torches-msg - 8/9/09 Medieval torches. NOTE: See also the files: Rushlights-art, candles-msg, candlesticks-msg, firestarting-msg, flt-wick-lmps-art, lamps-msg, lighting-msg, Med-Lighting-lnks, Med-Lighting-art. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: bear at thebox (Walt Wilson) Date: 5 Apr 91 21:12:33 GMT 00mjstum at bsu-ucs.uucp (Matthew J. Stum) writes: > Portable outdoor lighting is the subject... > > What was the "medieval" equivelent to a flashlight? Were torches used? > If so, does anyone have any good "recipes" for making long-lasting > (dripless) torches? > -- > . / | Matt Stum > . . / | 00MJSTUM at BSUVAX1.BITNET > |/-\/-\ |/-\ |/-\ / |/-\ |/-\/-\ | 00MJSTUM at bsu-ucs.bsu.edu > | / / | / | / \__/ | / | / / | > | | | | Ball State University, Muncie IN USA > | | |/\/ | VAX Systems Programmer A spanking good pitch torch, I would imagine, or if inside, a large-wick candle in a polished semi-protective holder. The torch might make you very unpopular and the candle has a nasty habit of dribbling hot wax. This is one of the places where anachronism can be invoked for safety. Use the flashlight or (with a grin) place a LUME STICK in your candle holder. Bjorn Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 17:46:23 -0400 From: Christine A Seelye-King Subject: Re: SC - illusion food - cattails Well, since we've been all around cattails (these are New World, right?), I thought I would post a piece from a discusison from the Tavern Yard. Not food, but, interesting information. Christianna I make a cattail candle that I use for a tiki torch. Leave the stem a little long, and drive a pipe in the ground (paint the pipe and decorate it the way you want). Light the cattail, drop it in the pipe. When it burns down to the pipe, the fire goes out and the stem drops down the pipe (easy clean up). No messy oil to spill, just add another lighted cat tail to the pipe, they will burn a long time according to how you make them. Also, they can be a bug repellent depending on how you make them. First, you have to find some cattails. You want to harvest them just before they go to seed, if you cut them before then they are to dense to absorb wax. (Make sure to cut the stem at least a foot long). In a large pot, melt your paraffin (I like using a paraffin and bees wax). Once the paraffin is melted you can add your citronella if you want. Put the cat tail in the pot of wax until you see it stop bubbling. Then remove it and put it on newspaper head down. I like to press a short wick on the head at this time to help in the lighting or they are a little hard to light. At this time I will also roll them in sage, or a pennyroyal mix, or a rosemary mix. Any of these will make a bug repellent but be careful with the pennyroyal. Once they are cool, just keep dipping till you get them as thick as you want them. The thicker the wax, the longer they will burn, (you will need to pull the wick up and out of the wax- I use a long nail). When you get them where you want them, roll them in the sage or rosemary again. Let cool and put them up for the next event. You can get a tube of brass or aluminum. Cut the end at a 45 degree angle. This is the end you put in the ground. The flat end is where you slide the stem when you want to light one. When the cat tail burns down the stem will fall down the tube and go out, the wax burns up along with the cattail. No muss no fuss. BLOODSONG Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 18:01:22 -0700 (PDT) From: H B To: Aethelmearc list , sca-arts list Subject: Nifty Torches at Sam's Club I was just up at our local Sam's Club, and on display right as you walk in was a pair (!) of Antique-Copper-Finish (on brass) oil-burning torches, one 52" high, one 62" high, torch sort of a hemispherical resevoir with a very shallow conical top to hold wick; shaft was twisted square stock; base was a flat weighted circle, not a spike, so suitable for floor or patio, didn't look to see if it could be converted to a spike for outdoors. Price was $69.98 (I think). Not like anything I've seen elsewhere, and immediately thought some of you would be as interested as I was (and maybe some of you can afford them!). I hope I remembered all this correctly. And sorry if you think this is too far off topic, but I really liked them, and would be interested if anyone else who has seen them would know if they are anywhere near period