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heraldry-msg – 9/24/12

 

Heraldry in history and the SCA.

 

NOTE: See also the files: Herald-Embro-art, heraldry-bks-msg, heraldry-tips-msg, mottoes1-msg, arms-humor-msg, flags-art, banners-msg, Field-Herldry-art, Sinister-Hand-art.

 

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NOTICE -

 

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

 

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

 

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

 

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

 

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

 

Thank you,

    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                          Stefan at florilegium.org

************************************************************************

 

"I tried sleep-teaching myself heraldry. Didn't help

me, but now my cats sort their food so the red bits

are on the white floor and the yellow bits stay in

the blue bowl."

 

From: tmcd at crl.com (Timothy A. McDaniel)

Newsgroups: alt.heraldry.sca

Subject: Re: Please help a newbie Herald!

Date: 20 Jun 1996 11:50:48 -0500

Organization: CRL Network Services      (415) 705-6060  [Login: guest]

 

In article <4q71nh$mb5 at hermes.acs.unt.edu>,

Randy Shipp <rshipp at flash.net> wrote:

 

>In the SCA, I've noticed some

>conventions that are a little different than some mundane standards.

>For instance, we say "Azure, a castle argent..." instead of "On a

>field azure, a castle argent...".

 

British custom is to just start with the field tincture(s).  I think

French (and presumably others similarly) start with "De gules, ...".

The SCA College of Arms started with an explicitly-stated bias for

recreating English armorial practices of about 1200-1450, so it's

understandable that we use the common English custom. In any event,

we're WRITING in English, so it makes sense there too to use British

custom.

 

>Seemingly contrary to that is the

>custom of using "Azure, on a bend argent three mullets sable" instead

>of "Azure, a bend argent charged with three mullets sable".  

 

"Charged with" is occasionally used in the SCA in odd cases to clarify

the blazon (e.g., "three plates each charged with a mullet gules").

 

Another difference I notice is that the SCA uses punctuation in blazon

and the English CoA doesn't.  The English view seems to be the

lawyer's view that punctuation leads to confusion, and any legal

blazon of something that's reasonable style shouldn't need

punctuation.

 

>Say, are the RfS online somewhere?

 

Using FTP, connect to fine.mess.cs.cmu.edu and cd to /usr/kvs/pub for

lots of interesting stuff -- the Armorial, Laurel LoARs back to 6/90,

Rules for Submission, Administrative Handbook (at least skim these

last two), ...

 

Using the Web, however, it's ftp://fine.mess.cs.cmu.edu/kvs/pub: omit

"/usr".

 

Iulstan, Morsulus Herald, has set up a Web page at

http://www.sca.org/heraldry/.  It has links to other places, and

points to his monthly infomercial on heraldic sources, a waty to

search the Armorial, a way to look at the Ordinary, et cetera.

 

I tend to avoid {www,bransle}.ucs.mun.ca.  For example, the Rules for

Submission and Admin Handbooks there are drafts I posted two years

ago.  The index of KWHS proceedings articles are also two years old.

--

Daniel de Lincoln

                             Tim McDaniel

                        Reply-To: tmcd at crl.com

                     (Work is mcdaniel at cpm.com.)

              Never use mcdaniel at mcdaniel.dallas.tx.us.

 

 

From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)

Newsgroups: alt.heraldry.sca

Subject: Re: Please help a newbie Herald!

Date: 20 Jun 1996 13:11:25 -0400

Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC

 

> I don't think that there were any hard and fast rules about blazoning, so

> long as you conveyed your meaning.

 

There are standard grammars of blazon in English, French, Italian, and

Spanish; and probably in other languages.  The Society uses a sub-set of

English blazonry, generally chosen for succinctness.

 

>  I would imagine that in different areas customs developed.  

 

Historically, that is definitely true.

 

> In the SCA, I've noticed some conventions that are a little different

> than some mundane standards.  For instance, we say "Azure, a castle

> argent..."  instead of "On a field azure, a castle argent...".

 

Standard English blazonry has not used "On a field azure,..." any time in

the last two centuries.  A good discussion of modern English blazonry can

be found in "Shield and Crest" by Julian Franklyn.  A slightly less useful

discussion is in A. C. Fox-Davies, "A Complete Guide to Heraldry".

 

Once you understand the structure of English blazonry, you can find good

discussions of Society blazonry in several Society publications, including

Compleat Anachronist #22 "Heraldry".

 

If you are interested in the early history of blazon, I recommend Gerard

Brault, "Early Blazon".  It discusses blazon in the 12th and 13th

centuries.

 

> Say, are the RfS online somewhere?

 

Yes.  You can find them at Elsbeth Roth's ftp site,

 

        ftp://fine.mess.cs.cmu.edu/usr/kvs/pub/

===========================================================================

Arval d'Espas Nord                                        mittle at panix.com

 

 

From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)

Newsgroups: alt.heraldry.sca

Subject: Re: SCA Heraldry, general

Date: 21 Aug 1996 14:25:45 -0400

Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC

 

> There's also the Academy of St. Gabriel (Arval Goodheart, please

> come to the argent courtesy herald; you have a message.).

 

Hmphm...snort?  Oh, right.  Justa sec...

 

The Academy of S. Gabriel is an unofficial heraldic constulation and

education group.  We take questions about period names and armory,

primarily from people trying to choose their own names and arms or from

local heralds who need help, and we try to provide expert advice.  We focus

on names and arms which fit the time and culture which interests our

client, though we also give advice on registering names and arms with the

SCA College of Arms.  

 

For more information, please read our web page

 

   http://www.us.itd.umich.edu/~ximenez/st.gabriel/

===========================================================================

Arval d'Espas Nord                                        mittle at panix.com

 

 

From: Joshua Mittleman <mittle at watson.ibm.com>

Newsgroups: alt.heraldry.sca

Subject: Re: Is counterchanged still legal?

Date: 7 Oct 1996 16:46:59 -0400

Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC

 

Greetings from Arval!  Fein wrote:

 

> I had settled on this because I was told that the charge I would prefer to

> use would probably hold up the whole process at the laural level because

> its on the "overused" list...  In this case a unicorns, both rampant

> (combatant) and passant.  

 

You were told widely-believed nonsense.  There are indeed lots of unicorns

registered, but it is _has_ been possible to register a unicorn.  It just

takes a little work before sending in the submission.

 

> Last weekend at War of the Diamonds, I was told by a friend of mine, [whos

> arms just passed and are delishiously scandlous, but thats another story]

> that somebody fairly high in meridies had instituting a ban on

> "counterchanged" blazons.

 

This is almost certainly a mis-understanding at some level.  In the remote

chance that some senior Meridien herald _is_ abusing his authority in this

manner, you could simply appeal the ruling to Laurel.

 

> Now this is where I start eating crow.  Since I never technically

> registered my device past the local level, then I may or may not be

> protected in the typical 'grandfather' clause.

 

There is no such thing as registration at the local level.  The only

registration is at the Society-wide level, i.e. with the Laurel King of

Arms.  If you haven't registered your arms with Laurel, then they are not

registered, period.  

 

Note that you don't _have_ to register your arms. You can use anything you

want, registered or not, and no herald has the authority to tell you

otherwise.  Of course, courtesy argues that you should avoid using arms

which will cause confusion of identity, and registration is one way to try

to accomplish that goal.  But not the only way.

 

I'm not sure what "grandfather clause" you have in mind.  There are only

two correct usages of that phrase in Society heraldry.

 

  (a) Once you register something with Laurel, it remains registered

      forever, unless you ask for it to be removed from the armorial.

      This rule is part of Corpora, and is not formally called a

      "grandfather clause", but is sometimes referred to that way.

 

  (b) Once you register something with Laurel, you and your close relatives

      will generally be allowed to re-use elements of that name or armory

      in future submissions, even if the rules have changed in ways that

      would otherwise prevent it.  This rule is part of the College of

      Arms' Rules for Submissions, and it is called the "grandfather

      clause".

 

Since you have nothing registered yet, there is no grandfather clause which

applies to you.

