pentagrams-msg - 6/10/09 ਀ഊThe case for and against allowing pentagrams in SCA heraldry. It's history within the SCA and the College of Heralds. ਀ഊNOTE: See also the files: arms-humor-msg, heraldry-msg, heraldry-bks-msg, Sinister-Hand-art, SCA-Titles-art, SCA-hist1-msg, An-SCA-History-art. ਀ഊ************************************************************************ ਀一伀吀䤀䌀䔀 ⴀഊ ਀吀栀椀猀 昀椀氀攀 椀猀 愀 挀漀氀氀攀挀琀椀漀渀 漀昀 瘀愀爀椀漀甀猀 洀攀猀猀愀最攀猀 栀愀瘀椀渀最 愀 挀漀洀洀漀渀 琀栀攀洀攀 琀栀愀琀 䤀 栀愀瘀攀 挀漀氀氀攀挀琀攀搀 昀爀漀洀 洀礀 爀攀愀搀椀渀最 漀昀 琀栀攀 瘀愀爀椀漀甀猀 挀漀洀瀀甀琀攀爀 渀攀琀眀漀爀欀猀⸀ 匀漀洀攀 洀攀猀猀愀最攀猀 搀愀琀攀 戀愀挀欀 琀漀 ㄀㤀㠀㤀Ⰰ 猀漀洀攀 洀愀礀 戀攀 愀猀 爀攀挀攀渀琀 愀猀 礀攀猀琀攀爀搀愀礀⸀ഊ ਀吀栀椀猀 昀椀氀攀 椀猀 瀀愀爀琀 漀昀 愀 挀漀氀氀攀挀琀椀漀渀 漀昀 昀椀氀攀猀 挀愀氀氀攀搀 匀琀攀昀愀渀✀猀 䘀氀漀爀椀氀攀最椀甀洀⸀ 吀栀攀猀攀 昀椀氀攀猀 愀爀攀 愀瘀愀椀氀愀戀氀攀 漀渀 琀栀攀 䤀渀琀攀爀渀攀琀 愀琀㨀 栀琀琀瀀㨀⼀⼀眀眀眀⸀昀氀漀爀椀氀攀最椀甀洀⸀漀爀最ഊ ਀䤀 栀愀瘀攀 搀漀渀攀 愀 氀椀洀椀琀攀搀 愀洀漀甀渀琀 漀昀 攀搀椀琀椀渀最⸀ 䴀攀猀猀愀最攀猀 栀愀瘀椀渀最 琀漀 搀漀 眀椀琀栀 猀攀瀀愀爀愀琀攀 琀漀瀀椀挀猀 眀攀爀攀 猀漀洀攀琀椀洀攀猀 猀瀀氀椀琀 椀渀琀漀 搀椀昀昀攀爀攀渀琀 昀椀氀攀猀 愀渀搀 猀漀洀攀琀椀洀攀猀 攀砀琀爀愀渀攀漀甀猀 椀渀昀漀爀洀愀琀椀漀渀 眀愀猀 爀攀洀漀瘀攀搀⸀ 䘀漀爀 椀渀猀琀愀渀挀攀Ⰰ 琀栀攀 洀攀猀猀愀最攀 䤀䐀猀 眀攀爀攀 爀攀洀漀瘀攀搀 琀漀 猀愀瘀攀 猀瀀愀挀攀 愀渀搀 爀攀洀漀瘀攀 挀氀甀琀琀攀爀⸀ഊ ਀吀栀攀 挀漀洀洀攀渀琀猀 洀愀搀攀 椀渀 琀栀攀猀攀 洀攀猀猀愀最攀猀 愀爀攀 渀漀琀 渀攀挀攀猀猀愀爀椀氀礀 洀礀 瘀椀攀眀瀀漀椀渀琀猀⸀ 䤀 洀愀欀攀 渀漀 挀氀愀椀洀猀 愀猀 琀漀 琀栀攀 愀挀挀甀爀愀挀礀 漀昀 琀栀攀 椀渀昀漀爀洀愀琀椀漀渀 最椀瘀攀渀 戀礀 琀栀攀 椀渀搀椀瘀椀搀甀愀氀 愀甀琀栀漀爀猀⸀ഊ ਀倀氀攀愀猀攀 爀攀猀瀀攀挀琀 琀栀攀 琀椀洀攀 愀渀搀 攀昀昀漀爀琀猀 漀昀 琀栀漀猀攀 眀栀漀 栀愀瘀攀 眀爀椀琀琀攀渀 琀栀攀猀攀 洀攀猀猀愀最攀猀⸀ 吀栀攀 挀漀瀀礀爀椀最栀琀 猀琀愀琀甀猀 漀昀 琀栀攀猀攀 洀攀猀猀愀最攀猀 椀猀 甀渀挀氀攀愀爀 愀琀 琀栀椀猀 琀椀洀攀⸀ 䤀昀 椀渀昀漀爀洀愀琀椀漀渀 椀猀 瀀甀戀氀椀猀栀攀搀 昀爀漀洀 琀栀攀猀攀 洀攀猀猀愀最攀猀Ⰰ 瀀氀攀愀猀攀 最椀瘀攀 挀爀攀搀椀琀 琀漀 琀栀攀 漀爀椀最椀渀愀琀漀爀⠀猀⤀⸀ഊ ਀吀栀愀渀欀 礀漀甀Ⰰഊ Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous ਀                                          匀琀攀昀愀渀 愀琀 昀氀漀爀椀氀攀最椀甀洀⸀漀爀最ഊ************************************************************************ ਀ഊFrom: "tracey sawyer" ਀吀漀㨀 ∀吀栀攀 匀栀愀洀戀氀攀猀Ⰰ 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀 䰀漀挀栀愀挀 洀愀椀氀椀渀最 氀椀猀琀∀ 㰀氀漀挀栀愀挀 愀琀 猀挀愀⸀漀爀最⸀愀甀㸀ഊSent: Monday, May 11, 2009 6:16 PM ਀匀甀戀樀攀挀琀㨀 刀攀㨀 嬀䰀漀挀栀愀挀崀 刀攀氀椀最椀漀甀猀 猀礀洀戀漀氀猀 椀渀 栀攀爀愀氀搀爀礀 ⠀氀漀渀最⤀ഊ ਀䤀 愀最爀攀攀 眀椀琀栀 䨀愀渀攀 琀栀愀琀 椀琀✀猀 愀 猀栀愀洀攀 琀栀愀琀 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀 栀愀猀 洀愀搀攀 愀 爀甀氀攀 戀愀猀攀搀 漀渀 ഊthe blind prejudice of just one area of the (known) world. Period rules of ਀栀攀爀愀氀搀爀礀 猀栀漀甀氀搀 戀攀 昀漀氀氀漀眀攀搀Ⰰ 椀渀 眀栀椀挀栀 挀愀猀攀 琀栀攀 甀瀀爀椀最栀琀 瀀攀渀琀愀挀氀攀 眀漀甀氀搀 戀攀 ഊable to be used. ਀ഊHere is just one piece of evidence to show that it is an acceptable heraldic ਀猀礀洀戀漀氀㨀ഊ ਀圀栀攀渀 琀栀攀 瀀漀攀琀 眀爀漀琀攀 匀椀爀 䜀愀眀愀椀渀 愀渀搀 琀栀攀 䜀爀攀攀渀 䬀渀椀最栀琀Ⰰ 栀攀 搀攀猀挀爀椀戀攀搀 䜀愀眀愀椀渀✀猀 ഊarmour in detail including the pentangle upon his shield (Norton Anthology ਀漀昀 䔀渀最氀椀猀栀 䰀椀琀攀爀愀琀甀爀攀Ⰰ 瀀㄀㜀㔀 䰀䰀㘀㄀㤀ⴀ㘀㘀㤀⤀⸀ഊ ਀∀吀栀攀渀 琀栀攀礀 猀栀漀眀攀搀 昀漀爀琀栀 琀栀攀 猀栀椀攀氀搀Ⰰ 琀栀愀琀 猀栀漀渀攀 愀氀氀 爀攀搀ⰀഊWith the pentangle portrayed in purest gold." (LL 619,620) ਀ഊAccording to this poem the pentangle stood for: (from L640) ਀ഊ"...he was faultless in his five senses, ਀一漀爀 昀漀甀渀搀 攀瘀攀爀 琀漀 昀愀椀氀 椀渀 栀椀猀 昀椀瘀攀 昀椀渀最攀爀猀ⰀഊAnd all his fealty was fixed upon the five wounds ਀吀栀愀琀 䌀栀爀椀猀琀 最漀琀 漀渀 琀栀攀 挀爀漀猀猀Ⰰ 愀猀 琀栀攀 挀爀攀攀搀 琀攀氀氀猀㬀ഊAnd wherever this man in melee took part, ਀䠀椀猀 漀渀攀 琀栀漀甀最栀琀 眀愀猀 漀昀 琀栀椀猀Ⰰ 瀀愀猀琀 愀氀氀 琀栀椀渀最猀 攀氀猀攀ⰀഊThat all his force was founded on the five joys ਀吀栀愀琀 琀栀攀 栀椀最栀 儀甀攀攀渀 漀昀 栀攀愀瘀攀渀 栀愀搀 椀渀 栀攀爀 挀栀椀氀搀⸀∀ഊ ਀吀栀攀渀 昀爀漀洀 氀椀渀攀 㘀㔀㄀ 琀栀攀猀攀 欀渀椀最栀琀氀礀 瘀椀爀琀甀攀猀㨀ഊ ਀∀吀栀攀 昀椀昀琀栀 漀昀 琀栀攀 昀椀瘀攀 昀椀瘀攀猀 昀漀氀氀漀眀攀搀 戀礀 琀栀椀猀 欀渀椀最栀琀ഊWere beneficence boundless and brotherly love ਀䄀渀搀 瀀甀爀攀 洀椀渀搀 愀渀搀 洀愀渀渀攀爀猀㬀 琀栀愀琀 渀漀渀攀 洀椀最栀琀 椀洀瀀攀愀挀栀ⰀഊAnd compassion most precious - these peerless five..." ਀ഊAs this play dates from ca 1375 - 1400 it can