heraldry-msg – 7/29/15
Heraldry in history and the SCA.
NOTE: See also the files: Herald-Embro-art, heraldry-bks-msg, heraldry-tips-msg, mottoes1-msg, arms-humor-msg, flags-art, banners-msg, Field-Herldry-art, Sinister-Hand-art.
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NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).
Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
************************************************************************
"I tried sleep-teaching myself heraldry. Didn't help
me, but now my cats sort their food so the red bits
are on the white floor and the yellow bits stay in
the blue bowl."
From: tmcd at crl.com (Timothy A. McDaniel)
Newsgroups: alt.heraldry.sca
Subject: Re: Please help a newbie Herald!
Date: 20 Jun 1996 11:50:48 -0500
Organization: CRL Network Services (415) 705-6060 [Login: guest]
In article <4q71nh$mb5 at hermes.acs.unt.edu>,
Randy Shipp <rshipp at flash.net> wrote:
>In the SCA, I've noticed some
>conventions that are a little different than some mundane standards.
>For instance, we say "Azure, a castle argent..." instead of "On a
>field azure, a castle argent...".
British custom is to just start with the field tincture(s). I think
French (and presumably others similarly) start with "De gules, ...".
The SCA College of Arms started with an explicitly-stated bias for
recreating English armorial practices of about 1200-1450, so it's
understandable that we use the common English custom. In any event,
we're WRITING in English, so it makes sense there too to use British
custom.
>Seemingly contrary to that is the
>custom of using "Azure, on a bend argent three mullets sable" instead
>of "Azure, a bend argent charged with three mullets sable".
"Charged with" is occasionally used in the SCA in odd cases to clarify
the blazon (e.g., "three plates each charged with a mullet gules").
Another difference I notice is that the SCA uses punctuation in blazon
and the English CoA doesn't. The English view seems to be the
lawyer's view that punctuation leads to confusion, and any legal
blazon of something that's reasonable style shouldn't need
punctuation.
>Say, are the RfS online somewhere?
Using FTP, connect to fine.mess.cs.cmu.edu and cd to /usr/kvs/pub for
lots of interesting stuff -- the Armorial, Laurel LoARs back to 6/90,
Rules for Submission, Administrative Handbook (at least skim these
last two), ...
Using the Web, however, it's ftp://fine.mess.cs.cmu.edu/kvs/pub: omit
"/usr".
Iulstan, Morsulus Herald, has set up a Web page at
http://www.sca.org/heraldry/. It has links to other places, and
points to his monthly infomercial on heraldic sources, a waty to
search the Armorial, a way to look at the Ordinary, et cetera.
I tend to avoid {www,bransle}.ucs.mun.ca. For example, the Rules for
Submission and Admin Handbooks there are drafts I posted two years
ago. The index of KWHS proceedings articles are also two years old.
--
Daniel de Lincoln
Tim McDaniel
Reply-To: tmcd at crl.com
(Work is mcdaniel at cpm.com.)
Never use mcdaniel at mcdaniel.dallas.tx.us.
From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Newsgroups: alt.heraldry.sca
Subject: Re: Please help a newbie Herald!
Date: 20 Jun 1996 13:11:25 -0400
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
> I don't think that there were any hard and fast rules about blazoning, so
> long as you conveyed your meaning.
There are standard grammars of blazon in English, French, Italian, and
Spanish; and probably in other languages. The Society uses a sub-set of
English blazonry, generally chosen for succinctness.
> I would imagine that in different areas customs developed.
Historically, that is definitely true.
> In the SCA, I've noticed some conventions that are a little different
> than some mundane standards. For instance, we say "Azure, a castle
> argent..." instead of "On a field azure, a castle argent...".
Standard English blazonry has not used "On a field azure,..." any time in
the last two centuries. A good discussion of modern English blazonry can
be found in "Shield and Crest" by Julian Franklyn. A slightly less useful
discussion is in A. C. Fox-Davies, "A Complete Guide to Heraldry".
Once you understand the structure of English blazonry, you can find good
discussions of Society blazonry in several Society publications, including
Compleat Anachronist #22 "Heraldry".
If you are interested in the early history of blazon, I recommend Gerard
Brault, "Early Blazon". It discusses blazon in the 12th and 13th
centuries.
> Say, are the RfS online somewhere?
Yes. You can find them at Elsbeth Roth's ftp site,
ftp://fine.mess.cs.cmu.edu/usr/kvs/pub/
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord mittle at panix.com
From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Newsgroups: alt.heraldry.sca
Subject: Re: SCA Heraldry, general
Date: 21 Aug 1996 14:25:45 -0400
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
> There's also the Academy of St. Gabriel (Arval Goodheart, please
> come to the argent courtesy herald; you have a message.).
Hmphm...snort? Oh, right. Justa sec...
The Academy of S. Gabriel is an unofficial heraldic constulation and
education group. We take questions about period names and armory,
primarily from people trying to choose their own names and arms or from
local heralds who need help, and we try to provide expert advice. We focus
on names and arms which fit the time and culture which interests our
client, though we also give advice on registering names and arms with the
SCA College of Arms.
For more information, please read our web page
http://www.us.itd.umich.edu/~ximenez/st.gabriel/
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord mittle at panix.com
From: Joshua Mittleman <mittle at watson.ibm.com>
Newsgroups: alt.heraldry.sca
Subject: Re: Is counterchanged still legal?
Date: 7 Oct 1996 16:46:59 -0400
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Greetings from Arval! Fein wrote:
> I had settled on this because I was told that the charge I would prefer to
> use would probably hold up the whole process at the laural level because
> its on the "overused" list... In this case a unicorns, both rampant
> (combatant) and passant.
You were told widely-believed nonsense. There are indeed lots of unicorns
registered, but it is _has_ been possible to register a unicorn. It just
takes a little work before sending in the submission.
> Last weekend at War of the Diamonds, I was told by a friend of mine, [whos
> arms just passed and are delishiously scandlous, but thats another story]
> that somebody fairly high in meridies had instituting a ban on
> "counterchanged" blazons.
This is almost certainly a mis-understanding at some level. In the remote
chance that some senior Meridien herald _is_ abusing his authority in this
manner, you could simply appeal the ruling to Laurel.
> Now this is where I start eating crow. Since I never technically
> registered my device past the local level, then I may or may not be
> protected in the typical 'grandfather' clause.
There is no such thing as registration at the local level. The only
registration is at the Society-wide level, i.e. with the Laurel King of
Arms. If you haven't registered your arms with Laurel, then they are not
registered, period.
Note that you don't _have_ to register your arms. You can use anything you
want, registered or not, and no herald has the authority to tell you
otherwise. Of course, courtesy argues that you should avoid using arms
which will cause confusion of identity, and registration is one way to try
to accomplish that goal. But not the only way.
I'm not sure what "grandfather clause" you have in mind. There are only
two correct usages of that phrase in Society heraldry.
(a) Once you register something with Laurel, it remains registered
forever, unless you ask for it to be removed from the armorial.
This rule is part of Corpora, and is not formally called a
"grandfather clause", but is sometimes referred to that way.
(b) Once you register something with Laurel, you and your close relatives
will generally be allowed to re-use elements of that name or armory
in future submissions, even if the rules have changed in ways that
would otherwise prevent it. This rule is part of the College of
Arms' Rules for Submissions, and it is called the "grandfather
clause".
Since you have nothing registered yet, there is no grandfather clause which
applies to you.
> However, since because of the way I'm looking at my arms now, there are
> no charges resting on the line of division, therefore 'technically' it is
> not counterchanged. and therefore I would just have define the tincutures
> a bit differently.
You mis-understand the word "counterchanged". A single charge or a set of
charges are "counterchanged" if they lie on a divided field, and they
inherit their color from the opposite half of the divided field. They do
not have to cross the line of division to be "counterchanged". For
example: "Per pale gules and Or, two lions rampant counterchanged." There
is a red lion on the gold half of the field and a gold lion on the red half
of the field.
In general, one does not use the term "counterchanged" to blazon the
tinctures of charges placed on other charges. Consider "Gules, a lion
rampant and on a chief Or three crescents gules" (red field with a gold
lion, and a gold chief with three red crescents). We would not blazon this
"Gules, a lion and a chief Or, three crescents counterchanged".
> First, assuming that I have described a passable device, then have I
> blazoned it correctly, or would it be better to do the "of the first" and
> "of the second" routine?
In Society heraldry, we don't use "of the first" etc. We name the
tinctures.
> Second, if two charges 'rampant' are facing each other and are then called
> 'combatant' what do you call it when you place together two passant charges
> as such?
Two beasts passant and facing each other are blazoned "passant respectant".
If they are facing away from each other, they are blazoned "passant
addorsed".
> And finally, should I just give up on trying to get a unicorn device passed
> and revert to the orginal plan?
If you want a unicorn, you'll get a unicorn. But I think you should
consider simpler designs. Both of the designs you blazoned as really too
complex for medieval armory.
> "Per chevron sable and argent two unicorns passant above a fools cap, two
> unicorns combatant on a cheif counterchanged all." ,,, Just for
> referance, the fools cap is in the "chevron" area [can't remember my
> region-of-division-and-placement names right now] with the unicorns
> passant above and then a chief with the two unicorns combatant above
> that.
