beds-msg - 2/20/08 Medieval and SCA beds. Rope and slat beds. Various mattresses. NOTE: See also the files: brooms-msg, furniture-msg, chairs-msg, decor-sources-msg, candles-msg, candlesticks-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: bdorion at sciborg.uwaterloo.ca (Brian Dorion) Subject: Four Poster Beds Organization: University of Waterloo Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1993 19:28:22 GMT wrote: > NIELSEN at falcon.mayo.EDU writes: >>Speaking of Rialto Party, I am still working on plans to make my pavilion >>even more decadent. Umm, does anyone by any chance have plans or ideas on >>how to make a four-poster bed that breaks down totally and stores fairly >>small-ly? I've got some ideas, but since all my wood-working skills have >>been learned on the fly (and a very small fly it was, too), I'm not sure >>what would work and what wouldn't. > >How bout a rope bed with high ends? I don't know how to make one but Konrad >has one. The rope bed that I have was made by someone else as a platform bed. I used as such for a year, but when the van went, I could no longer haul a 4' x 6' sheet of plywood around so I turned it into a rope bed. The article in the TI is a good starting point for building a rope bed. My bed differs a bit in that the joints are pinned together with wooden dowels. The legs are made of 4x4. The ones at the head of the bed are about 3 feet high and the ones at the foot are about 2 foot high. The sides of the bed are 2" x 6" boards with holes drilled through the center. The end boards are 2" x 4" with holes drilled through the center. The wood work on my bed is all pretty rough, it's not finished at all. If you pavillion is large enough you could put legs on your bed that would extend two to four feet above the mattress and hang misquito netting or drapperies from the top. You could run a rope or use two by two to frame the top of the bed. I transport my bed with a roof rack on a K-car. The longest board is six foot. I am looking at getting a 2-3" futon made to put on the bed. It should be fairly portable and would make the bed pretty decadent. Konrad Matthias Jaeger P.S. Do you have three other posters in mind to share the bed with? From: meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org (meg) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re:Sleeping at Pennsic (was newbie) Date: Wed, 18 May 94 09:43:01 EDT Organization: Stonemarche Network Co-op Megan here. I sleep on a bed. Well, actually, IN a bed, a shutbed to be precise. It is period in appearance, if not in material. The mattress is a foam mattress with eggcrate overlay for extra softness. I cover it with a white bedsheet, several warm blankets of handspun handwoven wool, and overall a brocaide cloth. My pillow is a feather pillow. I have a window on my right which opens out and up as a shutter. When I am lucky, Ellisif plays her gentle dulcimer beneath my window as I wake. When I am unlucky, some *6x$%&(&x:+$^!!! scot plays wretched bagpipes. (well, actually this only happened once. After what I said to him, I doubt if he'll ever return!) ON the left I have a curtain which is attached to rings that slide on a dowel to close off the 3 foot opening to my bed.At night I close these curtains, and enjoy the warmth of my cosy bed. It also keeps out the flies. Above my bed is a storage loft. I used to have a young apprentice who slept up there. Beneath my bed is another storage area, curtained off so you can't see the refrigerator where I hide my medications... Also, in the bed compartment are shelves. The ones you can see from outside the compartment have period looking containers on them, which hold mundane necessities. The ones you can't see have the bug spray, the matches, the alarm clock, the emergency flashlight. I also hang my hat on a peg on the wall above my feet. OUtside my bed, hanging on the wall, I keep an orinale, like any sensible person. G'night all! BTW, when it rains really hard, I close my window and go back to sleep. Megan == In 1994: Linda Anfuso In the Current Middle Ages: Megan ni Laine de Belle Rive In the SCA, Inc: sustaining member # 33644 YYY YYY meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org | YYYYY | |____n____| Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: davis.jim at epamail.epa.gov (Jim Davis) Subject: Re: Sleeping at Pennsic (was newbie) Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 15:30:13 GMT Organization: I don't think so. In article <1994May18.170454.13682 at ns.network.com> mercese at zrp.network.com (Steve E. Mercer) writes: >Some gentles have recently told me that rope beds are historically accurate >sleeping accomodations. Others have stated that rope beds are an entirely >modern creation. Does anyone have any documentation which demonstrates that >rope-mattress beds were used during the SCA time period? Rope beds certainly are period. I suggest you get a copy of: Eames, Penelope. Furniture in England, France, and The Netherlands from the Twelfth to the Fifteenth Century. London:The Furniture History Society, 1977. While there are no surviving rope beds (and thus no pictures), if I recall correctly, Eames lists several from period inventories. -RdG >-Justin Silvanus >-Barony of Nordskogen, Middle Kingdom Richard du Guesclin, Elvegast, Windmaster's Hill, Atlantia davis.jim at epamail.epa.gov From: meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org (meg) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Sleeping at Pennsic (was newbie) Date: Wed, 25 May 94 23:42:21 EDT Organization: Stonemarche Network Co-op davis.jim at epamail.epa.gov (Jim Davis) writes: > In article <1994May18.170454.13682 at ns.network.com> mercese at zrp.network.com (S > > >Some gentles have recently told me that rope beds are historically accurate > >sleeping accomodations. Others have stated that rope beds are an entirely > >modern creation. Does anyone have any documentation which demonstrates that > >rope-mattress beds were used during the SCA time period? > > Rope beds certainly are period. I suggest you get a copy of: > > Eames, Penelope. Furniture in England, France, and The Netherlands from the > Twelfth to the Fifteenth Century. London:The Furniture History Society, 1977. > > While there are no surviving rope beds (and thus no pictures), if I recall > correctly, Eames lists several from period inventories. -RdG > > >-Justin Silvanus > >-Barony of Nordskogen, Middle Kingdom > > Richard du Guesclin, Elvegast, Windmaster's Hill, Atlantia > davis.jim at epamail.epa.gov Megan here... there are paintings of rope beds from the Renaissance in "Italian Interiors of the Renaissance". == In 1994: Linda Anfuso In the Current Middle Ages: Megan ni Laine de Belle Rive In the SCA, Inc: sustaining member # 33644 YYY YYY meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org | YYYYY | |____n____| From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Sleeping at Pennsic (was newbie) Date: 26 May 1994 07:18:43 GMT Organization: University of California, Berkeley >davis.jim at epamail.epa.gov (Jim Davis) writes: >> Rope beds certainly are period. I suggest you get a copy of: >> >> Eames, Penelope. Furniture in England, France, and The Netherlands from the >> Twelfth to the Fifteenth Century. London:The Furniture History Society, 1977. >> >> While there are no surviving rope beds (and thus no pictures), if I recall There is a surviving rope bed dated to 1620 at -- I believe -- the Museum of London. (At least it was there back in 1981. I have sketches that I made of it but didn't note clearly which museum I was in at the time.) It's very plain and quite narrow; basically just four square posts and the rails that hold the lacing, plus two braces around floor level between the pairs of posts at head and foot. Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Sleeping at Pennsic (was newbie) Date: 23 May 1994 08:10:59 GMT Organization: University of California, Berkeley Steve E. Mercer wrote: > >Some gentles have recently told me that rope beds are historically accurate >sleeping accomodations. Others have stated that rope beds are an entirely >modern creation. Does anyone have any documentation which demonstrates that >rope-mattress beds were used during the SCA time period? > >-Justin Silvanus The earliest extant example of a rope bed that I've seen was dated 1620 -- not quite in period, but certainly within a reasonable margin of error. (I believe this example was in the British Museum -- my notes and sketches are from over a decade ago and aren't entirely clear on that point; it might instead have been the Museum of London.) It's quite simple, with a plain square post at each corner, flush at the top with the side rails, and with a brace just above floor level between the pairs of posts at head and foot. The plainness of the design and lack of ornamentation suggest that this was not some curious innovation, but more likely a traditional middle or possibly even lower class artifact. I haven't been able to find examples in art on a cursory search, but if the rope bed were, in fact, a middle-class style, it would be less likely to be represented there and would probably need a more in depth search to turn up examples. Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn From: jab2 at stl.stc.co.uk (Jennifer Ann Bray) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Sleeping at Pennsic (was newbie) Date: 25 May 94 13:46:48 Organization: STC Technology Ltd., London Road, Harlow, UK. >Some gentles have recently told me that rope beds are historically accurate >sleeping accomodations. Others have stated that rope beds are an entirely >modern creation. Does anyone have any documentation which demonstrates that >rope-mattress beds were used during the SCA time period? The Victoria and Albert museum in London has the great bed of Ware. this is a large four poster bed which was mentioned by Shakespear, so it was around and in use then. The bed has turned and carved posts, a carved back, and a very sturdy wooden frame. The original ropes have gone, and the bed is on display without any bedding, but it still looked pretty impressive to me. The Oseberg and Gokstad ship burials (8th and tenth centurys respectively) both had wooden bed frames. These were not four posters but had head posts carved with animal heads, and plainer foot posts. I believe these beds originall had wooden slats for the bases, if anyone is seriously interested I have a copy of the original archaeologists write up on the Gokstad ship (It's called something like "The Viking Ship discovered at Gokstad" and it's by N. Nicolaysem. It was publisged by Alb Cammermeyer & the date was something like 1882, I'd have to check that up to be sure). If anyone wants any more info I can look it up for them. email me at: J.A.Bray at bnr.co.uk but you'll have to write soon because that account is due to be disabled on June 24th when I move jobs. On a different topic can anyone tell me how to subscribe to the digest version of the Rialto? Jennifer/Rannveik Vanaheim Vikings From: mordraut at bga.com (Mordraut Freyulf) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Rope Bed (was Sleeping at Pennsic ) Date: 26 May 1994 15:18:40 GMT Organization: Real/Time Communications - Bob Gustwick and Associates Nils Hammer (nh0g+ at andrew.cmu.edu) wrote: : When I went to a museum of the Atocha wreck (1622?) I saw a wooden : fragment that was believed to be from a bedframe. The hole spacing was : approx. 2" then 4" repeated. This suggests to me that it was actually a : strap bed. : I would like to know if anyone has a way for a rope bed to breakdown for : travel without needing to re-thread the ropes. I have given it some thought : based on the folding army cot, but I am not yet satisfied. Instead of using a rope bed, I have a breakdown slat bed, based on Norse design. I use seven slats to support 1/4" plywood, and then add padding. The overall size for the bedding is queensize, and I've had no problems. -- |----------------------------------------------------------------------------| | Mordraut Freyulf | So what is a 13th Century Mongol doing | Dark Horde | | mordraut at bga.com | Riding down the Information Superhighway | Moritu | |----------------------------------------------------------------------------| From: s_rodger at acad.lvc.edu (Scott Rodgers) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Rope Bed (was Sleeping at Pennsic ) Date: 26 May 1994 21:34 CDT Organization: Texas A&M University OpenVMScluster In article <2s2ekg$9gj at giga.bga.com>, mordraut at bga.com (Mordraut Freyulf) writes... >Nils Hammer (nh0g+ at andrew.cmu.edu) wrote: >: When I went to a museum of the Atocha wreck (1622?) I saw a wooden *snip* > >: I would like to know if anyone has a way for a rope bed to breakdown for >: travel without needing to re-thread the ropes. I have given it some thought >: based on the folding army cot, but I am not yet satisfied. > *snip* While i was helping some friends set up their camp for the texas ren festival i noticed that they were using a rope bed. The first i'd ever seen, but this was going to be where they slept every weekend for quite a few months. The headboard, and sideboards all had slots in them so that you could slide the rope down into the slot. The rope itself was weeved in such a manner very much like a hammock, or fishing net. After this was done they used some sturdy thread to tie around each point of connection. This way they could simply pull the ropes up off of the framework, and roll it up like a carpet. The legs had grooves in them for the boards to slide down into, and pegholes to secure the boards into the legs. For breaking it down you just had to pull the pegs and lift the boards out. The longest piece was 6ft long, but you could always use tongue and groove construction to split them into 3 foot pieces. I especially liked their bed because it used to nails at all. Occasionally they would have to untie the ends of the rope to take in the slack, since rope stretches. However the ties they used at the joins allowed the rope to play through them easily. If i had an encampment to begin with, i think i might make a rope bed just for the fun of doing it. Humbly, Scott Rodgers (mundane but working on it) From: ddfr at aol.com (DDFr) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Rope Bed (was Sleeping at Pennsic ) Date: 26 May 1994 22:49:03 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Nils Hammer asks: "I would like to know if anyone has a way for a rope bed to breakdown for travel without needing to re-thread the ropes." Yes. The frame is 2x4's. At each corner, one of them is cut down to about 1 1/2 x 2 and fits through a 1 1/2 x 2 hole in the other. The tension of the ropes holds the whole thing together very tightly--no pegs necessary. To disassemble, you loosen the ropes enough so that you can pull the frame apart, then lay all four frame pieces parallel and together, with the rope still threaded. Tightening when you set up is still a pain, but I haven't relaced in years. David/Cariadoc From: kathy.duffy at buckys.com (Kathy Duffy) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Sleeping at Pennsic (was newbie) Date: Sun, 22 May 1994 20:35:00 GMT Organization: Bucky's BBS (609)861-1131 * Dennisville, NJ M>Some gentles have recently told me that rope beds are historically accurate >sleeping accomodations. Others have stated that rope beds are an entirely >modern creation. Does anyone have any documentation which demonstrates that >rope-mattress beds were used during the SCA time period? The Bed of Ware in the British Museum was a rope bed and was famous during the Tudor period. It is immense even by modern standards. From: Lassman at BldgDafoe.Lan1.UManitoba.CA (Linda Lassman) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Sleeping at Pennsic Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 23:34:56 GMT Organization: University of Manitoba A number of years ago there was an article in TI about period rope beds, with instructions on how to make one. The instructions were clear enough that even I, The Compleat Non-Woodworker, successfully make one. It's still doing good service (although not to me) :-) - Gabriela dei Clementini Barony of Castel Rouge, Midrealm Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: rope beds From: schuldy at zariski.harvard.edu (Mark Schuldenfrei) Date: 26 May 94 10:53:14 EDT Organization: My own little corner. ALBAN at delphi.COM writes: i tried using a rope bed for a while at pennsic and various other camping events. i switched eventually to a slat bed. trouble i found with rope beds is that the bloody rope kept stretching, which means i'd have to tighten it every couple of days, which gets to be a nuisance. My friend Harald Longfellow made an excellent suggestion as he helped me make my bed. We made a large number of wedges, by cutting 2 x 4 boards diagonally. When the bed rope stretches a little, drive a wedge between the loops of rope around the outside of the bed, and the frame. Tightens right up. I have found that the ropes ease a good bit for a few hours after the bed is first assembled. A good tightening after that is useful. Following that, a few wedges the first night, and perhaps one or two more the following days, will do. Tibor -- Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy at math.harvard.edu) From: salley at niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Viking Beds Date: 27 May 94 15:02:01 GMT Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208 A gentle asked if Viking beds actually existed in period, or were they simply an SCA invention. They're period. I built my first Viking bed in 1987. I saw a picture, taken in a museum, of a Viking ship. In the background was what appeared to be a Viking bed. I wrote to the Norwegian Embassy in Washington, explaining that I was in the process of building one, I didn't speak Norwegian, and would they please forward a request for more information about the bed to the museum itself. I heard nothing for about three weeks, then JACKPOT!!! I received a 9x12 envelope from the Norwegian Information Service in the US literally stuffed to overflowing. Without exaggeration, it was 3/4 in thick. Photographs of the bed, a chair, tent arches, a chest all from the ship along with the prow of the ship itself. Official Norwegian govt. publications on Viking sculpture, archeological digs of Viking ships, pamphlets of a Viking Art exhibition, postcards from the museum, etc. etc. etc. Hours of reading material, it was wonderful! Perfect documentation. They also included a letter stating that the museum staff could handle correspondence in English and would be happy to answer any further questions. The addresses: Norwegian