heraldry-msg – 4/28/05
Heraldry in the SCA.
NOTE: See also the files: Herald-Embro-art, heraldry-bks-msg, heraldry-tips-msg, mottoes1-msg, arms-humor-msg, flags-art, banners-msg, Field-Herldry-art, Sinister-Hand-art.
************************************************************************
NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).
Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
************************************************************************
"I tried sleep-teaching myself heraldry. Didn't help
me, but now my cats sort their food so the red bits
are on the white floor and the yellow bits stay in
the blue bowl."
From: tmcd at crl.com (Timothy A. McDaniel)
Newsgroups: alt.heraldry.sca
Subject: Re: Please help a newbie Herald!
Date: 20 Jun 1996 11:50:48 -0500
Organization: CRL Network Services (415) 705-6060 [Login: guest]
In article <4q71nh$mb5 at hermes.acs.unt.edu>,
Randy Shipp <rshipp at flash.net> wrote:
>In the SCA, I've noticed some
>conventions that are a little different than some mundane standards.
>For instance, we say "Azure, a castle argent..." instead of "On a
>field azure, a castle argent...".
British custom is to just start with the field tincture(s). I think
French (and presumably others similarly) start with "De gules, ...".
The SCA College of Arms started with an explicitly-stated bias for
recreating English armorial practices of about 1200-1450, so it's
understandable that we use the common English custom. In any event,
we're WRITING in English, so it makes sense there too to use British
custom.
>Seemingly contrary to that is the
>custom of using "Azure, on a bend argent three mullets sable" instead
>of "Azure, a bend argent charged with three mullets sable".
"Charged with" is occasionally used in the SCA in odd cases to clarify
the blazon (e.g., "three plates each charged with a mullet gules").
Another difference I notice is that the SCA uses punctuation in blazon
and the English CoA doesn't. The English view seems to be the
lawyer's view that punctuation leads to confusion, and any legal
blazon of something that's reasonable style shouldn't need
punctuation.
>Say, are the RfS online somewhere?
Using FTP, connect to fine.mess.cs.cmu.edu and cd to /usr/kvs/pub for
lots of interesting stuff -- the Armorial, Laurel LoARs back to 6/90,
Rules for Submission, Administrative Handbook (at least skim these
last two), ...
Using the Web, however, it's ftp://fine.mess.cs.cmu.edu/kvs/pub: omit
"/usr".
Iulstan, Morsulus Herald, has set up a Web page at
http://www.sca.org/heraldry/. It has links to other places, and
points to his monthly infomercial on heraldic sources, a waty to
search the Armorial, a way to look at the Ordinary, et cetera.
I tend to avoid {www,bransle}.ucs.mun.ca. For example, the Rules for
Submission and Admin Handbooks there are drafts I posted two years
ago. The index of KWHS proceedings articles are also two years old.
--
Daniel de Lincoln
Tim McDaniel
Reply-To: tmcd at crl.com
(Work is mcdaniel at cpm.com.)
Never use mcdaniel at mcdaniel.dallas.tx.us.
From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Newsgroups: alt.heraldry.sca
Subject: Re: Please help a newbie Herald!
Date: 20 Jun 1996 13:11:25 -0400
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
> I don't think that there were any hard and fast rules about blazoning, so
> long as you conveyed your meaning.
There are standard grammars of blazon in English, French, Italian, and
Spanish; and probably in other languages. The Society uses a sub-set of
English blazonry, generally chosen for succinctness.
> I would imagine that in different areas customs developed.
Historically, that is definitely true.
> In the SCA, I've noticed some conventions that are a little different
> than some mundane standards. For instance, we say "Azure, a castle
> argent..." instead of "On a field azure, a castle argent...".
Standard English blazonry has not used "On a field azure,..." any time in
the last two centuries. A good discussion of modern English blazonry can
be found in "Shield and Crest" by Julian Franklyn. A slightly less useful
discussion is in A. C. Fox-Davies, "A Complete Guide to Heraldry".
