vinegar-msg – 2/4/15

Vinegar in period. Making vinegar.

NOTE: See also these files: Vinegar-art, Vinegar-NJFCC-art, verjuice-msg, yeasts-msg, wine-msg, beer-msg, pickled-foods-msg, salads-msg.

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From: rhayes at powerup.com.au (Robin Hayes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Vinegar - was Yeasts was: 14th Century Bread
Date: 3 Mar 1997 03:34:29 GMT

Father Gregory of apospirit at sprintmail.com says...
>MamaMoose1 wrote:
>> I've never heard of a yeast (wild or tame) that produced vinegar. That's
>> usually produced by another organism contaminating the product.
>> 
>>                   - A'isha al-Aneed
>
>I came in at the end of this thread so I risk looking like a bigger 
>idiot than I am normally.  It is my understanding that vinegar is a by 
>product from the oxidation of alcohol.  I will try to research this 
>further.  Since yeast decoposes suagr in to alcohol and carbon dioxide, 
>in an indirect way; you could claim that yeast is responsible. 

Previous discussion in this thread has covered the fermentation process of 
sugars to alcohol.

generalised equation for fermentation.
C6H12O6 + yeast -> 2 C2H5-OH + Co2
sugar   to    alcohol and carbon dioxide

The yeast acts to obtain energy for its own growth by the reaction, the 
alcohol being a waste product as far as the organism is concerned. Hence 
the joke that a fermented product is "dead bugs in bug poo juice"... :-)

If you obtain a good quality "organic" style apple cider vinegar (or any 
other vinegar such as malt or wine) you often get the "mother of vinegar" 
for the vinegar in the product. Indeed this is considered a bonus, as it 
proves the  vinegar to still be "alive".

Wine fanciers often have a container covered with a clean cloth into which 
they pour the dregs of even their quality wines, which then ferment into 
great vinegar.

I have misplaced some of my reference books at the moment, but vinegar 
used to be a more common product for sale in England during period than 
wine, in types of style of vinegar offered vs wine.

Vinegar merchants were more plrntiful than wine merchants.

Wine kept in casks, tends to go to vinegar fairly quickly. Wine imported 
from Europe to england was sloshed around in the barrels, promoting the 
mixing of air, which speeds the vinegar generation process.

Basically
CH2CHOH + O2 + Bacteria -> CH3CO-OH + H2O
alcohol + oxygen + Bacteria -> Acetic acid + water

The bacterium is an "acetobacter", and acts to obtain energy for its own 
growth by the reaction, thus "dead bugs in sour bug poo juice" I 
suppose... :-)

Prior to 1800, the best known commercial vinegar producing method was 
called the Orleans method, which took 3-4 months to process a barrel of 
about 50 galls, but this was in still conditions on land. As the process 
normally takes place only at the air/liquid surface (because of need to 
get sufficient air into the liquid), thrashing the contents of the cask 
around while bringing it over from France, or further by ship, speeds up 
the process enormously. Bouncing it around on the back of a cart or pack 
animals would help too. Later out of period processes also sped things up 
by enabling more air to be put into the liquid easily.

Indeed the problem with wine in period was to stop it going off (note 
Biblical references to new wine/old wine), which was not easily 
accomplished without bottling, or special sealed storage jars, and the 
sealant was a problem before cork was used late in period. Keeping it in 
barrels is risky, especially since the science (or is that art:-) of the 
time didn't understand things the way we do now.

Robin
-- 
rhayes at powerup.com.au  http://www.powerup.com.au/~rhayes/


From: Tom Brady <tabrady at mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 08:34:50 -0400
Subject: Re: SC - Vinegar

At 04:33 PM 4/15/97 +1000, Fiona Porteous asked:
>Is balsamic vinegar a. period and b. appropriate to any use here?  (Is that
>champagne vinegar?)

I just took a quick cruise around the web to see what I could find. At the
web site of Alessi, one of the larger commercial balsamic vinegar
producers, they say (at http://www.vigo.com/BALSAMIC.htm):

"Balsamic vinegar has been made for hundreds of years. It originated in the
Modena region of Italy, and until recently only those regions were
privileged to experience its delights. It is recorded that in 1046 A.D.,
Boniface, marquis of Bologna, made a gift of Balsamic Vinegar to Henry III,
the Holy Roman Emperor. Like in wine making, each family had their own
special recipe. The Balsamic Vinegar was aged up to 25 years or more, and
sometimes spiced with herbs and seasonings. "

Take this as you will - remember, though, that foods with a long history
make for great marketing.

Balsamic vinegar (or aceto balsamico, if you prefer) is most certainly not
the same thing as champagne vinegar. The latter, obviously is made from
champagne, which is allowed (or encouraged) to turn to vinegar. According
to the web site of Master Choice (http://www.masterchoice.com/vinegar.htm),
another commercial balsamic vinegar producer, the traditional production
goes like this:

"After pressing, the juices of the trebbiano and lambrusco grapes that are
typical to the Emilia-Romagna region are blended and boiled over fire, and
then poured into barrels of oak, chestnut, cherry, mulberry and ash. For
years, the juice ages, ferments and condenses naturally, gradually
transforming into vinegar. Every year, the liquid is mixed with younger
vinegars and placed in a series of smaller and smaller barrels. The vinegar
absorbs much of its aroma from the oak and its color from the chestnut.
Then after five years, the vinegar is bottled."

That's the theory, anyway. Sadly, much of the cheap balsamic vinegar on the
market today is basically red wine vinegar cut with small amounts of
balsamic vinegar (not unlike Kona coffee, for instance, which sometimes has
as little as 3% Kona beans). You can get the traditionally made stuff, but
if you paid less than $15-20/bottle for it, it's probably cut with red wine
vinegar.

Mind you, this doesn't mean that the cheap stuff isn't fine to use, if you
like it. Heck, I use the cheap stuff 'cause I can't afford to pay twenty
bucks for vinegar. Just understand what it is.

- -Duncan, who recommends a dessert of fresh strawberries in balsamic vinegar
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Brady    tabrady at mindspring.com   SCA: Duncan MacKinnon of Tobermory


From: zarlor at acm.org (Lenny Zimmermann)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 16:02:09 GMT
Subject: SC - Balsamic Vinegar and Verjuice

Someone had mentioned a while back on the list that they wanted to
know when the use of Balsamic vinegar came about. I hate to say that I
have no idea myself, but I sure would love to know!

I don't always find that sour juice is easy to come by, and wouldn't
have been easy to get at certain times of the year in a
Medeival/Renaissance household. As such I usually substitute about
half of what I would use in Verjuice as a red wine vinegar and fortify
the other half with at least a 4 year old Balsamic vinegar (preferably
the 20 year old stuff, but that can be pretty darn expensive!)

For those of you who may not know, many of the balsamic vinegars you
find in the stores, especially the cheaper ones, are not barrel-aged
at all, but chemically aged and flavored to approximate true balsamic
vinegar. If you ever feel like spending the money for it, I HIGHLY
recommend trying a truly aged balsamic vinegar, preferably over 10
years old. I could just about eat it with a spoon, it is so sweet with
a nice tang to it. One of my favorite ingredients. 

I'll let everyone know if I find out anything and I would certainly
love to hear if anyone else has found out anything about how long
balsamic vinegar has been around.

Honos Servio,
Lionardo Acquistapace, Barony of Bjornsborg, Ansteorra
(mka Lenny Zimmermann, San Antonio, TX)
zarlor at acm.org


From: Uduido at aol.com
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 18:47:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: SC - Balsamic Vinegar and Verjuice

<< Someone had mentioned a while back on the list that they wanted to
 know when the use of Balsamic vinegar came about. I hate to say that I
 have no idea myself, but I sure would love to know! >>

The current issue of Wine Spectator has a feature story on Balsmaic vinegars.

Lord Ras


From: "Sharon L. Harrett" <afn24101 at afn.org>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 02:20:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SC - Goat Cheese

<snip>

Ceridwen

P.S.  Oh, and BTW, I found the method for making vinegar... its the last
entry on the page from the "Old Icelandic Medical Miscellany" in His Grace's
Collection!!!!!!


Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 22:30:57 -0500
From: mtraber at juno.com (marilyn i traber)
Subject: Re: SC -cider vinegar

>Ok, dear, I'll bite- how about directions/recipe for making cider
>vinegar. Thanks, Angelique

well, start with a hundred year old cider barrel, lol
actually, most apple cider[not pasteurized juice-gak] if left in the back
of the fridge will turn on its own. normally it takes what is called
mother-of-vinegar, which is a mass of microbal growth, place it in a
clean sterilized jar and add cider, sort of like brewing cyser using a
culture from a previous batch rather that dried commercial yeastbeasties.
I seem to remember that you can get mother of vinegar from brewing supply
stores and the wine and cake hobby shop in norfolk virginia.

it takes about a month to turn out a nice young vinegar, though it
mellows out with age. basically what I do is tap out a quart or so and
replace it with fresh pressed cider and make sure that i take out what i
will need for the next month or so.

margali


Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 23:55:31 EST
From: CorwynWdwd at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC -cider vinegar

> i seem to remember that you can get mother of vinegar from brewing supply
>  stores and the wine and cake hobby shop in norfolk virginia.

OR you can maybe get some unpasturised cider vinegar from a health food store
and add it to hard cider. The "mother" will form, converting the alcohol to
asetic (sp?) acid... aka vinegar. Done it several times now. New vinegar is
sharp, I cut the stuff with water to taste.

Corwyn


Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 14:03:34 +0000
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Vinegar

And it came to pass on  1 Feb 98, that Anne-Marie Rousseau wrote:
> Here's a thought...what types of vinegar do you think go with
> English food, vs French food, vs the Eastern corpus? Or German? or
> Spanish?
>
> Chiquart specifies red wine vinegar in his shopping lists. Is this
> because being Savoiard, this is the type he could get? Would an
> English cook use malt vinegar, ie fermenting the easier to get beer,
> rather than the imported wine?

Anne Wilson in _Food and Drink in Britain_ says that wine was
produced locally in medieval times.  The Domesday Book records 40
vineyards in southern England.  The vineyard at the monastary at Ely
produced so much verjuice that the excess had to be sold off.  When
cheap and plentiful wine from Gascony in France began to be imported
during the reign of Henry II, the English wine industry started to
decline.  The Wars of the Roses aggravated the situation,
as did the dissolution of the monasteries under Henry VIII, since so
many of the vineyards were attached to religious houses.

"Vinegar" made from beer is more properly called alegar.  Wilson
feels that it may have been introduced as early as Roman times.
Around the 17th century, alegar began to take the place of verjuice
in pickles and sauces, and began to usurp the name "vinegar",
previously only applied to wine-based products.  Although
other kinds of vinegar were still made, malt vinegar became the most
common.

So it looks to me as though both wine vinegar and malt vinegar would
be appropriate for period British cooking.

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain of Tethba
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom
mka Robin Carroll-Mann *** harper  at  idt.net


Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 14:07:03 +0000
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Vinegar

And it came to pass on  1 Feb 98, that Anne-Marie Rousseau wrote:
> Here's a thought...what types of vinegar do you think go with
> English food, vs French food, vs the Eastern corpus? Or German? or
> Spanish?

After discussing English vinegars, I forgot to mention the Spanish
ones.  The "Libro de Guisados" mentions vinegar and verjuice, though
it does not IIRC specify what type of wine they are made from.  The
more common souring ingredients are the juice of sour oranges, lemon
juice, and pomegranate juice.

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain of Tethba
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom
mka Robin Carroll-Mann *** harper  at  idt.net


Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 18:28:46 -0500
From: dangilsp at intrepid.net (Dan Gillespie)
Subject: SC - Spanish souring agents

Hello from Sylvan Glen:
        Lady Brighid said:

>> Here's a thought...what types of vinegar do you think go with
>> English food, vs French food, vs the Eastern corpus? Or German? or
>> Spanish?
>
>After discussing English vinegars, I forgot to mention the Spanish
>ones.  The "Libro de Guisados" mentions vinegar and verjuice, though
>it does not IIRC specify what type of wine they are made from.  The
>more common souring ingredients are the juice of sour oranges, lemon
>juice, and pomegranate juice.
>
>Lady Brighid ni Chiarain of Tethba
>Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom
>mka Robin Carroll-Mann *** harper  at  idt.net

        It is rather interesting that you say that sour citrus juices were
used more often as souring agents in the "Libro de Guisados".  The opposite
situation is true in the "Arte de Cozina" some 70 or 80 years later.
Verjuice & vinegar seem to be used pretty much interchangeably in most
recipes, although some recipes mention only one or the other; there are lots
of recipes that call for one, the other or either.  Sour orange juice is a
somewhat common as a souring agent & lemon juice is much less so.  Lime
juice is called for once or twice.  Pomegranite juice is not used at all.
                Take care,     Antoine
Dan Gillespie
dangilsp at intrepid.net
Dan_Gillespie at usgs.gov
Martinsburg, West Virginia, USA


Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 23:07:20 +0000
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Spanish souring agents

And it came to pass on  2 Feb 98, that Dan Gillespie wrote:
> It is rather interesting that you say that sour citrus juices were
> used more often as souring agents in the "Libro de Guisados".  The
> opposite situation is true in the "Arte de Cozina" some 70 or 80
> years later. Verjuice & vinegar seem to be used pretty much
> interchangeably in most recipes, although some recipes mention only
> one or the other; there are lots of recipes that call for one, the
> other or either.  Sour orange juice is a somewhat common as a
> souring agent & lemon juice is much less so.  Lime juice is called
> for once or twice.  Pomegranite juice is not used at all.
>                 Take care,     Antoine

::sigh:: That's what I get for relying on my faulty memory, rather
than double-checking.  My recollection of the commonness of citrus
juices is based mostly on the fish section of the "Libro".  In
looking over the rest of the recipes, vinegar and verjuice appear
more often than citrus, and rather more often than I remembered.
The vinegar, incidently, is generally specified to be white.

I'll just pull the hole in after me...

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain of Tethba
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom
mka Robin Carroll-Mann *** harper  at  idt.net


From: dwbutler at mtu.edu (Daniel W. Butler-Ehle)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Verjuice
Date: 2 May 1998 11:38:00 -0400
Organization: Michigan Technological University

Karl A Haefner (RENAISSANCE-COOK at prodigy.net) wrote:
: In two references, I've found that verjuice is a vinegar made from crab
: apples.  There are also suggestions on what to use as a replacement, such as
: cider vinegar with lemon juice added.
: 
: My quest ==>  I would like to find either a procedure for making of vinegars
: so that I could produce my own crab apple vinegar or a source for purchasing
: crab apple vinegar from.
: 
: I have NEVER come across a book on making vinegar.  Mayhaps I am searching
: incorrectly.  (Looking for verjuice in all the wrong places.)

Try a homebrew supplies store. There's a small book "Making Homemade
Vinegars" (no, that's not it...never mind the name) by Romanowski.
You'll also need a mother-of-vinegar culture (preferably for cider
vinegar rather than wine or malt).

