heraldc-cloth-msg - 3/15/14 Heraldic Clothing. NOTE: See also the files: arms-humor-msg, flags-art, Herald-Embro-art, Stndrds-Banrs-art, silk-banners-msg, applique-msg, Couching-art. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ To: Authentic_SCA at yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Heraldic Clothing and toque/torque/fillet question Posted by: "megatrope" megatrope at yahoo.com megatrope Date: Wed Sep 3, 2008 6:51 pm (PDT) <<< It is quite possible that no woman ever wore a heraldic surcote. Parts of this argument are badly remembered from a lecture by Robin Netherton; all mistakes mine. >>> "Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince" mentions several heraldic items made for Queen Phillipa, specifically for her to wear to tournaments in which Edward III fought. These references often refer to clothing that matched or corresponded to whatever Edward was wearing - including mottos, badges, charges, livery colors, etc. The items are generally called "gouns", which may refer to what we call cotehardies - or at least something along those lines. There are also references to women's heraldic clothing (serving the same or similar functions) in a book called "The Performance of Self" by Susan Crane. Both of these books discuss the heraldic functions associated with the tournament - not just battle, but "mock" battles. So, wearing heraldic clothing became popular for spectators who were effectively showing their support for one of the entrants. I have an article on this topic on my website if you're interested... if nothing else, it has the full bibliographies of the two books I mentioned ;-) http://web.mac.com/megatrope/Personal/Heraldic_Clothing.html Cecilia To: Authentic_SCA at yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Heraldic Clothing and toque/torque/fillet question Posted by: "Rebecca Klingbeil" bekkamom2001 at sbcglobal.net tidbits_bekka Date: Thu Sep 4, 2008 4:25 am (PDT) --- On Wed, 9/3/08, megatrope wrote: <<< Both of these books discuss the heraldic functions associated with the tournament - not just battle, but "mock" battles. So, wearing heraldic clothing became popular for spectators who were effectively showing their support for one of the entrants. >>> It sounds almost like the medieval equivalant of wearing your team colors/logo/etc. at a sporting event. She was wearing her 'team colors' by wearing heraldic clothing that matched her husband's. Interesting. Leofwynn To: Authentic_SCA at yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Heraldic Clothing Posted by: "Cindy Myers" emmelyne at silkewerk.com emmydoc Date: Thu Sep 4, 2008 6:16 am (PDT) > It is quite possible that no woman ever wore a heraldic surcote. > Parts of this argument > are badly remembered from a lecture by Robin Netherton; all > mistakes mine. > > "Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince" mentions several heraldic > items made for Queen > Phillipa, specifically for her to wear to tournaments in which > Edward III fought. These > references often refer to clothing that matched or corresponded to > whatever Edward was > wearing - including mottos, badges, charges, livery colors, etc. Yes, but... ;) The difference is "clothing with heraldic elements and colors", vs "wearing the flag" as it were. Looking like you took your banner and made it into a dress (ala the lady in the arming scene in the Luttrell Psalter) possibly only happened in art. The other instances cited, of clothing containing mottos, badges, charges, and livery colors, produce a different look. There's precious little clothing surviving, and less with heraldic content, but it would seem to support this argument. If it helps, think of the USA's tradition of 4th of July clothing and the American flag. We'll see stars, stripes, red/white/blue, and even little flags decorating our clothing, but I haven't seen anyone at the parade dressed in what looks like a walking flag (or half a one). That's usually reserved for political cartoons where it's important to indicate the figure is representing the USA. All my thinking on this has been completely influenced by Robin Netherton, and supported by my own observations afterward while wondering if she's on to something there. ;) --Emmelyne de Marksbury Edited by Mark S. Harris heraldc-cloth-msg 3 of 3