 

> However, since because of the way I'm looking at my arms now, there are

> no charges resting on the line of division, therefore 'technically' it is

> not counterchanged. and therefore I would just have define the tincutures

> a bit differently.

 

You mis-understand the word "counterchanged".  A single charge or a set of

charges are "counterchanged" if they lie on a divided field, and they

inherit their color from the opposite half of the divided field.  They do

not have to cross the line of division to be "counterchanged".  For

example: "Per pale gules and Or, two lions rampant counterchanged."  There

is a red lion on the gold half of the field and a gold lion on the red half

of the field.

 

In general, one does not use the term "counterchanged" to blazon the

tinctures of charges placed on other charges. Consider "Gules, a lion

rampant and on a chief Or three crescents gules" (red field with a gold

lion, and a gold chief with three red crescents).  We would not blazon this

"Gules, a lion and a chief Or, three crescents counterchanged".  

 

> First, assuming that I have described a passable device, then have I

> blazoned it correctly, or would it be better to do the "of the first" and

> "of the second" routine?

 

In Society heraldry, we don't use "of the first" etc.  We name the

tinctures.  

 

> Second, if two charges 'rampant' are facing each other and are then called

> 'combatant' what do you call it when you place together two passant charges

> as such?

 

Two beasts passant and facing each other are blazoned "passant respectant".

If they are facing away from each other, they are blazoned "passant

addorsed".

 

> And finally, should I just give up on trying to get a unicorn device passed

> and revert to the orginal plan?

 

If you want a unicorn, you'll get a unicorn.  But I think you should

consider simpler designs.  Both of the designs you blazoned as really too

complex for medieval armory.

 

> "Per chevron sable and argent two unicorns passant above a fools cap, two

> unicorns combatant on a cheif counterchanged all."  ,,, Just for

> referance, the fools cap is in the "chevron" area [can't remember my

> region-of-division-and-placement names right now] with the unicorns

> passant above and then a chief with the two unicorns combatant above

> that.

 

I think I know what you mean here: Per chevron sable and argent, two

unicorns passant respectant and a fool's cap counterchanged; and on a chief

argent, two unicorms combatant sable."  That is to say:

 

        ____________________________

        |                          |

        |    unicorn    unicorn    |

        |    rampant    rampant    |

        |     sable      sable    <---- argent

        |                          |

        |__________________________|

        |                          |

        |                          |            

sable -->  unicorn>    <unicorn   |

        |   passant      passant   |

        |   argent  /  \  argent   |

        |         /      \         |

        |       /          \       |

        |     /              \     |

        |   /       fool's     \   |

         \/          cap         \/

          \         sable        /

           \                    /

            \                  /

             \              <---- argent

              \______________/

 

 

Is this correct?  If so, then let me offer a couple comments.

 

Including the same beast is two different postures (passant and rampant) is

_very_ atypical of medieval heraldry.  I strongly suggest that you avoid

it.

 

Placing a tall, thin charge on a chief (like your unicorns rampant) is

generally not a good idea.  Because the long axis of the chief does not

match the long axis of the charge, you will be forced either to draw the

unicorns very small or the chief much too deep.  

 

Finally, I would note that it is more common in period armory for a pair of

beasts to be facing the _same_ way rather than facing toward or away from

each other.  

 

In fact, if you drop the charged chief altogether, and just go with the

charged "per chevron" field, you would have a very nice set of arms.  I am

guessing that the unicorn is more important to you than the fool's cap,

yes?  Then you may want to consider some other designs:

 

Per chevron sable and argent, three unicorns rampant counterchanged.

Per chevron sable and argent, a unicorn passant and in chief two fool's

  caps counterchanged.

===========================================================================

Arval d'Espas Nord                                        mittle at panix.com

 

 

From: ximenez at stimpy.us.itd.umich.edu (Alan Terlep)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Need Heraldry Help?

Date: 8 Jan 1997 16:07:24 GMT

 

Greetings to the Rialto from Alan Fairfax!

 

Everyone in the SCA has gone through the effort of coming up with a

name, and many people have attempted to design arms as well.  All too

often, people come up with a name, and eventually get around to

submitting it--only to find that their name and/or arms won't pass.

Others run into problems from the other end--they're interested in a

period name and arms, but can't find a herald in the area who knows

anything about 13th century Lithuanian naming practices or what a Spanish

warrior would put on his shield.

 

The Academy of S. Gabriel is attempting to solve both those problems.  We

are a group of heralds organized to help people in the SCA develop period

names and armory.  We can offer free consultations with some of the best

heralds in the SCA, and also have a growing collection of resources for

anyone interested in names and armory.  We discuss every request before we

send out an answer, so you won't get conflicting information from different

people.

 

The Academy Web Page can be found at

 

http://www.us.itd.umich.edu/~ximenez/s.gabriel/

 

Our email address

 

s.gabriel at umich.edu

 

People without net access are, of course, welcome to talk to us;

please send an SASE and information on what you're looking for to

 

Alan Terlep

1617 Washtenaw

Ann Arbor, MI 48104

 

The Academy has totally open membership, and we are looking for more

people.  Even if you don't have a great deal of heraldic experience,

you're more than welcome to join and learn.

 

Please spread the word--if you have a friend who needs heraldic

advice, tell them about us, or give this to your local herald.

If you have a relevant Web site, put us in it--we are trying to

reach as many people as possible.

 

In service,

 

Alan Fairfax

Herald-at-Large, Middle Kingdom

ximenez at umich.edu

 

 

From: Gretchen M Beck <grm+ at andrew.cmu.edu>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Need Heraldry Help?

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:42:05 -0500

Organization: Computer Operations, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

 

Excerpts from netnews.rec.org.sca: 9-Jan-97 Re:  Need Heraldry Help? by

Rowan126 at aol.com

> Well, I'm a bit confused in general and I'm new. What's this "approval"

> process?  You mean you can pick a name for yourself and a group of people

> could tell you that you cannot use it?  Granted, names like "Xena Warrior

> Princess" or "William Wallace" are innapropriate... but like I said, I'm a

> bit baffled by this.  On what criteria are names judged?  Augh, where do I

> even start?

 

Not quite.  You can --USE-- any name you want, including William

Wallace, and Xena Warrior Princess (course, a lot of folks will laugh at

you/give you a hard time if you do, but you can still use them)

 

Here's where the approval process comes in.  The SCA has a sub-group

known as the College of Arms: heralds who research and register names

and armory at the request of SCA members.  What the registration process

does is assure you that your name and armory meet some minimal set of

standards--i.e. they bear a passing resemblance to medieval names and

arms.

 

The Academy of Saint Gabriel is a group of heralds, but not officially

affliated with the SCA College of Arms.  Saint Gabriel's will research

names and armory and let you know if they meet stricter standards of

authenticity -- they don't answer the question "Will the SCA register

this name/arms", but rather "Would a person at a specific place and time

have used these names and arms."

 

------

Now, on choosing a name--it's always a good idea to do some research

before choosing a name.  I usually recommend that you choose a culture

first, then see what you can find about naming practices in that culture

in the middle ages.  This includes not only "what names were used", but

"how were the different parts of a name put together", and "how did

these things change over time."  Somewhere in the process, you'll want

to pick a time.  There's lots of good books and reference works

available.  If you don't want to do all that, many people do the "what

names were used" part, pick a first name, and let it go at that.  No

registration involved.  You might want to talk to the herald of your

local group, or check out the Academy of Saint Gabriel home page--it's

got both articles on name construction in various cultures, and a

bibliography name and heraldry references.

 

Hope this helps!

toodles, margaret

 

 

From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)

Newsgroups: alt.heraldry.sca

Subject: Re: Spiderweb?

Date: 16 Jan 1997 14:33:40 -0500

Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC

 

Greetings from Arval!  Julien de Montfort asked:

 

> I was wondering if anyone knows if the spiderweb was used very much in

> period arms?

 

It certainly was not common.  I'm not sure it was used at all.  Talan, do

you know?

