SCA-courts-nc-msg - 5/30/01 Comments and explanations about SCA Courts for newcomers. Behaviour. What to do if called up into court. How they differ from kingdom to kingdom. NOTE: See also the files: courts-msg, 4-newcomers-msg, Getting-an-AoA-art, SCA-intro-art, courtesy-msg, How-to-Behave-art, coronets-msg, SCA-awards-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: moondrgn at bga.com (Chris and Elisabeth Zakes) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: IK Anthropology (was: First time at Court) Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 23:51:18 GMT On Mon, 7 May 2001 11:30:42 -0400, an orbiting mind-control laser caused "Dana Tweedy" to write: >Y2k_knight wrote: >> I am still very new to many of the activities in the SCA. As I do have >> eventual goals, I do not wish my initial impression to be a poor one. >> >> Would someone please tell me what to expect at court (Baronial court)? >> What's it about? What happens? Is it different in other Kingdoms (I'm >> from AnTir)? Is Baronial court different than a Kingdom court? >> >> Richard >> >Hello Richard: > Although I am not familiar with An Tirian courts, This is how Eastern >courts usually run. Just to broaden your perspective, customs *will* differ from kingdom to kingdom. This is generally known as "Interkingdom Anthropology" or "Toto, I don't think we're in Calontir any more." Here's an Ansteorran perspective: >Everyone will be dressed up in their nicest clothing, and be gathered in the >area where the court will take place. "Nicest clothes" are less likely when it's an outdoor camping event. >The court herald will appear, usually >at the back of the room, and announce "All Rise". Everyone stands up. The >court will then process into the room and to the front of the room. I'd guess this sort of procession happens at less than half of the Ansteorran courts. The rest of the time, the Crown will already be seated at the front, probably going over last-minute details with the Herald. >When >the Presiding Noblity (King&Queen, Prince&Princess, Baron&Baroness etc) >passes, eveyone is expected to bow, curtsey, or show respect in some form. If we're having a procession, showing respect as they pass *is* expected. >After the noble procession arrives on the dais, the court herald will begin >the business of the court. He (or she) will call the name of someone to >appear before the court. That person is expected to approach the Nobles, >making sure he is not carrying weapons. This is one area where you may well see a lot of difference in custom. In Ansteorra, people are neither required nor expected to disarm before approaching the Thrones. >When a few steps before the royals, >the gentle bows and kneels in front of the ruling couple. In Ansteorra, there are usually pillows in front of the thrones for people to kneel upon. It's surprising how many people don't seem to underatand that that's what they are there for and will carefully kneel *in front of* the kneeling pillows, rather than on them. >The Nobles may >then say something about the person, and the Court Herald will announce what >award the gentle is getting, and read the award scroll. It's also possible that the person has some business for the court--presentation of a gift or announcement of the winners of the day's competitions. It's also possible that the Crown has called the person forward to thank them for their work on something *without* necessarily giving them an award. >The gentle will >thank the nobles, and then back a few steps away, and return to his or her >seat. The herald will then lead a congratulation to the gentle who was just >awarded. I think that bit is pretty universal. >In the East, the formula is " For Lord (or Lady) ******, Vivat, >Vivat, Vivat" The populace joins in on the "Vivat"s. In Ansteorra, an AoA or similar award will get one "vivat", a Grant of Arms will get two, and a Peerage will get three. >Then the next award >or piece of business is announced by the Herald. That goes on (sometimes ad >infinitum) untill all business is conducted. The herald will then announce >the the court is ended, and the herald will lead the procession out of the >room. Typically here the closing of court will include vivats for the local group and ruling Baron/Baroness, the Crown Prince and Princess (if any) and the King, Queen and Ansteorra. >There is of course more to it, but that's the jist of it. Attend a court or >two, sit in the back and you should be able to get the hang of it. Of course depending on the acoustics, sitting in the back means you may well only hear half of what's going on... > If your >name is called, just walk up, bow, and kneel and let