence to the contrary. This particular set of > arguments was hashed out on the Rialto a couple of years ago. Nobody > then came up with any evidence that there were special legal problems > in Pennsylvania making it impractical to allow minors at Pennsic > without their parents, and I have seen no such evidence since. If > Edward has some to present, I will of course be interested to see it. > > David/Cariadoc abu Patri Your Grace, As a former resident, and certrified School Teacher in the State of Pennsylvania, I can come up with several laws that relate here. In the first case, before I could go into the public schools to teach in the state of PA, I had to have a backround check done through the State Police, if I had been a resident of the state for at least the past year, if not the check had to have been done through the FBI. This was done to determine if I had any past child related offences. And while not the Law for all groups sponsoring child/teen activities, many other groups are requireing this same procedure for their employees/volunteers to protect themselves. A parent dropping off an underage teenager at Pennsic, could be charged with neglect. We are not a group such as the Boy Scouts or other types of Child/teen oriented groups that have the "Responsible Adult Suppervision" of Children and Teens. THIS is the difference between the examples that you are citing and the SCA. And I don't believe that the person incharge of Childrens activiities is willing to be put in this position, or should be required to bein this position. We require the PARENT or LEGAL GUARDIAN to be the Responsible Adult Supervisor of their own children. As someone who has been involved with the running of Pennsic on several occasions. I can remember many times where in the wee hours of the morning, a "parent" has Security looking all of the War for their missing child that they haven't seen all day. OR how about the group of older teenagers, who managed to get ahold of a rather large amount of alcohol and went out into the woods for a party? As I remember that incident ended up with a 15 year old alternating between being passed out and pucking his guts out in Chiurgeon's Point, d*mn near having alcohol poisoning. Or the young teenage girl who was being inappropriately touched by a person in the Merchant area? You and you lady have raised a fine young man. And I know of many good and responsible young people in the SCA, not to mention their parents. Your parenting style suits you. However, there is a large difference between allowing a child/teen to find their limits and neglect, admittedily at times it may be in the eyes of the beholder. The touchstone I try to use is: Is the child/teen being harmed? Is the parent available to the child/teen? You and your lady are, many are not. Your's in service - Marian of Clann Kyle From: pat at lloyd.com (Pattie McGregor) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Childrens rules at Pennsic Date: 30 Jul 1994 11:28:07 -0700 Organization: House Northmark, Mountains' Gate, Cynagua, The West Summary: Teens are particularly vulnerable at Pennsic Keywords: children, curfew, pennsic, fairness Greetings from Siobhan, who will not be able to make it to Pennsic this year (alas!) and especially greetings to Patri.. I am the mother of a 15-year veteran of Pennsic who happens to be 14.5 years old, and so I do understand your reasonable concerns. I am thrilled that my daughter is still interested in activities in the SCA (waiver problems notwithstanding), and that there are more things which she can do there these days. I do also know that teens have proven to be extremely vulnerable to some dangers that are magnified at Pennsic than some others have been, and I do reluctantly agree that we have to make some restrictions. The medical and legal reasons are very clear to me: in the past we have had teens dropped off by parents (or who heard about Pennsic and took off in a carload and arrived, without a clue) at the gate, expecting to be picked up in 4-6 days. I am glad I was not an autocrat, landowner, or paramedic who had to sort out the restrictions to treat one of those children in an emergency. But there are some other things which happen which make it clear to me that we must attempt to protect our teens. Granted, most of the stories I have heard involved young women: and since my child is female, I am particularly moved by those. Ihave heard only a few about young men, tho, and they are equally scary. Most, alas, involve drugs, sex, alcohol, and medical problems. As an aside, it occurs to me that if you are attending your father's bardic, or dancing where Elizabeth is playing for the music, you are, indeed, near your parents. And no one has dropped you off to fend for yourself without anyone to watch over you. It's _those_ folk who worry me. Let's consider a couple of cases: * The 15-year old daughter of a local seneschal and her friend are wandering the camp during an evening meeting where her father is in attendance. They look more like 18 year old's in the garb they are wearing. A group of older teens/college kids invite them to a party: while there, they drink a great deal of beer and vodka-spiked punch. The 15-year old passes out: wakes up in a supply tent, her clothing in disarray, her underwear no where to be seen. Her companion, a 14-year old who is there without her parents (but permission papers have been given to the other child's father/seneschal), is taken