be seen that the ਀瀀攀渀琀愀渀最氀攀⼀瀀攀渀琀愀挀氀攀⼀瀀攀渀琀愀最爀愀洀Ⰰ 眀栀愀琀攀瘀攀爀 礀漀甀 眀愀渀琀 琀漀 挀愀氀氀 椀琀Ⰰ 圀䄀匀 甀猀攀搀 愀猀 愀渀 ഊheraldic device (at least in the literature) in period, that it had nothing ਀琀漀 搀漀 眀椀琀栀 搀攀瘀椀氀 眀漀爀猀栀椀瀀 戀甀琀 眀愀猀 漀渀攀 漀昀 琀栀攀 洀愀渀礀 䌀栀爀椀猀琀椀愀渀 猀礀洀戀漀氀猀 甀猀攀搀 椀渀 ഊthe middle ages. [I believe the pentacle has to be upside-down to symbolise ਀搀攀瘀椀氀 眀漀爀猀栀椀瀀崀⸀ഊ ਀䈀愀猀攀搀 甀瀀漀渀 琀栀椀猀 琀礀瀀攀 漀昀 攀瘀椀搀攀渀挀攀 猀甀爀攀氀礀 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀 愀渀 ∀攀搀甀挀愀琀椀漀渀愀氀∀ 猀漀挀椀攀琀礀 ഊshould allow the pentacle and teach the correct use of it. ਀ഊThose that have a problem with it, or living in Kingdoms or mundane areas ਀琀栀愀琀 眀漀甀氀搀 瘀椀攀眀 椀琀 渀攀最愀琀椀瘀攀氀礀Ⰰ 挀愀渀 挀栀漀漀猀攀 渀漀琀 琀漀 甀猀攀 琀栀攀 猀礀洀戀漀氀⸀ഊ ਀吀栀漀猀攀 琀爀愀瘀攀氀椀渀最 琀漀 眀愀爀⼀攀瘀攀渀琀 椀渀 愀 猀琀愀琀攀 琀栀愀琀 眀漀甀氀搀 栀愀瘀攀 ⠀漀爀 洀椀最栀琀 挀愀甀猀攀⤀ ഊproblems with someone bearing a pentacle as a device, could use a cloth ਀猀栀椀攀氀搀 挀漀瘀攀爀Ⰰ 攀椀琀栀攀爀 瀀氀愀椀渀 漀爀 眀椀琀栀 琀栀攀椀爀 最爀漀甀瀀⼀䈀愀爀漀渀椀愀氀 漀爀 䬀椀渀最搀漀洀 愀爀洀猀⸀ഊ ਀吀栀攀 猀眀愀猀琀椀欀愀 䤀✀洀 渀漀琀 猀漀 猀甀爀攀 漀昀⸀⸀⸀ 礀攀猀 椀琀✀猀 愀 瀀攀爀椀漀搀 猀礀洀戀漀氀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 琀栀攀 甀猀攀 漀昀 ഊthe swastika as a Nazi symbol is within living memory. Personally, I think ਀眀攀 猀栀漀甀氀搀渀✀琀 甀猀攀 椀琀 漀甀琀 漀昀 爀攀猀瀀攀挀琀 昀漀爀 琀栀攀 瘀椀挀琀椀洀猀 漀昀 圀圀䤀䤀 愀渀搀 琀栀漀猀攀 眀栀漀 ഊfought against the Nazi regime. I believe we are still too close to the evil ਀椀琀 栀愀猀 挀漀洀攀 琀漀 猀礀洀戀漀氀椀稀攀 琀漀 爀攀椀渀猀琀愀琀攀 椀琀 愀猀 愀渀 栀攀爀愀氀搀椀挀 猀礀洀戀漀氀 椀渀 愀 最愀洀攀Ⰰ ഊwhich may appear to belittle the horror of that period of our recent ਀栀椀猀琀漀爀礀⸀ഊ ਀䰀漀眀爀礀ഊ ਀ഊDate: Tue, 12 May 2009 12:52:11 +1000 (EST) ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 ∀䌀椀愀渀 䜀椀氀氀攀戀栀爀愀琀栀∀ 㰀洀渀椀攀洀愀渀渀 愀琀 氀愀戀礀爀椀渀琀栀⸀渀攀琀⸀愀甀㸀ഊSubject: Re: [Lochac] Religious symbols in heraldry ਀吀漀㨀 ∀吀栀攀 匀栀愀洀戀氀攀猀Ⰰ 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀 䰀漀挀栀愀挀 洀愀椀氀椀渀最 氀椀猀琀∀ 㰀氀漀挀栀愀挀 愀琀 猀挀愀⸀漀爀最⸀愀甀㸀ഊ ਀䰀漀甀椀猀愀 猀愀椀搀ഊ<<< For when we do forget we begin the tragic cycle again. I have lived in a ਀琀椀洀攀 眀栀攀渀 眀攀 欀渀攀眀 漀昀 愀渀搀 眀攀爀攀 椀渀瘀漀氀瘀攀搀 椀渀 愀 眀愀爀 ⠀戀礀 眀栀愀琀攀瘀攀爀 渀愀洀攀⤀ 眀椀琀栀漀甀琀ഊstop. ਀ഊKeeping the knowledge of then by honoring it now applies so perfectly to ਀琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀 椀琀✀猀 猀挀愀爀礀⸀  䔀瘀攀渀 琀栀漀猀攀 瀀愀爀琀猀 眀攀 搀漀渀✀琀 猀瀀攀愀欀 漀昀 昀漀爀 瀀漀氀椀琀椀挀愀氀ഊcorrectness are part of the heritage. ਀ഊSo huzzah for the SCA and discussions that educate as well. ਀ഊMy question is were some of these "charges not to be used" designated such ਀戀攀挀愀甀猀攀 漀昀㨀ഊ 1) misuse or misunderstanding within the Society ਀漀爀ഊ 2) misunderstanding if they were seen by people outside the Society? >>> ਀ഊThe first we should be able to fix, as we the Society are responsible for ਀攀搀甀挀愀琀椀渀最 漀甀爀 洀攀洀戀攀爀猀⸀ 吀栀攀 猀攀挀漀渀搀 眀攀 挀愀渀渀漀琀 昀椀砀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 挀愀渀 眀攀 猀愀礀 眀攀 愀爀攀ഊresponsible for their misconceptions anyway? Why should we have to change ਀漀甀爀 眀愀礀猀 樀甀猀琀 戀攀挀愀甀猀攀 琀栀攀礀 氀愀挀欀 欀渀漀眀氀攀搀最攀 琀漀 甀渀搀攀爀猀琀愀渀搀 琀栀攀 挀漀渀琀攀砀琀 椀渀ഊwhich these charges would be used? ਀ഊAnd yes, five pointed stars, inverted or not are used historically in many ਀眀愀礀猀⸀⸀⸀⸀ 氀漀漀欀 愀琀 琀栀攀 眀椀渀搀漀眀猀 漀昀 琀栀攀 挀栀甀爀挀栀 漀昀 一漀琀爀攀ⴀ䐀愀洀攀ഊ(http://www.gloriaamendola.com/uw11.jpg) ਀ഊCian. ਀ഊ ਀䐀愀琀攀㨀 吀甀攀Ⰰ ㄀㈀ 䴀愀礀 ㈀　　㤀 ㄀㐀㨀㌀㠀㨀㌀㄀ ⬀㄀　　　ഊFrom: Braddon Giles ਀匀甀戀樀攀挀琀㨀 刀攀㨀 嬀䰀漀挀栀愀挀崀 刀攀氀椀最椀漀甀猀 猀礀洀戀漀氀猀 椀渀 栀攀爀愀氀搀爀礀ഊTo: "The Shambles, the SCA Lochac mailing list" ਀ഊHi Jane! ਀ഊI don't have the complete answer for you, but I hope that I have some. ਀吀栀攀 匀䌀䄀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 