Once you understand the structure of English blazonry, you can find good
discussions of Society blazonry in several Society publications, including
Compleat Anachronist #22 "Heraldry".
If you are interested in the early history of blazon, I recommend Gerard
Brault, "Early Blazon". It discusses blazon in the 12th and 13th
centuries.
> Say, are the RfS online somewhere?
Yes. You can find them at Elsbeth Roth's ftp site,
ftp://fine.mess.cs.cmu.edu/usr/kvs/pub/
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord mittle at panix.com
From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Newsgroups: alt.heraldry.sca
Subject: Re: SCA Heraldry, general
Date: 21 Aug 1996 14:25:45 -0400
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
> There's also the Academy of St. Gabriel (Arval Goodheart, please
> come to the argent courtesy herald; you have a message.).
Hmphm...snort? Oh, right. Justa sec...
The Academy of S. Gabriel is an unofficial heraldic constulation and
education group. We take questions about period names and armory,
primarily from people trying to choose their own names and arms or from
local heralds who need help, and we try to provide expert advice. We focus
on names and arms which fit the time and culture which interests our
client, though we also give advice on registering names and arms with the
SCA College of Arms.
For more information, please read our web page
http://www.us.itd.umich.edu/~ximenez/st.gabriel/
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord mittle at panix.com
From: Joshua Mittleman <mittle at watson.ibm.com>
Newsgroups: alt.heraldry.sca
Subject: Re: Is counterchanged still legal?
Date: 7 Oct 1996 16:46:59 -0400
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Greetings from Arval! Fein wrote:
> I had settled on this because I was told that the charge I would prefer to
> use would probably hold up the whole process at the laural level because
> its on the "overused" list... In this case a unicorns, both rampant
> (combatant) and passant.
You were told widely-believed nonsense. There are indeed lots of unicorns
registered, but it is _has_ been possible to register a unicorn. It just
takes a little work before sending in the submission.
> Last weekend at War of the Diamonds, I was told by a friend of mine, [whos
> arms just passed and are delishiously scandlous, but thats another story]
> that somebody fairly high in meridies had instituting a ban on
> "counterchanged" blazons.
This is almost certainly a mis-understanding at some level. In the remote
chance that some senior Meridien herald _is_ abusing his authority in this
manner, you could simply appeal the ruling to Laurel.
> Now this is where I start eating crow. Since I never technically
> registered my device past the local level, then I may or may not be
> protected in the typical 'grandfather' clause.
There is no such thing as registration at the local level. The only
registration is at the Society-wide level, i.e. with the Laurel King of
Arms. If you haven't registered your arms with Laurel, then they are not
registered, period.
Note that you don't _have_ to register your arms. You can use anything you
want, registered or not, and no herald has the authority to tell you
otherwise. Of course, courtesy argues that you should avoid using arms
which will cause confusion of identity, and registration is one way to try
to accomplish that goal. But not the only way.
I'm not sure what "grandfather clause" you have in mind. There are only
two correct usages of that phrase in Society heraldry.
(a) Once you register something with Laurel, it remains registered
forever, unless you ask for it to be removed from the armorial.
This rule is part of Corpora, and is not formally called a
"grandfather clause", but is sometimes referred to that way.
(b) Once you register something with Laurel, you and your close relatives
will generally be allowed to re-use elements of that name or armory
in future submissions, even if the rules have changed in ways that
would otherwise prevent it. This rule is part of the College of
Arms' Rules for Submissions, and it is called the "grandfather
clause".
Since you have nothing registered yet, there is no grandfather clause which
applies to you.
> However, since because of the way I'm looking at my arms now, there are
> no charges resting on the line of division, therefore 'technically' it is
> not counterchanged. and therefore I would just have define the tincutures
> a bit differently.