Ulfin


From: Glenn David White <gdw0001 at jove.acs.unt.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Verjuice
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 03:00:16 -0500
Organization: University of North Texas

I'm pretty sure the Frug (you know...Jeff Smith...the Frugal Gourmet) does
wine vinegars in his "The Frugal Gourmet Cooks With Wine".  I don't have
the book at hand so I can't check my facts.

-Glenn


Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 21:48:11 EDT
From: melc2newton at juno.com
Subject: SC - Fish and Vinegar

I was looking thro' _Herbal Vinegar_by Maggie Oster for Christmas gift
ideas, and in the history (without documentation) section, she mentions
that...
        "By the thirteenth century, a wide selection of vinegars -
including those flavored with clove,chicory, fennel, ginger, truffle,
raspberry, mustard, and garlic- was commonly sold by street vendors in
Paris. Pepper vinegar was especially popular during the Middle Ages
because wine that contained pepper was not taxed on importation into
Paris."

Now were could I start to justify this statement (preferably in English
translation)? Has anyone else run across this pepper vinegar in French
sources?

Beatrix
Oakheart/Calontir
Springfield, MO


Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 15:18:26 -0600
From: vjarmstrong at aristotle.net (Valoise Armstrong)
Subject: Re: SC - Flavored Vinegars

Christianna asked:
>A fellow in my group asked me last night about period recipies for
>flavored vinegars.  Any ideas?

Looking through Rumpolt's Das New Kochbuch I found a flavored vinegar I'd
never seen before

Wenn man gedoerrten Meerrettichwurzeln pulverisiert in Essig thut/ macht jn
bald scharpff.
When one puts pulverized dried horseradish in vinegar it makes it sharp
before long.

Sabina Welser also has a vinegar recipe on kind of a large scale:
    Take a jug into which can hold twenty quarts and  spread it with pitch,
next take two pounds of tartar and pound it small and put it into the jug,
take four ginger roots, some thirty or thirty-two peppercorns, take
fourteen quarts of good vinegar and pour it in the jug, take six quarts of
good wine and bring it to a boil and skim it off. Afterwards let it cool
somewhat and pour it into the jug and let it stand for four weeks. See that
you do not stir it up, then it will be good and keep well.

Has anyone ever tried to make vinegar from wine or beer? I've seen several
recipes that call for hanging a cloth bag of sourdough in the wine or beer
and letting it ferment, but I don't have any sour dough starter right now
so I haven't given it a try.

Valoise


Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 22:13:00 EST
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Flavored Vinegars

THLRenata at aol.com writes:
<< And it just so happens that I have all three of those spices and was
wondering what to do with them! Recipes, please?

 Renata >>

Wondering what to do with them? Surely, you jest, m'lady. Almost the entire
extant collection of recipes from the middle ages call for the use of these
spices. :-0

On the chance you were referring to vinegar recipes, I collect unusual shaped
botttles with corks like those available at boutiques or dollar stores. Put
a teaspoon or so of cubebs or grains or galegal chips in each bottle (1 inch
sections if your galengal is whole). Fill the bottle with your favorite
vinegar (red or white wine vinegar or apple cider vinegar). Stopper them
firmly and store at room temperature for 6 to 8 weeks.  Mixed with
olive/veggie oil, herbs, etc. as per the standard vinaigrette dressing recipe,
they make excellent dressings for green salads. :-) Hope this helps.

Ras


Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 12:56:19 -0500
From: Ceridwen <ceridwen at ccgnv.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Flavored Vinegars

> Has anyone ever tried to make vinegar from wine or beer? I've seen several
> recipes that call for hanging a cloth bag of sourdough in the wine or beer
> and letting it ferment, but I don't have any sour dough starter right now
> so I haven't given it a try.

Done both, with better success with wines than beers. I got a "vinegar mother"
from a local brew supply store.  They are available in red, white, and malt
varieties.  You can also use a bit of "natural" (meaning not distilled) vinegar
to start a batch from  either wine or beer. Try finding those at a health food
store. The truly natural way is to let the wine or beer sit in the open,
uncovered for a couple days until it starts to have a vinegary odor, then cover
it with cloth and let it mature. The vinegar-producing bacteria need air to live
and reproduce so don't cap it air-tight. Keeping it warm speeds the process. It
is not a fast process, taking weeks to months to produce a satisfactory
product.

    I made a blackberry wine a couple years agos that came out *waaaaayyyy* to
dry for a drinkable or even a cooking wine, and decided to try to make a vinegar
from it. After the addition of the "mother" I let it sit at room temp in a
gallon jug with cheesecloth over the top. In about 6 months it had become a very
smooth, fruity, red wine vinegar, that is just excellent in salads. I use it in
cooking also, and have made a couple of herbal/spice versions from it.  It is
nearly gone, and I'm wondering if I'll ever be able to reproduce it (I really
need to keep a notebook).

Ceridwen


Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 01:34:56 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Flavored Vinegars

LYN M PARKINSON wrote:
> I've never heard of a beer or ale vinegar--malt vinegar, yes.  Is this
> from ale, you brewers out there?

You sometimes see references to alegar, which is vinegar made from ale,
the suffix "egar" meaning sour, as in the (I think) Old French vin
aigre, or sour wine. So alegar or ale "vinegar" does indeed come from
soured beer or ale.

Modern malt vinegar is made a bit differently, though, because I believe
it is made directly from the malt, without any need to ferment it into
an alcoholic beverage first. But, chemically, it's nearly identical to
alegar.

Adamantius


Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 14:53:24 -0500
From: "Nick Sasso" <Njs at mccalla.com>
Subject: SC - Malt vinegar....not expert info

Adamantius was correct in that you do not ferment your 'wort' (barley malt
tea) in making vinegar.  My experience has been that it makes very quickly
without yeast....or in spite of it.

If doing intentional malt vinegar production, I would make a wort of about 1
gallon water to 1-1.25 lbs. (U.S.) malt extract.  Boil for 1 hour (more
character and caramalization) and cool to room temperature as quickly and
CLEANLY as practical. You can buy this at brewing stores in either liquid
(like molasses) or dry.  The brand and variety is variable and will produce
varied results.  Lllaglander is a dutch malt that is less fermentable and
will likely give more malt character and residual sweetness to finished
product (relatively).

To this starter, I would add mother of vinegar and let 'ferment'/incubate
for manufacturer's recommended time.  I've not ever used mother of vinegar,
but it is most likely to give you a consistant and adequate innoculation of
the right bacteria.  Make sure everything is scrupulously clean and
sanitized all the way to adding the mother.

I give again the disclaimer that this is not researched or documented, but
deduced from what I know about brewing and vinegaring.......smooshed
together to this post.

niccolo difrancesco


Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:13:45 EST
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Malt vinegar....not expert info

Njs at mccalla.com writes:
<< I give again the disclaimer that this is not researched or documented, but
deduced from what I know about brewing and vinegaring.......smooshed
together to this post.

niccolo difrancesco >>

Actually you're pretty much right on target. Vinegars are produced from the
action of bacteria not yeast. Nine times out of ten the only thing you'll get
from leaving wine or ale exposed to the air is spoiled wine or ale. This may
taste vinegary but is in fact sour from spoilage.

Start with a base and if you want quality vinegar you add bacteria. If you
want quality alcohol you add yeast.

Ras


Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 00:59:27 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - [fwd]  [Mid] Vinegar info needed

LrdRas at aol.com wrote:
>  > I would
>  >have thought more of the wine books would have had at least a
>  >paragraph on vinegar, but no such luck.
>  >
>  >Margaret
>
> That is not so unusual. Wines are made with yeast fermentation. Vinegar is
> made by bacteria. What is it that you need to know?
>
> Ras

I'm pretty sure both Platina and Gervase Markham talk about how vinegar
is made. I'll check in the morning.

Adamantius


Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 21:29:54 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - high grain all-natural vinegar?

Chip wrote:
> It seems that I once heard about petroleum-derived vinegar being fairly
> common, but not common knowledge.

<snip>

> Anybody know if there's any truth to this?
>
> Red wine, rice wine, malt and Balsamic for me, thanks.

You forgot my two favorites, sherry and champagne.

Yes, distilled white vinegar can be made from petroleum. Not all of it
is, though, so it may be hard to determine based on a bottle of the
stuff. On a molecular level, acetic acid is acetic acid, and since
there's nothing, AFAIK, in distilled white vinegar other than acetic
acid and water, I don't worry too much about it.

Adamantius


Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 01:15:55 -0500
From: Nick Sasso <grizly at mindspring.com>
Subject: 'Faux' Wine vinegar (was Re: SC - Recipe: Sweet and Sour Lamb)

a quick tip for those curious:  When I do not have the white wine
vinegar called for in a recipe, I use a blend of vinegar and white grape
juice to approximate the flavor: 2 parts vinegar to one part juice.  It
is actually pretty close, and isn't hard to do if you have grape juice
in the ice box.  If not, a little apple juice will do in a pinch for
apple 'cider' vinegar approximation.

niccolo


Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 07:04:16 -0700
From: Anne-Marie Rousseau <acrouss at gte.net>
Subject: Re: SC -  Pleyn Delit et al-vinegar

Hey all from Anne-Marie

Clothilde and Allison speak on the use of vinegar in the middle ages....

I dont find that the vinegar amount in Pleyn Delit is so high...and I take
the words "make it sharp with vinegar" to mean make it sharp with vinegar,
ie it should have a definate twang.

Now I love vinegar, and have been known to drink the good stuff straight,
but 1/2 cup of vinegar for 8 people is nothing in my experience. And I
ALWAYS test my recipes for group consumption on someone who isnt as much a
vinegar hound as me just to be sure.

Much depends on the type of vinegar yoiu're using....I only use white
distilled vinegar for cleaning my fridge, and save the yummy cider vinegar
or red wine vinegar or balsamic for cooking. THose have a lot less sour
power per unit used. 

Dishes that use vinegar and you can taste it (other than
egredouce/soubriquet) include the paste en pot/civee de veau, Civee
d'oeufs, , most of the medieval sauces (consisting of vinegar and herbs,
vinegar and spices, etc, mustard and mustard based sauces), le menagier's
sauce for chicken ("half vinegar, half rosewater, and chilled, etc. Item,
orange-juice is good.") aceteria (a 17-18th century treatise on veggies)
has a whole article on it, all of the salats of course use vinegar, and
Apicius uses vinegar almost as much as he uses liquimen and pepper
(mmmm...chicken sour......:)). Even wardyns in syrop have a "lytil venegre".

Now, lots of these specify vinegar or verjuice. Verjuice (in my experience)
can range from VERY ascerbic to a gentle bit of pucker. Its possible that
Redon and Hieatt, in an effort to make the ingredients more "safeway
friendly" have changed out all the verjuice for vinegar, and that's why
youre getting more vinegar than you care for. 

And one of the neat things about reconstructing medieval recipes is that
they DONT give amounts, and so you can play with amounts on ingredients you
dont care for (to a degree, anyway). 

The medieval palette of flavors in my experience is sour and spicey...a
stew of vinegar, poudre forte. Sure, thre are dishes that dont use this
palette but my interpretation is that they LIKED these flavors, at least
according to the number of dishes that come out this way. Where the cooks
skill can come in is in menu design so that the whole meal doesnt come off
as monochromatic. Have a dish of civee de veau, but contrast it with funges
and frumenty, buttered worts, and an apple krapfen. The bright flavors of
the sour and spicey stew will come across as a high note, with the others
being accompanyments. all will end up augmented.

at least this is my opinion,
- --Anne-Marie, a notorious vinegar hound, who has to have several people
test her recipes and review her menus to make sure they're balanced :)


Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 20:39:45 -0500
From: Magdalena <magdlena at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Eggs graven with Vinegar

Morgan Cain wrote:
> As for the kinds, they did not, to my knowledge, have distilled white vinegar as do we.

Actually, Plat has a section on distilling vinegar.  I'm not familiar with the modern method, so I can't tell you how it compares, but he suggests using a glass vessel instead of the lead or pewter ones commonly used for distilling vinegar.

- -Magdalena


Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 05:32:48 EDT
From: CorwynWdwd at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Eggs graven with Vinegar

morgancain at earthlink.net writes:
> Probably they could not figure out how necessarily it happened. 

They knew how it happened, they just couldn't stop it. Neither can we without 
stringent sanitation, which is why you have a pickle crock and a brewing 
crock and never the twain will meet if you're smart. Some people don't even 
have their vinegar mother working in the same room as their wines and beer, 
and some people won't have it in their house at all.

>I know there is "mother of vinegar" which may be one of those bacterial clumps,
>used to start the vinegar.  And my Etymological OED version talks of vinegar
>as being produced by a form of fermentation ("acetous").

Vinegar can be made from any dilute alcohol, which makes wine and beer ideal 
for the purpose. we keep the vessels we make said potables in sealed to 
prevent contamination form the air and fruit fly like creatures we refer to 
as "vinegar flies" from getting to our brew and infecting it with acetic acid 
bacteria.

I too have seen numerous recipes on how to use wine or beer that has gone to 
vinegar, which is a completely natural process. I too will be looking for 
examples shortly. Don't expect it quickly though, lots of other projects in 
the offing.

Yes, sometimes it turned to something vile, but like people who can make 
sourdough bread easily in their own kitchen, there are some people who have 
the requisite bacteria present in their own homes to make vinegar. If they 
take up home brewing then they find this out very quickly. No doubt there 
were people in period that learned that if you put vinegar mother into a wine 
you got vinegar eventually, and started an industry. There were just as many 
people that were dismayed when they found vinegar mother growing in their 
potables I imagine, and cookbook writers to tell them what to do with it.

Corwyn


Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 22:07:39 EDT
From: CorwynWdwd at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC -making vinegar

kareno at lewistown.net writes:
>        So, if I want to make some (a little)   wine vinegar for a particulr
>  recipe,  I can just mix some of  the wine I would like to use with distilled
>  vinegar, and let it sit  "a while?"
>  
>      My thinking is in a closed canning jar overnight.
>  
>      Caointiarn

Nope, but you can buy vinegar mother, or better yet, buy unpasteurized 
vinegar in a health food store and add to the wine. Be sure to expose it to 
air, perhaps use cheesecloth or some other mesh netting to cover to keep 
flies out. Distilled vinegar is right out by definition, not only has it been 
pasteurized, and is therefore free of mother, it's been distilled and 
watered, it's pretty much just dilute acetic acid. You need the live stuff my 
friend.. :-)

Overnight? more like a week or two... try it after you see the slimy cover of 
the mother form on top and you'll know when it's ready.

Corwyn


Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 03:56:22 EDT
From: CorwynWdwd at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC -making vinegar (longish)

stefan at texas.net writes:
> Well, a bit longer than overnight. One of the period ways to speed things
>  up was apparently to put the vinegar-to-be barrels on board ship and
>  ship them somewhere.