椀琀✀猀 漀昀昀椀挀攀爀猀 氀椀欀攀 琀栀攀 䌀漀氀氀攀最攀 漀昀 䠀攀爀愀氀搀猀Ⰰ 椀猀 挀愀爀攀昀甀氀 琀漀ഊstate that it doesn't practice religion. We may choose to study it in ਀瀀攀爀椀漀搀Ⰰ 漀爀 栀愀瘀攀 漀甀爀 漀眀渀 昀愀椀琀栀猀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 椀琀 椀猀 漀昀昀椀挀椀愀氀氀礀 渀攀椀琀栀攀爀 瀀爀愀挀琀椀挀攀搀ഊnor forbidden. There is no attempt here to say that one person's ਀爀攀氀椀最椀漀渀 椀猀 戀攀琀琀攀爀 琀栀愀渀 愀渀漀琀栀攀爀✀猀⸀ഊ ਀圀栀愀琀 椀猀 昀漀爀戀椀搀搀攀渀 椀猀 猀愀渀挀琀椀漀渀攀搀 漀昀昀攀渀挀攀⸀ 吀栀攀 䌀漀氀氀攀最攀 漀昀 䠀攀爀愀氀搀猀 椀猀ഊrightly guarded against registering names and devices that might cause ਀漀昀昀攀渀挀攀⸀ 吀栀攀爀攀 愀爀攀 氀漀愀搀猀 漀昀 瀀攀爀昀攀挀琀氀礀 最漀漀搀 瀀攀爀椀漀搀 渀愀洀攀猀 琀栀愀琀 愀爀攀 琀漀搀愀礀ഊdripping with racial hatred, religious bigotry and gender oppression. ਀圀攀 挀栀漀漀猀攀 渀漀琀 琀漀 甀猀攀 琀栀攀洀⸀ഊ ਀匀椀洀椀氀愀爀氀礀 眀椀琀栀 猀礀洀戀漀氀猀 琀栀愀琀 洀愀礀 栀愀瘀攀 爀攀氀椀最椀漀甀猀 漀爀 漀琀栀攀爀 挀漀渀渀漀琀愀琀椀漀渀猀⸀ഊIt is not that they have a link with any religion, it is the _offence_ ਀挀爀攀愀琀攀搀 戀礀 琀栀攀 猀礀洀戀漀氀 椀渀 琀栀攀 挀漀洀洀甀渀椀琀礀⸀ 䰀攀琀✀猀 琀愀欀攀 琀栀攀 猀眀愀琀椀欀愀 愀猀ഊbeing offensive to 99% of the population. I'm personally not ਀琀栀爀攀愀琀攀渀攀搀 戀礀 琀栀攀 猀眀愀猀琀椀欀愀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 䤀 欀渀漀眀 瀀氀攀渀琀礀 眀栀漀 愀爀攀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 栀愀瘀椀渀最 戀攀攀渀ഊto Mauthausen and the Anne Franck Haus (both really worth the trip ਀䈀吀圀⤀ 䤀 眀愀渀琀 琀漀 猀甀瀀瀀漀爀琀 琀栀漀猀攀 眀栀漀 昀椀渀搀 琀栀攀 猀眀愀猀琀椀欀愀 漀昀昀攀渀猀椀瘀攀 愀渀搀ഊensure that it is not registered by our official bodies. Lest we ਀昀漀爀最攀琀⸀ഊ ਀䤀✀洀 愀 氀椀琀琀氀攀 氀攀猀猀 猀漀氀椀搀 漀渀 琀栀攀 瀀攀渀琀愀最爀愀洀⸀ 䄀最愀椀渀Ⰰ 椀琀 搀漀攀猀渀✀琀 昀甀猀猀 洀攀ഊmuch (it's just a symbol, right?), but there is a strong feeling of ਀漀昀昀攀渀挀攀 愀洀漀渀最 琀栀攀 眀漀爀氀搀 眀椀搀攀 匀䌀䄀 挀漀洀洀甀渀椀琀礀 愀戀漀甀琀 瀀攀渀琀愀最爀愀洀猀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 愀ഊrecognition that what is just a symbol to us is very offensive to a ਀猀椀最渀椀昀椀挀愀渀琀 瀀愀爀琀 漀昀 琀栀攀 渀漀渀 匀䌀䄀 眀漀爀氀搀 眀攀 愀爀攀 攀洀戀攀搀搀攀搀 椀渀⸀ 䈀攀椀渀最ഊsensitive to this is smart. ਀ഊNow, am I just another one of the oppressors who won't let good, ਀栀漀渀攀猀琀 䐀攀瘀椀氀 眀漀爀猀栀椀瀀瀀攀爀猀 栀愀瘀攀 琀栀攀椀爀 爀椀最栀琀昀甀氀 瀀氀愀挀攀 椀渀 漀甀爀 攀渀氀椀最栀琀攀渀攀搀ഊmulticultural society? I don't think so, certainly not on a personal ਀氀攀瘀攀氀⸀ 吀栀攀礀 愀爀攀 眀攀氀挀漀洀攀 琀漀 琀栀攀椀爀 昀愀椀琀栀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 漀渀 愀渀 漀爀最愀渀椀猀愀琀椀漀渀愀氀 氀攀瘀攀氀ഊwe have an obligation. However, as community attitudes change our ਀漀戀氀椀最愀琀椀漀渀猀 洀愀礀 愀氀琀攀爀Ⰰ 琀漀漀⸀ 䤀琀 洀愀礀 戀攀 漀渀氀礀 愀 最攀渀攀爀愀琀椀漀渀 漀爀 琀眀漀 戀攀昀漀爀攀ഊpentagrams are more common than lions rampant. Just not today. ਀ഊGiles. ਀ഊ ਀䐀愀琀攀㨀 吀甀攀Ⰰ ㄀㈀ 䴀愀礀 ㈀　　㤀 ㄀㔀㨀　㄀㨀㈀㌀ ⬀㄀　　　ഊFrom: Talith Jennison ਀匀甀戀樀攀挀琀㨀 刀攀㨀 嬀䰀漀挀栀愀挀崀 刀攀氀椀最椀漀甀猀 猀礀洀戀漀氀猀 椀渀 栀攀爀愀氀搀爀礀ഊTo: "The Shambles, the SCA Lochac mailing list" ਀ഊ> However, as community attitudes change our obligations may alter ਀ഊWhich is why the rules aren't written in stone. There is a badge ਀挀甀爀爀攀渀琀氀礀 椀渀 猀甀戀洀椀猀猀椀漀渀 琀栀愀琀 椀猀 ∀椀渀琀攀渀搀攀搀 琀漀 搀椀爀攀挀琀氀礀 挀栀愀氀氀攀渀最攀 琀栀攀ഊcurrent applicability of prior precedents regarding the unregistrability ਀漀昀 愀 洀甀氀氀攀琀 瘀漀椀搀攀搀 愀渀搀 椀渀琀攀爀氀愀挀攀搀 ⠀愀氀猀漀 欀渀漀眀渀 愀猀 愀 瀀攀渀琀愀挀氀攀 漀爀 愀ഊpentagram)." The argument for can be seen here: ਀栀琀琀瀀㨀⼀⼀漀猀挀愀爀⸀猀挀愀⸀漀爀最⼀椀渀搀攀砀⸀瀀栀瀀㼀愀挀琀椀漀渀㴀㄀　　☀氀漀椀㴀㔀　㔀ഊ ਀䰀愀甀爀攀氀✀猀 搀攀挀椀猀椀漀渀 漀渀 漀瘀攀爀琀甀爀渀椀渀最 琀栀攀 戀愀渀 猀栀漀甀氀搀 戀攀 漀渀 琀栀攀 瘀攀爀礀 渀攀砀琀ഊLetter of Acceptance and Return. Pentagrams could well become ਀爀攀最椀猀琀攀爀愀戀氀攀 椀渀 愀 昀攀眀 眀攀攀欀猀⸀ഊ ਀吀愀洀猀礀渀ഊ ਀ഊDate: Tue, 12 May 2009 15:23:04 +1000 ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 䨀愀渀攀 匀琀漀挀欀琀漀渀 㰀樀愀渀攀开猀琀漀挀欀琀漀渀 愀琀 眀攀戀挀漀渀⸀渀攀琀⸀愀甀㸀ഊSubject: Re: [Lochac] Religious symbols in heraldry ਀吀漀㨀 ∀吀栀攀 匀栀愀洀戀氀攀猀Ⰰ 