I think I know what you mean here: Per chevron sable and argent, two
unicorns passant respectant and a fool's cap counterchanged; and on a chief
argent, two unicorms combatant sable." That is to say:
____________________________
| |
| unicorn unicorn |
| rampant rampant |
| sable sable <---- argent
| |
|__________________________|
| |
| |
sable --> unicorn> <unicorn |
| passant passant |
| argent / \ argent |
| / \ |
| / \ |
| / \ |
| / fool's \ |
\/ cap \/
\ sable /
\ /
\ /
\ <---- argent
\______________/
Is this correct? If so, then let me offer a couple comments.
Including the same beast is two different postures (passant and rampant) is
_very_ atypical of medieval heraldry. I strongly suggest that you avoid
it.
Placing a tall, thin charge on a chief (like your unicorns rampant) is
generally not a good idea. Because the long axis of the chief does not
match the long axis of the charge, you will be forced either to draw the
unicorns very small or the chief much too deep.
Finally, I would note that it is more common in period armory for a pair of
beasts to be facing the _same_ way rather than facing toward or away from
each other.
In fact, if you drop the charged chief altogether, and just go with the
charged "per chevron" field, you would have a very nice set of arms. I am
guessing that the unicorn is more important to you than the fool's cap,
yes? Then you may want to consider some other designs:
Per chevron sable and argent, three unicorns rampant counterchanged.
Per chevron sable and argent, a unicorn passant and in chief two fool's
caps counterchanged.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord mittle at panix.com
From: ximenez at stimpy.us.itd.umich.edu (Alan Terlep)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Need Heraldry Help?
Date: 8 Jan 1997 16:07:24 GMT
Greetings to the Rialto from Alan Fairfax!
Everyone in the SCA has gone through the effort of coming up with a
name, and many people have attempted to design arms as well. All too
often, people come up with a name, and eventually get around to
submitting it--only to find that their name and/or arms won't pass.
Others run into problems from the other end--they're interested in a
period name and arms, but can't find a herald in the area who knows
anything about 13th century Lithuanian naming practices or what a Spanish
warrior would put on his shield.
The Academy of S. Gabriel is attempting to solve both those problems. We
are a group of heralds organized to help people in the SCA develop period
names and armory. We can offer free consultations with some of the best
heralds in the SCA, and also have a growing collection of resources for
anyone interested in names and armory. We discuss every request before we
send out an answer, so you won't get conflicting information from different
people.
The Academy Web Page can be found at
http://www.us.itd.umich.edu/~ximenez/s.gabriel/
Our email address
s.gabriel at umich.edu
People without net access are, of course, welcome to talk to us;
please send an SASE and information on what you're looking for to
Alan Terlep
1617 Washtenaw
Ann Arbor, MI 48104
The Academy has totally open membership, and we are looking for more
people. Even if you don't have a great deal of heraldic experience,
you're more than welcome to join and learn.
Please spread the word--if you have a friend who needs heraldic
advice, tell them about us, or give this to your local herald.
If you have a relevant Web site, put us in it--we are trying to
reach as many people as possible.
In service,
Alan Fairfax
Herald-at-Large, Middle Kingdom
ximenez at umich.edu
From: Gretchen M Beck <grm+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Need Heraldry Help?
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:42:05 -0500
Organization: Computer Operations, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Excerpts from netnews.rec.org.sca: 9-Jan-97 Re: Need Heraldry Help? by
Rowan126 at aol.com
> Well, I'm a bit confused in general and I'm new. What's this "approval"
> process? You mean you can pick a name for yourself and a group of people
> could tell you that you cannot use it? Granted, names like "Xena Warrior
> Princess" or "William Wallace" are innapropriate... but like I said, I'm a
> bit baffled by this. On what criteria are names judged? Augh, where do I
> even start?
Not quite. You can --USE-- any name you want, including William
Wallace, and Xena Warrior Princess (course, a lot of folks will laugh at
you/give you a hard time if you do, but you can still use them)
Here's where the approval process comes in. The SCA has a sub-group
known as the College of Arms: heralds who research and register names
and armory at the request of SCA members. What the registration process
does is assure you that your name and armory meet some minimal set of
standards--i.e. they bear a passing resemblance to medieval names and
arms.
The Academy of Saint Gabriel is a group of heralds, but not officially
affliated with the SCA College of Arms. Saint Gabriel's will research
names and armory and let you know if they meet stricter standards of
authenticity -- they don't answer the question "Will the SCA register
this name/arms", but rather "Would a person at a specific place and time
have used these names and arms."
------
Now, on choosing a name--it's always a good idea to do some research
before choosing a name. I usually recommend that you choose a culture
first, then see what you can find about naming practices in that culture
in the middle ages. This includes not only "what names were used", but
"how were the different parts of a name put together", and "how did
these things change over time." Somewhere in the process, you'll want
to pick a time. There's lots of good books and reference works
available. If you don't want to do all that, many people do the "what
names were used" part, pick a first name, and let it go at that. No
registration involved. You might want to talk to the herald of your
local group, or check out the Academy of Saint Gabriel home page--it's
got both articles on name construction in various cultures, and a
bibliography name and heraldry references.
Hope this helps!
toodles, margaret
From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Newsgroups: alt.heraldry.sca
Subject: Re: Spiderweb?
Date: 16 Jan 1997 14:33:40 -0500
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Greetings from Arval! Julien de Montfort asked:
> I was wondering if anyone knows if the spiderweb was used very much in
> period arms?
It certainly was not common. I'm not sure it was used at all. Talan, do
you know?
> The device I'm thinking about (in non-blazon form, forgive me) is a black
> field with a silver spiderweb, a gold chief with three red quill pens. An
> obvious 'pun' is there, as I'm my Canton's web writer (is a device that
> describes a person's job considered canting arms?), but since I do that for
> a real-world living too, I thought it appropriate. ;-)
It is quite common in period armory for artisans to use the tools of their
trades as charges in their arms, but that is not "canting". Canting is
specifically using a charge because its name sounds similar to your
surname or the place where you live. You might cant on your name by having
a tower on a hill as the primary charge.
Personally, I would like to discourage you from representing your modern
profession in your arms. You would be introducing a purely modern
reference into something that ought to be purely part of your medieval
persona.
Quills are found in period armory, but squeezing three of them onto a chief
makes them awfully difficult to identify. If you do decide to use them,
I'd suggest making them primary charges so that they can be more clearly
recognized.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord mittle at panix.com
From: mittle at panix.com (Josh Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.heraldry.sca
Subject: Re: Spiderweb?
Date: 20 Jan 1997 14:30:28 -0500
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Stephen Mumford (redline at catharsis.com) wrote:
> Actually, looking through some of my (admitadely meager) heraldry
> resources, there seems to be a number of ordinaries and subordinaries that
> I have seldom seen displayed that would help make fine arms -- fret and
> fretty are two that I have hardly ever seen. Methinks most people worry
> more about their charges themselves than the other elements that
> differentiate it from another...
Indeed. Not nearly enough people think about _distinctive_ arms rather
than "meaningful" arms.
But be careful working from mundane heraldic texts. In a catalogue of
charges, _most_ of the charges listed will be rarities. I strongly
recommend that if you can spend some time looking through a collection of
pictures of period arms, you do so. You'll see how period arms were
composed, what sorts of charges were commonly used, etc. A good place to
look is Joseph Foster, "The Dictionary of Heraldry." Many Society heralds
own copies, and it can be found in many libraries and bookstores.
Arval
From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: newbie questions
Date: 24 Feb 1997 17:24:44 -0500
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Greetings from Arval!
Erin d'Angers asked some basic questions about names and arms, and got
various answers. I'd like to fill in a few details that other people
missed.
> 1) How/Who do I submit my Standard/coat of arms?
You are not required to submit your arms to anyone. You _may_ register
your arms with the SCA College of Arms if you wish, but you are not obliged
to do so. You can display your arms whether or not they are registered.
It is considered polite to make an effort to ensure that your arms are
reasonably authentic and not identical to the arms of people you are likely
to meet; submitting your arms to the College of Arms is one way to
do that, but not the only way.
> Once submitted, what's the usual length of time for turnaround approval?
It varies from kingdom to kingdom; anywhere from 4 to 10 months.
> 2) If or once the Heraldry insigna is approved, and I belong to a house
> or I become a squire, what are the rules and courtesy within the SCA
> regarding NOT wearing a knights/house's own coat of arms in Tourneys
> instead of your own? I
Several people have said that you should absolutely never wear someone
else's arms. That rule is neither universal in the Society nor correct for
all parts of our medieval period.
If you wear someone else's arms, you are representing him. Heralds do that
all the time in the Society, just as they did in the Middle Ages.
It is less common for one fighter to bear another fighters arms in combat
in the Society, but it is a perfectly appropriate thing to do, as long as
you have permission from the owner of the arms. In effect, you would be
standing in for him on the field of honor, just as a herald stands in for
his master in other circumstances. There are numerous examples in period &
in period literature of one fighter bearing the arms of another.