Makes sense.. the motion of the ship would probably aerate the wine a bit, 
speeding the mother along. Nowadays in factory production of vinegar we 
actually pump the stuff over the mother on big aeration racks, over and over 
again. Speeds the process up immeasurably. 

Perhaps my own poor efforts on vinegar making aren't clear though. After a 
quick and dirty websearch I found this, it might help. It's from the Ohio 
State University Extension site. While it deals with cider vinegar, wine 
vinegar can be made the same way. There are brewing supply places that sell 
vinegar mother, but I have had NO trouble getting started with unpasteurized 
vinegar from a health food store.

The Ohio State University Extension
Human Nutrition
1787 Neil Avenue, Columbus, OH 43212

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Making Cider Vinegar at Home
HYG-5346-97 
Two factors require special attention when making vinegar at home: oxygen 
supply and temperature. Oxygen is spread throughout the mixture by stirring 
it daily and by letting air reach the fluid through a cheesecloth filter, 
which is used in place of a regular lid. The temperature of fermenting cider 
should be kept between 60 and 80 degrees Fahrenheit (F). Lower temperatures 
do not always produce a usable vinegar, and higher ones interfere with the 
formation of the "mother of vinegar." Mother of vinegar is a mat that forms 
on the bottom of fermenting wine that has gone bad. 

Do not use a metal container when making vinegar; acid in the mixture will 
corrode metal or aluminum objects. Glass, plastic, wood, enamel, or stainless 
steel containers should be used for making or storing vinegar. The same holds 
true for making or storing foods that have more than 1 Tablespoon of vinegar 
in the recipe. 

Steps for Making Cider Vinegar
The following steps must be followed to make a high-quality cider vinegar: 

Make a clean cider from ripe apples. 

Change all of the fruit sugar to alcohol. This is called "yeast 
fermentation." 

Change all of the alcohol to acetic acid. This is called "acetic acid 
fermentation." 

Clarify the acetic acid to prevent further fermentation and decomposition. 

Step 1--Making Cider
Cider is made from the winter and fall varieties of apples (summer and green 
apples do not contain enough sugar). Fruit should be gathered, then washed 
well to remove debris. Crush the fruit to produce apple pulp and strain off 
the juice. Use a press or cheesecloth for straining. 

Adding yeast to activate fermentation is not essential, but will speed up the 
process. Special cultivated yeasts are available for this purpose at 
wine-making shops and biological labs--bread yeasts are not recommended. To 
make a starter, crumble one cake of yeast into one quart of cider. This makes 
enough starter for 5 gallons of cider; double the recipe proportionately when 
making more. 

Steps 2 and 3--Making Alcohol and Acetic Acid
Pour all of the liquid into one or more containers to about three-quarters 
capacity; do not close the lids on the containers. Stir the mixtures daily. 
Keep the containers away from direct sunlight and maintain the temperature at 
60 to 80 degrees F. Full fermentation will take about 3 to 4 weeks. Near the 
end of this period, you should notice a vinegar-like smell. Taste samples 
daily until the desired strength is reached. 

Step 4--Filtering
When the vinegar is fully fermented, filter the liquid through several layers 
of fine cheesecloth or filter paper--a coffee filter works well for this. 
This removes the mother of vinegar, preventing further fermentation or 
spoilage of the product. 

Storing Your Vinegar
The vinegar is now ready for storage in separate, capped containers. Stored 
vinegar will stay in excellent condition almost indefinitely if it is 
pasteurized. To pasteurize, heat the vinegar before pouring it into 
sterilized bottles, or bottle, then place in a hot water bath. In both cases, 
the temperature of the vinegar must reach at least 140 degrees F to sterilize 
the product, and should not exceed 160 degrees F. Use a cooking thermometer 
to ensure the correct temperature is met. Cool the containers and store at 
room temperature out of direct sunlight. 

Flavored Vinegar
Flavoring can be added to homemade vinegar just before bottling. Good 
examples of additives include green onion, garlic, ginger, or any combination 
of dried or fresh herbs. To make flavoring, place material in a small 
cheesecloth bag and suspend in the vinegar until desired strength is reached. 
This will take about 4 days, except for garlic, which takes only 1 day. For 
every 2 cups of vinegar, use one of the following: 1/2 cup crushed fresh 
herbs, 1 tablespoon of dried herbs, 2 large cloves of garlic, or 8 small 
green onions. Other good flavorings include tarragon, basil, nasturtium, 
chives, mint, chervil, borage, hot chilies, and raspberries. Adjust the 
amounts to taste, but be careful not to overload the vinegar. Too much 
vegetable matter can destroy the acid and ruin the preservative quality of 
the vinegar. 

Some flavorings may not go well with cider vinegar's distinct taste and 
color. When flavoring store-bought vinegar, use more delicate or decorative 
flavors. When flavoring store-bought vinegar, you will still need to 
pasteurize it and use sterile bottles. 

Flavored vinegars taste great and have a beautiful color, making them 
excellent for use in salads. You will be tempted to display flavored vinegar; 
however, be sure to keep your bottles out of direct sunlight, which will 
destroy the flavor, acidity, and color of the vinegar. 

Uses for Homemade Cider Vinegar
Because the acidity of homemade vinegars will vary, do not use them in foods 
to be canned or stored at room temperature. Homemade vinegar is, however, 
excellent in salads, cooking, or freezer and refrigerator pickled products. 

Prepared by
Christine Nicholas, Intern
Doris Herringshaw, Extension Agent, Family and Consumer Sciences


Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 12:40:41 -0500
From: "Michael F. Gunter" <michael.gunter at fnc.fujitsu.com>
Subject: SC - Non-Member submission from Luanne Bartholomew

From http://www.nowheat.com/fooddb/food/vinegar.htm

Distilled vinegar is not distilled. The name merely means that it is made
from distilled alcohol. This is done in a fermentation process in which the
fermenting bacteria, a species of Acetobacter, oxidizes the added alcohol to
acetic acid. The fermentation mixture is filtered and diluted to give an
acetic acid concentration of about 5%. This is vinegar. It does contain
nitrogenous material which is in part derived from the nutrient mixture
added to the fermentation in order to keep the Acetobacter growing, and
in part from those bacteria that die and disintegrate during the
fermentation.

This acetic fermentation is common to all vinegars so that they all contain
the same kinds of nitrogenous 'contaminants', although in differing
amounts.

...[T]he ethyl alcohol from which [distilled vinegar] is made is distilled
from a yeast fermentation mixture. (In the UK, however, I believe that
'distilled vinegar' has a different meaning, that it is made from malt and
that it is in fact, distilled.) In most of the world, molasses, which can be
fermented directly by yeast, is the major source of alcohol. Alcohol is also
made synthetically from petroleum products but I do not believe that alcohol
from this source is much used in the food industry. In the U.S., starches
derived from grains are the major source, mostly (about 85%) from corn.

End quote.

Hope this helps.

Luanne Bartholomew
(Amorwynne of Dalriada ... for now)


Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 04:13:08 -0400
From: Christine A Seelye-King <mermayde at juno.com>
Subject: SC - Vinegar

Well, I'm up way too late trying to finish my article for my Co-Op's
newsletter, and this month's article is on vinegar.  I came across some
more information on the coal tar connection, and thought it might be of
interest here.   BTW, Stephen, the Florilegium is in my bibliography!
Christianna

"Vinegar can be made from anything which contains sugar or starch:
fruits, grains and sugar holding beverages.  Raw, unprocessed vinegar
contains the cobweb-like 'mother', a microbial mat that forms the basis
for the fermentation.  It is rich in enzymes and minerals such as
potassium, phosphorus, natural organic sodium, magnesium, sulphur, iron,
copper, natural pectin and trace minerals.  Distilling kills off most of
these beneficial aspects of vinegar, leaving it good for cleaning, but
not for health.  
In the late 1800s chemists learned to make acetic acid from coal tar.
Manufacturers added water to reduce its strength to 5%, colored it and
sold it as vinegar.  Imitation vinegar is still manufactured and by law
the label must state that it is diluted acetic acid. Diluted acetic acid
is inexpensive and lacks the vitamins, minerals and esters found in
fermented vinegar; its flavor and aroma are also inferior.  However, due
to its low cost, it remains one of the most popular vinegars in
supermarkets today. "

So, read those labels! 


Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 20:06:22 -0400
From: harper at idt.net
Subject: Re: SC - Lucrezia in Marketland - mainly OOP - LONG

<snip of verjuice info - see verjuice-msg>

> Another nice thing I picked up was some great Spanish white wine vinegar,
> distilled from Chardonnay. It is also delicious, and the Cabernet
> Sauvignon version I tried was even nicer (unfortunately they'd run out, so
> next time). Which led me to wonder whether they made white and red wine
> vinegar in period, as I don't remember ever seeing a receipt specify the
> color of the vinegar. Can anyone?

Nola does, though not in every instance where he calls for vinegar.  
Red vinegar only appears once, and the rest of them time when he 
specifies, it's white vinegar.  I haven't checked, but I'd guess that 
maybe some of the French recipes specify the color of the vinegar.

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)


Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 00:11:10 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] RE: -cran wine/vinegar...

Nicolas Steenhout wrote:
> I have *no* clue as to what would happen if you put a wine mother unto
> mead, though I suspect it might be worth the experiment.

Probably similar to what happens when you add a vinegar mother to ale...

> Acquiring a mother is somewhat tricky.  I have had one form naturally on
> wine, once.  The other two times, I borrowed part of a mother from my
> father (yeah, I know...).  You might want to do a web search...  dunno...

FWIW, Milan Brewing Labs in New York (which I mention only as an
example, not to recommend them as a resource) used to sell jars of
vinegar mother, oh, maybe 10 years ago. The stuff should be out there somewhere.

Adamantius


Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 00:33:40 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] RE: -cran wine/vinegar...

Cheriti Watts wrote:
> And what happens when you add a vinegar mother to ale?????

It becomes vinegar. Alcohol, and, eventually, sugar, gets eaten and
turned into acetic acid.

Adamantius


From: LrdRas at aol.com
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 09:23:46 EDT
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] RE: -cran wine/vinegar...
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

cassea at teleport.com writes:
<< And what happens when you add a vinegar mother to ale????? >>

You get malt vinegar.

Ras


From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] RE: -cran wine/vinegar...
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 19:46:59 -0400

>> I have *no* clue as to what would happen if you put a wine mother unto
>> mead, though I suspect it might be worth the experiment.
>
>Probably similar to what happens when you add a vinegar mother to ale...

I did the beer trick and it turned out just fine.  I had a champaign bottle
of unhopped beer which had been opened to early.  Had a little white wine
vinegar with mother in it.  The mother was the wispy cloudy filmy stuff that
was neutrally buoyant in the vinegar.  I poured said mothery vinegar into
the beer put the cork back on and let the bottle sit for a year or so.  Nice
malt vinegar which, with proper documentation, I entered into A/S.  Want to
see the documentation?

Daniel Raoul


Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 05:55:53 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re:vinegar and ale

Stefan li Rous wrote:
> > Devra at aol.com wrote:
> > > Actually, I believe what you get is alegar.  (snicker--neat word, eh?)
> > > Devra
> >
> > Technically, yes, and an excellent term it is. By that logic, though,
> > rice wine vinegar, cider vinegar, and distilled white vinegar are also
> > not entitled to be called vinegar. I figure if the Heinz company has the
> > cojones to call it malt vinegar, I'm not going to worry.
> >
> > Adamantius
>
> Huh? What is "alegar"? I thought all of these items were vinegar? Are
> you saying that only wine creates vinegar? If so, then why does
> fermented rice wine not make vinegar? Or are we also saying wines can
> only be from grapes?

Alegar = Ale egar/eger/aigre (as in egerdouce), or sour ale
Vinegar = Vin egar/eger/aigre or sour wine

By distinguishing malt "vinegar" as a non-wine product (as opposed to
simply a vinegar product), in other words by its origin rather than by
its sour nature (a perfectly legitimate and sensible if somewhat
outdated approach from a language perspective, given our use of terms
like malt vinegar, rice vinegar, etc.) we then leave open
reclassification of the other "vinegars" not made from wine. And these
include, in addition to alegar or malt vinegar, rice vinegar (since rice
"wine" is in fact an ale), cider vinegar (made from cider, which is not
wine), and so forth.

I guess it boils down to whether one wants to be exclusionary
(exclusive?) or not. But if one does, then it has to be unilaterally.

So does anybody know what the German essig is made from? is it just
concentrated vinegar of whatever type is available?

Adamantius


Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 04:05:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Angus <angus at iamawitch.com>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] essig was:vinegar

>So does anybody know what the German essig is made from? is it just
>concentrated vinegar of whatever type is available?
>
>Adamantius

In Sweden there's something called '=C4ttika' which I believe is the same thing as the German 'Essig'.  It's a water solution of acetic acid (the same acid as in vinegar) but it's made from pure alcohol (by oxidation, not bacteria) and diluted to  12 & 24% acetic acid IIRC.  Vinegar is often in the 5-7% range.

/Angus


Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 16:11:30 -0400
From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] re: vinegars

Here's an actual vinegar book if the online files aren't enough.

Vinegar : The User Friendly Standard Text Reference
and Guide to Appreciating, Making, and Enjoying Vinegar.
by Lawrence J. Diggs. paperback. 17.95 usd.
Amazon says:(This) tome tells everything the reader
might want to know about vinegar: History, commercial
production, vinegar making as a hobby, understanding
vinegar and how it's produced, flavoring vinegar,
and health benefits and medical uses.

Johnna Holloway

Susan Fox-Davis wrote:
> Funny thing, vinegar is being discussed on the SCA-leather group as well.  It
> seems that if you put iron in vinegar, some steel wool pads will do, the
> resultant compound makes an effective [if a bit stinky at first] black leather
> dye.  Vinegar, it's not just for breakfast anymore!
>
> Helpfully, Selene


Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 10:50:47 -0500
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
From: Gaylin Walli <iasmin at home.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Caointiarn's apple vinegar

Caointiarn wrote:
>I also started a new batch of apple wine.  However, I was in a bit of a
>rush before I left on vacation, and had a bit more than the 2 gallon jugs
>for the 2nd fermentation, so I just put the rest in a canning jar.  Came
>home to white floaty stuff  -- mother?  as for vinegar?  Smells that way.
>How long does vinegar need to incubate to be vinegar?  and do I need to feed
>the mother?  what and how often?   The stuff seems happy enough, and keeping
>it for my own vinegar would be way cool, I think.

Assuming it's the right bacteria, then yes, you probably have the start to a
very fine vinegar in the making. If the stuff is still floating on top then the
vinegar is too young to do much with. But if it's on the bottom, try taking a
piece of plain bread and pouring a little of the non-floaty-laden liquid on it
and see how it tastes. Likely at this point it will taste a little young, more
like cider or apples than vinegar. Eventually it will taste sharp like vinegar
but you'll probably find that the longer you let it sit (a nice dark warm place
helps) the more smooth and mellow with bite the vinegar gets.