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀 䰀漀挀栀愀挀 洀愀椀氀椀渀最 氀椀猀琀∀ 㰀氀漀挀栀愀挀 愀琀 猀挀愀⸀漀爀最⸀愀甀㸀ഊ ਀㰀㰀㰀 䤀 搀漀渀✀琀 栀愀瘀攀 琀栀攀 挀漀洀瀀氀攀琀攀 愀渀猀眀攀爀 昀漀爀 礀漀甀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 䤀 栀漀瀀攀 琀栀愀琀 䤀 栀愀瘀攀 猀漀洀攀⸀ഊThe SCA, and it's officers like the College of Heralds, is careful to ਀猀琀愀琀攀 琀栀愀琀 椀琀 搀漀攀猀渀✀琀 瀀爀愀挀琀椀挀攀 爀攀氀椀最椀漀渀⸀ 圀攀 洀愀礀 挀栀漀漀猀攀 琀漀 猀琀甀搀礀 椀琀 椀渀ഊperiod, or have our own faiths, but it is officially neither practiced ਀渀漀爀 昀漀爀戀椀搀搀攀渀⸀ 吀栀攀爀攀 椀猀 渀漀 愀琀琀攀洀瀀琀 栀攀爀攀 琀漀 猀愀礀 琀栀愀琀 漀渀攀 瀀攀爀猀漀渀✀猀ഊreligion is better than another's. >>> ਀ഊAnd you started so well!! Yes, the SCA DOES say one persons religion ਀椀猀 戀攀琀琀攀爀 琀栀愀渀 愀渀漀琀栀攀爀Ⰰ 琀栀愀琀 眀愀猀 洀礀 瀀漀椀渀琀⸀ഊ ਀䌀爀漀猀猀 㴀 䌀栀爀椀猀琀椀愀渀椀琀礀 椀猀 伀䬀ഊPentagram = Satanism/Paganism/Occult and anything else etc etc is not. ਀ഊMaybe the current standards to reflect what the majority want, but ਀搀漀渀✀琀 瀀爀攀琀攀渀搀 琀栀愀琀 琀栀椀猀 樀甀搀最攀洀攀渀琀猀 愀爀攀渀✀琀 戀攀椀渀最 洀愀搀攀⸀ 䤀昀 琀栀攀猀攀 ഊdecisions are fair and have solid standing, people shouldn't be ਀愀昀爀愀椀搀 漀昀 猀琀愀渀搀椀渀最 戀礀 琀栀攀洀⸀ഊ ਀㰀㰀㰀 圀栀愀琀 椀猀 昀漀爀戀椀搀搀攀渀 椀猀 猀愀渀挀琀椀漀渀攀搀 漀昀昀攀渀挀攀⸀ 吀栀攀 䌀漀氀氀攀最攀 漀昀 䠀攀爀愀氀搀猀 椀猀ഊrightly guarded against registering names and devices that might cause ਀漀昀昀攀渀挀攀⸀ 吀栀攀爀攀 愀爀攀 氀漀愀搀猀 漀昀 瀀攀爀昀攀挀琀氀礀 最漀漀搀 瀀攀爀椀漀搀 渀愀洀攀猀 琀栀愀琀 愀爀攀 琀漀搀愀礀ഊdripping with racial hatred, religious bigotry and gender oppression. ਀圀攀 挀栀漀漀猀攀 渀漀琀 琀漀 甀猀攀 琀栀攀洀⸀ ഊ ਀匀椀洀椀氀愀爀氀礀 眀椀琀栀 猀礀洀戀漀氀猀 琀栀愀琀 洀愀礀 栀愀瘀攀 爀攀氀椀最椀漀甀猀 漀爀 漀琀栀攀爀 挀漀渀渀漀琀愀琀椀漀渀猀⸀ഊIt is not that they have a link with any religion, it is the _offence_ ਀挀爀攀愀琀攀搀 戀礀 琀栀攀 猀礀洀戀漀氀 椀渀 琀栀攀 挀漀洀洀甀渀椀琀礀⸀ 䰀攀琀✀猀 琀愀欀攀 琀栀攀 猀眀愀猀琀椀欀愀 愀猀ഊbeing offensive to 99% of the population. I'm personally not ਀琀栀爀攀愀琀攀渀攀搀 戀礀 琀栀攀 猀眀愀猀琀椀欀愀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 䤀 欀渀漀眀 瀀氀攀渀琀礀 眀栀漀 愀爀攀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 栀愀瘀椀渀最 戀攀攀渀ഊto Mauthausen and the Anne Franck Haus (both really worth the trip ਀䈀吀圀⤀ 䤀 眀愀渀琀 琀漀 猀甀瀀瀀漀爀琀 琀栀漀猀攀 眀栀漀 昀椀渀搀 琀栀攀 猀眀愀猀琀椀欀愀 漀昀昀攀渀猀椀瘀攀 愀渀搀ഊensure that it is not registered by our official bodies. Lest we ਀昀漀爀最攀琀⸀ 㸀㸀㸀ഊ ਀吀栀椀猀 漀渀攀 䤀 愀洀 椀渀 琀眀漀 洀椀渀搀猀 愀戀漀甀琀⸀ 圀栀椀氀攀 愀 瀀攀爀椀漀搀 挀栀愀爀最攀Ⰰ 䤀 愀洀 ഊpersonally offended by its use. I've nearly lost a job over objecting ਀琀漀 椀琀猀 甀猀攀⸀ഊ ਀䈀甀琀 椀琀 椀猀 愀 戀椀琀 栀礀瀀漀挀爀椀琀椀挀愀氀 漀昀 洀攀 琀漀 搀攀洀愀渀搀 昀爀攀攀搀漀洀 漀昀 挀栀漀椀挀攀 眀栀椀氀攀 ഊdenying it to others. ਀ഊIn this case I can live with being a hypocrite. ਀ഊ<<< I'm a little less solid on the pentagram. Again, it doesn't fuss me ਀洀甀挀栀 ⠀椀琀✀猀 樀甀猀琀 愀 猀礀洀戀漀氀Ⰰ 爀椀最栀琀㼀⤀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 琀栀攀爀攀 椀猀 愀 猀琀爀漀渀最 昀攀攀氀椀渀最 漀昀ഊoffence among the world wide SCA community about pentagrams, and a ਀爀攀挀漀最渀椀琀椀漀渀 琀栀愀琀 眀栀愀琀 椀猀 樀甀猀琀 愀 猀礀洀戀漀氀 琀漀 甀猀 椀猀 瘀攀爀礀 漀昀昀攀渀猀椀瘀攀 琀漀 愀ഊsignificant part of the non SCA world we are embedded in. Being ਀猀攀渀猀椀琀椀瘀攀 琀漀 琀栀椀猀 椀猀 猀洀愀爀琀⸀ 㸀㸀㸀ഊ ਀匀漀爀爀礀Ⰰ 䤀 洀甀猀琀 栀愀瘀攀 洀椀猀猀攀搀 琀栀愀琀 瘀漀琀攀⸀ 䠀漀眀 眀愀猀 琀栀椀猀 搀攀琀攀爀洀椀渀攀搀㼀 䴀愀礀戀攀 ഊwe've been going to different events, but I see an awful lot of ਀瀀攀渀琀最爀愀洀猀 戀攀椀渀最 眀漀爀渀 愀琀 匀䌀䄀 攀瘀攀渀琀猀⸀ 䌀漀渀猀椀搀攀爀椀渀最 琀栀愀琀 琀栀攀 漀渀氀礀 琀眀漀 ഊorganised religious events at the last few Festivals have been evenly ਀猀瀀氀椀琀 戀攀琀眀攀攀渀 䌀栀爀椀猀琀椀愀渀 ⠀䌀愀琀栀漀氀椀挀 䴀愀猀猀⤀ 愀渀搀 倀愀最愀渀猀⼀䠀攀愀琀栀攀渀猀 挀椀爀挀氀攀猀Ⰰ ഊI think that this claim of huge majorities of offended people is ਀猀漀洀攀眀栀愀琀 漀瀀攀渀 琀漀 搀攀戀愀琀攀⸀ഊ ਀䤀 愀洀 渀漀琀 愀 戀椀最 昀愀渀 漀昀 挀愀瘀椀渀最 椀渀 琀漀 漀琀栀攀爀 瀀攀漀瀀氀攀猀 戀椀最漀琀爀礀⸀ 吀栀攀爀攀 愀爀攀 ഊlarge parts of the non-SCA world that has problems with people of ਀搀椀昀昀攀爀攀渀琀 攀琀栀渀椀挀 戀愀挀欀最爀漀甀渀搀猀Ⰰ 搀漀 眀攀 挀栀甀挀欀 