in design, or just sort of medieval-ish-looking. And would copper have been used in period for something like this? I would have perferred a brass or oxidized finish, myself. -- Harriet From: "Red Dog" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period torches Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 09:31:50 -0400 Try this link. there are some plans for various period lighting fixtures. You'll need "Acrobat Reader" to use the plans. http://www.teleport.com/~tguptill/toc.htm Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 12:53:15 -0400 From: dwilson at nbnet.nb.ca (dwilson) To: Subject: Taper`s http://members.xoom.com/wendysweb/cattail.jpg This is a cattail swamp out back. Are these the same plants that in Europe they made tapers out of? A taper being plant materal (In side pith? ) soaked in cooking grease. Dryed then put in a taper holder. Lite like a candle? Sheepstealer Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 11:29:29 -0600 From: Sue.Rogers at fritolay.com To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Taper`s One of the plants that was used sometimes to make tapers was mullein (Verbascum thapsus), which was sometimes known as "hags tapers" (also sometimes known as "rabbit tobacco" in Arkansas). Mullein grows in dry, sometimes rocky, areas (Ozark mountains in Arkansas for one example). It has large, fuzzy leaves growing in a basal rosette (low to the ground in a circle, kind of like dandelion grows). It is a biennial, which means it flowers in the second year of growth, then dies. The bloom stalk is several feet tall (3 - 5) and about 1 - 2 inches in diameter. The stalk is sturdy and fiberous, and may have small leaves growing close to the stem, as well as small yellow flowers growing up the stem. Apparently this can be soaked in grease of some kind, and lighted for a torch or taper. Your description of the process sounds about right, except I was not sure if it was dried after soaking in the grease, or if it was used while greasy (i.e., the stalk acts like the wick to a tallow lamp, more or less). My understanding is that it is very smoky, and not too bright, and does not last a long time, but I have not tried it to see. (I find mullein more valuable for coughs, so that is what I use it for.) I do not have internet access, so can't see your picture of cattails, but cattails are pretty distinctive, so you should be able to identify them easily. I think the European cattail is similar to the American one, but I have not looked it up. Since cattails have similar properties to the mullein stalk described above (large diameter, sturdy, fiberous), I would think they would work the same way. Are you going to try some and see how they work? If you do, please let us know how they work. I think they work better before the stalks go to fuzz, so it may be kind of late in the year to collect them right now, depending on the climate where you are. Suzanna, the herbalist, Barony of the Steppes, Kingdom of Ansteorra (Dallas, TX USA) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 17:13:47 -0000 From: "Melanie Wilson" To: Subject: Re: rush lights >Rushes, juncus effusus Soft Rushes, and yet well into the 19th C this was used to make rush lights . Peel and soak in fat, then burn. Here is how to prepare them from Revd Gilbert White ' The rushes are in best condition in the height of summer; but they may be gathered, so as to serve the purpose well, quite on to auterm. It would be needless to add that the largest and longest are best. Decayed labourers, women and children, make it their business to procure and prepare them. As soon as they are cut they must be flung into water, and kept there, for otherwise they will dry and shrink, and the peel will not run.. At first a person would find it no easy matter to divest a rush of its peel or rind, so as to leave one regular, even rib from top to bottom thay may support the pitch: but this, like other feats, soon becomes familiar even to children; and we have seen an old woman, stone blind, performing this buisiness with great dispatch, and seldom failing to strip them with nicest regularity. When the junci are thus prepared they must lie out on the grass to be bleched, and take the dew for some nights, and afterwards be dried in the sun. Some address is required in dipping these rushes in the scalding fat or grease; but this knack also is to be