I think that once you start making your own vinegar you'll find it hard to go
to the stuff they sell in the store. At least I know that I have. If you find
yourself using up that cider vinegar and you're getting close to the bottom
of the jar, save the last dregs with the floaty stuff and start a new batch.
Try some wine or some more cider with that mother and see what happens
with it. I've found that for the vinegars I've liked the best, saving
the mother and using it over again has worked tremendously well.

And it's a great way to get rid of those last little bits of wine that don't get
drunk at parties. Many of my friends save the bottles of wine that they don't
completely use up or that they don't like and give them to me for just such
a use.

Iasmin


Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 13:33:58 -0500
From: "Louise Smithson" <smithson at mco.edu>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Vinegar question.

The Ohio extension has a small faq on making vinegar at
http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/5000/5346.html

Helewyse


Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 07:56:41 -0500
From: "Louise Smithson" <smithson at mco.edu>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re:  rose vinegar period recipe (no redaction) long

Stefan wrote:
However, I have one question. The recipe talks of using
"rose leaves", not "rose petals". Would this work using rose
leaves? Or is the author really speaking of petals when he
says "leaves"? I note that in the comments about Elderne
(Elderberry?), he says "flowers" not "leaves".

The way I read it we are talking about blooms here.  Mainly because the
recipe talks about using them before they are blown.  Roses are blown
when they are fully opened.  And botanically they are leaves, just
modified, the actual flower of a rose is that little bit down the
bottom.  The essential oils are all in the rose petals itself and the
leaves are just, well green and nasty.
What surprised me is the recipe will take all summer to prepare.

Helewyse


From: Etain1263 at aol.com
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 08:17:26 EST
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re:  rose vinegar period recipe (no redaction) long
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

smithson at mco.edu writes:
> What surprised me is the recipe will take all summer to prepare.

-=grin=- Ever make herbal cordials?  Some infusions take more time than
others.  I suspect that it is the delicate nature of the rose oil that
requires the amount and time.  Something strongly flavored...as a mint, for
example, infuse rather quickly.

Etain


From: "Darren Gasser" <kaos at earthlink.net>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Just A Feast report (part 2/2: kitchen detail)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 16:23:22 -0700

Kirrily Robert wrote:
>  Used balsamic vinegar; not sure if that's period or not.  Anyone know?

Mostly yes.  I can find references back to at least 1046 for the existence
of balsamic vinegar, but  as a medicine.  It apparently became a prized
culinary ingredient sometime in the 16th century, and by 1700 was in common
use throughout Europe.   The production method of balsamico was fairly
radically revised in the mid-19th century, so modern balsamics almost
certainly taste very different from their period counterparts.

-Lorenz


Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 08:56:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Sekanjabin

>  I have no particular competition in mind at the moment. I'm just having
> a hard time finding documentation for vinegar. All I can usually find is
> a refernce to the fact that they had vinegar and it was used in this or
> that recipe.

Hm... have you tried Plat's _Delightes for Ladies_ and Markham's _English
Housewife_ (ok, I don't have either to hand right now but I know they have
some recipes for vinegars and/or what to do with them.)

-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa   jenne at fiedlerfamily.net


Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 23:12:17 -0400
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
From: "Cindy M. Renfrow" <cindy at thousandeggs.com>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Sekanjabin

> I was looking for a period recipe for vinegar yes. I make my own and am
> having problems documenting it.
>
> Elewyiss

This is from my new transcription & translation of Liber cure Cocorum, a
15th c. cookery book in dialect & verse, from Sloane MS 1986. This is 2
recipes in one for making vinegar in a hurry. The first method uses a red
hot poker dunked 9 times in strong vinegar & then in wine to sour the wine.
The second method uses roasted beans, steeped in vinegar, to sour good 
wine.

4.  To make venegur in a nede,
Take a gad of stele, I wot indede;
In strong venegur [th]ou schalt hit fele
ix sythes in venegur, [th]er-of [th]ou rek,
A-bere with [th]e hete hit [th]ou may,
And in goode wyne sleck hit I say;
Hit shalle be venegur, I wot hit wele,
To serue at a tyme at fest or mele.
And rosted benes, [th]at steped hau[e] ben,
Goode wyne schalle turne to venegur bedene.

4.  To make vinegar in a need,
Take a goad of steel, I know indeed;
In strong vinegar you shall it defile
9 times in vinegar, thereof you take care,
[Make] it scream  with the heat you may,
And in good wine slake it I say;
It shall be vinegar, I know it well,
To serve at a time at feast or meal.
And roasted beans, that have been steeped,
Good wine shall turn to vinegar anon.

(Tr. copyright 2003, Cindy Renfrow.)

Cindy


Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 11:32:17 -0400
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
From: "Cindy M. Renfrow" <cindy at thousandeggs.com>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Sekanjabin

> Thank you. May I use this as a source?
> Elewyiss

Yes.

The citation should read something like, "passage excerpted from "LIBER
CURE COCORUM, a 15th-century Cookery Book in Dialect and Verse, Copied and Edited from B.L. Sloane MS. 1986, with a Modern English Translation", by Cindy Renfrow. Unpublished translation, copyright 2003. With additional notes sent by the author in an email."

Cindy


Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 15:42:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Christiane <christianetrue at earthlink.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Good brands of vinegar
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Sharon wrote:
---------------------
I have a white vinegar  that I really liked that seems to have a live
vinegar mother culture in it.  Does anyone have people in their local groups
who are into brewing and make vinegar (on purpose :-) )?  I have stopped
using that bottle and thought it might be fun to try and use some of it to
make vinegar.  However I don't know how to do this and would like to have
some advice from someone with experience so there will be less risk of
losing the vinegar strain.
------------------------------

You need a homemade wine without preservatives to make vinegar; if you try 
and use a wine with sulfites to make vinegar, you will just kill your 
vinegar mother.

My dad's method: Take vinegar mother, put in large glass bottle with 
stopper that has a hole to let the gases out; add wine; put in cool, 
dark place; wait a week; check on vinegar strength; maybe wait longer. 
Pour out vinegar carefully through a coffee filter to get rid of silts 
and residues. When the mother gets too large, subdivide it.

Red wine vinegar in my grandmother's house was made from the infamous 
"dago red" my grandpa made (my uncle took over winemaking duties when 
my grandpa died. Grandpa had built the house with a cave; it had the 
barrels for the wine and the barrel for the vinegar. It also had 
Grandpa's still, where he made the rocket fuel, um, I mean, grappa.

Gianotta


Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 06:49:38 -0600
From: "caoitiarn" <caointiarn1 at juno.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] making vinegar
To: "sca cooks" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

----- Original Message -----
>> I have a white vinegar  that I really liked that seems to have a live
vinegar mother culture in it.  Does anyonehave people in their local groups
who are into brewing and make vinegar (on purpose :-) )?  I have stopped
using that bottle and thought it might be fun to try and use some of it to
make vinegar.  However I don't know how to do this and would like to have
some advice from someone with experience so there will be less risk of
losing the vinegar strain.

>> Sharon

      For you Sharon, I'm sending attachments about vinegar. {one is a
grouping from the Flori-thingy (tm) }  You could try with what you thnk
might be "mother"  and you won't know if it's viable unless you do try.

Vinegar can be made from anything that contains sugar or starch: fruits,
grains and sugar holding beverages. Raw, unprocessed vinegar contains the
gelatinous substance calld the  "mother," or active acid bactar that forms
the basis for the fermentation. It is rich in enzymes and minerals such as
potassium, phosphorus, natural organic sodium, magnesium, sulfur, iron,
copper, natural pectin and trace minerals.  This is visile confirmation
that vinegar is being produced.   I started with such a piece from my class
in making vinegar at Estrella 2002.

The truly natural way is to let the wine or beer sit in the open,
uncovered  for a couple days until it starts to have a vinegary odor, then
cover it  with cloth and let it mature. The vinegar-producing bacteria need
air to  live and reproduce so don't cap it airtight.  Keeping it warm speeds the
process. It is not a fast process, taking weeks to months to produce a
satisfactory product.

   This is how my first batch of vinegar started.  I was taking some apple
wine from first fermentation bucket to sealing it in airlock vessels.  I ran
out of room before I ran out of wine.  So, I left the 3 cups in a
quart-canning jar on my kitchen counter and went off for vacation for 2
weeks.  I came back to find the jar contents had grown a thin, whitish
gelatinous material.  It smelled quite sharp, very acidic.  I put it in a
cupboard and started doing some research for making vinegar.

  However, for predictable results, and to control the process in a manner
that prohibits unwanted and unfriendly yeast and bacteria, Mother {active
acid bactar} should be used.   Vinegar can be made from any dilute alcohol,
which makes wine an beer ideal for our purpose. The percentage of acetic
acid in vinegar is directly related to the percentage of alcohol used to
make the vinegar.   The ideal base to make vinegar should contain 5% - 7%
alcohol.  Thus, your choice of base needs to be diluted with water, avoiding
heavily mineralized or chlorinated water.  Moreover, because of added
sulfites to modern wines, the wine should be left exposed to air for 24
hours/overnight before introducing the mother.

  Just as in other fields of brewing and fermentation, keeping everything
clean and sanitized throughout the process is essential.   Keep in mind that
this is food. Do not use containers made from materials that react badly to
acetic acid. I like to use nonporous materials such as glass containers.
It may be a good precaution to not keep your vinegar mother working in the
same room as your fermenting wines and beer. Some brewers won't have it in
their house at all.  Another precaution: once you start making vinegar in a
container, especially a porous one,  don't try to convert it for use in
making wine, beer or cider.

  Making vinegar is an easy process, but one that takes patience.  It takes
about a week to convert 1% of alcohol to 1% acetic acid.    The vinegar
needs to be kept at "room temperature" {68 - 85F} for the mother to convert
the alcohol to vinegar.  Keep the container out of direct sunlight.  The
mother needs oxygen, so the container should not be air tight, or filled
completely.  Aerate the vinegar by gently swirling the liquid in the
container every day for the first week.   It may take up to 6 weeks before
you see a thin film forming on top of the vinegar.    This new mother will grow across the top of the vinegar and can become 1/2 inch thick within two
weeks.  Swirling will have the mother fall to the bottom, but that's okay.
If the alcohol to acetic acid is unfinished, more mother will form.  After
a month's time, taste the vinegar.  If it suits your palate, strain it
through cheesecloth into bottles and cap or cork them.  If you plan to keep
your vinegar for an extended period of time, you may want to pasteurize it
by a simple hot water bath of at least 140F, but not hotter than 160F.

     Caointiarn {currently "making" a nice white & burgundy vinegar}


Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 07:47:06 -0500
From: Stephen Bloch <sbloch at adelphi.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sekanjabin Origins now vinegar
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Elewyiss wrote:
>> I don't suppose  you know of a period cookbook with an actual recipe  
>> for vinegar? I'm still having trouble documenting it.

to which Elizabeth or David replied:
> You want a recipe for vinegar? Vinegar normally shows up as an  
> ingredient.

Channeling the author (Douglas Adams?) who said "flying is the art of
falling on the ground and missing," vinegar is basically failed wine;
literally "vin aigre", or sour wine.  More precisely, wine is
normally fermented in the presence of very little oxygen, so the
yeast is forced into its anaerobic metabolic mode, which produces
alcohol as a waste product; in the presence of oxygen, the yeast
prefers a more efficient aerobic metabolic mode that produces acetic
acid instead.

Does that sound right?  (I'm not a brewer....)

Anyway, I suspect that every human society that's ever made a
fermented beverage has had a corresponding vinegar.
-- 
                                      John Elys
    (the artist formerly known as mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib)


Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 09:19:32 -0500
From: Sandra Kisner <sjk3 at cornell.edu>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] making vinegar
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> I don't suppose  you know of a period cookbook with an actual recipe  
> for vinegar? I'm still having trouble documenting it.
>
> Elewyiss

Stere Htt Well ("A book of medieval refinements, recipes and remedies from
a manuscript in Samuel Pepys's library" - Pepys Library ms 1047) has a
recipe.  Though the Pepys is OOP, the ms. is perhaps 15th century.  This is
a facing-page translation, with no redactions.  The Introduction by Delia
Smith, on the other hand, is one of those hideous "disguise the smell
and  flavour of decaying flesh" sorts of things (thank goodness for  
libraries).

To turn wine to vinegar or ale to alegar or cider to eisell
Take a pot and fill it full of wine, eisell or good ale and stop the mouth
well so that nothing may get in or out and put in a vessel full of water
and set the vessel on the fire and let the pot of wine boil in the same way
a long while until it is turned.

This doesn't look like any modern instructions I've seen, and the whole
"stop it well" seems counter to the "make wine vs make vinegar"
aerobic/anaerobic bit.

Sandra


Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 09:46:58 -0800
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subect: Re: [Sca-cooks] making vinegar
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

>> I don't suppose  you know of a period cookbook withan actual recipe  
>> for vinegar? I'm still having trouble documenting it.
>>
>> Elewyiss
>
> Stere Htt Well ("A book of medieval refinements, recipes and
> remedies from a manuscript in Samuel Pepys's library" - Pepys
> Library ms 1047) has a recipe. Though the Pepys is OOP, the ms. is
> perhaps 15th century.  This is a facing-page translation, with no
> redactions.  The Introduction by Delia Smith, on the other hand, is
> one of those hideous "disguise the smell and  flavour of decaying
> flesh" sorts of things (thank goodness for libraries).

The modern English translations are also unreliable. It's the source
for our "that no egg may escape" translation anecdote--the translator
knew about the 15th c. word for egg, and as a result mistranslated
"ai" as "egg." The recipe has no eggs in it.
--  
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com


Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:47:27 -0500
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Vinegar
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

On 17 Nov 2004, at 23:24, The Borg wrote:
> I don't suppose  you know of a period cookbook with an actual recipe 
> for vinegar? I'm still having trouble documenting it.
>
> Elewyiss

The "Libro de Agricultura" (1551) by Gabriel Alonso de Herrera has
instructions for making vinegar.  The simplest method is to place wine in a
vessel that previously contained vinegar, and leave it in the sun (or a warm
place).

The book is online, but it's page images of the original, in untranslated
Spanish.
http://alfama.sim.ucm.es/dioscorides/consulta_libro.asp?ref=X533701960
(Go to image # 103)

Brighid ni Chiarain *** mka Robin Carroll-Mann
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom


Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:36:22 -0800
From: aeduin <aeduin at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Vinegat (was: German Harvest Feast Outlands
	Nov 04
To: Bill Fisher <liamfisher at gmail.com>,	Cooks within the SCA
	<sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

>> You comment discussing the pork and onion recipe that balsamic
>> vinegar isn't period. This suprises me; if so, when did it come in?
>> Anyone know?
>>
>> Elizabeth/Betty Cook
>
> Dunno from actual source documentaion, but the balsalmico
> sites from Italy claim the 10th century or so.
> http://www.harvestfields.netfirms.com/herbs/Vin/01.htm
>
> This is an interesting site that he claims he has documentation
> for the 11th Century.  But it was mostly an 'in Modena" thing
> that was kept local.
>
> Real nice site with some cool vinegar stuff - recipes, etc.
>
> Cadoc

If you look at the very bottom of the page it says, "In 1861 Mr.
Aggazzotti, a lawyer, introduced a revolutionary production technique that
used concentrated grape must as the raw material instead of wine vinegar.
This is the method that has been used ever since to produce traditional
balsamic vinegars."  Which to me indicates that the balsamic vinegar that
we know and use today is not what was around back then.  This thought is
backed up by this statement, "Further documentary proof confirms Modena as
the birthplace of balsamic vinegar, whose method of preparation did not
undergo any significant changes for many centuries."