 

> The device I'm thinking about (in non-blazon form, forgive me) is a black

> field with a silver spiderweb, a gold chief with three red quill pens.  An

> obvious 'pun' is there, as I'm my Canton's web writer (is a device that

> describes a person's job considered canting arms?), but since I do that for

> a real-world living too, I thought it appropriate. ;-)

 

It is quite common in period armory for artisans to use the tools of their

trades as charges in their arms, but that is not "canting".  Canting is

specifically using a charge because its name sounds similar to your

surname or the place where you live.  You might cant on your name by having

a tower on a hill as the primary charge.

 

Personally, I would like to discourage you from representing your modern

profession in your arms.  You would be introducing a purely modern

reference into something that ought to be purely part of your medieval

persona.

 

Quills are found in period armory, but squeezing three of them onto a chief

makes them awfully difficult to identify.  If you do decide to use them,

I'd suggest making them primary charges so that they can be more clearly

recognized.  

===========================================================================

Arval d'Espas Nord                                        mittle at panix.com

 

 

From: mittle at panix.com (Josh Mittleman)

Newsgroups: alt.heraldry.sca

Subject: Re: Spiderweb?

Date: 20 Jan 1997 14:30:28 -0500

Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC

 

Stephen Mumford (redline at catharsis.com) wrote:

 

> Actually, looking through some of my (admitadely meager) heraldry

> resources, there seems to be a number of ordinaries and subordinaries that

> I have seldom seen displayed that would help make fine arms -- fret and

> fretty are two that I have hardly ever seen. Methinks most people worry

> more about their charges themselves than the other elements that

> differentiate it from another...

 

Indeed.  Not nearly enough people think about _distinctive_ arms rather

than "meaningful" arms.

 

But be careful working from mundane heraldic texts. In a catalogue of

charges, _most_ of the charges listed will be rarities.  I strongly

recommend that if you can spend some time looking through a collection of

pictures of period arms, you do so.  You'll see how period arms were

composed, what sorts of charges were commonly used, etc.  A good place to

look is Joseph Foster, "The Dictionary of Heraldry."  Many Society heralds

own copies, and it can be found in many libraries and bookstores.

 

        Arval

 

 

From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: newbie questions

Date: 24 Feb 1997 17:24:44 -0500

Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC

 

Greetings from Arval!  

 

Erin d'Angers asked some basic questions about names and arms, and got

various answers.  I'd like to fill in a few details that other people

missed.  

 

> 1) How/Who do I submit my Standard/coat of arms?

 

You are not required to submit your arms to anyone. You _may_ register

your arms with the SCA College of Arms if you wish, but you are not obliged

to do so.  You can display your arms whether or not they are registered.

It is considered polite to make an effort to ensure that your arms are

reasonably authentic and not identical to the arms of people you are likely

to meet; submitting your arms to the College of Arms is one way to

do that, but not the only way.

 

> Once submitted, what's the usual length of time for turnaround approval?

 

It varies from kingdom to kingdom; anywhere from 4 to 10 months.

 

> 2) If or once the Heraldry insigna is approved, and I belong to a house

> or I become a squire, what are the rules and courtesy within the SCA

> regarding NOT wearing a knights/house's own coat of arms in Tourneys

> instead of your own?  I

 

Several people have said that you should absolutely never wear someone

else's arms.  That rule is neither universal in the Society nor correct for

all parts of our medieval period.

 

If you wear someone else's arms, you are representing him.  Heralds do that

all the time in the Society, just as they did in the Middle Ages.  

 

It is less common for one fighter to bear another fighters arms in combat

in the Society, but it is a perfectly appropriate thing to do, as long as

you have permission from the owner of the arms.  In effect, you would be

standing in for him on the field of honor, just as a herald stands in for

his master in other circumstances.  There are numerous examples in period &

in period literature of one fighter bearing the arms of another.

 

> 3) Last question is about names. Any guidelines about choosing a name? I

> have been warned about using names that are too boastful, etc. Can your

> name have two lines? Such as Erin the Merciful, and Erin of Angers, or

> does it have to be one or the other?

 

Various answers discussed registering primary and secondary names.  As

before, keep in mind that you do not have to register your name.  You may

do so, but you need not.

 

It is quite common in the Society to use more than one name.  And it is

excellent re-creation to do so, for personae based on most time and places

in our period.  In different circumstances, you would be known by different

descriptions.  If you give us an idea when and where you think your persona

is set, we can make more specific suggestions.

===========================================================================

Arval d'Espas Nord                                        mittle at panix.com

 

 

Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 19:59:38 -0400

From: Robert J Welenc <rjwelenc at erols.com>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re:Period (Was: orange history

 

>I would say that they are trying to document things according to the

>definition of the SCA as set forth in Corpora. As an organization there are

>set limits to certain defined things and those things are usually Eurocentric

>or confined to cultures that European nations came into contact with until

>1600 CE.

>Cavalier is an exception (1650 CE). Heraldry is an exception (1450 CE). And,

>IMO, cookery should be an exception (1450 CE). :-)

 

Good Gentle, Back In the Dim Dark Ages of the Society, the cutoff

date for heraldry was (I believe) 1485.  But for many years now it

has been the same 1600 CE as is called for in Corpora. <insert dark

and gloomy mutterings about 'tacky Tudor heraldry'...>  And in name

formation, we accept dates into the 'grey area' up to 1650.

 

Alanna Volchevo Lesa

Golden Dolphin Herald

Submissions, Atlantia

 

 

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:37:54 -0800 (PST)

From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Arms, was Mairi Ceilidh

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

--- AEllin Olafs dotter aellin at earthlink.net wrote:

>  I did ask if a merchant would have a device of any sort

> - like a trademark, or shipping marks (I've worked in modern import

> trade, and can reel off shipping marks for many department stores

> without stopping to think) but it seems that this came much later. Pity.

 

Not true.  According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the earliest recorded use of a trademark is 1571.  In 1571, R. Matthews was given letters patent to use a half-moon as his mark.

 

Huette

 

 

From: Hillary Greenslade <hillaryrg at yahoo.com>

Date: June 29, 2009 5:16:34 PM CDT

To: ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] needing some heraldry assist and artwork

 

<<< I have a task I am trying to complete... a coronet for someone very special.

The center piece for this will be a rampant child sinister..... Could

someone who is able draw me this? I would also need

permission to use it for the coronet as well :)

 

Chass the Arse aka Lord Charinthalis Del Sans of the

portable Chariot >>>

 

You may want to search on 'Heraldry ClipArt', as there are a number of sites out there, some SCA related, that maintain images for heraldry use:

http://www.heraldicclipart.com/

http://www.heraldryclipart.com/

http://heraldry-clipart.com/

http://www.digiserve.com/heraldry/clipart.htm

http://www.coatsofarms.addr.com/clipart.htm

http://www.princetonol.com/groups/iad/lessons/middle/herald.htm

http://genealogy.about.com/od/heraldry_clipart/Heraldry_Clipart_Pictures_Graphics.htm

 

You can also search on 'Heraldic Art':

http://www.heraldic-arts.com/index.htm

 

And if you look around at some of the various kingdom websites for their Heraldic office, you may find some other great links found or created by SCA members.  

http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/links.html

 

Good luck, Hillary

 

 

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 12:29:06 +1100

From: Paul Sleigh <bat at flurf.net>

Subject: Re: [Lochac] [announce] Heraldry fees, submissions and

      registrations.

To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"

      <lochac at lochac.sca.org>

 

2010/1/5 Grooby, Peter <Peter.Grooby at airways.co.nz>:

<<< What is the current 'state of the art' with respect to the format of colour device submissions?

Is a quality laser printed printout acceptable or do they still need to done with felt-tips/paint? >>>

 

From the unofficial heraldry FAQ for the kingdom [of Lochac]:

<http://flurf.net/heraldry/papers>;

 

You must not use pencils, crayons or colour printers, whether inkjet

or laser, to produce your colour copies.