> 3) Last question is about names. Any guidelines about choosing a name? I
> have been warned about using names that are too boastful, etc. Can your
> name have two lines? Such as Erin the Merciful, and Erin of Angers, or
> does it have to be one or the other?
Various answers discussed registering primary and secondary names. As
before, keep in mind that you do not have to register your name. You may
do so, but you need not.
It is quite common in the Society to use more than one name. And it is
excellent re-creation to do so, for personae based on most time and places
in our period. In different circumstances, you would be known by different
descriptions. If you give us an idea when and where you think your persona
is set, we can make more specific suggestions.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord mittle at panix.com
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 19:59:38 -0400
From: Robert J Welenc <rjwelenc at erols.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re:Period (Was: orange history
>I would say that they are trying to document things according to the
>definition of the SCA as set forth in Corpora. As an organization there are
>set limits to certain defined things and those things are usually Eurocentric
>or confined to cultures that European nations came into contact with until
>1600 CE.
>
>Cavalier is an exception (1650 CE). Heraldry is an exception (1450 CE). And,
>IMO, cookery should be an exception (1450 CE). :-)
Good Gentle, Back In the Dim Dark Ages of the Society, the cutoff
date for heraldry was (I believe) 1485. But for many years now it
has been the same 1600 CE as is called for in Corpora. <insert dark
and gloomy mutterings about 'tacky Tudor heraldry'...> And in name
formation, we accept dates into the 'grey area' up to 1650.
Alanna Volchevo Lesa
Golden Dolphin Herald
Submissions, Atlantia
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:37:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Arms, was Mairi Ceilidh
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
--- AEllin Olafs dotter aellin at earthlink.net wrote:
> I did ask if a merchant would have a device of any sort
> - like a trademark, or shipping marks (I've worked in modern import
> trade, and can reel off shipping marks for many department stores
> without stopping to think) but it seems that this came much later. Pity.
Not true. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the earliest recorded use of a trademark is 1571. In 1571, R. Matthews was given letters patent to use a half-moon as his mark.
Huette
From: Hillary Greenslade <hillaryrg at yahoo.com>
Date: June 29, 2009 5:16:34 PM CDT
To: ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] needing some heraldry assist and artwork
<<< I have a task I am trying to complete... a coronet for someone very special.
The center piece for this will be a rampant child sinister..... Could
someone who is able draw me this? I would also need
permission to use it for the coronet as well :)
Chass the Arse aka Lord Charinthalis Del Sans of the
portable Chariot >>>
You may want to search on 'Heraldry ClipArt', as there are a number of sites out there, some SCA related, that maintain images for heraldry use:
http://www.heraldicclipart.com/
http://www.heraldryclipart.com/
http://www.digiserve.com/heraldry/clipart.htm
http://www.coatsofarms.addr.com/clipart.htm
http://www.princetonol.com/groups/iad/lessons/middle/herald.htm
http://genealogy.about.com/od/heraldry_clipart/Heraldry_Clipart_Pictures_Graphics.htm
You can also search on 'Heraldic Art':
http://www.heraldic-arts.com/index.htm
And if you look around at some of the various kingdom websites for their Heraldic office, you may find some other great links found or created by SCA members.
http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/links.html
Good luck, Hillary
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 12:29:06 +1100
From: Paul Sleigh <bat at flurf.net>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] [announce] Heraldry fees, submissions and
registrations.
To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"
<lochac at lochac.sca.org>
2010/1/5 Grooby, Peter <Peter.Grooby at airways.co.nz>:
<<< What is the current 'state of the art' with respect to the format of colour device submissions?
Is a quality laser printed printout acceptable or do they still need to done with felt-tips/paint? >>>
From the unofficial heraldry FAQ for the kingdom [of Lochac]:
<http://flurf.net/heraldry/papers>;
You must not use pencils, crayons or colour printers, whether inkjet
or laser, to produce your colour copies.
Colour photocopiers are also right out: when I was baronial herald,
they were still allowed on a case-by-case basis, but the colour
reproduction was utterly random and I?m not surprised that the policy
is now to avoid that source of pain.
You should use textas (?markers? if you?re American), and the absolute
best are the Crayola Classic markers you can find at most good
stationery stores.
And here's more information than you'll ever need about textas
(markers) and the like: <http://flurf.net/heraldry/textas>; and
<http://flurf.net/heraldry/texta-details>;
The short explanation is that colour inkjet and laser printer inks are
sticky, so they can glue pages together. They also don't reproduce
the colours on the screen with any kind of reliability, and they fade
with time and heat. They're convenient only for a few weeks before
these flaws come to the fore, and the results are nasty.
: Bat, Mortar :
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 15:42:34 +1300
From: tamara at suncrow.com
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Heraldry fees, submissions and registrations.
[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
To: lochac at lochac.sca.org
Quoting Al Muckart <silver at where.else.net.nz>:
<< On 5/01/2010, at 3:04 PM, Stark, Karen wrote:
< I have a stupid question, how come you can't use a good colour laser copier?
Kashia (who's been putting off submitting her device for at least
5yrs now)... :-) >
>>
Because while the colors used by some copiers/printers are stable over
time and under various conditions, many if not most of them cause
problems -- either they are sticky, or the red turns orange or the
purple turns grey or the yellow disappears completely, etc. There's
no way to tell whether any given printer/copier good until after the
submission has been rained on in the post, sat in the back window of a
hot car, and been kept in the filing cabinets in a
non-climate-controlled garage for twenty-five years.
Having accurate color pictures is important because:
<< Because the SCA CoH, unlike every other heraldic authority in the
world, registers the emblazon (the picture on your form) not the blazon
(the heraldic description of said picture).
It's stupid, and causes far more problems than it solves, but it's the
Way Things Are Done(TM). >>
Which is not stupid if you consider that for every other heraldic
authority in the world, you don't get to design your own arms -- a
professional herald does it for you. You don't have to know the
rules; you don't have to "speak heraldese". You take what you get:
you don't have a nice SCA herald trying to help you get what you want.
How many people on this list know the difference between "three swords
palewise" and "three swords in pale" ? How many would rather not have
to know to submit a device ?
Kazimira
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 14:46:37 +1100
From: Paul Sleigh <bat at flurf.net>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Heraldry fees, submissions and registrations.
[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"
<lochac at lochac.sca.org>
2010/1/5 Rob Bolin <rob at unigon.tv>:
<<< IANAH but last time I checked, the CoH didn't look through reams and reams
of pretty pictures to see in any conflicted. They look through the list of
blazons to check conflict... >>>
I wish Shauna Ragged Staff were here. She's the herald in the College
of Arms who maintains the files for the whole of the SCA. She'll tell
you all the ways the emblazons are used long after they're filed. One
obvious one is for visual checks. For example, my wife's device is
<Gules, a pile Or>, which is a yellow triangle issuing from the top of
the device, on a red field. This conflicted with Fearmac McLeod,
<Barry and per pale sable and argent, chausse gules>. To check that
there was a visual conflict, I believe the file was examined. Baron
Fearmac's device has what looks like <Gules, a pile barry sable and
argent> but blazoned a totally different way. He kindly gave
permission to conflict, so we got it passed. But it's a good example
of the unintended consequences of a complex system.
<<< I, too, was always told that the emblazon was
just there to provide additional information on your preferred
arrangement. >>>
That's one reason, but there are many more.
: Bat :
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 16:49:52 +1300
From: Wakeline <chollitt at ieee.org>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Heraldry fees, submissions and registrations.
[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
To: The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list <lochac at lochac.sca.org>
Rob Bolin wrote:
<<< IANAH but last time I checked, the CoH didn't look through reams and reams
of pretty pictures to see in any conflicted. They look through the list of
blazons to check conflict... >>>
The CoA look at the pictures much more frequently than might be
expected. As you say, the vast majority of devices can be cleared of
conflict by looking at the blazon, but I believe that they need to do a
file pull on a dozen or so submissions a month at Laurel level to do a
visual comparison.
Wakeline
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 18:41:03 +1300
From: Wakeline <chollitt at ieee.org>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] herald questions
To: The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list <lochac at lochac.sca.org>
Stefan li Rous wrote:
<<< It is apparently
possible to pass on a device using a heraldic will, but I don't know
how much that is done. Or even the details about how this is done. >>>
It is pretty straightforward. You simply send a letter through the
normal heraldic channels. There are several standard wordings in
appendix of the Administrative handbook of the College of Arms
(http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/admin.html#APPENDIXD), but you
are not constrained to use those. Mind you, if you were to try something too
obscure it Laurel would return it as being unworkable.
<<< It would seem that there would be an accumulation of no longer used devices. >>>
Yes, there already is. It will get worse of course.
<<< I managed to register a simple, straight-forward device over
15 years ago, but I wondered then how much longer this could be done.
(It can seen on the Florilegium web site) I think it is still
possible, although some charges are getting rather hard to do. Try
registering anything with a lion on it for example. >>>
It is still possible. Obviously some things are getting more difficult,
but heraldic space is a very long way from being "full" at this stage.
In the absence of any rule changes I would expect that we would still be
able to register strikingly simple armory for decades yet. But, as you
suggest, it will become increasingly more interesting to find them.