You mis-understand the word "counterchanged". A single charge or a set of
charges are "counterchanged" if they lie on a divided field, and they
inherit their color from the opposite half of the divided field. They do
not have to cross the line of division to be "counterchanged". For
example: "Per pale gules and Or, two lions rampant counterchanged." There
is a red lion on the gold half of the field and a gold lion on the red half
of the field.
In general, one does not use the term "counterchanged" to blazon the
tinctures of charges placed on other charges. Consider "Gules, a lion
rampant and on a chief Or three crescents gules" (red field with a gold
lion, and a gold chief with three red crescents). We would not blazon this
"Gules, a lion and a chief Or, three crescents counterchanged".
> First, assuming that I have described a passable device, then have I
> blazoned it correctly, or would it be better to do the "of the first" and
> "of the second" routine?
In Society heraldry, we don't use "of the first" etc. We name the
tinctures.
> Second, if two charges 'rampant' are facing each other and are then called
> 'combatant' what do you call it when you place together two passant charges
> as such?
Two beasts passant and facing each other are blazoned "passant respectant".
If they are facing away from each other, they are blazoned "passant
addorsed".
> And finally, should I just give up on trying to get a unicorn device passed
> and revert to the orginal plan?
If you want a unicorn, you'll get a unicorn. But I think you should
consider simpler designs. Both of the designs you blazoned as really too
complex for medieval armory.
> "Per chevron sable and argent two unicorns passant above a fools cap, two
> unicorns combatant on a cheif counterchanged all." ,,, Just for
> referance, the fools cap is in the "chevron" area [can't remember my
> region-of-division-and-placement names right now] with the unicorns
> passant above and then a chief with the two unicorns combatant above
> that.
I think I know what you mean here: Per chevron sable and argent, two
unicorns passant respectant and a fool's cap counterchanged; and on a chief
argent, two unicorms combatant sable." That is to say:
____________________________
| |
| unicorn unicorn |
| rampant rampant |
| sable sable <---- argent
| |
|__________________________|
| |
| |
sable --> unicorn> <unicorn |
| passant passant |
| argent / \ argent |
| / \ |
| / \ |
| / \ |
| / fool's \ |
\/ cap \/
\ sable /
\ /
\ /
\ <---- argent
\______________/
Is this correct? If so, then let me offer a couple comments.
Including the same beast is two different postures (passant and rampant) is
_very_ atypical of medieval heraldry. I strongly suggest that you avoid
it.
Placing a tall, thin charge on a chief (like your unicorns rampant) is
generally not a good idea. Because the long axis of the chief does not
match the long axis of the charge, you will be forced either to draw the
unicorns very small or the chief much too deep.
Finally, I would note that it is more common in period armory for a pair of
beasts to be facing the _same_ way rather than facing toward or away from
each other.
In fact, if you drop the charged chief altogether, and just go with the
charged "per chevron" field, you would have a very nice set of arms. I am
guessing that the unicorn is more important to you than the fool's cap,
yes? Then you may want to consider some other designs:
Per chevron sable and argent, three unicorns rampant counterchanged.
Per chevron sable and argent, a unicorn passant and in chief two fool's
caps counterchanged.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord mittle at panix.com
From: ximenez at stimpy.us.itd.umich.edu (Alan Terlep)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Need Heraldry Help?
Date: 8 Jan 1997 16:07:24 GMT
Greetings to the Rialto from Alan Fairfax!
Everyone in the SCA has gone through the effort of coming up with a
name, and many people have attempted to design arms as well. All too
often, people come up with a name, and eventually get around to
submitting it--only to find that their name and/or arms won't pass.
Others run into problems from the other end--they're interested in a
period name and arms, but can't find a herald in the area who knows
anything about 13th century Lithuanian naming practices or what a Spanish
warrior would put on his shield.
The Academy of S. Gabriel is attempting to solve both those problems. We
are a group of heralds organized to help people in the SCA develop period
names and armory. We can offer free consultations with some of the best
heralds in the SCA, and also have a growing collection of resources for
anyone interested in names and armory. We discuss every request before we
send out an answer, so you won't get conflicting information from different
people.