attained by practice. The careful wife of an industrious Hampshire labourer obtains all her fat for nothing; for she saves the scummings of her bacon pot for this use and if the grease abounds with salt, she causes the salt to precipitate to the bottom, by setting the scrummings in a warm oven.....A pound of common grease may be procured for 4 pence; and about 6 pounds of grease will dip a pound of rushes.... If men that keep bees will mix a little wax with the grease, it will give it a consistancy, and render it more cleanly, and make the rushes burn longer: mutton suet would have the same effect. A good rush, which measured in length 2 feet 4 inches and a half, being minuted, burnt only 3 minutes short of an hour; and a rush still of greater length has been known to burn one hour and a quarter. These rushes give good clear light...." They are safer than tallow candles, have a clear smokeless(almost) flame. Mel Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 23:00:01 -0000 From: "Melanie Wilson" To: "LIST Sca Arts" Subject: Re: rush lights >A cat tail in the fall looks like a 6 inch black turd on a 4 ft high tan >stick. :-) No this is more like Reedmace I think(often called bulrush due to a Victorian artists error) . Soft rush is up to 3ft high, thin, glossy green stems, yellowish flowers. Does this black turd expolde into white stuff (used to be used to stuff matresses)? and when black is it very velvety ? Reedmace is also called cat's tail (Typha latifolia) so I think this must be it ? Real bulrush (not reedmace) was used for the floors. Mel From: "celia" Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval Subject: Re: Medieval Torch Questions Date: 27 Jun 2006 13:22:11 -0700 lopemanc at swbell.net wrote: > Sorry if this is a little out of place, but this group appeared to be > more on target than any other. I have already found old posts in this > group concerning the construction of medieval torches that have helped. > But I have a couple of questions left. > > For the most part construction of a torch as describe appears to be a > branch or binding of twigs. Often with a specially treated tip or > material that is treated and tied to the tip. > > I did not see anything specific about the age of the wood. If the > shaft of the torch was just dried pine, I would expect the flame to > burn down the shaft relatively quickly. Is the shaft a green wood? Or > is it treated in some other what to keep it from catching fire? Or is > there a different answer? > > Also, How long could one of these Pine Resin torches burn for? > Dried Great Mullien dipped in tallow. I think I mentioned it in the Anglo Saxon Plant Name Survey in this group a couple of months back. There might be more information there. Celia From: "bill" Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval Subject: Re: Medieval Torch Questions Date: 28 Jun 2006 03:13:38 -0700 wasn't pitch also used? here in italy one can still see iron baskets in some towns - perched on the corners of some buildings. i have no idea what was put in them or how long they were expected to illuminate the street below. - bill celia ha scritto: > lopemanc at swbell.net wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > Sorry if this is a little out of place, but this group appeared to be > > more on target than any other. I have already found old posts in this > > group concerning the construction of medieval torches that have helped. > > But I have a couple of questions left. > > > > For the most part construction of a torch as describe appears to be a > > branch or binding of twigs. Often with a specially treated tip or > > material that is treated and tied to the tip. > > > > I did not see anything specific about the age of the wood. If the > > shaft of the torch was just dried pine, I would expect the flame to > > burn down the shaft relatively quickly. Is the shaft a green wood? Or > > is it treated in some other what to keep it from catching fire? Or is > > there a different answer? > > > > Also, How long could one of these Pine Resin torches burn for? > > > Dried Great Mullien dipped in tallow. > I think I mentioned it in the Anglo Saxon Plant Name Survey > in this group a couple of months back. > There might be more information there. > > Celia From: "celia" Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval Subject: Re: Medieval Torch Questions Date: 28 Jun 2006 04:35:26 -0700 bill wrote: > wasn't pitch also used? > > here in italy one can still see iron baskets in some towns - perched on > the corners of some buildings. i have no idea what was put in them or > how long they were expected to illuminate the street below. > > - bill I suspect that pitch is what was meant by 'resin' William is right though, resin is a very useful commodity. Celia From: "William Black" Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval Subject: Re: Medieval Torch Questions Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 19:26:08 +0100 wrote: > While this is good information and quite interesting, I believe my > questions still remain unanswered. Unless Dried Great Mullein simply > does not burn. > > What keeps the shaft from burning down to the carrier's hand? One assumes a metal cup of some sort. The type usually reproduced in castles in the UK have a sort of miniature metal cage on the end for the flammable material. I assume someone has actually lit these and made them work as English Heritage have a reputation for getting this sort of thing right.. Most re-enactment societies use a length of wood as a handle, fasten an old baked bean tin on the end, insert a toilet roll and soak that with white spirit. This will burn for two or three hours... -- William Black From: jacklinthicum at earthlink.net Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval Subject: Re: Medieval Torch Questions Date: 29 Jun 2006 11:50:48 -0700 William Black wrote: > One assumes a metal cup of some sort. > > The type usually reproduced in castles in the UK have a sort of miniature > metal cage on the end for the flammable material. I assume someone has > actually lit these and made them work as English Heritage have a reputation > for getting this sort of thing right.. > > Most re-enactment societies use a length of wood as a handle, fasten an old > baked bean tin on the end, insert a toilet roll and soak that with white > spirit. > > This will burn for two or three hours... > > -- > William Black http://www.markland.org/lettherebelight.php In the popular mind, the torch is the preferred form of lighting during the Middle Ages. Unfortunately this is probably far from the truth. One of the biggest problems in describing a medieval torch is that none have appeared to have survived. The few descriptions of torches that Robins discusses are either early Creek or from the 18th and early 19th century. But given the conservative nature of folk technology, these examples probably give a rather good example of what was possible in the Middle Ages. Creek torches were bundles of sticks, indubitably of a highly resinous wood. In one account from a medieval English churchwarden's account describes "A torch of rosin weighing 11 lbs.". Torches of this period are thought to be twisted wax or a course candle made of mixture of resin and wax. The earliest depiction I have found of a torch comes from a bas-relief on the tomb of Pierre de Gougis (1440) in Paris. Identical torches are drawn in King Rene of Anjou's Livre des Tournois, 1460-65. This depiction appears to be of several long candles grouped around a central wooden shaft (Fig. 2). [Illustration shows the body of the torch as long as the man carrying it] A similar depiction occurs in a Flemish book from 1515. Every day torches are thought to been made of resinous wood. In Italy until this century, torches were fabricated from saplings that were beaten into fibrous state and then impregnated with fat. In the 18th century Scotland, men would stand behind seated guests and hold a burning splinter of bog pine that naturally has a high concentration of turpentine. An English recipe for a torch from 1935 consists of rope treated with Stockholm tar, though resin, tal low, and beeswax, alone or mixed could also be used. It is quite apparent that torches could be made in a variety of ways by using what was locally available. In England and Northern France, there was little in the way of resinous woods that were available in Scotland, Ireland, Germany, and the Mediterranean. Bass fiber rope would have been used in Europe until the introduction of hemp rope during the 13th century. I believe that a torch could easily been made by tying some complex knot like a turks head on top of a wood handle and then impregnate it tallow, resin, or wax. Two of the earliest, most common, and longest used forms of