against her will up into the woods by a group of much older men: her screaming is heard by the watch at the horde camp, who arrive and disperse the group, escorting the girl back to her camp. (paraphrase of a true incident) * A 17-year old boy who has slipped into the camp by lying on his troll form goes out partying with his buds: he drinks a great deal and discovers that he has a severe allergy to alcohol. His friends think he's merely drunk and dump him in his tent to sleep it off. A chirurgeon hears the noises he is making and gets him to the paramedics; they treat the emergency but can't contact his parents, nor do they know his insurance information. (a rumor) * The 16-year old daughter of a reigning prince meets a very nice fighter during the war. She tells her mom that she is going to walk the camp with him. 8 hours later, after mom has raised the watch to try and find her, she stumbles into the back side of the incampment with a story that she has been 'date raped.' She doesn't want to see the man again to press charges; he claims she initiated the sexual incident and he didn't know she was only 16. (paraphrase) * the watch finds a young boy, about 15-ish, lying in the grass by a privy in a stupor. He is in severe insulin reaction. He does not have any ID on him. He does not have a waiver on file with the troll. He is wearing a tie-dyed tunic and a pair of blue-jeans. No on knows who he is. He is taken to the hospital, where after 4 days the sheriff finally finds a match with a missing child flyer. He's from Florida, and came up to "the party" because he read something on a bulletin board about how neat it was. (blend of two incidents) * Visiting a friend who has two teenagers, a girl and a boy, you ask how they are doing at the War. "I don't know," says the father, I haven't seen them in days. I'm not even sure [she] slept in the camp last night." ("she" is 13.) All of these incidents could have _extremely_ nasty outcomes. Most of the stories you hear at pennsic are of the "close shave" variety; some are ugly and filled with real danger, both physical and emotional. Some of the lady peers have decided to form households where they take young women under their watch to give them a known circle: to help protect them by including them. I've made sure the chivalry know that "that young girl, who looks 18 but is really only 14.5," is Aldric's and mine, so that if they see her in iffy situations they will be more minded to help. I confess, I'm using "peer" pressure and social advantage to make sure my child is better armed against problems. I've looked fighters straight in the eye when they make a sexual comment about her and reminded them that she is not of age, and that I know they will help me make sure that no one takes advantage of her. I am trying to make the 'enchanted ground' of our events safer not only for my child but for others -- it's hard work. Most of the kids at Pennsic, of almost all ages, are going to be OK. Some are not. Unfortunately, and particularly because Pennsylvania has such strict laws about such things (and they do: I am told by an ex-pennsylavania boyscout leader that special permission forms for Pennsylvania are used by the Boy Scouts there), the Coopers, and the SCA, must take unusual and distateful steps to protect those children who will _not_ be OK. I have been disappointed by this, too. The first year it was implemented it turned my plans upside down; I had looked forward to bringing a teen to help with the kids: pay her/his way and food-board in return for a reliable person to watch littles while went to peerage meetings, attended the Royalty, and so on. Not possible now unless I can find a college student, and most of them have things they want to be doing on their own. So this is a hardship for parents, as well. But since we now can't trust in the safety of Pennsic as we once did, we need to make rules to try and protect ourselves and our children. Now, let me mount my soapbox for a moment. Flame alert coming. If we could trust each other, in the spirit of the SCA that we all brag about so often, we wouldn't have to have these rules. I am astounded when I hear about belted fighters (pardon me if I don't call them knights) preying on underage girls, getting them drunk and persuading them to have sex, and then laughing about it in the morning. Where's the chivalry in that? Having a Duke tell me that he thinks they should stamp "jailbait" on the forehead of any girl under 18 outrages me: don't these men even ask age and name before they take a woman out in the woods? Before they get her drunk? I've heard recently the African saying "It takes a whole village to raise a child." Where is our vaunted SCA village? Where are the older teens taking watch of the younger ones? Where are the adults who will notice when an unknown youngster is around the campfire and seems to be drinking (when s/he is likely underage) and will take some time to counsel and protect? End soapbox. I think your concerns, Patri, are valid; your venom is not. You're not proving to me that you have a reasonable ability to argue your side of the point without being insulting. As the mom of a teenager, I know I have to listen extra hard when my child, because of her strong feelings on a topic, resorts to venom, but those here listening who have not that experience will only see another whiny teen. You can help your cause better if you argue more dispassionately. regards, siobhan =========================================================================== Siobhan Medhbh O'Roarke / Pat McGregor Sharing her time between Crosston & 3331 Kimberly Road Mountain's Gate/Golden Rivers Cameron Park, CA 95682 pat at cygnus.com (916) 677-6607 siobhan at lloyd.com From: Raven <JSINGLE at MUSIC.LIB.MATC.EDU> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Childrens rules at Pennsic Date: 31 JUL 94 10:41:32 EST Organization: Milwaukee Area Technical College pat at lloyd.com (Pattie McGregor) writes: >I do also know that teens have proven to be extremely vulnerable to >some dangers that are magnified at Pennsic than some others have been, >and I do reluctantly agree that we have to make some restrictions. > >The medical and legal reasons are very clear to me: in the past we have >had teens dropped off by parents (or who heard about Pennsic and took >off in a carload and arrived, without a clue) at the gate, expecting to be >picked up in 4-6 days. I am glad I was not an autocrat, landowner, or >paramedic who had to sort out the restrictions to treat one of those children >in an emergency. > >But there are some other things which happen which make it clear to me >that we must attempt to protect our teens. [multiple ghastly horror stories omitted] A few years ago, the Moritu Dark Horde, led by Todric Koenig, provided the security for a Pennsic War. Todric Khan later recounted to me some very similar incidents of that War, not only involving underage drinking and apparent molestation, but also involving children much younger than 12 wandering lost and hungry and frightened in the night, in more than one case children under 5 left unsupervised near fires and weapons (and one such who was disarmed just as about to hit another child with a real sword) -- and the security personnel were roundly abused for intervening in these cases... by parents/guardians who, in some cases, had been sleeping in their tents, assumed other adults would look after their children, and were only annoyed at being woken up to be informed of the contrary. After the stress of dealing with these situations and gripes for the week of the War, the Moritu decided not to repeat the offer of security -- at least, not under the social conditions now prevalent. There was some discussion of that War on the Rialto, some messages complaining about the intrusive security people, and I tried to post Todric Khan's response. I don't know if it was seen here, though, because my post attempt was made through Fidonet, and I never saw it acknowledged. Perhaps Master Ioseph of Locksley remembers it, since he was active in that discussion? If not, I have to assume the post never made it from Fidonet to the Rialto.... "Raven" (JSingle at Music.Lib.MATC.Edu) Milwaukee, Wisconsin USA From: mjc+ at cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Not (just) a Cooper rule (was: Pennsic children's rules) Date: 2 Aug 94 13:47:28 GMT Organization: Carnegie-Mellon University, School of Computer Science My memory of the origin of this rule was different from what most people here seemed to be saying, so I called the secretary of the Pennsic Council (who also has regular contact with the Coopers) and asked. The rule was developed *jointly* by the Coopers and the staff of either Pennsic XVI or XVII. This is not a case of the Coopers instituting a rule themselves; both they and "the SCA" (as represented by that year's autocrat) wanted it. Apparently, no autocrat since then has tried to change it. Ellisif From: mjc+ at cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: We're having *what* for dinner? (Was: Kosher Locusts) Date: 4 Aug 94 04:53:04 GMT Organization: Carnegie-Mellon University, School of Computer Science > One problem, Aleksandr -- isn't it still against East Kingdom law (and >Pennsic rules) to slaughter animals? East Kingdom law is silent on the subject. However, after an unfortunate incident involving an injured pig running loose through camp, the Coopers instituted a rule against slaughtering on site. Ellisif From: folo at prairienet.org (F.L. Watkins) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Pennsic: Odd Thoughts & Questions Date: 23 Aug 1994 23:42:20 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Pennsic IV was, if rumor was correct, taking place in a disaster area. The streets of Cleveland (which was nearby) was flooding. Like this year, it had been raining a lot before; unlike this year, it was raining continuously throughout the weekend (in those days, Pennsic was a single weekend, believe it or don't). I guess I'd give this year a 5 or a 6. IMHO only of course. What security was saying about the fire was that it was a natural gas well fire. It was certainly contained; throughout the time we were watching it up at the top of the Runestone hill, it did not move much. For people who didn't see it: you missed something. The sky looked as though the sun was coming up, and the flames were dancing above the tree tops of the hill in the distance. I had just got back from taking my wife to the Emergency Room and couldn't sleep. A friend & I saw the smoke first and assumed it was a nasty cloud at first. Then Jeff noted the fire. It was so tall that I assumed that it had to be closer--much closer--than it was and wondered who set the bonfire in the MidRealm Royal Encampment (and then speculated that it was Rolac, who did build a huge bonfire at Pennsic IV and who was on site...). I was veryu surprised when the Independent