The Academy Web Page can be found at
http://www.us.itd.umich.edu/~ximenez/s.gabriel/
Our email address
s.gabriel at umich.edu
People without net access are, of course, welcome to talk to us;
please send an SASE and information on what you're looking for to
Alan Terlep
1617 Washtenaw
Ann Arbor, MI 48104
The Academy has totally open membership, and we are looking for more
people. Even if you don't have a great deal of heraldic experience,
you're more than welcome to join and learn.
Please spread the word--if you have a friend who needs heraldic
advice, tell them about us, or give this to your local herald.
If you have a relevant Web site, put us in it--we are trying to
reach as many people as possible.
In service,
Alan Fairfax
Herald-at-Large, Middle Kingdom
ximenez at umich.edu
From: Gretchen M Beck <grm+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Need Heraldry Help?
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:42:05 -0500
Organization: Computer Operations, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Excerpts from netnews.rec.org.sca: 9-Jan-97 Re: Need Heraldry Help? by
Rowan126 at aol.com
> Well, I'm a bit confused in general and I'm new. What's this "approval"
> process? You mean you can pick a name for yourself and a group of people
> could tell you that you cannot use it? Granted, names like "Xena Warrior
> Princess" or "William Wallace" are innapropriate... but like I said, I'm a
> bit baffled by this. On what criteria are names judged? Augh, where do I
> even start?
Not quite. You can --USE-- any name you want, including William
Wallace, and Xena Warrior Princess (course, a lot of folks will laugh at
you/give you a hard time if you do, but you can still use them)
Here's where the approval process comes in. The SCA has a sub-group
known as the College of Arms: heralds who research and register names
and armory at the request of SCA members. What the registration process
does is assure you that your name and armory meet some minimal set of
standards--i.e. they bear a passing resemblance to medieval names and
arms.
The Academy of Saint Gabriel is a group of heralds, but not officially
affliated with the SCA College of Arms. Saint Gabriel's will research
names and armory and let you know if they meet stricter standards of
authenticity -- they don't answer the question "Will the SCA register
this name/arms", but rather "Would a person at a specific place and time
have used these names and arms."
------
Now, on choosing a name--it's always a good idea to do some research
before choosing a name. I usually recommend that you choose a culture
first, then see what you can find about naming practices in that culture
in the middle ages. This includes not only "what names were used", but
"how were the different parts of a name put together", and "how did
these things change over time." Somewhere in the process, you'll want
to pick a time. There's lots of good books and reference works
available. If you don't want to do all that, many people do the "what
names were used" part, pick a first name, and let it go at that. No
registration involved. You might want to talk to the herald of your
local group, or check out the Academy of Saint Gabriel home page--it's
got both articles on name construction in various cultures, and a
bibliography name and heraldry references.
Hope this helps!
toodles, margaret
From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Newsgroups: alt.heraldry.sca
Subject: Re: Spiderweb?
Date: 16 Jan 1997 14:33:40 -0500
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Greetings from Arval! Julien de Montfort asked:
> I was wondering if anyone knows if the spiderweb was used very much in
> period arms?
It certainly was not common. I'm not sure it was used at all. Talan, do
you know?
> The device I'm thinking about (in non-blazon form, forgive me) is a black
> field with a silver spiderweb, a gold chief with three red quill pens. An
> obvious 'pun' is there, as I'm my Canton's web writer (is a device that
> describes a person's job considered canting arms?), but since I do that for
> a real-world living too, I thought it appropriate. ;-)
It is quite common in period armory for artisans to use the tools of their
trades as charges in their arms, but that is not "canting". Canting is
specifically using a charge because its name sounds similar to your
surname or the place where you live. You might cant on your name by having
a tower on a hill as the primary charge.
Personally, I would like to discourage you from representing your modern
profession in your arms. You would be introducing a purely modern
reference into something that ought to be purely part of your medieval
persona.