So, using one article as documentation you can infer that Balsamic vinegar
is period but that what we get today may be similar in taste but we will
probably never know.

aeduin


Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:37:34 -0600
From: Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] making vinegar
To: SCA-Cooks maillist SCA-Cooks <SCA-Cooks at ansteorra.org>

Cadoc commented:
> On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 09:19:32 -0500, Sandra Kisner <sjk3 at cornell.edu> wrote:
>> To turn wine to vinegar or ale to alegar or cider to eisell
>> Take a pot and fill it full of wine, eisell or good ale and stop the mouth
>> well so that nothing may get in or out and put in a vessel full of water
>> and set the vessel on the fire and let the pot of wine boil in the same way
>> a long while until it is turned.
>
> That sounds like an explosion and a trip to the burn ward.

If the vessel is so tightly sealed that the whatever is stopping the
mouth doesn't blow out.

   However, for this I think I'd want to see the original rather than the
translation. I'm wondering if the translation is wrong for "boil" and
that it wasn't originally something more like warm or possibly simmer.
Besides the danger, I don't think boiling would do any good. It also
doesn't say how long to do this other than a "long while". Perhaps what
is really being called for is to keep the wine warm for a long time.
Cold and even cool air is a preservative. That is the reason wine is
usually stored in cellars. Perhaps all that is meant here is to raise
the temperature to a point where the vinegar making beasties (they are
different from the yeasts that make wine?) can live and continue their
work. Perhaps 75 or 85 degrees? This also assumes that the wine already
has had some contamination which was being kept in check by keeping the
wine cool. Otherwise the filling the pot to the top and stoppering it
doesn't make much sense.

Stefan
--------
THLord Stefan li Rous    Barony of Bryn Gwlad    Kingdom of Ansteorra
     Mark S. Harris           Austin, Texas


Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 21:46:31 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sekanjabin Origins now vinegar
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

I believe you will find that it is not yeast producing acetic acid but
bacteria breaking down the ethanol from previous yeast fermentation.

Bear

> vinegar is basically failed wine;
> literally "vin aigre", or sour wine.  More precisely, wine is
> normally fermented in the presence of very little oxygen, so the
> yeast is forced into its anaerobic metabolic mode, which produces
> alcohol as a waste product; in the presence of oxygen, the yeast
> prefers a more efficient aerobic metabolic mode that produces acetic
> acid instead.
>
>                                      John Elys


Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 09:31:39 -0500
From: Bill Fisher <liamfisher at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sekanjabin Origins now vinegar
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> I believe you will find that it is not yeast producing acetic acid but
> bacteria breaking down the ethanol from previous yeast fermentation.
>
> Bear

Neat site of the day:
http://www.vinegarman.com/zoo_vinegar_bacteria1.shtml

The vinegar bacteria zoo!

Cadoc


Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 13:05:02 -0500
From: Daniel Myers <edouard at medievalcookery.com>
Subject: [Sca-coos] Vinegar documentation
To: SCA Cooks <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

For whoever it was who was looking for documentation for making
vinegar, I just came across this in Liber cure cocorum  [
http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~gloning/lcc3.htm ].

To make venegur manede;

   Take a gad of stele I wot in dede;
   In strong venegur þou schalt hit seke
   ix sythes in venegur, þerof þoureke,
   A bere with þe hete hit þou may,
   And in goode wyne sleck hit I say;
   Hit shalle be venegur I wot hit wele,
   To serve at a tyme at fest or mele.
   And rosted benes, þat steped han bene,
   Goode wyne schalle turne to venegur be dene.

- Doc


Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:24:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Documentation for vinegar
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>,
	The_Borg1 at comcast.net

-----Original Message-----
From: The Borg <The_Borg1 at comcast.net>
I have a recipe for vinegar. What I need is some way to document my recipe.
Basically I use the put wine in a bottle formerly holding vinegar and set in
the sun.
[snip]

Elewyiss

_____________________________________________

Okay, here's documentation for this method, taken from a 16th c. 
Spanish agricultural manual.  A facsimile is online at:
http://alfama.sim.ucm.es/dioscorides/consulta_libro.asp?ref=X533701960

Below I have transcribed and translated the relevant section.  The 
spelling of the original Spanish is slightly modernized, as I cannot 
reproduce some of the abbreviations and special characters.  If you 
want to print out the page from the facsimile, go to the above URL, and 
type 104 in the little search window labelled "Ir a", and click the 
arrow to the right of it.

Capi. XXXIII  Del vinagre y de muchas maneras de lo saber hazer

El vinagre se haze de dos maneras.  Una de si mismo que el vino se 
corronpe y se haze vinagre.  Otro hazen: y desto hemos de dezir, como 
se ha de hazer, y hemenciar, porque en algunas partes es de tanto 
precio: y aun mas que el vino y poresso quieren hazer de vino vinagre: 
y aun si vino no ay, aun se pude hazer de otros materiales: y hazese 
delas maneras siguentes.  Una es poner el vino al sol en alguna vasija 
que aya tenido vinagre, y sino lo ponen al sol sea en algun lugar 
caliente: o cerca del fuego.  Otra es o pasar lo por cascas azedas, o 
echar un poco de vinagre o vino o agua enlas cascas: y este algunos 
dias enlas cascas.  Hazese tambien y presto de vino vinagre: 
callentando bien al fuego unas vergas del hazero y meterlas enel vino y 
esto se haga muchas vezes y cubran la vasija que no salga aquel 
calor...

Gabriel Alonso de Herrera
Libro de agricultura que es de la labraça y criança y de muchas otras 
particularidades del campo
Toledo [Spain], 1551

Chapter XXXIII

Of vinegar and of many ways to know how to make it

Vinegar is made in two ways.  The first is by itself, when wine spoils 
and becomes vinegar.  The other is that they make it, and it is of this 
that we must speak, how one has to make it, and manufacture it, because 
in some places it is of such value, and even more than wine, and 
because of this they wish to make vinegar out of wine.  And even if 
there is no wine, it can be made from other materials: and they make it 
in the following ways.  One is to put the wine in the sun in a vessel 
that has contained vinegar, and if they don't put it in the sun it 
should be in some hot place, or near the fire.  Another is to pass it 
through sour grapeskins, or to cast a little vinegar or wine or water 
on the grapeskins: and it should be on the grapeskins for several days. 
  They also swiftly make vinegar from wine, heating several rods of 
steel quite well on the fire, and placing them in the wine, and this is 
done many times, and they cover the vessel so that the heat does not 
escape...

[The rest of the chapter discusses verjus and other kinds of vinegar, 
such as rose vinegar, elder-flower vinegar, etc.)  I don't have time to 
transcribe and translate all of it.  As a point of interest -- after 
the mention of elder-flower vinegar, the book says that one can use 
other things which are fragrant and stimulating/warming.  So herb 
vinegar is quite period, if you choose the right herbs.]

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom


Date: Sun,  Feb 2005 16:19:01 -0500
From: "a5foil" <a5foil at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Vinegar
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

AElln scripsit:
> OK - so I'm an ordinary merchant class housewife in Norway *G* and I'm
> looking at a recipe that calls for vinegar. What kind do I think they
> mean? What do I have on hand?

I was just looking through "Two Anglo-Norman Culinary Collectios" and found
a recipe calling for not only wine vinegar (vin egre 'sour wine') but also
what the authors translate as cider vinegar and ale or malt vinegar. The
manuscript is late 13th century. So presumably any or all of these would be
known to you well-to-do Norse housewife.

Cynara


Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 14:38:29 -0500
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
	<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] wine vinegar
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Also sprach Alexa:
> I found a recipe for a sauce that uses wine vinegar.
> Well, I know there are a few different ones out there.
>  What would be the best for a period sauce recipe
> calling for 'wine vinegar'.  The recipe did not
> specify rice wine, red wine, etc.
>
> Alexa

Well, if the recipe doesn't specify, you presumably have a choice,
which may or may not be based upon the likelihood of red wine or
white wine being more prevalent in the country of origin. So, for
example, a German recipe might be slightly more likely to use a white
wine vinegar (or alegar, for that matter), because while they did
import and use red wines, they also made a lot of white wines. In
southern Italy, say, red wine is probably a more likely candidate for
vinegar production.

Then, there's the question of color. Which is better, or which do you
prefer? In a sauce that's supposed to be white, you might find a
little red wine vinegar changes that. How important is that to you?
In something like a cameline sauce red is probably best; in a white
garlic sauce, well, do the math.

Flavor, same thing. For me, I generally don't bother even buying red
wine vinegar, because with the exception of balsamic, I usually don't
like the stuff (even balsamic, to me, is usually kinda overrated);
give me a good white wine vinegar, sherry or champagne vinegar any
day.

Bottom line? It's up to you, based on your assessment as to which is
more likely to be found in the time/place you're working with, and
which you prefer.

Adamantius


Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 20:44:27 -0500
From: patrick.levesque at elf.mcgill.ca
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Follow-up on vinegar
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

This is a summary of what is said on vinegar in 'Les Délices de la Campagne',
pp.73-83  (1655 - I'm sorry this is somewhat OOP, but that's what I'm
researching nowadays)

According to Bonnefons, vinegar is made in new casks, using a very strong
vinegar as a starter, to which wine, from which any scum will have been
removed, is gradually added (over the course of many weeks), always keeping the
vinegar in a warm place.

Your daily vinegar is kept in a barrel in a warm place as well. You add leftover
wine (after warming it somewhat) in small quantities so as not to soften the
vinegar. Leave the barrel open.

Different kinds of vinegar mentioned:
-Rose Vinegar
-Aromatic Vinegar (with cloves, cinnamon, nutmeg or other spices)
-White wine vinegar with dried vine flowers
-vinegar with garlic or shallots
-More aromatic vinegars (with long pepper, ginger or galingale infused 
during the initial preparation of the vinegar)
-vinegar added with blackberry or raspberry juice (hmmm... guess what my next
project will be???)

As far as I can tell, these vinegar are all prepared from white wine. This may
either reflect common use, or a bias of the author, for even on the section
devoted to wines, white wine is covered in detail, yet red wines are glossed
over pretty quickly. I am not enough an expert on period wine consumption so I
cannot comment any further.

Petru


Date: Mon,  9 May 2005 13:19:56 -0400
From: patrick.levesque at elf.mcgill.ca
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] vinegar, caudles
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Regarding vinegar and its strength in period: vinegar was kept for 
domestic use in a barrel and regularly filled up with leftover and/or soured wine.  Therefore its strength could vary according to a number of factors, including the strength of the original batch, what was added to it and in what proportions, 
etc, etc...

It seems to me that when something stronger is required, period recipes will mention 'strong vinegar' specifically. I'm at work so I don't have my sources with me but it shouldn't be to hard to find a few sources who make an explicit differentiation between, say, 'good vinegar', 'vinegar', or 'strong vinegar'.

Petru


Date: Mon,  9 May 2005 13:35:20 -0400
From: patrick.levesque at elf.mcgill.ca
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] vinegar, caudles
To: jenne at fiedlerfamily.net, Cooks within the SCA
	<sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> Ok, this is going to sound stupid, but can you tell us where you found
> this information? I have not seen this elsewhere and it would be good 
> to have the citation.
>
> -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, 

I posted this some time ago already - they come from two French manuals: 'La Maison Rustique' by Jean Liebault, which is on domestic economy in general (I believe the edition I use is around 1570 - I can confirm that later this evening) and there is of course 'Le Jardiner François' by Nicolas Bonnefons, which is somewhat OOP (around 1650 - exact dates later tonight for those
interested).

Bonnefons (I think - working on memory here) mentions aromatized (is this the right word?) vinegars as well, but I'm not sure there are references to cider vinegar (although there are plenty of references to cider and to poiré as well)

Petru


Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 20:37:39 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] vinegar, caudles
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

There's an English translation of  Maison Rustique dated 1600. There's another dated 1606 and the 1616 one is improved by one Gervase Markham!
Bonnefons appears in English in 1658. It was translated by
John Evelyn.

Johnnae

patrick.levesque at elf.mcgill.ca wrote:
> I posted this some time ago already - they come from two French manuals: 'La
> Maison Rustique' by Jean Liebault, which is on domestic economy in general (I
> believe the edition I use is around 1570 - I can confirm that later this
> evening) and there is of course 'Le Jardiner François' by Nicolas Bonnefons,
> which is somewhat OOP (around 1650 - exact dates later tonight for those
> interested).


Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 07:28:18 -0400
From: patrick.levesque at elf.mcgill.ca
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Vinegar (info on sources)
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

As promised earlier:

La Maison Rustique, by Charles Estienne and Jean Liebault. I'm using the 1572
edition, there were numerous edition in French (and as Johnnae pointed out, in
English as well!) in period.

Le Jardinier Francois, by Nicolas Bonnefons. 1651.

They are both available for download from Gallica's website (which is, of
course, where I got them!!!)

Petru


Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:14:16 -0400
From: Robin <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Flavored vinegar
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

I'm thinking of making some flavored vinegar, probably rose vinegar.
The "Obra de Agricultura" says it can be made with dried roses.  That
suits me, because I can buy food-safe rosebuds in the health food store,
and I don't have a source of pesticide-free fresh roses.

The "recipe" calls for steeping the roses in the vinegar, and leaving
the bottle in a sunny place for 40 days.  This seems similar to modern
recipes I've seen for homemade herb vinegars.

Any comments?  Is this a safe method, assuming that I sterilize the
bottle first?
-- 
Brighid ni Chiarain
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom
Robin Carroll-Mann *** rcmann4 at earthlink.net


Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:57:49 +0000
From: iasmin at comcast.net
Subjec: [Sca-cooks] Re: Flavored vinegar
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Brighid asked:
> The "recipe" calls for steeping the roses in the vinegar, and leaving
> thebottle in a sunny place for 40 days.  This seems similar to modern
> recipes I've seen for homemade herb vinegars.
>
> Any comments?  Is this a safe method, assuming that I sterilize the
> bottle first?

My personal opinion is that it's better to place the bottle in a warm  
spot out of direct sunlight. The rose oil seems to me to be too  
delicate to handle constant, direct sun. At least in my experiments,  
I've gotten a fuller flavor when I've put the bottles in my hall closet  
that sits in the hottest area of the house.