 

Colour photocopiers are also right out: when I was baronial herald,

they were still allowed on a case-by-case basis, but the colour

reproduction was utterly random and I?m not surprised that the policy

is now to avoid that source of pain.

 

You should use textas (?markers? if you?re American), and the absolute

best are the Crayola Classic markers you can find at most good

stationery stores.

 

And here's more information than you'll ever need about textas

(markers) and the like: <http://flurf.net/heraldry/textas>; and

<http://flurf.net/heraldry/texta-details>;

 

The short explanation is that colour inkjet and laser printer inks are

sticky, so they can glue pages together.  They also don't reproduce

the colours on the screen with any kind of reliability, and they fade

with time and heat.  They're convenient only for a few weeks before

these flaws come to the fore, and the results are nasty.

 

: Bat, Mortar :

 

 

Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 15:42:34 +1300

From: tamara at suncrow.com

Subject: Re: [Lochac] Heraldry fees,      submissions and registrations.

      [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

To: lochac at lochac.sca.org

 

Quoting Al Muckart <silver at where.else.net.nz>:

<< On 5/01/2010, at 3:04 PM, Stark, Karen wrote:

< I have a stupid question, how come you can't use a good colour laser copier?

Kashia (who's been putting off submitting her device for at least  

5yrs now)...  :-) >

>> 

 

Because while the colors used by some copiers/printers are stable over  

time and under various conditions, many if not most of them cause  

problems -- either they are sticky, or the red turns orange or the  

purple turns grey or the yellow disappears completely, etc.  There's  

no way to tell whether any given printer/copier good until after the  

submission has been rained on in the post, sat in the back window of a  

hot car, and been kept in the filing cabinets in a  

non-climate-controlled garage for twenty-five years.

 

Having accurate color pictures is important because:

 

<< Because the SCA CoH, unlike every other heraldic authority in the

world, registers the emblazon (the picture on your form) not the blazon

(the heraldic description of said picture).

 

It's stupid, and causes far more problems than it solves, but it's the

Way Things Are Done(TM). >>

 

Which is not stupid if you consider that for every other heraldic  

authority in the world, you don't get to design your own arms -- a  

professional herald does it for you.  You don't have to know the  

rules; you don't have to "speak heraldese". You take what you get:  

you don't have a nice SCA herald trying to help you get what you want.

 

How many people on this list know the difference between "three swords  

palewise" and "three swords in pale" ? How many would rather not have  

to know to submit a device ?

 

Kazimira

 

 

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 14:46:37 +1100

From: Paul Sleigh <bat at flurf.net>

Subject: Re: [Lochac] Heraldry fees,      submissions and registrations.

      [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"

      <lochac at lochac.sca.org>

 

2010/1/5 Rob Bolin <rob at unigon.tv>:

<<< IANAH but last time I checked, the CoH didn't look through reams and reams

of pretty pictures to see in any conflicted. They look through the list of

blazons to check conflict... >>>

 

I wish Shauna Ragged Staff were here.  She's the herald in the College

of Arms who maintains the files for the whole of the SCA.  She'll tell

you all the ways the emblazons are used long after they're filed.  One

obvious one is for visual checks.  For example, my wife's device is

<Gules, a pile Or>, which is a yellow triangle issuing from the top of

the device, on a red field.  This conflicted with Fearmac McLeod,

<Barry and per pale sable and argent, chausse gules>.  To check that

there was a visual conflict, I believe the file was examined.  Baron

Fearmac's device has what looks like <Gules, a pile barry sable and

argent> but blazoned a totally different way.  He kindly gave

permission to conflict, so we got it passed.  But it's a good example

of the unintended consequences of a complex system.

 

<<< I, too, was always told that the emblazon was

just there to provide additional information on your preferred

arrangement. >>>

 

That's one reason, but there are many more.

 

: Bat :

 

 

Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 16:49:52 +1300

From: Wakeline <chollitt at ieee.org>

Subject: Re: [Lochac] Heraldry fees,      submissions and registrations.

      [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

To: The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list <lochac at lochac.sca.org>

 

Rob Bolin wrote:

<<< IANAH but last time I checked, the CoH didn't look through reams and reams

of pretty pictures to see in any conflicted. They look through the list of

blazons to check conflict... >>>

 

The CoA look at the pictures much more frequently than might be

expected. As you say, the vast majority of devices can be cleared of

conflict by looking at the blazon, but I believe that they need to do a

file pull on a dozen or so submissions a month at Laurel level to do a

visual comparison.

 

Wakeline

 

 

Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 18:41:03 +1300

From: Wakeline <chollitt at ieee.org>

Subject: Re: [Lochac] herald questions

To: The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list <lochac at lochac.sca.org>

 

Stefan li Rous wrote:

<<< It is apparently  

possible to pass on a device using a heraldic will, but I don't know  

how much that is done. Or even the details about how this is done. >>>

 

It is pretty straightforward. You simply send a letter through the

normal heraldic channels. There are several standard wordings in

appendix  of the Administrative handbook of the College of Arms

(http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/admin.html#APPENDIXD), but you

are not constrained to use those. Mind you, if you were to try something too

obscure it Laurel would return it as being unworkable.

 

<<< It would seem that there would be an accumulation of no longer used  devices. >>>

 

Yes, there already is. It will get worse of course.

 

<<< I managed to register a simple, straight-forward device over  

15 years ago, but I wondered then how much longer this could be done.  

(It can seen on the Florilegium web site) I think it is still  

possible, although some charges are getting rather hard to do. Try  

registering anything with a lion on it for example. >>>

 

It is still possible. Obviously some things are getting more difficult,

but heraldic space is a very long way from being "full" at this stage.

In the absence of any rule changes I would expect that we would still be

able to register strikingly simple armory for decades yet. But, as you

suggest, it will become increasingly more interesting to find them.

 

<<< A single, unused device does not use up only one "slot" but also keeps  

any other similar device from being registered unless it a certain  

number of minor or major differences apart. I don't remember the exact  

details. >>>

 

We don't have major and minor differences anymore, but your point is

well taken. One of the matters under consideration in the current rule

review is whether the required difference between devices can be

reduced. That could open up heraldic space significantly.

 

<<< What was the solution for this same thing in period? There wasn't one  

single registry so I guess it was possible to have the same device/

cost of arms registered to different people in different countries, so  

maybe this was less of a problem. >>>

 

A real medieval heraldic jurisdiction had far fewer pieces of armory

than the SCA already has. They also had the use of various cadency

systems to manage related individuals, which we don't have in the SCA

(not for registration anyway). That allowed a more dense "packing" of

heraldic space if I can put it that way. The current SCA system is based

on requiring any two registrations to be at least two cadency steps

removed, so by definition our heraldic space is more sparcely populated

than in period.

 

<<< What happened when all direct descendants of the owner of a device  

died? Did it revert to the Crown? Or did it get inherited along  

indirect descendants? >>>

 

Indirect descendants. ISome families die out of course, but the armory

remains. After all, somebody could come up with new evidence to show

that they are a descendant of so-and-so and therefore entitled to an

supposedly extinct piece of armory. It is perfectly possible to wander

along to the College of Arms in London with a bunch of documents and

prove your right to bear some piece of armory.

 

<<< If things get too congested, we might have to go to a system where  

legal, non-infringing devices are so difficult to construct that it  

requires a trained herald to ferret them out. >>>

 

I guess it will happen eventually. I suspect it is not something that

any of us reading this list will need to worry about though.

 

<<< I have heard of individual heralds spending time creating new,  

available devices which their clients could then choose and register,  

but I've never heard of this been done in a systemic way. >>>

 

Yes, this has been tried a number of times. As a general rule people

don't seem to like that approach much.

 

Wakeline

 

 

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 15:45:59 +1000

From: Braddon Giles <braddongiles at gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Lochac] herald questions

To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"

      <lochac at lochac.sca.org>

 

GREAT questions Stefan. I'll do my best.