Information Service, 825 Third Avenue, New York NY 10022-7584 Viking Ships Museum, 35 Huk Avenue 35, Oslo Norway 0287 - Dagonell SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr Habitat : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, Rhydderich Hael Barony Internet : salley at niktow.cs.canisius.edu USnail-net : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029 Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: rzex60 at email.sps.mot.com (Jason Magnus) Subject: Re: Rope beds Organization: The Polyhedron Group Date: Fri, 17 Jun 1994 20:37:12 GMT In article <9406171318.AA23372 at roym.batdd1.pica.army.mil>, mortonr at pica.ARmy.MIL wrote: > I've been scanning through some of my old extracts from the > Rialto and came across a description of a rope bed. The description > is as follows: > > A 4' X 6-1/2 ' frame of 2X6 boards, held at the corners by > 4" door hinges and supported by 4 1-1/2' 2X6 legs bolted to the frame. > 3/4" holes are drilled every 6" around the frame to thread the rope > through. Sounds like a reasonable, functional design. It's inexpensive, and easily made by a novice. It also provides a good starting point for far better designs, using better joinery and materials, for those of us who are woodworkers. Thanks for sharing it with us. I think you have just inspired me to try my hand at making an improved, more period-looking version. I have seen several similar rope beds in West Kingdom and in An Tir. Allowing for the modern materials and fastening devices, the concept isn't all that different from some period beds that I've studied in my quest for period furniture designs. I will add to your specs that the rope used should be a type that is strong, abrasion-resistant, and doesn't easily streach. Something that holds knots well is a darned good idea too :-) (which disallows most polypropylene rope). > Questions: Is there any special recommended way of threading the > rope? Yes. Lengthwise first, then width-wise. > Do you just tie a knot at one end, run the rope back and > forth and then tye a knot in the other end? Basicly, yes. Start with a knot on the outside, in the foot-board close to one leg. Go to the other end, out the corresponding hole and back in through the next one away from the leg. Repeat until you run out of end holes. At the last end hole, go around the outside of the frame to the nearest hole on a long side. (This is a good point to pause and tighten the ropes so far.) Then continue weaving the width-wise part. When you get to the end, a 'tinber hitch' or a series of half-hitches around the side frame or the leg secures the end. This is -much- easier to untie later, and to adjust as you tighten the ropes. It also allows you something to do with the slack rope that is hanging out of the hole after you tighten it all up. You may also want to consider tying a timber hitch at the starting point, so you can tighten in both directions. I've seen it done either way. > Do you interlace > (weave) the lengthwise and widthwise ropes? It's best if you do, because it yields a flatter surface. But it works OK if you lay the width-wise ropes on top of the others, or if you alternate with one over all then one under all. > Do you use one long > length of rope or different ropes for the length and the width? Either, as you choose. Two ropes allows independent tensioning. One rope is less wasteful and more common. > Is there any special design needed for the key? What key? If you mean a tensioning device, you just pull it tight and timber-hitch it. > The legs are described as being bolted on 1 ' from the > ends of the long side. Does this mean that a 3/4" hole should > be bored through them and the leg centered over the rope hole, > or that the 2X6 should be cut down to a 2X5 and placed between > rope holes? It can go either way. Remember that a '2x6' has an actual measurement of 1.5" x 5.25", so it won't obstruct the holes much. if you find that it does, notch the sides of the legs. Some refinements: Period rope beds have a groove for the rope in the outer surface of the rails, making it less likely to catch on things. Since you'll be pulling the rope tight, it will be abrading where it contacts the side of the holes that it bends toward. Radius this edge of each hole with a rat-tail file to minimize wear on the rope. Consider a more sturdy method of joining the legs, rather than hinges. The hinges will get loose and wobbly rather soon. The fittings used to attach wooden bed rails to headboards work better, though they take more work. A metal plate with two hooks on it is attached to the end of all rails. Matching metal plates with two slots in them are attached to the legs. I used this technique to make a bed before, and it was quite stable and strong. I used 18-inch 4x4's for the legs. -- Regards, Jason Magnus (aka Jay Brandt) In the SCA, HLS Jason of Rosaria, JdL, GdS, AoA (Member # 3016) Designer / Craftsman : Bear Paw Woodworks From: Alberic6 Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Rope beds Date: Fri, 17 Jun 94 22:18:08 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info at delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Greetings all, In regards to the previous discussion on rope beds, I've used one at Pennsic for the last 6 years, and have been tinkering with it on-&-off for most of that time. The two things I'm currently playing with are putting a turnkey on every loop, and possibly using cleats instead of holes. The turnkey idea sounds like a lot of work, but I think it will make it easier to get the thing decently tight. The other idea was that instead of threading the whole line *through* holes, why not pass them *around* cleats? It would make it infinitely faster to set up, and if I can think of any way to do it that will still let me turnkey it, I suspect I will. (The longest part of setting it up is threading it....1hr usually.) One neat idea I saw once was having a bed that hinged in the middle so it could be folded up and stowed on a roof-rack, then taken down, opened As to the type of line, my preference is for something *braided* and not a standard cable twist. Reason being that the twisted line tends to come undone when being turnkeyed, while the braided stuff doesn't. Later- Alberic (Better camping through high-tech medievalism....) From: mcs at unlinfo.unl.edu (M Straatmann) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Rope beds Date: 20 Jun 1994 13:22:55 GMT Organization: University of Nebraska--Lincoln In article Alberic6 writes: : >The two things I'm currently playing with are putting a turnkey on every loop, : >and possibly using cleats instead of holes. : >The turnkey idea sounds like a lot of work, but I think it will make it easier : >to get the thing decently tight. : >The other idea was that instead of threading the whole line *through* holes, : >why not pass them *around* cleats? It would make it infinitely faster to : >set up, and if I can think of any way to do it that will still let me : >turnkey it, I suspect I will. Having just finished testing my new rope bed at Lillies ; I found that a cleat used at the end of a rope makes tightening easier. I used two ropes, one across, one back and forth, and when I had tightened it, I simply wound it around the cleat. Much easier for knot-impaired people like myself. mikhail, calontir ********Michael Straatmann**********mcs at unlinfo.unl.edu********** Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: MCNUTT at gateway.ce.utk.edu (Bill McNutt) Subject: Re: Rope beds Organization: University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education Date: Tue, 21 Jun 1994 14:28:05 GMT In article keegan at netcom.com (Tim Bray/C. Keegan) writes: >Bill McNutt (MCNUTT at gateway.ce.utk.edu) wrote: >: My first thought was "All those cleats would catch on everything in the van, >: making it a bitch to load and unload. But if you were to double-knotch the >: under-side of the boards, essentially making wooden cleats... >Will the cleats hold up to the high stresses and general abuse? And if >they are on the underside of the boards, how do they stay in place when >you lie on the bed? (Or do other things on it...) You bring the rope over the top of the side runner, down to the cleat, and back over the top. I'll scan in a gif for anyone who wants to see it, if it works. We're gonna find out. I revved up the ol' router this weekend, and I should have the beds finished in time for Border Raids this weekend. (Good thing, too. I'm too old to be sleepin' on the ground.) It takes a long time to make mortise and tenon joints, even with power tools. Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: keegan at netcom.com (Tim Bray/C. Keegan) Subject: Re: Rope beds Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 1994 01:52:49 GMT Jason Magnus (rzex60 at email.sps.mot.com) wrote: : Consider a more sturdy method of joining the legs, rather than hinges. The : hinges will get loose and wobbly rather soon. The fittings used to attach : wooden bed rails to headboards work better, though they take more work. A : metal plate with two hooks on it is attached to the end of all rails. : Matching metal plates with two slots in them are attached to the legs. I : used this technique to make a bed before, and it was quite stable and : strong. I used 18-inch 4x4's for the legs. Our bed was made for us by my squire some years ago. Instead of fasteners to hold the rails to the legs, which as you correctly pointed out will get wobbly over time, he chopped large mortises in the tops of the 4x4 legs and cut tenons on the ends of the rails. The tenons were haunched rather than shouldered, i.e. the tenon was formed by cutting away half of the width of the board at the end; the tenons were 3-1/2 inches long so they were flush with the outside of the legs. The mortises are cut such that one tenon fits over the other, in such a way theat the rails are level with each other. (Is any of this making sense? How I wish I could simply show you a picture!) From this description you may have noticed no means of holding the joint together. The joint is in fact loose and wobbly, until you tighten the ropes, at which point the bed hold itself together. It really works, you can toss & turn all you want. (Or whatever.) The only problem that developed shortly after the beds were put into uses, is that the mortises were too large and weakened the 4x4s too much, and the joints began to crack & split. This was repaired by drilling and inserting long lag-screws through the weak parts. Inelegant, but functional, and hidden after it's done. If you used 6x6 instead, it might be strong enough. Or if you used oak, or cut smaller mortises, etc. This concept could undoubtedly be developed further to yield a nearly authentic design that holds up to repeated assembly and (more destructive) disassembly. Period beds were assembled with pegged mortise-and-tenon joints (as were almost everything else) that aren't really amenable to knockdown use. Tusk-tenons are period and work really well for knockdown joinery, but I haven't worked out how to design a joint to use them in this application. Regards, Tim From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Rope beds Date: 21 Jun 1994 03:11:18 GMT Organization: University of California, Berkeley Tim Bray/C. Keegan (keegan at netcom.com) wrote: : Our bed was made for us by my squire some years ago. Instead of : fasteners to hold the rails to the legs, which as you correctly pointed : out will get wobbly over time, he chopped large mortises in the tops of : the 4x4 legs and cut tenons on the ends of the rails. The tenons were : haunched rather than shouldered, i.e. the tenon was formed by cutting : away half of the width of the board at the end; the tenons were 3-1/2 : inches long so they were flush with the outside of the legs. The : mortises are cut such that one tenon fits over the other, in such a way : theat the rails are level with each other. (Is any of this making : sense? How I wish I could simply show you a picture!) : From this description you may have noticed no means of holding the joint : together. The joint is in fact loose and wobbly, until you tighten the : ropes, at which point the bed hold itself together. It really works, you : can toss & turn all you want. (Or whatever.) Then you add to this something that I came up with for my own rope-bed. you use two ropes -- one for each direction. And when you lace it up the first time, you leave enough extra length at the end of the rope as the number of lacing holes times the length of a tenon. Then, at the end of the event, you _loosen_ the rope but don't actually unstring it. You now have enough slack to slide the tenons out of the corner posts (one end at a time). There is also enough slack in the rope now that you can collapse the laced-up part into a bundle no longer than the longer of a) the side bar; or b) 2x the end bar. When you set the bed up, you just tighten the lacing after fitting the corner posts on. You _don't_ have to thread and weave the ropes, which is by far the most annoying part. And what's more, you have a physical frame that is about as close to the period frames I've seen as you can get and still be able to take the thing apart. I came up with something more complicated, more annoying, more fragile, and less authentic than the above system and now wish I hadn't. I also find that I have no problem whatever with having the ropes sag during the course of an event, so I don't know what I'm doing differently from the people who are making such a fuss about the hassle of tightening ropes. I'm using an ordinary, twisted, natural-fiber rope and just tie it off with a couple of half-hitches. Over a three-day event there is no noticable sag. I haven't tried it for a week at a time, but I can't see having to tighten it more than once at the most -- if at all. Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn From: mortonr at pica.ARmy.MIL Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Rope Beds Date: 22 Jun 1994 09:55:04 -0400 Greetings to all on the Rialto! First, let me just say Thankyouthankyouthankyou to everyone who responded to my rope bed post. Secondly, on the subject of cleats catching on things, has anyone thought about a cap-bar? You know, a piece that runs the length of the piece bridging all the cleats. I'm not sure how it would attatch, but it could be made simply by cutting a piece 1/2" wide from the edge of the board before cutting the cleats. Does this make any sense? -Malcolm From: Alberic6 Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Rope beds Date: Fri, 24 Jun 94 09:27:22 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info at delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Greetings again; On the subject of rope bed joints, (No, I can't extract....long live delphi...) My old and much modified rope bed seems to work pretty well with the following system. When I built it, I used 2"x6" nominal lumber, and devided that along the tall face into three equal sections. For the sides, I cut out the centre section 1 unit tall, and 1.625" deep. (thickness of boards) for the ends, I then cut out the top and bottom sections to equal depth, so a sort of Tab A/groove B system existed. When I assemble it, I just stick the tongues into the grooves/notches in the end boards and the tension of the ropes holds it all together. In 6 years, that's about the only thing that *hasn't* been modified on that bed, at least once. It has never had a problem with wanting to become some shape other than a rectangle. (Imagine if it suddenly took a thought to becoming a.... ?trapezoid? in the middle of the night...) The advantage to that system is that I have two sets of end boards for different events. 4.5 foot wide bed for my Lady & I at Pennsic, or just 3 feet for me at other events. Oh, one last note: To whoever mentioned the idea about threading the rope through little eyelets or something inside the frame without actually putting the lines *through* the frame, I tried that about 2 years ago... didn't seem to work all that well, and it didn't really speed it up all that much. (yes, it really *does* take an hour to thread...I've timed it.) Although if someone really wants to try that, I've got a few ideas that might improve over what I had. (the best plan? learn from someone *elses* mistakes....) regards, Alberic. From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Rope beds Date: 22 Jun 1994 18:30:11 GMT Organization: University of California, Berkeley Jason Magnus (rzex60 at email.sps.mot.com) wrote: : Heather: : > Then you add to this something that I came up with for my own rope-bed. : > you use two ropes -- one for each direction. And when you lace it up the : > first time, you leave enough extra length at the end of the rope as the : > number of lacing holes times the length of a tenon. Then, at the end of : > the event, you _loosen_ the rope but don't actually unstring it. You now : > have enough slack to slide the tenons out of the corner posts (one end at : > a time). There is also enough slack in the rope now that you can collapse : > the laced-up part into a bundle no longer than the longer of a) the side : > bar; or b) 2x the end bar. When you set the bed up, you just tighten the : I like that idea. But is your bed square? That would allow you to fold the : frame diagonally once the legs are removed, and then collapse it to the : length of one rail. If it's rectangular though, wouldn't the collapsed : bundle be the length of a side rail -plus- the length of an end rail? No, the bed is 4' x 6'. The lacing is loose enough to allow some play in the collapsing. Let's see if I can diagram it out: | = board (x) = matching corners (1) (1) (2) | | | | | | | (2) | | (3) | | | | (3) | (4) (4) Trust me; it works. Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn From: Charly.The.Bastard at f1077.n147.z1.fidonet.org (Charly The Bastard) Date: 22 Jun 94 16:28:24 -0500 Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Rope beds Organization: Fidonet: In the distance...Vanishing Point After you build your Viking Bed, run out to the lumberyard and get some 1/2" plywood and make a panel to fit inside the frame, about 6" smaller than the inside dimensions and lay it on top of the rope netting. this spreads the load over all the ropes right up by the frame rails and prevents the dreaded 'Bjornsag factor' that you get when your weight is carried by only a few strands in the middle. I tip the scales at two hundredweight, and my bed is damn near sagproof. Just a thought... --------- Fidonet: Charly The Bastard 1:147/1077 Internet: Charly.The.Bastard at f1077.n147.z1.fidonet.org From: haslock at oleum.