<<< A single, unused device does not use up only one "slot" but also keeps
any other similar device from being registered unless it a certain
number of minor or major differences apart. I don't remember the exact
details. >>>
We don't have major and minor differences anymore, but your point is
well taken. One of the matters under consideration in the current rule
review is whether the required difference between devices can be
reduced. That could open up heraldic space significantly.
<<< What was the solution for this same thing in period? There wasn't one
single registry so I guess it was possible to have the same device/
cost of arms registered to different people in different countries, so
maybe this was less of a problem. >>>
A real medieval heraldic jurisdiction had far fewer pieces of armory
than the SCA already has. They also had the use of various cadency
systems to manage related individuals, which we don't have in the SCA
(not for registration anyway). That allowed a more dense "packing" of
heraldic space if I can put it that way. The current SCA system is based
on requiring any two registrations to be at least two cadency steps
removed, so by definition our heraldic space is more sparcely populated
than in period.
<<< What happened when all direct descendants of the owner of a device
died? Did it revert to the Crown? Or did it get inherited along
indirect descendants? >>>
Indirect descendants. ISome families die out of course, but the armory
remains. After all, somebody could come up with new evidence to show
that they are a descendant of so-and-so and therefore entitled to an
supposedly extinct piece of armory. It is perfectly possible to wander
along to the College of Arms in London with a bunch of documents and
prove your right to bear some piece of armory.
<<< If things get too congested, we might have to go to a system where
legal, non-infringing devices are so difficult to construct that it
requires a trained herald to ferret them out. >>>
I guess it will happen eventually. I suspect it is not something that
any of us reading this list will need to worry about though.
<<< I have heard of individual heralds spending time creating new,
available devices which their clients could then choose and register,
but I've never heard of this been done in a systemic way. >>>
Yes, this has been tried a number of times. As a general rule people
don't seem to like that approach much.
Wakeline
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 15:45:59 +1000
From: Braddon Giles <braddongiles at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] herald questions
To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"
<lochac at lochac.sca.org>
GREAT questions Stefan. I'll do my best.
2010/1/5 Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com>:
<<< Which brings up something I've wondered about. It is apparently possible to
pass on a device using a heraldic will, but I don't know how much that is
done. Or even the details about how this is done. >>>
In your normal will write a clause saying "I release my name and
device held by the SCA College of Arms", or transmit them to a
recipient. Easy. Your executor should be able to take care of that.
Write to the College of Heralds.
<<< It would seem that there would be an accumulation of no longer used devices.
I managed to register a simple, straight-forward device over 15 years ago,
but I wondered then how much longer this could be done. >>>
Not easy, but not impossible. It depends on how flexible the submiter is.
<<< It would seem that keeping all these unused devices around, often simple
ones because early-on there was less likely a conflict to be worked around,
leads to unperiodly complex devices. >>>
Um, yes and no. Unperiodly complex designs come mostly from lazy
heralds and uneducated submitters. I can still register most things
singly and with 3 tinctures - easy. You might have to have a multi
coloured lion, but as I said it is about submitters flexibility more
than anything else.
<<< What was the solution for this same thing in period? There wasn't one single
registry so I guess it was possible to have the same device/cost of arms
registered to different people in different countries, so maybe this was
less of a problem. >>>
Killing the other guy. Seriously. Or taking him to court - Grosvenor
vs Scrope is the early famous example. At the extreme we could go to
independant heraldic jurisdiction in each Kingdom, but I suspect the
College of Arms will have to be very stressed before that occurs.
<<< What happened when all direct descendants of the owner of a device died? Did
it revert to the Crown? Or did it get inherited along indirect descendants? >>>
That depended on whether there was land as well as the shield :)
<<< Perhaps devices should have to be re-registered every ten years or so, or
they become up for use by someone else. >>>
We choose to honour those who came before us, made this game and
entrusted into our hands. One of those ways is to protect their
heraldry. I think we will have to be pretty desperate before we turn
over the armoury of the Great and the Good from long ago, don't you?
<<< I have heard of individual heralds spending time creating new, available
devices which their clients could then choose and register, but I've never
heard of this been done in a systemic way. >>>
It is a possibility, but I find that submitters want things that they
are committed to, rather than what i say will be good for them.
Choosing from a list that I have already made doesn't come out
positively.
Giles Leabrook.
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 16:48:27 +1100
From: Paul Sleigh <bat at flurf.net>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] herald questions
To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"
<lochac at lochac.sca.org>
2010/1/5 Wakeline <chollitt at ieee.org>:
< I have heard of individual heralds spending time creating new, ?available
devices which their clients could then choose and register, ?but I've never
heard of this been done in a systemic way. >
<< Yes, this has been tried a number of times. As a general rule people don't
seem to like that approach much. >>
Heh. I did exactly that, by producing a list of what I called Simple
Devices. These were ones that fit the pattern <$TINCTURE, a $ORDINARY
$TINCTURE>, as in <Sable, a chevron Or>, <Argent, a pile gules>,
<Ermine, a bend sinister purpure> and so on. Some other heralds
wandered through the list and found ones that were as yet
unregistered, and my wife chose one as her own, which is why she is
now the cause of envy among other heraldic customers.
But yes, it doesn't happen often. One day I'll write a program that
does automated conflict-checking, and then it'll be possible to
programmatically generate every non-conflicting device matching an
arbitrarily specific pattern. But not this week.
: Bat :
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 22:08:22 -0800
From: "Frederick J. Hollander" <flieg at berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] herald questions
To: The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list <lochac at lochac.sca.org>
Flieg here --
Good questions, but not to worry. The number of possible devices
which might reasonably be considered simple probably numbers in the
millions, possibly in the tens of millions. Remembering that simple
devices are easier to get passed than complex ones, let me suggest that
probably 80% of these are in conflict with some other member of the set.
That still gives us hundreds of thousands of simple devices. Most of
them haven't been registered (duh).
The question of what to do about the filling of "heraldic space" has
been brought up time and time again. The answer is that we are still
registering simple devices. In fact we are registering more of them now
than ever before, as some people become more educated about heraldry.
The big furor over ceasing to protect most mundane armory was supposed
to free up great rafts of heraldic space. Most of it has yet to be
occupied.
My experience has been that something like half of the people who are
looking to register something don't care what a simple heraldic device
is: they want what they want. The other half gasp when shown something
clean, medieval and clear of conflict, and say, "I can have *that*?" in
awe and wonder. Those are the clients I like.
As for arbitrarily releasing armory. Well, even if someone has left,
the people he/she interacted with have not. And if they were a peer, or
a crowned head, it becomes even more problematic to release historical arms.
Our ancestors, as you note, had multiple heraldic jurisdictions, lax
regulation (if any) and a simple way to settle any arguments (*whack!*).
We have global movement, a much more firmly engrained sense of "mine",
and other modern sensibilities.
-- Quick thoughts off the top of my head. This really is an old topic
(tho not in the Shambles)
-- With respect
Flieg -- old used herald.
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 06:50:36 +0000
From: Jenny Andersen <jla_mni at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] stability of colours
To: <lochac at lochac.sca.org>
<<< I'm still not convinced on laser colour printing being majorly affected in storage. I just looked through a filing cabinet behind me and found some colour printing from 5 years ago. The reds look quite red and the yellows looked quite yellow... >>>
The other one is of course the metallic pens - they apparently go black and sticky - apart from the one i used to colour my first submission which 12 years later (in an un-airconditioned house living in a stifling plastic sleeve) are still golden and unsticky.
maeve
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 09:16:05 +1000
From: Braddon Giles <braddongiles at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] heraldic colors
To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"
<lochac at lochac.sca.org>
2010/1/5 Chris de Lisle <cmdelisle at gmail.com>:
<<< As regards post-period tinctures.
Murrey was mentioned above, it being a reddish purple?
My heraldry book claims orange can be called "tenn?"? It claims both
tinctures are "ancient," which is so vague as to lead me to suspect it
of not being a very good heraldry book.
(Wikipedia, always a reliable source, supplies further odd non-period
tinctures such as: carnation (skin-colour), bleu celeste (sky-blue),
cendr?e (grey), ash, brun?tre (brown)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tincture_(heraldry)#Later_tinctures)
YIS
Ioannes >>>
All the tinctures Ioannes mentions were indeed used in heraldry,
particularly French, but after our period. Heraldry is an evolving art
and science, that changes glacially, but it does change. Carnation as
a word only appears in the C17th (with the same root of "flesh" as
carnivore). Brown had been used in heraldry of course for wood, wood
objects and brown creatures (like bears) when termed "proper", but was
only used as an independent heraldic tincure well after our period.
Think of the Hawthorn AFL colours - Or and brunatre.
All the later colours can be found in period heraldry, but in tiny
details. An orange tree proper has orange oranges, but there are no
chevrons tenne. The later tinctures used indepently on major charges
are a clear sign of when the device was made - out of our period.
They are cool, though. I love tenne.
Giles
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 13:21:45 +1100
From: Talith Jennison <talithj at unimelb.edu.au>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Order of Chivalry - privileges - a question
To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"
<lochac at lochac.sca.org>
<<< that a new knight is asked "By what name do you wish to be Knighted "
and this name becomes their registered name regardless of the CoL's
objections. >>>
<< Dude. That is totally an urban legend. >>
Seconding this. It's nonsense. Previously a new peer was entitled to a
free change of name, but all the usual registration requirements still
applied. Last time I can think of anyone taking up the offer was a Pel
back in 1996.