 

2010/1/5 Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com>:

<<< Which brings up something I've wondered about. It is apparently possible to

pass on a device using a heraldic will, but I don't know how much that is

done. Or even the details about how this is done. >>>

 

In your normal will write a clause saying "I release my name and

device held by the SCA College of Arms", or transmit them to a

recipient. Easy. Your executor should be able to take care of that.

Write to the College of Heralds.

 

<<< It would seem that there would be an accumulation of no longer used devices.

I managed to register a simple, straight-forward device over 15 years ago,

but I wondered then how much longer this could be done. >>>

 

Not easy, but not impossible. It depends on how flexible the submiter is.

 

<<< It would seem that keeping all these unused devices around, often simple

ones because early-on there was less likely a conflict to be worked around,

leads to unperiodly complex devices. >>>

 

Um, yes and no. Unperiodly complex designs come mostly from lazy

heralds and uneducated submitters. I can still register most things

singly and with 3 tinctures - easy. You might have to have a multi

coloured lion, but as I said it is about submitters flexibility more

than anything else.

 

<<< What was the solution for this same thing in period? There wasn't one single

registry so I guess it was possible to have the same device/cost of arms

registered to different people in different countries, so maybe this was

less of a problem. >>>

 

Killing the other guy. Seriously. Or taking him to court - Grosvenor

vs Scrope is the early famous example. At the extreme we could go to

independant heraldic jurisdiction in each Kingdom, but I suspect the

College of Arms will have to be very stressed before that occurs.

 

<<< What happened when all direct descendants of the owner of a device died? Did

it revert to the Crown? Or did it get inherited along indirect descendants? >>>

 

That depended on whether there was land as well as the shield :)

 

<<< Perhaps devices should have to be re-registered every ten years or so, or

they become up for use by someone else. >>>

 

We choose to honour those who came before us, made this game and

entrusted into our hands. One of those ways is to protect their

heraldry. I think we will have to be pretty desperate before we turn

over the armoury of the Great and the Good from long ago, don't you?

 

<<< I have heard of individual heralds spending time creating new, available

devices which their clients could then choose and register, but I've never

heard of this been done in a systemic way. >>>

 

It is a possibility, but I find that submitters want things that they

are committed to, rather than what i say will be good for them.

Choosing from a list that I have already made doesn't come out

positively.

 

Giles Leabrook.

 

 

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 16:48:27 +1100

From: Paul Sleigh <bat at flurf.net>

Subject: Re: [Lochac] herald questions

To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"

      <lochac at lochac.sca.org>

 

2010/1/5 Wakeline <chollitt at ieee.org>:

< I have heard of individual heralds spending time creating new, ?available

devices which their clients could then choose and register, ?but I've never

heard of this been done in a systemic way. >

 

<< Yes, this has been tried a number of times. As a general rule people don't

seem to like that approach much. >>

 

Heh.  I did exactly that, by producing a list of what I called Simple

Devices.  These were ones that fit the pattern <$TINCTURE, a $ORDINARY

$TINCTURE>, as in <Sable, a chevron Or>, <Argent, a pile gules>,

<Ermine, a bend sinister purpure> and so on. Some other heralds

wandered through the list and found ones that were as yet

unregistered, and my wife chose one as her own, which is why she is

now the cause of envy among other heraldic customers.

 

But yes, it doesn't happen often.  One day I'll write a program that

does automated conflict-checking, and then it'll be possible to

programmatically generate every non-conflicting device matching an

arbitrarily specific pattern.  But not this week.

 

: Bat :

 

 

Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 22:08:22 -0800

From: "Frederick J. Hollander" <flieg at berkeley.edu>

Subject: Re: [Lochac] herald questions

To: The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list <lochac at lochac.sca.org>

 

Flieg here --

 

  Good questions, but not to worry.  The number of possible devices

which might reasonably be considered simple probably numbers in the

millions, possibly in the tens of millions. Remembering that simple

devices are easier to get passed than complex ones, let me suggest that

probably 80% of these are in conflict with some other member of the set.

That still gives us hundreds of thousands of simple devices. Most of

them haven't been registered (duh).

 

  The question of what to do about the filling of "heraldic space" has

been brought up time and time again. The answer is that we are still

registering simple devices. In fact we are registering more of them now

than ever before, as some people become more educated about heraldry.

The big furor over ceasing to protect most mundane armory was supposed

to free up great rafts of heraldic space.  Most of it has yet to be

occupied.

 

  My experience has been that something like half of the people who are

looking to register something don't care what a simple heraldic device

is: they want what they want. The other half gasp when shown something

clean, medieval and clear of conflict, and say, "I can have *that*?" in

awe and wonder.  Those are the clients I like.

 

  As for arbitrarily releasing armory.  Well, even if someone has left,

the people he/she interacted with have not.  And if they were a peer, or

a crowned head, it becomes even more problematic to release historical arms.

 

  Our ancestors, as you note, had multiple heraldic jurisdictions, lax

regulation (if any) and a simple way to settle any arguments (*whack!*).

We have global movement, a much more firmly engrained sense of "mine",

and other modern sensibilities.

 

  -- Quick thoughts off the top of my head. This really is an old topic

(tho not in the Shambles)

 

  -- With respect

 

   Flieg  -- old used herald.

 

 

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 06:50:36 +0000

From: Jenny Andersen <jla_mni at hotmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Lochac] stability of colours

To: <lochac at lochac.sca.org>

 

<<< I'm still not convinced on laser colour printing being majorly affected in storage. I just looked through a filing cabinet behind me and found some colour printing from 5 years ago. The reds look quite red and the yellows looked quite yellow... >>>

 

The other one is of course the metallic pens - they apparently go black and sticky - apart from the one i used to colour my first submission which 12 years later (in an un-airconditioned house living in a stifling plastic sleeve) are still golden and unsticky.

 

maeve

 

 

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 09:16:05 +1000

From: Braddon Giles <braddongiles at gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Lochac] heraldic colors

To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"

      <lochac at lochac.sca.org>

 

2010/1/5 Chris de Lisle <cmdelisle at gmail.com>:

<<< As regards post-period tinctures.

Murrey was mentioned above, it being a reddish purple?

My heraldry book claims orange can be called "tenn?"? It claims both

tinctures are "ancient," which is so vague as to lead me to suspect it

of not being a very good heraldry book.

(Wikipedia, always a reliable source, supplies further odd non-period

tinctures such as: carnation (skin-colour), bleu celeste (sky-blue),

cendr?e (grey), ash, brun?tre (brown)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tincture_(heraldry)#Later_tinctures)

YIS

Ioannes >>>

 

All the tinctures Ioannes mentions were indeed used in heraldry,

particularly French, but after our period. Heraldry is an evolving art

and science, that changes glacially, but it does change. Carnation as

a word only appears in the C17th (with the same root of "flesh" as

carnivore). Brown had been used in heraldry of course for wood, wood

objects and brown creatures (like bears) when termed "proper", but was

only used as an independent heraldic tincure well after our period.

Think of the Hawthorn AFL colours - Or and brunatre.

 

All the later colours can be found in period heraldry, but in tiny

details. An orange tree proper has orange oranges, but there are no

chevrons tenne. The later tinctures used indepently on major charges

are a clear sign of when the device was made - out of our period.

 

They are cool, though. I love tenne.

 

Giles

 

 

Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 13:21:45 +1100

From: Talith Jennison <talithj at unimelb.edu.au>

Subject: Re: [Lochac] Order of Chivalry - privileges - a question

To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"

      <lochac at lochac.sca.org>

 

<<< that a new knight is asked "By what name do you wish to be Knighted "

and this name becomes their registered name regardless of the CoL's

objections. >>>

 

<< Dude.  That is totally an urban legend. >>

 

Seconding this.  It's nonsense.  Previously a new peer was entitled to a

free change of name, but all the usual registration requirements still

applied.  Last time I can think of anyone taking up the offer was a Pel

back in 1996.  

