heraldry-bks-msg - 6/7/96 Heraldry books. book reviews. NOTE: See also these files: heraldry-msg, heraldry-tips-msg, Herald-Embro-art, banners-msg, mottoes1-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: dawyd at dasys1.UUCP (David Gurzynski) Date: 13 Dec 89 04:46:11 GMT Organization: The Big Electric Cat Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Good Gentles of the Rialto: I have had the pleasure to read a book which has been gathering dust on my shelf for rather a while! This book is: The Oxford Guide to Heraldry by Thomas Woodcock Somerset Herald and John Martin Robinson Fitzalan Pursuivant Extraordinary Oxford University Press published 1988 This rather short book, only 233 pages, is quite complete and much easier to read than the standard old standby of Fox-Davies. What I really found to be great is that in the first two chapters there is a good description of two theories of the origin of heraldry in Europe along with a quite good run down of ethnic characteristics of heraldry in Europe ranging from the Low Countries, through Spain, and Poland and Russia. The illustrations are gorgeous and from sources which I had not seen before. For example, the funeral certificate of Sir John Spencer of Althorp (died 9 jan. 1599/1600) showing a standard, guidon, helm, mantling, and crest, shield and tabard. I have previously only heard of the regalia of heraldic funerals of this period and not seen this stuff! Some of our late period compatriots should see some of this stuff. The color plates from mid 16th century Garter Roll is beautiful, and the 13th century and 14th century ordinary plates illustrate well the differing styles of the periods. I haven't finished reading this yet but I would highly reccomend this book to all heralds, and to those who might be interested. Its a good christmas or 12th Night gift for anyone! I remain, Your servant Dawyd -- David Gurzynski Jamaica NY dasys1!dawyd at cmcl2.nyu.edu mka. Dawyd z Gury Ostgardr 73647.233 at compuserve.com From: Tim Of-angle To: Andrew Salamon Date: 07-Jan-90 08:33pm Subject: Re: Books on Heraldry AS> From: salamon at sun.acs.udel.edu (Andrew Salamon) AS> Date: 6 Jan 90 18:04:52 GMT AS> Could someone recommend a good starters book on the art of heraldry? "Simple Heraldry Cheerfully Explained" by Sir Ian Moncreiffe of that Ilk, Albany Herald, and the fellow (whose name I have forgotten) who was Herald Painter to the Court of the Lord Lyon. A small hardback, about 6 or 7 inches square and no more than half an inch think, mostly pictures. I have successfully taught 10-year-olds heraldry with this book, so it ought to work even for the typical squire. Tadhg, Star Principal Herald. * Origin: Herald's Point (214)699-0057 Dallas TX (Steppes/Ansteorra) 124/5103 From: joshua at paul.rutgers.edu (Joshua Mittleman) Date: 8 Jan 90 17:23:45 GMT Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J. Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Greetings from Arval! Bleydion ap Rhys asks for some suggestions on basic heraldry references. The most common standard reference on real-world heraldry is A.C. Fox-Davies, "A Complete Guide to Heraldry" (Bonanza Books). This books is widely available in bookstores and libraries, and is owned by a good percentage of the heralds of the SCA. It is a good introduction to English heraldry, with some material on continental heraldry. It will teach you the names of charges, how to blazon, how heraldry works, etc. It is a condensed version of his much longer "Encyclopedia of Heraldry", which is a WONDERFUL source for research on period style, but difficult for a beginner. If you can find it, an even better introductory work is Julian Franklyn, "Shield and Crest". It is out of print, and available only a libraries. However, it is readable, and heavily illustrated with real armory. One flaw in Fox-Davies' book is that the illustrations show individual charges, not how they are combined. Franklyn's pictures show full devices, many in color. Every illustration is blazoned, so it is also a great way to learn English blazonry. A couple good introductory books on Continental heraldry is Von Volborth "Heraldry: Styles...". It is less thorough than the two noted above, but shows a bunch of interesting styles that you won't see in the English books. Avoid "Boutell's Heraldry". Although it is a reasonably good survey of British heraldry, it is absolutely the most boring thing written, and contains a good deal of mis-information. A good study of the historical role of the herald in European society is Rodney Dennys, "Heralds and Heraldry". Many good pictures, available is bookstores sometimes. If you are feeling really serious about it, and want to read something a little more in-depth, try flipping through Parker's "Glossary of Terms used in Heraldry" or Woodward's "A Treatise on Heraldry British and Foreign". Both are essentially