the Herald read the >announcement. Thank the royalty, and return to your seat. Nothing to it. As others have pointed out, you are unlikely to be called up into court at your first event, *unless* it's customary in your kingdom to call all the first-timers up and formally welcome them to the SCA, or unless you've done something exceptional. Most Crowns are used to people being surprised or shy, so if you're a bit tongue-tied they are unlikely to hold it against you. -Tivar Moondragon Ansteorra Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: djheydt at kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) Subject: Re: IK Anthropology (was: First time at Court) Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 00:51:26 GMT Chris and Elisabeth Zakes wrote: >Just to broaden your perspective, customs *will* differ from kingdom >to kingdom. This is generally known as "Interkingdom Anthropology" or >"Toto, I don't think we're in Calontir any more." > >Here's an Ansteorran perspective: [points on which the West is not noticeably different snipped] >>In the East, the formula is " For Lord (or Lady) ******, Vivat, >>Vivat, Vivat" The populace joins in on the "Vivat"s. > >In Ansteorra, an AoA or similar award will get one "vivat", a Grant of >Arms will get two, and a Peerage will get three. In the West the Herald says "Hip, hip!" and the populace answers "Hurrah" or "Huzzah," and this is done thrice no matter who the honored person is. >Typically here the closing of court will include vivats for the local >group and ruling Baron/Baroness, the Crown Prince and Princess (if >any) and the King, Queen and Ansteorra. Closing court gets the following ritual, each line cried by the Herald and repeated by the populace: "Long Live the King!" "Long Live the Queen!" --whether they are present or not. Then "Long live" all the following royalty if they are present, in this order: Any visiting Kings or Queens The Crown Prince and Crown Princess any visiting Princes or Princesses The Prince and Princess of the Mists (these four, you The Prince and Princess of Cynagua see, are always The Prince and Princess of Oertha done in chronological The Prince and Princess of Lochac order.) finishing with "Long Live the Other Princes and Princesses of the West, Hip hip!" "Hurrah!" (repeated twice for a total of three Hurrahs) "You have the King's/Prince's leave to go about your business." Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt Mists/Mists/West Albany, California PRO DEO ET REGE djheydt at kithrup.com http://www.kithrup.com/~djheydt From: scott at math.csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: IK Anthropology (was: First time at Court) Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 01:33:47 GMT On Mon, 07 May 2001 23:51:18 GMT, moondrgn at bga.com (Chris and Elisabeth Zakes) wrote: [...] >Of course depending on the acoustics, sitting in the back means you >may well only hear half of what's going on... That's for outdoor events. If the event is indoors, you'll probably *hear* most everything, but poor projection and lousy acoustics will conspire to make well over half of it incomprehensible. You can't win. [...] Talan From: Ester Mendes Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: IK Anthropology (was: First time at Court) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 11:47:29 -0700 Well, since I'm in An Tir and I'm a court junkie, I'll toss in my observations Most courts begin with the King and Queen processing up to the thrones, followed by their retinue, visiting royalty, etc. The spectators stand as the procession starts, and you should bow as the King and Queen pass by. Once everyone is settled up front, the herald will announce that court has begun, and will then say, "You have Their Majesties' leave to be seated." If there is no procession, the herald will begin court by saying, "Draw nigh for the court of..." The herald will then begin calling people up front for announcements or awards. You never come forward unless you personally, or the group that you are with, are called by the herald (or Their Majesties). If someone has an announcement, the herald will say, "So-and-so has business..." If the herald says, "So-and-so, present yourself before Their Majesties" you know that someone is about to get an award. If you are called forward, you bow or curtsey when you reach the aisle directly in front of Their Majesties. If you have any weapons, you should remove them at this point. If you are female, one of the guards will escort you to the thrones. You bow again when you're a few feet away from the thrones (usually about where the first row of seating is) and Their Majesties