琀栀攀洀 漀甀琀㼀 圀栀愀琀 愀戀漀甀琀 瀀攀漀瀀氀攀 ഊwith disabilities? ਀ഊBeing "sensitive" to these bigotries isn't smart, it's just easier. ਀ഊ<<< Now, am I just another one of the oppressors who won't let good, ਀栀漀渀攀猀琀 䐀攀瘀椀氀 眀漀爀猀栀椀瀀瀀攀爀猀 栀愀瘀攀 琀栀攀椀爀 爀椀最栀琀昀甀氀 瀀氀愀挀攀 椀渀 漀甀爀 攀渀氀椀最栀琀攀渀攀搀ഊmulticultural society? I don't think so, certainly not on a personal ਀氀攀瘀攀氀⸀ 吀栀攀礀 愀爀攀 眀攀氀挀漀洀攀 琀漀 琀栀攀椀爀 昀愀椀琀栀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 漀渀 愀渀 漀爀最愀渀椀猀愀琀椀漀渀愀氀 氀攀瘀攀氀ഊwe have an obligation. >>> ਀ഊWell, thanks for illustrating my point. Not everyone that uses the ਀瀀攀渀琀愀最爀愀洀 愀猀 愀 爀攀氀椀最椀漀甀猀 猀礀洀戀漀氀 椀猀 匀愀琀愀渀椀猀琀⸀ 䴀漀猀琀 愀爀攀渀✀琀 愀挀琀甀愀氀氀礀 愀猀 ഊPagans don't believe in the Christian God and demi-gods. ਀ഊI suppose a big part of this is the usual problem, these decisions ਀愀爀攀 戀攀椀渀最 洀愀搀攀 戀愀猀攀搀 漀渀 琀栀攀 挀甀氀琀甀爀愀氀 洀漀爀攀猀 漀昀 琀栀攀 唀匀䄀Ⰰ 眀栀椀挀栀 愀爀攀 瘀攀爀礀 ഊdifferent to other parts of the SCA world. ਀ഊ However, as community attitudes change our ਀漀戀氀椀最愀琀椀漀渀猀 洀愀礀 愀氀琀攀爀Ⰰ 琀漀漀⸀ 䤀琀 洀愀礀 戀攀 漀渀氀礀 愀 最攀渀攀爀愀琀椀漀渀 漀爀 琀眀漀 戀攀昀漀爀攀ഊpentagrams are more common than lions rampant. Just not today. ਀ഊWell, until the rules change, they won't be used at all, will they? ਀ഊ<<< Giles. >>> ਀ഊJane ਀ഊ ਀䐀愀琀攀㨀 吀甀攀Ⰰ 㤀 䨀甀渀 ㈀　　㤀 ㄀㜀㨀　㄀㨀㐀㜀 ⬀㄀　　　ഊFrom: Paul Sleigh ਀匀甀戀樀攀挀琀㨀 嬀䰀漀挀栀愀挀崀 倀攀渀琀愀挀氀攀猀 䄀爀攀 刀攀最椀猀琀攀爀愀戀氀攀ഊTo: Shambles ਀ഊPosted just now by Tamsyn Northover to the Blazons mailing list, hot ਀漀昀昀 琀栀攀 瀀爀攀猀猀攀猀 昀爀漀洀 琀栀攀 䴀愀爀挀栀 䰀攀琀琀攀爀 漀昀 䄀挀挀攀瀀琀愀渀挀攀猀 愀渀搀 刀攀琀甀爀渀猀ഊ(LOaR). Summary: the College of Arms have decided there's nothing ਀漀昀昀攀渀猀椀瘀攀 愀戀漀甀琀 瀀攀渀琀愀挀氀攀猀Ⰰ 爀攀最愀爀搀氀攀猀猀 漀昀 眀栀愀琀 䨀愀挀欀 䌀栀椀挀欀 洀愀礀 琀栀椀渀欀Ⰰ 猀漀ഊyou can register them in your heraldry. ਀ഊNext time someone tells you the Heralds are all bastards who make up ਀爀甀氀攀猀 琀漀 栀甀爀琀 瀀攀漀瀀氀攀 愀渀搀 渀攀瘀攀爀 氀椀猀琀攀渀 琀漀 猀攀渀猀攀Ⰰ 爀攀洀椀渀搀 琀栀攀洀 漀昀 琀栀椀猀⸀ഊ ਀㨀 䈀愀琀 㨀ഊ ਀∀䄀椀氀椀猀 䰀椀渀渀攀⸀ 䈀愀搀最攀⸀ ⠀䘀椀攀氀搀氀攀猀猀⤀ 䄀 洀甀氀氀攀琀 漀昀 昀椀瘀攀 瀀漀椀渀琀猀 瘀漀椀搀攀搀 愀渀搀ഊinterlaced within and conjoined to an annulet azure. ਀吀栀攀爀攀 椀猀 愀 氀漀渀最 栀椀猀琀漀爀礀 漀昀 爀甀氀椀渀最猀 爀攀最愀爀搀椀渀最 琀栀攀 甀渀爀攀最椀猀琀攀爀愀戀椀氀椀琀礀 漀昀ഊmullets voided and interlaced (also known as pentacles or pentagrams), ਀戀攀最椀渀渀椀渀最 愀猀 攀愀爀氀礀 愀猀 ㄀㤀㜀㌀ 戀礀 䤀漀猀攀瀀栀 漀昀 䰀漀挀欀猀氀攀礀 愀渀搀 椀渀挀氀甀搀椀渀最 爀甀氀椀渀最猀ഊor correspondence in 1976, 1978, 1979, 1990, 1994, and 1996. The ruling ਀椀渀 ㄀㤀㤀　 眀愀猀 愀瀀瀀攀愀氀攀搀 琀漀 琀栀攀 䈀漀愀爀搀 漀昀 䐀椀爀攀挀琀漀爀猀Ⰰ 愀猀 爀攀昀氀攀挀琀攀搀 愀渀搀ഊdiscussed on the April 1991 Cover Letter. As specified in that Cover ਀䰀攀琀琀攀爀Ⰰ 琀栀攀 瀀爀椀洀愀爀礀 愀爀最甀洀攀渀琀 愀最愀椀渀猀琀 琀栀攀 爀攀最椀猀琀攀爀愀戀椀氀椀琀礀 漀昀 琀栀椀猀 挀栀愀爀最攀ഊwas that "the device was not returned for its specific religious content ਀愀猀 瀀攀爀挀攀椀瘀攀搀 戀礀 琀栀攀 猀甀戀洀椀琀琀攀爀 愀渀搀 栀攀爀 挀漀ⴀ爀攀氀椀最椀漀渀椀猀琀猀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 昀漀爀 琀栀攀ഊspecific anti-religious content as perceived by a far larger number of ਀瀀攀漀瀀氀攀Ⰰ 戀漀琀栀 眀椀琀栀椀渀 愀渀搀 眀椀琀栀漀甀琀 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀⸀∀ 吀栀攀 ㄀㤀㤀㘀 爀甀氀椀渀最 眀愀猀 愀渀 愀瀀瀀攀愀氀ഊof a return from 1994, and after considering the various arguments, the ਀琀栀攀渀 䰀愀甀爀攀氀 䬀椀渀最 漀昀 䄀爀洀猀Ⰰ 䐀愀✀甀搀 椀戀渀 䄀甀搀愀Ⰰ 昀攀氀琀 ∀挀漀洀瀀攀氀氀攀搀 琀漀 甀瀀栀漀氀搀 琀栀攀ഊprior precedents disallowing the registration of mullets of five points ਀瘀漀椀搀攀搀 愀渀搀 椀渀琀攀爀氀愀挀攀搀Ⰰ 眀栀攀琀栀攀爀 眀椀琀栀椀渀 愀渀搀 挀漀渀樀漀椀渀攀搀 琀漀 愀渀 愀渀渀甀氀攀琀 漀爀ഊstanding by themselves. [Based on the evidence presented, s]uch charges ਀猀琀椀氀氀 愀爀攀 瀀攀爀挀攀椀瘀攀搀 戀礀 愀 猀椀最渀椀昀椀挀愀渀琀 瀀漀爀琀椀漀渀 漀昀 琀栀攀 瀀漀瀀甀氀愀琀椀漀渀 愀猀 嬀愀崀ഊ"satanic symbol", and hence cannot be registered by the College." ਀ഊThe current submission presents extensive documentation showing