catalogues of heraldic usage. Parker is pretty readable, in small doses, and contains some amusing anecdotes. Woodward is as heavy as bread-pudding, but extremely thorough. I tried to read it once, and gave up after about 150 pages. When reading any of this stuff, remember that SCA heraldry is not the same as mundane heraldry. We have our own styles, restrictions, etc. However, medieval heraldry should always be the starting and ending points. Once you get a good grounding in the terminology of heraldry, I recommend getting Compleat Anachronist #22, "Heraldry." This essay, written by Master Marten Broeker and myself, is a discussion of how to design heraldry for use in the SCA. I like to think it is pretty well-written :) It cost $2, and will be in stock at the Stock Clerk's office in a few months. Several Kingdoms have Heralds' Handbooks, which are wonderful things. The West, the Middle, and Atlantia (in preparation) all have pretty good handbooks, which are available to anyone interested (I think :). Other Kingdoms may have them. Contact a senior herald near you for information. For the more advanced student, some good ways to keep a finger on the pulse of heraldry (neat metaphors, huh?) in the SCA, are the Laurel Letters of Acceptance and Returns (monthly, available by subscription for $18/year) and my own Brigantia Letters of Report (monthly, $12 per year). The former letters summarize decisions on names and armory by the Laurel Queen of Arms, note changes in the rules, give book reviews, etc. They are THE best source for heraldry in the SCA today. However, they do require a firm grounding in the basics. My reports are similar in intent, and cover only Eastern submissions, in more detail. They come with drawings of each piece of armory. They are primarily of interest to Easterners, but are available to anyone. Finally, I would like to plug the East Kingdom College of Heralds' new quarterly newsletter, "Millrind". It is a ten page (or so) newsletter containing an assortment of articles, cartoons, and references. Regular features are "Submission: Impassable", a selection of heraldic puns in cartoon by Senor Alfredo el Bufon; "Out of the Ordinary", a series of ordinaries of armory from unusual sources. It is available to anyone by subscription for $3.00 per year. Deals are offered for contributors. If anyone is interested, I'll send you the address of the editor. I believe that the three back-issues are also available. Full information will appear in the February Pikestaff. Heraldically yours, Arval. ======================================================================== Joshua Mittleman (joshua at paul.rutgers.edu or mittle at ibm.com) H0-E12 T.J. Watson Research Center PO Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY 10598 From: almond at HUSTAT.HARVARD.EDU (Russell Almond) Date: 10 Jan 90 23:32:53 GMT Organization: Society for Creative Anachronism Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Peace be upon all from Mustapha al-Muhaddith. I just wanted to append a few additions to Lord Brigantia's excellent listing of heraldic sources. I believe that Fox-Davies has also put out a book called the "Art of Heraldry" which may be of more interest to Bleydion ap Rhys if he is trying to produces heraldic artwork. I personally tend to use a slim volume by Oliver, I've forgotten the title. But it has a relatively complete listing of field divisions, ordinaries and postures for the basic charges. It is also easier to lug to fighting practice and dance class than Fox-Davies (which must mass a good 5 kg). It was given to me as a Chrismass gift by somebody who always shops at a remaindered bookstore, so it could be cheap if it is still available. I also remember the advice given to me by Firebrand Herald when I first expressed interest: "You can trust any author with a hypenated name." --Mustapha (almond at hustat.harvard.edu) From: Allyn O'Dubhda To: Sionnaichan Am Diolaimadh Date: 18-Apr-90 08:17am Subject: Re: Two Part Question... Your intended display seems like a good idea to me. You might want to consider tapering the pennon some, as well. A very good source of information about heraldic display is Gayre's _Heraldic Standards_ - it's talking about flags and such, not rules and regulations. You will probably need to obtain it through inter-library loan since it is long out of print and not very common anyway. Yours, Allyn From: aluko at portia.Stanford.EDU (Stephen Goldschmidt) Date: 9 Apr 90 19:48:58 GMT Organization: Stanford University Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Greetings again! I now have an official price list (dated April 1st) for publications of Free Trumpet Press, including the SCA Armorial ($25) and Ordinary ($40) now complete through April of Year 23, six-month updates ($5 each), proceedings of several heraldic symposia, _The Compleat Russian Name Book_ ($10), and _The