banners-msg - 3/2/13

Flags and banners. Period and SCA construction.

NOTE: See also the files: flags-art, Herald-Embro-art, applique-msg, tapestries-msg, Sinister-Hand-art.

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This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: lspeck at indirect.COM (Linda Peck)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Scottish Flags
Date: 9 Aug 1993 05:19:23 -0400

MN> Just how old is the Andrew Cross as a flag of Scotland? One of our number
MN> insisted it was "forced on Scotland by the English". I'm under the
MN> impression that that is mistaken, but I couldn't for the life of me come
MN> up with a reference or a time for it's first being used in that way! Much
MN> less the circumstances.
 
MN> Can you (or anyone here) help?
 
You're right, it wasn't the St. Andrew Cross, it was the Cross of St.
Patrick which was "forced on to the Irish by the English" with the
adoption of the modern Union Flag of England in 1801.
 
The St. Andrew flag is refered to in Scottish writings as the old blue
blanket and that goes at back to at least the 1400's and possibly earlier. 
 
St. Andrew was crusified at Patras in Acaia on a cross shaped of diagonal
beams in 69 CE. 300 years later a monk (St. Rule) was shipwrecked with the
relics of St. Andrew off the coast of Scotland. (paraphrased from Flags of
the World) 
 
When Alexander I was King of Scotland St. Columba was the patron of
Scotland. In the  12th century St. Andrew became the patron saint due to
the fact that his cathedral became important. Thats when the azure a
saltire argent became the national flag.  (from Scotland from the earliest
times to 1603 by William Croft Dickinson, published by Thomas Neislon and
Sons Ltd, Edenburghro, 1961)
 
This information comes from Master Ioesph of Locksley. 
 
Rhianwen o enfys Disberod
Kingdom of Atenveldt
 

From: sandradodd at aol.com (SandraDodd)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period technique (Banners)
Date: 18 Aug 1995 13:18:09 -0400

<<I heard rumor once that applique, or cloth-on-cloth for the charges,
was a less-than-period technique even though it is so prevelant in the
SCA.  Would banners have ever been made out of velvets?
>>

About the first, I don't know.  Since I hang mine outside in the New
Mexico sun, I use appliqued Trigger cloth.  In the Albuquerque Museum
there's a huge banner--like a castle-wall-hanging thing, not an outdoor
flag thing--which is embroidered in metalic thread on velvetty kind of
cloth.  Sorry not to know more.  It's the arms of the Duke of
Alburquerque, a Portuguese personage, for whom Albuquerque was named) and
it's somewhat, but not extremely, out of period.

AElflaed


From: konstanza at britten.com (Konstanza von Brunnenburg)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period technique (Banners)
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 04:40:43 GMT
Organization: North Bay Network, Inc. news server

CHRISTINE_McGLOTHLIN at smtp.sagepub.COM (CHRISTINE_McGLOTHLIN) wrote:

>I heard rumor once that applique, or cloth-on-cloth for the charges,
>was a less-than-period technique even though it is so prevelant in the
>SCA.  Would banners have ever been made out of velvets?

Year-before-last I visited a large museum in Bern, Switzerland which
had one rather large room covered with banners used/taken in one of
their wars (I believe with the Burgundians, but don't quote me.  My
notes are still in Grass Valley, waiting to be moved here to my new
digs in San Rafael.)  By far the majority (18 out of 20, say) were
single pieces of hand-painted undyed canvas, with absolutely no
evidence of embroidery or applique of any kind.  However, I saw at
least two banners in this room which had *applique* work on them, with
the edges of the applique done in satin stitch, perpendicular to the
edge of the applique, which of course looked exactly like machine
applique!  However, even these appliqued banners had painted emblems
on them.

I think the idea was that you don't want to expend a lot of effort
making an appliqued/embroidered banner to have it get torn up in a
war.

This same museum housed some great tapestries and the Burgundian
King's arms richly embroidered on a small (~20" x 20") wall hanging,
all captured by the Bernese during their Burgundian wars.  It was
quite a haul.  :-)

Konstanza


From: rorice at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (rosalyn rice)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period technique (Banners)
Date: 21 Aug 1995 21:44:27 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington

	Painting, embroidery, and applique are all Period banner and tabard 
making techniques (cf. Neubecker Heraldry pp.24-25). If the "banner" is to 
hang like a gonfannon (most SCA banners are really gonfannons) then 
concievably you could get away with using velvet as the ground. If you 
are going to make a real banner or standard then you want something 
considerably lighter so it will catch the breeze. My gonfannon is made of 
painted trigger cloth, for purposes of cost and convenience, but heavy 
silk would be just as suitable and more Period.

	Lothar


From: Ginny Beatty <70003.7005 at compuserve.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period technique (Banners)
Date: 22 Aug 1995 12:48:00 GMT

CHRISTINE_McGLOTHLIN at smtp.sagepub.COM (CHRISTINE_McGLOTHLIN) wrote:
>As per the subject line, I am looking to make a banner of my
>registered arms.  This is not a question about the nature of
>registered heraldry in the SCA, but what to do *after* you've gone
>through the system and you want to display your device/arms,

For this Pennsic, I painted a banner and it held up pretty well to the 
elements.