that the ਀瀀攀渀琀愀挀氀攀 漀爀 瀀攀渀琀愀最爀愀洀 椀猀 渀漀 氀漀渀最攀爀 瀀攀爀挀攀椀瘀攀搀 愀猀 愀 猀瀀攀挀椀昀椀挀愀氀氀礀 猀愀琀愀渀椀挀ഊsymbol. Instead, it has become more closely recognized as a symbol of ਀琀栀攀 圀椀挀挀愀渀 爀攀氀椀最椀漀渀⸀ 䘀漀爀 攀砀愀洀瀀氀攀Ⰰ 琀栀攀 唀匀 洀椀氀椀琀愀爀礀 猀攀爀瘀椀挀攀猀 栀愀瘀攀ഊacknowledged the Wiccan religion in their Chaplain's handbook since at ਀氀攀愀猀琀 ㄀㤀㤀　Ⰰ 愀渀搀Ⰰ 洀漀爀攀 爀攀挀攀渀琀氀礀Ⰰ 琀栀攀 愀猀猀漀挀椀愀琀椀漀渀 漀昀 琀栀攀 瀀攀渀琀愀挀氀攀 眀椀琀栀 琀栀攀ഊWiccan religion was acknowledged by the US government when the pentacle ਀戀攀挀愀洀攀 琀栀攀 圀椀挀挀愀渀 爀攀氀椀最椀漀甀猀 猀礀洀戀漀氀 愀氀氀漀眀攀搀 漀渀 琀栀攀 最漀瘀攀爀渀洀攀渀琀ⴀ昀甀爀渀椀猀栀攀搀ഊheadstones of fallen US soldiers. ਀ഊWe received a large amount of commentary on this submission from the ਀䌀漀氀氀攀最攀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 琀栀攀 挀漀渀猀攀渀猀甀猀 眀愀猀 漀瘀攀爀眀栀攀氀洀椀渀最氀礀 椀渀 昀愀瘀漀爀 漀昀 搀爀漀瀀瀀椀渀最 琀栀攀ഊban on this charge. We hereby overturn the ruling from 1996, and allow ਀琀栀攀 爀攀最椀猀琀爀愀琀椀漀渀 漀昀 洀甀氀氀攀琀猀 瘀漀椀搀攀搀 愀渀搀 椀渀琀攀爀氀愀挀攀搀Ⰰ 戀漀琀栀 椀渀瘀攀爀琀攀搀 愀渀搀ഊnot, and both conjoined to annulets and not, so long as the overall ਀搀攀猀椀最渀 椀渀 眀栀椀挀栀 琀栀椀猀 挀栀愀爀最攀 椀猀 甀猀攀搀 搀漀攀猀 渀漀琀 漀琀栀攀爀眀椀猀攀 瘀椀漀氀愀琀攀 刀昀匀 䤀堀⸀㈀ഊOffensive Religious Symbolism." ਀ഊ ਀䐀愀琀攀㨀 吀甀攀Ⰰ 㤀 䨀甀渀 ㈀　　㤀 ㈀㈀㨀㐀㐀㨀㔀㐀 ⬀　㠀　　ഊFrom: Columb mac Diarmata ਀匀甀戀樀攀挀琀㨀 刀攀㨀 嬀䰀漀挀栀愀挀崀 倀攀渀琀愀挀氀攀猀 䄀爀攀 刀攀最椀猀琀攀爀愀戀氀攀ഊTo: "The Shambles, the SCA Lochac mailing list" ਀ഊOn Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 10:41 PM, Mark Calderwood wrote: ਀伀渀 ㄀　⼀　㘀⼀㈀　　㤀Ⰰ 愀琀 ㄀㈀㨀　㔀 䄀䴀Ⰰ 倀愀甀氀 匀氀攀椀最栀 眀爀漀琀攀㨀ഊ> Did anyone stop to ask whether it was a *period* charge? ਀ഊThat was never in dispute: it's quite common enough in period for our ਀猀琀愀渀搀愀爀搀猀⸀ഊ--------------- ਀ഊ> Examples in period? ਀ഊhttp://www.s-gabriel.org/086 ਀ഊColumb ਀ഊ ਀䐀愀琀攀㨀 圀攀搀Ⰰ ㄀　 䨀甀渀 ㈀　　㤀 ㄀㄀㨀㌀㜀㨀　㔀 ⬀㄀　　　 ⠀䔀匀吀⤀ഊFrom: "Michael Niemann" ਀匀甀戀樀攀挀琀㨀 刀攀㨀 嬀䰀漀挀栀愀挀崀 倀攀渀琀愀挀氀攀猀 䄀爀攀 刀攀最椀猀琀攀爀愀戀氀攀ഊTo: "The Shambles, the SCA Lochac mailing list" ਀ഊOn Wed, June 10, 2009 10:55, Giles wrote: ਀伀渀 ㄀　⼀　㘀⼀㈀　　㤀Ⰰ 愀琀 㠀㨀㈀㌀ 䄀䴀Ⰰ 匀琀攀昀愀渀 氀椀 刀漀甀猀 眀爀漀琀攀㨀ഊ<<< In fact, there was quite a discussion on this very list within ਀琀栀攀 氀愀猀琀 挀漀甀瀀氀攀 漀昀 眀攀攀欀猀⼀洀漀渀琀栀猀⸀ 儀甀椀琀攀 愀渀 愀洀漀甀渀琀 漀昀 攀瘀椀搀攀渀挀攀 昀漀爀 琀栀攀ഊpentagrams use in period heraldry was given. >>> ਀ഊWhich I've been reading, but not seen any "evidence" on. ਀吀栀攀 氀椀琀攀爀愀爀礀 挀椀琀愀琀椀漀渀 昀爀漀洀 猀椀洀瀀氀礀 挀愀渀✀琀 戀攀 猀琀爀攀琀挀栀攀搀 琀栀愀琀 昀愀爀㬀 琀栀攀 匀琀ഊGabriel is a tiny bit better. ਀ഊA quick look on the net and I found ਀栀琀琀瀀㨀⼀⼀眀眀眀⸀渀最眀⸀渀氀⼀椀渀琀⼀搀氀搀⼀欀⼀欀渀椀攀氀椀渀最⸀栀琀洀 ⸀ 䤀 猀甀猀瀀攀挀琀 琀栀攀爀攀 愀爀攀 瀀氀攀渀琀礀 漀昀ഊperiod instances like it in Germany, Poland etc. Usage on official seals ਀猀漀甀渀搀猀 氀椀欀攀 攀瘀椀搀攀渀挀攀 琀漀 洀攀 ⠀瀀爀攀猀甀洀椀渀最 琀栀攀椀爀 氀椀琀攀爀愀琀甀爀攀 栀漀氀搀猀 甀瀀 琀漀ഊscrutiny). ਀ഊCian. ਀ഊ ਀䐀愀琀攀㨀 圀攀搀Ⰰ ㄀　 䨀甀渀 ㈀　　㤀 ㄀㄀㨀㔀㐀㨀㐀㠀 ⬀㄀　　　ഊFrom: "Stark, Karen" ਀匀甀戀樀攀挀琀㨀 嬀䰀漀挀栀愀挀崀 䨀甀猀琀 愀 焀甀椀挀欀 瀀攀爀甀猀愀氀 漀渀 琀栀攀 椀渀琀攀爀眀攀戀⸀⸀⸀ 匀礀洀戀漀氀猀⸀⸀⸀ഊ [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] ਀吀漀㨀 ∀✀氀漀挀栀愀挀 愀琀 猀挀愀⸀漀爀最⸀愀甀✀∀ 㰀氀漀挀栀愀挀 愀琀 猀挀愀⸀漀爀最⸀愀甀㸀ഊ ਀栀琀琀瀀㨀⼀⼀眀眀眀⸀昀氀椀挀欀爀⸀挀漀洀⼀瀀栀漀琀漀猀⼀欀樀昀渀樀礀⼀㈀㈀㐀㈀㈀㠀㌀㐀㠀⼀ഊ ਀䐀漀攀猀 愀渀 愀挀琀甀愀氀 昀氀漀漀爀 洀漀稀愀椀挀 挀漀甀渀琀 愀猀 攀瘀椀搀攀渀挀攀㼀ഊ ਀䬀愀猀栀椀愀ഊ ਀ഊDate: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:04:37 +1000 ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 䈀爀愀搀搀漀渀 䜀椀氀攀猀 㰀戀爀愀搀搀漀渀最椀氀攀猀 愀琀 最洀愀椀氀⸀挀漀洀㸀ഊSubject: Re: [Lochac] Pentacles Are Registerable ਀吀漀㨀 ∀吀栀攀 匀栀愀洀戀氀攀猀Ⰰ 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀 䰀漀挀栀愀挀 洀愀椀氀椀渀最 氀椀猀琀∀ 㰀氀漀挀栀愀挀 愀琀 猀挀愀⸀漀爀最⸀愀甀㸀ഊ ਀䠀椀 䜀椀氀攀猀Ⰰ 椀琀 椀猀 䜀椀氀攀猀℀ഊ ਀䤀 栀愀瘀攀 渀漀 攀瘀椀搀攀渀挀攀 昀漀爀 琀栀攀 瀀攀渀琀愀渀最氀攀 愀猀 愀 栀攀爀愀氀搀椀挀 挀栀愀爀最攀 攀砀挀攀瀀琀 昀爀漀洀ഊmedieval fiction, however it