Tamsyn
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 12:18:17 +1000
From: Braddon Giles <braddongiles at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Order of Chivalry - privileges - a question
To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"
<lochac at lochac.sca.org>
2010/1/19 <masterwolf at optusnet.com.au>:
<<< Can anyone explain to my why the Chiv ceremony is the only peerage to have a
"free pass" around the college of heralds re the name of the new knight.
It is my understanding (and correct me if i am wrong) that a new knight is
asked "By what name do you wish to be Knighted " and this name becomes their
registered name regardless of the CoL's objections. ?A herald once also told
me this applies to thier blazon as well, but i am not sure >>>
As Tamara says, you've been conned or conned yourself.
You are incorrect that new Knights and Counts and Earls and Dukes get
a free, non documentation required name or device registration at
their elevation. Our rules apply to all, even those that refuse to
acknowledge them :)
The part of the ceremony including "By which name do you wish to be
Knighted... " is a reference to ancient ceremonies. A person might
enter a religious fighting order and take a new name to reflect their
new station in life. Those were often a saint's name a person
especially venerated. It equates with the ceremony a monk would
undertake in the same place.
However, that lovely theatre does not reach out of the page to turn
off other aspects of our normal processes, thank you :) One more urban
legend *smashed*! Woohoo!
Giles.
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 23:50:26 +1100
From: Raymond Wickham <insidious565 at hotmail.com>
Subject: [Lochac] Treatises on Heraldry, in Latin and English England;
15th century
To: lochac <lochac at sca.org.au>
http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/medieval/mss/lat/misc/e/086.htm
From: Tim McDaniel <tmcd at panix.com>
Date: April 16, 2010 1:48:02 PM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] honor and animals
Warning! You're about to get heraldry goo all over you.
On Fri, 16 Apr 2010, Hugh & Belinda Niewoehner
<burgborrendohl at valornet.com> wrote:
<<< As to symbols of honor in general I do not know how accurate this
site is about Heraldry (Perhaps a herald will comment) but they say
'honor' in heraldry was represented by >>>
The needle on my bogometer wrapped around the post just reading that
far.
If any page assigns "meanings" to heraldic tinctures or charges in
general, you know that it's bogus, and furthermore you should take
anything they say about heraldry with a small boulder of salt.
In certain *specific* areas, there were meanings. The ones that come
to mind:
- There was "canting", where something on the coat of arms makes a pun
on the last name of the bearer. E.g., the Talbot arms have talbots
(a breed of hound), the Lucy arms have lucy fish, et cetera.
- There were a *few* specific charges that did have meanings in
restricted geographical areas: the Red Hand of Ulster in Britain is
for baronets (post-period); gold fleurs-de-lys on blue in France
usually meant it was a member of the royal family or they received
an augmentation to their arms for service to the Crown; et cetera.
- People who were closely related could have differenced arms
(cadency). The vassal of a lord might use motifs from his lord's
arms on his own.
- There were ways of combining coats of arms to show marriage,
inheritance, claims, or offices.
But those were in specific areas and cases. There's no evidence that
people chose gold to mean nobility, black to mean steadfastness, or
whatever. Further, there are heraldic treatises and other works that
discussed the symbology of color, and they didn't agree. (I once
found something like 11 different "meanings" for gold in 5 works.)
And anyway, most armigers didn't choose arms, they inherited them.
All that "Or, three escutcheons gules" meant was that you were the son
of the guy who bore "Or, three escutcheons gules".
Worse, the page quoted mentioned a good meaning for tenne, "Worthy
ambition". Heraldic treatise authors did mostly agree that tenne and
sanguine were supposed to be used for "abatements of honor", marks of
*dishonor* added to the shield. There's no evidence that anyone ever
did, but that's what the treatise authors wrote.
"Meanings" of arms is rather like "meanings" of names. Heather Rose
Jones was not born all green, leafy, thorny, or bloomy. Someone named
Margaret is not likely to be a more or less irregular sphere of
calcium carbonate produced by a mollusc. I was named Timothy, but not
because there was evidence that I honored God. The difference between
a name and a simple adjective is that a name has become detached from
its literal meaning.
Danielis de Lincolino
From: Jennifer Smith <jds at randomgang.com>
Date: April 16, 2010 3:16:47 PM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] honor and animals
On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 1:48 PM, Tim McDaniel <tmcd at panix.com> wrote:
<<< Warning! You're about to get heraldry goo all over you.
On Fri, 16 Apr 2010, Hugh & Belinda Niewoehner
<burgborrendohl at valornet.com> wrote:
< As to symbols of honor in general I do not know how accurate this
site is about Heraldry (Perhaps a herald will comment) but they say
'honor' in heraldry was represented by >
The needle on my bogometer wrapped around the post just reading that
far.
If any page assigns "meanings" to heraldic tinctures or charges in
general, you know that it's bogus, and furthermore you should take
anything they say about heraldry with a small boulder of salt. >>>
What Daniel wrote further is very well said.
An anecdote I am particularly fond of is found in _The Heraldic
Imagination_ by Rodney Dennys. In a chapter discussing so-called
heraldic symbolism, he writes:
"The early heralds would have searched the bestiaries for information
on the beasts and birds of the world. Bado Aureo was clearly
influenced by them in describing, in his _Tractatus de Armis_, the
various beasts, birds and fishes which are borne in arms. The
'sweetness of music with melodius notes', which the Swan was said to
pour forth, is echoed by Bado Aureo who tells us that singers, when
dubbed knights or otherwise raised to eminence, ought to bear a Swan
in their arms. He goes on to say that he had, nevertheless, seen
unmusical men bearing Swans in their arms, and he therefore asked a
'King of the Heraulds why he assigned to such men to bere swannes in
armys, which were no syngers'. The king of arms replied that one
reason could be that 'they wre passing faire men', and another that
'they had longe nekkes'. It is interesting that by 1394 it was
apparently accepted in English Court circles that a king of arms was
the appropriate authority for designing and assigning arms." [quotes
from Bodlein Library MS. LAud. Misc 733, f. 9: a late 15th century
English translation of John de Badu Aureo's _Tractatus de Armis_,
itself written in 1394 or 1395.]
Further discussion of his treatise in the book seems to show that he
was a bit of a wackjob, but I thought his Swan anecdote quite amusing
and very telling.
-Emma
From: Jennifer Smith <jds at randomgang.com>
Date: April 16, 2010 4:09:03 PM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] honor and animals
On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Hugh & Belinda Niewoehner
<burgborrendohl at valornet.com> wrote:
<<< Thank you both Daniel and Emma. You have answered some of my questions about heraldry of which I am sadly very ignorant. Before 1394 and the
accepted authority of the "king of arms" how were arms assigned/chosen?
What are the earliest records? >>>
That's somewhat difficult to answer exactly. Heraldy rather evolved
from the battlefield, and didn't become a more precise science until
sometime in the thirteenth century, when they started becoming
hereditary. That's really when the lawyers and heralds (who themselves
evolved from essentially army staff officers) got involved in actually
designing, assigning, and verifying inheritance.
<<< Also since the bestiaries were consulted by the early heralds I assume that
they did try to assign 'meanings' to charges in the beginning? Or am I
misunderstanding again? >>>
They did, but mostly to the tinctures (planets, jewels, even days of
the week!) But as Daniel pointed out, they didn't agree at all on
many points. For example, _De Insigniis et Armis_ of Bartolo di Sasso
Ferrato was written in Perugia (Italy) around 1354. It lists the
tinctures from most noble to least noble as gold, red, blue, white,
black. But then John de Bado Aureo writes in his _Tractatus de Armis_
in 1395 in England, that the noblest color is white, then black, then
blue, gold, red, green. Later texts go into much greater detail in
explaining allegories and whatnot, but again, they don't agree.
It also seems quite likely that the recipients of arms probably didn't
understand any allusions being made, unless they were particularly
well-read.
I suppose, therefore, that the best answer is yes -- if you want to
have a certain meaning to a charge or tincture on your arms, if you
look hard enough you can probably find that meaning in one of the many
period heraldic treatises, somewhere. :)
-Emma
From: Tim McDaniel <tmcd at panix.com>
Date: April 16, 2010 5:15:49 PM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Ansteorra] Mommy, where do arms come from?
On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Hugh & Belinda Niewoehner
<burgborrendohl at valornet.com> wrote:
<<< Before 1394 and the accepted authority of the "king of arms" how
were arms assigned/chosen? >>>
There were times and areas in which there were strong heraldic
authorities. For example, in 16th and 17th century England, heralds
would perform heraldic "visitations", checking the arms in use in
particular areas. The bearers of arms would have to show proof that
they'd been granted the arms, or that they'd been using the arms for a
long time: if so, the arms were recorded and confirmed; if not, the
arms were defaced and the bearers enjoined from using them.
There were far more times and areas without strong heraldic
authorities. People bore assumed arms: if they felt they should be
armigerous, they simply started bearing arms (and how they came up
with designs I wot not).