I used gesso as the background on plain heavy cotton to get an even white 
background and stabilize the cloth and then used acrylic paint for the 
arms. Mine's really simple, so that I can draw it myself.

Gwyneth
*********
per fess rayonny argent and azure, a butterfly volant en arriere and 
another inverted counterchanged.


From: DMKEY at vnet.ibm.com (David Key)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period technique (Banners)
Date: 22 Aug 1995 16:03:14 GMT
Organization: IBM (UK) Ltd, Hursley

In <9507188087.AA808756104 at SMTP.SAGEPUB.COM>, CHRISTINE_McGLOTHLIN at smtp.sagepub.COM (CHRISTINE_McGLOTHLIN) writes:
>As per the subject line, I am looking to make a banner of my
>registered arms.  This is not a question about the nature of
>registered heraldry in the SCA, but what to do *after* you've gone
>through the system and you want to display your device/arms.
>
I believe that Cennini includes a detailed description on how to make
banners in his book (the name of which escapes me at the moment) 
which was written in the 1st half of the c.15th.

As far as I recall the technique involved painting, and gilding, the
banner cloth.

I have remember references to Bokeram (a light cotton cloth) and 
Cendal (a light silk) being used as banner cloths. 

David Key, 
Tel. (UK) 01962 818575,
MP 102, IBM Hursley Park, Hampshire, England


From: UDSD007 at DSIBM.OKLADOT.STATE.OK.US (Mike.Andrews)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period technique (Banners)
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 15:31
Organization: The University of Oklahoma (USA)

DMKEY at vnet.ibm.com (David Key) writes:

>I believe that Cennini includes a detailed description on how to make
>banners in his book (the name of which escapes me at the moment)
>which was written in the 1st half of the c.15th.
>
>As far as I recall the technique involved painting, and gilding, the
>banner cloth.
>
>I have remember references to Bokeram (a light cotton cloth) and
>Cendal (a light silk) being used as banner cloths.

Cennino d'Andrea Cennini: _The Craftsman's Handbook_; Dover Books,
New York City; ISBN 0-486-20054-X; $3.95US

P. 107, "How to lay gold and silver on woolen cloth", is a set of
instructions on putting arms (in gold or silver) on woolen cloth.

Pp. 103-108 deal with painting and gilding cloth in general.
--
udsd007 at dsibm.okladot.state.ok.us
Michael Fenwick of Fotheringhay, O.L. (Mike Andrews)  Namron, Ansteorra


To: ansteorra at eden.com
From: gunnora at bga.com (Gunnora Hallakarva)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 08:31:09 -0500
Subject: Banner Information and Heraldic Information

I found this interesting post on the Historical Costuming moderated
newslist, ande thought it would be of interest to many, not just craftsmen
but also heralds.

=====================================
Date:    Mon, 30 Sep 1996 09:42:07 MDT
From:    Lyssa/Maggie Griggs <mgriggs at SHEPARDS.COM>
Subject: Re: Banners

"Chandler, Sally A." <S.A.Chandler%SHU.AC.UK at internet.shepards. Wrote:
| This is not strictly a costume request - not at all a costume request I
| suppose, but I thought that you good people out there on the h-costume list
| might be able to help.  I've been asked to make some 'authentic' banners to
| fly over a medieval castle.  They'll be about 4 foot square and need to
| stand up to the vagaries of the weather. Any suggestions as to what fabric
| to use, the method of construction and the type of paint to use?  
|
| Sally Ann Chandler
| s.a.chandler at shu.ac.uk

I've had excellent results using Jones Tones paints.  They are very durable,
washable (machine, I've never tried dry cleaning) and have excellent memory
without cracking or peeling.  One of the company reps who demonstrated the
paint at a local store actually painted a pair of lycra stockings, let the
paint dry and then stretched them.  The paint didn't crack or peal and the
stockings returned to their original shape.  The colors are very good for
achieving the proper tones of heraldic colors.  Just be careful to read the
labels.  I still have a bottle of glitter gold transparent that I mistook for
the gold opaque.  I keep it as a reminder.  :)

There's lots of banner and heraldic books out there and I think I saw a
response with some excellent references.  Some additional references are
"Fox-Davies, Complete Guide to Heraldry," "Papworth, Ordinary of British
Armorials," and "Woodcock and Robinson, The Oxford Guide to Heraldry."  All
should be available from your local library or through ILL.  They are also
available from Heraldry Today, Parliment Piece, Ramsbury
Nr. Marlborough, Wiltshire SN8 2QH, England.  They will give you an idea of
many arms and charges that were used in history and some that are still
currently used as well as style differences between midieval and modern arms.

The Heraldry Society of Scotland has issued a color facsimile of the Scots
Roll, a 15th c. Roll of Arms, edited by Colin Campbell.  People wishing to
order it from the Heraldry Society should obtain a money order for 6.50 pounds
sterling made to the Heraldry Society of Scotland, and send it to Dr. Patrick
Barden, Birkfield, Rumbling Bridge, Kinross KY13 7PT Great Britain.

You'll want to be careful creating banners in countries which maintain
heraldic colleges, such as England.  I believe they strictly regulate the
applications to which heraldic emblems can be used, who can display them and
other pertinent information.  Check with the nearest heraldic college for
information before you start.