Quills are found in period armory, but squeezing three of them onto a chief
makes them awfully difficult to identify. If you do decide to use them,
I'd suggest making them primary charges so that they can be more clearly
recognized.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord mittle at panix.com
From: mittle at panix.com (Josh Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.heraldry.sca
Subject: Re: Spiderweb?
Date: 20 Jan 1997 14:30:28 -0500
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Stephen Mumford (redline at catharsis.com) wrote:
> Actually, looking through some of my (admitadely meager) heraldry
> resources, there seems to be a number of ordinaries and subordinaries that
> I have seldom seen displayed that would help make fine arms -- fret and
> fretty are two that I have hardly ever seen. Methinks most people worry
> more about their charges themselves than the other elements that
> differentiate it from another...
Indeed. Not nearly enough people think about _distinctive_ arms rather
than "meaningful" arms.
But be careful working from mundane heraldic texts. In a catalogue of
charges, _most_ of the charges listed will be rarities. I strongly
recommend that if you can spend some time looking through a collection of
pictures of period arms, you do so. You'll see how period arms were
composed, what sorts of charges were commonly used, etc. A good place to
look is Joseph Foster, "The Dictionary of Heraldry." Many Society heralds
own copies, and it can be found in many libraries and bookstores.
Arval
From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: newbie questions
Date: 24 Feb 1997 17:24:44 -0500
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Greetings from Arval!
Erin d'Angers asked some basic questions about names and arms, and got
various answers. I'd like to fill in a few details that other people
missed.
> 1) How/Who do I submit my Standard/coat of arms?
You are not required to submit your arms to anyone. You _may_ register
your arms with the SCA College of Arms if you wish, but you are not obliged
to do so. You can display your arms whether or not they are registered.
It is considered polite to make an effort to ensure that your arms are
reasonably authentic and not identical to the arms of people you are likely
to meet; submitting your arms to the College of Arms is one way to
do that, but not the only way.
> Once submitted, what's the usual length of time for turnaround approval?
It varies from kingdom to kingdom; anywhere from 4 to 10 months.
> 2) If or once the Heraldry insigna is approved, and I belong to a house
> or I become a squire, what are the rules and courtesy within the SCA
> regarding NOT wearing a knights/house's own coat of arms in Tourneys
> instead of your own? I
Several people have said that you should absolutely never wear someone
else's arms. That rule is neither universal in the Society nor correct for
all parts of our medieval period.
If you wear someone else's arms, you are representing him. Heralds do that
all the time in the Society, just as they did in the Middle Ages.
It is less common for one fighter to bear another fighters arms in combat
in the Society, but it is a perfectly appropriate thing to do, as long as
you have permission from the owner of the arms. In effect, you would be
standing in for him on the field of honor, just as a herald stands in for
his master in other circumstances. There are numerous examples in period &
in period literature of one fighter bearing the arms of another.
> 3) Last question is about names. Any guidelines about choosing a name? I
> have been warned about using names that are too boastful, etc. Can your
> name have two lines? Such as Erin the Merciful, and Erin of Angers, or
> does it have to be one or the other?
Various answers discussed registering primary and secondary names. As
before, keep in mind that you do not have to register your name. You may
do so, but you need not.
It is quite common in the Society to use more than one name. And it is
excellent re-creation to do so, for personae based on most time and places
in our period. In different circumstances, you would be known by different
descriptions. If you give us an idea when and where you think your persona
is set, we can make more specific suggestions.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord mittle at panix.com
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:37:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Arms, was Mairi Ceilidh
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
--- AEllin Olafs dotter aellin at earthlink.net wrote:
> I did ask if a merchant would have a device of any sort
> - like a trademark, or shipping marks (I've worked in modern import
> trade, and can reel off shipping marks for many department stores
> without stopping to think) but it seems that this came much later. Pity.
Not true. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the earliest recorded use of a trademark is 1571. In 1571, R. Matthews was given letters patent to use a half-moon as his mark.
Huette
<the end>