will acknowledge you by nodding, smiling, or something similar. If you have an announcement, you ask Their Majesties, "Your Majesties, do I have your leave to address the populace?" They say yes and then you can turn to make your announcement. If you are being given an award, Their Majesties will motion for you to come closer to them. At this point you will notice the really pretty, heavily embroidered pillow that looks like the Royal Footrest. It's not. It's actually there for you to kneel on. :) You then kneel on the pillow and Their Majesties will take your hands while the herald announces what you are being recognized for. If you have any physical problems that make it difficult you you to kneel, please tell Their Majesties when you approach them so that they can accomodate you. When you've been given the award, or you are done with your announcement, you bow to Their Majesties again and back up a little bit. If you're female, a guard will appear to escort you back to your seat. Otherwise, once you've backed up to the point where you made your second bow, you can turn and walk back down the aisle to your seat. Somewhere in here, the herald will say (remember, this is specific to An Tir) "Three cheers for... Hip, hip..." and everyone else will yell "Huzzah" Everyone does this three times, and then they clap as you return to your seat. When everything is done, the herald will say something along the lines of "Thus ends the court of..." As the royalty process out, the herald will call three cheers for Their Majesties and any other visiting royalty. As before, the herald yells, "Hip, hip" and everyone else shouts "Huzzah!" in response. Once everyone has left, the herald will shout, "An Tir." People respond by shouting back either "An Tir" or "We stand together." This is done three times, growing louder each time. After this, the herald says "Peace to Janeltis." (Janeltis died before I started playing in An Tir. She was greatly loved and admired, so much so, that the people of An Tir petitioned the Board of Directors to grant her the special title of Dowager Princess. For more on who she was see: http://antir.sca.org/WhosWho/janeltis.html) The heralds are now starting to say, "Peace to Janeltis and those who have gone before." People will then respond with "Peace to Janeltis" or simply "Peace" in reverant tones. Then the herald annouces that court is over. It is also the custom in An Tir to bow if (a) you pass by someone with a crown (b) someone with a crown walks by you, or (c) you walk in front of the thrones whether anyone is sitting in them or not. I'll mention that the latter is customary, but not required. I personally do not bow to an empty throne for religious reasons (it's too close to bordering on idolatry for my tastes). The social customs that apply to courts with Their Majesties, also apply to Baronial courts. The bowing is the same, the cheers are the same. Some people get flustered when called up front. That's ok and everyone understands. As long as you're polite and reverent, there's never any harm, and no foul. Senhora Ester Mendes (Kirsti Thomas) celyn at drizzle.com From: ruhl at latakia.dyndns.org (Robert A. Uhl) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: IK Anthropology (was: First time at Court) Date: 8 May 2001 18:59:05 GMT Figured I'd add an Outlandish perspective to this discussion. Anyway else from our great kingdom, pls. feel free to correct any mistakes of mine. On Mon, 07 May 2001 23:51:18 GMT, Chris and Elisabeth Zakes wrote: > >Everyone will be dressed up in their nicest clothing, and be gathered in the > >area where the court will take place. > > "Nicest clothes" are less likely when it's an outdoor camping event. Generally here in the Outlands people are wearing whatever garb they were wearing to the event. I have heard folks talk about changing into court clothes a few times, though. I'm working on a set of long garb in keeping with my persona specially for court. Bit of confusion in the references over whether it was universally court wear or only for older folks, though. Fun fun... > >The court herald will appear, usually > >at the back of the room, and announce "All Rise". Everyone stands up. The > >court will then process into the room and to the front of the room. > > I'd guess this sort of procession happens at less than half of the > Ansteorran courts. The rest of the time, the Crown will already be > seated at the front, probably going over last-minute details with the > Herald. All the courts, Kingdom and Barony, that I've been to have featured the ruler alrady in place. Daresay that at some of the more important courts there's a procession, though. > This