If you have web access, you can get more information at the British Heraldic
Archive located at:  http://www.kwtelecom.com/heraldry/

The College of Arms in London, the regulator for England, Wales, etc., is
available at:  http://www.kwtelecom.com/heraldry/collarms/index.html  or
directly at

        "The College of Arms, Queen Victoria Street, London EC4
        is open between 10.00 a.m. and 4.00 p.m. Monday to Friday
        throughout the year except on public holidays, State and
        special occasions. The Officer in Waiting is available
        for enquiries between these hours. Appointments in writing
        will save delays. For further details telephone (0171)
        248 2762 or fax (0171) 248 6448 from within the United
        Kingdom or telephone +44 171 248 2762 or fax +44 171 248
        6448 from elsewhere."

Lyssa
mgriggs at shepards.com or Lyssa at kktv.com
http://www.usa.net/~norseman/costume.html

Gunnora Hallakarva
Herskerinde


To: ansteorra at eden.com
From: gunnora at bga.com (Gunnora Hallakarva)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 10:50:52 -0500
Subject: More on Making Banners

I've found more interesting information on making banners on the Historical
Costuming moderated newsgroup.  This note comes from Master Giles, once of
Bonwicke but now living in (I think) Caid.

======================================
Date:    Tue, 1 Oct 1996 10:29:01 -0400
From:    Gileshill at AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Banners

Sally asked:
>  I've been asked to make some 'authentic' banners to
>  fly over a medieval castle.  They'll be about 4 foot square and need to
>  stand up to the vagaries of the weather. Any suggestions as to what fabric
>  to use, the method of construction and the type of paint to use?

A number of my friends in Southern California (led by Esther Benedict and
Bruce Miller) have made heraldic banners using silk cloth.  The pattern is
lightly drawn in pencil, traced with resist, and then the  outlined shapes
are colored with silk paint. The edges are finished using french hems, and
grommets or buttonholes can be set into the edge for ties or ropes.   I'm not
sure how these will stand up to the 'liquid sunshine' with which the UK is so
richly blessed, but they work well here in the desert.

You might also consider a technique I've heard called 'reverse applique':
 Choose a base cloth the color of the field.  (If your field is divided, make
your ground cloth match it...)  Using a very narrow satin stitch, applique
the charges to the base cloth.  Turn the banner over, and using the satin
stitch as a guideline, CAREFULLY cutting inside the outlines, cut away the
ground cloth that is behind the charges.

You now have a banner that looks the same on both sides.  Retrace the satin
stitch lines, using a wider stitch so that the raw edges (on both sides of
the banner) are caught beneath it.  (You might want to FrayChek the edges
first for extra strength.)

Given the vagaries of English weather, you might consider the use of a
synthetic like polyester oxford cloth, rather than a more period -and more
delicate- fiber.

Paul Giles
Orange County
============================================
Gunnora Hallakarva
Herskerinde


To: ansteorra at eden.com
From: "Paul T. Mitchell" <pmitchel at flash.net>
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 13:14:19 -0700
Subject: Re: Banners

Michael Gunter (better known as Sir Gunthar) wrote:
> I wish to make proper flags or banners for Lyonness and I would like
> some information on what registration I may need to do and what would go on a
> banner.  I'm thinking of both a long pennant and the square banner on the "L"
> frame.

I think I can help with this.

The square banner on the "L" frame should best display your arms, and it should only be displayed in your immediate presence.  (Got a squire to follow you around with this? Shades of St. Hrothgar!)

A long penant can display your arms, or...

This:  Put the Ansteorran badge (or, a mullet of 5 greater and five lesser points within a bordure sable) in a rectangular space nearest the flagpole; this is called the "hoist".  You could also place your arms in the hoist, or the national flag -- not the arms -- of your persona's country (such as "argent, a cross throughout gules" for England).  In the rest of the pennant, the "fly", put badges (personal badges, and the badges of branches, awards, orders, etc. that you're entitled to), and your motto (except in the hoist, your arms won't be on such a pennant).  Or make smaller ones with one badge each on them.

Always happy to encourage heraldic display!

- Galen of Bristol
Nautilus Pursuivant


From: hughn at ssd.fsi.com (Hugh Niewoehner)
To: ansteorra at eden.com
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 96 07:37:58 CDT
Subject: RE: Spear pennants

Pennants look great on fighting spears but remember the down side...they
make great handles.   Be prepared to let go of your spear if it is snatched,
don't fight it.  I've been in battles where a man using a spear with a
pennant was pulled through the backs of his defending shields because he
wouldn't let go of his spear when he should have realized the guy grabbing
the other end had both a better grip and better footing.  And there are more
than a few individuals who have made spear stealing something of an art
form.  Grap the pennant to hold it still long enough to get the other hand
and possibly a few more people a good grip on the shaft.  Then...pull hard
and run with it.  

To last any length of time in that kind of environment the pennant should
have very tough ties and put an extra heavy piece of fabric along the edges
and where the ties attach to prevent it from self-destructing when yanked.   

Like I first said, they look great but be prepared to let go.  If the
opponents start using it you might even be able to use your own pennant to
get your spear back.   :-)

BTW, for an additional neat touch.  Get electrical tape in your colors.
Spiral wrap the shaft with the alternating colors.  This is a great visual
effect and makes it easier for people watching you from the sidelines to
locate you.