didn't mention it; I understand the\ Chronicle did, but getting copies was like pulling teeth... We left Pennsic earlier than we had in years...maybe ever. It felt a little funky and likened the whole thing to refugees fleeing from a war zone. It was, however, nice, to check into a hotel in Columbus (traditional halfway home) in the daylight. Yrs, Folo -- Damin de Folo - F.L.Watkins - folo at prairienet.org Baron Wurm Wald (MidRealm) - Commander Baldwin's (NWTA) From: folo at prairienet.org (F.L. Watkins) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Pennsic 'Golfcart'? Date: 23 Aug 1994 13:46:18 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Youngsters, youngsters, youngsters: at least at this Pennsic, I didn't have to hump all my belongings out on my back, wading through mud up over my ankles a half a mile (it may have only been a quarter, but it felt like four or five). I was able, after being winched (with an I) out of the parking lot, to drive up to my booth, load and drive out. I didn't have to throw away my boots afterwards either. For a name, how about Pennsic Puddle Lite? Yrs, Folo (who still has mudstains on some of the stuff he took to Pennsic IV...) -- Damin de Folo - F.L.Watkins - folo at prairienet.org Baron Wurm Wald (MidRealm) - Commander Baldwin's (NWTA) From: mchance at crl.com (Michael A. Chance) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Pennsic, wars in general Date: 1 Sep 1994 15:57:51 -0700 Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access His Grace, Duke Vissevald Selkirksson writes: >willey at lard (Richard E. Willey) writes: >>I'm not sure whether Calontir has ever fought with the east (I believe they >>have in the past). However, Calontir hasn't fielded nearly as large forces in >>the past two years as it traditionally has. I hope this isn't a long term >>trend, but Calontir wasn't as significant a force this year as it has been. >Calontir has fought with the East once. I think it was around Pennsic XIV or >so. That was, I believe, Pennsic XV. Asgeirr and Miriam were on the throne, and Calontir and Atlantia switched their traditional alliances. I still have a fond memory of the opening ceremony, held on the road at the top of the Runefield, with Asgeirr, standing behind the Eastern King (Ronald Wilmot?). Very quitely, as the speeches droned on, Asgeirr started bouncing up and down. Pretty soon, nearly all of the Calontiri in the crowd were doing it, too. The Eastern King, confused by the sight of lots of folks bouncing up and down in near unison, looked behind him to see what was going on. Asgeirr immediately stopped as soon as the Eastern King started turning, and then flashed one of his patented "Yes, Your Majesty?" grins, as if he both knew some secret joke and had no idea what the Eastern Crown might have been looking for. And yes, the Calontir force was considerably smaller than usual this year. For a variety of reason, most of the Chivalry and Huscarls, and a good portion of the Fyrd, stayed home this year, resulting in a force of about 40-50, not counting auxiliaries. Most reports that I've heard still account them as a major force for the Midrealm in all of the battles. Lots of us are imagining what might have happened if the rest of the army had made it out. Mikjal Annarbjorn -- Michael A. Chance St. Louis, Missouri, USA "At play in the fields Work: mc307a at sw1stc.sbc.com of St. Vidicon" Play: mchance at crl.com mchance at nyx.cs.du.edu From: mabr at sweden.hp.com (Morgan "the Dreamer" Broman) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Pennsic, wars in general Date: 2 Sep 1994 07:56:41 GMT Organization: HP/SCA/SKA/FSTS/AMTS/SLRP/ETC Sweden Calontir fought with the East at Pennsic XV, Ronald was King of the East. It was my first Pennsic war and I was impressed by the way the Calontirians took the lower bridge back, clinching a victory for us. Ciao Morgan// ....veni, vidi, vici...;) HP : Morgan Broman mabr at sweden.hp.com From: David Schroeder <ds4p+ at andrew.cmu.edu> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: pennsic veggies Date: Tue, 29 Nov 1994 07:12:47 -0500 Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Hi folks... > In article <01HJO4H4V8429D52HW at delphi.com>, <ALBAN at delphi.COM> wrote: > >Ranvaig said, in regard to large purple carrots being grown by > >near-Pennsic farmers: > >>I have often wondered why no one merchants food. One of my favorite memories of early Coopers Lake Pennsics was giving the Coopers a dollar for a dozen ears of fresh sweet corn for the pot for supper from the field of corn that grew about where the food concessions are today. One seldom gets corn that fresh these days... My best -- Bertram From: salley at niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Identification Friend/Foe Date: 12 Jan 95 03:44:37 GMT Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208 > Greetings from Lothar, > At Pennsic it would be Period and make sense for every fighter to > put the badge of his kingdom or mercenary unit on his tabard or shield and > for large fighting units to have a banner or standard which they would carry > with them into battle. Banners are forbidden in the wood's battles. One year Rhydderich Hael captured the tabard of the Midrealm Prince, tied a short sword to a spear with a squires belt and draped the tabard over it with the intention of waving a red flag in front of a bull to get more action. The banner was mistaken for a war banner by midrealm scouts