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Tusk-tennons Date: 29 Jun 1994 01:12:15 GMT Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Greetings from Fiacha, I built a workable tusk tenon joint for this application but in birch and ash rather than 2x6 and 4x4 lumber. However, it should still work. Top view - L = Leg, S = side rail, E = end rail, each letter = 1"x1" LLLL EEELLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEELLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE LLLL SS SS Bed Area SS ^ Pin goes sideways through tusk in end rail Side View LLLL LLLLSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS LLLLSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS LEELSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS LEELSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS LLLLSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS LLLLSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS LLLL LLLL LLLL Adjust for height End View LLLL EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSLL EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSLL EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSLLEEE EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSLLEEE EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSLL EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSLL LLLL LLLL LLLL Decomposed Top LLLL SS LLLL SS EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE LLLL SS EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE LLLL SS SS SS SS Side LLLL LLLL EE SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS LLLL EE SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS L L EE S SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS L L EE S SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS LLLL EE SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS LLLL EE SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS LLLL LLLL LLLL End LLLL EEEEEEEE SS LL EEEEEEEE SS LL EEEEEEEEEEEEE SS LL EEEEEEEEEEEEE SS LL EEEEEEEE ^ SS LL EEEEEEEE | SS LL | LLLL Make hole for pin here LLLL LLLL This assumes 2x6 lumber for the rails and 4x4 lumber for the legs. An alternative assembly would spin the legs to the inside of the side rails and let the short ropes squash the legs between the side rails and the end rails. The next step is to make the head legs tall enough to support a head board. Alternatively, fit poles into the tops of the legs and add fabric to covert it into a fourposter. Using the post to simply support a mosquito net might be preferred but I want the extra insulation of a heavier fabric. Fiacha From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Sleeping at Pennsic (was newbie) Date: 17 May 1994 01:22:26 GMT Organization: University of California, Berkeley In article <1994May15.230432.7408 at ucbeh>, wrote: >about getting off the ground while sleeping at Pennsic... > >If you really want to sleep in comfort and warmth, may I suggest the Therm a >Rest air mattress available at sporting goods stores (unless of course, you > >Tangwystel vyrgh Gwythenek If I may venture a different opinion, if you _really_ want to sleep in comfort and warmth, I have not yet found anything to beat my own furniture: a rope-mattress bed (I've even gotten around the problem of lacing and unlacing for every set-up), padded with a sheep-skin sheet, a feather-bed upon that, made up with sheets of linen, and to cover it another feather bed. One of the major advantages of an actual bed-stead is that you needn't worry about the ground being a bit muddy. The above may sound a bit elaborate, but I put the bed-frame together myself with about $20 worth of lumber, the feather-beds are ones I use at home, so I didn't buy anything special, the sheep-skin blanket was a bit of a find, but isn't really essential -- any heavy blanket that supports the feather-bed will do. I've slept in this arrangement and woken up warm and toasty at Estrella on mornings when the first order of business was to break the ice in the water bucket. And best of all -- it's historcally authentic. Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn From: folo at prairienet.org (F.L. Watkins) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re:Sleeping at Pennsic (was newbie) Date: 16 May 1994 13:05:17 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana We do a lot of camping (well, maybe less of it this year if the season is as rainy as last year), and we have come up with three good bedding methods, which we use according to what we remember and bring. Straw is excellent for your bedding. Make yourself a nest and put down a bunch of blankets and furs, and you have yourself a comfortable, adjustable and warm bed. Drawbacks: allergies, bugs and clean-up (spread a garbage bag beneath the straw to help you pack it away when you decamp; alternatively, some sites we've dealt with like you merely to kick it and spread it out over the site). Benefits: if it gets damp and muddy, you don't have to take it home. We have an air mattress that we often use. We use a survival blanket (you know, that silver uncomfortable thing that is supposed to reflect heat back at you; it works, since we used one on our waterbed and didn't realize for several days that our heater had broken) on top of the mattress, followed by the blankets, etc. Drawbacks: they *always* leak, usually develop holes after a while and need to be reinflated regularly at lengthy encampments. Benefits: comfort. Finally, we have a pair of ridge rests: compressed foam, done with little designs to help circulation beneath you. They keep you up off the ground and keep you warm. Unfortunately, not very high off the ground, so if you're camping in a swamp (such as the time we had like four inches of rain in our tent--and we were the *lucky* ones) you're gonna get wet. Benefits: easy to pack, easy to maintain, insulates. Drawbacks: not much of a cushion; my wife uses an additional foam mat (like you used in kindergarten for naptime) on her side of the bed. You will notice that we do not use sleeping bags. We haven't for years. A bunch of nice wool blankets are much more versatile and have served us extremely well. Hope to see people at Pennsic. We'll be at the usual spot most probably. Yrs, Folo -- Damin de Folo - F.L.Watkins - folo at prairienet.org Baron Wurm Wald (MK) - Commander Baldwin's Reg't (NWTA) From: nusbache at epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Sleeping at Pennsic (was newbie) Date: 17 May 1994 01:53:29 GMT Organization: EPAS Computing Facility, University of Toronto Last year I slept wrapped in a blanket without benefit of tent nor mattress. One night on the deck by the lagoon behind the bath-house, and one in the E-ground courtesy of Ilaine. It was interesting to do Pennsic with only the supplies I could carry on my back. I recommend it as a good lesson in perspective. For two nights. Cheers, Aryk Nusbacher From: davis at aur.alcatel.com (Alan Davis) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re:Sleeping at Pennsic (was newbie) Date: 16 May 1994 16:29:21 GMT Organization: Alcatel Network Systems, Inc. ... > >Straw is excellent for your bedding. Make yourself a nest and ... > >We have an air mattress that we often use. We use a survival ... > >Finally, we have a pair of ridge rests: compressed foam, > >Yrs, Folo >-- >Damin de Folo - F.L.Watkins - folo at prairienet.org >Baron Wurm Wald (MK) - Commander Baldwin's Reg't (NWTA) The most comfortable Pennsic I've had was the year that I splurged and went Campaign style : 9x15 pavillion, slat bed, camp chairs, trestle table, chests, etc. I used a woven grass mat over the ground tarp. It was a rainy year and except for a slight trickle that ended about 2' from the door one day when I left it open, it was dry and comfy. Pavillions have the added advantage of staying MUCH cooler than 'modern' tents, I could sleep till noon w/o baking. Specifically the bed : $30 worth of lumber and minor hardware and about an hours work with a saw and router makes a portable slat bed frame. The slats are attached to 2 strips of hemp-like webbing and roll up. The sides and ends slot together w/o fasteners. Put a futon on top and you are as comfortable as at home. There is storage space under the bed for items you don't need quick access to. --- Alan Davis davis at aur.alcatel.com | Employed by, but not CAD Specialist | speaking for Alcatel Alcatel Network Systems Raleigh, NC, USA | Network Systems. From: odlin at reed.edu (Iain Odlin) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Rope beds and other means of not sleeping on the ground Date: 20 Oct 1994 05:10:42 GMT Organization: The Stuffed Animal Trauma Team (We're Trained Professionals) [What do you sleep on at Pennsic?] My solution to the problem of cold ground and flat air-mattresses may not be suitable for everyone, but it works well for me and my subaru station- wagon. I bought a futon (full-sized) that has a two piece frame [It turns into a nice couch occasionally ;) ]. The frame, its two pieces fit together compactly, get tied to the roof-rack and the mattress goes into the back on top of all my other gear boxes. There's enough airspace left over it for me to (a) see out, and (b) sleep on it on my way to and from Pennsic. Not for everyone, I admit, but it serves my purposes and adds that extra bit of decadance to my "palace" ["That's nicer -- and bigger -- than my apartment," was a frequent phrase uttered by visitors. It's still not as period as I'd like, but I'm working on it]. -Iain, Decadant Pursuivant ------------------------- Iain Odlin, odlin at reed.edu ------------------------- 42 Clifton Street, Portland ME 04101 Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman) Subject: Re: Rope beds and other means of not sleeping on the ground Organization: University of Chicago Date: Fri, 21 Oct 1994 02:17:10 GMT Elizabeth and I used a rope bed for years, but were never entirely happy with it. This Pennsic I made a slat bed (a mortress-and-tenon peg together four poster) for our four year old daughter, and liked it so much I made a full size one for us. It worked very nicely. It is easier to set up than the rope bed because you do not have the problem of tightening the ropes, and it has much less sag. The railings, which I thought were for a canopy and curtains (which I did not make), are very convenient as a place to put damp clothes when you take them off, hang up my purse and belt when I am sleeping, and similar purposes. Incidentally, both the rope bed and the slat bed used a futon as the mattress. David/Cariadoc From: ifdz176 at utxsvs.cc.utexas.edu (Amanda Shields- Queen of the Smurfs) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Rope beds and other means of not sleeping on the ground Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 01:08:23 -0600 Organization: University of Texas at Austin M'lady, I feel I must warn you of a potential hazard of rope beds. Now, I have had no _experience_ with this phenomenon (at least not in a rope bed :)), but I have heard reports of the noise such beds make, especially under _ahem_ certain conditions. I would take that into consideration if I were you, as a precaution in case there be smalls in the adjoining encampment. Anne Margarethe (Anagret) von Bayern Collegium Turris Animarum Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra From: randally at aol.com (RandallY) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Rope beds and other means of not sleeping on the ground Date: 20 Oct 1994 09:16:03 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) In article , ifdz176 at utxsvs.cc.utexas.edu (Amanda Shields- Queen of the Smurfs) writes: >I have heard reports of the noise such beds make, especially under >_ahem_ certain conditions. Having made and "used" my own rope bed, I will attest to Amanda's response. (And my wife and I were sharing our divided tent with another couple!) Oh well. Pay heed, it is advise well given! From: paulb at saturn.uark.edu (Paul A. Byers) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Rope beds and other means of not sleeping on the ground Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 14:11:30 Organization: University of Arkansas In article <38jski$mcm at crcnis1.unl.edu> tmyers at unlinfo.unl.edu (tim myers) writes: >I would think that the most important aspect of the rope would be whether >it stretched or not. A rope that stretches would make a rope bed basically >a hammock in an enclosing frame. Thats why I when to a breakdown platform bed. At 250+ (never you mind how much +) By the time I got a frame strong enough and enough rope its was cheaper and easier to pack a platform bed. Pavel Calontir From: jtn at cse.uconn.EDU (J. Terry Nutter) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Need Pennsic Info - bring camper? Date: 27 Apr 1995 13:31:22 -0400 Organization: The Internet Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn. Chris Faubert writes about what to sleep on at Pennsic: > This is a big issue. I am less inclined toward her using what we usually > use (a blow-up matteress) for a variety of reasons, most notably that she > would have to kneel, crouch etc to get in and out and that the thing is a > moisture magnet. Too many nights we slept in a damp bed. But what to do > for a economical alternative?? I have seen Don Danulf's bed (a hand-made > rope affair) and while I admire it greatelt, it's one more bulky thing to > bring to the war. That and you have to constantly adjust the ropes (I > think). A camp cot was an idea but we've looked at what's available from > Sears and other sporting goods stores and they are really flimsy. Mostly > aluminium and thin canvas. My lord and I, being both large, and these days creaky in the joints, faced this issue a couple of years back. After some research, I realized that I was looking for a period solution to a modern problem: medieval travellers did not have to worry about fitting a bed into a Toyota, along with two weeks' gear. So we started looking for cheap modern solutions. The inspiration for what follows, is the way the platforms that hold up really cheap old-style waterbeds are made. It's simple, it's cheap, and it works; you may find it helpful. Take some plywood. Cut it into strips: at least two and up to four of the length of your bed, ditto of the width, and all as wide as you want your bed to be high. Notch them so that you can set the long pieces on edge with the notches up, and slide the shorter ones in across them to lock into a frame. Then cut a couple of sheets each to be the length of your bed and half the width. Slap them on top of the frame, and voila, you have a platform on which to put a futon (or for that matter, an air mattress). BTW: many people complain of damp bedding. I have found that the usual problem is dew, which collects (yes, inside tents) at around sundown. I bring an extra sheet to put overtop of all bedding during the day, to act as a dewcatcher. At night, I peel the damp sheet of, and we go to bed in dry bedding. The same principle can be used to help keep clothing dryer. Cheers, -- Angharad/Terry From: SADV153 at uabdpo.dpo.uab.edu Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Need Pennsic Info - bring camper? Date: Fri, 28 Apr 95 08:28:41 CDT Organization: University of Alabama at Birmingham jtn at cse.uconn.EDU (J. Terry Nutter) writes: ->Take some plywood. Cut it into strips: at least two and up to four of the ->length of your bed, ditto of the width, and all as wide as you want your ->bed to be high. Notch them so that you can set the long pieces on edge ->with the notches up, and slide the shorter ones in across them to lock into ->a frame. Then cut a couple of sheets each to be the length of your bed ->and half the width. Slap them on top of the frame, and voila, you have a ->platform on which to put a futon (or for that matter, an air mattress). -> ->BTW: many people complain of damp bedding. I have found that the usual ->problem is dew, which collects (yes, inside tents) at around sundown. I ->bring an extra sheet to put overtop of all bedding during the day, to act ->as a dewcatcher. At night, I peel the damp sheet of, and we go to bed in ->dry bedding. -> ->The same principle can be used to help keep clothing dryer. This works. We also used a futon raised on a platform (really makeshift...we took two flat wooden boxes that we happened to have on hand, put a piece of plywood on top of them, and the futon on top of that), and it stayed dry and comfortable. We also covered our bedding every day with plastic sheeting, which we hid under an extra sheet or a couple of cloaks for aesthetics. We never had a problem with damp bedding. (Damp everything else, yes, but *not* damp bedding!) Jamelyn From: powers at cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Need Pennsic Info - bring camper? Date: 28 Apr 1995 10:25:47 -0400 Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science A firm believer in the advantages of decadence during long camps; our bed was built into the post&beam frame of our tent. it was fairly high off the ground, 30"? and used slats to support our futon. As to dampness: we covered it with a "flokati" (sp), which is essentially ax8' "woven" fleece, (think of a fairly coarse very long staple sheepskin made without killing the sheep for its hide) I never noticed dampness and if I sometimes dreamed of being asked to recant whilst being "pressed" twas doubtless due to the effects of green mead..... BTW our tent was 8x12" had a raised floor and the height at the top of the wall was 6', ridgepole was 10'. It cost us about $100 and will be in use for many Pennsics to come; though I do tinker with the frame a lot. Dry, comfortable, warm or cool as needed, (can raise the wall cloths); well worth the effort to build it. wilelm the smith who will probably use his smaller "viking condo" this year since his wife will not be attending, (8'x9', 3' wall 10" ridgepole, it cost $30 to make) From: powers at cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Mounts for a knight Date: 29 Aug 1995 16:59:43 -0400 Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science >>"they were shorter in those days weren't they" > >Yes, I have some offhand confirmation of this fact >I had the opportunity to see the Mannerheim museum in Helsinki, >where peices of Medevil (?) furniture where on display. Some adult-sized >beds of the day were scarce five feet long. The carriage overheads where >also coresponsively lowered. It may not be documented proof, but I hope >it helps. >Vanyev Betzina of Kumpania Kaldaresh Vanyev; I too have seen short beds in several museums in Europe and America. I have also seen documentation that they were used "sitting up" due to a belief that sleeping lying down was injurous to one's health. (I have also seen beds that were gigantic and did not decide that medieval folk were 8'+) I would not accept this as offhand confirmation. But if you are ever in the low countries, visit Muiderslot, (near Naarden). wilelm the smith who has a 8' bed at Pennsic because it is built into the frame of an 8' wide tent. Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Mounts for a knight From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 95 12:28:21 EDT vanyevbtz at aol.com (Vanyev Btz) writes: > in response to your earlier message > > >"they were shorter in those days weren't they" > > Yes, I have some offhand confirmation of this fact > I had the opportunity to see the Mannerheim museum in Helsinki, > where peices of Medevil (?) furniture where on display. Some adult-sized > beds of the day were scarce five feet long. The carriage overheads where > also coresponsively lowered. It may not be documented proof, but I hope > it helps. > > Vanyev Betzina of Kumpania Kaldaresh (and King of the Gypsies.. although > of which Gypsies I am still uncertain....) Respected friends: Most beds were shorter in Northern Europe for a very simple reason: people usually slept partially sitting up. (If you've ever lived through a bad sinus attack without medication, you know why.) Shorter carriages may have an equally simple solution; people weren't clearing roads as well as they did later. More lower branches, more opportunities for a high carriage to come to grief... I don't know if it's _the_ reason, but it might be one of them. }:-> Yours in service to the Society- (Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk R.S.F. Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf C.O.L. SCA Una Wicca (That Pict) From: Patsy Dunham Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period Tents Date: 26 Aug 1996 16:33:12 GMT Organization: City of Eugene, Eugene OR USA brettwi at ix.netcom.com(Brett Williams) wrote: > (snip) >The tourney bed served me as my bed for more than ten years until its >retirement. I personally am not fond of rope beds as the rope tends to >stretch during the night, rolling both occupants to the center...ick. I >make no pretensions as to its period-ish nature (it has none), but >under all its dressing one cannot see the bed itself. Tolerable. > >ciorstan At that, it (slotted plywood pieces) may have more pretensions to period-ness than rope, depending on _your_ period. We have been using a mortise-and-tenon peg-thru Norse bedframe for about the last 12 years. Based on the bedstead from the Oseberg (I think-- the freestanding one you usually see in the books.) (The camp bed finally became the camp bed only when himself finished an oak version (for home) just before 3YC). It breaks down into pieces the largest of which are either the 7' 1x12 side rails, or the 4x4" x30" foot posts, or the 52" 1x18" headboard, all the other pieces are smaller than those, including the carved headposts. Himself (the woodworker) gnashes his teeth every time rope-strung beds come up... his feeling (based on research I'm not very familiar with) is that the common use of rope "mattresses" is probably considerably out-of-period, more like the period of Colonial America. Chimene (I expect we'll have pictures of the bed available on the homepages soon, the scanner arrived this weekend) http://users.aol.com/gerekr/Ravensgard.html [Submitted by: Donna Hrynkiw ] Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 12:51:28 -0000 From: "J.D. Ray" Cc: steps at antir.sca.org Subject: Slat bed (very long) Valen here: At home we have a slat bed that m'lady and I purchased supplies for, designed, and constructed all in a few hours one evening. As you can imagine, the workmanship isn't top notch, but I don't mind showing it to people. I guess that puts it "somewhere in the middle" of quality. I tried to do an ASCII drawing of the thing, but it didn't work out. Lend me your imaginations for a second (scratch paper is allowed)... Take a couple of 2x4s (really 1.5" by 3.5") that were the same length as our mattress and attached 1x6 (.75" by 5.5") pine boards to them in such a fashion that .5" of the pine board stuck out to one side of the 2x4 and 1.5" stuck out the other side: ####### <-- 2x4 ########### <-- 1x6 Stand the two of these assemblied up (flip one over and end-for-end) so that the .5" lip is sticking up and the 2x4s are facing each other. These are the sideboards. Next, cut two 2x4s the same length that your mattress is wide. These will be the legs of the bed. Stand them on edge and cut notches in the top of each end that are 1.5" by 1.5" to form a sort of an L: ********************* Top edge ********************* ******************** ******************************** ******************************* ****************************** ******************************* ******************************** With the legs about half the distance apart that the mattress is long, set the sideboards into the notches so that 1/4 of the length of the sideboard is on either side of each leg. That doesn't sound right, but you'll probably get the picture. Top view attempt: | | | | | | |############################### | | | | | | | | | | | |############################### | | | | | | | Next, cut another 2x4 that is the same length as the sideboards. Lay it up against one of the sideboards and mark it on either side of the legs. These marks should be the guides to cut a 1.5" x 1.5" notch in one edge of the board. This is the center support. Turn the center support with the notches down and center it on the legs between the side boards. For a permanent encampment (your bedroom), screw the whole mess together with angle brackets and such from the inside (on our bed, no screws show from the outside). For a portable bed, figure out how to peg it together, as screwing and unscrewing (don't go there) the brackets will eventually lead to holes unsuitable to hold the screws (I SAID, don't go there!). Cut slats that are .5" thick and as long as the distance between the top lips of the sideboards. If you made all of your cuts correctly, all should sit level and square. For additional decoration, cut end-caps of 1x6 pine that are 1.5" longer than the legs. They should go where a headboard and footboard would go. You may notice that the legs support the sideboards and optional endcaps .5" off the ground. This is to combat mildew collection underneath by allowing airflow. The bed that we have at home has supported the two of us (totaling about 350 lbs) for most of five years, with the one-time addition of a 200 lb. friend that was staying over who decided to wake us up one morning by diving into the middle of our bed. We were not amused, but the bedframe held. Anyhow, happy building. I, too, look longingly at Viking beds and hope to make one soon. Valen. From: nerak at aol.com (Nerak) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: slat Vs. rope Date: 7 Mar 1997 04:58:05 GMT My lord and I use 1/2" plywood for the deck of our queen size bed. It is the same construction as a rope bed. The plywood deck is cut into two almost square pieces which fit on the bottom of our van, or on the roof. And actually assist in organizing the packing of some of our other stuff. We also made a bed for a chirgeon friend and cut the deck into three pieces, and then cut holes in them so they could be used as back boards for transporting an injured person. Nerak la Tisserande Nerak at aol.com From: moondrgn at bga.com (Chris and Elisabeth Zakes) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Futons for rope/slat beds Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 23:18:08 GMT sthomas728 at aol.com (SThomas728) wrote: >I have read repeatedly of good gentles who have slat/rope beds and cover >it with a futon. What type of futon is this? What is it filled with? I >know my futon at home is a million pounds and equally bulky and could >never get to an event with me. What do you use? Also, what are >alternatives? I have heard blow up mattresses. How do they fare? And are >there any other ideas? I've never worked with a futon, so I can't comment. As for inflatables, eventually, they will develop a leak. Usually at the most inconvenient time possible (ours did the second night of the Twenty-Year Celebration, for example.) They're also a nuisance to blow up, unless you get the self-inflating kind. >Lastly, I would like to hear a comparison of slat to rope beds, on all >fronts. Not just the feel, but also the ease of set-up, transport, >materials costs, labor involved, etc. How do they each break down? Is it >possible to hinge the side-rails so they aren't 6 feet long? Or does that >weaken the frame? What we use, is an actual bed: one of those with head and foot boards, metal support rails on the sides, slats and a piece of plywood (hinged in 3 pieces) for the frame, and a regular foam mattress (no box spring). It's up out of the wet, there's lots of room underneath to store gear, or hide monsters. Setup time is 10 minutes or less: slot the metal rails into the head and foot boards, set out the slats, unfold the plywood and lay it on top of the slats, put the mattress down, put on a sheet and bedding, and go to sleep. The comfort level falls into the "decadent" category, which I can't say for inflatables, or foam-on-the-ground. It *is* a bit bulky, but will fit into the back of a van, or a 4x6 U-Haul trailer, along with our regular SCA gear. They also need a big tent, at least 10x16. I've never worked with a rope bed, but I'm told they tend to sag in the middle, like a hammock. -Tivar Moondragon Ansteorra From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Futons for rope/slat beds Date: 2 Mar 1997 03:29:45 GMT Organization: University of California, Berkeley SThomas728 (sthomas728 at aol.com) wrote: : I have read repeatedly of good gentles who have slat/rope beds and cover : it with a futon. What type of futon is this? What is it filled with? I : know my futon at home is a million pounds and equally bulky and could : never get to an event with me. What do you use? Also, what are : alternatives? I have heard blow up mattresses. How do they fare? And are : there any other ideas? I have a rope-frame bed -- I use a good old-fashioned feather-bed for the mattress. (The ropes themselves get covered with a sheet of something stiff enough to keep the featherbed from pooching through. I happen to use a sheared sheepskin rug that I picked up cheap, but a piece of old carpeting would work as well.) The advantage of a featherbed over a foam mattress or futon is not only lighter weight but a smaller packing space. The trick is to have a store nearby like Whole Earth Access that occasionally sells featherbeds for around $50-60. : Lastly, I would like to hear a comparison of slat to rope beds, on all : fronts. Not just the feel, but also the ease of set-up, transport, : materials costs, labor involved, etc. How do they each break down? Is it : possible to hinge the side-rails so they aren't 6 feet long? Or does that : weaken the frame? I've never done a slat bed for camping, so it's hard to say. My rope bed stores with the ropes all in place (loosened slightly to take the frame apart) and on a good day goes together in about 10 minutes. It does require a roof rack for the bundle of rails and rope, though. Materials are relatively cheap: about 18 ft. worth of 2x4 and about 8 ft. worth of 4x4 (for the legs) and a certain amount of carpentry skill. I did a different model with a permanently-fixed frame that hinged in the middle of the long sides for packing. (The hinges were on the _bottom_ of the side boards, so that the ends folded _down_ for packing but downward pressure on the bed did not cause folding.) It was ok for sleeping in quietly, but I wouldn't have wanted to do anything ... um ... athletic in it, as the side rails had impaired lateral stability. Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn From: inkheads at ll.net (Dave and Lisa Schwarz) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Futons for rope/slat beds Date: 2 Mar 1997 06:43:02 GMT Organization: Protocol Communications, Inc. moondrgn at bga.com wrote: > sthomas728 at aol.com (SThomas728) wrote: > > >I have read repeatedly of good gentles who have slat/rope beds and cover > >it with a futon. What type of futon is this? What is it filled with? I > >know my futon at home is a million pounds and equally bulky and could > >never get to an event with me. What do you use? Also, what are > >alternatives? I have heard blow up mattresses. How do they fare? And are > >there any other ideas? Tivor Moodragon replied: > I've never worked with a futon, so I can't comment. As for > inflatables, eventually, they will develop a leak. Usually at the most > inconvenient time possible (ours did the second night of the > Twenty-Year Celebration, for example.) They're also a nuisance to blow > up, unless you get the self-inflating kind. The self-inflating matresses known as Therma-Rests are very good, and the Luxury Edition falls into the *decadent* category, as well. Therma Rests are self-inflating, small enough to pack easily and the new ones are very durable. We use ours camping in the Boundary Waters of northern Minnesota. They hold up to the exposed granite (otherwise known as ground, at least up there) very, very well. No leaks, no trouble. And we use 'em hard. Thay cost $50 to $70 a piece, depending on model, Luxury Edition is at the top end. Don't be fooled by their thin, uncomfortable look. Try them at the merchants and you'll be convinced. DO NOT, however, buy cheaper imitations. I know someone who did and experienced continually bad sleep followed up finally by a hissing sound of air rushing out. They bought Therma-Rests next time and were pleased. To be completely at ease in camp, get or make a coupler for the mattresses. This consists of a standard bedsheet with pockets sewn in to fit two Therma-Rests underneath. It also has a zipper sewn all the way around that links to an opened sleeping bag. Togetherness! This system not only allows conjugal sleeping, but also keeps the mattresses from sliding and eliminates the need for one sleeping bag (assuming you usually need two.) If you're opposed to sleeping bags _OOP_, just pile blankets on top. No, I do not sell Therma-Rests, nor does anyone I know. They are simply a wonderful product, rare in the mundane world. Brecc of Fearghael From: gerekr at aol.com (Gerekr) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Futons for rope/slat beds Date: 2 Mar 1997 09:44:49 GMT I use a cotton futon on my Norse bed. I'd like to use a down mattress like they are believed to have done originally but they are expensive. The air mattresses are right out: they always leak, at least my three attempts always did. I like my slat bed, in fact I built one for use at home as well. Transport hasn't been a problem but then I have a dedicated eight foot trailer to haul my Society stuff in. I did modify the period original so that the upright isn't riveted to the side rail though. A trailer is not a ship. Master Gerek From: moondrgn at bga.com (Chris and Elisabeth Zakes) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Futons for rope/slat beds Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 00:14:58 GMT inkheads at ll.net (Dave and Lisa Schwarz) wrote: > moondrgn at bga.com wrote: >> sthomas728 at aol.com (SThomas728) wrote: >> >> >I have read repeatedly of good gentles who have slat/rope beds and cover >> >it with a futon. What type of futon is this? What is it filled with? I >> >know my futon at home is a million pounds and equally bulky and could >> >never get to an event with me. What do you use? Also, what are >> >alternatives? I have heard blow up mattresses. How do they fare? And are >> >there any other ideas? >Tivor Moodragon replied: >> I've never worked with a futon, so I can't comment. As for >> inflatables, eventually, they will develop a leak. Usually at the most >> inconvenient time possible (ours did the second night of the >> Twenty-Year Celebration, for example.) They're also a nuisance to blow >> up, unless you get the self-inflating kind. > The self-inflating matresses known as Therma-Rests are very good, and >the Luxury Edition falls into the *decadent* category, as well. Actually, the bed we used just before going to the "real" bed *was* a pair of Thermarests. They *are* comfortable, and waiting five minutes for them to self-inflate certainly beats 45 minutes blowing up a 2-person air mattress. After a couple of years, they *did* develop leaks. It's probably just one of the hazards of living in Ansteorra, where far too many of the plants have spikes, and even the animals wear armor. -Tivar Moondragon From: parkerd at mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA (Diana Parker) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Futons for rope/slat beds Date: 2 Mar 1997 16:56:23 -0500 Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Chris and Elisabeth Zakes wrote: >>alternatives? I have heard blow up mattresses. How do they fare? And are > >I've never worked with a futon, so I can't comment. As for >inflatables, eventually, they will develop a leak. Usually at the most >inconvenient time possible (ours did the second night of the >Twenty-Year Celebration, for example.) They're also a nuisance to blow >up, unless you get the self-inflating kind. I bought a double bed air mattress instead of an air bed or inflatable bed. It started out on the ground, moved to pallets, and finally up as the mattress for our slat bed. The slat bed was and is the single greatest improvement in comfort, ease & convenience. I've never tried to build a rope bed. The few I've laid down on sagged in the middle unless tightened daily, a problem the slat bed doesn't suffer. The rubberized canvas for the air mattress is still going strong after 12 years, where my friends vinyl air beds are replaced every season or two. In retrospect, it was well worth paying $45 instead of $20. Inflating it has been problematic. After mouth-blowing way to many times, we now leave the air-pump (car powered) in the car between events so we don't forget to bring it. Actually, at this point, its longevity is becoming a problem, as I'd really like to order one of those feather mattresses from "Domestications" catalogue, and can't quite justify it to myself because the air mattress works so well. Tabitha -- Diana Parker parkerd at mcmaster.ca (905) 525-9140 (x24282) CUC - 201 Security Services McMaster University Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Futons for rope/slat beds From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 97 09:10:46 EST sthomas728 at aol.com (SThomas728) writes: (snip) > Lastly, I would like to hear a comparison of slat to rope beds, on all > fronts. Not just the feel, but also the ease of set-up, transport, > materials costs, labor involved, etc. How do they each break down? Is it > possible to hinge the side-rails so they aren't 6 feet long? Or does that > weaken the frame? > > Genevieve The side rails can be hinged, if the hinges are on what will be the _outside_ of the rail for a slat bed, on the _inside_ for a rope bed. Yes, it does weaken the frame. Because the side rails can be slightly thinner on a slat bed, it's not that much heavier than a rope bed. It is, however, from 3 to 8 cubic feet more bulk, depending on how closely you space the slats. Slats beds are easier to make, easier to set up (much!), usually cost more (rope is cheap). Their real downsides are weight, storage space, and the fact that they _don't _ feel like a real mattress. Rope beds are cheaper, stow smaller, are somewhat lighter, and significantly more springy- _If_ you know how to weave the ropes at set-up and tighten them every evening. They are, however, immensely more difficult to set up, and have about half as long a working life-span. The tension of the ropes kills the bed eventually. For both, I think the most comfy mattress is a straw tick. If you can obtain straw on-site, it's the nicest bed of all and very easy to transport- the straw stays, only the bag goes. On other mattresses I have no opinion; featherbeds, however, are lovely if you have the cubage to bring them. Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf Una Wicca (That Pict) (Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk, R.S.F. From: wmdcarr at aol.com (WMDCARR) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Futons for rope/slat beds Date: 3 Mar 1997 09:44:57 GMT << The self-inflating matresses known as Therma-Rests are very good, and the Luxury Edition falls into the *decadent* category, as well. No, I do not sell Therma-Rests, nor does anyone I know. They are simply a wonderful product, rare in the mundane world. Brecc of Fearghael>> I have a somewhat dissenting opinion here. First of all, I assume that by this time the topic has drifted from rope beds, as it would be silly to own a period bed only to put a screamingly modern matress on it. I use a Therma-Rest for mundane backpacking, and in this role it is indeed wonderful. To expand a bit on what they are, they are essentially a sheet of open-celled foam sandwiched within a tough air-tight envelope equipped with a valve. The foam's default state is expanded, so rather than blowing it up for use, you squeeze the air out to transport it. Their wonderfulness (wonderfulosity??) derives from their portability and lightness, which are premium considerations if you have to carry the blasted things on your back for miles at a time, plus their durability and convenience. These fine qualities being stipulated, I think Brecc overstates their comfort: I would rate it as merely pretty good. On a proper backpacking trip one has probably hiked oneself into exhaustion, so pretty good is plenty good enough. (In all fairness, I haven't used the luxury edition, on the theory that the extra weight and bulk are both unnecessary and undesirable when hiking.) The point is that SCA camping has different imperatives, and weight generally isn't one of them. If you want a non-period matress I would recommend a simple slab of open-celled foam. It is signficantly cheaper, likely to be more comfortable, and is useful at home when you have a mob crashing with you. Rouland Carre Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Futons for rope/slat beds From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 97 06:58:10 EST gerekr at aol.com (Gerekr) writes: > Alizaunde wrote: > > Slats beds are easier to make, easier to set up (much!), > >usually cost more (rope is cheap). Their real downsides are weight, > >storage space, and the fact that they _don't _ feel like a real > >mattress. > > All things are relative. It depends what you are making your bed out of > and what design you are using. Mine are 1. clear fir, 2. pine and 3. > oak. Moderate in price if you know where to look for materials. The > design however is probably not easier to make with interlocking mortices > and carved headboards and shaped footposts with complicated morticing > arrangements. > > Your other comments make me wonder if we're talking about the same kinds > of beds. My fir bed (the camp version) is quite reasonable in weight. > Not certain exactly how much it weighs but my wife and I can easily pick > it up and move it around. As for it not feeling like a real mattress, bed > frames are not mattresses, thats what you put on top. If you mean they're > not springy, you should talk to my 4 year old. He's constantly bouncing > on his bed and mine. Perhaps there has been some problem with the > versions you've seen. > > Master Gerek Compared to a rope bed of the same dimensions made with the same kind of wood, a slat bed will be somewhere between slightly more bulky (3 narrow slats) to significantly more bulky (solid floor.) With 3 narrow slats, it would weigh no more, and perhaps less; solid-floored, it would weigh appreciably more. However, If you made one each to the same dimensions, either the rope bed would be too light and have severe bowing problems, or the rope bed would be significantly over-engineered and have a lot of unneeded weight and bulk. So the weight dichotomy could actually swing the other way if the builder really knows his woods and their load-weight ratios. A full-floor, or even half-floor, slat bed is not as springy as a properly tightened rope bed. (I have joint/muscular disease, and can't tolerate less than a half-floor.) Using flexible (thinner) slats helps somewhat, but leaves me with the job of stripping the mattress off and reversing the slats every night. It's still easier for me than tightening a rope bed would be. Conclusion: we're both right. Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf Una Wicca (That Pict) (Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk, R.S.F. From: bronwynmgn at aol.com Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Futons for rope/slat beds Date: 3 Mar 1997 22:13:12 GMT inkheads at ll.net (Dave and Lisa Schwarz) writes: > The self-inflating matresses known as Therma-Rests are very good, and >the Luxury Edition falls into the *decadent* category, as well. > Therma Rests are self-inflating... My father and I both have found that our Thermarests will not self-inflate if they are stored deflated when not being used. However, since they are mostly foam, they are a heck of a lot easier to blow up than a regular air mattress. My lord and I use two of them, placed on top of a blanket to prevent sliding, and then covered with several layers of thick sheepskins. This bed is just as soft as my regular bed at home, and sleeping directly on sheepskin is something we both find very comfortable. It isn't hot on a hot night, but very cosy on a cold one. Bronwyn Morgan o Aberystwyth From: gerekr at aol.com (Gerekr) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Futons for rope/slat beds Date: 3 Mar 1997 23:19:26 GMT Alizaunde wrote: > Compared to a rope bed of the same dimensions made with the >same kind of wood, a slat bed will be somewhere between slightly >more bulky (3 narrow slats) to significantly more bulky (solid floor.) > With 3 narrow slats, it would weigh no more, and perhaps less; >solid-floored, it would weigh appreciably more. Also with respect, my Lady :-): I use about seven 1"x 4" slats with about 50% coverage. > However, If you made one each to the same dimensions, either >the rope bed would be too light and have severe bowing problems, or >the rope bed would be significantly over-engineered and have a lot >of unneeded weight and bulk. So the weight dichotomy could actually >swing the other way if the builder really knows his woods and their >load-weight ratios. The rope beds I've seen (very few) required 2"x material. I would have thought this would have been the minimal that would have been required to prevent bowing. My slat beds use only 1"x material except for the footposts. > A full-floor, or even half-floor, slat bed is not as springy >as a properly tightened rope bed. (I have joint/muscular disease, and >can't tolerate less than a half-floor.) Using flexible (thinner) slats >helps somewhat, but leaves me with the job of stripping the mattress >off and reversing the slats every night. It's still easier for me than >tightening a rope bed would be. I must admit to cheating slightly. On wide softwood beds I usually extend the mortises beyond the side rails and peg them. The slats on my camp bed have never bowed in 12 years of use, even during the four years we slept on it daily. > Conclusion: we're both right. Oh I don't think there's right or wrong involved just different experience. Master Gerek From: tyrca at aol.com (Tyrca) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Futons for rope/slat beds Date: 4 Mar 1997 16:17:34 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com About 3 years ago, I told my lord that I would not go to a camping event again if I had to sleep on the ground. It is not the sleeping, but trying to get up off it in the morning that became so unpleasant. He built us a very nice rope Queen-size bed, and we have a double foam-core futon to put on it. I like his renovation of rope beds, he put slots on the top of the rail and pegs on the bottom, and we "speed-lace" our rope bed in about 10 minutes. No threading that rope through hundreds of holes, and it stays fairly tight at a weekend event, and we tighten once or maybe twice at longer things. We have three large feather pillows that we lay down the center of the rope before putting the mattress on top, and they fill the sag that rope normally has. One problem I have with air matresses is that when my lord moves, I wake up. Also, air matresses do not warm up. I usually get cold and stiff sleeping on one, and my hip (I usually sleep on my side) screams at me. I would not trade anything for my bulky futon. We also built a rope bunk bed for our two children. The top bunk is only 3 feet high, and the bottom one only 8 inches off the ground, but the kids love it. They sleep as well as (and sometimes better than) at home. On their beds, we simply have a couple of layers of open cell foam in a bag I made from a double sheet. About my rope bed, the ropes hold it so tight that it doesn't creak or move _at all_. In an environment where the walls are one or two layers of cloth (ie. practically invisible sound-wise) it is nice to be able to conduct "personal activities" without advertising to the neighbors. Air matresses tend to wheeze at inopportune moments if you are at all enthusiastic. We live in Northern Ansteorra, in a kakhi and purple pavillion (that I sewed myself). If we are ever at the same event, you are welcome to come and see our living arrangements. We are pleased with them. Tyrca Ivarsdottir,oleander, AoA, OPN, ASTA From: DDFr at Best.com (David Friedman) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Futons for rope/slat beds Date: 5 Mar 1997 08:28:49 GMT Organization: School of Law, Santa Clara University We used a rope bed for some years (with a futon on top), then switched to a slat bed. The advantages were: 1. The rope bed tended to sag in the middle--especially if you didn't keep tightening it. 2. The rope bed was a pain to set up--even though it was designed so you could take it down without unlacing the ropes. The problem was tightening the ropes. Perhaps someone else has come up with a good solution, but I didn't. I don't think the difference in weight and bulk is all that great, since the rope bed uses 2x and the slat bed 1x. Incidentally, the slat bed is a canopy bed. We still haven't put a canopy on it (or on the small one I built first for my daughter), but the frame is very useful for hanging wet garments on when we go to bed, hanging a belt or purse from, ... . David/Cariadoc From: teufel at mail.erols.com (Teufel) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Futons for rope/slat beds Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 00:22:03 GMT sthomas728 at aol.com (SThomas728) wrote: >I have read repeatedly of good gentles who have slat/rope beds and cover >it with a futon. snip > ease of set-up, transport, >materials costs, labor involved, etc. How do they each break down? Is it >possible to hinge the side-rails so they aren't 6 feet long? Or does that >weaken the frame? >Genevieve well, my two cents on the matter. I made a rope bed for myself and my significant other about a year ago, and it quickly replaced the regular bed that we were using. Description: Frame is made from 2x6s, 5 foot by 6 foot. 2x6 legs at each corner, each 5 foot high. Carridge bolts are used for attaching everything together. Rope is a 3/8 woven nylon. This is then covered with a cotton-batting filled futon. Ease of setup: 5 (about an hour on site for one person, from complete disassembly to strung. Our 16x24 foot pavilion takes two people 2 hours.) Comfort: 8 (futon really helps here) Weight: 6 (about as heavy as my armor box. YMMV.) Transport: 5 (we have a trailer, and we made canvas bags for everything to go into. One bag for frame, One bag for legs, One bag for Rope. One person can carry everything.) I wanted to make a poster-frame rope bed, that could hold as much weight as I could put on it (I know it has held more than a thousand pounds at once), so I over-engineered the frame. Replacing the legs with 2x4s 18" long would probably cut the weight by 1/3. All in all, it took about a day to build, (all of the cutting and drilling) using power tools, and some fancy finishing. I didn't find it to be a problem. As a side note, some friends built a slat bed the same day, so as to take advantage of all the tools convieniently laid out for them. Took about the same time to make the slat bed (with the exception that they made short legs for theirs. Didn't need the room to put 2 armor boxes underneath, I guess.) Another friend of ours built a single size rope bed with the sides cut in half and lap jointed, so that he could break the whole thing down into 10 boards, each 3 foot long. Worked well for him. Lightweight and convienient. Fine so long as you don't expect company. The Warnings: The rope bed WILL sag. Nothing you can do about it. After the first few time of using it, the sag will be minimalized, and a tightening of once a week will suffice. If your only going to use it for a night or two, you probably won't even notice it. The rope bed WILL creak. Nylon rope seems to minimalize this, and keeping the bolts tightened helps A LOT. Try to remember this BEFORE having company over. :) All that said and done, I refuse to give up my rope bed. I DO plan on making one out of oak and doing some fancy carving on it, but until then I won't go back to the old mattress bed. To anyone interested, If you e-mail me a fax #, I would be happy to send the plans I made for my rope bed. It really wasn't that difficult, and should be pretty self-evident on how it's made. Good Luck, Frederich Von Teufel MKA Neil Brady Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: Paul Kay Subject: Re: Futons for rope/slat beds Organization: N&SM Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 18:47:31 GMT Lyle Gray wrote: > Blues (Blues at mail.ic.net) wrote: > : David Freedman wrote: > : > 2. The rope bed was a pain to set up--even though it was designed so you > : > could take it down without unlacing the ropes. The problem was tightening > : > the ropes. Perhaps someone else has come up with a good solution, but I > : > didn't. > > : One solution I came up with, but never tried, was to use a few wooden > : wedges on the outside of the frame between the frame and the rope. When > : the ropes slacken, drive the wedges in further. Obviously, this would > : only work up to a point. > > I used a special tool called a "key" for tightening the ropes, which uses > torque to tighten the individual ropes. It's similar in design to the key > used for opening a sardine can. I can diagram it and describe it's use for > people who are interested (the tool came with the rope bed -- which was > stored > in my parents' attic -- along with extra legs that support the center of the > bed). Great! Here I was about to gloat, and you ruin it! :*) Guess what I got for Christmas? I had seen and heard about bed keys since I was a kid visiting Greenfield Village/Henry Ford Museum and looking for them since building my rope bed. I had not been able to find them in years of looking. My sister asked someone at Plimouth Plantation about them and they offered to make some. I now can tighten my bed without moving it away from the tent wall! As to the original question - I have seen expensive air matresses grated to death by rope beds. I use a medium weight futon (ca 50 lbs - heavier than the 4 inch "summer" futon, but I forget how much thicker). As it got older, the spacing on the ropes became more noticable. You could feel them through the matress. The quick fix? I made a hybrid. I put a couple or 3 lath strips onto the rope at the level of my wife's and my torso - where most of the weight is on the ropes, and the sleeping got better. It also reduced the "Deep valley bed" effect, and I kind of miss her rolling into me during the night. The next version will be longer, though. I am just a _bit_ too big for the full size matress and need to add length to keep my feet off of the foot board. (or is that why it is called a footboard? :*)) It will also probably have a canopy on posts so we can integrate the bug cloth into the bed. My wife is a Caidan, after all. (I think she married me for my decadent camp gear :*)) Bart the Bewildered Carillion, East -- Paul Kay NCR Lincroft, NJ paul.kay at lincroftnj.ncr.com From: tjustus at sprynet.com (Tom Justus) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Futons for rope/slat beds Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 06:00:57 GMT If you decide to take a futon camping, be sure to elevate it off the floor-- a sheet of plywood and some 4x4s will do-- the heavy cotton of the futon will soak up water like a, well, wick, and the mess can mildew quickly, especially in Pennsic weather. I don't speak from experience (I've got a feather bed) but I've seen it happen to several others. Tracy Justus Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: slat Vs. rope From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 97 07:20:47 EST Respected friends: ...In the reply I just posted, I meant to say: "However, if you made one of each to the same dimensions, either the rope bed would be too light and have severe bowing problems, or the _____slat_____ bed would be over-engineered... Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf Una Wicca (That Pict) (Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk, R.S.F. Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 08:07:42 -0500 (EST) From: Diana Parker To: "Mark S. Harris" Subject: Re: Futons for rope/slat beds On Sat, 8 Mar 1997, Mark S. Harris wrote: > > events so we don't forget to bring it. Actually, at this point, its > > longevity is becoming a problem, as I'd really like to order one of those > > feather mattresses from "Domestications" catalogue, and can't quite > > justify it to myself because the air mattress works so well. > > Do you have an address/email/phone for them? I'd like to look into > these feather mattresses. Do you know what the approx. cost is? "Domestications" is a US catalogue company. I'm at work right now so I don't have a copy of the catalog. If you call 1-800-555-1212 (from within the US) you can ask information for their number. If you are not in the US, send me a return email & I will look up their ordering address when I get home. From memory, the feather mattress was either $99 or $150 US. I can't quite remember which, but it was low enough to justify for my hobby :) I have ordered sheets and linens & such from them in the past and have no difficulty recommending them for their prices and their quality. Tabitha ---------------- Diana Parker parkerd at mcmaster.ca (905) 525-9140 (x24282) CUC - 201 Security Services McMaster University From: "Dennis O'Connor" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: MATRESSES for SCAdian events, WAS: Futons for , Rope/Slat Beds Date: 12 Mar 1997 20:44:01 -0700 Carol J. Cannon wrote : My question is: Has anyone tried those air : mattress things that are supposed to be as sturdy and comfy : as water beds? And if so, what was your experience? They eventually develop leaks when used for camping. At least, every one I have used does. But now I have adopted pick-up truck camping, and now carry two benches (30"x78") covered with a sandwich of several densities of foam, over which I throw horse hides and blankets. It's more like the way a 13th C. Mongol would live than most other beds, except they wouldn't have foam, and used (and still use) much shorter benches than I do. I have to be honest: we don't really use a pickup truck to carry our camp gear. We use a pickup truck and a minivan. There are two of us, after all. Ah, roughing it ! (That's when we forget the two-wheel dolly.) :-) -- Dennis O'Connor dmoc at primenet.com From: Nils K Hammer Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: rope/slat beds Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 16:44:17 -0500 Organization: Computer Science Department, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA I got a surprise recently when a friend asked about making a copy of my "pickle bucket" bed. After making my tent, I was not up to making a proper bed, so I used a 4'x 6'4" piece of plywood. I trimmed off the corner points and bored 4 corner holes. The wood straps easily to the top of my station wagon. I put the bed up on 4 pickle buckets leftover from unfinished armour and tie the corners to tent stakes. My foam bed pad is a bit too thin, but heck, the thing was free. I did much messing with stacking foam blocks on top of the buckets to raise it enough to fit tall storage bins, but gave up on that. Nils K. Hammer From: ejpiii at delphi.com Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: MATRESSES for SCAdian events, WAS: Futons for , Rope/Slat B Date: Sat, 15 Mar 97 11:01:37 -0500 Carol J. Cannon wrote : My question is: Has anyone tried those air : mattress things that are supposed to be as sturdy and comfy : as water beds? And if so, what was your experience? I do a lot of backpacking (usually in conjunction with Estrella!) and the thing I've found that is most usable is the self inflating foam pad You cabn find these at most camping supply places, or order them. through the mail from Campmor in Paramus NJ. There are any # of other places to get them, but I generally find Campmor to be the least expensive. They really do self inflate, but it helps if you give 3 or 4 good breaths afterward, to firm them up. They really last and are a great deal more abrasion resistant than air mattresses. A few hints, hang them in a closet with the valve open, wash them off gently after each use, and keep seam sealant around just in case. Mine hasn't ever sprung a leak, and it's been on 2 week wilderness hardcore camp trips dozens of times. But the rpair kit is just a couple of ounces, so why not. Since I usually fly to western US events, I find this means that I can carry all I need, instead of renting when I get there. Much easier and far less expensive. Eddward-East Subject: "Viking beds" Date: Sat, 21 Mar 98 13:05:42 MST From: rmhowe To: "Windmasters' Hill Baronial List - The Keep" , Merryrose > For the life of me I can't find a single picture on the WWW of a > slat bed... Magnus? Anyone? > > Hrothgar (Since I often get asked this I am going to cross post.) I have pictures of two Viking slat beds, both are from the Viking ship excavations. One is the large one with the very wide side, post, and head boards carved with the beasts, the other is a smaller (and more practical) bed with shaped posts at the corners and looks more like a single bed. There are some on a very expensive "World of the Vikings" CD ROM ($110) from England too. Some of the Viking books show them quite often. But there are only a couple of survivals. One good book to look in is From Viking to Crusader. One of the existing beds, the small one, has this approximate structure. It took me a while looking at it to figure out the reason the slats were the way they are. Kind of ingenious actually. Primitive springs. The pegged tenon center slat keeps the stretchers from pushing too far apart yet allow it to depress with the others. Make the slat tenon holes a little loose to allow for movement and tilt. You could substitute a tapered dowel for the tusk tenon in the center slat ends and drill the holes (It might even work better that way.). Vikings had rather peculiar wood joints and did not know dovetails. Where the stretchers intersected each other at the corner posts of beds, chests, and chairs each tenon was a half tenon (in height) passing over or under the tenon perpendicular to it. Then there was a dowel that passed through the post and the tenon and reached into the end of the other stretcher above or below its own tenon. _____/Upper tenon end seen on end. _______________________| _ /| _ _|_|_|_| |__|_|_|_|- dowels through cross side stretcher |_|_|_| tenons top and bottom lock joints. ________ | | |_|__|_| slat | O |- dowel through leg and lower tenon _______________________|_____| and into the other stretcher | | | | leg or corner post Tenons passed all the way through the legs or corner posts. For a nicer looking joint let them extend a little and bevel the ends at a 45 degree angle. Makes for easier insertion too. The dowels passing through them locked them in place and reinforced the other stretcher by extending into its end. Center slats are tusk tenoned or pegged at the outside of the stretchers and the shoulders go full width. The rest of the slats are cut a little short on the length of the shoulders where they lie between the bed's stretchers. This gives them spring when weight is applied to the center stretcher and they are depressed. It allows them to move in the holes they pass through. Looking at them from the top you get: exagerated space at shoulders. | | no space ctr. slat |_ _|/ _|__|_ __| _ _|/____ ______________| |____________| | ____| _ |________ _____________| |____________| | leg ||_|| side stretcher | | |______| |___| |___| Tenon end. Pegged tusk tenon Free floating slats only in center slat every few inches allow "spring". holds stretchers together in the middle. It pulls in and depresses with weight and allows the others to spring because of their shorter shoulders. The space between the shoulders and the stretchers allows movement and the tenons slide through the larger mortise holes freely. Trim the sharp corners for your shin's sake. Maybe carving small animal heads on them would be creative. The bed legs are squarish at the top and bottom and in the middle but taper toward the middle from the top and bottom. _________ |_________| \ / I'd trim the upper corners a bit. \_____/ (Less painful that way.) /_____\ ___________| _ | | | | | Upper stretcher passing through leg ___ | |_| | |___| | | ___________| O | Dowell through lower tenon into stretcher |_______| \_____/ / \ /_______\ | | |_________| Bottom length to suit. Bevel base edges. This is actually a fairly good explanation of a Viking Bed. Most Probably made of hardwood. Personally I would put screws up through the solid wood between the holes (mortises) for the tenons to keep them from spitting the side stretchers. Ash has excellent spring qualities to it and strength. If I wanted to take it apart for travel I would make the bed's side stretcher tenons longer and tusk tenon them or make their locking dowells longer and looser for removal. Maybe turn some headed pegs to make them easier to pull. A tusk tenon actually goes rather like this: __ | | | |____ _______________|__|___/__ Tenon angle not quite as sharp. _______________|__|__/___| This is a "tusked" tenon seen | |_/ from the side. Removable for |__| easy disassembly. Angles of the mortise must match that of angled peg. The mortise is the hole. | | _______________| | |__|______ | |___ | View from above stretcher | |___| | (or side of leg) showing a tenon's |__|______| mortise hole, locked by inserting _______________| | angled peg or tapered dowel if a | | drilled hole is used instead. | | M. Magnus Malleus, Atlantia and the GDHorde From: gwynslady at aol.com (Gwyns Lady) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Stuffed Beds Date: 18 Jul 1998 01:56:27 GMT >Greetings. I am looking to make a 4 post slat bed to increase the decadence in >my pavilion(10'x30') and was wondering if anyone could explan to me the art of >making a stuffed bed. Or perhaps any other thoughts on the like. I appreciate >any help. > Eduard von Zarelexis My name by the way is Lord Gwyn O Glan Y Mor. My lady and I camp in the Enchanted grounds at Estrella every year and we have found straw (NOT HAY) beds are the most comfortable and decadently period style bed to sleep on, you're gonna love it!! OK here goes, Determine the size of your bed (single, full, etc...) Take this measurement and add 8" or more depending on how thick you want the final product to be. Imagine if you will, a sandwich style baggie (the kind before ziploc's, with the flap that folds over one end.........get it?(just remember dont include that one single layer that extends beyond the length of the bag.) That's what you're going for. I can explain (maybe?) more if you E-Mail me. Use a good grade unbleached muslin for this and wash it before you sew it. This will close up the gaps inbetween the weave and it looks REAL period. You could use cotton sheeting if you wish but the end result isn't as nice. Remember, you will still need to put a bottom sheet over the matress as the straw does have a tendency to be a little dusty and this will keep it to a minimum. Some other actual period practices include: putting rosemary, or lavender, or other herbs in with the straw. It takes us about 2/3 of a whole bale of STRAW. A bale will run you anywhere from $5-10. You may even be able to set up for delivery of your straw to the site. When the event is over, throw away the straw and fold up you mattress material. Remember also , you'll have to beat down the straw once you get it stuffed into the bag (use a big stick or broomhandle) beat it down a little, test for comfort, add straw if needed, beat down again, repeat. Sounds like hard work but its not. We (at last Estrella) had a group of junior High kids come thru our encampment for a tour and demos and they thought the straw bed was so cool that they all took turns beating on it for us. Ha Ha slave child labour!! I hope this has enlightened you a little and I wish you luck. You will never sleep on anything else!!! You can reach me (Ld Gwyn) at GwynnyPOO at aol.com From: jen-guy at home.com (Jennifer Guy) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Need plans for a portable platform bed Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 01:17:51 GMT On 24 Aug 1998 09:52:25 -0500, celticbard at cyburban.com (Chris Peters) wrote: > Now that PENNSIC has come and gone I am starting my >preparations for next year! I am in need of plans for a good portable >platform bed. I have plans for said in waterbeds but thy aren't quite >as portable. Does anyone have any or a resource on the web that I may >look and start sawdust flying?? Thanks in Advance. A canvas platform bed is comfortable. It offers more support than a rope bed and less rigidity than a wooden platform. Taking your rope bed frame, you use a hemmed canvas rectangle about 6" shorter than the inside measurement of the frame with grommets at intervals corresponding with the frame's rope holes. "Sew" the canvas into the frame with rope, it takes a bit less time than stringing the rope bed did. Your mattress of choice, air, futon, stuffed straw, featherbed, whatever. This is what we're taking next year, with regular king size mattress. From: "Authorized User" Subject: Re: Bedding Ideas Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Date: 30 Dec 1998 06:33:54 -0800 My lord and I also enjoy a straw mattress at Pennsic. We use a large cloth mattress cover. One year, this cover was left behind, but were relieved to find that the K-Mart at the Giant Eagle Plaza has plenty of plastic mattress covers in the bedding department. We were afraid that the plastic wouldn't look "authentic", but since we usually pile a few blankets on the bed anyway (as protection against dust and little pokey bits of straw), the plastic didn't even show. The canvas cover undoubtedly will last longer than any plastic cover, and is certainly more authentic, but I thought it may be helpful to point out a modern alternative to buying and sewing canvas. By the way, the best way I've found to even out the hay in the mattress is to beat it with a pole arm for several minutes, pick it up, shake it, and then beat it again. Repeat several times. Pax, Brunhildr Bryteyes From: Nils K Hammer Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Bedding Ideas Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 18:07:46 -0500 Organization: Computer Science Department, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Since I have not yet recreated the perfect bed from a small fragment of the Atocha wreck _yet_, I use a crude bucket bed. I cut a 1/2" sheet of plywood down to 6'4'' length, clipped off the corners and bored holes in the corners. I take 4x plastic pickle buckets left over from making loaner armour to put the board on. Because the ground is rough, I put a chunk of foam on each bucket to provide leveling. To prevent the bed from flipping over when sitting on the edge, I use little tent stakes to tie down the 4 corners. Of course it needs some kind of matress for comfort. The main purpose of this thing is to fit all my armour, cooler, boots, etc. underneath so there is room to entertain in my 9.5' tent. nils k. hammer nh0g at andrew.cmu.edu From: Tanya Guptill Organization: Sysco Food Services Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Furniture--Rope Bed Plans Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:32:57 -0800 Greetings, good gentles! With all the furniture plans getting posted, I have had several people emailing me requesting a rope bed design. Lord damh'n - ruaidh has a very thorough plan at http://www.lydia.org/~zaphod/sca/ropebed/ Mira Silverlock McKendrick Subject: Leather Air Mattresses in Period. Tent Books Info. Date: Thu, 11 Mar 99 21:34:21 MST From: rmhowe To: medieval-leather at egroups.com Since I mentioned this yesterday, Stefan asked me for more information as to what is in it. It's an interesting Idea so I thought I'd share it with a few folks. Ciba Review 1968/3 Tents (only 48 pages) Published By CIBA Ltd, Basle, Switzerland. Magazine distributed to textile schools and companies. ILL it folks, don't try to buy one. 2. Tents and Camping - Article based on text by Dr. H.-C. Wulff, Kassell, and R. Schwob, Bern. (meaning cities in Switz. I guess.) 12. Nomad tents. 26. Tent Shrines and Palaces 35. Modern Utility Tents - H. Schramm, Paris. 40 United Kingdom: New CIBA Phenol Resin Plant; space; Modern Trends 42. Water-repellent and rotproof finishes for natural cellulose tent fabrics. 43. New CIBA White Scale for evaluating the whiteness of optically brightened fabrics. 47 Selected Terasil Dyes for texturized polyester. 48. New CIBA products. A lot of this is modern production information interspersed with history bits. 888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888 Page 5 has a very interesting very large inflatable mattress illustration. "Inflatable mattresses are not a 20th century innovation. Made of skins and fitted with a bellows, this model was depicted in a 1537 edition of a book on warfare compiled by Flavius Renatus in the late 4th century AD. Graphic Art Collection, F.K. Mathys, Basle." (Looks to be at least 6' by 6' (kingsize) and has two landsknecht types on it and one in foreground. Seams run from opposite corners and cross at the middle. Kind of like sewing four squares together folded at the outsides of the mattress. There is a simple bellows fitted in the corner of the mattress. Also looks to be a strapped bottle in the foreground, unable to determine if it is supposed to be leather too. Basically round with a long neck and strap to sides.) ________________ |\ /| | \ / | | \ / | | \ / | Best I can do in text. | \ / | Plumps up and sides pull in. | \ / | No stitching on outside. | \ / | Just on X and bound on bellows. | \/ | | /\ | Imagine six feet Square. | / \ | Four Squares sewed together. | / \ | Original Kingsize air mattress. | / \ | Sleeps two. Imagine what you could | / \ | do with one of these. | / \ | Wonder if it could be made of | / \ | canvas and sealed like a currach boat? ___// _____________\| | | | () | Bellows, I presume you'd seal it with a stopper. |____| // Master Magnus Malleus, OL, Atlantia, Great Dark Horde Brother. MKA R.M. Howe, Raleigh, NC, USA Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 13:11:39 -0700 From: DDFr at best.com (David Friedman) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Rope bed question This isn't a direct answer to your question, but I think may be relevant: Some people I know (Roberto, Niccola, Cattalina and Orlando, all in Mirkfaelinn) found a period picture of a rope bed. From their description, it sounds as though: 1. The ropes are on the diagonal. 