Damon


From: Mike Baker <mbaker at rapp.com>
To: ansteorra
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 11:12:00 -0500
Subject: RE: Spear pennants

> To last any length of time in that kind of environment the pennant should
> have very tough ties and put an extra heavy piece of fabric along the edges
> and where the ties attach to prevent it from self-destructing when yanked. 

In order to avoid (or confuse) the "spear-stealers", has anyone seriously 
considered tear-away pennons instead of reinforcing them more heavily?

Would probably make for a one-time surprise, but I suspect that it could be 
a pretty funny sight when that "handle" comes off in the hand of the 
attempted snatcher (and an off-balance would-be stealer *might* be more open 
to that return thrust!)

> BTW, for an additional neat touch.  Get electrical tape in your colors.
> Spiral wrap the shaft with the alternating colors.  This is a great visual
> effect and makes it easier for people watching you from the sidelines to
> locate you.

Or, if you want to identify with a particular war-band (such as the 
Kingdom's, when at war), use a previously-agreed pattern of wrappings. 
Checky and striped versions can also be very distinctive. (Length-wise AND 
parallel bandings have both been done; just avoid using red for stripes 
along the shaft unless following a striking surface...)

Note, too, that colored duct tape is available in all of the standard 
heraldic colors plus some (I am fond of the idea of covering spear shafts 
and axe hafts in brown or tan, for aesthetics.)

Amr ibn Majid al-Bakri al-Amra
     currently residing in Barony of the Steppes, Kingdom of Ansteorra
Mike C. Baker                      mbaker at rapp.com


From: dickeney at access5.digex.net (Dick Eney)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Banner making
Date: 23 Jul 1997 22:55:45 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA

Don Hicks  <don-andrea-hicks at postoffice.worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>I just read the Rialto file on banners, but it failed to mention the
>size of banners.  What is the max size?  Does the device appear on the
>banner or the badge?
>Any info appreciated.
>Maridonna Benevenuti, Wiesenfeuer, Ansteorra

If I recall correctly, there is no official maximum size for a banner. 
However, there are logistical effects - you want something that will fit
on a pole that you can carry in your car, that won't take up an entire
wall of the feast hall (leading to hurt feelings on the part of others who
want to hang their banners too), etc.  Many banners are about 36 inches
square, with variations depending on whether you prefer rectangles, fancy
bottom edges, etc.  This is a good large personal banner but not a limit
by any means. 

The device should appear on the banner.  The basic cloth of the banner is
the field of the device - don't make the mistake of putting a neat little
shield shape on a background and then putting your device on the shield.
If you want a shield-shaped banner, ok that's your choice but I don't
think that shape was much used in period (a square or rectangle with a
pointy base isn't quite the same, it's not curved like a heater shield).

A badge is technically not the same as your device, and it is used as a
marker on objects that you own (or can be worn by members of a household).
Many people mark their possessions with their registered device anyway,
but think a little about it - should the honorable emblem of your nobility
really be on the bottom of the wastebasket? (e.g.)

Materials are your choice, as are techniques.  I've seen some lovely
embroidered banners and some marvelous painted ones, as well as the
traditional appliqued cloth ones.

=Tamar the Gypsy (sharing account dickeney at access.digex.net)


From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Banner making
Date: 24 Jul 1997 10:41:23 -0400
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC

Greetings from Arval! Tamar the Gypsy wrote:

> If I recall correctly, there is no official maximum size for a banner. 

Some kingdoms have laws specifying such things, but I don't know the
details. 

> The device should appear on the banner. 

That's a good general answer, but there are examples of banners of one type
or another bearing badges.

>  The basic cloth of the banner is the field of the device - don't make
> the mistake of putting a neat little shield shape on a background and
> then putting your device on the shield. 

Another good general answer, but I have seen gonfannons exactly like that.  

> If you want a shield-shaped banner, ok that's your choice but I don't
> think that shape was much used in period...

That is excellent advice.  Square, rectangular, or an elongated triangle
are the choices most typical of medieval banners.

> A badge is technically not the same as your device, and it is used as a
> marker on objects that you own (or can be worn by members of a household).
> Many people mark their possessions with their registered device anyway,
> but think a little about it - should the honorable emblem of your nobility
> really be on the bottom of the wastebasket?

This is a common Society theory, but it doesn't hold up very well to
research.  In fact, badges were frequently used for personal
identification, and arms were frequently used to mark possessions.  We
would do well to drop this generalization.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord                                         mittle at panix.com


From: jotl at owens.ridgecrest.ca.us (James of the Lake)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Info on banners needed
Date: 18 Apr 1998 21:33:46 GMT
Organization: Barony of Naevehjem

gyelle at aol.com (Gyelle) wrote:

> I want to make a standard and some pennants.  Does anyone have suggestions for
> the best paints or dyes to use?

The following is from a discussion on the topic on SCAHRLDS a while back.

James
jotl at ridgecrest.ca.us
--------
Painting Banners

Modar had asked:

Can you tell what process you use to make yours? Do you paint them? If so,
what type/brand of paints do you use? What type of cloth? Etc. 