and the middle army wasted a lot of time trying to recover it. The powers-that-be have since declared that "false banners" are a dis-honorable act and banned all standards except the War Point Banner from the woods ;-( - Dagonell SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr Habitat : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, RHYDDERICH HAEL Barony Internet : salley at niktow.cs.canisius.edu (Reply does NOT work!! :-( ) USnail-net : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029 From: steffan at world.std.COM (Steven H Mesnick) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Breafast poll Date: 12 Mar 1995 00:57:45 -0500 Organization: The Internet For me, the One True Breakfast at Pennsic is Sated Tyger Gruel. For the uninitiated, *real* gruel is non-disgusting. Gruel in literature is disgusting because it's always described as *watery*, i.e. *bad* gruel. Gruel is simply (yesterday's) beef stew mixed with (today's) oatmeal.... The Sated Tyger was the fabled first Inn at Pennsic, the first public food-service establishment at the War. The proprietor was Johan von Traubenberg, the Chief Cook was Old Marian of Edwinstowe, and Elspeth Keyfe of Neddingham was a counter-wench and cook. Marian and Elspeth now run the Battlefield Bakery. Steffan ap Cennydd From: us002743 at pop3.interramp.com (Thomas A. Kozak) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Pennsic Departure Time Date: Sun, 04 Jun 1995 07:12:35 GMT Organization: UBS Casual NCC-REVOKED "woody(webersol at epix.net)" <webersol at grape.epix.net> wrote: >As for other campers, the majority of coopers campground is unused >except for pennsic . Perhaps, while at War, you've noticed the large number of trailers and boats parked near the parking lot. Some of these are stored there regularly; many more are actually sitting on site from September to July. The Coopers haul all of them out there before Pennsic and drag them back afterwards. Granted, that doesn't make the campground any more "used" in the areas away from the trailer plots, but most of the business of Cooper's Lake comes from trailer camping, not individual tenters. I've been there on a few non-SCA occasions; I've even been there early enough for War to watch them move the trailers. By and large, the campground is used and enjoyed by everyone there all year long. >Improvments? where? we still have the same things there as were available >10 years ago. i.e. cold showers, bad water, mud >If some-one wants to rent a space for continued camping,What's the problem? >That's why the coopers are in buisness. >Woody Ebersold webersol at epix.net The shower situation is always easy to complain about, isn't it? When Pennsic began at Cooper's Lake (PW VI), there were only showers available in the Bath House, and (I believe) only two wells for campground use. Around 500 gentles attended VI, and they had a total of 6 showers. That's 1 stall per 83 people. By Pennsic XX, the Cooper's had built the Solar Showers, the Runestone Bathhouse, and had sunk at least two more wells for the campground. (None of these items are really needed for their normal business, as most of the trailers have their own showers on board and the tent campers were usually few enough that the Bath House could handle the load.) Thus, at Pennsic XX, there were around 8000 gentles in attendance and a total of 32 stalls. That's one stall per 250 people. Not an ideal margin, but a lot better than the one per 1330 ratio we'd have if the Cooper's had made no improvements which would be used only at Pennsic. (Yes, the Runestone Bath House is used all year, but the Solars were built just for us.) (The best bet for a hot shower, of course, is to build one. Come by Darkyard this year and see how it's done...) Bad water? Yeah, it's well water, but given the amazing number of news reports about filth in municipal water systems, having nothing but some extra mineral content in you drinking water should be a welcome change. As for the mud: One of the major ongoing improvement projects has been the paving of the major roads. "Ten years ago," the only paved roads were directly adjacent to the barn. Now, they extend from halfway down Runestone Hill to the Troll, with the hill up the other side (on the Great Eastern Hwy) included. Mud is nasty, depressing, and downright foul-smelling (especially on the Serengeti, which was fertilized with manure for decades), but it's also decidedly dangerous on the hills around the lake. Now that those roads are paved, it's no longer an issue. As for the rest of the War...Hell, it's camping, right? You're OUTDOORS. Rain, mud, snow, hail, and freak windstorms are to be expected. It's part of the ambiance, or somesuch. Get over it. Other improvements to the site in the last ten years include the laundry, the larger and much better stocked Camp Store, six additional pay phones (plus the little trailer near Troll), water lines into the Serengeti, and the Parking Shuttle. None of this stuff would have been necessary to the campground if we didn't show up every August with more and more people. Sure, the normal campers use the improvements too, and I'd likely be wrong if I thought our money didn't make it easy to upgrade the site, but in the end I doubt that most of these improvements would have come about if we weren't there. Of course, I could be wrong. Really, Cooper's Lake has not been bad to us. (And those shower lines are excellent places to meet people, write a novel, or