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P-history-msg – 3/5/17


Pennsic history.


NOTE: See also the files: BPThingie-art, Enchnted-Grd-msg, Pennsic-ideas-msg, P-stories-msg, P-storage-msg, SCA-hist1-msg, SCA-stories1-msg, P-tale-MWIFO-art, Pennsic-IX-bk-art, Pennsic-leter-art.





This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I  have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.


This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org


I have done  a limited amount  of  editing. Messages having to do  with separate topics  were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the  message IDs  were removed to save space and remove clutter.


The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make  no claims  as  to the accuracy  of  the information  given  by the individual authors.


Please respect the time  and  efforts of  those who have written  these messages. The copyright status  of these messages  is  unclear  at this time. If information  is  published  from  these  messages, please give credit to the originator(s).


Thank you,

   Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                         Stefan at florilegium.org



From: PB06098 at uafsysb.uark.EDU (Paul Byers)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Fighting Hamsters

Date: 12 Mar 1993 05:06:46 -0500


The Calontir song of fighting hamsters is written for me. (large grin and swelling of breast!)


Back at pensic 12, or was it 13? anyway, In those days I fought with a

duct-taped hamster on my helm. (plastic, sword and shield, brown.) That was the year I introed the Calon shield wall. I was the center scutum, anchoring the whole line. All my secondaries were females. All through the different assaults they would hit my hamster with their pommals. hamster would squeak, they would giggle, I would yell/whine 'girls! Please!' and the foe was sore confused.


Later in the war a great sword blew the poor hamster off my helm. We recovered

him and got him drunk. After that for a few years most of the calon army

wore hamsters on or in their helms. I still have my original hamster somewhere.


Enough. If you want to hear more E-mail me while I'm at a real editor.


Pavel (still in combat with the dual demons NDIS and ODI!)




From: hwt  at bcarh11a.BNR.CA (Henry Troup)

Subject: Re: Blasphemy Alert : Move Pennsic ?

Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada

Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 12:21:47 GMT


|>doconnor at sedona.intel.com writes:

|>#> The real issue, from my distant perspective in Arizona, is when is

|>#> Pennsic going to get a site large enough that there's no longer a

|>#> need for such limiting limitations on tent/encampement size ?


(I resist the temptation to refer to Dennis as "The O'Connor Don",

really I do!)

(It's a title of the chief of Clan O'Connor, not an insult.)


I'm not sure that such a site exists -- or can be created. Most camping

events of 10,000 people are things like Boy Scout Jamborees.  Very

often, they are held in state parks and the like. There's a large state

park near Cooper's Lake. It is a "dry site" - no alcohol allowed. I

don't know who makes it so, but I am given to understand that this is a

common rule.


The things we'd be up against are rules -- dry site, no fires allowed,

no clothing optional swimming hole -- in nearly any government facility.

And, can you imagine the reaction of any commercial camp site - "We only

have 1000 spaces, and you want 15,000 people to attend! No way, Jose!".

Cooper's Lake was 100 spaces for regular camping, according to the AAA



The third alternative is the unimproved farmland one - possible, but not

as comfortable as Cooper's Lake.


I think that Pennsic works as well as it does because it has grown on

that site from around 500 to its current size.


Did you know that Pennsic supports the state liquor store in Newcastle?

If it wasn't for August sales of wine and liquor, the store would have

been closed. The supermarket nearest Cooper's Lake stocks whole legs of

lamb in August - and no other time of year.


The total support from Butler County is really good - it flows both

ways. There's a 16 year relationship to build on. The kids who pack

groceries in the supermarkets have seen SCA people every August for a

lifetime - incredible!  There's established trust inwith the community

there. 10,000 strangely dressed people would get a lot of communities

really nervous, after all.


Henry Troup - H.Troup  at BNR.CA (Canada) - BNR owns but does not share my opinions

                       This is a virus-free signature



From: gray  at ibis.cs.umass.edu (Lyle FitzWilliam)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Serengeti hints....

Date: 12 Aug 1993 02:58:21 GMT

Organization: Bergental, East Kingdom


(John T Dillon) writes:

>Keep lots of water around and drink copious quantities.

>If you feel a headache coming on, go shopping, wander the barn, or head

>into the wooded areas where it will be cooler.


And repeat the previous step:  Drink water.


>Every year I camped where I had parked the previous year.  Last year I parked

>beyond the second hill...  Hmmmm....


I love it!


Runestone Hill, as I have heard, use to be the main battlefield.


When I was at Pennsic XIII, I camped on the Old Archery Field, on the far side

of the lake.  There were three or four tents there.


In the Woods Battle that year (you all know, the one with the causeway...), at

Resurrection Point there was a little table set up, where they checked you in,

putting a mark in the column of the side that you fought for, to get an idea

of the numbers killed in both sides.  Fighters could re-enter the woods at

several different points, one of which was on the edge of the Old Archery



At Pennsic XIV, one of the competing forces marshalled at the top of the

Runestone Hill before marching down to enter the Woods.  Another year, the

attacking force (one force had already entered the woods) mustered on the Old

Archery Field itself.


Of course, now, all three areas are used for camping.


Lyle FitzWilliam, who loves to reminisce every now and then...


Lyle H. Gray                       Internet (personal): gray  at cs.umass.edu

Quodata Corporation            Phone: (203) 728-6777, FAX: (203) 247-0249



From: sherman  at trln.lib.unc.edu (dennis r. sherman)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Serengeti hints....

Date: 12 Aug 1993 13:21:50 GMT

Organization: Triangle Research Libraries Network


(Lyle FitzWilliam) writes:

>Runestone Hill, as I have heard, use to be the main battlefield.


Actually, if you want to go back a bit further, what you call the Old

Archery Field used to be the main battlefield.  If I can find them and

find room while packing, I'll take pictures to the Rialto party.  

(I'll be late, as Atlantian Court is Thursday night too, and I'm not

missing it!)


Robyyan Torr d'Elandris  Kapellenberg, Windmaster's Hill  Atlantia

Dennis R. Sherman                Triangle Research Libraries Network

dennis_sherman  at unc.edu       Univ. of North Carolina - Chapel Hill



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: chanson  at marcie.wellesley.edu

Subject: Pennsics past (was: Serengeti hints)


Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1993 20:34:03 GMT


Lyle FitzWilliam adds more Survival/Serengeti advice, then goes on:

>Runestone Hill, as I have heard, use to be the main battlefield.


>When I was at Pennsic XIII, I camped on the Old Archery Field, on the far side

>of the lake.  There were three or four tents there.


>In the Woods Battle that year (you all know, the one with the causeway...), at

>Resurrection Point there was a little table set up, where they checked you in,



>At Pennsic XIV, one of the competing forces marshalled at the top of the

>Runestone Hill before marching down to enter the Woods.  Another year, the

>attacking force (one force had already entered the woods) mustered on the Old

>Archery Field itself.


>Of course, now, all three areas are used for camping.


You call that "reminiscing"?  Why, young man, *I* was at Pennsic VI, the

first Pennsic at Cooper's Lake.  Everyone camped on the one hillside

- dunno what you call it now, from the highest point next to Great Eastern

Highway, down to the woods.  We camped around the edges, leaving enough

empty space in the middle for courts, mustering of troops, and the

champions' battles.  


'Course in those days, we had *Champion's* Battles: five one-on-one

bouts, each between two champions in a different weapons form; none of

these small armies you kids have nowadays.  (Champions' battles nowadays

are bigger than the field battles of the first few Pennsics, but I wasn't

at them!)   Heck, one war point was decided by single combat between King

Fernando and King Finnevar - these young pup kings don't do *that* anymore

these days.  (Finnevar won.)


And the field battle was in the upper field that's the Tuchux' camp

these days I hear - and it wasn't even worth a war point!  And how

do you think the Old Archery Field got its name, anyway, eh?


Now, if you want some *real* reminiscing, who out there has some

good Pennsic IV stories?  (Not many, 'cause they've probably already

left for Coopers' Lake.)



(The facts above are true.  Only the tone of voice has been altered

for dramatic effect.)



From: gray  at ibis.cs.umass.edu (Lyle Gray)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Pennsics past

Date: 12 Aug 1993 17:14:22 GMT

Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst


chanson at marcie.wellesley.edu writes:

]You call that "reminiscing"?  Why, young man, *I* was at Pennsic VI ...


All right, I'm a "young man".  No argument.  But I also happen to be one of

three people who's been active for the longest period of time in my barony

(one of the two others is the Baroness...)


]first Pennsic at Cooper's Lake.  Everyone camped on the one hillside

]- dunno what you call it now, from the highest point next to Great Eastern

]Highway, down to the woods.


It's called "Runestone Hill" or "Runestone Field", depending on whom you ask.


]Heck, one war point was decided by single combat between King

]Fernando and King Finnevar - these young pup kings don't do *that* anymore

]these days.  (Finnevar won.)


Now, _that_ would be interesting to see.


]And the field battle was in the upper field that's the Tuchux' camp

]these days I hear - and it wasn't even worth a war point!  And how

]do you think the Old Archery Field got its name, anyway, eh?


Well, I hadn't heard the first part, but I _did_ know how the Old Archery

Field got its name (even though a yunker, I still know _some_ things... ;-) )


]Now, if you want some *real* reminiscing, who out there has some

]good Pennsic IV stories?  (Not many, 'cause they've probably already

]left for Coopers' Lake.)


I picked up a few from Sir Emric last weekend, including an additional piece

to the story about Angus dubh MacTarbh (ah, close enough spelling, I guess)

and his famous fall into the mud while wearing a pig-faced bascinet.  Seems

that Angus had actually tried to fall _backwards_, but there was a sapling

behind him that bent backwards, and then threw him onto his face.




Lyle FitzWilliam (who's perfectly content to be called a "young man")


Lyle H. Gray                       Internet (personal): gray  at cs.umass.edu

Quodata Corporation            Phone: (203) 728-6777, FAX: (203) 247-0249

--(My opinions are my own, and do not represent my employer's opinions)--



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: sclark  at epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Clark)

Subject: Re: Pennsics past

Organization: University of Toronto - EPAS

Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1993 18:55:31 GMT



        If you want to see a whole slew of these early Pennsic stories,

stop by the Eoforwic camp (if it actually exists this year--our

location is so bad that people are baling like crazy) and ask for Duke

Finvarr himself.  Ask him to tell you about his umbrella and Pennsic IV.

Also, if you can lay your hands on a copy, the book from Pennsic XX

had a whole history of Pennsic in it....




sclark at epas.utoronto.ca



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: chanson  at marcie.wellesley.edu

Subject: Re: Pennsics past


Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1993 02:50:51 GMT


Lyle FitzWilliam writes:

>chanson at marcie.wellesley.edu writes:            [that's me]

>]first Pennsic at Cooper's Lake.  Everyone camped on the one hillside

>]- dunno what you call it now, from the highest point next to Great Eastern

>]Highway, down to the woods.


>It's called "Runestone Hill" or "Runestone Field", depending on whom you ask.


No, no, not the Runestone Field hill, the other one, on the other side

of the big ditch/pond/rough terrain.  (I may have confused you by citing

the wrong road name.  We didn't have road names in the old days.  We

didn't have roads!)  Runestone Field was all mundane territory, as was

everything except our side of the one hill (even the other face - north

or west-facing? - of our hill was mundane campers and RV's).


>]Heck, one war point was decided by single combat between King

>]Fernando and King Finnevar - these young pup kings don't do *that* anymore

>]these days.  (Finnevar won.)


>Now, _that_ would be interesting to see.


Frankly, I think it would be a good thing in many ways.  Among other

things, of all the war points it would be over fastest.  Among the drawbacks,

it would be impossible now for all interested parties to watch it.


>I picked up a few from Sir Emric last weekend, including an additional piece

>to the story about Angus dubh MacTarbh (ah, close enough spelling, I guess)

>and his famous fall into the mud while wearing a pig-faced bascinet.  Seems

>that Angus had actually tried to fall _backwards_, but there was a sapling

>behind him that bent backwards, and then threw him onto his face.


Certainly a close enough spelling.  I seem to recall that that particular

fall happened at Pennsic V.  (Just because there was mud doesn't mean it

had to be Pennsic Pour.  We had plenty of mud in the old days.  Then later

we got stew, and taxes.)  (That's a literary allusion, for them young folks

what don't read the classics.)  But I could be wrong, and it's a good story

either war.


>Lyle FitzWilliam (who's perfectly content to be called a "young man")


Kale/Caleb (who means no offense, and is glad Lyle takes none)



From: nusbache  at epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Pennsic population

Date: 15 Sep 1993 13:31:02 -0400

Organization: EPAS Computing Facility, University of Toronto


PA142548 at utkvm1.utk.edu (T. Archer) writes:

>But I am not comfortable with excluding the founders of Pensic, which we seem

>to have taken over, by adding additional rules to the event.  I'll certainly

>not call anyone's honor into question, but I am not comfortable with it.


Chew on this.  Pennsic was founded as an SCA event and held at sites

around Ohio and western Pennylvania.  The site moved almost every

year. Dagan found the Cooper's Lake campground -- I don't know how,

nor do I especially care.  For several years, Pennsic coexisted with

other campers, mostly equipped with sailboats, not bunny-fur.

Eventually Pennsic War took over the site.


The Tuchucks have also been renting Cooper's Lake (though not, I don't

believe, the whole site) for years for having Tuchuk events.  They

still do, so far as I know.


Perhaps a Tuchuck buddy told Dagan about Cooper's, leading him to make

inquiries which led to renting the site.  Big deal.  If a WWI

re-enactor had told him, would we be morally bound to allow

Lee-Enfield rifles? Of course not.  Perhaps the Tuchucks started to

rent space from the Cooper's before Pennsic VI.  So what -- so did a

lot of people.


