candlesticks-msg - 9/25/01 Medieval candlesticks. Candlesticks for modern re-creation. NOTE: See also the files: candles-msg, lamps-msg, lighting-msg, bees-msg, metalworking-msg, metals-msg, p-kitchens-msg, p-tableware-msg, feastgear-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: vidumavi at swipnet.se (Ninni M Pettersson) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Candlesticks? Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 20:57:44 +0100 Greetings good gentles! The recent thread about candles made me start thinking about candlesticks. In what did they stick these candles they made? Having looked through my (admittedly far from extensive) library I've been surprised by the scarcity of candlesticks! So far I've found 1 example from the 12th century - two rather large ones, on an altar, perhaps made of clay. And 2 examples from the 13th century - two thin ones with three feet, on an altar, apparently made from some kind of metal, and two very large ones, carried in a religious procession, of unknown material. I've found no examples at all from the 14th century. In the 15th century candlesticks seems to have spread beyond the church and reached the ordinary home. So far I've found 2 examples of candlesticks, all made from some yellow metal and all used when reading (Annunciation-scenes both of them). I've also found 3 examples of bracket candlesticks (but two of them are by the same artist (Campin) and look very much alike) all of them mounted above a fire-place. Lastly I've found a chandelier (the one on Van Eyck's Arnolfini-picture). I'm wondering if this dearth of candlesticks is just an illusion due to my small library, or a mirror of reality. Were candlesticks limited to the church before the 15th century? Were candlesticks only used for reading and for general illumination and never placed on a table at a feast? Can anyone answer these vexing questions, or at least direct me to a good source to look for answers in? Gratefully yours, Adeliz Holmrike, Nordmark, Drachenwald -- Ninni M Pettersson vidumavi at swipnet.se From: shermand at mindspring.com (Dennis R. Sherman) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Candlesticks? Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 00:22:54 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises vidumavi at swipnet.se (Ninni M Pettersson) wrote: >The recent thread about candles made me start thinking about >candlesticks. In what did they stick these candles they made? >[...] >I'm wondering if this dearth of candlesticks is just an illusion due to >my small library, or a mirror of reality. Were candlesticks limited to >the church before the 15th century? Were candlesticks only used for >reading and for general illumination and never placed on a table at a >feast? >Can anyone answer these vexing questions, or at least direct me to a >good source to look for answers in? Its a figment of the scarcity of the data available to you. There were lots of candlesticks in private homes, of many different forms, and many different materials during the period of interest to the SCA. I haven't got time to dig out all my research notes at the moment, but I direct you toward the Compleat Anachronist issue about domestic lighting, which covers lamps, lanterns, candles, candlesticks, and the like. Someday maybe I'll find time to get it (and additional research) up on the web, but until then getting it from the stock clerk is your best bet. There's a large bibliography, so you can continue researching as interests you. Robyyan Torr d'Elandris Dennis R. Sherman Kapellenberg, Windmaster's Hill, Atlantia Chapel Hill, NC robyyan at mindspring.com dennis.sherman at mindspring.com http://www.unc.edu/~sherman/robyyan.html http://www.unc.edu/~sherman/ From: Elaine Ragland Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Candlesticks? Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 18:00:10 -0500 Organization: Columbia University On Sun, 2 Feb 1997, Ninni M Pettersson wrote: > The recent thread about candles made me start thinking about > candlesticks. In what did they stick these candles they made? > > Having looked through my (admittedly far from extensive) library I've > been surprised by the scarcity of candlesticks! There's a folding set of candle holders shown in _The Secular Spirit_, a catalogue of an exhibit at the Metropolitan Museum. I think that they're 12th century. Essentially, they're iron spikes, attached to a two metal legs. The metal legs are attached to two more metal legs, by means of a hinge. Open, the candle holder stands on three legs (one leg is actually two legs hinged together). I can't draw a picture of it, but I recommend getting the catalogue via interlibrary loan. I think this is a case of common objects getting used to death. Unless they're made of gold (ie. the ones in churches), they're not stored in treasuries, and they're used until they break. Elaine Ragland aka Melanie de la Tour From: powers at colon.cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Candlesticks? Date: 3 Feb 1997 21:08:37 -0500 Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science > Having looked through my (admittedly far from extensive) library I've > been surprised by the scarcity of candlesticks! May I commend to your attention: "Iron and Brass Implements of the English House" by J. Seymour Lindsay Theophilus mentions candlesticks several times in Divers Arts--including how to make rock crystal knobs for them. wilelm the smith From: Tim Beck Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Candlesticks? Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 08:05:58 GMT > Having looked through my (admittedly far from extensive) library I've > been surprised by the scarcity of candlesticks! The Museum of London catalogue of 1940 has about ten pictures of candle sticks. All sorts of cool ones. Also Jan van Eyck 1434 has that cool chandalier hanging in "The marriage of Giovanni Arnolfini and Jeanne Cenami". The documentation is there it's just one of those things that seems to get overlooked a lot...not a ton of appeal for the non-recreation crowd. Timothy From: Andrew Tye Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Candlesticks? Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 15:15:15 -0800 Organization: Oregon Public Networking On Sun, 2 Feb 1997, Ninni M Pettersson wrote: > The recent thread about candles made me start thinking about > candlesticks. In what did they stick these candles they made? > > Having looked through my (admittedly far from extensive) library I've > been surprised by the scarcity of candlesticks! > > So far I've found 1 example from the 12th century - two rather large > ones, on an altar, perhaps made of clay. And 2 examples from the 13th > century - two thin ones with three feet, on an altar, apparently made > from some kind of metal, and two very large ones, carried in a religious > procession, of unknown material. > I've found no examples at all from the 14th century. > > In the 15th century candlesticks seems to have spread beyond the church > and reached the ordinary home. So far I've found 2 examples of > candlesticks, all made from some yellow metal and all used when reading > (Annunciation-scenes both of them). I've also found 3 examples of > bracket candlesticks (but two of them are by the same artist (Campin) > and look very much alike) all of them mounted above a fire-place. Lastly > I've found a chandelier (the one on Van Eyck's Arnolfini-picture). > > I'm wondering if this dearth of candlesticks is just an illusion due to > my small library, or a mirror of reality. Were candlesticks limited to > the church before the 15th century? Were candlesticks only used for > reading and for general illumination and never placed on a table at a > feast? > Can anyone answer these vexing questions, or at least direct me to a > good source to look for answers in? Ivar here, A few years back when my winter project was researching and making period lighting for tourney and feast, I stumbled on a resource area that had a wealth of information on this exact topic. Here in the U.S. there are many people who collect all manner of artifacts of our relatively recent colonial past. Some of these collectors are very specialized. One of these specialized fields is the collection of lamps, lanterns, candlesticks, and all manner of impedimenta relating to lighting. I found several publications in our local city library on just this topic. Most have some form of history of lighting going back to the Ancient World. (Egypt, Mesopotamia). In one particular publication however, I struck gold. (well, brass actually). The publication is a magazine format compilation of articles entitled: Lighting In America. Edited by Lawrence S. Cooke. Published by The Main Street Press, Pittstown, New Jersey. Within it are two articles by John Kirk Richardson. One is entitled: Brass Candlesticks. (This is overvue history of the topic.) The other is: Brass Household Candlesticks Of The Gothic Period. This article covers the period 1200-1500. The seven pages of these two articles have 30 photographs of existing candlesticks (with references to the collections that they are in.) Most of the candlesticks are pre-1400. It is enough to add brass casting and turning to the skills I wish to learn. I hope this helps. Ivar Hakonarson. Adiantum, An Tir. From: afn03234 at freenet2.afn.org (Ronald L. Charlotte) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Candlesticks? Date: 6 Feb 1997 06:36:51 GMT In <19970202205744315537 at dialup69-6-13.swipnet.se>, vidumavi at swipnet.se (Ninni M Pettersson) wrote: > The recent thread about candles made me start thinking about > candlesticks. In what did they stick these candles they made? There seems to have been two common types, the "pricket" type where the candle is impaled on a spike that emerged from a shallow pan, or a set of arms to support the weight of the candle; and the "socket" type where the candle sets into a cup. The first style seems to be primarily for the larger pillar candles, the second was for tapers. One of the more clever innovations in the socket design, was openings on the sides of the socket, at the bottom, to make removing the candle stub easier. The best book having a large number of extant and remmnant examples of medieval and renaissance candlesticks is _Medieval Objects in the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston: Metalwork_ by Nancy Netzer (ISBN 0 87846 327 5). al Thaalibi ---- An Crosaire, Trimaris Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL afn03234 at afn.org From: Andrew Tye Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Lamps, Holders etc. Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 10:32:59 -0800 Organization: Oregon Public Networking On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Elspeth wrote: > Does anybody out there have some 'preferred' or plain ol faithful, > candle holders, or lamps they use for events? I know how popular > Tikit Torches have become, but what kind of preferences do people have > for table light sources? Any truely Period things one could use? I > have yet to start looking at paintings to get a glimps of what was > used. Ivar here, Aside from the good advice that Aleksandr gave you about museums and art books, I would also recommend you to books and periodicals on Colonial America and collecting its artifacts. A few years back when I was researching period lighting I stumbled upon a rich vein of information on just this topic. You see, people who collect antiques like to know the history of their subject and how different styles developed. Also, books on details concerning Colonial America are usually more accessable than ones on those of Medieval Europe. Thusly, I have found well illustrated articles on candlesticks, rushlights, grease lamps of all sorts, etc. In particular, I would recommend a book titled: "Lighting In America - From Colonial Rushlights to Victorian Chandeliers" Edited by Lawrence S. Cook. Main Street Press, Pittstown, New Jersey. In it, I found a couple of articles written by John Kirk Richardson. One was on the history of brass candlesticks. The other was titled: "Brass household candlesticks of the Gothic period." This later article had over a dozen photographs of candlesticks from 1200-1400. (Caveat: Just because something is 18th C. or crude looking, or is "old" does not mean that it is applicable for our period.) To reproduce any of these would require the skills of brass casting and turning. These are not skills common in the SCA. If you were to develop them and start making good copies of period brassware, (candlesticks, aquamanile, belt & sword furniture, etc.), you might find that you have the field to yourself and a ready market. I hope this is of some use, Ivar Hakonarson Adiantum, An Tir. From: rhayes at powerup.com.au (Robin Hayes) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Lamps, Holders etc. Date: 4 Apr 1997 12:57:57 GMT David M. Razler of david.razler at worldnet.att.net says... >illuminating devices, including the NY Met., >My first Society metal project was a portable version of a 14-candle >floor-standing candleholder I spotted one day at the Met. > >Paintings are a good, but secondary source, as an artist will generally make >something look either "good" or, in earlier period, fit the accepted style, if >the device is recorded at all. Check out The Art of Bronze Brass and Copper Exquisite artefacts from ancient times to the 20th century Jan Divis Hamlyn (english translation (c) 1991 Aventinum, Prague ISBN 0 600 57268 4 Contains much info, including picture of period lighting sources, eg, Bronze oil lamp in the shape of a sailing boat symbolizing the Church. Italy 4th C Page 38 and many others, as well as shapes of many types of period candlesticks. Robin From: Ettrick at mako.com Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Looking for Candlabras Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 16:05:13 GMT bosksca at aol.com (BoskSCA) wrote: > I am looking to get some more iron, brass, pewter or really any type > candle holders, candlabras and/or torch holders. Also looking for mountable > lanterns. Anyone have any they are looking to sell or know of a good place to > buy them? > > Bosk of the Teaghlach We have a new web site where we are selling period candle lanterns and a terrific candelabra. Take a look http://www.galaxymall.com/household/lanterns It is not quite completed, but should be fully done this week. You are able to order online by credit card on a secure connection, or email us for information about other ways to order. Magge of Ettrick From: Beth and Tom Sparks-Jacques Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Looking for Candlabras Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 09:25:18 -0800 I sell beautiful wrought iron candle holders and brass candle lanterns. The small candleholder is 9 inches tall and holds a pillar candle: $5.00 The large is 11.5 inches tall:$7.00 Both have a three footed