sing 2000-odd verses of "Old Time Religion.") In the end, it's still a campground, not a hotel, and there are only so many things you can do to a campground. Be seeing you. Thomas A. Kozak Lord Abiron Blacavar von Metz, House Darkyard Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: animals/pets From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 95 08:56:32 EDT connect at aol.com (CONNECT) writes: > Any camping event I go to, I make sure I can bring my beagle. I was very > disappointed to read in the pennsic handbook you can't bring dogs, so I > guess I'll never go to Pennsic. Is this a new rule? > > Yours In Service, > Rosalyn MacGregor of Glen Orchy > > * Patricia Snyder-Rayl * (313) 973-8825 > * CONNECT Magazine * (800) GET-CONNECT Respected friend: Not particularly... My miniature Siamese cross, Swartalf, being attacked by somebody's Rotweiler cross was one of the many incidents which led to the ban. (She wupped 'im good.) That was Pennsic 9 or 10. I think the final straw was the folks who brought a `pet goat', which some of the employees petted and fed, who later got slaughtered on-site. (On purpose; presumably for dinner.) However, I'm told there are several excellent boarding kennels near the Pennsic site. I know several people who bring and board their dogs, and whoever's doing the day's supply run to town stops and plays with them. (there's a nearby stable, too.) So "don't go" isn't the only option... Yours in service to the Society- (Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk R.S.F. Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf C.O.L. SCA Una Wicca (That Pict) From: jvincent at eagle.wesleyan.edu (The Ulair) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: FULL SCALE SEIGE WEAPONS!!!!!! Date: 29 Aug 95 11:25:50 EST Organization: Wesleyan University (This is a tad off the subject, but I'll say it anyway.) I remember the full-scale trebuchet built at Pennsic 18 by a medieval studies student (even got to watch him fire it to see if the rate of fire mentioned by some sources was feasible). It would be nice to see more items like that about. -Eirik From: ddfr at best.com (David Friedman) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Founding of Markland? Date: 8 Sep 1995 08:17:05 GMT Organization: Best Internet Communications > We have often had cross-pollination between the two groups, in fact in > the Pennsic annual, when photos are printed of previous years, we've > seen Markland members pictured in single-digit Pennsic years. ... > > Aeldra DeGodervya There were Marklanders at Pennsic 1. David/Cariadoc -- ddfr at best.com From: baronfum at aol.com (Baron Fum) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Loser Gets Pitt (was "Bigest interkingdom war/event") Date: 3 Dec 1995 22:42:26 -0500 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Swami corrects me- Pennsic V was also in Ohio, along with IV. The rest were definitely in Pennsylvania. Pennsic as a name came very early because of the play on the first and second Punic wars (many wars having been caused by puns, and others having been caused by pens). Ritter Baron Karl Aerdigwidder von Zauberberg, C.P. Baron Andelcrag, Middle Kingdom Saepe errabimus sed semper honore! Morte ex morte From: foxd at silver.ucs.indiana.edu (daniel fox) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Getting to Pennsic (was Re: Loser Gets Pitt, etc) Date: 4 Dec 1995 06:40:02 GMT Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington Most of my memories of Pennsic IV were of the inside of a leaky tent, and seeing how long I could wait before I HAD to run to the porta-johns.... However, the one that stands out was as I sloshed up the hill, trying not to fall into the hip deep ruts left by the tractors (which spent most of the weekend pulling each other out of the mud as I recall) and carrying my suitcases one in each hand. I passed a friend dressed in Japanese garb, and a big straw hat. As I gained on him, I said: "Don't just stand there, Daishi, plant rice!" It was much easier hurrying with an irate Japanese guy on my tail..... Audelindis de Rheims From: baronfum at aol.com (Baron Fum) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Getting to Pennsic (was Re: Loser Gets Pitt, etc) Date: 4 Dec 1995 13:29:57 -0500 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) I think my most comical memory of Pennsic IV was when Dagan du Derragonne and I, fighting as a two man polearm buddy team, came across Duke Angus and a friend. I went forward and attacked to get them to follow and fell back so they would come into Dagan's range. Angus ended up face down with his pig-faced bascinet stuck in the mud and had to be pulled out. He somehow seemed to fit in that place, face down in the mud. I also remember pulling out, following the tractor and wagon with my legs ankle deep in mud, looking at the huge pile of refuse that was left behind by our little group of refugees and thinking, "Now THIS is REAL war!" At the end Algorik of Valkarth had the only good fire because he had it set at a corner of his tent fly (which would now be definately against fire code) and was charging everyone a handfull of grass or rushed as a toll to stand around it. The mat that he had built up out of his "tax" kept his fire pit from flooding out. Ritter Baron Karl Aerdigwidder von Zauberberg, C.P. Baron Andelcrag, Middle Kingdom Saepe errabimus sed semper honore! Morte ex morte From: schuldy at abel.harvard.edu (Mark