Get a grip on the facts before you start to agonise about fine points

of moral obligation.


Aryk Nusbacher



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: "Michael Squires" <mikes  at cs.indiana.edu>

Subject: Pennsic history (was Re: Pennsic population

Keywords: Pennsic

Organization: Computer Science, Indiana University

Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1993 11:23:01 -0500


Susan Clark <sclark  at epas.utoronto.ca> wrote:

>      The Tuchux did not invent Pennsic.  There were at least fofour

>or five Pennsics held at other sites before Cooper's Lake became its

>permanent home.  And I have this odd feeling that the story about the 'chux

>"discovering" Cooper's Lake is somewhat of an urban legend. (I've heard

>at least one other story.....)  though they may have indeed been using

>Cooper's Lake for their own events before the SCA.


Pennsics I through V were held elsewhere.  My understanding is that the

problems with Pennsics IV and V were such that a new site was needed, and

Cooper's Lake Campground was familiar to the SCA through the Barony-Marche

of the Debatable Lands.  The BMDL held some events at Cooper's Lake

Campground before Pennsic VI, although Duke Sir Dagan of the Middle was

involved somethow in setting up Pennsic VI.  Cooper's Lake was chosen

jointly by the East and the Middle, although apparently the original

agreement has been lost (about four years ago the only agreement still

on record was the agreement between the Exchequers of the East and the



The story I was told about the creation of the Tuchux says that Wolf the

Mighty started the Tuchux after some contact with the BMDL as a way of

having fun with some of the best students in his martial arts school.


Mike Squires (mikes  at cs.indiana.edu)     812 855 3974 (w) 812 333 6564 (h)

mikes at cs.indiana.edu          546 N Park Ridge Rd., Bloomington, IN 47408



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: mikes  at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (michael squires)

Subject: Re: Childrens rules at Pennsic

Organization: Indiana University

Date: Fri, 29 Jul 1994 16:36:13 GMT


DSBurns at mke.ab.com (Dennis Burns ) writes:

>1) A s to the BSA/GSA I run a youth group at my local church, I have taken the

>children camping why can't an adult who has taken responsibility for a

>youth not genetically linked to them to pennsic?


Up until about Pennsic XIV or thereabouts Pennsic ran on the same rules as other

events; a minor needed only a minor's waiver which indicated who had been

delegated parental responsiblity.  As a result of a number of serious incidents

where minors came to harm or were in real danger of serious harm, plus the

size of the camp (which caused PA local and state authorities to become

interested) the Coopers/Wilvers decided that in order to limit their personal

liability they had to require that a legal guardian/parent be present when

a minor was admitted to camp.


They resisted this for some years, but eventually their exposure to liability

became so great that they had to change the rules.


Michael L. Squires, Ph.D   Manager of Instructional Computing, Freshman Office,

Chemistry Department, IU Bloomington, IN 47405 812-855-0852 (o) 81-333-6564 (h)

mikes at indiana.edu, mikes  at ucs.indiana.edu, or mikes  at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu



From: mms6824  at tntech.edu

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Childrens rules at Pennsic

Date: 31 Jul 94 16:16:37 -0600

Organization: Tennessee Tech University


> Edmund also writes, responding to Patri's point about scout camps and

> the like, "Remember,  Pennsic is held in the COMMONWEALTH OF

> PENNSYVANIA. The laws are  different there." There are also, in

> Pennsylvania, scout camps, martial arts studios with minor customers,

> judo tournments, summer camps, and lots of others things which

> Edward's arguments prove cannot exist.


> One of the things I have observed on the Rialto (and elsewhere) is

> the willingness of a lot of people, especially those with no

> particular knowledge of law, to accept without question legal

> explanations for why it is necessary to do certain things--even when

> there is lots of evidence to the contrary. This particular set of

> arguments was hashed out on the Rialto a couple of years ago. Nobody

> then came up with any evidence that there were special legal problems

> in Pennsylvania making it impractical to allow minors at Pennsic

> without their parents, and I have seen no such evidence since. If

> Edward has some to present, I will of course be interested to see it.


> David/Cariadoc abu Patri


Your Grace,


        As a former resident, and certrified School Teacher in the State of

Pennsylvania, I can come up with several laws that relate here.  In the first

case, before I could go into the public schools to teach in the state of PA, I

had to have a backround check done through the State Police, if I had been a

resident of the state for at least the past year, if not the check had to have

been done through the FBI.  This was done to determine if I had any past child

related offences. And while not the Law for all groups sponsoring child/teen

activities, many other groups are requireing this same procedure for their

employees/volunteers to protect themselves.  


        A parent dropping off an underage teenager at Pennsic, could be charged

with neglect.  We are not a group such as the Boy Scouts or other types of

Child/teen oriented groups that have the "Responsible Adult Suppervision" of

Children and Teens.  THIS is the difference between the examples that you are

citing and the SCA.  And I don't believe that the person incharge of Childrens

activiities is willing to be put in this position, or should be required to

bein this position.  We require the PARENT or LEGAL GUARDIAN to be the

Responsible Adult Supervisor of their own children.  


        As someone who has been involved with the running of Pennsic on several

occasions. I can remember many times where in the wee hours of the morning, a

"parent" has Security looking all of the War for their missing child that they

haven't seen all day.  OR how about the group of older teenagers, who managed

to get ahold of a rather large amount of alcohol and went out into the woods

for a party?  As I remember that incident ended up with a 15 year old

alternating between being passed out and pucking his guts out in Chiurgeon's

Point, d*mn near having alcohol poisoning.  Or the young teenage girl who was

being inappropriately touched by a person in the Merchant area?


        You and you lady have raised a fine young man.  And I know of many good

and responsible young people in the SCA, not to mention their parents.  Your

parenting style suits you.  However, there is a large difference between

allowing a child/teen to find their limits and neglect, admittedily at times it

may be in the eyes of the beholder.  The touchstone I try to use is:  Is the

child/teen being harmed?  Is the parent available to the child/teen?  You and

your lady are, many are not.


Your's in service - Marian of Clann Kyle



From: pat  at lloyd.com (Pattie McGregor)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Childrens rules at Pennsic

Date: 30 Jul 1994 11:28:07 -0700

Organization: House Northmark, Mountains' Gate, Cynagua, The West

Summary: Teens are particularly vulnerable at Pennsic

Keywords: children, curfew, pennsic, fairness


Greetings from Siobhan, who will not be able to make it to

Pennsic this year (alas!) and especially greetings to Patri..


I am the mother of a 15-year veteran of Pennsic who happens to be 14.5 years

old, and so I do understand your reasonable concerns.


I am thrilled that my daughter is still interested in activities in the

SCA (waiver problems notwithstanding), and that there are more things

which she can do there these days.


I do also know that teens have proven to be extremely vulnerable to

some dangers that are magnified at Pennsic than some others have been,

and I do reluctantly agree that we have to make some restrictions.


The medical and legal reasons are very clear to me: in the past we have

had teens dropped off by parents (or who heard about Pennsic and took

off in a carload and arrived, without a clue) at the gate, expecting to be

picked up in  4-6 days. I am glad I was not an autocrat, landowner, or

paramedic who had to sort out the restrictions to treat one of those children

in an emergency.


But there are some other things which happen which make it clear to me

that we must attempt to protect our teens.


Granted, most of the stories I have heard involved young women: and since my

child is female, I am particularly moved by those. Ihave heard only a few

about young men, tho, and they are equally scary. Most, alas, involve

drugs, sex, alcohol, and medical problems.


As an aside, it occurs to me that if you are attending your father's bardic,

or dancing where Elizabeth is playing for the music, you are, indeed, near

your parents. And no one has dropped you off to fend for yourself without

anyone to watch over you. It's _those_ folk who worry me.


Let's consider a couple of cases:


        * The 15-year old daughter of a local seneschal and her friend

        are wandering the camp during an evening meeting where her father

        is in attendance. They  look more like 18 year old's in the

      garb they are wearing. A group of older teens/college kids invite

        them to a party: while there, they drink a great deal of beer

        and vodka-spiked punch. The 15-year old passes out: wakes up

         in a supply tent, her clothing in disarray, her underwear no

         where to be seen.  Her companion, a 14-year old who is there

        without her parents (but permission papers have been given to the

        other child's father/seneschal), is taken against her will up

         into the woods by a group of much older men: her screaming

         is heard by the watch at the horde camp, who arrive and

         disperse the group, escorting the girl back to her camp.

        (paraphrase of a true incident)


        * A 17-year old boy who has slipped into the camp by lying on

        his troll form goes out partying with his buds: he drinks a

        great deal and discovers that he has a severe allergy to

        alcohol. His friends think he's merely drunk and dump him in

        his tent to sleep it off. A chirurgeon hears the noises he is

        making and gets him to the paramedics; they treat the emergency

        but can't contact his parents, nor do they know his insurance

        information. (a rumor)


        * The 16-year old daughter of a reigning prince meets a very

        nice fighter during the war. She tells her mom that she is

        going to walk the camp with him. 8 hours later, after mom has

        raised the watch to try and find her, she stumbles into the

        back side of the incampment with a story that she has been

        'date raped.' She doesn't want to see the man again to press

        charges; he claims she initiated the sexual incident and he

        didn't know she was only 16. (paraphrase)


        * the watch finds a young boy, about 15-ish, lying in the grass by a

        privy in a stupor. He is in severe insulin reaction. He does not

        have any ID on him. He does not have a waiver on file with the

        troll. He is wearing a tie-dyed tunic and a pair of blue-jeans.

        No on knows who he is. He is taken to the hospital, where after

        4 days the sheriff finally finds a match with a missing child

        flyer. He's from Florida, and came up to "the party" because he

        read something on a bulletin board about how neat it was.

        (blend of two incidents)


        * Visiting a friend who has two teenagers, a girl and a boy, you

        ask how they are doing at the War. "I don't know," says the father,

        I haven't seen them in days. I'm not even sure [she] slept in

        the camp last night." ("she" is 13.)


All of these incidents could have _extremely_ nasty outcomes. Most of the

stories you hear at pennsic are of the "close shave" variety; some are

ugly and filled with real danger, both physical and emotional. Some

of the lady peers have decided to form households where they take young

women under their watch to give them a known circle: to help protect them

by including them. I've made sure the chivalry know that "that young girl, who

looks 18 but is really only 14.5," is Aldric's and mine, so that if they

see her in iffy situations they will be more minded to help. I confess, I'm

using "peer" pressure and social advantage to make sure my child is

better armed against problems. I've looked fighters straight in

the eye when they make a sexual comment about her and reminded them that

she is not of age, and that I know they will help me make sure that no one

takes advantage of her. I am trying to make the 'enchanted ground' of our

events safer not only for my child but for others -- it's hard work.


Most of the kids at Pennsic, of almost all ages, are going to be OK. Some

are not. Unfortunately, and particularly because Pennsylvania has such

strict laws about such things (and they do: I am told by an ex-pennsylavania

boyscout leader that special permission forms for Pennsylvania are used

by the Boy Scouts there), the Coopers, and the SCA, must take unusual and

distateful steps to protect those children who will _not_ be OK.


I have been disappointed by this, too. The first year it was implemented

it turned my plans upside down; I had looked forward to bringing

a teen to help with the kids: pay her/his way and food-board in return for

a reliable person to watch littles while went to peerage meetings,

attended the Royalty, and so on. Not possible now unless I can find a

college student, and most of them have things they want to be doing on their

own. So this is a hardship for parents, as well. But since we now can't

trust in the safety of Pennsic as we once did, we need to make rules to

try and protect ourselves and our children.


Now, let me mount my soapbox for a moment. Flame alert coming.


If we could trust each other, in the spirit of the SCA that we all brag about

so often, we wouldn't have to have these rules. I am astounded when I hear

about belted fighters (pardon me if I don't call them knights) preying on

underage girls, getting them drunk and persuading them to have sex, and then

laughing about it in the morning. Where's the chivalry in that?

Having a Duke tell me that he thinks they should stamp "jailbait" on the

forehead of any girl under 18 outrages me: don't these men even ask age

and name before they take a woman out in the woods? Before they get

her drunk?


I've heard recently the African saying "It takes a whole village to raise

a child." Where is our vaunted SCA village? Where are the older teens

taking watch of the younger ones? Where are the adults who will notice when

an unknown youngster is around the campfire and seems to be drinking (when

s/he is likely underage) and will take some time to counsel and protect?


End soapbox.


I think your concerns, Patri, are valid; your venom is not. You're not

proving to me that you have a reasonable ability to argue your side

of the point without being insulting. As the mom of a teenager, I know

I have to listen extra hard when my child, because of her strong feelings

on a topic, resorts to venom, but those here listening who have not

that experience will only see another whiny teen. You can help your cause

better if you argue more dispassionately.




Siobhan Medhbh O'Roarke / Pat McGregor

Sharing her time between Crosston &                   3331 Kimberly Road

Mountain's Gate/Golden Rivers                       Cameron Park, CA 95682

pat  at cygnus.com                                        (916) 677-6607

siobhan  at lloyd.com    




Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Childrens rules at Pennsic

Date: 31 JUL 94 10:41:32 EST

Organization: Milwaukee Area Technical College


pat at lloyd.com (Pattie McGregor) writes:

>I do also know that teens have proven to be extremely vulnerable to

>some dangers that are magnified at Pennsic than some others have been,

>and I do reluctantly agree that we have to make some restrictions.

>The medical and legal reasons are very clear to me: in the past we have

>had teens dropped off by parents (or who heard about Pennsic and took

>off in a carload and arrived, without a clue) at the gate, expecting to be

>picked up in  4-6 days. I am glad I was not an autocrat, landowner, or

>paramedic who had to sort out the restrictions to treat one of those children

>in an emergency.