Iasmin


Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:42:35 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Flavored vinegar
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

-----Original Message-----
From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1 at comcast.net>
OK.  I'll bite.  How much vinegar to how many roses?  Sounds  
intriguing....

Kiri
_______________________________________________

It says a pound of roses to an arroba of vinegar.  The arroba is a  
liquid measure equivalent to about 16 -17 quarts.  I don't know if the  
weight of roses should change if one is using dried rather than fresh.   
Incidently, red roses are preferred to white, as they are supposedly  
more aromatic.

Elderflower vinegar is also mentioned.

Brighid ni Chiarain
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom


Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:52:53 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Re: Flavored vinegar
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

-----Original Message-----
From: Betsy Marshal <betsy at softwareinnovation.com>
I'd ask where is the recipe from? I wouldn't think England would get 40
sunny days in a row...maybe they said that to ensure it got enough  
warmth overall... (just my .02 lira;) Betsy
_______________________________________________

You should have offered your two maravedi instead; it's from Spain. :-)

It's out of a 1551 edition of a Spanish agricultural manual by Gabriel  
Alonso de Herrera.  He discusses methods of making vinegar, and  
mentions a few variations on the standard wine vinegar.

Brighid ni Chiarain
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom


Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 18:20:24 -0400
From: "Stephanie Ross" <hlaislinn at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] sour beer question
To: "SCA-Cooks" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Margaret wrote:
So my questions are: what does alegar actually taste like, is what I have
actually alegar, and can I use this stuff in cooking or should I just pour
it all out and recycle the bottles to some brewer of my acquaintance? >>>

What makes the braggot a "miserable failure"? Describing why you don't like
it might help us diagnose what its problem is. I made alegar using the
mother of vinegar found in Bragg's apple cider vinegar. The base was a
homemade stout my then boyfriend had made, very dark and malty. The alegar
tastes like malt vinegar, which is essentially what it is. If what you have
is alegar, then it should be reasonably clear, with  cloudy strands
floating in it that is the mother. It should smell like vinegar. If it
doesn't smell strongly of vinegar, has stuff floating on top or is very
cloudy, throw it out.

I made three different kinds of vinegar for a class on sauces from Le
Viandier I taught a few years back. My favorite was the cyser vinegar. I
had a couple of cups left over after wracking cyser, so i threw some of the
mother into it and let it sit. It smells wonderfully fruity and is a bit
sweet. The alegar was excellent too. The other I made was vin aigre using
the left overs from a bottle of wine from a party. A friend who is pretty
much an expert on making vinegar told me that i should not have been able
to make vinegar from the ale and wine using the cider mother. Different
bases take different mothers she said, but I had no trouble.

~Aislinn~


Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 20:41:12 -0600
From: Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] sugar cane vinegar
To: SCA-Cooks maillist SCA-Cooks <SCA-Cooks at Ansteorra.org>

Devra mentioned:
<<< In one of her historical novels about 1830's New Orleans, Barbara Hambley
discussed the cutting and processing of sugar cane. According to her, the juice
must be boiled down fairly soon after crushing the cane and extracting it, or
the juice will go sour. She's usually fairly reliable in the historical
trivia end of things. >>>

Thanks, Devra. My first thought when I read this was that, yes, with
the sugar concentration mentioned by someone else sugar cane might
well turn into vinegar rather than ferment. Perhaps it is a race
between which type of beastie gets a foothold first. But I also
remembered our discussions about wine turning into vinegar, so it's
not that simple. Hmmm. So wine can turn to vinegar, but I don't
remember any comments about the opposite happening.

Anyway, this tickled my memory about sugar cane vinegar and I went
rummaging in my stash of odd-ball food items (TM), and yes this list
is largely responsible for me having such a thing, and I found the
bottle that I was thinking of.

"Sugar Cane Vinegar", Made in Martinique since 1885. 16.9 oz. Product
of France. 5% acetic acid. "Sugar Cane Vinegar - This Sugar cane
vinegar has a subtil (sic) sweet taste and will bring in every dish a
unic (sic) flavor of the Island it comes from. Great in al
vinaigrettes and salads. Because of the high mineral content in this
100% natural sugar cane vinegar, a deposit could appear that does not
affect the quality of this product."

Hmmm. Under Nutrition Facts, it says "Calories 0" and "Total Carb.
0g". All the sugar in the sugar cane syrup is gone?! I suspect since
they get to round down in their labeling that with a serving size of
1/2 tbsp that there is some still there, but just doesn't have to be
declared.

Stefan
--------
THLord Stefan li Rous    Barony of Bryn Gwlad    Kingdom of Ansteorra
     Mark S. Harris           Austin, Texas


Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 07:36:18 EST
From: CorwynWdwd at aol.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] sugar cane vinegar
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

StefanliRous at austin.rr.com writes:
<<< My first  thought when I read this was that, yes, with
the sugar concentration mentioned by someone else sugar cane might
well turn into vinegar rather than ferment >>>

It has to be alcohol first, as acetic acid is made from alcohol by  aerobic
bacteria, most times it forms a mass known as a "Vinegar Mother". As someone
who makes both wine and mead on occasion, trust me on this. I've made vinegar
too.

Corwyn


Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 08:22:18 -0500
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Alliger - Fwd: [Medieval-Sciences] Egg
	Question
To: euriol at ptd.net,	Cooks within the SCA
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Jan 30, 2008, at 7:36 AM, euriol wrote:

> I got the following email on another list, and thought I could get
> help here on the first question. What is alliger?
>
> I have a guess that it is something akin to vinegar, but made from
> "ale" or "beer" as opposed to "wine"?
>
> Can anyone confirm or deny this? I'm at work and don't have access
> to any of my books.

Yes, it's ale that has soured according to the same type of bacterial
action as vinegar. Instead of Vin Aigre or sour wine, it's Ale Aigre,
or sour ale.

Adamantius


Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 16:39:49 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] "Medieval Vinegars"
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Malt vinegar can either be fermented from barley malt (alegar), fermented 
from the maltose in beetroot or  be a "non-brewed condiment" consisting of 
acetic acid, citric acid and caramel coloring.  You want the alegar.

Bear

<<< Just spotted this in the NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/29/dining/29vinegars.html?_r=1&ref=dining&oref=slogin

Personally, I always figured Ale-gar to be similar to malt vinegar. Is
that an incorrect assumption??

Ilsebet >>>


Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 15:15:24 -0600
From: "Lisa" <ladyemp at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Request for food info some OOP
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

<<< 2. I'm doing some vinegar research and I recall a friend gifting us with 
something called "five thieves vinegar"? which had a story behind it 
dating to possibly the black plague.? Does anyone have a recipe for this 
and/or a source for the backstory?

-Ardenia >>>

I found this in one of my herb books, The Illustrated Herb Encyclopedia:

Four Thieves Vinegar or Marseilles Vinegar
    This recipe was still used until the late 19th century, although without 
the camphor (a good idea, considering it can be toxic when taken internally) 
and rue.  Some versions even eliminated the garlic!.  Herbs can be used 
dried or fresh.
4 oz each:
rosemary tops
sage flowers,
garlic, sliced
2 oz lavendar flowers
1 1/2 oz rue flowers (if available)
1 oz camphor
1 tsp cloves, ground
1 gallon wine vinegar

combine all ingredients in a bottle and let stand 7 days, occasionally  
giving it a good shake.  Strain out the solid. 


Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 15:22:58 -0600
From: Jennifer Carlson <talana1 at hotmail.com>
To: Cooks list <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Making vinegar?

I have a bottle of homemade vinegar, cultured off a wine pressing that went wrong. Diarmaid and I used most of it educating fighters and Boy Scouts about the joys of oxymel, and kept back about a liter for cooking and medicinal purposes.  We put it in a bottle, fed it the remains of any bottle of wine we didn't finish, and eventually it developed a "mother", and has been happily working every since - about 6-7 years now.  As we use the vinegar, we refill the bottle with wine and let the "mother" it do its thing.

The "mother" is kind of hard to describe - It's a living organism.  I think its a particular kind of fungus.    

There are places online where you can buy vinegar-making kits.  There's a good article on homemade vinegar at:  http://www.foodandwine.com/articles/the-virtue-of-homemade-vinegar

It's absurdly simple to make and keep up, and better that the stuff in the stores.

Talana


Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 16:47:38 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Vinegar OT
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

There have been a number of news reports of late that mention
a new study where Japanese scientists at the Central Research Institute 
in Tokyo, published a report in the July 8 issue of American Chemical 
Society's /Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry/. In a nutshell, 
they found supporting evidence that acetic acid can help deter the 
accumulation of body fat (in mice), even when the mice were fed a 
high-fat diet.
http://health.msn.com/blogs/daily-dose-post.aspx?post=1188353

I came across this recipe today that promises "To make a fat person 
become leane".
It dates from 1569 in the English version and begins "Take foure ounces 
of warme Vineger..."

To make a fat person become leane.
Take foure ounces of warme Vineger, and put therein a quantitie of the pouder of Pepper, and giue it vnto the partie to drinke many mornings fasting, and he will become leane, or else giue him to drinke euerie morning of the Wine of sower Pomegranates, two scruples with Oximell, or water.

Alessio. A verye excellent and profitable booke conteining sixe hundred foure score and odde experienced medicines - the fourth and finall booke of his secretes 1569

Johnnae


Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 02:17:25 -0500
From: Robert Dunn <robert.arthur.dunn at gmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Making vinegar?

<< Any sources on vinegar making? 

Gunthar >>

Glad to see I'm not alone in my madness of vinegar making!

There are a lot of sources for vinegar making from the 1700-1800  
period, but prior to that I haven't had much luck with primary sources.

I found a French encyclopedia of mechanical processes from 1789(ish- 
it's downstairs right now) which stated that  those who entered the  
Corporatif du Maitres Vinegriers were sworn to secrecy.  So much for  
getting first-hand accounts of the Orleans method.

There are several online sources in GoogleBooks that detail production  
methods from Orleans to the Pasteur process.  Try searching for  
"treatise vinegar manufacture."

There is however the Qi Min Yao Shu, a multi volume work from China in  
the  3rd(?) century which contains methods for making 22 types of  
vinegar.  I have yet to find a translation, later edition, etc near me.

I'm actually entering my first vinegar (alegar) today at the St.  
Eligius event in Dragonship Haven, EK.

I made a brown ale based on a narrative from Digby, an alegar in an  
oak cask (Orleans Method) from the brown ale, and a horseradish sauce  
using the alegar I made instead of vinegar.

Bob
Thomas of Silverwood


Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 10:59:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Qi min yao shu, was: Making vinegar?

According to the Library of Congress, 'Qi min yao shu' is 6th Century AD.  Looking at the entries, not all of this work is cookery.  A lot deals with agriculture.  This record that I found was the first that gives 'cookery' as a subject

Jia, Sixie, 6th cent. 
 Qi min yao shu. Yin shi bu fen / Jia Sixie zhuan ; Shi Shenghan jin shi. 
Di 1 ban. Beijing : Zhongguo shang ye chu ban she, 1984. 
 222 p. ; 19 cm. 
Zhongguo peng ren gu ji cong kan 
Cookery, Chinese--Early works to 1800. 

Unfortunately, this book has not been translated.  The version that I have found translated, is about agriculture, not cookery:

Shi, Shenghan. 
 A preliminary survey of the book Ch?i min yao shu : an agricultural encyclopaedia of the 6th century /  Shih Sheng-han. 2d ed.  Peking : Science Press : distributed by Guozi Shudian, 1962, t.p. 1974. 
 x, 107 p. ;  21 cm. 
At head of title: Ch?i min yao shu kai lun. 
Passages quoted in Chinese with English translation. 
 Jia, Sijie, 6th cent.  Qi min yao shu. 
 Agriculture--Early works to 1800. 
 Agriculture--China. 

So I am not sure how beneficial the English version would be to cookery.

Looking on WorldCat, I found that Washington State University, in Pullman, has an English version of this title, although not the same publisher.  It still is listed as being under 'Agriculture'.

The English translated version I listed above has a lot of copies in many universities.  

Univ. of Calif., Riverside; UCLA; UC Berkeley; UC Davis; Stanford Univ.; Calif. State Univ., Los Angeles; Claremont Colleges; San Francisco Public Library; Univ. of Arizona, Tucson; Brigham Young Univ.; Univ. of Utah;  St. Johns College, Santa Fe; Univ. of Oregon, Eugene; Portland State Univ.; Univ. of Colorago, Boulder; Univ. of Denver; Univ. of Washington, Seattle; Univ. of British Columbia, Vancouver; Texas A&M; Univ. of Nebraska, Lincoln; Univ. of Regina; Univ. of Saskatchewan; Univ. of Missouri, Columbia; Univ. of Missouri, St. Louis; Washington Univ. St. Louis; Univ. of Iowa; Iowa State Univ.; Univ. of Minnesota, Minneapolis; Southern Illinois Univ.; Univ. of Illinois, Urbana; Univ. of Wisconsin, Madison; Univ. of Wisconsin, Milwaukee; Carthage College; Indiana Univ.; Northwestern Univ.; Vanderbilt Univ.; Univ. of Tennessee, Knoxville; Miami Univ., Ohio; Cleveland Public Lib.; Univ. of Akron; Univ. of Kentucky; Michigan State Univ.; Univ. of
Michigan, Ann Arbor; Buffalo Public Library; Univ. of Rochester; Cornell Univ.; SUNY Binghamton; Brooklyn Public Lib.; Columbia Univ.; New York State Lib.; New York City Pub. Lib.; McMaster University; Univ. of Pittsburg; Penn State Univ.; Univ. of Penn., Philadelphia; Duke Univ.; North Carolina State Univ.; Univ. of North Carolina, Chapel Hill; George Washington Univ.; Univ. of Delaware, Newark; Univ. of Maryland, College Park; Princeton Univ.; Univ. of Vermont, Burlington; Amherst College; Boston College; Brandais Unive.; Harvard Univ.;
Dartmouth College; Univ. of Connecticut; Yale Univ., Univ. of Rhode Island; Dalhousie Univ.; Univ. of Sheffield, UK; Cambridge Univ.; Oxford Univ.; Massey Univ. NZ; Latrobe Univ. Victoria, Australia; Australian National Univ. Camberra; State Lib. of South Australia; Univ. of Queensland; Univ. of Western Australia; Univ. of Melbourne.

I skipped some of the smaller American libraries, the European libraries, and the Asian libraries. I also skipped over all the Chinese language copies.

So, Thomas of Silverwood, there probably is a copy somewhere close to you.  I am just not sure that this English copy has the vinegar recipes in it, but not having seen this book, I cannot be sure.

The first book that I mentioned is not translated into English, but it does deal with cookery.  Perhaps Adamantius' wife or MIL could translate this for us?

Huette 
Caid

On 11/13/09 11:17 PM, "Robert Dunn" <robert.arthur.dunn at gmail.com>
wrote:
<<< There are a lot of sources for vinegar making from the
1700-1800 period, but prior to that I haven't had much luck with
primary sources.