And Madawc replied:

Hail Modar

I've already seen your description, and was going to send this along anyway- 

Our technique-I believe first used by Baron Bruce--begins very like yours
in terms of getting the line drawing onto the cloth. Bruce, of course,
just draws the device , lightly with pencil, on the cloth. Other folk have
photo-enlarged ( xerox)the drawing and place it just beneath the cloth and
trace over it with resist. (see below for resist info) At any rate, any
method to get the design on the cloth is great. 

Part of the technique, especially the use and brand of resist was
delimited by James of the Lake, as follows:

>>We stretch sheet or dollar-a-yard Wallmart fabric (mainly cotton or a high 
cotton-containing blend as you've stated) on a wooden frame and staple the
fabric to the wood. Then we draw the design with washable magic markers
(be sure to use a color that is lighter than the color which will be
painted in that area since if painted over, the magic marker line will not
wash out). Now take the resist (DekaSilk Resist) and squeeze this material
out on the lines making sure it soaks through the fabric to the other
side. Let dry. Then paint the area in the color desired with textile paint
(Versatex, Siphon Art, PO Box 710, San Rafael, CA 94915-0710). Paint to
within a 1/4-inch of the dividing line at first until you find how the
paint spreads (if the paint doesn't wick much, you can paint closer to the
line initially), paint more closely to the line by degrees until the area
is covered, then let dry. Take the fabric off the frame and iron it to set
the paint before washing it to remove the construction lines. Finally, hem
and/or attach loops, tassles, etc.

James
(who stays well away from paint!)<<

If it is desireable that lines of division and or detailing lines of the
charge remain visible, the silk resist comes both in clear and black. The
black does not wash out, the clear leaves a white line _if the painting
near the line is carefully done_.

FABRIC-
-China silk is a great fabric--takes the resist and dyes exceptionally
well, flys beautifully- but is much more costly than the cottons. The
resist, however, works best on silk. A properly applied line of resist
impregnates the cloth and stops the paint from crossing. (there is a silk
merchant on line who will sell it and other silks at low prices -- his
current for china silk is  at  4.00 /yard, but you hsve to buy fairly large
quantities. I had the info but lost it-I can get it from wife's mail--and
will forward it under the screeen name 'Hyddyr")
Size us usually just under 36"x 36" , although I made a 4' square banner
of my and my wife's arms impaled that we fly on the roof of our
pavilion--easy to see accross the field.

DESIGN TRANSFER
Any method is great. If you haven't the resources for making a
transparency, a Xerox enlargement can be placed under the fabric and
traced over-an advantage of the china silk is that this can be seen
through the fabric 

FRAMING
As James mentioned, we frame the fabric first. There are three major
advantages to framing. The first is that you avoid the hassles of plastic
on the work surface, as the frame lifts the cloth above the work surface,
hence none goes through, the second is that the dye or paint then won't
puddle on the painting surface and bleed across the resist lines on the
underside of the fabric. (Get the resist-it really works as you can paint
right up to the resist line with no bleed through. and Third, the fabric
is _lightly_ stretched, so it doesn't shrink or warp while being painted,
and has a good flat working surface that doesn't move while bein painted 

I make the frames out of scrap pine of 3/4" x 1-1/2" x 36" pieces of wood
butt joined with the 3/4" face up. Staple the fabric keeping it flat, but
do not stretch too tight or stretch across the bias. Now the fabric is
raised 1-1/2" above any work surface.

PAINTING
Deka also makes a line of silk dyes intended to be painted on fabric.
These come in a range of good, bright, saturated colors. Good Blue! good
Green! good Purple! They provide rich colors without having to use mass
quantity of color medium, they work beautifully with the resist, they are
washable, and the fabric stays soft, so the banner flys nicely in the
breeze. The colors lose a touch of brilliance when used on cotton, but
they work with some synthetics. My pavillion banner is on 100% dacron, and
the colors are true, fast, and brilliant. Application is best when applied
with a sponge brush.
Really--try the fabric dyes--they aare wonderful. 

FINISH
Hem-add ties or pole loops and Display!

to one and all interested in banner making, Greetings

Addenda- Deka Silk Dyes

The dyes come in 2 oz jars, and is called "flowable Silk Technique Paint"
The colors we have used and like as heraldic are:

#705 Poppy Red
#713 Shamrock
#708 Deep Lilac ( really nice purple)
#709 Skyline Blue
don' have the number for black

Madawc

available from dharma trading co., san rafael, ca.  call 800.542.5227 for
their free 120 pg catalog.
The dyes we use are   Deka Silk dyes,  the mfr is Decart Inc., Morrisville, VT
o5661

#705 Poppy red
708  deep lilac
713  shamrock
709  skyline blue

I haven't done anything requiring black, so I haven't the number/name.

Resist "Deka-silk resist" comes in clear (730) black (733) and silver (732)

Outline the design in one of the resists--it is applied in such manner as to
put it into the weave of the silk. Paint on the dyes--foam brushes work quite
well. the resist prevents the dye from bleeding out of the design.  Wash it,
iron it, it is quite permanent.