West Kingdom Heralds Handbook_ ($15). If you get the O&A together, there is a $15 discount. There is also a consolidated update (May 22 to April 23) for $15. As usual, I don't represent or work for FTP, but you can always ask me questions. mka: STephen Goldschmidt aka: Iulstan Sigewealding net: aluko at portia.Stanford.EDU geo: Palo Alto, California USA phone: (415)494-1748 From: Jeanne-Marie_Efferding%mackinac.cmi.com at RELAY.CS.NET (Jeanne-Marie Efferding) Date: 12 Jun 90 15:31:05 GMT Organization: Society for Creative Anachronism Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject:Acquiring Heraldry Experience-pt.1 I'm sure that Arval, Lord Brigantia, will respond to this, but I thought I'd squeak in my tuppence worth, too. Heraldic consulting is a very difficult job, particularly if you live in a culture where heraldry has been grossly misused for advertising purposes, as it is here in the States. In order to get a feel of good heraldic style, as Hal Ravn has suggested, get examples of heraldry. Unfortunately, many SCA examples are not the best heraldry available. I suggest these four books that every herald can use: NOTE: Not all of thse are currently available, but they are reprinted every 3 or 4 years. 1) _Boutell's Heraldry_, revised by J.P. Brooke-Little -- runs about 35.00 US currency. It is the best single book on heraldry today, in its revised form. It is not currently in the US _Books In Print_. Any edition of it will do. The older editions have book jackets depicting colourful and rare rolls of arms. This book basically outlines what heraldry is, charges, uses, the College of Arms in England, etc. It has clear, well-proportioned illustrations that are excellent models for any heraldic artist. It is one of the few books that describes charges and blazonry basically as the SCA does, with few exceptions. Do not attempt to get off cheaply by selecting books that look as if they cover the same information, such as the 6 by 8 inch books with authors like Arthur Fox-Davies or Guy Rotherby. You will only get Victorian, i.e. corrupt, heraldic information. 2) _Simple Heraldry, Cheerfully Illustrated_, by Ian Montcrieffe & Don Pottinger. Less important than the other two, but an excellent illustration of very simple devices and the use of heraldry, plus all examples are real arms. It is basically a children#213#s book, but I have taught and snagged many a good future herald by handing them this book. It runs 6.95 US currency. 3) _Heraldry: Sources, Symbols and Meanings_, by Ottofried Neubecker. This last one was remaindered in Europe recently and may still be available cheap outside the States. It usually runs about 40.00 US currency, remaindered it's about 12.00-15.00, but not currently in _Books In Print_. It is not really good for teaching heraldic principles, but it is a profuse collection of heraldic illustrations from sources throughout the ages. A passable substitute is an abbreviated version of this 4) _Heraldic Design_ by Heather Child, is for those interested in drawing up visually pleasing devices in correct heraldic style. This book is really priceless to artists and very helpful to the SCA herald. Currently sold for 18.50. I also recommend The Art of Heraldry, by Arthur C. Fox-Davies, but _only_ for the period illustrations of rolls of arms, seals, heraldic woodcuts and heraldic architecture, the majority of which are German. Most of the illustrations are corruptly Victorian, and the text is almost useless. It is a huge monster of a book, and can run from 15.00-30.00 remaindered, but 60.00 is the current list price. Aureliane AKA Jeanne-Marie Efferding Center for Machine Intelligence Electronic Data Systems Corp. Ann Arbor, MI 48105 (313) 995-0900 Internet: jeanne at cmi.com From: 504800%UOTTAWA.BITNET at MITVMA.MIT.EDU (Bill Sanderson) Date: 23 Aug 90 17:26:53 GMT On Books for Beginning Heraldry: The best book available for an overview of *good* heraldry is far and away, _Simple Heraldry, Cheerfully Illustrated_ by the late Iain Moncreiffe of the Ilk, late Lyon King of Arms and Don Pottinger, ?? Herald, chief heraldic artist to the Lyon court. It is intended as a children's book, I think, but it explains heraldry in clear and concise terms, with enough illustrated examples to make it even more clear. The late Lyon King was appalled at the Victorianesque heraldry that his predecessors had registered and wrote the book with the intent of describing what he felt was good heraldry, most of which is late Middle Ages. Because that is also the avowed purpose of the Society's College of Arms, it is an excellent introduction to Society heraldry as well. It is still in print in its second edition. There are a number of other books available on heraldry, most of which are more technical and may leave the reader confused. Some of the more useful ones: _Shield and Crest_ by Julian Franklin _An Heraldic