is a well known object in period art and ਀猀攀愀氀猀⸀ 䤀渀 琀栀椀猀 挀愀猀攀 琀栀攀 瀀攀渀琀愀渀最氀攀 椀猀 愀 洀甀氀氀攀琀 漀昀 㔀 瀀漀椀渀琀猀 ⠀愀 眀攀氀氀ഊknown heraldic charge) voided and interlaced (a standard line of ਀搀椀瘀椀猀椀漀渀 琀爀攀愀琀洀攀渀琀⤀⸀ 吀栀攀 瘀漀椀搀椀渀最 愀渀搀 椀渀琀攀爀氀愀挀椀渀最 漀昀 愀 洀甀氀氀攀琀 漀昀 㘀ഊpoints is so common in period that it is a good example. There is no ਀栀攀爀愀氀搀椀挀 爀攀愀猀漀渀 眀栀礀 䤀 挀漀甀氀搀 渀漀琀 瘀漀椀搀 愀渀搀 椀渀琀攀爀氀愀挀攀 洀甀氀氀攀琀猀 漀昀 愀渀礀ഊnumber, saltires, crosses, etc, any ordinary that is geometric really. ਀ഊThe College of Arms has also registered many artistic motifs and trade ਀琀漀漀氀 漀戀樀攀挀琀猀 昀爀漀洀 瀀攀爀椀漀搀 琀栀愀琀 渀攀瘀攀爀 愀挀琀甀愀氀氀礀 洀愀搀攀 椀琀 琀漀 搀攀瀀椀挀琀椀漀渀 椀渀ഊheraldry. Standardised representation is required, but in this case ਀琀栀攀 最攀漀洀攀琀爀椀挀 渀愀琀甀爀攀 漀昀 琀栀椀猀 挀栀愀爀最攀 愀渀搀 琀栀攀 昀愀挀琀 琀栀愀琀 椀琀 椀猀 猀琀椀氀氀ഊbeing used today helps with recognition. ਀ഊArtistic motifs from styles that aren't concurrent with heraldic art, ਀漀爀 眀椀琀栀 渀漀渀 猀琀愀渀搀愀爀搀椀猀攀搀 搀攀瀀椀挀琀椀漀渀猀Ⰰ 愀爀攀 氀攀猀猀 氀椀欀攀氀礀 琀漀 戀攀 爀攀最椀猀琀攀爀攀搀⸀ഊFor example, Celtic Knotwork. Beautiful art; not heraldry. ਀ഊThe period nature of the motif and its use in SCA heraldry was never ਀愀渀 椀猀猀甀攀Ⰰ 椀琀 眀愀猀 猀漀氀攀氀礀 眀栀攀琀栀攀爀 琀栀攀 漀昀昀攀渀挀攀 最攀渀攀爀愀琀攀搀 戀礀 琀栀攀 搀椀猀瀀氀愀礀ഊof that symbol would do our organisation harm. As our general ਀猀漀挀椀攀琀礀✀猀 瀀攀爀挀攀瀀琀椀漀渀猀 栀愀瘀攀 挀栀愀渀最攀搀Ⰰ 琀栀攀 䌀漀氀氀攀最攀 漀昀 䄀爀洀猀 栀愀猀 戀攀攀渀 愀戀氀攀ഊto change it's ruling. ਀ഊMore power to them for that. ਀ഊBaron Giles. ਀ഊ ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 吀椀洀 䴀挀䐀愀渀椀攀氀 㰀琀洀挀搀 愀琀 瀀愀渀椀砀⸀挀漀洀㸀ഊDate: June 10, 2009 12:28:20 PM CDT ਀吀漀㨀 ∀䠀攀爀愀氀搀猀 䰀椀猀琀Ⰰ 䬀椀渀最搀漀洀 漀昀 䄀渀猀琀攀漀爀爀愀 ⴀ 匀䌀䄀Ⰰ 䤀渀挀⸀∀ 㰀栀攀爀愀氀搀猀 愀琀 氀椀猀琀猀⸀愀渀猀琀攀漀爀爀愀⸀漀爀最㸀ഊCc: StefanliRous at austin.rr.com ਀匀甀戀樀攀挀琀㨀 刀攀㨀 倀攀渀琀愀最爀愀洀猀 渀漀眀 愀氀氀漀眀攀搀 椀渀 匀䌀䄀 栀攀爀愀氀搀爀礀ഊ ਀伀渀 圀攀搀Ⰰ ㄀　 䨀甀渀 ㈀　　㤀Ⰰ 䌀栀椀氀搀攀爀猀Ⰰ 䨀攀昀昀 㰀䨀攀昀昀⸀䌀栀椀氀搀攀爀猀 愀琀 琀琀甀栀猀挀⸀攀搀甀㸀 眀爀漀琀攀㨀ഊ> I am sure everyone saw the post by Stefan on the Ansteorra list. ਀ഊI gave up on the Ansteorra list years ago, so, no. ਀⠀爀甀洀洀愀最攀 爀甀洀愀洀最攀⤀ഊ ਀䌀甀爀爀攀渀琀氀礀 漀渀氀礀 漀渀攀 猀洀愀氀氀 昀漀氀氀漀眀ⴀ甀瀀⸀ഊ ਀㰀㰀㰀 圀栀愀琀 猀瀀攀挀椀昀椀挀愀氀氀礀 洀愀欀攀 愀 瀀攀渀琀愀最爀愀洀 漀爀 漀琀栀攀爀 ✀爀攀氀椀最椀漀甀猀✀ 猀礀洀戀漀氀猀ഊoffensive? >>> ਀ഊIn heraldic submissions, the opinions expressed in heraldic commentary. ਀ഊThe rest of this note is just an expansion of those 9 words. ਀ഊI was a clerk for Da'ud ibn Auda when he had to deal with it in 1994 ਀㰀栀琀琀瀀㨀⼀⼀栀攀爀愀氀搀爀礀⸀猀挀愀⸀漀爀最⼀氀漀愀爀⼀㄀㤀㤀㐀⼀　㜀⼀氀愀爀⸀栀琀洀氀㸀 愀渀搀 ㄀㤀㤀㘀ഊ. ਀吀栀攀爀攀 眀攀爀攀 㐀㌀ 瀀愀最攀猀 漀昀 挀漀洀洀攀渀琀愀爀礀 椀渀 ㄀㤀㤀㐀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 愀 挀漀洀瀀愀爀愀戀氀攀 愀洀漀甀渀琀 椀渀ഊ1996. As he wrote in 1994 and quoted in 1996, ਀ഊ As Couronne Rouge noted, however, "the issue in question is modern ਀   漀昀昀攀渀猀攀∀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 挀漀渀猀椀搀攀爀愀琀椀漀渀 漀昀 琀栀椀猀 搀攀瘀椀挀攀 栀愀猀 琀漀 昀漀挀甀猀 漀渀 琀栀愀琀ഊ issue as the central one here. ਀ഊHe quoted from the CoA Rules for Submission, including RfS I.2, "No ਀渀愀洀攀 漀爀 愀爀洀漀爀礀 眀椀氀氀 戀攀 爀攀最椀猀琀攀爀攀搀 琀栀愀琀 洀愀礀 戀攀 漀昀昀攀渀猀椀瘀攀 琀漀 愀ഊsignificant segment of the Society or the general population." ਀吀栀攀 ㄀㤀㤀㘀 爀甀氀椀渀最 挀椀琀攀猀 愀渀搀 焀甀漀琀攀猀 愀 氀漀琀 洀漀爀攀 漀昀 琀栀攀 攀瘀椀搀攀渀挀攀 瀀爀攀猀攀渀琀攀搀Ⰰഊshowing that the pentagram was viewed as Satanic and offensive by a ਀氀漀琀 漀昀 琀栀攀 渀漀渀ⴀ匀䌀䄀 瀀漀瀀甀氀愀挀攀⸀  䈀漀琀栀 爀甀氀椀渀最猀 攀渀搀攀搀ഊ ਀   䄀昀琀攀爀 开洀甀挀栀开 挀漀渀猀椀搀攀爀愀琀椀漀渀 愀渀搀 琀栀漀甀最栀琀 愀渀搀 挀愀爀攀昀甀氀 爀攀ⴀ爀攀愀搀椀渀最 漀昀ഊ all of the documentation and commentary, I feel compelled to ਀   甀瀀栀漀氀搀 琀栀攀 瀀爀椀漀爀 瀀爀攀挀攀搀攀渀琀猀 搀椀猀愀氀氀漀眀椀渀最 琀栀攀 爀攀最椀猀琀爀愀琀椀漀渀 漀昀ഊ mullets of five points voided and interlaced, whether within and ਀   挀漀渀樀漀椀渀攀搀 琀漀 愀渀 