>But there are some other things which happen which make it clear to me

>that we must attempt to protect our teens.


[multiple ghastly horror stories omitted]


A few years ago, the Moritu Dark Horde, led by Todric Koenig, provided

the security for a Pennsic War.  Todric Khan later recounted to me some

very similar incidents of that War, not only involving underage drinking

and apparent molestation, but also involving children much younger than

12 wandering lost and hungry and frightened in the night, in more than

one case children under 5 left unsupervised near fires and weapons (and

one such who was disarmed just as about to hit another child with a real

sword) -- and the security personnel were roundly abused for intervening

in these cases... by parents/guardians who, in some cases, had been

sleeping in their tents, assumed other adults would look after their

children, and were only annoyed at being woken up to be informed of the

contrary. After the stress of dealing with these situations and gripes

for the week of the War, the Moritu decided not to repeat the offer of

security -- at least, not under the social conditions now prevalent.


There was some discussion of that War on the Rialto, some messages

complaining about the intrusive security people, and I tried to post

Todric Khan's response.  I don't know if it was seen here, though,

because my post attempt was made through Fidonet, and I never saw it

acknowledged. Perhaps Master Ioseph of Locksley remembers it, since

he was active in that discussion?  If not, I have to assume the post

never made it from Fidonet to the Rialto....


"Raven"    (JSingle  at Music.Lib.MATC.Edu)    Milwaukee, Wisconsin USA



From: mjc+  at cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Not (just) a Cooper rule (was: Pennsic children's rules)

Date: 2 Aug 94 13:47:28 GMT

Organization: Carnegie-Mellon University, School of Computer Science


My memory of the origin of this rule was different from what most people

here seemed to be saying, so I called the secretary of the Pennsic Council

(who also has regular contact with the Coopers) and asked.  The rule was

developed *jointly* by the Coopers and the staff of either Pennsic XVI or

XVII. This is not a case of the Coopers instituting a rule themselves;

both they and "the SCA" (as represented by that year's autocrat) wanted it.

Apparently, no autocrat since then has tried to change it.





From: mjc+  at cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: We're having *what* for dinner? (Was: Kosher Locusts)

Date: 4 Aug 94 04:53:04 GMT

Organization: Carnegie-Mellon University, School of Computer Science


>   One problem, Aleksandr -- isn't it still against East Kingdom law (and

>Pennsic rules) to slaughter animals?  


East Kingdom law is silent on the subject.  However, after an unfortunate

incident involving an injured pig running loose through camp, the Coopers

instituted a rule against slaughtering on site.





From: folo  at prairienet.org (F.L. Watkins)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Pennsic: Odd Thoughts & Questions

Date: 23 Aug 1994 23:42:20 GMT

Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana


Pennsic IV was, if rumor was correct, taking place in a disaster

area. The streets of Cleveland (which was nearby) was flooding.

Like this year, it had been raining a lot before; unlike this year,

it was raining continuously throughout the weekend (in those days,

Pennsic was a single weekend, believe it or don't). I guess I'd

give this year a 5 or a 6. IMHO only of course.


What security was saying about the fire was that it was a natural

gas well fire. It was certainly contained; throughout the time

we were watching it up at the top of the Runestone hill, it did

not move much. For people who didn't see it: you missed something.

The sky looked as though the sun was coming up, and the flames

were dancing above the tree tops of the hill in the distance. I

had just got back from taking my wife to the Emergency Room and

couldn't sleep. A friend & I saw the smoke first and assumed it was

a nasty cloud at first. Then Jeff noted the fire. It was so tall

that I assumed that it had to be closer--much closer--than it

was and wondered who set the bonfire in the MidRealm Royal

Encampment (and then speculated that it was Rolac, who did build

a huge bonfire at Pennsic IV and who was on site...). I was veryu

surprised when the Independent didn't mention it; I understand the\

Chronicle did, but getting copies was like pulling teeth...


We left Pennsic earlier than we had in years...maybe ever. It

felt a little funky and likened the whole thing to refugees

fleeing from a war zone. It was, however, nice, to check into

a hotel in Columbus (traditional halfway home) in the daylight.


Yrs, Folo


Damin de Folo - F.L.Watkins - folo  at prairienet.org

Baron Wurm Wald (MidRealm) - Commander Baldwin's (NWTA)



From: folo  at prairienet.org (F.L. Watkins)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Pennsic 'Golfcart'?

Date: 23 Aug 1994 13:46:18 GMT

Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana


Youngsters, youngsters, youngsters: at least at this Pennsic,

I didn't have to hump all my belongings out on my back, wading

through mud up over my ankles a half a mile (it may have only

been a quarter, but it felt like four or five). I was able,

after being winched (with an I) out of the parking lot, to

drive up to my booth, load and drive out. I didn't have to throw

away my boots afterwards either.


For a name, how about Pennsic Puddle Lite?


Yrs, Folo (who still has mudstains on some of the stuff he took

        to Pennsic IV...)


Damin de Folo - F.L.Watkins - folo  at prairienet.org

Baron Wurm Wald (MidRealm) - Commander Baldwin's (NWTA)



From: mchance  at crl.com (Michael A. Chance)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Pennsic, wars in general

Date: 1 Sep 1994 15:57:51 -0700

Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access


His Grace, Duke Vissevald Selkirksson writes:

>willey at lard  (Richard E. Willey) writes:


>>I'm not sure whether Calontir has ever fought with the east (I believe they

>>have in the past).  However, Calontir hasn't fielded nearly as large forces in

>>the past two years as it traditionally has.  I hope this isn't a long term

>>trend, but Calontir wasn't as significant a force this year as it has been.


>Calontir has fought with the East once. I think it was around Pennsic XIV or



That was, I believe, Pennsic XV.  Asgeirr and Miriam were on the

throne, and Calontir and Atlantia switched their traditional

alliances. I still have a fond memory of the opening ceremony, held

on the road at the top of the Runefield, with Asgeirr, standing behind

the Eastern King (Ronald Wilmot?).  Very quitely, as the speeches

droned on, Asgeirr started bouncing up and down.  Pretty soon, nearly

all of the Calontiri in the crowd were doing it, too.  The Eastern

King, confused by the sight of lots of folks bouncing up and down in

near unison, looked behind him to see what was going on.  Asgeirr

immediately stopped as soon as the Eastern King started turning, and

then flashed one of his patented "Yes, Your Majesty?" grins, as if he

both knew some secret joke and had no idea what the Eastern Crown

might have been looking for.


And yes, the Calontir force was considerably smaller than usual this

year. For a variety of reason, most of the Chivalry and Huscarls, and

a good portion of the Fyrd, stayed home this year, resulting in a force

of about 40-50, not counting auxiliaries.  Most reports that I've

heard still account them as a major force for the Midrealm in all of

the battles.  Lots of us are imagining what might have happened if the

rest of the army had made it out.


Mikjal Annarbjorn


Michael A. Chance          St. Louis, Missouri, USA    "At play in the fields

Work: mc307a  at sw1stc.sbc.com                             of St. Vidicon"

Play: mchance  at crl.com

     mchance  at nyx.cs.du.edu



From: mabr  at sweden.hp.com (Morgan "the Dreamer" Broman)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Pennsic, wars in general

Date: 2 Sep 1994 07:56:41 GMT

Organization: HP/SCA/SKA/FSTS/AMTS/SLRP/ETC Sweden


        Calontir fought with the East at Pennsic XV, Ronald was King of

the East. It was my first Pennsic war and I was impressed by the way the

Calontirians took the lower bridge back, clinching a victory for us.




....veni, vidi, vici...;)

HP : Morgan Broman                             mabr at sweden.hp.com



From: David Schroeder <ds4p+  at andrew.cmu.edu>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: pennsic veggies

Date: Tue, 29 Nov 1994 07:12:47 -0500

Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA


Hi folks...


> <ALBAN  at delphi.COM> wrote:

> >Ranvaig said, in regard to large purple carrots being grown by

> >near-Pennsic farmers:

> >>I have often wondered why no one merchants food.  


One of my favorite memories of early Coopers Lake Pennsics

was giving the Coopers a dollar for a dozen ears of fresh

sweet corn for the pot for supper from the field of corn

that grew about where the food concessions are today.


One seldom gets corn that fresh these days...


My best -- Bertram



From: salley  at niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Identification Friend/Foe

Date: 12 Jan 95 03:44:37 GMT

Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208


> Greetings from Lothar,

>      At Pennsic it would be Period and make sense for every fighter to

> put the badge of his kingdom or mercenary unit on his tabard or shield and

> for large fighting units to have a banner or standard which they would carry

> with them into battle.


Banners are forbidden in the wood's battles.  One year Rhydderich Hael captured

the tabard of the Midrealm Prince, tied a short sword to a spear with a squires

belt and draped the tabard over it with the intention of waving a red flag in

front of a bull to get more action.  The banner was mistaken for a war banner

by midrealm scouts and the middle army wasted a lot of time trying to recover

it. The powers-that-be have since declared that "false banners" are a

dis-honorable act and banned all standards except the War Point Banner from

the woods ;-(


                                                      - Dagonell


SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr

Habitat          : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, RHYDDERICH HAEL Barony

Internet    : salley  at niktow.cs.canisius.edu  (Reply does NOT work!! :-( )

USnail-net : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029



From: steffan  at world.std.COM (Steven H Mesnick)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Breafast poll

Date: 12 Mar 1995 00:57:45 -0500

Organization: The Internet


For me, the One True Breakfast at Pennsic is Sated Tyger Gruel.


For the uninitiated, *real* gruel is non-disgusting. Gruel in literature

is disgusting because it's always described as *watery*, i.e. *bad* gruel.

Gruel is simply (yesterday's) beef stew mixed with (today's) oatmeal....


The Sated Tyger was the fabled first Inn at Pennsic, the first public

food-service establishment at the War. The proprietor was Johan von

Traubenberg, the Chief Cook was Old Marian of Edwinstowe, and Elspeth

Keyfe of Neddingham was a counter-wench and cook. Marian and Elspeth

now run the Battlefield Bakery.


       Steffan ap Cennydd



From: us002743  at pop3.interramp.com (Thomas A. Kozak)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Pennsic Departure Time

Date: Sun, 04 Jun 1995 07:12:35 GMT

Organization: UBS Casual  NCC-REVOKED


"woody(webersol at epix.net)" <webersol  at grape.epix.net> wrote:


>As for other campers, the majority of coopers campground is unused

>except for pennsic .


Perhaps, while at War, you've noticed the large number of trailers and

boats parked near the parking lot.  Some of these are stored there

regularly; many more are actually sitting on site from September to

July. The Coopers haul all of them out there before Pennsic and drag

them back afterwards.  Granted, that doesn't make the campground any

more "used" in the areas away from the trailer plots, but most of the

business of Cooper's Lake comes from trailer camping, not individual

tenters. I've been there on a few non-SCA occasions; I've even been

there early enough for War to watch them move the trailers.  By and

large, the campground is used and enjoyed by everyone there all year



>Improvments? where? we still have the same things there as were available

>10 years ago. i.e. cold showers, bad water, mud

>If some-one wants to rent a space for continued camping,What's the problem?

>That's why the coopers are in buisness.

>Woody Ebersold webersol  at epix.net


The shower situation is always easy to complain about, isn't it?  When

Pennsic began at Cooper's Lake (PW VI), there were only showers

available in the Bath House, and (I believe) only two wells for

campground use.   Around 500 gentles attended VI, and they had a total

of 6 showers.  That's 1 stall per 83 people.  By Pennsic XX, the

Cooper's had built the Solar Showers, the Runestone Bathhouse, and

had sunk at least two more wells for the campground.  (None of these

items are really needed for their normal business, as most of the

trailers have their own showers on board and the tent campers were

usually few enough that the Bath House could handle the load.)  Thus,

at Pennsic XX, there were around 8000 gentles in attendance and a

total of 32 stalls.  That's one stall per 250 people.  Not an ideal

margin, but a lot better than the one per 1330 ratio we'd have if the

Cooper's had made no improvements which would be used only at Pennsic.

(Yes, the Runestone Bath House is used all year, but the Solars were

built just for us.)  


(The best bet for a hot shower, of course, is to build one.  Come by

Darkyard this year and see how it's done...)


Bad water?  Yeah, it's well water, but given the amazing number of

news reports about filth in municipal water systems, having nothing

but some extra mineral content in you drinking water should be a

welcome change.


As for the mud:  One of the major ongoing improvement projects has

been the paving of the major roads.  "Ten years ago,"  the only paved

roads were directly adjacent to the barn.  Now, they extend from

halfway down Runestone Hill to the Troll, with the hill up the other

side (on the Great Eastern Hwy) included.  Mud is nasty, depressing,

and downright foul-smelling (especially on the Serengeti, which was

fertilized with manure for decades), but it's also decidedly dangerous

on the hills around the lake.  Now that those roads are paved, it's no

longer an issue.  As for the rest of the War...Hell, it's camping,

right? You're OUTDOORS.  Rain, mud, snow, hail, and freak windstorms

are to be expected.  It's part of the ambiance, or somesuch.  Get over



Other improvements to the site in the last ten years include the

laundry, the larger and much better stocked Camp Store, six additional

pay phones (plus the little trailer near Troll), water lines into the

Serengeti, and the Parking Shuttle.  None of this stuff would have

been necessary to the campground if we didn't show up every August

with more and more people.  Sure, the normal campers use the

improvements too, and I'd likely be wrong if I thought our money

didn't make it easy to upgrade the site, but in the end I doubt that

most of these improvements would have come about if we weren't there.