base with an open twisted spiral of metal. My brass lanterns also come in two sizes. Small is 7 inches tall, 8 inches around: $8.00 Large is 9 inches tall, 12 inches around:$13.00 Both have star shaped cutout on the top and the glass panes have stars etched in the glass. There is a ring for hanging on the top. They both hold a votive candle. If you are interested in ordering you can e-mail me at peldyn at ccis.com I sell prepaid and COD I will also be selling them at Estrella. Beth Sparks-Jacques AKA Peldyn verch Hywel Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 08:38:20 -0700 From: Tim Bray To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ku.edu Subject: Re: "Period" candlesticks and chandeliers >Could someone please describe for me what "period", especially late period, >candlesticks and chandeliers were made of and what they looked like? What period, and where? Candlesticks are found in lots of museums; tell me what period you're looking for and I'll see if I can give you a specific reference. Chandeliers are more rarely met with, but there are some spectacular late 15th century examples. See the Arnolfini Betrothal for one. For a much simpler version, in a mid-15th century tent, see: www.greydragon.org/furniture/chandeliers.html In a few days I will update our Web site with photos of my version of the King Rene chandelier. >of my own of any kind. Would Pier One Imports be a good place to find them? >It's about the only store I could imagine having such candlesticks. Doubtful, but possible. Depends on how authentic you want it to look. Best to do some research first, get a good feel for what the medieval prototypes look like, before shopping in modern stores. >I haven't seen any of these items in museums. ???? Candlesticks are pretty common items in museums with collections of medieval objets d'art. The Boston MFA, for example. Colin Albion Works Furniture, Clothing, and Accesories For the Medievalist! www.albionworks.net Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 13:04:17 -0500 From: "Stephanie Howe" To: Subject: Re: "Period" candlesticks and chandeliers > >I would love to hear more about this oil lamp. For instance where > > was it found? Is there any evidence that it was actually used in > > England? Perhaps it was a gift and was only used decoratively? > > No the type I'm thinking of is very very common, more than candles use > for my period, where picks tend to be very primative I think Mel is referring to the candle holder when she mentions "picks"- early holders for bees wax or tallow tapers were little more than a sharp spike, point or "prick", sometimes with a stand or dish, that the candle would be stuck on. Modern American usage refers to the whole stand as a "candle stick". I'd bet that candle holders lost the spike and started using a cup when petroleum-derived paraffin wax came into common use- much harder and more brittle. Olga Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 13:21:41 -0500 (CDT) From: "Pixel, Queen of Cats" To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ku.edu Subject: Re: "Period" candlesticks and chandeliers Actually, cup-type candleholders are period to the 13th c., possibly before (but the books are at home). The 'pricket' type, which is the spike, were used for beeswax as it is firmer, while the cup types were used for tallow, as it has a bothersome tendency to be very very soft. The combination types, with a dish and a spike, could be used for either. Also used were rushlights, but my experiments with them suggest that they are every bit as nasty as Colonial US accounts say they were. In the archeologial record are wheel-thrown pottery candleholders of the small cup in a dish variety, with and without fingerloops. And, while we're talking about lighting, in Romsey Abbey on display are stone lamps meant for use with fat and a wick, or oil and a wick, dating to at least the 12th century abbey church, if not the earlier (9th c I *think*) Saxon church upon which the abbey church was built. One of them, IIRC, is a cluster of three carved in one block. Margaret FitzWilliam of Kent Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 13:54:23 -0400 From: Corwyn and Carowyn To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ku.edu Subject: Re: "Period" candlesticks and chandeliers >Could someone please describe for me what "period", especially late period, >candlesticks and chandeliers were made of and what they looked like? The two that come to mind are the two I've seen at two different museums. The first was at The Cloisters in NYC, and that one was twisted pieces of iron. (It actually looked like some candlesticks I made in metal shop, actually....) The second was in the Philadelphia Museum of Art, and that one was also twisted and wrapped bars of iron, but with small dragons (also in iron) decorating the surface. Neat! I wish I had gotten pics of it, since it looked like the dragons that Brock has made on occasion. -Caro Edited by Mark S. Harris candlesticks-msg