愀渀渀甀氀攀琀 漀爀 猀琀愀渀搀椀渀最 戀礀 琀栀攀洀猀攀氀瘀攀猀⸀  匀甀挀栀 挀栀愀爀最攀猀ഊ still are perceived by a significant portion of the population as ਀   ∀琀栀攀 匀愀琀愀渀椀挀 猀礀洀戀漀氀∀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 栀攀渀挀攀 挀愀渀渀漀琀 戀攀 爀攀最椀猀琀攀爀攀搀 戀礀 琀栀攀ഊ College. ਀ഊThat's the key -- he had to read and consider the commentary and ਀搀攀挀椀搀攀 眀栀攀琀栀攀爀 琀栀攀 瀀攀渀琀愀最爀愀洀 眀愀猀 ∀漀昀昀攀渀猀椀瘀攀 琀漀 愀 猀椀最渀椀昀椀挀愀渀琀 猀攀最洀攀渀琀∀⸀ഊ ਀䄀渀搀 椀琀 眀愀猀 愀 栀愀爀搀 搀攀挀椀猀椀漀渀 琀栀愀琀 栀攀 猀琀爀甀最最氀攀搀 眀椀琀栀Ⰰ 最椀瘀攀渀 琀栀攀 猀琀爀漀渀最ഊPOSITIVE feelings that most people in the SCA had towards the ਀瀀攀渀琀愀最爀愀洀⸀  䠀攀 甀猀攀搀 琀栀攀 眀漀爀搀 ∀挀漀洀瀀攀氀氀攀搀∀ 昀漀爀 愀 瘀攀爀礀 最漀漀搀 爀攀愀猀漀渀⸀ഊ ਀䠀攀渀挀攀 琀栀攀 眀漀爀搀椀渀最 漀昀 圀爀攀愀琀栀✀猀 猀琀愀琀攀洀攀渀琀猀 椀渀 琀栀攀 渀攀眀 爀攀最椀猀琀爀愀琀椀漀渀Ⰰഊ ਀䠀攀 猀栀漀眀攀搀 琀栀愀琀 愀琀琀椀琀甀搀攀猀 栀愀瘀攀 挀栀愀渀最攀搀 戀攀琀眀攀攀渀 ㄀㤀㤀㘀 愀渀搀 ㈀　　㤀Ⰰ 愀渀搀ഊtherefore the past reason for return no longer applies, therefore it's ਀爀攀最椀猀琀攀爀愀戀氀攀 ⠀挀攀琀攀爀椀猀 瀀愀爀椀戀甀猀⤀⸀ഊ ਀   吀栀攀 挀甀爀爀攀渀琀 猀甀戀洀椀猀猀椀漀渀 瀀爀攀猀攀渀琀猀 攀砀琀攀渀猀椀瘀攀 搀漀挀甀洀攀渀琀愀琀椀漀渀 猀栀漀眀椀渀最ഊ that the pentacle or pentagram is no longer perceived as a ਀   猀瀀攀挀椀昀椀挀愀氀氀礀 猀愀琀愀渀椀挀 猀礀洀戀漀氀⸀  䤀渀猀琀攀愀搀Ⰰ 椀琀 栀愀猀 戀攀挀漀洀攀 洀漀爀攀 挀氀漀猀攀氀礀ഊ recognized as a symbol of the Wiccan religion. For example, the ਀   唀匀 洀椀氀椀琀愀爀礀 猀攀爀瘀椀挀攀猀 栀愀瘀攀 愀挀欀渀漀眀氀攀搀最攀搀 琀栀攀 圀椀挀挀愀渀 爀攀氀椀最椀漀渀 椀渀ഊ their Chaplain's handbook since at least 1990, and, more recently, ਀   琀栀攀 愀猀猀漀挀椀愀琀椀漀渀 漀昀 琀栀攀 瀀攀渀琀愀挀氀攀 眀椀琀栀 琀栀攀 圀椀挀挀愀渀 爀攀氀椀最椀漀渀 眀愀猀ഊ acknowledged by the US government when the pentacle became the ਀   圀椀挀挀愀渀 爀攀氀椀最椀漀甀猀 猀礀洀戀漀氀 愀氀氀漀眀攀搀 漀渀 琀栀攀 最漀瘀攀爀渀洀攀渀琀ⴀ昀甀爀渀椀猀栀攀搀ഊ headstones of fallen US soldiers. ਀ഊ We received a large amount of commentary on this submission from ਀   琀栀攀 䌀漀氀氀攀最攀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 琀栀攀 挀漀渀猀攀渀猀甀猀 眀愀猀 漀瘀攀爀眀栀攀氀洀椀渀最氀礀 椀渀 昀愀瘀漀爀 漀昀ഊ dropping the ban on this charge. We hereby overturn the ruling ਀   昀爀漀洀 ㄀㤀㤀㘀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 愀氀氀漀眀 琀栀攀 爀攀最椀猀琀爀愀琀椀漀渀 漀昀 洀甀氀氀攀琀猀 瘀漀椀搀攀搀 愀渀搀ഊ interlaced, both inverted and not, and both conjoined to annulets ਀   愀渀搀 渀漀琀Ⰰ 猀漀 氀漀渀最 愀猀 琀栀攀 漀瘀攀爀愀氀氀 搀攀猀椀最渀 椀渀 眀栀椀挀栀 琀栀椀猀 挀栀愀爀最攀 椀猀ഊ used does not otherwise violate RfS IX.2 Offensive Religious ਀   匀礀洀戀漀氀椀猀洀⸀ഊ ਀㰀㰀㰀 䤀昀 䤀 猀甀戀洀椀琀琀攀搀 漀渀攀 眀椀琀栀 愀 最漀愀琀 栀攀愀搀 椀渀猀椀搀攀 琀栀攀 瀀攀渀琀愀最爀愀洀⸀ 䐀漀攀猀 琀栀愀琀ഊmake it offensive? >>> ਀ഊThat would be judged by the opinions expressed in heraldic ਀挀漀洀洀攀渀琀愀爀礀⸀ഊ ਀吀栀攀 挀甀爀爀攀渀琀 刀甀氀攀猀 昀漀爀 匀甀戀洀椀猀猀椀漀渀 眀攀爀攀 椀渀琀攀渀搀攀搀 琀漀 瀀爀漀瘀椀搀攀 昀椀砀攀搀 爀甀氀攀猀ഊwhere possible. The rule of tincture is codified explicitly, for ਀攀砀愀洀瀀氀攀⸀ഊ ਀䈀甀琀 昀漀爀 愀 氀漀琀 漀昀 琀栀椀渀最猀Ⰰ 琀栀攀 氀漀渀最ⴀ琀椀洀攀 琀爀愀搀椀琀椀漀渀愀氀 眀漀爀搀椀渀最 椀猀 ∀✀吀椀猀 愀ഊjudgment call for Laurel, I'm afraid". Are these two designs too ਀瘀椀猀甀愀氀氀礀 猀椀洀椀氀愀爀 ⠀刀昀匀 堀⸀㔀⤀㼀  䤀猀 愀 渀愀洀攀 攀砀挀攀猀猀椀瘀攀氀礀 漀戀琀爀甀猀椀瘀攀氀礀 洀漀搀攀爀渀㼀ഊIs this name too evocative of major protected names (e.g., Order of ਀琀栀攀 䈀氀甀攀 䜀愀爀琀攀爀⤀㼀ഊ ਀䤀渀 猀甀挀栀 挀愀猀攀猀Ⰰ 䰀愀甀爀攀氀 ⠀漀爀Ⰰ 爀愀琀栀攀爀Ⰰ 琀栀攀 愀瀀瀀爀漀瀀爀椀愀琀攀 猀漀瘀攀爀攀椀最渀 漀昀 愀爀洀猀⤀ഊgoes by the commentary, not their own inclinations. It's weighing, ਀渀漀琀 樀甀猀琀 挀漀甀渀琀椀渀最㨀 瀀攀漀瀀氀攀 洀愀欀攀 戀攀琀琀攀爀 漀爀 眀漀爀猀攀 愀爀最甀洀攀渀琀猀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 猀漀洀攀ഊcommenters make sober judgments better. ਀ഊSo it was and is in the pentagram cases. ਀ഊ<<< Is Satanism the specific target of this? Or just satanic symbolism? >>> ਀ഊRfS XI.2 says Offensive Religious Symbolism. RfS I.2 talks about ਀漀昀昀攀渀猀攀 椀渀 最攀渀攀爀愀氀⸀ഊ ਀ഊDanet de Lyncoln ਀ⴀⴀ ഊTim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com ਀ഊ ਀䔀搀椀琀攀搀 戀礀 䴀愀爀欀 匀⸀ 䠀愀爀爀椀猀ऀ瀀攀渀琀愀最爀愀洀猀ⴀ洀猀最ऀ倀愀最攀 ㄀　 漀昀 ㄀㄀ഊ ਊ