Of course, I could be wrong.


Really, Cooper's Lake has not been bad to us.  (And those shower lines

are excellent places to meet people, write a novel, or sing 2000-odd

verses of "Old Time Religion.")  In the end, it's still a campground,

not a hotel, and there are only so many things you can do to a



Be seeing you.

Thomas A. Kozak   Lord Abiron Blacavar von Metz, House Darkyard



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: animals/pets

From: una  at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk)

Date: Thu, 15 Jun 95 08:56:32 EDT


connect at aol.com (CONNECT) writes:


> Any camping event I go to, I make sure I can bring my beagle. I was very

> disappointed to read in the pennsic handbook you can't bring dogs, so I

> guess I'll never go to Pennsic. Is this a new rule?

> Yours In Service,

> Rosalyn MacGregor of Glen Orchy


> *        Patricia Snyder-Rayl        *  (313) 973-8825

> *          CONNECT Magazine          *  (800) GET-CONNECT


        Respected friend:

        Not particularly... My miniature Siamese cross, Swartalf, being

attacked by somebody's Rotweiler cross was one of the many incidents which

led to the ban. (She wupped 'im good.) That was Pennsic 9 or 10. I think the

final straw was the folks who brought a `pet goat', which some of the

employees petted and fed, who later got slaughtered on-site. (On purpose;

presumably for dinner.)

        However, I'm told there are several excellent boarding kennels near

the Pennsic site. I know several people who bring and board their dogs, and

whoever's doing the day's supply run to town stops and plays with them.

(there's a nearby stable, too.) So "don't go" isn't the only option...


                               Yours in service to the Society-

                               (Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk R.S.F.

                               Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf C.O.L. SCA

                               Una Wicca (That Pict)



From: jvincent  at eagle.wesleyan.edu (The Ulair)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca


Date: 29 Aug 95 11:25:50 EST

Organization: Wesleyan University


        (This is a tad off the subject, but I'll say it anyway.)


       I remember the full-scale trebuchet built at Pennsic 18 by a medieval

studies student (even got to watch him fire it to see if the rate of fire

mentioned by some sources was feasible). It would be nice to see more items

like that about.





From: ddfr  at best.com (David Friedman)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Founding of Markland?

Date: 8 Sep 1995 08:17:05 GMT

Organization: Best Internet Communications


> We have often had cross-pollination between the two groups, in fact in

> the Pennsic annual, when photos are printed of previous years, we've

> seen Markland members pictured in single-digit Pennsic years. ...


> Aeldra DeGodervya


There were Marklanders at Pennsic 1.




ddfr at best.com



From: baronfum  at aol.com (Baron Fum)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Loser Gets Pitt (was "Bigest interkingdom war/event")

Date: 3 Dec 1995 22:42:26 -0500

Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)


Swami corrects me- Pennsic V was also in Ohio, along with IV.  The rest

were definitely in Pennsylvania.  Pennsic as a name came very early

because of the play on the first and second Punic wars (many wars having

been caused by puns, and others having been caused by pens).


Ritter Baron Karl Aerdigwidder von Zauberberg, C.P.

Baron Andelcrag, Middle Kingdom

Saepe errabimus sed semper honore!

Morte ex morte



From: foxd  at silver.ucs.indiana.edu (daniel fox)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Getting to Pennsic (was Re: Loser Gets Pitt, etc)

Date: 4 Dec 1995 06:40:02 GMT

Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington


Most of my memories of Pennsic IV were of the inside of a leaky tent, and

seeing how long I could wait before I HAD to run to the porta-johns....


However, the one that stands out was as I sloshed up the hill, trying not to

fall into the hip deep ruts left by the tractors (which spent most of the

weekend pulling each other out of the mud as I recall) and carrying my

suitcases one in each hand.


I passed a friend dressed in Japanese garb, and a big straw hat.


As I gained on him, I said:


"Don't just stand there, Daishi, plant rice!"


It was much easier hurrying with an irate Japanese guy on my tail.....


Audelindis de Rheims



From: baronfum  at aol.com (Baron Fum)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Getting to Pennsic (was Re: Loser Gets Pitt, etc)

Date: 4 Dec 1995 13:29:57 -0500

Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)


I think my most comical memory of Pennsic IV was when Dagan du Derragonne

and I, fighting as a two man polearm buddy team, came across Duke Angus

and a friend.  I went forward and attacked to get them to follow and fell

back so they would come into Dagan's range.  Angus ended up face down with

his pig-faced bascinet stuck in the mud and had to be pulled out.  He

somehow seemed to fit in that place, face down in the mud.

   I also remember pulling out, following the tractor and wagon with my

legs ankle deep in mud, looking at the huge pile of refuse that was left

behind by our little group of refugees and thinking, "Now THIS is REAL


   At the end Algorik of Valkarth had the only good fire because he had

it set at a corner of his tent fly (which would now be definately against

fire code) and was charging everyone a handfull of grass or rushed as a

toll to stand around it.  The mat that he had built up out of his "tax"

kept his fire pit from flooding out.


Ritter Baron Karl Aerdigwidder von Zauberberg, C.P.

Baron Andelcrag, Middle Kingdom

Saepe errabimus sed semper honore!

Morte ex morte



From: schuldy  at abel.harvard.edu (Mark Schuldenfrei)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Loser Gets Pitt (was "Bigest interkingdom war/event")

Date: 11 Dec 1995 19:28:34 GMT

Organization: My own little corner.


I, Tibor, had written:

  I think that Duke Finnvarr has made it to all of them.  Something in my

memory says he's fought in all of them, too.  I've copied him on this note,

in case I'm wrong.


Garick Chamberlin  <Garick  at vonkopke.demon.co.uk> answered:

that's what he told me a couple of months ago. I seem to recall that one

other person has also fought in all of them and that one person has been

to all, but was unable to fight in one.




Private mail fron Finnvarr made it clearer.  Yes, he has not only attended

every Pennsic, and fought in every Pennsic, but more than that:

"I have fought in every Pennsic War.  In fact, as far as I can recall (all

those blows to the head, y'know), I've fought in every point battle that I

was qualified to compete in.  I've never fought in the unbelted champions'

battle, and seldom if ever have I been chosen individual champion when we had

individual contests for points [digression deleted -- Tibor]


Those exceptions aside, I have fought in every woods battle, bridge battle,

town battle, field battle, etc."


Long Live Finnvarr, and may he fight a thousand more!  (If he wants to :-)


On other folks, he mentioned were Merowald has attended all Pennsics, but

didn't fight three years ago.  And Foscadh O'Dubha had been to and fought at

all Pennsic Wars.




Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy  at math.harvard.edu)



From: hhoffman  at castaway.cc.uwf.EDU

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Loser Gets Pitt (was "Bigest interkingdom war/event")

Date: 11 Dec 1995 23:57:20 -0500

Organization: The Internet


>Other than Duke Meriald de Sylvastan, has any one else made it to ALL the

>Pensic wars?



O.K. I talked to Signy Dimmraedella and asked her.  (When in doubt, go

straight to the source.)  According to her, she and 3 other people, who all

originated from Northwoods, in the Middle Kingdom, are the only 4 people who

have been to every Pennsic.  The other 3 are Merowald de Sylveaston,

Finnvarr de Taahe, and Foscadh O Doubhda.  (Please excuse any mistakes in

spelling these names.)



Arenal, Meridies

hhoffman at castaway.cc.uwf.edu



From: mjc  at telerama.lm.com (Monica Cellio)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: info on Horde and Pennsic I

Date: 29 Aug 1996 15:38:28 -0400

Organization: Telerama Public Access Internet, Pittsburgh, PA USA


I had asked for more information on the story of the Horde being given

Pennsic land as a protectorate.  Here is a reply I received from

Ts'vee'a bas Tseepora Levi, the person who compiled the history of

Pennsic that came out for Pennsic XX.



From: Gail A Lefkowitz <galst5+  at pitt.edu>

Subject: Pennsic History - Pennsic I and the Horde


In response to your request for information about claims by the Horde over

Cooper's Lake, here is what information I could find.  Feel free to post

this to the Rialto if you like.


I have heard the story for years, but could not locate a source regarding

the Horde being given guardianship of the Pennsic Lands at

Pennsic I.  Though I checked Finnvarr's Tales of the Midrealm Kings,

Orlando Ambrosius's History of the Middle Kingdom, Cariadoc's Miscellany,

and all the correspondence I received from Andrew of Seldom Rest, Merowald

de Sylveastan, Arastorm the Golden, and a variety of gentles who lived

through those times, I could not find citations of this story to Pennsic

I. After some research, it might be possible that this happened not at

Pennsic I, but at Pennsic II.


In Tales of the Midrealm Kings, Volume 1, by Finnvarr de Taahe (copyright

1982), page 43, is this tale of the Horde at Pennsic II:


"...no one yet knew how many Horde warriors trained within its borders

would fight for the East.  The kings and queens held a long court in the

torrid sun that afternoon (while sheltered under a pavilion themselves, of

course) where Angus was knighted and Sean Rubuaru was made Master of Arms

by the Eastern King, but that vital question remained unanswered.  It was

that evening, after the feast that Yang the Nauseating came before the

thrones and that Finnvarr rose to invest him as his royal viceroy of the

area west of the Debatable Lands, charged with their defense.  Immediately

Andrew popped up and likewise warranted Yang to defend that area known as

Newt's Camp for the Middle.  Yang was surprised but gleefully and with

mock solemnity announced that the Horde, charged with such heavy

responsibility for keeping the peace, had little choice but to attack

whoever broke it first, even if it meant fighting both sides at once..."


It might be useful to point out here that "Newt's Camp" was the site of

Pennsic I, a private campground outside Waterford, PA (near Erie, PA).

According to Finnvarr's account, the East appointed Yang to be

guardian of the lands "West of the Debatable Lands" which would be the

Shire of Afongara (West Virginia panhandle) or some part of Ohio, while

the Middle appointed Yang the guardian of Newt's Camp, which would be in

the Shire of Stormsport.  Pennsic II was not held at Newt's Camp, but

at a public park called St. Clair's Beach in Pittsburgh's South Hills.  

That park no longer exists, which could add some funny schtick to any

discussion of it being under any SCA group's guardianship.


To learn more about this story, it would probably be most helpful to go to

Dukes Cariadoc, Finnvarr, and Andrew.  And Yang, if he would answer

correspondence... :)


Thanks again for sending me the posts that have stories about Pennsic.  I

collect them, and hope someday to write another History of the Pennsic





Gail Lefkowitz          Whether you think you can or you can't

galst5+ at pitt.edu        You're right.



From: ddfr  at best.com (David Friedman)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Etymology of Pennsic

Date: 27 Sep 1996 05:45:53 GMT


In article <52erg4$en  at lombardi.wctc.net>, Sara Friedemann

<RandomSF at wctc.net> wrote:


> Since our first exposure to the SCA I have been

> trying to find the etymology of Pennsic.  


From "Pennsylvania" in analogy to "Punic."




ddfr at best.com



From: wwwaft  at access5.digex.net (Dexter Guptill)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Looking for Book - Murder At The War?

Date: 29 Oct 1996 13:48:35 -0500

Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA


Kim Pollard  <kim  at inna.net> wrote:

>I don't have it in front of me), and I think the spine is orange?  I

>picked this one up at Pennsic this year after hearing about it so often.

>It's not bad.  Moves well and covers SCA traditions pretty well, and

>though it IS supposed to be set in Pennsic, it's a weekend event and the

>names of people and places have been changed to protect the innocent



Actually, the book gives a fair picture of the Pennsic before the one

where I bought my first copy. Used to be field and bridge battles on

Saturday, with woods on Sunday. Then you packed up Sunday afternoon or

Monday morning. It's fairly typical of a Pennsic around '85-'87.


*** Dexter C. Guptill, Computer Services, American Federation of Teachers

*** Member, Hampden's Reg't of Foote (ECW), 49th VA Vol Inf, CSA (N-SSA)

*** AKA Ld. Erich von Kleinfeld, Stierbach, Atlantia (SCA)



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: orilee ireland-delfs <orilee_j_ireland-delfs  at wb.xerox.com>

Subject: AEthelmearc & Pennsic

Organization: Xerox

Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 14:07:36 GMT


Because I realize that this is concern for many of you (my connection to the

Rialto runs a few days behind....) I wanted to let you know what has been

settled re: Pennsic now that AEthelmearc will be a Kingdom.


Duchess Lisa Delorosa, Middle Kingdom Seneschal, Baroness Rhainnon the

Curious, East Kingdom Seneschal, and I sat down at Pennsic 25 to work out our

"working" agreement for Pennsic.


Essentially, the bottom line is: AEthelmearc doesn't want it!  We recognize

that it is a 25 year tradition between the East and the Middle and there is no

reason for AEthelmearc's change in status to interfere with that.  The only

trick is that the only person who can pull sanction on the event, and the

person who will have to deal with any modern legal problems that come out of

Pennsic, is the AEthelmearc Seneschal.


So, AEthelmearc has agreed to not mess with Pennsic (attempt to change the

date or location), and the East and Middle have promised to keep the

AEthelmearc Seneschal "in the loop".  In return, AEthelmearc gets some money

to compensate us for the wear and tear on our officers and people.


If you want to see the full text of the agreement, it is on the AEthelmearc

Web Page



Where and how AEthelmearc as a Kingdom "plays" at Pennsic will depend upon the

usual process the Kings of the East and Middle go through for allies and such.

For Pennsic 27 (which will be our first as a Kingdom), that will be decided

by our second King and Queen.