There is however the Qi Min Yao Shu, a multi volume work from China in
the? 3rd(?) century which contains methods for making 22 types of
vinegar. I have yet to find a translation, later edition, etc near me.

Thomas of Silverwood >>>


Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 16:26:19 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Making vinegar?

On Nov 14, 2009, at 2:17 AM, Robert Dunn wrote:
<<< There are a lot of sources for vinegar making from the 1700-1800  
period, but prior to that I haven't had much luck with primary  
sources. >>>

Sounds like a challenge to me--

There's an Elder Vinegar recipe in Martha Washington's Booke of  
Cookery on pages 168-169.

There's also this recipe found via medieval cookery.com:
To torne Wyne to Vyneagyr or Ale to Aleger or syder to Aysell. Take a  
pott and fyll hit Full of wyne Asell or gode Ale And stoppe well the  
mowth that no thyng cum yn nor owte And do hit in A vessell full of  
water and set the vessell on the fyre And let the pot of wyne boyle in  
the same A long while tyll hit be turnyd.

This is an excerpt from Gentyll manly Cokere (MS Pepys 1047)
(England, ca. 1500)
The original source can be found at James L. Matterer's website

---------------

If you need to make provision for vinegar, empty the barrel of your  
old vinegar, then wash it thoroughly with very good vinegar and not  
with water either hot or cold: then, put the washings in a wooden or  
clay vessel, not copper or iron, and here let these slops rest and  
settle: then pour off the clear vinegar, and put it back in the  
barrel, and fill with more good vinegar, and put it in the sun and the  heat, and at night and in damp weather cover it up: and when the sun  
comes out again, uncover it again.

This is an excerpt from Le Menagier de Paris (France, 1393 - Janet  
Hinson, trans.) The original source can be found at David Friedman's  
website

-------

There's this book in EEBO-TCP.

Charas, Moyse, 1619-1698. The royal pharmacop?ea, galenical and  
chymical according to the practice of the most eminent and learned  
physitians of France : and publish'd with their several approbations.   
1678.

Chapter X is "Of Vinegars" and features descriptions and recipes.

This one should be part of ECCO; earlier editions in EEBO.

The way to get wealth, or, A new and easie way to make twenty three  
sorts of wine, equal to that of France : with their vertues. Also to  
make cyder, mead, rum, rack, brandy and cordial waters : pickles,  
vinegar and the mystery of vintners. Also divers physical receipts to  
help a bad memory ... : to which is added, A help to discourse ... By  
Thomas Lupton and Thomas Tryon 3rd ed. 1710?

 There are two modern titles in English that turn up:

 Marie Nadine Antol. The incredible secrets of vinegar : the  
quintessential guide to the history, lore, varieties, and healthful  
benefits of vinegar / Garden City Park, NY : Avery Pub. Group, 1999.  
ISBN: 1583330054 9781583330050.  Also listed as 2000

 Renata Salvarani. The land of balsamic vinegar : the great vinegars  
of Modena and Reggio Emilia: history, landscapes and traditions /  
Milan : Giorgio Mondadori, 2002 ; ISBN: 8837417853 9788837417857

Johnnae


Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 18:42:03 -0500
From: Sharon Palmer <ranvaig at columbus.rr.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Making vinegar?

<<< Glad to see I'm not alone in my madness of vinegar making! >>>

Rumpolt has a section on vinegar, I haven't tried translating it yet.  It's about 3 pages long, including a nice picture of jugs and barrels, that presumably contain vinegar.

Sharon


Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 14:32:51 -0800 (PST)
From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Any sources on vinegar making?

<< Any sources on vinegar making?  >>

Rumpolt, 1581, pages CXCVI to CXCVIII ("Wie man guten Essig machen soll" etc) which seems to be based on an older tradition of "Kellermeisterey"

http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0001/bsb00015958/images/index.html?id=00015958&fip=87.149.73.33&no=26&seite=94

The 16th c. translation of the Geoponica ("Der veldbaw", 1567) contains  a chapter on vinegar: "Wie man Essig machen soll auff mancherley wey?...".

Wasn't there something on vinegar in Alessio Piedemontese (and in Johann Jakob Wecker)?

E.


Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 14:49:43 -0800 (PST)
From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Any sources on vinegar making?

There is also a chapter in the "Ruralia commoda" by Petrus de Crescentiis, a handbook of agriculture from around 1300.

It has been edited and translated well into the 16th century.

On this page of a beautyful late 15th century edition you can find the beginning of the chapter on vinegar 

http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0004/bsb00041510/images/index.html?id=00041510&fip=87.149.73.33&no=9&seite=158

It starts with: "Qualiter fiat acetum" and "ACetum fiat hoc modo" (Vinegar is prepared in the following way ...)

E.


Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 15:00:19 -0800 (PST)
From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Cc: foodmanuscriptproject at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Sca-cooks] RUMPOLT 1581 is now online at HAB

Rumpolt 1581 is now online at the HAB digital library:
http://diglib.hab.de/drucke/2-3-oec-2f/start.htm

The chapter on vinegar is here:
http://diglib.hab.de/drucke/2-3-oec-2f/start.htm?image=00492

Must I say that this is wonderful?

E.


Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 07:54:53 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Vinegar Making Instructions - England (or
	other	countries) 1500

On Apr 30, 2010, at 2:11 AM, David Walddon wrote:
<<< I am looking for instructions on making vinegar in 1500 England.
Anyone have a source?

Eduardo >>>

It's not 1500 but the English volume Maison rustique, or The countrey  
farme has full instructions.
CHAP. XIX.

Of the manner of making Vineger.

_VIneger commeth through the defect of wine, as wee may vnderstand by  
that which is gone before: the riotousnesse and pleasure of men, hath  
beene the cause that Vineger came euer in request, not onely for  
sauces, but also for many other vses: It shall not therefore be  
thought vnreaso|nable to vse a word or two about making of Vineger.

The most common way to make Vineger is on this sort: They vse to take  
good wine, and therewithall to fill the vessell to the halfe, leauing  
it vnstopt and set in a hot place, as in some corne loft, or in some  
gutter betwixt the tiles.

If you desire to make Vinegar in hast, you must cast into your wine,  
salt, pepper, and soure leuen mingled together: and yet to make it the  
more hastly, you must heat red hot some stone, tile, or gad of steele,  
and put it all hot into the wine, or else the mouth of the vessell  
must stand alwaies open, or else the vessell must be set in the Sunne  
three or foure daies and therewithall a little salt put in the  
vessell: or else fill a new earthen pot that is not halfe baked with  
wine, and stop it well, afterward put it in a kettle full of boiled  
water vpon the fire, and letting it there remaine a long time in the  
boiling water, it will grow soure; or else put into the wine a beete  
root stamped, or a radish root, or medlars, ceruises or hornes,  
mulberries, vnripe sloes, or a shiue of barley bread new baked: or  
else you must take of the blossomes of the cer|uise tree in there  
season, and drying them in the Sunne after the manner of rose-leaues,  
either in a glasse vessell, or in one of blacke earth, fill vp the  
same vessell with pure Vinegar or Wine, and so set it forth againe  
into the Sun or in the chimny end to the heate of the fire, and in a  
short time it will become strong and very sharpe Vineger: but if you  
would restore it againe to his former state of wine, then you must  
cast, of colewort roots into it.

CHAP. XX.

Of some obseruations and instructions concerning Vineger.

_TO make strong vineger, take the fruit of the cornell tree, when it  
beginneth to grow red, and of bramble berries, such as grow in the  
fields, when they are halfe ripe, drie them, make them into powder,  
and with a little strong Vineger, you shall make little prettie  
balles, which you shall drie in the Sunne, afterward you must take  
wine, and heate it, and when it is hot put into it this composition,  
and it will bee turned very speedily into very strong Vineger.

To make Vineger with corrupted wine: take a rotten and corrupt wine  
and boile it, taking away all the scum that riseth in the boiling  
thereof, thus let it continue vp|on the fire till it be boyled away  
one third part, then put it into a vessell wherein hath bin Vineger,  
putting thereto some cheruile, couer the vessell in such sort, that  
there get no aire into it, and in a short time it will proue good and  
strong Vineger.

To make drie Vineger to carrie whither a man listeth, take of wild  
cherries when they begin to be ripe (and yet the fruit of the cornell  
tree is better) of mulberies when they be red, and vnripe grapes that  
are very thicke, and of wild a cornes be|fore they bee ripe, stampt  
all together, then take of the best Vineger you can finde, and mingle  
them all together, make vp the masse into small loaues, setting them  
to drie in the Sunne: and when you would make Vineger, temper some of  
these small loaues in wine, and you shall haue very good Vineger.  
Otherwise, take the vnripe iuice of corne that is very greene, and  
stampe the same putting Vineger thereto, and thereof make a past,  
wherof you shall make little loaues to be dried in the Sunne, and when  
you would haue Vineger, temper of these loaues in so much wine as you  
shall see sufficient, and you shall haue very good Vineger.

To make rose-vineger, take good white Vineger, and put therein red  
roses, either new or dried, keeping them many daies in the vessell,  
and afterward taking them out, put them in another glasse, and so  
keepe them in a coole place: after the same manner you may make  
Vineger of elder-tree flowers.

To make Vineger without wine, put into a vessell soft and daintie  
peaches, and vpon them pearched barley, letting them putrifie all a  
whole day, then straine them and vse the liquor: or else take old figs  
and burnt barley, together with the inner parts of orenges, put all  
these into a vessell, and stir them vp very well and oft, and whenas  
they are become putrified and resolued, straine them out and vse the  
liquor.

To make sweet Vineger, take fiue pints of strong Vineger, and with as  
much new wine reserued vpon the treading out of the grapes, adde some  
quantitie of pitch, and and put altogether in a vessell which you must  
stop very carefully: and after that all these haue continued together  
for the space of some thirtie daies, you may vse there|of for Vineger:  
otherwise, take a vessell of new wine, and mingle it with two vessels  
of Vineger, and boile them together till the third part be consumed.  
Some doe adde three vessels of spring water vnto two of new wine and  
one of Vineger, boiling them all together vntill the third part be  
consumed.

To make mightie strong Vineger, drie the grosse of grapes two whole  
daies, then put it in new wine, put thereto some of the vnripe iuice  
of corne, and you shall make a strong Vineger, whereof you may haue  
the vse within seuen daies after: or otherwise, put pellitorie of  
Spaine into Vineger and it will make it strong. Furthermore, if you  
boile the fourth or fifth part of Vineger vpon the fire, and put it  
vnto that which is before prescribed, putting it after all this in the  
Sunne some eight daies, you shall haue a pleasant and strong vineger.  
The rootes of couch-grasse when they are old, boiled grapes, the  
leaues of the wild peare tree stamped, the roots of brambles and whay,  
the quicke coales of burned acornes, and boiled ciche pease and hot  
tiles, euen euery one of these by themselues being cast into Vineger  
doe make the same strong.

Pepper vineger is made by casting into vineger or hanging therein  
whole pep|per made vp in a linnen cloth, for the space of eight daies,
You shall know if there be any water in the vineger, if you put into  
it any Salni|trum, for then if it swell vp as though it would boile,  
you may boldly say that there is water in it.

To make vineger good to helpe digestion, and for your health, take  
eight drams of the sea onion, and two pints of vineger, put them  
together into a vessell, and vvith them as much of pepper, mints, and  
iuniper berries, then vse it afterward.

To make vineger of sea onions, you must put ten such onions salted  
into fiftie quartes of sweet new vvine, and foure pints and a halfe of  
strong vineger, and if it be not sharp enough, then twice so much, in  
a pot holding fiftie four quarts, & boile them till the fourth part  
bee consumed: or if the wine bee sweete, it must be boiled to the  
spending of the third part, but such wine may be of his owne  
distilling out of the grapes before they be trodden and very cleere:  
otherwise, put into a vessell thirtie pints of strong vineger, wherein  
let steepe for the space of twelue daies, the inward part of a white  
sea onion which hath beene in the Sunne thirtie daies: after that,  
take the vineger and let it settle and abide in some place where you  
wil to vse it afterward. Dioscorides in his one and twentieth chapter  
of his fourth booke discribeth another manner of it.
It is to obserued and noted that all sorts of vineger are best helped  
to keepe their tartnesse, by putting into their vessels at the bung  
hole a sticke of red withie.
Pages 618-619

Estienne, Charles, 1504-ca. 1564.
Maison rustique, or The countrey farme? And the husbandrie of France,  
Italie, and Spaine, reconciled and made to agree with ours here in  
England: by Geruase Markham.
London : Printed by Adam Islip for Iohn Bill, 1616.

Johnnae


Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 09:41:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: wheezul at canby.com
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Vinegar Making Instructions - England (or
	other	countries) 1500

<<< It's not 1500 but the English volume Maison rustique, or The countrey farme has full instructions.
CHAP. XIX.

Of the manner of making Vineger. >>>

Greetings Maestro of the good smelling cologne...

K?chenmeisterei from 1516 has vinegar making instructions (Part V,
Chapters 1-12).  I could transcribe and translate if you'd like.  There
are earlier editions (1487) of this cookbook (also at the same site as
below). I haven't had time to hunt through 15th century German cook books
yet with a cataloging zeal, but there may well be more instructions to be
found.  Do you want me to look?

The recipes/instructions:

http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/bsb00009308/image_81
http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/bsb00009308/image_82
http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/bsb00009308/image_83
http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/bsb00009308/image_84
http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/bsb00009308/image_85

Quickly scanning I think the recipes are approximately as follows:

I. is sour grape based using old vinegar as a starter
II. is taking aged wine and setting it in the sun or by the fire
III. is old vinegar and wine in a crock, simmered in a kettle of water
IV. is wine simmered with a egg size piece of sourdough in a cloth
V. is boiled wine buried in the cellar for three days and then reboiled
VI. is made in a spherical glass (distilling glass?) or a crock. Wine is
simmered and fortified with red willow wood, ginger and long pepper and
has either sourdough from a raised bread, or hot baked bread added.
VII. Are instructions to make quick vinegar.
VIII. How to transport vinegar over land.
IX. is a baked loaf of rye and vinegar mother, repeatedly soaked in
vinegar and oven dried.  Vinegar on a journey can be made by putting
pieces of the loaf in wine.
X.  If I understand this correctly this is vinegar made from grape seeds.
XI. Instructions for beer vinegar - beer, beer yeast, herbs and white
willow wood.
XII. Another method of beer vinegar production using white willow wood.

Katrine in Three Mountains


Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 11:43:03 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Gluten Free Dijon Mustard

<<< Where did you find that distilled vinegar is made from petroleum products?
Arianwen ferch Arthur >>>

It's one of those oft repeated Urban Legends with a factual basis.  Vinegar 
is a weak acetic acid (5% is the common vinegar) produced by natural 
fermentation.  IIRC, most white vinegar is distilled from grain then cut 
with water.  Unlike other vinegars which have small amounts of other 
chemicals, white vinegar has been distilled to be pure acetic acid.  Acetic 
acid is produced from petroleum for industrial purposes.  Chemically, there 
is no distinction between distilled acetic acids.  If you pick up a bottle 
of white distilled vinegar from the grocery and a bottle of petroleum based 
acetic acid from the pharmacy, other than concentration there should be no 
discernable difference between the products.  The caveat is that petroleum 
based acetic acid is normally not prepared in a manner to produce an 
FDA-accepted food grade product.