lighting devices in Europe were the splinter and rush light. Used into the early part of this century in rural areas, these contrivances were the common man's candle. The splinter was a thin piece of resinous wood, that could be coated with tallow, that was held between two rocks, wedged into a crux of a stick or metal spines, or held in a simple metal clamp (Fig. 3a & b) so that the burning end pointed down at an angle. A metal plate was often placed under the splinter so as to reduce the chance of fire. Splinters were in common use in Eastern Europe, Scotland, Scandinavia, and the Mediterranean. England, lacking resinous trees, developed the rushlight. Here a common soft rush is cut, soaked, stripped, dried, and then dipped in fat or grease and then dried again. As with splinters, the rush light was usually held in a small clamp or split device (Fig. 3c & d ) but unlike splinters the rushlight was held at an upward angle and lit at the top end. Some rushlight holders are multipurpose having a candleholder attached to the arm of the clamp, To give an example of the rushlight's capability a rush two and a quarter long would burn for fifty-seven minutes. The splinter and rushlight were easy to produce which indubitably led to wide spread use among the common folk of Europe. From: "bill" Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval Subject: Re: Medieval Torch Questions Date: 29 Jun 2006 09:55:30 -0700 chris - you might have already seen this but i think this will explain all: http://www.markland.org/lettherebelight.php in the same way that wicks burn slowly while the oil they contain burns fast, a stick or bundle of sticks, impregnated with a combustible substance will not be consumed as quickly as the substance on or in it. sounds like an excellent opportunity for some CAREFUL! experimentation ... regards - bill From: "Uwe M¸ller" Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval Subject: Re: Medieval Torch Questions Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 20:37:40 +0200 "celia" schrieb: > Thanks, that's useful. > The information in the thread 'Peasant Craftsmen in the > Medieval Forest' about charcoal burning and the suitability > of various woods for fine metal working came mainly > from my brother who worked as a charcoal burner for > several years. > > Celia Back to the original question. By chance I found something on Germanic torches. In germanic cremation burials (pre migration age, off topic?) little pieces of what was called resin were found. Analysis showed them to be made of birch tar and wax and many pieces included pieces or impressions of rough cloth. These pieces are interpreted as pieces of torches made by wrapping a stick or branch with strips of cloth saturated with this tar/wax mixture. The torches would have been used while sorting bones and bits out of the ashes of the funeral pyre or while putting the urn in the ground. Uwe Mueller Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 14:56:45 -0400 From: "Sharon Gordon" Subject: [Sca-cooks] Viking Dining Light To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" As a series of facts in a book about Vikings the author notes that Vikings lit their homes with torches of bundles of marsh grass called lyssiv (light straw). It has a central core of wicklike white pith. Does anyone know if this was from an edible grain such as barley or flax? I'd also be interested in whether the pith was used like a wick in oil or fat or whether it was used to soak up oil in a more sponge like way and then lit if anyone is familiar with this. Sharon Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 15:01:55 -0400 From: Gretchen Beck Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Viking Dining Light To: Cooks within the SCA --On Wednesday, April 01, 2009 2:56 PM -0400 Sharon Gordon wrote: << Does anyone know if this was from an edible grain such as barley or flax? I'd also be interested in whether the pith was used like a wick in oil or fat or whether it was used to soak up oil in a more sponge like way and then lit if anyone is familiar with this. >> According to www.rolv.no/urtemedisin/medisinplanter/junc_eff.htm, the plant modernly known as lyssiv is a species of reed or rush. The translation of the page notes: LYSSIV Juncus effusus Juncus effusus ANDRE NORSKE NAVN NORSKE OTHER NAME Rundsev, rundstorr, veikjegras, ljossev. Rundsev, around