2. At the foot, the ropes anchor not to the horizontal frame member at the foot but to a cross piece which is attached to the horizontal frame member by a rope wrapped many times around the two pieces. Presumably you tighten the rope net by pulling on that rope, thus pulling the two pieces together with a mechanical advantage of many. 3. The bed shown is for one person. David/Cariadoc From: jpmiaou at aol.com (JPmiaou) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Straw Mattress? Date: 23 Jun 1999 00:49:06 GMT Jennifer asked about a straw mattress: >How long could I use the straw >before I'd have to replace it? Depends on how lumpy a mattress you're willing to put up with. They last for years and years, but after a while, they get very firmly packed near the middle. I speak from experience. I've slept on a 20-year-old straw mattress that had been in daily use for 10 of those years. One caveat: with modern mattresses, a featherbed is an extra luxury. On a straw mattress, a featherbed *really* comes in handy. In answer to another post's question about bugs: if the ticking is good and tight, and the straw was clean to begin with, there shouldn't be a problem with critters. Julia /\ /\ >*.*< Subject: Re: ANST - Rope Beds Date: Mon, 27 Sep 99 07:55:50 MST From: damaris at io.com To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG On Mon, 27 September 1999, "Jesus Cavazos" wrote: > If you don't mind sleeping in separate beds, Army cots from the surplus > store work fine. My wife uses hers when she goes to events and loves it. > > Toshiro Koi We have take two of the spring folding cots and tie them together. Then we lay a sleepbag opened on that to pad frome any possible sharp edges, and put a queen sized airmattress on top. Its very comfy. Damaris of Greenhill Subject: RE: Re: ANST - Rope Beds Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 10:08:06 MST From: auntdwen at ionet.net To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG My Lord Johann and I tried a rope bed, but found that it a.) took up too much room in the tent; and b.) caused us to roll together in the middle of the bed (good for winter, lousey for summer!). His solution was to get a woodworking magazine that had a pattern for a queen sized futon which becomes a couch during the day and a wonderful bed at night. It does require a futon matress (anywhere from $80 - $300) and a means of transporting it. We didn't have any problem putting it in two parts plus mattress in the back of his full sized chevy truck. We now have a trailer and it fits quite well. Baroness Ceridwen of Wizard's Keep Wastelands Subject: ANST - Camp Beds .... was: Rope Beds Date: Mon, 27 Sep 99 14:25:42 MST From: "j'lynn yeates" To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG here's a gem from my house archives that might be of interest in this discussion .... detailed plans for a 10th century norse bed. http://www.dnaco.net/~arundel/bedplan.html it's not a "rope" bed (with the inherent problems others have noted) but a "slat" bed designed for breakdown and portability ... excellent plan details. something like this with a futon or a camping mattress would be great (i sleep on something similar at home - futon on wooden slats) for ease of setup, i would make some changes to the design, stealing some design ideas from my home frame and some other ideas that i've been toying with: .... build the frame using commercial "break-down" fittings that lock in place .... put a simple ledge inside the frame ... attach the slats to a fabric/nylon strap on each end (to space the slats and allow for roll-up). the edges of the assembly sit inside the frame on this ledge ... add a pin at the four corners to lock the assembly in place ... build two wooden chests (drawers even) to serve as supports at head and foot ... gets the frame up off ground, creates storage stape underneath, spreads weight so as not to puncture tent floor. design would setup and breakdown *fast*, store and transport easily. 'wolf Subject: ANST - camp beds ... was: Rope Beds Date: Mon, 27 Sep 99 14:29:51 MST From: "j'lynn yeates" To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG another site for norse style travel beds ... http://users.aol.com/prdunham/Gbed.htm this one is even better at the details than the first one i posted ... compplete with detailed cutting plans 'wolf From: David Friedman Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Tips.... Pennsic? Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 07:19:57 GMT We use a peg together four poster slat bed. You can find the design in the current edition of the _Miscellany_. The original idea was to be able to put mosquito netting over it, but we never did. The frame connecting the top of the corner posts is, however, very useful for putting damp clothing over when we come to bed, hanging my belt over, et multae caetera. Some of my Myrkfaelinn friends found a period picture of a rope bed that sounds as if it would be great fun to try to make. The rope is laced diagonally, and one end of the mesh appears to be attached, not to the food of the bed, but to a crosswise piece a little up from the foot. There then appears to be a rope wound around that piece and the foot. Presumably, pulling on that rope tightens the bed, with manyfold mechanical advantage. David/Cariadoc From: bronwynmgn at aol.comnospam (Bronwynmgn) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Tips.... Pennsic? Date: 10 Jun 2000 14:11:45 GMT Leigh Claffey writes: >My "bucket bed" uses 4 pickle buckets as legs. Each has a block of foam on top >for leveling. (Details snipped) My husband was able to get, for free, a trundle bed rame from one of his professors. It has a bolt in the center of the head and footrail, which allows you take it apart and fold each half up (the half of the headrail and footrail fold down against the side rail). We use wooden slats and two pieces of plywood side-by-side, then cover these with thermarest pads and sheepskins. It is very comfortable, and breaks down sufficiently to fit the frame and plywood easily on the roof of the Jeep Cherokee. Everything else fits inside the vehicle. Brangwayna Morgan From: David Friedman Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Period Rope Bed Article Just Webbed Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 22:46:30 -0500 Mistress Niccola sent me the citation for the picture (actually a 13th c. Byzantine ivory) of a period rope bed that I mentioned earlier. It turns out that my school's library has the book, so today I made a child sized version of the bed. Pictures and description are webbed at: http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Articles/rope_bed/rope_bed.htm Both my children want me to make ones for them, so it looks as though the design is a success. It is very easy. Once I had bought the material, actually making the bed took me about half an hour, and Elizabeth and I spent another hour or so putting on the rope. Now all I have to do is linseed oil the wood. Then make two more. -- David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Medieval.html Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 13:29:45 -0400 From: Tom Rettie Newsgroups: rec.org.sca To: Les Berkley Subject: Re: Period Rope Bed Article Just Webbed Les Berkley wrote: > Uh, this is a hard one to ask. Do you know if bedscrews (I mean the > mechanical device, er, you know, not the act of love...) are pre > seventeenth century? From my research I believe that bed bolts are period. There are examples of 16th century field beds (German) that have the characteristic cover plate for bed bolts, and I've examined a 16th century knock-down thrown (Turkish) that also appeared to use bed bolts. I suspect that this early you would tend to find them on upper-class furniture, though by the end of the 17th century they appear to be common. Being a late 16th century type myself, I suspect my next field bed will be built with bed bolts. Fin (Tom R.) http://www.his.com/~tom/index.html Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 13:49:35 -0700 (PDT) From: "Laura C. Minnick" Subject: Re: SC - OT - need advice about vinyl inflatable beds Ok folks, since no one has said it, I will (after all, I'm an Old Queen and can say what I want!)... While punctures are probable, and a big problem when they do (though YMMV), I consider the Really Big Problem to be the *noise*. Vinyl air mattresses have a peculiar sound all their own- and I don't know 'bout the rest of you, but if you've ever camped next to an amourous couple, there's nothing quite like the EE-ee-EE-ee-EE all night long, and then you have to try to say "Good morning!" without cracking up... think I'd want to advertise like that? Nooo- it's bad enough when Certain Countesses (then Princess) round up judges and scorecards to sit outside my pavilion door when I wander out looking for my tea (taking their lives in their hands, I might add!) and I had been trying Very Hard to Be Quiet. The knight I was with thought it was hilarious. (Note use of the *past* tense...) My 'futon' isn't really a futon- it is a couple layers of foam pads (one eggcrate) and a feather bed, layered up, covered with one of those zippered mattress covers, and then covered with a corduroy sleeve. It has webbing straps sewn to one end that wrap around to roll it up, and for a temporary bed or tourney bed it is really nice. The layer of feathers holds heat (nice when a friend got hypothermic recently) and the foam keeps some spring. It rolls up quite compactly for a double bed and because the corduroy is upholstery fabric, I don't worry if something gets on it during transport or if it gets some random champagne or whipped cream on it. _It WORKS_ and that is what I care about. And it allows me to be comfy in camp, which along with the tea is a a public safety measure... telnetting from Alys' again (I'll be back in Portland later tonight!), 'Lainie Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 17:17:42 -0400 From: "Siegfried Heydrich" Subject: Re: SC - OT - need advice about vinyl inflatable beds I've also found that a couple of pieces of scrap carpet (6' x 3') work really well as a sleeping pad, and it's usually free, if you know where to look. As such, they can be pitched if they get wet or otherwise icky, or you just don't feel like toting it home. Sieggy Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 03:11:01 -0500 From: "Tristan de Rochebrune" Subject: Re: SC - OT - need advice about vinyl inflatable beds >Has anyone ever used a vinyl inflatable bed? Are they any good? Do you >think they will last long or do you think they will get a puncture in > them? I have used inflatable beds for years without much problem. I switched more out of medical reasons than anything. Being i am in a wheelchair i find it quite awkward pulling myself up from the floor of a tent or even a standard size sleeping cot. Since I already had two pavalions large enough to easily accomodate a double bed I purchased two standard size military cots and a double bed sized air matress. It works out that the cots when set side by side are within an inch or so of size of a double bed in width and length. I simply duct tape the bed frames together in a few spots in the center. put down a 1 inch thick cot pad down on each cot then a heavy blanket over both. This is mainly for keeping some sort of barrier between the cold under the bed into the matress. I works pretty good too. Then to attach the mattress to the frames (it will scoot around if not secured) i take a military poncho liner and lay over the mattress. They have double cords at each corner and center of each edge to tie them into the poncho. This works well to tie it ot the frame. The mattress will then not go anywhere you dont want it to. Then its a metter of simple bedding you choose. Plus you have plenty of under bed storage to keep things out of the walkway. If you want to get fancy you can also have a couple sheets of plywood to place on the cots instead of the pads but at that point it might be just as well to build a bed frame to haul around. I usually have to replace my mattress about once evry two to three years (Never over inflate it). This isnt an expensive venture either. I always buy the Walmart/Kmart $20.00 mattresses or if in a pinch i'll grab one from another sporting goods store like Bass Pro Shops(they usually run about 8-10 dollars more). With the blanket under and liner over punctures are few and far between but not impossible. I have lost 2 mattresses to improper packing (luckily coming home not going to) and my first mattress i lost to two over zealous kittens that were determined to see what was inside the darn thing. Oh yeah, the pads below and liner above also eliminate that rubber sqeaking sound from after hour adventures. But i do suggest good cots if that is planned, some of the cheaper aluminum ones will break a leg on you. If you want to look more period then some of the wooden bed frames and rope beds are easy to convert to accomodate the mattress, just make sure you have a good finish on the wood or a good heavy canvas/banket or two between the wood and mattress. If you dont, splinters might as well be nails in that case. Tristan Bois d'Arc Calontir Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 10:27:53 -0600 From: Joan Nicholson Subject: Re: SC -Sleeping WARM! I've been camping for a lot of years and have found the most indispensable covers for cold weather are fake furs. Get a couple of good sized pieces and layer one beneath your bottom sheets/covers and one over. Make certain that the furry side is toward your body. This traps and holds warmed air next to you and you stay incredibly comfortable. Granted fur is not for everyone's persona, but if you make a really sumptuous Renaissance coverlet, who's to know that it's fur-lined? 8^) Prydwen From: David Friedman Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Period Rope Beds: An Update Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 00:28:59 GMT Before Pennsic, I posted (and webbed) some information on period rope beds I had made, based on a 13th c. Byzantine ivory depicting the scene where Jesus tells a man to take up his bed and walk. The beds I had made at that point were scaled for children. Our seven year old and ten year old used them all through Pennsic and were very happy with them. My next project was to scale up the design for an adult. In order to make it as widely available as possible, I decided to try to build it from materials that were available, reasonably inexpensively, from a Home Depot or similar outlet, rather than the oak that I had purchased from a (very good) local lumberyard for the earlier beds. My local Home Depot sels an eight foot long softwood 4x4, untreated, for under seven dollars. I cut it into four two foot legs. The largest softwood dowels it had were 1 3/8, for a little under a dollar a linear foot. I tried using them for the four rails that peg into the legs (see the webbed description on my page (http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Articles/rope_bed/rope_bed.htm), which is an early draft of the article in the new Miscellany). While they were able to support my (roughly 190 lb) weight, the side pieces bowed so badly that I was seriously worried that if I sat up suddenly, or if one of my children decided to jump on the bed while I was lying on it, one of the side pieces might break. So I replaced the side pieces with 2x2's, available at fifty cents a foot, using a spokeshave to taper the ends to fit into the holes in the legs and to shave down the corners a little along the whole length. I put the 2x2's in with the flat side at 45 degrees from the horizontal, so as to take advantage of the greater strength on the diagonal. The side piece still bows in under my weight, but much less; I would be willing to use the bed, although I would be careful not to throw myself into it. Total cost for wood and rope (3/8" sisal or manila)--about thirty dollars. Total time to build (estimate): 1 hour to build it, another hour to lace the rope. Dimensions: 2'x6' bed, about 18" above the ground. It would be a little short for a six footer, since you don't want your head and foot right against the frame, but should work fine for someone a few inches shorter than that. -- David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Medieval.html From: David Friedman Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: More on period rope bed design Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 06:18:50 GMT Some time back, I posted on my experiments making rope beds based on a 13th c. Byzantine ivory (showing the scene where Jesus tells a man to take up his bed and walk). At the time, I had only made child sized versions. They worked very well--our children spent Pennsic on two of them. I have recently finished an adult sized rope bed on the same design. One of my objectives was to produce a design that used easily available and inexpensive materials--things you could buy at your local Home Depot or equivalent. It ended up with about $40 worth of material, including the rope. A description and pictures are now webbed at: http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Articles/rope_bed/rope_bed.htm -- David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Medieval.html From: "Lyle H. Gray" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: More on period rope bed design Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 17:56:45 GMT David Friedman wrote in message ... > wrote: >> Seriously, though, I have a rope bed. I don't know how old it is; >> it's at least more than 100 years. The side rails are 3 x 5 hardwood. >> That is incredibly _solid_ compared to some of the rope beds that I've >> seen people make for use in the SCA, usually because they don't want >> to have to lug that kind of weight around to camping events. But for >> the mechanics of that bed, it's excellent. There is no visible >> flexing of the rails when there are two people in the bed. > >What about stretching of the ropes? My old rope bed (made long before I >saw the period picture, and abandoned many years ago for the slat bed >that we currently use at Pennsic) was very solid. I don't remember any >bowing of the side rails. But it still had the problem of enforced >togetherness--the rope sagged enough so with two people in it, they >tended to both roll to the middle. There are times when that is a >desirable feature but