Schuldenfrei) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Loser Gets Pitt (was "Bigest interkingdom war/event") Date: 11 Dec 1995 19:28:34 GMT Organization: My own little corner. I, Tibor, had written: I think that Duke Finnvarr has made it to all of them. Something in my memory says he's fought in all of them, too. I've copied him on this note, in case I'm wrong. Garick Chamberlin <Garick at vonkopke.demon.co.uk> answered: that's what he told me a couple of months ago. I seem to recall that one other person has also fought in all of them and that one person has been to all, but was unable to fight in one. Correct. Private mail fron Finnvarr made it clearer. Yes, he has not only attended every Pennsic, and fought in every Pennsic, but more than that: "I have fought in every Pennsic War. In fact, as far as I can recall (all those blows to the head, y'know), I've fought in every point battle that I was qualified to compete in. I've never fought in the unbelted champions' battle, and seldom if ever have I been chosen individual champion when we had individual contests for points [digression deleted -- Tibor] Those exceptions aside, I have fought in every woods battle, bridge battle, town battle, field battle, etc." Long Live Finnvarr, and may he fight a thousand more! (If he wants to :-) On other folks, he mentioned were Merowald has attended all Pennsics, but didn't fight three years ago. And Foscadh O'Dubha had been to and fought at all Pennsic Wars. Tibor -- Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy at math.harvard.edu) From: hhoffman at castaway.cc.uwf.EDU Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Loser Gets Pitt (was "Bigest interkingdom war/event") Date: 11 Dec 1995 23:57:20 -0500 Organization: The Internet >Other than Duke Meriald de Sylvastan, has any one else made it to ALL the >Pensic wars? > >Satyrsong O.K. I talked to Signy Dimmraedella and asked her. (When in doubt, go straight to the source.) According to her, she and 3 other people, who all originated from Northwoods, in the Middle Kingdom, are the only 4 people who have been to every Pennsic. The other 3 are Merowald de Sylveaston, Finnvarr de Taahe, and Foscadh O Doubhda. (Please excuse any mistakes in spelling these names.) Ananda Arenal, Meridies hhoffman at castaway.cc.uwf.edu From: mjc at telerama.lm.com (Monica Cellio) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: info on Horde and Pennsic I Date: 29 Aug 1996 15:38:28 -0400 Organization: Telerama Public Access Internet, Pittsburgh, PA USA I had asked for more information on the story of the Horde being given Pennsic land as a protectorate. Here is a reply I received from Ts'vee'a bas Tseepora Levi, the person who compiled the history of Pennsic that came out for Pennsic XX. From: Gail A Lefkowitz <galst5+ at pitt.edu> Subject: Pennsic History - Pennsic I and the Horde In response to your request for information about claims by the Horde over Cooper's Lake, here is what information I could find. Feel free to post this to the Rialto if you like. I have heard the story for years, but could not locate a source regarding the Horde being given guardianship of the Pennsic Lands at Pennsic I. Though I checked Finnvarr's Tales of the Midrealm Kings, Orlando Ambrosius's History of the Middle Kingdom, Cariadoc's Miscellany, and all the correspondence I received from Andrew of Seldom Rest, Merowald de Sylveastan, Arastorm the Golden, and a variety of gentles who lived through those times, I could not find citations of this story to Pennsic I. After some research, it might be possible that this happened not at Pennsic I, but at Pennsic II. In Tales of the Midrealm Kings, Volume 1, by Finnvarr de Taahe (copyright 1982), page 43, is this tale of the Horde at Pennsic II: "...no one yet knew how many Horde warriors trained within its borders would fight for the East. The kings and queens held a long court in the torrid sun that afternoon (while sheltered under a pavilion themselves, of course) where Angus was knighted and Sean Rubuaru was made Master of Arms by the Eastern King, but that vital question remained unanswered. It was that evening, after the feast that Yang the Nauseating came before the thrones and that Finnvarr rose to invest him as his royal viceroy of the area west of the Debatable Lands, charged with their defense. Immediately Andrew popped up and likewise warranted Yang to defend that area known as Newt's Camp for the Middle. Yang was surprised but gleefully and with mock solemnity announced that the Horde, charged with such heavy responsibility for keeping the peace, had little choice but to attack whoever broke it first, even if it meant fighting both sides at once..." It might be useful to point out here that "Newt's Camp" was the site of Pennsic I, a private campground outside Waterford, PA (near Erie, PA). According to Finnvarr's account, the East appointed Yang to be guardian of the lands "West of the Debatable Lands" which would be the Shire of Afongara (West Virginia panhandle) or some part of Ohio, while the Middle appointed Yang the guardian of Newt's Camp, which would be in the Shire of Stormsport. Pennsic II was not held at Newt's Camp, but at a public park called St. Clair's Beach in Pittsburgh's South Hills. That park no longer exists, which could add some funny schtick to any discussion of it being under any SCA group's guardianship. To learn more about this story, it would probably be most helpful to go to Dukes Cariadoc, Finnvarr, and