Danyll de Lyncoln
From: Elizabeth Bair <countessdulcia at gmail.com>
Date: June 14, 2010 2:32:44 PM CDT
To: trimaris-temp at yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [tri-temp] Royal colors?
Tamara - to answer your questions....
> > 1) OK, you have your passed arms, then you get a GOA: do you have to re-submit your arms to get the one supporter?
No. The SCA does not register supporters, crests, mantling or any of the parts of the Achievement, just the arms. So unless you actually change some aspect of your arms, you don't have to re-register it.
Of course, if you would ever earn an Augmentation of Arms, which gives you the right to add an element of someone else's arms onto your own, you would need to re-submit your arms to get the additional element approved and registered.
Usually in the SCA an Augmentation involves adding an element from the Kingdom's Arms to your arms - in Trimaris it's a triskele. Sometimes it's an element from the king or queen's personal arms though. Anyway, since you are adding something to your basic arms, it counts as a change and you re-register then.
> > 2) What would you do with this full achievement when you get it? Put it on a banner? garb? etc?
The most common use is on banners or other objects (mugs, plates, wooden chests, chairs, wall hangings, whatever). You don't usually see Achievements on a lot of clothing, aside from modern t-shirts. =) You could use it on the back of a cloak or mantle though, or on a tabard, or anyplace you would put your arms. Generally though, it's most appropriate for places where you would use your arms within the shield shape, rather than for times when you would treat the item/garment as the whole shield... heraldic cotehardies and sideless surcoats for instance, use the whole garment or side of the garment as if it's all the "shield".
This allows the arms to be fairly recognizable even when the fabric is draped (like a skirt falling in folds). An Achievement really needs a flat space or the arms get lost.
Dulcia
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 14:02:50 +1000
From: Alexander a la Fontayne <alexanderalafontayne at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Heraldic curiosity
To: The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list <lochac at lochac.sca.org>
On 20/04/2011 13:20, Cian Gillebhrath wrote:
<<< Apparently in the real world, Kate Middleton's father has just registered
his own arms:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/04/20/3196664.htm
Under SCA rules, will that mean that any SCA arms that clash with the
father of the potential future Queen of England, New Zealand, Australia
etc. will no longer be valid?
Cian >>>
New registrations would be returned if it was determined that the
Middleton arms were worthy of protection (this is very likely). Old
stuff already registered would be covered by the grandfather clause.
--
Alexander a la Fontayne,
Seneschal of the College of St Aldhelm
Cordon Rouge Herald
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 14:21:38 +1000
From: Mark Calderwood <giles at sca.org.au>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Heraldic curiosity
To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"
<lochac at lochac.sca.org>
On 20/04/2011, at 1:20 PM, Cian Gillebhrath wrote:
<<< Apparently in the real world, Kate Middleton's father has just
registered his own arms:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/04/20/3196664.htm
Under SCA rules, will that mean that any SCA arms that clash with the
father of the potential future Queen of England, New Zealand,
Australia etc. will no longer be valid? >>>
I don't know if they would be 'significant' enough: I wouldn't guess so.
In any event, real world heraldry being different to SCA heraldry,
Kate won't actually use those Arms except in a decorative sense:
she's not a heraldic heiress as her father is still alive, and after
her marriage she will use the arms of Prince William.
(She also won't have a title per se, either, the correct style being
HRH Princess William of Wales. If William is granted a dukedom,
however, she would be commonly known as Catherine, Duchess of wherever.)
Giles
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 14:29:05 +1000
From: "Steve Maynard" <smay1968 at bigpond.net.au>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Heraldic curiosity
To: "'The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list'"
<lochac at lochac.sca.org>
<<< I don't know if they would be 'significant' enough: I wouldn't guess
so. >>>
Ummmm wouldn't bet on that, as this has appeared in the world media and now
publically associated with her there is a fair chance it will be.
<<< In any event, real world heraldry being different to SCA heraldry,
Kate won't actually use those Arms except in a decorative sense:
she's not a heraldic heiress as her father is still alive, and after
her marriage she will use the arms of Prince William. >>>
No, when they announced the Middleton Arms they also announced that after
the marriage her father's arms will be impaled with that of William's
William
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 14:37:37 +1000
From: Mark Calderwood <giles at sca.org.au>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Heraldic curiosity
To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"
<lochac at lochac.sca.org>
On 20/04/2011, at 2:29 PM, Steve Maynard wrote:
<<< No, when they announced the Middleton Arms they also announced that
after the marriage her father's arms will be impaled with that of William's >>>
If a warrant is issued by the Sovereign. Even so, it's a very unusual
departure from Royal heraldic protocol. But then, they are quite nice
Arms and probably should be shown off.
Giles
To: MedievalTrivia at yahoogroups.com
Subject: BALDWIN OF EREBOR [oldie but goodie]
Posted by: "Shane B" shaneb at ij.net
Date: Wed May 4, 2011 3:46 pm (PDT)
The Herald's Complaint
by Baldwin of Erebor
When I was just a pursuivant at Herald High
I studied with a conscience as the days went by;
I listened to the lectures and took note of evry phrase
And I gave my life to learning the correct heraldic ways.
But with ev'ning come and classes closed and midnight candles burnt,
I would lie in bed and hearken back to all that I had learnt, And as
I lay near slumber's door beneath the candle's gleam
An eerie vision came to me appearing in a dream - It was
a dove displayed upon a billet chequy or and gules
Between a pair of cockatrices clad in motley like a fool's. Their
feathers were dimidiated with a tree eradicated
Limbed and fructed counter compony.
Beside the field of honor at a tournament
I was resting from my labors in the herald's tent
When my reverie was broken by a newly-belted knight
Who had come for some assurance that his coat of arms was right.
I sat him down and talked to him about simplicity
And shared with him the good advice that had been taught to me. "My
lord," he said, "My thanks to thee, you really have been kind. Now
let me tell you of the coat of arms I have in mind. I want
a dove displayed upon a billet chequy or and gules
Between a pair of cockatrices clad in motley like a fool's. Their
feathers are dimidiated with a tree eradicated
Limbed and fructed counter compony."
"Your blazon is impossible," was my response.
"It's so complex, the college would reject it at the nonce.
It breaks the rules of heraldry; it can't be done, you see.
Besides, the arms you've blazoned have been registered to me. I have a
a dove displayed upon a billet chequy or and gules
Between a pair of cockatrices clad in motley like a fool's. Their
feathers are dimidiated with a tree eradicated
Limbed and fructed counter compony -
And those are the arms that belong to me!"
Lyrics and music copyright 1978, 1979 by Derek Foster.
Reproduced and posted by Mark A. Foster, with the author's permission.
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 07:23:47 -0500
From: Amie Sparrow <troenwolf at hotmail.com>
To: Merry Rose <atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
Subject: [MR] Question about fighters & unpassed heraldry
I have a question about unpassed heraldry. My husband is a new heavy fighter (Fighter 1) and I have another friend who is also a new heavy fighter (Fighter 2). I am working with the assumption that fighters need heraldry.
What do we do in a situation where the heraldry has not been submitted yet? The two situations are slightly different.
Fighter 1 - Has passed heraldry, but wants new scarier heraldry. Should he use his current heraldry until the new heraldry gets approved? Or can he start using the new scarier heraldry because he likes it better?
Fighter 2 - Does not have heraldry at all. What should she do? Can she create a tabbard with heraldry that is being submitted while the submission works its way through the heraldic review process?
Fighter 3 - For good measure, I'm going to assume that there is at least one new person reading the Merry Rose and wants to fight, but doesn't have the foggiest idea of what heraldry he or she wants. What should that person do if that person wants to fight at an event?
You can assume that none of these fighters is going to be in a crown tournament before heraldry is passed, so we can remove that possiblity from the discussion.
I have skimmed the SCA Marshall's Handbook and the Atlantian Book of Policy. I did not find anything that implied a fighter had to have heraldry at all (much to my surprise).
What should these fighters do?
Amie
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 08:57:28 -0400
From: "Rachel/Rozsa" <raerosado at gmail.com>
To: Amie Sparrow <troenwolf at hotmail.com>
Cc: Merry Rose <atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
Subject: Re: [MR] Question about fighters & unpassed heraldry
As someone who has made a great many heraldic surcoats for fighters (and
various other heraldic items) I would highly recommend that nothing should
be made in heraldry that has not passed or is going to be changed. A lot of
work is put into anything heraldic - and some of those items may be around
for a great many years and it would be a disappointment for all that work to
go into something that may not be usable/correct 6 mos from now.
I have never seen a law or requirement that a fighter has to wear heraldry
on the field in order to fight - so they are good there.
If they want something spiffy - consider tabards that are just in their
favorite heraldic colors. Parti-colored or quartered are perfectly
acceptable - or decorated in just neat medieval decorative designs. There
are tons of fighters on the field that don't wear heraldry but have used
fancy fabrics or put neat designs on their tabards.
Have fun with it - take your time on your heraldry as it is something that
is very personal and will represent you for a great many years. And THANK
YOU for taking the time to help get your fighters looking purty!!! :)
If you have any questions for me personally, please feel free to contact
me.