It will work on synthetics, I did a banner of an acrylic fiber that is quite
nice, and on cotton, though not as well.

madawc


Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 11:17:49 EDT
From: <CKONOW at aol.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: question about needlework

Painted silk banners work out really well and glow really nicely in the light.
A basic silk painting kit, as well as the requisite yardage is available from
Rupert, Gibbon, and Spider in Healdsberg, Ca.  The 800 operator has the phone
number.  

Happy hunting, 
  Thea in Caid


Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 15:07:22 EDT
From: froggestow at juno.com (Roberta R Comstock)
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: question about needlework

<CKONOW at aol.com> writes:
>Painted silk banners work out really well and glow really nicely in
>the light.

Silk is great for indoor use, but keep in mind that silk is destroyed by
prolonged exposure to sunlight.  I don't recommend it for outdoor
banners.

Hertha


Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 14:53:32 -0500 (CDT)
From: "J. Patrick Hughes" <jphughes at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
To: sca-arts at listproc.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: question about needlework

I know that from the 14th through the 16th painted silk banners were the
most common with armies. I have used silk banners (both flag and standard)
out of silk for years outdoors and they do not show sun damage. I am
amazed that no one has addressed the issue that the standard SCA "banner"
is actually a gonfallon which was used mainly for religius ceremonies  in
period.

Charles O'Connor
jphughes at raven.cc.ukans.edu


Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 12:25:47 EDT
From: <CKONOW at aol.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: question about needlework

Greetings all...the silk banners we've painted have held up pretty well
despite outdoor use.  Be sure to use a sturdy silk...the type used is Habotai
and get the highest "mummie".  Mummie is a measurement of the weight of the
silk...it rhymes with "tummy".  Granted the banners are just out for the day.
I haven't tried having one out through a long event such as a war.

Thea in Caid


Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 09:56:45 -0500
From: mary boulet <boulet.roger at mcleod.net>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: silk banners

CKONOW at aol.com wrote:
> Greetings all...the silk banners we've painted have held up pretty well
> despite outdoor use.  Be sure to use a sturdy silk...the type used is Habotai
> and get the highest "mummie".  Mummie is a measurement of the weight of the
> silk...it rhymes with "tummy".  Granted the banners are just out for the day.
> I haven't tried having one out through a long event such as a war.
>
> Thea in Caid

May I share my own experience with silk banners with this list? Our
first silk banner was a yellow china silk, which we mounted on a high
standard at Pennsic. The yellow was the background color, the charges
were painted with textile paints. It was in shreds by the end of the
War. The edge of the painted areas was too stiff for the silk, and 8
days of constant exposure to the elements caused the silk to tear along
the painted edges. So we learned not to paint on china silk.
Our next experience was with pennons on the top of our Pavillion. Our
good friend, David Orcherd, used a gutta resist to draw in the edges of
the charge and then used silk specific dyes to paint them. Those pennons
were also of a lightweight silk, and we kept them on the finial poles
for five years, at the end of which the edges were shredded and one
could easily poke a finger right through the fabric. I would guess that
they saw a total of 90 days and nights of sun, wind, and rain in that
time. You might conclude that I won't be replacing them with silk, but
that's just what I intend to do. Nothing else moves like silk (with the
exception of rayon), takes color, and dries as quickly after a rain.
I've seen cotton banners bending their poles nearly to the ground from
the weight of the water they absorbed when left out in the rain. And how
many of us want to have to remove our heraldry at an outdoor event just
because the weather is a little "damp"?
However, my own personal banner, with its satin and cloth of silver I do
not hang out of doors. Even just with indoor exposure, the dye in the
green portion of the banner has done a very period thing, and gone
fugitive, gradually becoming brownish in tone. As a former industrial
screen printer some years ago, I applied a UV blocking 'ink' to many a
sign that would be subjected to continual outdoor exposure. I don't know
if these 'inks' are available outside the industry. If so, I'd be
interested in trying them out. Were I to make one glorious silk banner,
I would want to display it often, and I would not want to have to do it
more than once! 

Myra.


Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 10:11:27 -0700
From: "Gina L. Hill" <hekav at gte.net>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: silk banners

Greetings from Eleanor!

I love this discussion of silk and banners!  Much as I love silk...who
doesn't, I have followed an option suggested to me by a peer.  I
noticed his beautiful painted banners and pennants while camping next
to his wonderful period display, at an event this last  summer.

From a distance of less than two feet, I really thought they were
silk, but in fact turned out to be made of a simulated silk, called
"Silkessence", which I have been able to find locally at JoAnn
Fabrics...but I'm sure it is widely available. (No plug intended for
the fabric store or the fabric mfr!  I just like the stuff!)

It's a polyester fabric, but with about the right weight, sheen, and
look of silk for a tiny fraction of the cost...about $3 to $4 per
yard.  I got lucky, and got mine for $2 per yard, on sale.  It comes
in all the heraldic colors and they are intense and every bit as
gorgeous as they would be on silk!  The only criticism I have of it,
if any, is that it does have a slightly crinkled surface finish...but
that can be removed fairly easily with a steam iron.  Naturally it is
washable...although, I'd be cautious about cleaning it after it is
painted.

He paints his with Ceramcoat (sp?) acrylics mixed with the fabric
medium from the same company, and applies them not too thickly, lest
they crack.  He told me his banners had been in use for 5 years and
they showed absolutely no sign of wear!