In service to the stopping of rumors and speculation and to the dissemination

of information : )


Mistress Orianna Fridrikskona

Seneschal, AEthelmearc



Date: Sat, 02 Nov 1996 11:16:07 -0600

To: markh  at risc.sps.mot.com (Mark S. Harris)

From: Chris and Elisabeth Zakes <moondrgn  at flash.net>

Subject: Re: Looking for Book - Murder At The War?


>An earlier poster said the book had the war being just a weekend. Do

>you remember when Pennsic War was just a weekend and when it changed?

>I know that they've lengthened the official length at least once since

>I've been in the SCA.

>Stefan li Rous


My first Pennsic was #9. It was pretty much a weekend event back then, so

was #10, althought there were some people who arrived a day or two early,

and didn't leave until Monday. The next time we went was #16. IIRC, the

"official" start was opening court, sometime on Friday, but people had been

arriving since the previous weekend, so it was a de-facto week-long event by






From: bronwynmgn  at aol.com (Bronwynmgn)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Pennsic query

Date: 5 May 1997 02:20:16 GMT


t5nf at aol.com (T5NF) writes:

>I am wondering if it is possible to camp at Pennsic for the last few days

>without being a sca member or camping  with a group that has participated

>in the land grab.


Yes, It is.  Single campers (those not pre-registering with a group) may

arrive any time after August 3rd, according to the Pre-Pennsic booklet.

There are usually several areas of land set aside for single campers.

Those who are not SCA members pay a slightly higher fee than members do.


Be aware that things have changed a bit since Pennsic 18 (my first war

also). For one thing, we are running close to 10,000 people now.  If I

remember correctly, there were only 5700+ at Pennsic 18.  New camping

areas have been opened and new shower houses built.  The enforcement of

rules regarding reasonable attempts at pre-17th century garb is much

stricter. You may not wear any accessories suggesting supernatural

origins in public areas (ie elf ears, fangs, etc).  Nor may you wear

blatantly modern clothing except when just coming back onto or leaving the

Pennsic site.  Eyeglasses and modern footwear, as well as modern bathing

suits at the swimming holes are acceptable.  The schedule has changed a

good bit.  Everyone must leave on Sunday, 8/17 - you can't stay over till

Monday anymore.  Battles are tentatively scheduled to begin on 8/12 - no

more coming for Saturday and Sunday to catch the battles. Troll closes at

1am on 8/16 - you cannot come in as a new arrival if you arrive later than

that. And the fee schedule is changed - if you arrive before 8/8, the

nonmember price is $100.  If you arrive on 8/8 or after, the price is $80.

Basically you are paying for one week or two weeks and will pay for two

weeks if you arrive on 8/7.

Those are the major changes.  Feel free to post or email if you need more






From: stevem  at faculty.unipissing.ca

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Pennsic Sociology Question

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 18:55:41 -0600


I have been to and fought in all the Pennsic Wars, and the earlier ones were

definitely more intense than most of the recent ones.


I don't think the "Grand Tourney" had much to do with the change.  Most of us

on the Red side thought it was a bad joke, because no effort was made to even

up sides.  It was just another war.


I think the change has come on rather gradually, simply because a large

proportion of those fighting have been at a lot of wars and know that there

will be another one next year.  Also, I am sure the average age of the

fighters has gone up.  I'm now about the age of 2.5 average fighters at PWI or



However, PW is still pretty intense, compared to other wars I've been to --

Lilies War in Calontir and Double Wars in Nordmark, Drachenwald.  Who wins at

Pennsic matters a lot more to those who fight and those who are in charge.


PW 23 -- The Bad One -- showed that the desire to win at any cost is just

under the surface lurking.  After years of seeing improvementin courtesy and

comradely feeling, I was shocked by how bad it was (the number of my friends

who were injured was amazing).


But PW 23  shocked  a lot of other people, and most have been on better

behavior since, probably because they realize that a couple of ugly Pennsics

in a row might kill the war fighting.


On another point, I note that war fighting at Pennsic 26 was considerably less

popular as a spectator activity than at any other war that wasn't raining cats

and dogs (like 8 or 10).





From: vanishwood  at aol.com (Vanishwood)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Pennsic Death Ruled Suicide

Date: 17 Aug 1998 20:12:36 GMT


Just an FYI, before  the speculation mounts,

condolances to the family


Ethelwulf Kildare


from the pittsburgh tribune:  http://www.triblive.com/news/rbrief17.html


Hanged body ruled suicide


The death of a man whose body was found hanging in a Butler County campground

that hosted a medieval festival over the weekend has been ruled a suicide,

authorities said Sunday. The body of Joseph Justin Tacconelli, 37, of

Williamstown, N.J., was found Saturday morning in a wooded area of the Cooper's

Lake Campground in Worth Township. The campground was the site of a festival

for the Society for Creative Anachronism. The SCA is an international

organization whose members strive to research and recreate the best aspects of

pre-17th century European history at weekend get-togethers.



Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 19:03:50 -0700

From: "Wanda Pease" <wandapease  at bigfoot.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Pennsic Pig Roast


Actually has a great deal more to do with the distaste of people who

were there being subjected to the screaming of the terrified pig as a

bunch of urban incompetents bungled the kill so it went on and on, and

then couldn't even clean up the incredible mess they had made.  Been

there, heard that, NEVER want to go through it again.  If someone

wants to have a professional do it so it would be kosher (if it

weren't a pig of course!), quick and painless, then undertake to use

everything except the squeal that didn't happen, you might get the

Coopers to relent.


I realize that the meat I eat did not "go gently into that dark

night", but I don't want to have to deal with it on my vacation.


Regina (was it Pennsic IX or X?)

- -----Original Message-----

From: Karen <tyrca  at yahoo.com>

To: sca-cooks  at Ansteorra.ORG <sca-cooks  at Ansteorra.ORG>

Date: Wednesday, April 28, 1999 6:56 PM

Subject: SC - Pennsic Pig Roast


>Elaina reminded us:


>ya'll probably already know this, but you -will- have to have the pig

>killed and dressed off site.  one of the oldest rules at pennsic is


>slaughtering of live animals on site".



>Yea, don't want to be labelled cultists, or Satan worshippers, or

>anything like that.  Pig mutilators.  Not a good thing.



>Lady Tyrca Ivarsdottir

>-"Honesty is Everything"

>-->-->-{( at )

>AoA, OPN, ASTA, oleander

>Barony of Elfsea (Life is Good in Elfsea!)

>(all sorts of places in and around Ft. Worth, TX)

>Kingdom of Ansteorra



Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 05:43:12 -0600 (MDT)

From: Mary Morman <memorman  at oldcolo.com>

Subject: RE: SC - Pigs for Pennsic.


as wanda has already described, there was an incident many years ago ( i

was there but don't remember the year, maybe pennsic nine or ten ) when

the horde brought in a pig, butchered it badly, disturbed their neighbors

for a long ways around, and then didn't even bother to bury the guts,

attracting swarms of flies and leaving an -awful- mess.


not that any of you would make such a muck of it, i'm just repeating the

long, longstanding pennsic rule - no slaughtering of live animals on






Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 03:06:43 -0500

From: LYN M PARKINSON <allilyn  at juno.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Pennsic Pig Roast


>>Regina (was it Pennsic IX or X?)<<


Must have been IX, I did X as my first.  They were describing it and

still shuddering.



allilyn at juno.com, Barony Marche of the Debatable Lands, Pittsburgh, PA

Kingdom of Aethelmearc



Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 19:30:03 -0500

From: Heitman <fiondel  at fastrans.net>

Subject: SC - Perpetrator correction--OOP


>as wanda has already described, there was an incident many years ago ( i

>was there but don't remember the year, maybe pennsic nine or ten ) when

>the horde brought in a pig, butchered it badly, disturbed their neighbors

>for a long ways around, and then didn't even bother to bury the guts,

>attracting swarms of flies and leaving an -awful- mess.


Forgive me, oh munificient list-master, but I just *have* to correct

this. This incident pre-dates me.  It does not, however, predate any

number of my brothers.


So, here's the scoop.


First, it was not a pig, but either a goat or a lamb.  Second, the

poor hapless creature was lead around Pennsic for a day or two

before the butchering, treated as a "pet" ("Why, yes, children,

of course you can pet him), and then was butchered for the evening

meal, in front of a lot of people, including the aforementioned

children. Third, the "remains" were (sort of) dealt with.  They

were buried, shallowly, and the Coopers found the mess about a

week after the war.  Fourth, the butchering job was VERY bad.


And, finally, it was NOT the Horde.  It was the Tuchux.


Names of reliable witnesses available upon request.





Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 11:50:30 -0400

From: Ian Gourdon <agincort  at raex.com>

Subject: SC - Re: Pennsic Slaughter


> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 05:43:12 -0600 (MDT)

> From: Mary Morman <memorman  at oldcolo.com>

> Subject: RE: SC - Pigs for Pennsic.

> as wanda has already described, there was an incident many years ago ( i

> was there but don't remember the year, maybe pennsic nine or ten ) when

> the horde brought in a pig, butchered it badly, disturbed their neighbors

> for a long ways around, and then didn't even bother to bury the guts,

> attracting swarms of flies and leaving an -awful- mess.

> not that any of you would make such a muck of it, i'm just repeating the

> long, long standing pennsic rule - no slaughtering of live animals on

> site.

> elaina


I was there too, but I remember a sheep, and the main complaint being

(as there were no witnesses outside of the Tuchuks themselves) that they

had allowed their children to witness the slaughter. Sensibilities being

what they are, the Coopers were asked to ban such activities by the

imaginative and outraged.

- --

Ian Gourdon of Glen Awe



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: D... at best.com (David Friedman)

Date: 1999/05/27

Subject: Re: pointless pennsic


In article <374D4EEE.6... at mindspring.com>, Cumhail

<dr_bo... at mindspring.com> wrote:

>No points - no victor.  Neither army will hold possession of the

>debatable lands when the last hungover, drum-banging, loincloth wearing

>reveler wends their way home.  


Just to correct a persistent bit of SCA mythology ...  . The original

excuse for Pennsic was not that the East and the Middle were fighting over

Pittsburgh--the Barony Marche of the debatable lands didn't exist at the

time. The original excuse was that we were fighting over whose banner

would go first when we invaded the West.





Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 20:50:16 -0700

From: david friedman <ddfr  at best.com>

Subject: RE: SC - Cooking at Faire


At 5:14 PM -0700 6/4/99, Deborah Schumacher wrote:

>Has anyone done a food booth? I must admit I wonder the logistics of it. Do

>any of the major wars have period or periodish  food booths?

>Estrella had one that had hand held tarts and stuffs, they seemed pretty

>periodish and was pretty good too.  What about Pennsic or Gulf Wars?

>Just curious,


So far as I can recall, the only attempt at really period food for sale at

Pennsic was the Sated Tyger, a cookshop run largely by Marion of

Edwinstowe, that for some years produced period food with period technology

(except for the refrigerators), including two big clay ovens. Marion then

developed some serious medical problems (now mostly taken care of), and I

think Johan (who was, I believe, the other principle) decided he was tired

of losing money, so they closed down. More recently, Marion has been

running battlefield bakery, which sells periodish food at Pennsic.


Ras writes:

>my favorite

>place is The Battlefield Bakery which sells completely authentic period pies,

>tarts, and other tasty morsels.


I don't think that is correct. Some of Marion's things may be period, but

I'm pretty sure she does not have a policy of limiting herself to things

for which she has period recipes.






Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 17:02:13 -0400

From: Christine A Seelye-King <mermayde  at juno.com>

Subject: SC - Pennsic Food


Ok, no s**t, there I was, at my second Pennsic War (um, that would have

been #12).  I was an apprentice chef (mundanely) at the time, and had

been approached by William the Finn and others (Baron Dur was one of

them) to become a partner in the Pennsic Inn.  It was modeled loosely on

the tavern from the Sanctuary books, and even used a Unicorn's head on

the mugs.  I put money into it, and agreed to cook for the war.  I went

on a two week vacation that entailed cooking over an open campfire, with

one cooking vessel, a 4' diameter shallow dished metal 'bowl', set on

rocks over the fire.  I cooked stew for every lunch and dinner meal in

that thing.  (And rice, some bread things, scrambled eggs, etc.)  We even

went out and found two sizable stones to put in it.  (Someone brought

them back to me and gave them to me in Court once we got home, she said

she just knew I would be bereft without my valuable cooking tools!)  I

came down with a case of bronchitis out of it, and when I got home I

couldn't go back to work for a week because I was so ill.  (Boy, was my

Chef mad!)

       Anyway, this was the first year that the Satyd Tiger ran too, and we

were aware of the competition, even though I never made it out of camp

long enough to go there.  Talk about a busman's holiday!  We had

entertainment in the dining areas at night, and had a courtyard for other

activities. I think there were even some bed spaces that were there for

drinkers who couldn't make it back to camp.  There were roughly 2,000

people in attendance at the War at that time.  We made money out of it,

but William was robbed on the way home, and ended up paying all of us our

shares out of his own money.  I did not participate the second and final


       The next real cooking booth I was aware of was Pagan Sisters.  Then the

Middle Eastern place from Newcastle.  (I may have that backwards).  I am

actually glad the health department comes out and inspects the food

booths now.  I was there before it was a requirement, and am happy to see

it taken more seriously now.

       Now, I just cook in camp, where we entertain a lot.  (Like 1,000 people

or so for the average Meridian Pennsic Party.  We're not doing the

cooking for that this year, though, and I'm not singing in the choir,

either. I am going to have help in my merchant booth, and I am getting

there early.  I may just have some honest-to-God free time this year!


       Just rambling in Pennsic reminiscences and plans,




Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 09:49:37 -0400

From: Jeff Gedney <JGedney  at dictaphone.com>

To: sca-east-digest  at indra.com

Subject: Re: EK: Solar Shower?