Rozsa (who is not a herald but loves decorating with heraldry)
*************************************
*Baron? Bessenyei Rozsa
Emergency Kingdom Seneschal*
*Eastern NC Regional Seneschal *
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 06:03:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: J. C. Smith isp?n <jsmithcsa at yahoo.com>
To: Atlantia Mailing List <Atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
Subject: Re: [MR] Question about fighters & unpassed heraldry
There are no laws about this kind of thing, but here is my advice as a long-time
herald and fighter (the latter, not recently).?This is just my opinion -- others
may, and probably will, disagree.
1. It's up to the fighter -- he can use his currently registered heraldry or
none at all.? I tend to discourage folks from using unregistered heraldry*.
2 & 3. Best to use a blank tabard/surcoat/shield until something is registered.
*I got some good advice when I was a newbie that I have often repeated: don't
sew or paint anything that may change when it's registered. Do you really want
to rip out and redo that surcoat because Laurel rules that the scary monster
needs to be portrayed a certain way, or can't be used at all? Do you really
want to repaint that shield for the same reason?? Better to be patient.
Barcsi Janos
Black Raven Herald
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 09:15:52 -0400
From: Guenievre de Monmarche <guenievre at erminespot.com>
To: J. C. Smith isp?n <jsmithcsa at yahoo.com>
Cc: Atlantia Mailing List <Atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
Subject: Re: [MR] Question about fighters & unpassed heraldry
One idea for you - if you look through period art, there are a LOT of
images out there of combattants wearing surcotes, esp., but also
occasionally using shields that do not have full heraldry, but merely
the colors of the heraldry, or perhaps a single charge from said
heraldry as an allusion to the full device.
This might be an approach your heraldry-less fighters could take - the
*colors* used in your heraldry probably will not change, even if the
details of the heraldry do, and you can always add a rendition of the
full arms later, if desired. Thus you wouldn't be *redoing* all your
work, but at least you would be "heading in that direction."
Alternatively, of course, there's no reason a fighter can't wear their
Baronial/Shire populace badge until they have heraldry of their own
(or after! I'm always proud to see WM fighters in their Baronial
tabards at any time.)
Baronne Guenievre
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 09:23:05 -0400
From: "Beverly Robinson-Curry" <brcurry at bellsouth.net>
To: "'Merry Rose'" <atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
Subject: Re: [MR] Question about fighters & unpassed heraldry
I'm gonna have to disagree with part of this, beloved sister.
<<< This gives you the right to display your arms. Until then... >>>
There is _no_ restriction prohibiting the non-armigerous (those who haven't
been awarded arms by the Crown) from registering heraldry. Or from
displaying that which they register. The difference is that before they
become armigerous, we call the design a "device" rather than "arms" (and a
badge is a badge is a badge).
There are some restrictions on the display, specifically, the 'achievement',
based upon the rank the individual has attained, but that's a
neither-here-nor-there with regard to new fighters. ;-) They just want a
tabard or shield cover.
And more heraldic display is a GOOD THING(tm)!!! Go heraldry!!!
Rhiannon
Mistress Rhiannon ui Neill
Pearl Herald (Ceremony)
Azure Decrescent Herald (Personal Title)
House Corvus, Barony of Hawkwood, Kingdom of Atlantia
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 13:17:07 -0400
From: Rorik Fredericsson <baron.rorik at gmail.com>
To: Merry Rose <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>
Subject: Re: [MR] Question about fighters & unpassed heraldry
I've been a fighter for decades and still have one of my oldest
tabards. It is a true 'turncoat' with my personnel arms on one side
and my Clan's badge on the other. These things can last close on to
forever with even a little care.
For new fighters... or even non-fighters who want to be spiffy while
helping... I recommend using your household or locality badge. Helping
your Baron or Baroness while wearing the Baronial populous badge shows
respect and gives both you and the Barony enhanced visibility. The
Kingdom badge should be used if serving the Royalty or at
inter-Kingdom events for the same reasons as using the Baronial badge
at local events. Spiff is always welcome.
Blank shields in a single heraldic color are always correct, but boring.
Painting a shield with a design probably won't get you in trouble, but
if your design is at all close to someone's registered design you will
be asked questions. The best thing to do is... DON'T. Wait for _your_
design to go through the Heraldic submission system.
--
Rorik Fredericsson
Viking Warlord
To: Gleann Abhann (mail list <gleannabhann at yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Equestrian livery/heraldry
Posted by: "Judith Wilkinson" judith_of_troll_fen at yahoo.com
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:59 pm ((PDT))
Sharing from a heraldry listserve:
The 15th century Grand Armorial équestre de la Toison d'Or is online at
http://expositions.bnf.fr/livres/armorial/index.htm
Pictures of the equestrian livery are in a lot of common heraldry books. The pages are slow loading but you can print, download, and zoom.
Judith Wilkinson
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 15:11:41 +1300
From: "katherine kerr" <vicki at webcentre.co.nz>
To: lochac at lochac.sca.org
Subject: [Lochac] heraldic depictions
Del quoting Crux:
< The bad news is that a number of devices were returned due to
careless artwork: flowers that looked like stars and so on. >
<< Why does the College of Heralds police artwork at all? >>
Because they don't want to be *too* authentic and allow mistakes in their rolls, unlike real heralds in period. To wit, based on examining Stodart's collection of Scottish armorials (my commentary):
For Kerr alone, one depiction shows Kerr of Ferniehirst arms as sable and argent, instead of gules and argent (Plate VIII); others substitute cinquefoils for mullets. The latter is blazoned in what the Heraldry Society of Scotland calls Queen Mary's Roll of 1562: Ker of phernihirst Gules, on a chevron Argent three cinquefoils Gules and in base a stag's head erased Or. The Forman's Armorial has the correct blazon: Kar of Fernyharst Gules, on a chevron Argent three mullets Gules and in base a stag's head erased Or. Stodart's facsimile shows other Kerr arms, including those of Cessford, Samuelston and one that is simply labelled "Ker of".
Should I mention that the mullets were sometimes of five or six on the same arms...
At the risk of geographical place-dropping, when I was at Ferniehist Castle recently, the curator pointed out Andrew Kerr's arms in stone above the entranceway (Dand is "my" great-uncle), and mentioned that the arms as depicted in the period masonry were actually incorrect. He was very surprised when I piped up with "Yeah, it's supposed to have a stag's head in base".....
If you want a giggle at really *really* bad heraldic artwork in period rolls, Stoddart's facsimile is worth taking a look at. The unicorn which looks like a fox terrier with an icecream cone stuck on its head is just priceless :-)
PDF available from:
https://archive.org/download/scottisharmsbein01stoduoft/scottisharmsbein01stoduoft.pdf
Cheers,
katherine
P.S. As far as I can find, the idea of having a national body to register your arms is well post-period across most of Europe, heraldic visitations notwithstanding, but who am I to inflict research on SCA tradition....<ducks for cover>
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 19:50:11 -0800
From: "Frederick J. Hollander" <flieg at berkeley.edu>
To: The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list <lochac at lochac.sca.org>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] heraldic depictions
Heh --
Good thing you qualified your P.S. since the idea of having a national body to register arms is well established in period in England. Since the SCA College of Arms is directly modeled on the English College research did inform the formation thereof.
-- Flieg the Lurker.
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 08:58:25 +1030
From: "Anwyn Davies" <anwyn at internode.on.net>
To: "'The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list'"
<lochac at lochac.sca.org>
Subject: [Lochac] Heralds, names, awards - a clarification
So for clarification:
Names and devices/heraldic arms - are *documented* and *registered* with the
College of Arms. It doesn't matter if you have been playing for fifty
minutes or fifty years, you can register a name and device providing they
meet the College of Arms rules for authenticity and uniqueness. Registration
of name and device/arms is not reliant on experience.
Awards are *given* by the King and Queen (Prince and Princess of a
Principality/Baron and Baroness of a Barony) to a person in recognition of
their achievements. Once given, your award belongs to you forever, unless
you publically choose to surrender it - it doesn't matter what name you go
by now or in the past, what name you were given your award under, or if that
name has been registered or not (although it may be that in other kingdoms
the last is not true.) Awards are given to the *person* not the *name*.
BUT! Because it is very embarrassing for Royalty to give someone an award
they already have, we keep a list (keep reading.)
The College of Arms is the governing body for all heralds in all groups in
the Known World. The head of the College of Arms, who is the most senior herald in the Known World and who has the absolute final say on registrations, is the Laurel King or Queen of Arms.
The College of Heralds is what Lochac calls the group of people in Lochac who are heralds (and happy to be identified as such.) We take Heraldry *seriously*. We do not take *ourselves* seriously. This Can Cause Problems With Communication TM.
The head of the College of Heralds is the most senior herald in Lochac, who is the Crux Australis Principle Herald, aka Crux, aka Kingdom Herald Officer.
In period, senior heraldic positions were given names that would be passed from herald to herald. The SCA has something similar:
The Kingdom Herald is called Crux Australis Principle Herald (plain Crux for short). The Kingdom Herald Officer's deputies also have names, and in Lochac, as a conceit (and because heralds love taking bad jokes to the extreme), they have names relating to period artillery - Astrolabe, Baryl, Bombarde, Canon, Coffyn, Mortar, and Rocket - and each one is a Kingdom deputy position that covers a different field of expertise.