others, especially in hot weather, when it is not. > >Does your bed still have that characteristic? [You and I discussed this at Pennsic, Cariadoc, during your class on the rope bed and the sawhorse table. I tried to bring the items I describe below past the Enchanted Ground, but never managed to catch you at home.] The bed has this characteristic somewhat, but not as badly as beds that I've seen made from lighter woods, or with narrower rails. Also, ropes don't stretch in a linear fashion, so tightening the ropes daily for the first few days will help a great deal. However, this bed came with an added feature: It has 2 extra legs that fit in among the ropes, to provide support down the centerline of the bed. This divides the bed into two sections, rather than one large one. The extra legs are T-shaped, with notches cut into the crossbar to fit the ropes. The crossbar is aligned with the length of the bed, forming a "dashed line" support, as if there were a third rail. The legs are slightly short, so that when no one is in the bed, they float about an inch or two above the ground. Only when weight is added do the legs actually touch the ground. Not to scale, must be viewed with fixed-width font: +-------------------------------+ +--+ +--+ | | +--+ +--+ +-----------+------+------------+ | | | | | | | | \ / | | \ / | | +--+ I am still working on getting photographs of these extra legs, which I will post on the web so that others can see them. Lyle FitzWilliam Subject: [MedEnc] Portable four poster bed Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 11:52:40 -0700 From: celticflame at juno.com To: MedievalEncampments at egroups.com Hi everyone, as promised... Lord Taliesin and I have this bed. It is easy to set up, breaks down completely and is actually very period looking a dramatic fashion... While those who are really heavy may not be able to use this style, it will work well for many of us smaller type folk. It seems to have held the combined weight (about 330 pounds) of us fine! Needed: 1) Sheet of Very heavy duty plywood. The more you (and spouse) weigh, the thicker the ply wood! 4) Complete large door hinges w/ pin 4) 4X4 fence posts W/ decorative cut tops (About 4' or 5' tall) 2) 2X6 boards cut to the length you want the bed (You tall folk can have a long enough bed at last...) 2) 2X6 cut to create the width, (Twin, queen, king, or even calif. King? How big is your tent!) also: 2 sections of 2X2, both 8' long. These are going to be cut to exactly the same lengths as your runners for both length and width of the bed. If you are doing a twin you will need less, a Cal.King may need all of it! Measure the length of the hinges and then measure the height of the bed for how high you want it off the ground. Where the bottom of the 2X6 rests should represent the height you want. (We place the bed high enough so an ice chest can fit under it.) You are going to attach the post and runner together with the pin and the hinge, but the hinge should be at the BOTTOM of the 2X6 runner, if it is at the top, your weight on it will eventually tweak it and cause the hinge to twist making it difficult to get the pin in and out for assembly and break down. This will create a 6" deep inset that the air mattress can rest in. You will need to line this with old blankets to avoid splinters from poking a hole in the mattress...or make it easy and take some foam to toss in and avoid those flats! Mark this on each of the 4X4 posts on one side. Take the pin out of the hinges and attach one section of each to each end of the cut and ready 2X6's, both the head/foot boards, and the side runners... (Be sure you are not separating the hinges and putting one half of it on one end and the other half of the other end, you want to keep the halves marked so that they can reunite later on the posts!...) Measure the placement of each so that the OTHER side of the hinge can be attached to each post. Now the hard part, cutting the plywood. You are going to have to measure the bed as a square first. I find that if we section it into two pieces it seems to work better, with the cut in the center running across the width rather than down the center. This is because if one of you is greatly heavy and the other light then the weight load is distributed more evenly this way...Also, for mobility having it in one piece is just a pain, the full size piece is awkward to handle and fits nearly no where in the trailer. Cut it in two for ease of transport and assembly. After you have the two sections that make up the bed flooring, you will need to cut out smaller squares at the corner to allow the intrusion of the bed posts into that square. If at each corner of the plywood (where the corners of the bed would be, not in the center split) you allow about 2" in each direction it should work, but you may need to try putting it together and make some minor adjustments so it all fits nicely. Remember to have the pins when you go to camp, as well as a hammer and a heavy punch or long nail that fits in the hinge "hole" (You can also use a thin cheep Phillips screw driver) to pop up stubborn pins. I have avoided oiling them because it ends up on the bed clothes. Now you can stain it, paint it or leave it bare wood as you choose. When next I post I will tell you my sneaky method for making a false set of bed curtains that make this whole contraption look like a canopy bed by suspending the rigging from the center and the outer posts! IF this mess looked confusing, write and I will try to make the whole thing clear...ah, I hope! Hope this makes a nice addition to many camps!! Douceline de la Hay, Caid. Subject: Re: [MedEnc] Need Link to Viking Slat Bed Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 21:00:00 -0500 From: "Steven Jensen" To: http://www.pipcom.com/wareham_forge/obdpl.jpg Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2006 23:58:45 -0500 From: Charlene Charette Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Seeking a Bed 4 Pennsic Darter the Chronicler wrote: > I am seeking a new bed for camping at Pennsic this year. I have > received many plans for making your own but due to limited time and a > lack of tools I am hoping to simply buy one. I am looking for a > queen-sized frame that stands tall enough to put clothing totes under > it. We already have a great mattress for on top. A slat bed is > preferred. > > If anyone knows where I can buy one I would really appreciate some > info. I don't always check the posts here so emailing me directly at > Darter_002 at yahoo.com would be appreciated. > > Darter (the guy who takes photos: http://www.pbase.com/darter02/sca ) Possibly too late for this gentle, but we bought a new IKEA bed frame for Gulf Wars. It breaks down flat, goes up very easily, has plenty of storage underneath, and cost around $100 without the mattress (we already that). --Perronnelle From: Sluggy! Date: May 16, 2007 2:00:31 PM CDT To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] OT: Bedding dilemma On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 11:58 -0500, Morgan Blackdragon wrote: > My lady and I are sick of air mattresses and would like to move to > something a bit more dependable. What is the best bedding in terms of > set up / break down, amount of truck space it would take up, etc. The bedding solution we have applied that has the highest comfort vs compact ratio seems to be a pair of twin size rollaway beds. They pack in about the same volume as an equivalent number of cots, sleeping bags, etc and it's hard to beat for a week-long camp such as Gulf Wars. Comfort is great enhanced (for us, anyway) by placing a 2' x 6' sheet of plywood (chipboard, really) between the springs of the bedframe and the innerspring mattress. This helps keep one's back in much better alignment, the non-braced bed tending to fold the occupant a few degrees at the waist. The biggest drawback of these beds is that, as two twin size beds, they deny one reasonable access to your snuggle buddy. At Dragonsfire Tor's most recent Guardian, we experimented with using two cots as the framework, the mattresses from the rollaways on top of them and on top of the whole assembly, a foam mattress salvaged from our camper (may it R.I.P.). The sleeping surface was very comfy. The two cot frames made for slightly high center and edges, which tended to roll us onto our separate sides of the bed, but rest was very good. This solution is also rather bulky to pack, mostly due to the volume of the mattresses. I think a platform bed with a foam or futon mattress, or even an air bed, would be very comfy and would pack nicely. Also, anything that gets one off the ground will greatly help keep the sleeper warm. I have a futon that at least a couple of events and at least one Gulf War served as very comfortable sleeping directly on the floor of the tent, but even an 8 or 10 inch thick futon mattress loses a fair amount of heat to the ground. Besides, one little tent leak and you've got a terrible mess. That does not address that it's not as easy for an overweight 40-something fighter with a bunch of new bruises to get up off a ground-mounted futon mattress as it is to alight from atop a raised bed of virtually any design. Add to that leg cramps, full bladder and Sunday morning 'dizziness' and any bed on the ground loses just about all appeal! Sluggy! From: Cam Battaglia Date: May 16, 2007 2:07:03 PM CDT To: "'Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc.'" Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] OT: Bedding dilemma Dear Morgan, We offer a platform style bed that breaks down into a small enough bundle it can be loaded in the trunk of a Saturn in twin and queen size. We also do the slat beds at what most consider a reasonable cost. Both of these styles of beds are suitable for use with either an air mattress or a futon mattress. If you are going to be at Steppes Warlord, please take a moment to drop by our booth (just as for the furniture people). Several members of the Kingdom have purchased both styles from us and we have heard no complaints. For more information on both style beds, please visit www.barefootboxes.com YIS, Ly Katrina Alyse Argo, Proprietress Barefoot Boxes / Longship Furniture Protégé to Mesterinde Annes Clotilde von Bamburg Barony Bordermarch -----Original Message----- From: ansteorra-bounces at lists.ansteorra.org [mailto:ansteorra-bounces at lists.ansteorra.org] On Behalf Of Morgan Blackdragon Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 11:58 AM To: Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc. Subject: [Ansteorra] OT: Bedding dilemma Hello to the kingdom! I have a general question and thought I would pose it to everyone to get the most information I could. My lady and I are sick of air mattresses and would like to move to something a bit more dependable. What is the best bedding in terms of set up / break down, amount of truck space it would take up, etc. I have heard suggestions on rope beds but I've also heard that the ropes will stretch and take a lot of maintenance. I have been looking at platform beds but I am trying to work out an easy (and cheaper) way to make one myself instead of buying it from a store. We'll most likely be using a futon mattress so I am mainly looking for bed frame ideas. What do you use currently, what have you used in the past, what sort of problems or praises have you come across? Do you make or have have a good bed frame that you'd like to sell? Any information, either on the list or directly to me, would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your time, ~Morgan Blackdragon~ From: Susan McMahill Date: May 16, 2007 9:34:32 PM CDT To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] OT: Bedding dilemma It is the nature of all rope to stretch, it's just a matter of how much, due to what it is made from, humidity, stress it is subjected to, how it is woven or twisted, etc. My lord and I had a bed made that has three slats of 2x4s which support two pieces of plywood. We use an air mattress because of space constrictions. The only problem we have run into is that in cooler weather, the cold air will chill the mattress from below. We have resolved that by using a couple of flattened cardboard cartons left over from moving, between the plywood and the mattress. I also put a mattress pad on the top and bottom sides of the mattress to protect from splinters on the bottom and to keep that plastic feel from us. Now the air mattress and plywood may not be period, but once the bed is made up, you would never know. Lyneya From: Chris Zakes Date: May 17, 2007 7:21:53 AM CDT To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] OT: Bedding dilemma > My lady and I are sick of air mattresses and would like to move to > something a bit more dependable. What is the best bedding in terms of > set up / break down, amount of truck space it would take up, etc. We use an old double bed frame with a foam rubber mattress. The frame itself breaks down to headboard, footboard, metal side rails and slats. We use a folding sheet of 1/2" plywood instead of a box spring. Try the local Salvation Army (or similar) store for a cheap, used bed frame. We drive a Chevy Astro van, and the mattress goes on top of all the other gear so someone can sleep comfortably in the back on long trips. -Tivar Mondragon From: Elizabeth Hawkwood Date: May 17, 2007 7:47:36 AM CDT To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] OT: Bedding dilemma If you connect the slat with rope, whether or not the rope stretches is moot. The slats are what gives support. I have used a rope bed and I loved it because it was comfortable; but it was bundlesome because I kept it all connected. Yes, after about two nights the ropes had to be tightened, but that was no big deal. However, unless two of you like to be together in the middle, a rope bed is best for one person. I have used individual slats, actually 1x4s cut to fit the width of the bed. Keeping track of and transporting 8 individual 1x4 slats is a little tricky, but the rope connections so it can be rolled up sounds like an excellent idea. This slat method is also great because each slat individually "bends" to help conform to your body, much like bed springs, also making for a comfortable night's sleep. Currently, I am using a combination of two 1x6 slats held into the side rails by wedges, with three 3/4" plywood pieces between them. This makes for a very sturdy bed, especially for two large bodies, but there is no "give" as with the individual slats. Photos of the bed can be seen here: http://dragonhawk.5u.com/bed.html. Note: we are not longer in production, but... For each of the three types of beds, there was/is a futon mattress. No air mattresses for me, thank you. //Elizabeth Hawkwood Shire of Loch Ruadh Cook for HMS Seadrake From: L T Date: May 17, 2007 11:17:37 PM CDT To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] OT: Bedding dilemma Putting it between your mattress and the sheet works quite well also.... so does using sleeping furs ;) or even a space blanket... L DeerSlayer David Backlin wrote: I have a slat bed I have used for just over a year. If the weather is going to be chilly, put a light blanket between the slats and your mattress. That keeps cold air from making your mattress cold.... expecially if you're using an air mattress. THL Edrei the Quiet (mka David Backlin) Merchant and Adventurer Shire of Smythkepe From: "Haraldr Bassi (Ansteorra lists)" Date: May 30, 2007 7:57:07 PM CDT To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] OT: Bedding dilemma Building a bed sounds daunting, but really isn't that difficult. Breaking it down to the essentials it is simply four posts, four (or more) rails to connect the four corners together and something to keep your mattress suspended between the rails. My bed is a recreation of the Gokstad style four post bed using 7 slats (1x5). It breaks down to a bundle of four 3x3 corner posts, 2 long rails with double tenons on the end and mortise holes for the slats, two short rails with single tenons for the head and foot and a pillow catcher headboard with a weird bracket to mount it on one of the bed ends (all 1x8). The slats and rails ride on top of my Toyota Matrix on the roof rack along with the pile of tent poles. The 5" foam futon folds lengthwise and rides inside the Thule cargo pod on the other half of the roof rack along with the down comforter and down pillows. The four posts ride inside the car because they are two short to be effective on top of the car. All the wood is poplar for strength but less weight than similar sized oak or ash. The futon and down comforter are folded together and use a couple of heavy bungies to tie the thing together to make it easier to stuff into the cargo pod. Note that this design would require the most amount of woodworking skill. A much simpler design can be created by using standard bed hardware available from Rockler and similar types of sources. The side rails above are sized as large as they are because the originals were even wider. To make a simple slat bed using modern hardware, obtain a length of square decent hardwood circa 2" square to make 4 posts. Get two sets of locking bed rail brackets: http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?Offerings_ID=5783 You will attach them to your four posts and four lengths of 1x6 hardwood which will be the rails on the bed. The rails will need a 1x2 attached inside the rail where the slats will ride. You can use some dowel pins to keep the slats from sliding around and the rails from pulling out. You can use a half set of brackets to add a headboard. The entire thing will break down to a pile of slats, four or five rails and four posts. You can use a tick bag with straw, a futon or even an air mattress on the bed, though you might want to increase the number of slats to have less space between if you use an air mattress. You could even design the frame to use a set of IKEA bed slats which are ultra compact and very lightweight but require a brace in the center of a full or queen size bed to share the weight. Slat sizing is always difficult. I tend to design my beds so that I can stand on the bed and access the top of the tent and not have to worry about whether my foot is spreading my weight evenly across two or more slats or whether I'm standing in the center and breaking the slats. I would never use wood with knots for a slat. Good lumber yards will sell Poplar for less per board foot than Home Depot or Lowes will charge for number 2 pine. I don't monitor the Ansteorra list as regularly as I'd like so if anyone has questions, please CC them to me directly. Best of luck, Haraldr Bassi Edited by Mark S. Harris beds-msg Page 63 of 63