I experimented with one small shield shaped banner of my device,
approx. 13" x 15", pinned to a cork board with saran wrap between the
fabric and the cork.  The acrylics are very easy to apply, and if you
are lucky enough to have an argent or white field, you have the bonus
of being able to see your design right through the fabric, and not
having to transfer it!  :-)  (No such luck here, alas!)

As this worked well for me, I'm going to use the same technique on a
full scale banner, 36" X 36".  The only problem I have found with
painting on this fabric is that it does seep through to the reverse
side, which doesn't look so very good.  The two ways I have come up
with to deal with this are either a) to paint the reverse to make it
look better, or b) to make two banners and stitch them together in one
double-sided banner.

It is possible that I used too much paint...perhaps a second test is
needed, which I will try with the Kingdom badge.

I also made 8 large swallow-tail pennants of it, 6' long X 2' wide in
my colors, and they behave goregously in the slightest breeze.  They
also dry very quickly, and are not heavy when wet.  Unfortunately, I
don't have the banner poles, and portable holes yet...but when I do!
Wow!  I know this is not a "period handling" of the flags, but it
works for me, and they should easily pass our "10 foot rule", and give
a good display too!

Eleanor of Leycestershyre


Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 09:30:24 EST
From: <Seton1355 at aol.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Cool Word: gonfalon

This came across my desk from *The Learning Kingdom*
Phillipa
<< --------------------------------------------------------------------
   The Learning Kingdom's Cool Word of the Day for February 24, 2000
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
 
                       gonfalon [n. GON-fuh-lon]
 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------

 A gonfalon is a flag, but only if it is suspended from a horizontal
 bar rather than a vertical mast.  Most gonfalons are seen at the
 heads of religious or military processions.  Sometimes a gonfalon's
 cross-shaped support is held by a person called a gonfalonier [n.
 GON-fuh-luh-NYIR].
 
 The first gonfalons were displayed in medieval Italy as part of
 religious observances.  The Italian word was gonfalone, from the
 Germanic compound gund-fanon (battle flag).  The first part of that
 came from gundjo (war, battle), which also was the source of English
 gun by way of Old Norse gunnr (war).
 
 Behind all of these words was the ancient root gwhen (to kill;
 strike).  The same root also led to other words related to war,
 destruction, or threat.  These include bane, German Bahn (road;
 originally, a road forcefully hacked through the woods), defend,
 fence, and offend.
  >>


Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 10:18:45 +1100
From: "Michael Niemann" <mniemann at labyrinth.net.au>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Banner shapes
To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"
	<lochac at lochac.sca.org>

On Fri, November 12, 2010 09:57, Simon Miller wrote:
<<< What is the relevance of the different shapes banners come in? Is it
simple aesthetics or do they have proscribed shapes and sizes? >>>

To quote from Cunnan (http://cunnan.sca.org.au/wiki/Flag):

There are four main types of flag in the Western European medieval period.

The pennon is what ordinary individuals might have, either attached to a
lance (and then called pennoncelles), or to a small vertical pole. These
can be like little right-angled triangles (long side vertical) -- a revon
-- or rectangular (short side vertical), in which case they were generally
swallow-tailed, that is with the outer edge having its centre cut away to
leave two tails, or in the shape of an outward pointing isoceles triangle,
longer/broader than high.

The banner is square or rectangular (longer side vertical), and can be
used to bear someone's device. It also attaches to a vertical pole. It may
or may not have its outer edge cut, rectangularly, to leave tails.

A standard is the long thin flag that leads armies etc., standing out from
a pole. It can also either have a rounded outer end, or one with two
rounded bumps. Or it may have swallow-tails, in which case it gets called
a guidon

Finally a tall flag (higher than broad) hung by its top is a gonfalon.


Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 10:24:31 +1100
From: "Cian Gillebhrath" <mniemann at labyrinth.net.au>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Banner shapes
To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"
	<lochac at lochac.sca.org>

In addition to the Cunnan summary, in the SCA, the term 'banner' is
commonly used to refer to a flag that is suspended horizontally from a
pole (or the wall). This is actually a gonfalon.

Cian.


To: "Kingdom of Gleann Abhann Yahoo Group" <gleannabhann at yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: Banners
Posted by: "Judith Wilkinson" judith_of_troll_fen at yahoo.com judith_of_troll_fen
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:25 pm ((PDT))

--- On Mon, 3/28/11, froggie <froggie_910 at yahoo.com> wrote:
<<< I have a question regarding banners
(pennants, like fly on a pole beside a pavilion). 

If you make one with your personal device on it, can you
put the kingdom, shire, households, guilds etc that you
belong to on it as well? (With their permission of course).
Just curious what "can" be used to decorate one. 

Michelle Peterson
froggie >>>

Working from the pole out to the tail...the populace badge (not the kingdom device...no laurel wreath nor crown...only Royalty displays that device) is placed first, next to the hoist (the pole.)  Then your device, then, yes, the badges of other affiliations can be added afterwards

Judith


From: nancee@MERMAID.HOMEIP.NET
Subject: 	Re: [CALONTIR] Color Variations within Silk Banners
Date: 	September 15, 2011 1:08:07 PM CDT
To: CALONTIR@listserv.unl.edu

On 9/15/2011 8:14 AM, ann wingert wrote:
<<< If one is looking to have a variegated pattern within a silk banner is there anyway to achieve that? Darker green resist in thicker lines closer together maybe seperating the lighter green? >>>

Anne,

I took a class on this at Pennsic. The teacher explained that once you lay down a base color, you can use the dye like paint. So, paint the background and let it dry. Then, use the dye like paint to shade or add detail. You can use the same color, and it will come out darker, or a different color. If you use a different color, it will mix with the background color. Either way, the second application will not spread the way the first one does because the fibers are already saturated.