Alphabet_ by J.P. Brooke-Little _The Art of Heraldry_ by A.C. Fox-Davies There are *lots* more. Check your local library (CR and CS sections in the Library of Congress scheme) for more books on the subject. Gwilym -------- Gwilym ap Alun Bill Sanderson "SCA politics is like a Skraeling Althing 15-210 Chapel St puppy love - Skraeling Althing Ottawa, ON It doesn't mean much Ealdormere K1N 7Y5 but it's awfully real Middle Kingdom 504800 at uottawa.ca - to the puppies." From: mittle at watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) Date: 5 Sep 91 15:52:21 GMT Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research > 5) Any good recommendations on a reference book? I use Friar, but he is more > of a dictionary than a "how-to" guide. I originally learned blazonry from Julian Franklyn's "Shield and Crest." It is out of print, but common in large libraries. Like Fox-Davies and Boutell, it is a primer on English heraldry, but unlike those books, its illustrations are real armory, rather than just pictures of individual charges. It is also equipped with an appendix of blazons for each illustration. There are many SCA references on blazonry. Any of the kingdom heralds' handbooks has an article on the subject. I happen to like the appendix on blazonry in the Compleat Anachronist "Heraldry," probably just because I wrote it. All the illustrations in that pamphlet are blazoned. Arval. From: rorice at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (rosalyn rice) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Heraldry Book Date: 23 Jun 1995 23:55:37 GMT Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington In article <3sfgoa$m98 at newdelph.cig.mot.com>, Heather L. Garvey wrote: > In a local book store I found copies of the Fox-Davies Heraldry >book. Is this book any good and is $8 a decent price? I've been thinking >of picking it up, but I didn't want to get something that's a known >crock or just not very good. However, I thought I remembered the >names and just want to check. :) Fox-Davies wrote a lot of stuff in the late 19th c. and it gets reprinted at intervals. His major work is "Art of Heraldry" which is pretty good but is maddening for its lack of footnotes, index, and supporting information. "Complete Guide to Heraldry" seems to be in the 1/2 price bookstores right now. There are two versions out there. One version has a forward by J.P. Brooke-Little (current ??? King of Arms in the English CoA) and is revised by B-L. The other is just a reprint of the Fox-Davies book. If you can get ahold of the B-L edition it is better and more complete than the F-D version, but both are pretty good as a basic heraldry text for a local herald's office novice herald or a non-herald. Keep in mind though that "Complete Guide" makes no pretense to represent medieval heraldry, and like any introductory book doesn't go into details. It also doesn't touch on anything east of England. Using Fox-Davies you can certainly learn about heraldry and you can certainly design stylistically decent heraldry, but you still won't know about medieval heraldry. So, it's reasonably good but be aware of its limitations. Lothar From: IVANOR at delphi.com Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Heraldry Book Date: 25 Jun 1995 21:55:04 GMT Organization: Delphi Internet Services Corporation Quoting garvey from a message in rec.org.sca > In a local book store I found copies of the Fox-Davies Heraldry > book. Is this book any good and is $8 a decent price? I've been >thinking of picking it up, but I didn't want to get something that's a >known crock or just not very good. However, I thought I remembered the > names and just want to check. :) It's a good basic text on the subject, and $8 is a super price (I paid $12) Actually, I believe it's one of the don't-be-without-it s in a herald's library. Carolyn Boselli, Host of Custom Forum 35: SCAdians on Delphi Ive Annor M'Quhairr of Sighty Crag, Chronicler-elect, Dragonship Haven From: nostrand at mathstat.yorku.ca (Barbara Nostrand) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Heraldry Book Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 00:38:00 -0500 Organization: DeMoivre Institute of Mathematical Sciences Noble Cousins! There are several books by Arthur Fox-Davies and they are all pretty much worth having. Further, a hardbound book for $8.00 is not such a bad thing. Whether these books are as useful for the SCA Herald as they once were is a matter of some uncertainty. Since the begining of the Gregorian year, the Society College of Arms has essentially established itself as an autonomous heraldic jurisdiction which no longer is interested in assuring the uniqueness of SCA armory with respect to historic armory. This has a number of interesting effects. Your Humble Servant Solveig Throndardottir Amateur Scholar Edited by Mark S. Harris heraldry-bks-msg Page 9 of 9