major, veikjegras, ljossev. VITENSKAPELIG NAVN / SYNONYMER VITENSKAPENS NAME / SYNONYMS Juncus effusus L. Juncus effusus L. NAVN P? ANDRE SPR?K NAME OF OTHER LANGUAGES SVENSK: Veket?g. SWEDISH: Veket?g. DANSK : Lyse-Siv. DANISH: Lyse-Siv. ISLANDSK: ICELANDIC: FINSK: Finnish: R?yhyvihvil?. R?yhyvihvil?. ENGELSK : Soft rush, Rush, Bog rush , Common rush, Rush pith, Juncus. ENGLISH: Soft rush, Rush, Bog rush, common rush, Rush pith, Juncus. TYSK : Flatterige Binse, Flatter-Binse, Lockebl?tige Binse. GERMAN: Flatterige bins, flat-bins, Lockebl?tige bins. FRANSK: Jonc ? lier, Jonc ?pars. FRENCH: jonc ? lier, jonc EPAR. SPANSK: Junco de esteras, junquera. SPANISH: Junco de ester, junquera. KINESISK: Deng Xin Cao. CHINESE: Deng Xin Cao. FAMILIE FAMILY Sivfamilien (Juncaceae). Sivfamilien (Juncaceae). Foto ?: Rolv Hjelmstad Photo ?: Rolv Hjelmstad -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BOTANISK BESKRIVELSE BOTANICAL DESCRIPTION Et fler?rig siv med 40-120 cm h?ye, friskt gr?nne str? som sitter i store, tette tuer. Slirene m?rkebrune eller svartr?de. A perennial reed with 40-120 cm high, fresh green straw that is in large, dense hikes. Sheath dark brown or black red. Str?ene er glatte, med 40-70 langsg?ende striper. Str?ene is smooth, with 40-70 longitudinal stripes. Blomsterstanden er oftest et ?pent knippe med blekt brune blomster, 1? ? 3 mm lange. Flowers stand is usually an open knippe with pale brown flowers, 1 ? - 3 mm long. Vokser p? fuktig beitemark, i eng og gr?fter. Grows in damp pastures, in eng and ditches. Planten er ikke kalkkrevende. The plant is not lime-consuming. and REVIEWS Bruk av lyssiv i Norge Use of lyssiv in Norway I Norge finnes det en annen sivart, knappsiv ( Juncus conglomeratus ), som er temmelig lik lyssiv, og folk flest har neppe skilt mellom disse to artene. In Norway, there is another sivart, knappsiv (Juncus conglomeratus), which is fairly similar lyssiv, and most people have hardly separated between these two species. Det sikreste kjennetegnet for ? skille lyssiv og knappsiv er str?ets farge, som hos lyssiv er friskt gr?nt, mens knappsiv er mer matt gr?gr?nt. The safest characterized to distinguish lyssiv and knappsiv is straw color, which at lyssiv is fresh green, while knappsiv is more matt gr?gr?nt. Knappsivstr?ene er dessuten mer ru enn str?ene til lyssiv. Knappsivstr?ene is also more than ru str?ene to lyssiv. Inne i det runde str?et hos begge artene finnes et svampaktig vev som kan frigj?res og anvendes. Inside the round straw of both species is a sponge-like tissue that can be released and applied. Man ?pner str?et nederst med naglen og skyver margen ut. Monday open straw bottom of the nail and push the margin out. Den hvite, svampaktige "tr?den" man da f?r ut ble i eldre tider brukt som veke i tranlamper. The white, sponge-like "thread" but then get out was in older times used as a wick in transnational lamps. Det het seg at man m?tte ta ut denne margen p? voksende m?ne, da var den fastere og tykkere enn ellers. The het up that you had to take out the margin on the growing moon, when was the firmer and thicker than elsewhere. toodles, margaret Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 14:32:17 -0500 (CDT) From: "Pixel, Goddess and Queen" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Viking Dining Light To: Cooks within the SCA On Wed, 1 Apr 2009, Sharon Gordon wrote: <<< As a series of facts in a book about Vikings the author notes that Vikings lit their homes with torches of bundles of marsh grass called lyssiv (light straw). It has a central core of wicklike white pith. Does anyone know if this was from an edible grain such as barley or flax? I'd also be interested in whether the pith was used like a wick in oil or fat or whether it was used to soak up oil in a more sponge like way and then lit if anyone is familiar with this. Sharon >>> It would have been used for fats that are less solid than say, beeswax, or liquid oils. Look up "rushlight" for an idea of what they're talking about, and also "cresset" which is an oil lamp made of soapstone or other material. Rushlights are also period for much of Europe--there's a wrought-iron rushlight holder in the Medieval Household book from the Museum of London that looks for all the world like the rushlight holders that were used in colonial times in the US. Margaret FitzWilliam Edited by Mark S. Harris torches-msg Page 12 of 12