 

Tamsyn

 

 

Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 12:18:17 +1000

From: Braddon Giles <braddongiles at gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Lochac] Order of Chivalry - privileges - a question

To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"

      <lochac at lochac.sca.org>

 

2010/1/19  <masterwolf at optusnet.com.au>:

<<< Can anyone explain to my why the Chiv ceremony is the only peerage to have a

"free pass" around the college of heralds re the name of the new knight.

 

It is my understanding (and correct me if i am wrong) that a new knight is

asked "By what name do you wish to be Knighted " and this name becomes their

registered name regardless of the CoL's objections. ?A herald once also told

me this applies to thier blazon as well, but i am not sure >>>

 

As Tamara says, you've been conned or conned yourself.

 

You are incorrect that new Knights and Counts and Earls and Dukes get

a free, non documentation required name or device registration at

their elevation. Our rules apply to all, even those that refuse to

acknowledge them :)

 

The part of the ceremony including "By which name do you wish to be

Knighted... " is a reference to ancient ceremonies. A person might

enter a religious fighting order and take a new name to reflect their

new station in life. Those were often a saint's name a person

especially venerated. It equates with the ceremony a monk would

undertake in the same place.

 

However, that lovely theatre does not reach out of the page to turn

off other aspects of our normal processes, thank you :) One more urban

legend *smashed*! Woohoo!

 

Giles.

 

 

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 23:50:26 +1100

From: Raymond Wickham <insidious565 at hotmail.com>

Subject: [Lochac] Treatises on Heraldry, in Latin and English England;

      15th century

To: lochac <lochac at sca.org.au>

 

http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/medieval/mss/lat/misc/e/086.htm  

 

 

From: Tim McDaniel <tmcd at panix.com>

Date: April 16, 2010 1:48:02 PM CDT

To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] honor and animals

 

Warning!  You're about to get heraldry goo all over you.

 

On Fri, 16 Apr 2010, Hugh & Belinda Niewoehner

<burgborrendohl at valornet.com> wrote:

<<< As to symbols of honor in general I do not know how accurate this

site is about Heraldry (Perhaps a herald will comment) but they say

'honor' in heraldry was represented by >>>

 

The needle on my bogometer wrapped around the post just reading that

far.

 

If any page assigns "meanings" to heraldic tinctures or charges in

general, you know that it's bogus, and furthermore you should take

anything they say about heraldry with a small boulder of salt.

 

In certain *specific* areas, there were meanings. The ones that come

to mind:

 

- There was "canting", where something on the coat of arms makes a pun

on the last name of the bearer.  E.g., the Talbot arms have talbots

(a breed of hound), the Lucy arms have lucy fish, et cetera.

 

- There were a *few* specific charges that did have meanings in

restricted geographical areas: the Red Hand of Ulster in Britain is

for baronets (post-period); gold fleurs-de-lys on blue in France

usually meant it was a member of the royal family or they received

an augmentation to their arms for service to the Crown; et cetera.

 

- People who were closely related could have differenced arms

(cadency).  The vassal of a lord might use motifs from his lord's

arms on his own.

 

- There were ways of combining coats of arms to show marriage,

inheritance, claims, or offices.

 

But those were in specific areas and cases.  There's no evidence that

people chose gold to mean nobility, black to mean steadfastness, or

whatever.  Further, there are heraldic treatises and other works that

discussed the symbology of color, and they didn't agree.  (I once

found something like 11 different "meanings" for gold in 5 works.)

 

And anyway, most armigers didn't choose arms, they inherited them.

All that "Or, three escutcheons gules" meant was that you were the son

of the guy who bore "Or, three escutcheons gules".

 

Worse, the page quoted mentioned a good meaning for tenne, "Worthy

ambition".  Heraldic treatise authors did mostly agree that tenne and

sanguine were supposed to be used for "abatements of honor", marks of

*dishonor* added to the shield.  There's no evidence that anyone ever

did, but that's what the treatise authors wrote.

 

"Meanings" of arms is rather like "meanings" of names.  Heather Rose

Jones was not born all green, leafy, thorny, or bloomy.  Someone named

Margaret is not likely to be a more or less irregular sphere of

calcium carbonate produced by a mollusc.  I was named Timothy, but not

because there was evidence that I honored God.  The difference between

a name and a simple adjective is that a name has become detached from

its literal meaning.

 

Danielis de Lincolino

 

 

From: Jennifer Smith <jds at randomgang.com>

Date: April 16, 2010 3:16:47 PM CDT

To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] honor and animals

 

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 1:48 PM, Tim McDaniel <tmcd at panix.com> wrote:

<<< Warning!  You're about to get heraldry goo all over you.

 

On Fri, 16 Apr 2010, Hugh & Belinda Niewoehner

<burgborrendohl at valornet.com> wrote:

< As to symbols of honor in general I do not know how accurate this

site is about Heraldry (Perhaps a herald will comment) but they say

'honor' in heraldry was represented by >

 

The needle on my bogometer wrapped around the post just reading that

far.

 

If any page assigns "meanings" to heraldic tinctures or charges in

general, you know that it's bogus, and furthermore you should take

anything they say about heraldry with a small boulder of salt. >>>

 

What Daniel wrote further is very well said.

 

An anecdote I am particularly fond of is found in _The Heraldic

Imagination_ by Rodney Dennys. In a chapter discussing so-called

heraldic symbolism, he writes:

 

"The early heralds would have searched the bestiaries for information

on the beasts and birds of the world. Bado Aureo was clearly

influenced by them in describing, in his _Tractatus de Armis_, the

various beasts, birds and fishes which are borne in arms. The

'sweetness of music with melodius notes', which the Swan was said to

pour forth, is echoed by Bado Aureo who tells us that singers, when

dubbed knights or otherwise raised to eminence, ought to bear a Swan

in their arms. He goes on to say that he had, nevertheless, seen

unmusical men bearing Swans in their arms, and he therefore asked a

'King of the Heraulds why he assigned to such men to bere swannes in

armys, which were no syngers'. The king of arms replied that one

reason could be that 'they wre passing faire men', and another that

'they had longe nekkes'. It is interesting that by 1394 it was

apparently accepted in English Court circles that a king of arms was

the appropriate authority for designing and assigning arms." [quotes

from Bodlein Library MS. LAud. Misc 733, f. 9: a late 15th century

English translation of John de Badu Aureo's _Tractatus de Armis_,

itself written in 1394 or 1395.]

 

Further discussion of his treatise in the book seems to show that he

was a bit of a wackjob, but I thought his Swan anecdote quite amusing

and very telling.

 

-Emma

 

 

From: Jennifer Smith <jds at randomgang.com>

Date: April 16, 2010 4:09:03 PM CDT

To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] honor and animals

 

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Hugh & Belinda Niewoehner

<burgborrendohl at valornet.com> wrote:

<<< Thank you both Daniel and Emma.  You have answered some of my questions about heraldry of which I am sadly very ignorant.  Before 1394 and the

accepted authority of the "king of arms" how were arms assigned/chosen?

What are the earliest records? >>>

 

That's somewhat difficult to answer exactly. Heraldy rather evolved

from the battlefield, and didn't become a more precise science until

sometime in the thirteenth century, when they started becoming

hereditary. That's really when the lawyers and heralds (who themselves

evolved from essentially army staff officers) got involved in actually

designing, assigning, and verifying inheritance.

 

<<< Also since the bestiaries were consulted by the early heralds I assume that

they did try to assign 'meanings' to charges in the beginning?  Or am I

misunderstanding again? >>>

 

They did, but mostly to the tinctures (planets, jewels, even days of

the week!)  But as Daniel pointed out, they didn't agree at all on

many points. For example, _De Insigniis et Armis_ of Bartolo di Sasso

Ferrato was written in Perugia (Italy) around 1354. It lists the

tinctures from most noble to least noble as gold, red, blue, white,

black. But then John de Bado Aureo writes in his _Tractatus de Armis_

in 1395 in England, that the noblest color is white, then black, then

blue, gold, red, green. Later texts go into much greater detail in

explaining allegories and whatnot, but again, they don't agree.

 

It also seems quite likely that the recipients of arms probably didn't

understand any allusions being made, unless they were particularly

well-read.