I have not yet tried this--this is just what the instructor told us. So test on a sample first.

Magda


From: lonemuse2@YAHOO.COM
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Silk Banners
Date: September 16, 2011 12:29:18 AM CDT
To: CALONTIR@listserv.unl.edu

<<< Years ago when I started in the SCA I used to do a lot of silk painting. I
was told this type of painting with resist (colored and uncolored) were not
a documentable craft. So I made some silk banners with our Arms and I flew
them at Lilies, but I was always a bit nonchalant about them as I was always
told these were not period. 
Have anyone either found documentation for the silk banners we now see
flying all over or everyone just accepted they are not a period style but
cool anyway?

Amanda. >>>

The little I've looked into the matter, what I've found was that using a resist for silk painting is documentable to period, but mainly in the far east. (China and Japan, with rice flour mixed with water as the resist on silk.)
Batik (using wax as a resist to form patterns when dyeing cloth) is about 2000 years old, once more used in the far east... but that's dyeing, not painting.
I can document period recipes from about 1300 or so for "colored waters" used to "paint" cloth for wall-hangings in Europe, but not the use of a "resist" as we think of it as of yet.  That is also assuming that the term "paint" in those manuscripts is being used in the same way that it is used today, an that the term was accurately translated from Latin.

Fionnuala
 

From: lonemuse2@YAHOO.COM
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Silk Banners
Date: September 16, 2011 4:16:06 AM CDT
To: CALONTIR@listserv.unl.edu

This is just my own opinion on the matter... but it IS a period technique, just not one that we have evidence for (to my knowledge) in Western Europe.
I would say it falls more under the heading of "Plausibly Period".  Silk fabric they had, the colors and the knowledge of how to apply them on fabric they had, and people that were on the Silk Road trade routes were doing similar things, but whether or not they ever put them together... well, I haven't found the proof or extant examples.  And I am not the end-all-be-all of Knowledge on this particular subject because I haven't done more that just skimmed the web to find examples.  I just happen to still be up at 4 am and answered the question first.
I suppose it would be an awful lot like creating an Anglo-Saxon style feast.  You know the ingredients they had access to, you know the cooking techniques, you have some recipes from before that time and after that time, but no Anglo-Saxon cookbooks from 400 A.D. to grab a hold of and look in to see if they actually did make the dish it would have been possible to create using those ingredients and technology.  So your feast would be "plausibly period".
Of course, to argue the other side, you could also almost argue internal combustion engines were plausibly period using the same logic, if one were so inclined.
:-)
And since I am now debating with myself, I am going to bed.  LOL

Fionnuala


From: dakea@KC.RR.COM
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Silk Banners
Date: September 16, 2011 5:54:45 PM CDT
To: CALONTIR@listserv.unl.edu

<<< If you please, where's a good "How To" site for making banners?  
- Gwydion >>>

I am not sure if there is or not a “how to” site, but the technique is so simple it is just a matter of explaining and getting the right tools.

First you design the elements of the banner on paper, then transfer to the china silk. Easily accomplished by taping the paper to a table, then taping the silk on top of it and transferring the design with a soft lead pencil.

Then you stretch the silk to a frame. Frames can be made out of soft wood, of any size you want. The stretching can be accomplished by using these 3 prong tacks they use for silk painting. You just have to keep the silk stretched tight while you are applying the resist and the silk dyes (paints).

If you divide your banner into sections like many have done your frame does not have to be so big, as you can paint the banner in sections.

After that you apply the guta or resist. Resist comes in colors, which do not wash out and is permanent, or it comes in transparent which washes out. Resist generally comes in a bottle with a point (like hair color dye) and you either buy a metal nib, which can vary in gage, giving you really fine or thicker lines.

Once the resist has dried then you apply the colors which can be done with brushes, sponges or something which will hold the liquid dye. Once you are done with the section you dry the dye with a hair dryer, and continue on to the next section.

When you finish your banner you follow the instructions on the dye you used to fix it so it does not fade too much… it will fade some but not as much as if you didn’t use any method to fix the color.

There are many different techniques to achieve different effects on china painting. You can apply the color and sprinkle it with coarse salt and it will suck some of the color and make spots. You can apply alcohol which will make the color be intense and give it dark and light spots. You can apply the paint, then immediately chase it with a brush with clean water, and this will make the dye run to the edge by the resist, making a graded shading.

There is also a technique where you do not need resist, but it does not give you that “floating in air banner” look, as the silk has to be saturated in a solution of colorless resist diluted in water, then let dry and paint as if you were doing an impressionistic watercolor. It does not serve you well when doing heraldic banners though.

This is the skinny of it. I never taught people how to because I am sure if I had done it someone would come by and say: “Do you know this is not a period technique?”

Amanda.

<the end>
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