is one area where you may well see a lot of difference > in custom. In Ansteorra, people are neither required nor expected to > disarm before approaching the Thrones. I've heard different things around here. I've not disarmed the few times I have been called up and was armed--no-one's said anything (slight a guarantee of correctness as it is). > It's also possible that the person has some business for the > court--presentation of a gift or announcement of the winners of the > day's competitions. It's also possible that the Crown has called the > person forward to thank them for their work on something *without* > necessarily giving them an award. Round here the _general_ process seems to be that the ruler awards what he will, then business is carried out, then closing. But that's a pretty loose guide. > >In the East, the formula is " For Lord (or Lady) ******, Vivat, > >Vivat, Vivat" The populace joins in on the "Vivat"s. > > In Ansteorra, an AoA or similar award will get one "vivat", a Grant of > Arms will get two, and a Peerage will get three. Ours tend to be three rounds of huzzahs. But then, around here huzzah tends to be used a lot, almost to the point of silliness. But it's fun:-) > Typically here the closing of court will include vivats for the local > group and ruling Baron/Baroness, the Crown Prince and Princess (if > any) and the King, Queen and Ansteorra. We tend to do CP&P, K&Q with huzzahs, then the Outlands with a great bellow of `Outlands!' -- Robert Uhl From: moondrgn at bga.com (Chris and Elisabeth Zakes) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: IK Anthropology (was: First time at Court) Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 21:09:44 GMT On Tue, 08 May 2001 01:33:47 GMT, an orbiting mind-control laser caused scott at math.csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott) to write: >On Mon, 07 May 2001 23:51:18 GMT, moondrgn at bga.com (Chris and >Elisabeth Zakes) wrote: > >[...] > >>Of course depending on the acoustics, sitting in the back means you >>may well only hear half of what's going on... > >That's for outdoor events. If the event is indoors, you'll probably >*hear* most everything, but poor projection and lousy acoustics will >conspire to make well over half of it incomprehensible. You can't >win. Sure you can. Get there a bit early and sit up front. This isn't like school; the King isn't going to ask you questions about chapter fourteen, which you neglected to read last night, after all. It's fairly common here for the heralds to call everyone to draw nigh for court, and then for the Crown to ask folks to draw a little "nigh-er" so they don't have to shout. -Tivar Moondragon Ansteorra From: moondrgn at bga.com (Chris and Elisabeth Zakes) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: IK Anthropology (was: First time at Court) Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 21:52:29 GMT On 8 May 2001 18:59:05 GMT, an orbiting mind-control laser caused ruhl at latakia.dyndns.org (Robert A. Uhl) to write: >Figured I'd add an Outlandish perspective to this discussion. Anyway >else from our great kingdom, pls. feel free to correct any mistakes of >mine. (snip) >> It's also possible that the person has some business for the >> court--presentation of a gift or announcement of the winners of the >> day's competitions. It's also possible that the Crown has called the >> person forward to thank them for their work on something *without* >> necessarily giving them an award. > >Round here the _general_ process seems to be that the ruler awards >what he will, then business is carried out, then closing. But that's >a pretty loose guide. Interesting. Here it tends to be just the opposite. "Business" gets done first. then awards (starting with the lowest-ranking ones and working up to Grants and Peerages, if any, then closing.) -Tivar Moondragon Ansteorra From: Ester Mendes Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: IK Anthropology (was: First time at Court) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 15:45:30 -0700 Tivar wrote: > Interesting. Here it tends to be just the opposite. "Business" gets > done first. then awards (starting with the lowest-ranking ones and > working up to Grants and Peerages, if any, then closing.) In An Tir, the heralds try to mix things up so that business and awards are scattered throughout court. During major crown events, where courts can last for 3 hours, it's common for the only awards given out to be peerages, or the highest level awards for archery and fencing. Senhora Ester Mendes (Kirsti Thomas) celyn at drizzle.com Edited by Mark S. Harris SCA-courts-nc-msg Page 9 of 9