 

I suppose, therefore, that the best answer is yes -- if you want to

have a certain meaning to a charge or tincture on your arms, if you

look hard enough you can probably find that meaning in one of the many

period heraldic treatises, somewhere. :)

 

-Emma

 

 

From: Tim McDaniel <tmcd at panix.com>

Date: April 16, 2010 5:15:49 PM CDT

To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: [Ansteorra] Mommy, where do arms come from?

 

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Hugh & Belinda Niewoehner

<burgborrendohl at valornet.com> wrote:

<<< Before 1394 and the accepted authority of the "king of arms" how

were arms assigned/chosen? >>>

 

There were times and areas in which there were strong heraldic

authorities.  For example, in 16th and 17th century England, heralds

would perform heraldic "visitations", checking the arms in use in

particular areas.  The bearers of arms would have to show proof that

they'd been granted the arms, or that they'd been using the arms for a

long time: if so, the arms were recorded and confirmed; if not, the

arms were defaced and the bearers enjoined from using them.

 

There were far more times and areas without strong heraldic

authorities.  People bore assumed arms: if they felt they should be

armigerous, they simply started bearing arms (and how they came up

with designs I wot not).

 

Danyll de Lyncoln

 

 

From: Elizabeth Bair <countessdulcia at gmail.com>

Date: June 14, 2010 2:32:44 PM CDT

To: trimaris-temp at yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [tri-temp] Royal colors?

 

Tamara - to answer your questions....



 

>
> 1) OK, you have your passed arms, then you get a GOA: do you have to re-submit your arms to get the one supporter?



 

No. The SCA does not register supporters, crests, mantling or any of 
the parts of the Achievement, just the arms. So unless you actually 
change some aspect of your arms, you don't have to re-register it.

 



Of course, if you would ever earn an Augmentation of Arms, which gives 
you the right to add an element of someone else's arms onto your own,
 you would need to re-submit your arms to get the additional element 
approved and registered.

 

Usually in the SCA an Augmentation involves 
adding an element from the Kingdom's Arms to your arms - in Trimaris 
it's a triskele. Sometimes it's an element from the king or queen's 
personal arms though. Anyway, since you are adding something to your 
basic arms, it counts as a change and you re-register then.



 

>
> 2) What would you do with this full achievement when you get it? Put it on a banner? garb? etc?

 



The most common use is on banners or other objects (mugs, plates, 
wooden chests, chairs, wall hangings, whatever). You don't usually 
see Achievements on a lot of clothing, aside from modern t-shirts. =)
You could use it on the back of a cloak or mantle though, or on a 
tabard, or anyplace you would put your arms. Generally though, it's
 most appropriate for places where you would use your arms within the 
shield shape, rather than for times when you would treat the
 item/garment as the whole shield... heraldic cotehardies and sideless 
surcoats for instance, use the whole garment or side of the garment as 
if it's all the "shield".

 

This allows the arms to be fairly 
recognizable even when the fabric is draped (like a skirt falling in
 folds). An Achievement really needs a flat space or the arms get 
lost.



 

Dulcia

 

 

Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 14:02:50 +1000

From: Alexander a la Fontayne <alexanderalafontayne at gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Lochac] Heraldic curiosity

To: The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list <lochac at lochac.sca.org>

 

On 20/04/2011 13:20, Cian Gillebhrath wrote:

<<< Apparently in the real world, Kate Middleton's father has just registered

his own arms:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/04/20/3196664.htm

 

Under SCA rules, will that mean that any SCA arms that clash with the

father of the potential future Queen of England, New Zealand, Australia

etc. will no longer be valid?

 

Cian >>>

 

New registrations would be returned if it was determined that the

Middleton arms were worthy of protection (this is very likely). Old

stuff already registered would be covered by the grandfather clause.

--

Alexander a la Fontayne,

Seneschal of the College of St Aldhelm

Cordon Rouge Herald

 

 

Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 14:21:38 +1000

From: Mark Calderwood <giles at sca.org.au>

Subject: Re: [Lochac] Heraldic curiosity

To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"

      <lochac at lochac.sca.org>

 

On 20/04/2011, at 1:20 PM, Cian Gillebhrath wrote:

<<< Apparently in the real world, Kate Middleton's father has just  

registered his own arms:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/04/20/3196664.htm

 

Under SCA rules, will that mean that any SCA arms that clash with the

father of the potential future Queen of England, New Zealand,  

Australia etc. will no longer be valid? >>>

 

I don't know if they would be 'significant' enough: I wouldn't guess so.

 

In any event, real world heraldry being different to SCA heraldry,  

Kate won't actually use those Arms except in a decorative sense:  

she's not a heraldic heiress as her father is still alive, and after  

her marriage she will use the arms of Prince William.

 

(She also won't have a title per se, either, the correct style being  

HRH Princess William of Wales. If William is granted a dukedom,  

however, she would be commonly known as Catherine, Duchess of wherever.)

 

Giles

 

 

Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 14:29:05 +1000

From: "Steve Maynard" <smay1968 at bigpond.net.au>

Subject: Re: [Lochac] Heraldic curiosity

To: "'The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list'"

      <lochac at lochac.sca.org>

 

<<< I don't know if they would be 'significant' enough: I wouldn't guess

so. >>>

 

Ummmm wouldn't bet on that, as this has appeared in the world media and now

publically associated with her there is a fair chance it will be.

 

<<< In any event, real world heraldry being different to SCA heraldry,

Kate won't actually use those Arms except in a decorative sense:

she's not a heraldic heiress as her father is still alive, and after

her marriage she will use the arms of Prince William. >>>

 

No, when they announced the Middleton Arms they also announced that after

the marriage her father's arms will be impaled with that of William's

 

William

 

 

Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 14:37:37 +1000

From: Mark Calderwood <giles at sca.org.au>

Subject: Re: [Lochac] Heraldic curiosity

To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"

      <lochac at lochac.sca.org>

 

On 20/04/2011, at 2:29 PM, Steve Maynard wrote:

<<< No, when they announced the Middleton Arms they also announced that  

after the marriage her father's arms will be impaled with that of William's >>>

 

If a warrant is issued by the Sovereign. Even so, it's a very unusual  

departure from Royal heraldic protocol. But then, they are quite nice  

Arms and probably should be shown off.

 

Giles

 

 

To: MedievalTrivia at yahoogroups.com

Subject: BALDWIN OF EREBOR [oldie but goodie]

Posted by: "Shane B" shaneb at ij.net

Date: Wed May 4, 2011 3:46 pm (PDT)

 

The Herald's Complaint

 

by Baldwin of Erebor

 

When I was just a pursuivant at Herald High

I studied with a conscience as the days went by;

I listened to the lectures and took note of evry phrase

And I gave my life to learning the correct heraldic ways.

 

But with ev'ning come and classes closed and midnight candles burnt,

I would lie in bed and hearken back to all that I had learnt, And as

I lay near slumber's door beneath the candle's gleam

An eerie vision came to me appearing in a dream - It was

 

a dove displayed upon a billet chequy or and gules

Between a pair of cockatrices clad in motley like a fool's. Their

feathers were dimidiated with a tree eradicated

Limbed and fructed counter compony.

 

Beside the field of honor at a tournament

I was resting from my labors in the herald's tent

When my reverie was broken by a newly-belted knight

Who had come for some assurance that his coat of arms was right.

 

I sat him down and talked to him about simplicity

And shared with him the good advice that had been taught to me. "My

lord," he said, "My thanks to thee, you really have been kind. Now

let me tell you of the coat of arms I have in mind. I want

 

a dove displayed upon a billet chequy or and gules

Between a pair of cockatrices clad in motley like a fool's. Their

feathers are dimidiated with a tree eradicated

Limbed and fructed counter compony."

 

"Your blazon is impossible," was my response.

"It's so complex, the college would reject it at the nonce.

It breaks the rules of heraldry; it can't be done, you see.