Andrew. And Yang, if he would answer correspondence... :) Thanks again for sending me the posts that have stories about Pennsic. I collect them, and hope someday to write another History of the Pennsic War. Ts'vee'a Gail Lefkowitz Whether you think you can or you can't galst5+ at pitt.edu You're right. From: ddfr at best.com (David Friedman) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Etymology of Pennsic Date: 27 Sep 1996 05:45:53 GMT In article <52erg4$en at lombardi.wctc.net>, Sara Friedemann <RandomSF at wctc.net> wrote: > Since our first exposure to the SCA I have been > trying to find the etymology of Pennsic. From "Pennsylvania" in analogy to "Punic." David/Cariadoc -- ddfr at best.com From: wwwaft at access5.digex.net (Dexter Guptill) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Looking for Book - Murder At The War? Date: 29 Oct 1996 13:48:35 -0500 Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA Kim Pollard <kim at inna.net> wrote: >I don't have it in front of me), and I think the spine is orange? I >picked this one up at Pennsic this year after hearing about it so often. >It's not bad. Moves well and covers SCA traditions pretty well, and >though it IS supposed to be set in Pennsic, it's a weekend event and the >names of people and places have been changed to protect the innocent ><grin>. Actually, the book gives a fair picture of the Pennsic before the one where I bought my first copy. Used to be field and bridge battles on Saturday, with woods on Sunday. Then you packed up Sunday afternoon or Monday morning. It's fairly typical of a Pennsic around '85-'87. *** Dexter C. Guptill, Computer Services, American Federation of Teachers *** Member, Hampden's Reg't of Foote (ECW), 49th VA Vol Inf, CSA (N-SSA) *** AKA Ld. Erich von Kleinfeld, Stierbach, Atlantia (SCA) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: orilee ireland-delfs <orilee_j_ireland-delfs at wb.xerox.com> Subject: AEthelmearc & Pennsic Organization: Xerox Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 14:07:36 GMT Because I realize that this is concern for many of you (my connection to the Rialto runs a few days behind....) I wanted to let you know what has been settled re: Pennsic now that AEthelmearc will be a Kingdom. Duchess Lisa Delorosa, Middle Kingdom Seneschal, Baroness Rhainnon the Curious, East Kingdom Seneschal, and I sat down at Pennsic 25 to work out our "working" agreement for Pennsic. Essentially, the bottom line is: AEthelmearc doesn't want it! We recognize that it is a 25 year tradition between the East and the Middle and there is no reason for AEthelmearc's change in status to interfere with that. The only trick is that the only person who can pull sanction on the event, and the person who will have to deal with any modern legal problems that come out of Pennsic, is the AEthelmearc Seneschal. So, AEthelmearc has agreed to not mess with Pennsic (attempt to change the date or location), and the East and Middle have promised to keep the AEthelmearc Seneschal "in the loop". In return, AEthelmearc gets some money to compensate us for the wear and tear on our officers and people. If you want to see the full text of the agreement, it is on the AEthelmearc Web Page (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/usr/mjc/www/aeth/aethelmearc.html) Where and how AEthelmearc as a Kingdom "plays" at Pennsic will depend upon the usual process the Kings of the East and Middle go through for allies and such. For Pennsic 27 (which will be our first as a Kingdom), that will be decided by our second King and Queen. In service to the stopping of rumors and speculation and to the dissemination of information : ) Mistress Orianna Fridrikskona Seneschal, AEthelmearc Date: Sat, 02 Nov 1996 11:16:07 -0600 To: markh at risc.sps.mot.com (Mark S. Harris) From: Chris and Elisabeth Zakes <moondrgn at flash.net> Subject: Re: Looking for Book - Murder At The War? >An earlier poster said the book had the war being just a weekend. Do >you remember when Pennsic War was just a weekend and when it changed? >I know that they've lengthened the official length at least once since >I've been in the SCA. > >Stefan li Rous My first Pennsic was #9. It was pretty much a weekend event back then, so was #10, althought there were some people who arrived a day or two early, and didn't leave until Monday. The next time we went was #16. IIRC, the "official" start was opening court, sometime on Friday, but people had been arriving since the previous weekend, so it was a de-facto week-long event by then. -Tivar From: bronwynmgn at aol.com (Bronwynmgn) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Pennsic query Date: 5 May 1997 02:20:16 GMT t5nf at aol.com (T5NF) writes: >I am wondering if it is possible to camp at Pennsic for the last few days >without being a sca member or camping with a group that has participated >in the land grab. Yes, It is. Single campers (those not pre-registering with a group) may arrive any time after August 3rd, according to the Pre-Pennsic booklet. There are usually several areas of land set aside for single campers. Those who are not SCA members pay a slightly higher fee than members do. Be aware that things have changed a bit since Pennsic 18 (my first war also). For one thing, we are running close to 10,000 people now. If I remember correctly, there were only 5700+ at Pennsic 18. New camping areas have been opened and new shower houses built. The enforcement of rules reg