For the sake of accuracy, the Center for Disease Control identified PW13's Episode of "Pennsic Plague" as a "Norwalk Virus" - - an intestinal Virus, (one of a family of similar viruses first identified in Norwalk, Ohio) and spread principally by ingesting food or water which is contaminated by infected stool, in much the same fashion as bacillary dysentery (caused by the bacterium Shigella Sonei), but not like Amoebic Dysentery (which is an ulcerative infection of the

bowel, caused by a protozoan, Entamoeba histolytica), which is in intreated drinking water.

Both Norwalk and Shigella are considered "food-borne" illness, in that their principle route of infection is through improperly cleaned food or utensils (or hands). Ameobic Dysentery can be caused by swimming, bathing, or drinking water which has the wild protozoan living in it in sufficient quantity.

Shigella can also be spread by flies. Flies can become a principle vector for contamination of food in areas with sever outbreaks.

I believe that flies do not spread Norwalk virus.


IIRC, The chirurgionate got a commendation form the CDC for keeping the highly contagious virus in a relatively small minority of the population in very primitive conditions.


Pennsic 13,  IIRC, was indeed a dry war. There may be a correlation. A lot of

watertable concentration happens when wells dry up. Also when the wells get low, a lot of the junk floating near the top of the well water, like most algaes, a lot of other microflora, and many farm and industrial chemicals, get sucked into the water supply, where ordinarily they would not be picked up.



(Who remembers the year of the plague, and the concept of "two exits no waiting". Our camp had very little infection, that year, but mainly because we got real psychotic about cleanliness as soon as we found out about the disease.)



From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" <nicolaaMUNGED  at columbus.rr.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: pennsic attendence

Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 17:55:24 -0400


Andrea Gideon wrote in message <7ppoub$h6f$1  at autumn.news.rcn.net>...

>Does anyone have the totals yet?  I arrived on Thursday and had a pretty

>high number and just wondered where we ended.


The Pennsic War Chronicle listed 10061 in Saturday's issue. However, the

issue is put to bed on Friday evening, so this number wouldn't include any

folks who arrived after that (although the number would probably be fairly



My husband arrived on Wednesday and got a medallion number in the 11000s.

Medallion numbers no longer correlate with actual attendance, since everyone

who preregisters is assigned one, whether they end up attending or not.





From: r19832345  at aol.com (R19832345)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: pennsic attendence

Date: 24 Aug 1999 12:53:20 GMT


the number put up by the Coopers at the end of troll was 10,127  this was the

final tally


xaviar7  at yahoo.com



From: dukeandrew  at aol.com (DukeAndrew)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Tick's at pennsic

Date: 28 Aug 1999 07:01:11 GMT


>>>(especially for those who fought in that famous woods battle when both sides

>lost to the hornets)

>That was at PW IV

>                            Andrew


I believe it was Pennsic XVI - I remember it *was* Iselan's war --

unless it happened more than once (quite possible).<<<


I was co-autocrat and major workhorse/medic for PW IV.  One of my squires

"killed" an Eastern fighter who fell on a hollow log filled with yellow

jackets. They did not take kindly to this and consequently won the war,

clearing the woods in fine style. The Easter fighter had well over 40 welts on

various portions of his anatomy. We did have one Lady suffer from anaphylaxsis

due to a sting of one of the yellowjackets and managed to treat her with




From: "Jonathan E. Feinstein" <jonathan  at sc2.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Tick's at pennsic

Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 19:30:09 -0400


Greycat Sharpclaw <greycat  at idt.net> wrote:

> There is an allegation that dukeandrew  at aol.com (DukeAndrew) wrote:

> >(especially for those who fought in that famous woods battle when both sides

> >lost to the hornets)

> >

> >That was at PW IV

> >

> >                           Andrew

> I believe it was Pennsic XVI - I remember it *was* Iselan's war --

> unless it happened more than once (quite possible).

> Pennsic IV is famous for being flooded (Pennsic Puddle).


    For those of us who were there, it was also the battle we all lost to

the hornets. The woods battle at at PW XVI was (if I have the year right -

they all run together after the first five or so) the one we avoided

fighting with the bees. At PW IV the battle was fought to its conclusion.

Trust me, the hornets won!


    Yosef (a relative Pennsic newbie - I missed the first 2)



Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 10:43:38 -0400

From: "Jeff Gedney" <JGedney  at dictaphone.com>

Subject: Re: SC - reasonably safe water at Pennsic


> Don't know why you folks are panicking about the water at Pennsic, and the

> port-a-castle two step. I've been going to Pennsic since 22, and have never


The Pennsic Plague occured (and I well remember it...), at Pennsic XIII.

At that time the Chirurgeonate and the event staff were caught completely

off guard. The Chirurgeonate did a masterful job of controlling the outbreak

to less than 10 % of the population, forming quarantined areas and setting

aside portapotties just for the sick people. In fact they got a letter of

commendation from the CDC for the job they did.

It was confirmed to be a water-borne Norwalk virus, and was present in

the water samples taken at the site.


Serious efforts were made by the Coopers as a result to upgrade the well

and water distribution system on site, in many cases rendering entire farm

fields unuseable for agriculture due to the presence of underground piping.

these took years to complete.


these outbreaks were regular occurences as these improvements were

made, and Pennsic increased in size and length of time, outstripping the

improvements capacities.


But they were nowhere near as severe, occurring less and less as

improvements were put into place, and the populace were more and more

aware of basic water sanitation.


By Pennsic 22 the size of pensic had peaked at or around the present

number of 8-10 thousand, and most of the cases were then isolated to

more immune challenged people. That is not to say that these precautions

should be abandoned. Far from it.  


The panics last year ( and I was a part of that ) were caused by the

drought, as the drought casues a concentration of the nasties in the local

water table. Pennsic Water facilities were able to handle it, specifically

because of a new well that was much deeper (as I am led to understand).

My exwife and many of my household are Chrurgeons, and I assure you that

these cases DID still occur, though not in outbreak severity, and were

handled with sufficient precaution to prevent spread.

Also I personally know of at least three cases of pennsic trots which were

not taken to Chirurgeons point but handled in the affected person's

camp site. ( one was actually taken to a local motel to allow the use at

need of a flush toilet, shower and clean sheets and running water. They

were up and around in a day or so ).





Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 11:46:18 -0500

To: sca-cooks  at ansteorra.org

From: Ted Eisenstein <Alban  at socket.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pennsic Bread Baking


>What runestone??? There is a "Runstone Hill". Been there. Walked up

>the #$%  at ! thing too many times. If there is a runestone, someone

>please tell me the story behind it.


It was carved mostly by Lars Vilhlamson (whose name I always misspell),

now a Calontir triple peer, and proprietor of Please Touch pottery at the

top of the Street of Gold. I belive the runes say "Annual Enemies,

Eternal Friends", and something about the date it was put up, and who

did it. It is, indeed, on Runestone Hill, by (if memory serves) a flat spot

somewhere vaguely in the middle - and surrounded by lots of campers.


You could always ask him for better details, of course.





Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 09:38:01 -0400

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcmann4  at earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] question: Medieval restaurant at Pennsic

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks  at ansteorra.org>


On 18 Jul 2003, at 22:21, david friedman wrote:


You are probably thinking of Battlefield Bakery. That was Marion of

Edwinstowe's second project, some years after the Sated Tyger, which

she was also part of. As best I recall, the food was a mix of period

and perioid.





I remember both with pleasure.  The Sated Tyger had two clay ovens labelled

"Hansel" and "Gretel".  The Battlefield Bakery was not only a tasty

establishment, but a generous one. At the close of the day's business,

leftovers were delivered to gentles working at Troll, Security, etc.


::sigh:: Ou sont les Pennsiques d'antan?


Brighid ni Chiarain *** mka Robin Carroll-Mann

Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom



Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 12:01:28 -0400

From: "Phlip" <phlip  at 99main.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] question: Medieval restaurant at Pennsic

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks  at ansteorra.org>



The Battlefield Bakery was not only a tasty

establishment, but a generous one.  At the close of the day's business,

leftovers were delivered to gentles working at Troll, Security, etc.


::sigh:: Ou sont les Pennsiques d'antan?


Brighid ni Chiarain *** mka Robin Carroll-Mann



Ah, YES!!!! The year they invented the vegetarian pasties, they were giving

the ones at the end of the day to Chirurgeon's Point. Although my usual

shift was from noon to 4, somehow I always made it up there every evening,

in case Battlefield Bakery had dropped some off. The rest of the Chirurgeons

quickly learned who got the vegetable ones ;-)


Now, guys, I'm most certainly not a vegetarian, but these were wonderful.

And don't get me wrong, the meat ones were good, but these were exquisite.

I'd kill for that recipe...





From: Chris Zakes <moondrgn at earthlink.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Do sheet walls still make Westerners boggle?

Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 01:19:33 GMT


On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 21:57:53 +0000 (UTC),  an orbital mind-control

laser caused Arval <arval at mittle.users.panix.com> to write:


>>>The style of camping that I described as typical in the East --

>>>well-defined boundaries around camps and reasonably well-defined

>>>walkways -- is found at events other than Pennsic, even very small

>>>ones, or at least was back in the days when I was attending a lot of

>>>events. And it pre-dates formal land allocation at Pennsic.  

>jk replied:

>> But that wasn't always so in the east OR at PENNSIC.  

>It was the norm as early as Pennsic X, at least in the more central

>parts of the event.  Are you thinking earlier than that?




I can recall seeing sheet walls and roped-off campsites at Pennsic IX,

including a single pup tent in a roped-off space that was maybe 10x15



It wasn't *every* campsite, but most of them had some form of boundary



        -Tivar Moondragon



Did you not ask why against one man they send a hundred swords?

Because they know this one man for a friend of mine!


               -Cyrano in "Cyrano de Bergerac" by Edmond Rostand



From: jk <klessig at cox.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Do sheet walls still make Westerners boggle?

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:59:05 -0700


Arval <arval at mittle.users.panix.com> wrote:

>>>The style of camping that I described as typical in the East --

>>>well-defined boundaries around camps and reasonably well-defined

>>>walkways -- is found at events other than Pennsic, even very small

>>>ones, or at least was back in the days when I was attending a lot of

>>>events. And it pre-dates formal land allocation at Pennsic.  

>jk replied:

>> But that wasn't always so in the east OR at PENNSIC.  

>It was the norm as early as Pennsic X, at least in the more central

>parts of the event.  Are you thinking earlier than that?


>Arval                                          arval at mittle.users.panix.com


if I recall, 9 was my first, but I remember at least 3 before the mass

quantities of walls went up, and before land grab became such a

problem. [ And land grab, I think needs massive changes, such as every

year 30% of the groups [at random] get no priority]





From: quester at infionline.net (Harold Groot)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Do sheet walls still make Westerners boggle?

Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 09:26:25 GMT


On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 21:57:53 +0000 (UTC), Arval

<arval at mittle.users.panix.com> wrote:


>I wrote:

>>>The style of camping that I described as typical in the East --

>>>well-defined boundaries around camps and reasonably well-defined

>>>walkways -- is found at events other than Pennsic, even very small

>>>ones, or at least was back in the days when I was attending a lot of

>>>events. And it pre-dates formal land allocation at Pennsic.  


>jk replied:

>> But that wasn't always so in the east OR at PENNSIC.  


>It was the norm as early as Pennsic X, at least in the more central

>parts of the event.  Are you thinking earlier than that?

>Arval                                          arval at mittle.users.panix.com


I think you exaggerate this a bit, Arval - or at least, our

recollections differ.  While there were some groups with mass camps

and fenced borders back at Pennsic X, I would not say that they were

"the norm" back then.  I would put their numbers at less than 25%.

The percentage grew each year, however, so they would have reached a

simple majority not too much later - maybe Pennsic XV?


Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 23:09:52 -0400

From: "Phlip" <phlip at 99main.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pennsic Potluck, revisited- OT sidenote

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>


> We arrived Monday to find that our assigned place in the Disability

> Camp was right next to the tent of the lady who had died on Sunday. I

> never met her, but her friends were understandably shaken.  If I had

> arrived as planned, I would have gotten there in the middle of that.

> It made this Pennsic rather subdued.  I didn't "do" much this year...

> except relax... and that was enough.


I can understand that, but for those of you who were wondering, the lady,

according to the stories I have heard, was quite well aware that she was in

very serious shape, and chose to come to Pennsic anyway. It is our belief

that she chose to die there, and we all wish her a gentle passing.

Can't say as I blame her, either.


Saint Phlip,




Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: djheydt at kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)

Subject: Re: A Pennsic History Question

Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd.

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 20:37:47 GMT


Lyle H. Gray <gray at no.spam.cs.umass.edu.invalid> wrote:

>"Dana Tweedy" <reddfrogg at Nospam.com> wrote

>> Does anyone know where there might be a list of the winners of the

>> Pennsic War, going back to Pennsic I?


>> I'm working on a project that commemorates Pennsic, and I would like

>> to be able to indicate which side won the war that year.

>The Midrealm won Pennsic I.  I _think_ (but am not sure) that the Middle

>Kingdom won the first 10 Pennsic Wars.

>BTW, Pennsic VI was the first Pennsic held at Cooper's Lake.


_Time_ magazine reviewed Pennsic I.  Got a whole page.  I used to

have the page around; can't find it at present; but a good

library ought to have bound volumes from which you can photocopy.