Besides, the arms you've blazoned have been registered to me. I have a

 

a dove displayed upon a billet chequy or and gules

Between a pair of cockatrices clad in motley like a fool's. Their

feathers are dimidiated with a tree eradicated

Limbed and fructed counter compony -

 

And those are the arms that belong to me!"

 

Lyrics and music copyright 1978, 1979 by Derek Foster.

Reproduced and posted by Mark A. Foster, with the author's permission.

 

 

Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 07:23:47 -0500

From: Amie Sparrow <troenwolf at hotmail.com>

To: Merry Rose <atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>

Subject: [MR] Question about fighters & unpassed heraldry

 

I have a question about unpassed heraldry. My husband is a new heavy fighter (Fighter 1) and I have another friend who is also a new heavy fighter (Fighter 2). I am working with the assumption that fighters need heraldry.

 

What do we do in a situation where the heraldry has not been submitted yet? The two situations are slightly different.

 

Fighter 1 - Has passed heraldry, but wants new scarier heraldry. Should he use his current heraldry until the new heraldry gets approved? Or can he start using the new scarier heraldry because he likes it better?

 

Fighter 2 - Does not have heraldry at all. What should she do? Can she create a tabbard with heraldry that is being submitted while the submission works its way through the heraldic review process?

 

Fighter 3 - For good measure, I'm going to assume that there is at least one new person reading the Merry Rose and wants to fight, but doesn't have the foggiest idea of what heraldry he or she wants. What should that person do if that person wants to fight at an event?

 

You can assume that none of these fighters is going to be in a crown tournament before heraldry is passed, so we can remove that possiblity from the discussion.

 

I have skimmed the SCA Marshall's Handbook and the Atlantian Book of Policy. I did not find anything that implied a fighter had to have heraldry at all (much to my surprise).

 

What should these fighters do?

 

Amie

 

 

Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 08:57:28 -0400

From: "Rachel/Rozsa" <raerosado at gmail.com>

To: Amie Sparrow <troenwolf at hotmail.com>

Cc: Merry Rose <atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>

Subject: Re: [MR] Question about fighters & unpassed heraldry

 

As someone who has made a great many heraldic surcoats for fighters (and

various other heraldic items) I would highly recommend that nothing should

be made in heraldry that has not passed or is going to be changed.  A lot of

work is put into anything heraldic - and some of those items may be around

for a great many years and it would be a disappointment for all that work to

go into something that may not be usable/correct 6 mos from now.

 

I have never seen a law or requirement that a fighter has to wear heraldry

on the field in order to fight - so they are good there.

If they want something spiffy - consider tabards that are just in their

favorite heraldic colors.  Parti-colored or quartered are perfectly

acceptable - or decorated in just neat medieval decorative designs.  There

are tons of fighters on the field that don't wear heraldry but have used

fancy fabrics or put neat designs on their tabards.

 

Have fun with it - take your time on your heraldry as it is something that

is very personal and will represent you for a great many years.  And THANK

YOU for taking the time to help get your fighters looking purty!!!  :)

 

If you have any questions for me personally, please feel free to contact

me.

 

Rozsa (who is not a herald but loves decorating with heraldry)

*************************************

*Baron? Bessenyei Rozsa

Emergency Kingdom Seneschal*

*Eastern NC Regional Seneschal *

 

 

Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 06:03:07 -0700 (PDT)

From: J. C. Smith isp?n <jsmithcsa at yahoo.com>

To: Atlantia Mailing List <Atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>

Subject: Re: [MR] Question about fighters & unpassed heraldry

 

There are no laws about this kind of thing, but here is my advice as a long-time

herald and fighter (the latter, not recently).?This is just my opinion -- others

may, and probably will, disagree.

 

1. It's up to the fighter -- he can use his currently registered heraldry or

none at all.? I tend to discourage folks from using unregistered heraldry*.

 

2 & 3. Best to use a blank tabard/surcoat/shield until something is registered.

 

*I got some good advice when I was a newbie that I have often repeated: don't

sew or paint anything that may change when it's registered. Do you really want

to rip out and redo that surcoat because Laurel rules that the scary monster

needs to be portrayed a certain way, or can't be used at all? Do you really

want to repaint that shield for the same reason?? Better to be patient.

 

Barcsi Janos

Black Raven Herald

 

 

Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 09:15:52 -0400

From: Guenievre de Monmarche <guenievre at erminespot.com>

To: J. C. Smith isp?n <jsmithcsa at yahoo.com>

Cc: Atlantia Mailing List <Atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>

Subject: Re: [MR] Question about fighters & unpassed heraldry

 

One idea for you - if you look through period art, there are a LOT of

images out there of combattants wearing surcotes, esp., but also

occasionally using shields that do not have full heraldry, but merely

the colors of the heraldry, or perhaps a single charge from said

heraldry as an allusion to the full device.

 

This might be an approach your heraldry-less fighters could take - the

*colors* used in your heraldry probably will not change, even if the

details of the heraldry do, and you can always add a rendition of the

full arms later, if desired. Thus you wouldn't be *redoing* all your

work, but at least you would be "heading in that direction."

 

Alternatively, of course, there's no reason a fighter can't wear their

Baronial/Shire populace badge until they have heraldry of their own

(or after! I'm always proud to see WM fighters in their Baronial

tabards at any time.)

 

Baronne Guenievre

 

 

Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 09:23:05 -0400

From: "Beverly Robinson-Curry" <brcurry at bellsouth.net>

To: "'Merry Rose'" <atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>

Subject: Re: [MR] Question about fighters & unpassed heraldry

 

I'm gonna have to disagree with part of this, beloved sister.

<<< This gives you the right to display your arms. Until then... >>>

 

There is _no_ restriction prohibiting the non-armigerous (those who haven't

been awarded arms by the Crown) from registering heraldry.  Or from

displaying that which they register.  The difference is that before they

become armigerous, we call the design a "device" rather than "arms" (and a

badge is a badge is a badge).

 

There are some restrictions on the display, specifically, the 'achievement',

based upon the rank the individual has attained, but that's a

neither-here-nor-there with regard to new fighters. ;-)  They just want a

tabard or shield cover.

 

And more heraldic display is a GOOD THING(tm)!!!  Go heraldry!!!

 

Rhiannon

 

Mistress Rhiannon ui Neill

Pearl Herald (Ceremony)

Azure Decrescent Herald (Personal Title)

House Corvus, Barony of Hawkwood, Kingdom of Atlantia

 

 

Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 13:17:07 -0400

From: Rorik Fredericsson <baron.rorik at gmail.com>

To: Merry Rose <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>

Subject: Re: [MR] Question about fighters & unpassed heraldry

 

I've been a fighter for decades and still have one of my oldest

tabards. It is a true 'turncoat' with my personnel arms on one side

and my Clan's badge on the other. These things can last close on to

forever with even a little care.

 

For new fighters... or even non-fighters who want to be spiffy while

helping... I recommend using your household or locality badge. Helping

your Baron or Baroness while wearing the Baronial populous badge shows

respect and gives both you and the Barony enhanced visibility. The

Kingdom badge should be used if serving the Royalty or at

inter-Kingdom events for the same reasons as using the Baronial badge

at local events. Spiff is always welcome.

 

Blank shields in a single heraldic color are always correct, but boring.

 

Painting a shield with a design probably won't get you in trouble, but

if your design is at all close to someone's registered design you will

be asked questions. The best thing to do is... DON'T. Wait for _your_

design to go through the Heraldic submission system.

--

Rorik Fredericsson

Viking Warlord

 

 

To: Gleann Abhann (mail list <gleannabhann at yahoogroups.com>

Subject: Equestrian livery/heraldry

Posted by: "Judith Wilkinson" judith_of_troll_fen at yahoo.com

Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:59 pm ((PDT))

 

Sharing from a heraldry listserve:

The 15th century Grand Armorial équestre de la Toison d'Or is online at

http://expositions.bnf.fr/livres/armorial/index.htm

Pictures of the equestrian livery are in a lot of common heraldry books. The pages are slow loading but you can print, download, and zoom.

 

Judith Wilkinson

 

<the end>



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