When you submit your name and/or device for registration, you send it to the Rocket Herald, who is the first person to check it over for mistakes and conflicts. It then gets checked by a whole lot of heralds along the way from Rocket Herald through to the Laurel King/Queen of Arms. Registration of a name and a device is an *international* process. At this time, every registration must be recognisably unique and different from everyone else's name and device in the Known World. The College of Arms sets the rules for what is acceptable, and how different from each other they must be. As we as a Society learn more about period heraldry and period naming practices, these rules get argued about (a *lot*) and periodically get changed to reflect what new knowledge we have.
When you are given a Kingdom level award, whoever the herald in charge of
that event/court was, fills in a form, which the King and/or Queen sign, and
it is sent to the *Canon* Herald, whose job it is to keep track of all the
awards given - who to, when, where, etc.
This is why the list of awards in Lochac is kept in a database called Canon
Lore - it is named after the herald responsible. It could just as easily be
called "Lochac Kingdom Awards List" or even "Southern Hemisphere Shiny Shiny
List." Every Kingdom has such a list.
Because awards are given to people, you will find more names on Canon Lore
than there are people with registered names and devices. This is because
people go by different names at different times, for different reasons. If
you got an award under a name, that name will be listed on Canon Lore. If
you don't use that name any more, when you go to that old name, you will be
directed to the name you currently use - and *all* your awards will be there
(including, if Canon Herald knows about it, any awards your got from a
different Kingdom.)
In all cases relating to heraldry, arms refers to heraldic arms and no other
kind of arms. (Unless your device has a human arm on it, and then it will
only be mentioned in the blazon, so no room for mistakes there.)
In all award ceremonies, any mention of "arms" relates to heraldic arms and
no other kind (and if it doesn't, then Master Paddy and I are fixing that
along with all the grammar mistakes, formatting foobars and other problems
with the Kingdom Ceremonies. The Great Kingdom Ceremony Overhaul
continues...)
Hope that made some things clearer. I shall now don my ceremonial Hat of
Correction and await my fellow Heralds to tell me where I got it wrong
(because more than three heralds in total agreement is a Portent.)
Blodeuwedd y Gath, who can additionally be found on Canon Lore as Blodeuwedd y Gath o Nedd and who will probably turn up there under another name at some point.
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 18:11:18 +1300
From: "katherine kerr" <vicki at webcentre.co.nz>
To: lochac at lochac.sca.org
Subject: [Lochac] registering arms with a national body
-- Flieg the Lurker.
Hey, nice to "see" you :-)
<<< Good thing you qualified your P.S. since the idea of having a national
body to register arms is well established in period in England. Since
the SCA College of Arms is directly modeled on the English College
research did inform the formation thereof. >>>
I always qualify statements cos I'm happy to admit that further information may require a change of mind.
<<< From the reading I've done, heraldry pre-1600 was much more fluid than dear old Fox-Davies or Innes et al would have you believe, and the heralds' role far less important....(remember, almost all the heraldry books are written by heralds :-). >>>
Assumed arms -- even by, shock horror gasp, commoners, burghers and the like -- seemed to be pretty common across a batch of countries (including England, France, Germany), being mentioned by various writers as perfectly legit up to at the least the 1500s; though you got additional brownie points if a prince or king was involved in getting you armed up. But you were perfectly fine to start wearing arms you liked without any reference to any regulatory system, let alone national registration.
There was an objection against someone local assuming the arms already worn by someone else nearby:
....if a man, or his house, has adopted a new coat-of-arms and has worn it publicly, lords should not support any other man of that town or region who desires to adopt it, for such arms are adopted for the sake of distinction and difference, and in such case we should have no distinction by which to recognize people, and the result would be confusion.
But note that was based on the grounds of it being confusing, not of any regulations against it.
Bartolus (14C), for example, says that you can assume arms and you have a right to take action against anyone who afterwards adopts the same. Though note that this is seen as a personal matter; not a matter of national registration/restrictions. Ditto with Bonet and Lull and others, though at least one of those suggests the soverign should step in if there was a dispute. Most of them who mention it are also of the opinion that assuming the same arms as another should get stomped on if they were doing it with an intention to deceive.
(Most of the writers on this topic are continental, but the manuals and such were passing across borders, translated, repeated etc so it's not unreasonable to consider such views would have been reflected in the UK. Certainly the canon of Salisbury in 1440 talked about assuming arms as an acceptable practice.)
Yes, heraldic visitations were happening in the UK from 1530 onwards in somewhat desultory fashion, but I think that's a different thing, focused on stopping unlawful or irregular display and recording pedigrees (sometimes even correct ones!); it didn't involve a national registration system per se as far as I can figure -- the distinction may be seen as subtle, but it's an important one. Or am I putting too fine a point on it?
<<< From what I have been able to find, the College of Arms in England didn't start *requiring* registrations with them as a national body until the 17th century -- haven't got the reference to hand, but I think it was something to do with James I's eagerness to create baronets and other revenue sources, which required greater visible policing if people were to get a bang for their buck. >>>
I admit, it's been a while since I looked at this, so my files may be a tad dated; I'll be working my way through the records of visitations, and rechecking my books. I've asked the College of Arms-- the real one (gosh isn't it confusing having exactly the same name for two organizations ... :-), if they could kindly send me a copy of their 1484 Charter to see what rights and privileges they were granted; perhaps that will shed light on the matter. I'm always keen to learn new things, so I'd be very pleased to see any specific references which demonstrates the national registration of arms in the UK pre-1600s.
Scotland, it's true, did have an act of Parliament in 1592 which indicates some aspect of regulation/registration there ie:
...grants full power and commission to lyon king of arms and his brother heralds to visit the whole arms of noblemen, barons and gentlemen borne and used within this realm, and to distinguish and discern them with congruent differences, and thereafter to matriculate them in their books and registers, and to put inhibition to all the common sort of people not worthy by the law of arms to bear any signs armorial... http://www.rps.ac.uk/trans/1592/4/47
Lord Lyon was pretty much operational from the 1550s, though the intense codification we see in Innes (Lyon from 1945-1969) pretty much relies on the reorganisation of 1672 (and there are suggestions that Innes himself made up quite a bit of Ye Olde Anciente Heraldrie, especially where it came to the Lord Lyon's rights, claiming it all stretched back into the mists of time. Yeah right, just like the clan tartans....).
As for other jurisdictions, France had a restriction that only nobles could use helms on their crests from 1561, but as far as I can tell, that's the only period restriction they went with. Their heraldic legislation requiring people to have their arms registered with the French King of Arms came in in 1696, as a funding stream for Louis XIV (sound famliar?).
<<< From the rolls of arms I've looked at, I'd venture to say that period Colleges/heralds were dealing with far smaller numbers than ours, and only had jurisdiction (if that) in their own country. Given the numbers in the SCA internationally, perhaps now it's time to consider splitting into regional groupings, say, the Continental Kingdoms, Lochac and Drachenwald, with separate jurisdictions. And, yes, there could be ways to manage cross-overs -- they did it in period after all... >>>
One of my favourite comments on this is from Bonet, asking what do you do if you find someone from a different country bearing your coat of arms on the field. He says that you shouldn't really worry about it (unless you want an excuse for a bit of biffo) because:
"The reasons why there should be no combat are patent and manifest; for the two men do not belong to the same kingdom and hence there can be no confusion between them in warfare, nor can any great harm result to the King. Nor can the German be dishonoured in his own country because his arms happen to be borne by a Frenchman in France, unless this were done for a dishonest purpose." (from the L'Arbre des Batailles, Bonet 14C and oft-requoted)
Those guys in period thought about this sort of thing, and they got it right....
Cheers,
katherine
From: Charles <greek_nakos at HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: [CALONTIR] O-umajirushi, Japanese Heraldry book
Date: August 27, 2014 at 4:48:40 PM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
I've posted about this over on FB but wanted to share it here too.
A fellow SCAdian is translating and publishing a book on Japanese Heraldry printed between 1624-1644. He is running a kickstarter to fund the publication of the book.
The Source
O-umajirushi is the earliest surviving color compendium of Japanese crests and heraldry. It's a 205-page book, in six scrolls, published circa 1624-1644 by a monk named Kyūan. At the time, wood block printing was just starting to allow for widespread distribution of books in Japan. O-umajirushi took advantage of this technology to make color reproductions of the various banners and other devices used by 170 different samurai commanders.
This Project
While Japanese crests have been in use for over a thousand years, most resources available today, both in Japanese and English, focus on modern and late Edo period usage, ignoring this rich history. With this project, I hope to do my part to make this history more accessible.
I will produce an annotated English translation of O-umajirushi. The core of this book will be full color reproductions of all 205 pages of the original source, courtesy of the National Diet Library of Japan. I will translate all of the names, captions, and other text in the source. Pages will be presented in right-to-left order, reflecting the order in the original scrolls.
There is more on the site, https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/xavid/o-umajirushi-17th-century-samurai-heraldry and he has already made is goal. And he is adding annotations and notes about the usage and oddness of linages and a chapter on other usages besides crests.
Nakos
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