All I can remember offhand is the Queen of the Middle coming home

to a sinkful of dirty dishes and realizing she wasn't Queen any



Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin                         Dorothy J. Heydt

Mists/Mists/West                               Albany, California

PRO DEO ET REGE                               djheydt at kithrup.com



From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" <sclark55 at rogers.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: A Pennsic History Question

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 21:06:19 GMT


> >The Midrealm won Pennsic I.  I _think_ (but am not sure) that the Middle

> >Kingdom won the first 10 Pennsic Wars.


If you can find a copy, the booklet for Pennsic XX had a nice history



Quickie summary:

PW I - Middle

PW II - disputed

PW III - Middle

PW IV - Middle

PW V - Middle

PW VI - tie

PW VII - Middle

PW VIII - tie

PW IX - Middle

PW X - East

PW XI - East

PW XII - East

PW XIII - tie

PW XIV - tie

PW XV - East

PW XVI - Middle

PW XVII - Middle


PW XIX - East

PW XX - Middle (my first Pennsic)





From: "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott at csuohio.edu>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: A Pennsic History Question

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 22:01:44 -0400


On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 01:02:26 GMT, Dana Tweedy

<reddfrogg at Nospam.com> wrote in rec.org.sca:


> "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott at csuohio.edu> wrote


>> On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 21:06:19 GMT, Susan Carroll-Clark

>> <sclark55 at rogers.com> wrote in rec.org.sca:


>>>>> The Midrealm won Pennsic I.  I _think_ (but am not

>>>>> sure) that the Middle Kingdom won the first 10

>>>>> Pennsic Wars.


>>> If you can find a copy, the booklet for Pennsic XX had a nice history

>>> section.


>>> Quickie summary:


>> [...]


>>> PW XIII - tie


>> The plague won.


>>> PW XIV - tie


>> The rain won.


>>> PW XV - East

>>> PW XVI - Middle

>>> PW XVII - Middle

>>> PW XVIII - East

>>> PW XIX - East

>>> PW XX - Middle (my first Pennsic)


>> The bees won one somewhere in here, but I'm damned if I can

>> remember which.


> The bees won Pennsic XVI, I was working the woods as a

> chiurgeon that war. I remember the battle being called

> off due to yellow jackets.


> My first Pennsic was Pennsic XIV.  The rain stopped before

> the opening ceremonies that year, so you really can't say

> the rain won.  


Considering the number of people who were flooded out, and

the genuine need for a soup kitchen at the time, I'm happy

to say that the rain won.  (And the mud was a problem the

whole war.)


> Pennsic IV was the famous "Pennsic Puddle".


Yes, but it was basically a weekend event.  Had it been a

week or two long, the rain wouldn't have been nearly as

memorable. PW IV was in my neck of the woods (though before

me), so I've heard quite a bit at first hand, and my

impression is that PW XIV may well have been worse on an

absolute scale.





From: alchem at en.com (James Koch)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: A Pennsic History Question

Date: 1 Sep 2004 21:02:05 -0700


"Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant_NOSPAM at indiana.edu> wrote

> Brian M. Scott wrote:

> > Yes, but it was basically a weekend event.  Had it been a

> > week or two long, the rain wouldn't have been nearly as

> > memorable.  PW IV was in my neck of the woods (though before

> > me), so I've heard quite a bit at first hand, and my

> > impression is that PW XIV may well have been worse on an

> > absolute scale.


> I imagine the deluge on the tail end of this year's Pennsic would be

> history-making under that old criterion. You're right, of course. Since the

> extension of Pennsic to a two-week event, it would have to be a hugely long,

> multi-day downpour to enter the legend that is "Pennsic Puddle."


> Effingham


I have been attending Pennsic since the first and I have never seen it

rain as hard and for as long as at this past event.  That said, the

total amount of water that fell probably did not equal and certainly

did not exceed the rain that hit us at Pennsic 4.  Pennsic 4 was

actually longer than a standard weekend event.  In fact it was the

first non-weekend Pennsic.  It started on Thursday night and ran

through Monday (Labor Day).  The rain started before the event on

Tuesday morning around 9:00am and continued on and off until Thursday

evening when it began to rain steadily.  It was never a torrential

downpour as at this past Pennsic, it was a constant rain tapering off

to a drizzle and then back to an average rain.  What happened was a

low pressure zone stalled over Lake Erie and just sat there for a week

spinning the same clouds back over us.  So basically the entire event

was rained out with the exception of the woods battle which went on

regardless. We toughed it out until Sunday afternoon when Duke Andrew

announced that the rest of the event had been cancelled and we were

all to leave the site immediately.  So began the death march to the

cars. At that point nothing short of a helicopter could have gotten

back to the campground by the woods.  The muck was too thick for a

keel and too thin for a wheel.  After we left, it continued to rain

through Monday.  Several local rivers overflowed and there was

extensive flooding all around Northeast Ohio.  So imagine if at this

past Pennsic it started raining on the evening of the last Wednesday

and continued to rain steadily night and day through Sunday.

Basically stretch out the rain we had and add a bit more.


Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)



From: Phlip <phlip at 99main.com>

Date: September 15, 2004 9:56:54 PM CDT

To: SPCA <spca-wascaerfrig at yahoogroups.com>, PennsicW10 at yahoogroups.com

Subject: [spca-wascaerfrig] Fw: [EK] RE: Early Pennsic, was Tuchux


Thought this might interest you guys ;-)


Saint Phlip,



----- Original Message -----

From: "Duchess Gabrielle" <duchessg at direcway.com>

To: <sca-east at indra.com>

Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 10:50 PM

Subject: [EK] RE: Early Pennsic, was Tuchux


> Greetings from Duchess Gabrielle, East Kingdom Archivist,

> Following is an interesting letter from the EK Archives regarding

> Pennsic War VI, dated 26 March AS XI:

> "Herewith my report on the two war-sites that I have seen, as you requested

> of me one week ago in the Shire of Morgana.  The two sites are the

> campground designated Cooper's Lake, and the Conference Center of the

> New York State University College at Fredonia.

> Price: The price is right for each of the sites. For the Cooper's Lake site,

> the people who are organizing it are talking in the range of $3 per person

> for the weekend.  At the Fredonia site, the charge is $1/person/night, and

> the Seneschale is talking a charge of $1/person/weekend to cover extra costs

> such as renting a field for additional parking.  For someone who stays two

> nights (i.e. arrives Friday night and leaves before Sunday evening) the cost

> is therefore the same, and not much different no matter what the

> person's plans are.

> Location: Again, not much to choose from, considering the distance that most

> people have to travel to get to either of the sites.  The Fredonia site is

> marginally closer to the northern part of the East Kingdom, and certain

> parts of the Midrealm (i.e. Northwoods & Neorlanda).  Similarly the Cooper's

> Lake site is closer to the southern areas of both Kingdoms.

> Facilities Layout: The Fredonia site is laid out in hilly woods, with

> moderately little open level ground.  There are sufficient campsites for

> small tents in the woods near the lodge that the remaining pavilions which

> require large expanses of land could be set up in the open fields.   There is

> a good deal of up-and-down motion required to get from one place to another.

> There is a very nice lodge with flush toilets, and there are also

> pit-toilets around the area near the lodge.  There is adequate running water

> for the people for the weekend, though one will have to trek to the lodge to

> get it.  Since there is only sufficient open space for pitching pavilions,

> there would be no chance for an open-field battle at the war.  There is a

> lot of wooded area with many mapped (and more unmapped) trails running

> through it, and certainly there is sufficient room for any number of

> woods-battle scenarios.  There are also several bridges. Due to the very

> hilly nature of the ground, which would make flanking movements tricky, it

> would be an interesting place to hold such a war.  There is no problem with

> drainage in the rain.

> Facilities and Layout: The Cooper's Lake site is laid out around a small

> lake. Due to out late notice this year, we would only be able to get one

> half of the facilities, those all being on one half of the lake, away from

> the lodge and small general store.  The organizers are proposing setting up

> the camp in a medium-sized open field down by the lake, which they claim to

> be perfectly dry in summer.  Should rain of Pennsic Puddle intensity be

> falling, they have two other fields which are up the hill from the lake, but

> unfortunately within view of I-79.  There is sufficient space to camp and

> still have some nearby fields for challenge matches before the war.  In

> addition, if the weather is good, the upper fields will be excellent for

> field battles, and the surrounding woods are quite reasonable for woods

> battles of various sorts.  There is a medium large river/stream running

> through the site.  I do not know the exact layout of it in summer (it was

> swollen with runoff when I saw it) but it would seem to me that certain

> tactical maneuvers wouild be possible using it.  There is some running

> water, but not sufficient for a War.  The organizers have acknowledged this

> and plan to bring a water-truck in for the weekend.  There are also not

> sufficient toilet facilities, and they will be bringing in additional

> porta-sans for the weekend.

> Location: Fredonia site is located near Fredonia.  There is a small town

> about 4 miles away with stores & such in it.  The nearest hospital is in

> Fredonia/Dunkirk, about 30 minutes drive at sane speeds.  Cooper's Lake site

> has a small general store on site.  It is about 15 miles away from New

> Castle, a fairly large town which would undoubtedly have most needed

> supplies.  I forgot to ask about hospital location. (see footnote)

> Primary disadvantage: Fredonia-- Lack of open fighting field

> --Steepness of slopes with respect to setting up and breaking camp

> Cooper's Lake--We must share the site with other campers

> --Disadvantages of trucked water and toilet facilities

> Advantages: Fredonia--We have the site to ourselves and it is secluded from

> outside contact

> Cooper's Lake-- Large amounts of open room

> Both sites are easily accessible, but the access to the Cooper's Lake site

> is perhaps the easiest that I have ever seen for a tourney.

> Recommendation: That of the two, we pick the Cooper's Lake site as a

> war-site, but that we seriously consider the use of the Fredonia site for

> some smaller camping event such as a two-day Crown tourney when it is in the

> Wests turn to host that, or a King's Champion tourney or the like."

> (footnote that was referenced was not included in the carbon copy

> letter in the Archives)

> In Service to the East and the Society,

> Gabrielle van Nijenrode



From: Steve Mesnick <steffan at pobox.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Interesting posts

Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:08:09 -0400


> More recently than that; didn't the Battlefield Bakery use period

> recipes?  And I definitely remember their being around since I've

> been going to Pennsic, whereas the Sated Tyger was gone before I

> started going.


According to my lady wife (Countess Elspeth Keyfe of Neddingham)

who was involved with both ST and BB, yes, they did use period

recipes, mainly from "Cury on Englyshhe" and "Two 15th Century

Cookbooks", adapted for circumstances and tastes. Her

chicken/mushroom/tarragon pies, for example, were based on

"Hocchee", and Grete Pies were a combination of two recipes

from Cury.


Sated Tyger started at PW-11, although it began as the Carolingian

Meal Plan at PW-10. It lasted until PW-15, maybe 16. BB ran from

about PW 21 to 26 or so.


        Steffan ap Kennydd



From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Periodoid vs. Period Re: Interesting posts

Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:40:34 -0700


Jenne <jahb at lehigh.edu> wrote:

> > I won't swear none of the recipes were period, but on the whole I think

> > Battlefield Bakery was aiming at periodoid rather than period. Someone

> > who has better information may be able to correct me on that.


> For those playing the home game, His Grace is making a distinction

> between foods cooked from documented period recipes, and those cooked

> with documented period ingredients but not based on documented period

> recipes. :)


My lady wife, reading over my shoulder and with a much better memory

than mine for such details, believes that:


1. The Great Tarts were based on a period recipe for Great Pies.


2. The vegetarian tarts included potatoes.






From: linette at in.epix.net (C&HWood)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Pennsic, East vs. "Everyone else"?

Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:40:43 GMT


Hello from Linette de Gallardon!  I am forwarding a reply to the below

for Earl Ruslan:


georg <thegeorg at stny.rr.com> wrote:

>Gwen Morse wrote:

>> I heard what may or may not simply be wild gossip...


>> For Pennsic XXXIV, is it true that the East will have _no_ allies

>> fighting on their side? I heard that the King of the East and King of

>> the Midrealm were talking to each other and decided that the East

>> would fight without allies this Pennsic.


>> It seems like it would be less than interesting battles if that's

>> true.


>> Gwen

>I believe that Æthelmearc has chosen this year to fight on the side of

>the Middle in the interest of helping the numbers even out. In the past

>couple of years with Æthelmearc fighting on the side of the East, the

>Middle's army was ... considerably outnumbered.


I would like to bring some insight onto the fighter numbers at the

Pennsic War.


Currently, there are approximately 1600 heavy weapons fighters that

can take the field at Pennsic.  Of course this number is rarely

achieved, so it and the relative strengths of Kingdom and non-Kingdom

oriented groups are what I usually refer to as 'paper' troops.


The 'paper' numbers of the Kingdom and non-Kingdom oriented groups

that neighbor Pennsic tend to be relatively steady.  More times than

not the 'paper' numbers of those groups that are further away from

Pennsic can vary radically, but will not appreciably affect the

overall count since they bring far fewer 'paper' troops to begin with.


The overall number of heavy weapons fighters at Pennsic is lower since

the advent of Gulf Wars, which has radically reduced the 'paper'

strengths of Trimaris, Meridies, Calontir and Ansteorra.


Having been the Eastern War King once and the Eastern Warlord five

times since Pennsic 21 I have had a vested interest in trying to

ascertain the overall all 'paper' strengths of the Middle and its

Allies and the East and its Allies.


I can personally attest that I took extraordinary efforts, as the

Warlord of the East, to obtain as close to a even 'paper' strength

Pennsic as possible last year, through the seeking of alliances and

obtaining of services of the Kingdoms and groups that attend Pennsic.

To that end last years Pennsic had both sides having virtually even

'paper' strengths.


However, it is an easy trap to fall into to base the results of any

and/or all Pennsics based on the perception of one side or the other

being outnumbered.


I have been the Warlord of the East at Pennsic where the East and its

Allies outnumbered the Middle and its Allies by 300 and won every



I have been the Warlord of the East at Pennsic where the Middle and

its Allies outnumbered the East and its Allies by 350+ and won 3/4 of

the battles.


While numbers obviously matter, the mitigating factors of grand

strategy, strategy, troop and Allied quality, amount of practice,

morale, determination and even luck play a huge part of the overall

results in any given year.


As an Easterner I've grown up with the knowledge that the East did not

win a single one of the first 9 Pennsics.  Thats one heck of a long

streak. But as I and all others have been told, those Easterners who

were around back then did not bemoan their fate, they made a conscious

decision to get better.  This striving for excellence is one that is a

vibrant part of the SCA whether one chooses martial, artistic or

service paths of participation, and it is the reason the East Kingdom

chooses to try and achieve victory at Pennsic.  But never at the cost

of honor and chivalry.


I am not the Easterner Warlord this year, nor do I speak for Their

Majesties, but I can guarantee that there is no way that the East

would wish to go it alone at Pennsic this or any other year.


Why? The East only can field approximately 300 of the 1600 'paper'

heavy weapons fighters at Pennsic this year.   Do the math.


Nor can the Middle go it alone when they field approximately 400 of

the 1600 'paper' fighters at Pennsic.  


This year the Middle Monarchs are doing an exceedingly good job of

gaining Alliances and obtaining the services of Kingdom and

non-Kingdom groups.  Kudos to them!  


So far they have approximately 900+ of the 1600 'paper' heavy weapons

fighters with to my knowledge approximately 300ish 'paper' heavy

weapons fighters of Kingdoms and non-Kingdom groups still being



Frankly, there are always a myriad of circumstances that bring about

the Alliances and obtaining of services of the Kingdoms and

non-Kingdom groups at Pennsic.


To my knowledge the only time in the more 'modern' Pennsics that can

be attributed to a sole factor would be the year of 'Eislin's War' in

which virtually everybody chose to fight for the Middle Queen who was

dying of cancer.


Here is a list of all the Pennsics, some of the Eastern Warlords and

the approximate troop dispartities:


Pennsic I Midrealm


Pennsic II Tie

Pennsic III Midrealm

Pennsic IV Midrealm

Pennsic V Midrealm

Pennsic VI Tie

Pennsic VII Midrealm

Pennsic VIII Tie

Pennsic IX Tie

Pennsic X East

Pennsic XI East

Pennsic XII East

Pennsic XIII Tie

Pennsic XIV Tie

Pennsic XV East

Pennsic XVI Midrealm

Pennsic XVII Midrealm Ogami

Pennsic XVIII East Feral?

Pennsic XIX East Feral?-Middle 200-250 advantage

Pennsic XX Midrealm Feral-relatively even numbers

Pennsic XXI East Ruslan/Magnus--East less than 100 advantage

Pennsic XXII East Ruslan/Feral- East less than 100 advantage

Pennsic XXIII East Ruslan- East 200-300 advantage

Pennsic XXIV East Manfred- East less than 100 advantage

Pennsic XXV Midrealm Eirikr- Middle 200+ advamtage

Pennsic XXVI East Lucan- ?

Pennsic XXVII Midrealm Balfar/Tanaka-?

Pennsic XXVIII East Balfar- Middle 200+ advantage

Pennsic XXIX East Ruslan- Middle 300-350 advantage-would've been less

but there was a last second switch of a large group

Pennsic XXX East Ruslan- Middle 50-100 advantage

Pennsic XXXI East Feral- relatively even

Pennsic XXXII East Feral - East 300 advantage

Pennsic XXXIII East Ruslan- virtually even


This years Pennsic is going to be one heck fight and we of the East

look forward to the challenge.


Earl Master Ruslan Novgorodcev



From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" <sclark55 at rogers dot com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Pennsic, East vs. "Everyone else"?

Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 18:18:48 -0400


> While numbers obviously matter, the mitigating factors of grand

> strategy, strategy, troop and Allied quality, amount of practice,

> morale, determination and even luck play a huge part of the overall

> results in any given year.


Not to mention that there are warpoints determined by things other than mass

heavy weapons battles.  There are the populace and Archer Champions' shoots

(which have largely been dominated by the East in recent years), the various

champions' battles, and the fencing points.


So even if one kingdom hugely outnumbers the other in the mass combat

battles, if that kingdom does well in the non-mass combat points, there is a

chance for victory, depending on how the war points are determined that

particular year.   It's also not pure numbers, even in the mass combat

battles. A kingdom that is outnumbered but possesses a lot of strength in a

particular speciality (e.g. resurrection battles, bridge/pass-type battles,

battles with siege engines or combat archery) can still win a few.


I will say one thing.  I live in an Allied kingdom that has fought with both

the Middle and the East in recent years.  It's a lot less fun to shoot the

populace shoots when the winner of the war has already been determined.

It's a great deal of fun in a close War.





Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 12:04:08 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Honey, I'm Home

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>


Let me remind everyone that PW IV was held in September

that year... lest you think it cannot rain heavily in September.





Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 09:54:12 -0400

From: Gretchen Beck <grm at andrew.cmu.edu>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pennsic Chocolate milk

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>


--On Monday, May 19, 2008 7:32 AM -0400 Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com> wrote:

<<< Rumor over the Middlebridge says that the dairy that

bottled the chocolate milk that was sold by the Coopers at

Pennsic has quit.


Does anyone know the name of the dairy so we can check this out?


Johnnae >>>


Fishers Dairy -- used to be right around the corner from Coopers Lake.

There was a sign on the door at the Cooper's store this weekend saying that the dairy had closed.


toodles, margaret



Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 23:28:05 GMT

From: "morgana.abbey at juno.com" <morgana.abbey at juno.com>

Subject: [Sca-cooks]  Pennsic Chocolate milk

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org


I got back from War Practice Sunday afternoon.


There are 2 dairies supplying Cooper's now: Marlburg and Dean's.  The addresses looked local.  I thought Marlburg was sweeter and Dean's richer.


And, yes, Fisher used whole milk which made for a richer taste compared to most commercial chocolate milks that might use 2 percent, usually less.



Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 10:37:10 -0400 (GMT-04:00)

From: Christiane <christianetrue at earthlink.net>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Recipe for Pennsic "Crack"

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org


Ganked off a Tuchux list, of all things, on Tribe.net:


"For those not on Middlebridge, but addicted to Pennsic chocolate milk classic -- someone offered a recipe they claim tastes like the original:


1 gallon of whole milk. Not 1%, 2% or skim - whole, vitamin D milk.

One pint of heavy whipping cream.

1 heaping teaspoon of malt, as for a malted milk (Not too much -this gives a vague hint of the flavor)

Hershey's DARK syrup, the amount to make 32 8 oz glasses, plus a bit more


Stir like mad"





Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 13:45:08 -0500

From: "Betsy Marshall" <betsy at softwareinnovation.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pennsic Chocolate milk

To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>


<<< So has anyone heard yet from the folks who did get to go to Pennsic  

this year whether the Cooper's found an acceptable replacement for  

our Pennsic 'crack'?


Stefan >>>


They had chocolate milk. It was average store quality chocolate milk- fine

if you wanted some calcium in your kids, but in no way approaching the

levels of yumminess displayed in previous years supplies. Sigh. Another

iconic experience gone forever.



Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 09:23:26 -0700

From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Bathing, was Re:  Spices in meals: a thought

      and a question

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>


<<< I don't know where and when *you're* from, but here in England in

the early 13th century we bathe fairly regularly! With soap! And

sometimes we even have snacks during the bath! Also there is a

reference to a portable or travel bathtub in, IIRC, the household

accounts of Joan de Valence, Countess of Pembroke. So one could

argue bringing a large tub and bathing at Pennsic... >>>


Been done. At Pennsic IV. By Aelfwyne and Arastorm.


David Friedman




Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 05:15:15 -0400

From: "Terri Morgan" <online2much at cox.net>

To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pennsic Busses


Just a (late) point of information. Next year's Pennsic Mayor held a few

informational meetings this last War and in one of them explained that the

busses cost us about $7000 each... which explains why there were only two of

them. He asked for suggestions to ease the transportation problem and is

actively looking for some cost-efficient solutions.


His explanation about the lack of hay wagons made me smile... there is a

decided lack of experienced tractor-drivers who can handle them and the

wagons on those roads. The old ones were just that - getting too old to want

to spend 2 weeks of hot summer driving them!



(The Pennsic 'meter maid' this year)



From: Fernando Vigil <fvigil at AOL.COM>

Date: December 18, 2009 11:06:19 AM CST

To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu

Subject: [CALONTIR] Medieval Moments


Close to three decades ago, I attended the 10th Pennsic War.

Pennsic was a bit different back then. It was essentially a weekend event with all the activities happening on Saturday and Sunday. We fought on the Runstone Hill (though it did not come to be called that until after that year, which is when the rune stone was presented.); the archery field was down by the lake; and we parked on what is now the Sarengetti. But this wasn't just a foreign war - it was THE war.

In any case, I was sick (I found out when I got home that I had mono) and spent my war either wandering in a daze, or in front of a roaring fire wearing every stitch of clothing I had, wrapped in a sleeping bag, and shivering.

On Saturday night however I decided to walk the circuit of the camp just as a fog came down. As I came over Runestone Hill, the fog thickened and the tents (remember this is way before almost anyone had a pavilion) became nothing more than outlines or shadows, with tiny pockets of light from tiki torches.

Eerything came together at that moment.

I remember the smells - bread cooking at the Sated Tiger (the first commercial food enterprise at the war), over the smell of wood smoke.

The sounds - to one side someone was fixing armor and the tink tink tink of the hammer came in. On the other side a group was singing in the distance. And as partway through my walk a bagpipe started playing (the first time I had ever heard on at an event) and the fog and the hills made it difficult to even be sure where it was coming from.

During that moment there was no sign of the modern world. Maybe it was my fever induced stupor. Or maybe it was a teenagers imagination. But it truly felt like I was actually in a medieval city.

I had heard the term medieval moment before, but that was the first time I experienced one.

Despite the misery of being sick, you can bet I did not miss that next Pennsic. Or the one after that, or the, well you get the idea....

So have you experienced a medieval moment?  A point where things seemed to come together for you to generate a moment (or longer) of coolness?



From: Vels inn Viggladi <velsthe1 at HOTMAIL.COM>

Date: July 21, 2010 10:43:43 AM CDT

To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu

Subject: [CALONTIR] New Pennsic Woods Battle


Forwarding along, figure it might be a good idea to be familiar with the general landscape for the new woods battle.



in the area north of block B02 and North-West of the words "Mount  

Eislinn" on the above map.

Follow the road that leads up the west side of Mount Eislinn and it  

will lead right into one res point.

The road West of B03 appears to lead up to the other Res Point.



(begin forward)

> There has been some concern about the 30' ravines in the woods.


> Having been in this woods let me tell you its far worse than that.

> There are very few places where you can see the ground because the

> ferns and foliage is so dense. there are plants up to your shins and

> knees with logs hidden under them just waiting to trip you.

> There is poison ivy mixed in with briar bushes (what a combo)

> There are vision obstructing low hanging tree branches. Places where

> the tree roots come out of the side of the hill over your head.

> Pits of muddy muck that will suck the boots right off of you if it

> rains.

> In short this woods is PRIMATIVE and AWESOME.


> There will be injuries. You may be one of them. Enter at your own risk.


> Now for the good news.

> I saw NO LONG NEEDLE PINES to poke you eyes. This is a far more

> ancient forest and it is filled with broad leaf trees. Not saying you

> wont take a branch in the eye but it least it wont be sap covered

> needle.


> 90% of this woods is flat.


> It is more dense but not as dense as the section of the old woods with

> the fur trees. The broad leaves act as sound dampening. It is unlikely

> you will hear people passing over 20' away. It is unlikely you will

> see people over 40' away.


> There are a few "deer paths" but other than that your top speed is

> probably 1 - 2 miles an hour if you value your ankles and shins.


> There is a road leading to the heart of the woods that I am told the

> Coopers will gravel for ambulance access.


> The ridgelines are excellent for re-orientation and for chirurgeons

> and marshals to coordinate efforts.


> This woods is substantially larger than the old woods.


> ALL OF IT IS KEPT IN PLAY. Yes, you heard me, ridgelines, ravines,

> cliffs, and all.


> The word on the street is that the only limitation to banner movement

> is you cannot run it up a cliff. The phrase that seems to be thrown

> around at this point is you cannot run the banner up a hill higher

> than the banner pole. This decision is up to the Kings and their war

> council. This way no one places the banner half way up a cliff and

> creates a dangerous fighting environment.


> Marshals say they will allow you to traverse the ravines, cliffs,

> hills etc but that they will call dead and send to res anyone who

> fights on a dangerous slope. Ejecting repeat offenders from the battle.


> Although the banners cannot go up the hills the ravines offer great

> opportunities for troop deployment, scouting, and sneak flanking.


> Non-Tactical Photo of the new woods: http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/files/img_0998_559.jpg


> Sir Tristen Sexwulf

> Earl Marshal of Æthelmearc



Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 19:32:51 -0700 (PDT)

From: Stephen Kiefert <lanhamlaw at att.net>

To: atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org

Subject: [MR] daily kingdom history fact 6


The site booklet for Pennsic 15 had 3  8x11 pieces of paper.  This was

sufficient to include the site rules, the schedule of events, the class

schedule, and the campground map, with room left over for some camping tips.  


And they only used one side of the page.    


Stefan of Cambion

Kingdom Historian


<the end>

Formatting copyright © Mark S. Harris (THLord Stefan li Rous).
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