I find distilled white vinegar best for cleaning and as a mordant, so I 
probably wouldn't care if they did make it from petroleum.

Bear


Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 12:01:05 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Gluten Free Dijon Mustard

Distilled white vinegar is commonly produced from wheat.  While distillation 
removes most of the impurities, minute amounts of gluten proteins can be in 
the solution.  Beyond that it is a question of the sensitivity of the 
recipient.

Technically, vinegar is produced from natural fermentation while acetic acid 
can be from any source.  From FDA Food Decision 140 (issued 27 Feb 1912), 
"Acetic acid diluted - The product made by diluting acetic acid is not 
vinegar and when intended for food purposes must be free from harmful 
impurities and sold under its own name."  The policy was reissued in 1952 
and after a study of the trace components of vinegar and acetic acid, the 
current policy was formulated in 1969.

"POLICY:

Acetic acid is generally recognized as safe for use in foods if it is of 
"food-grade" and is used in accord with good manufacturing processes.

Acetic acid is considered "food-grade" if it complies with the 
specifications in Food Chemicals Codex.

Diluted acetic acid is not vinegar. When used as an ingredient in food, it 
should be declared by its name, "acetic acid" or "diluted acetic acid".

The labeling of a food in which acetic acid is used is considered misleading 
if it implies or suggests that the article contains or was prepared with 
vinegar. Acetic acid should not be substituted for vinegar in pickled 
products which consumers customarily expect to be prepared with vinegar.

Issued: 7/25/69
Reissued: 12/3/73, 10/1/80
Revised: 2/1/89"

Bear


Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 17:54:19 +0000
From: yaini0625 at yahoo.com
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Gluten Free Dijon Mustard

Bear- you beat me to the punch but excellently put about the gluten sensitivity. I will add that in the past people who were diagnosed with celiac disease, like me, were given a rap sheet a mile long with foods to avoid. At the top of these original lists mustards, like French's and Dijon were listed and white distilled vinegar.  Now, it is believed that the distillation process reduces the gluten protein to a safe level. The German Celiac Association states that 98% gluten free is safe for use. This is not 100% gluten free and for some with severe sensitivity this could be a problem.

Our family is very brand loyal because of how food is processed and the concern of cross contamination or sudden change in ingredients

Aelina Vesterlundr aka the Saami


Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 11:43:03 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Gluten Free Dijon Mustard

<<< Where did you find that distilled vinegar is made from petroleum products?
Arianwen ferch Arthur >>>

It's one of those oft repeated Urban Legends with a factual basis.  Vinegar 
is a weak acetic acid (5% is the common vinegar) produced by natural 
fermentation.  IIRC, most white vinegar is distilled from grain then cut 
with water.  Unlike other vinegars which have small amounts of other 
chemicals, white vinegar has been distilled to be pure acetic acid.  Acetic 
acid is produced from petroleum for industrial purposes.  Chemically, there 
is no distinction between distilled acetic acids.  If you pick up a bottle 
of white distilled vinegar from the grocery and a bottle of petroleum based 
acetic acid from the pharmacy, other than concentration there should be no 
discernable difference between the products.  The caveat is that petroleum 
based acetic acid is normally not prepared in a manner to produce an 
FDA-accepted food grade product.

I find distilled white vinegar best for cleaning and as a mordant, so I 
probably wouldn't care if they did make it from petroleum.

Bear


Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 12:01:05 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Gluten Free Dijon Mustard

Distilled white vinegar is commonly produced from wheat.  While distillation 
removes most of the impurities, minute amounts of gluten proteins can be in 
the solution.  Beyond that it is a question of the sensitivity of the 
recipient.

Technically, vinegar is produced from natural fermentation while acetic acid 
can be from any source.  From FDA Food Decision 140 (issued 27 Feb 1912), 
"Acetic acid diluted - The product made by diluting acetic acid is not 
vinegar and when intended for food purposes must be free from harmful 
impurities and sold under its own name."  The policy was reissued in 1952 
and after a study of the trace components of vinegar and acetic acid, the 
current policy was formulated in 1969.

"POLICY:

Acetic acid is generally recognized as safe for use in foods if it is of 
"food-grade" and is used in accord with good manufacturing processes.

Acetic acid is considered "food-grade" if it complies with the 
specifications in Food Chemicals Codex.

Diluted acetic acid is not vinegar. When used as an ingredient in food, it 
should be declared by its name, "acetic acid" or "diluted acetic acid".

The labeling of a food in which acetic acid is used is considered misleading 
if it implies or suggests that the article contains or was prepared with 
vinegar. Acetic acid should not be substituted for vinegar in pickled 
products which consumers customarily expect to be prepared with vinegar.

Issued: 7/25/69
Reissued: 12/3/73, 10/1/80
Revised: 2/1/89"

Bear


Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 17:54:19 +0000
From: yaini0625 at yahoo.com
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Gluten Free Dijon Mustard

Bear- you beat me to the punch but excellently put about the gluten sensitivity. I will add that in the past people who were diagnosed with celiac disease, like me, were given a rap sheet a mile long with foods to avoid. At the top of these original lists mustards, like French's and Dijon were listed and white distilled vinegar.  Now, it is believed that the distillation process reduces the gluten protein to a safe level. The German Celiac Association states that 98% gluten free is safe for use. This is not 100% gluten free and for some with severe sensitivity this could be a problem.

Our family is very brand loyal because of how food is processed and the concern of cross contamination or sudden change in ingredients

Aelina Vesterlundr aka the Saami


From: jlbqk6 at GMAIL.COM
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Vinegar making
Date: October 2, 2011 7:33:31 AM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu

You can purchase the mother of vinegar directly from some retailers as well:

http://www.store.homebrew4less.com/Mother-Of-Vinegar/products/871/

And yes, you can make vinegar from mead. Also from beer and any other fermented beverage.  Each will produce a different vinegar.

Korpr


From: rosamistica at EVERGREENES.ORG
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Vinegar making
Date: October 2, 2011 6:43:42 AM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu

The easiest way to get the mother is to buy some braggs apple cider vinegar, it is good quality raw vinegar and comes with the mother (check the label.)  Put some mother in the alcohol.  I don't know if mead has a high enough alcohol content, but I would love to know how it works for you!
-- 
Rosamistica Tomacelli de Greene


From: jlbqk6 at GMAIL.COM
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Vinegar making
Date: October 2, 2011 7:33:31 AM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu

You can purchase the mother of vinegar directly from some retailers as well:

http://www.store.homebrew4less.com/Mother-Of-Vinegar/products/871/

And yes, you can make vinegar from mead. Also from beer and any other fermented beverage.  Each will produce a different vinegar.

Korpr


From: rosamistica at EVERGREENES.ORG
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Vinegar making
Date: October 2, 2011 6:43:42 AM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu

The easiest way to get the mother is to buy some braggs apple cider vinegar, it is good quality raw vinegar and comes with the mother (check the label.)  Put some mother in the alcohol.  I don't know if mead has a high enough alcohol content, but I would love to know how it works for you!
-- 
Rosamistica Tomacelli de Greene


Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 14:57:48 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Side Dishes for al-Warraq

Modernly, apple cider vinegar seems to be the vinegar of choice.  Wine 
vinegar is a bit more problematic as there is divided opinion about using 
anything made from wine and there appears to be general agreement that any 
wine vinegar used must have turned naturally from wine to vinegar and not 
have been processed to produce vinegar.

Not really an area of expertise for me, so perhaps someone will provide a 
better comment.

Bear

<<< I've now tried a few more dishes from al-Warraq, and I have a question
which is germane to this one: when the recipe calls for 'vinegar', what do
you use? I've used verjuice, and it still seems very strong-tasting when
done; wine vinegar would presumably be stronger still. White vine, or at
least fruit-derived vinegars seem to be what's called for, though, looking
at Chapter 21 and the glossary (p 576-577, in Nasrallah's translation).

Aodh >>>


Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 17:19:46 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Side Dishes for al-Warraq

<<< It's not my area of expertise either, but I wonder if date vinegar
would be appropriate.

Ranvaig >>>

Looks like a good call.  After a little checking, apparently vinegar from 
dates and from raisins is common in the Middle East.  A source speaks to the 
mildness of raisin vinegar.

Bear


Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 18:09:08 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] vinegar and verjuice

<<< I've seen mixed messages on whether balsamic vinegar dates to period or not.

Stefan >>>

The term "balsamic" doesn't appear until the 18th Century.  However, there 
is a reference to "that vinegar" in Abbot Donizone di Canossa's "Vita 
Mathildis" (Life of Matilda) of 1046 in a story of Grandcount Boniface di 
Canossa providing vinegar to Emperor Henry II.  The location and history of 
the estate suggest that this was balsamic vinegar.  And in 1556, a volume 
entitled "La Grassa" provides a classification of vinegars that likely 
demonstrates (I haven't verified the contents or encountered a source I 
consider authoritative) that balsamic was being produced at the time.

Bear


Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 21:12:14 -0800
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] vinegar and verjuice

On 11/16/14, 3:20 PM, Stefan li Rous wrote:
<<< But if al-Warraq is a moslem source, would have they have had wine vinegar? >>>

According to Nasrallah, the dietary rules did not forbid wine vinegar. 
By her account, vinegar could be from grapes, apples, dates, or a 
variety of other things.
-- 
David Friedman


Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 19:43:04 +0000
From: Gretchen R Beck <cmupythia at cmu.edu>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Wine vinegar

<<< One of my butcher friends in a central market told me to make wine vinegar because that on the market today is totally sodium or something like that, I can't the exact word.

He told me to put 2 litres of wine in a container with a large mouth and put a piece of bread it. Cover it with a cloth to keep bugs out. Leave in a dark cool place for two weeks and you have vinegar.

I tried that. After two weeks, it was too weak for my taste. I forgot about it. When I got back to it, I had fermented bread not vinegar. it tasted awful!

Does anyone know what was missing in this recipe?

Suey >>>

Just get some Mother of Vinegar -- use that instead of bread.

toodles, margaret


Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 16:35:19 -0500 (EST)
From: Galefridus Peregrinus <galefridus at optimum.net>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Wine vinegar in medieval Islamic cuisine

<<< I'm pretty sure Nasrallah says that in the discussion of vinegar in 
her translation of al-Warraq. >>>

Yeah, that's where it was. But I also did a bit of web surfing through 
the hadith and found the actual quote, together with a number of 
discussions of the question by Islamic scholars. The quote can be found 
here:
http://www.theonlyquran.com/hadith/Sahih-Muslim/?volume=23&chapter=28

However, there exists another hadith telling the story of some orphans 
who had inherited a quantity of wine. One leader suggested that it could 
be made into vinegar, but Prophet forbade this and commanded that the 
wine be poured out.

I found a fascinating discussion citing both hadiths and attempting to 
reconcile them at:
http://en.islamtoday.net/artshow-381-3282.htm

-- Galefridus


Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 11:46:27 -0600
From: Douglas Bell <debell77840 at gmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Wine vinegar

Be very sure to keep mother of vinegar FAR away from any other brewing
projects. It will infect ale or wine anywhere nearby.

Magnus


Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 03:12:27 -0600
From: Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at gmail.com>
To: SCA-Cooks maillist SCA-Cooks <SCA-Cooks at Ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Mother of Vinegar

< Where does one purchase Mother of Vinegar? >
<< Around me the local homebrew shop carries it.  I wouldn't be surprised 
if that's fairly normal. >>

On  a whim, since they seem to sell lots of things, I checked Amazon. Quite a number of both mother of vinegar cultures and various types of vinegar that contained the mother, there.

The actual vinegar is much cheaper than the bottles of mother, but larger, so it likely costs more to ship.

Also, I can't tell if you just get one batch for each bottle of mother, or not. If so, that would make it a lot more expensive than buying ?live? vinegar.

1) Are there different types of vinegar mothers? i.e.: Is it better to use a apple cider mother if you are going to add it to apple cider?

I did see some "White Wine/Neutral Vinegar Starter", but the description for the red wine vinegar doesn?t seem to be that specific. So does it make that big a difference? I do know that many brewers seem to want specific yeasts, and almost never bread yeasts.

I did think the instructions on the red wine vinegar description might be of use to those making vinegar at home and those who have recently had problems:

<<< USING MOTHER OF VINEGAR Directions: Mother of vinegar can be successfully used with wine or any other alcohol to produce vinegar. There are three main aspects you need to make sure of however: 1. Remove sulfites: Sulfites occur naturally in wine but are also added to prevent bacterial growth which causes vinegar to form. To remove sulfites there are two methods a. Stir the wine for about 30 minutes - can work but is not always effective b. Add small amounts of hydrogen peroxide. Get the typical 3% hydrogen peroxide sold at most drug stores and add 1/2 teaspoon (2.5 mL) to the wine. Stir in and this should remove most sulfites. The hydrogen peroxide will not be toxic or harm the taste of the vinegar. The general formula is 1 mL of 3% hydrogen peroxide removes 10 ppm of sulfites and red wine contains on average 20-40 ppm of sulfites. 2. Make sure the alcohol percentage of the mixture you want to turn to vinegar is less than 10% v/v, preferably between 6-8% v/v. This is best
 achieved by diluting the wine. For example, to make vinegar from 12-14% alcohol red wine, mix 2 parts of red wine with 1 part of water and 1 part mother of vinegar. 3. Make sure the vinegar can breathe: the bacteria making vinegar need access to oxygen so make sure there are holes or an open top the vinegar can breathe through. Cover these holes or top with cheesecloth or gauze however to prevent fruit flies from getting in. Finally, the optimal temperature for vinegar growth is 80-85 degrees Fahrenheit. It will still grow fine at room temperature though. Good luck! >>>

Stefan


Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 05:40:15 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Mother of Vinegar

1.  Yes, there are different types of mother of vinegar.  Mother of vinegar 
is formed from cellulose and acetic acid bacteria.  There are thousands of 
different acetic acid bacteria which can be present.  While any of these can 
produce vinegar, using an acetic acid bacteria  that is optimized to the 
medium produces the best results.  A commercial mother should work any 
vinegar making at home, it may or may not produce the best results.

<<< 2) I hadn?t thought of the alcohol percentage being a concern before, but it makes sense. I guess you could use that vodka or bourbon to preserve your 
vegetable or fruit harvest, but I seldom hear of that now, or in period. :-)

It was done with honey and I would expect honey to be more expensive than 
alcoholic distillations in period. >>>

2.  Effective distillation begins around 1000 CE.  Production of high 
alcohol brandies doesn't take off until the 14th Century.  Probably why the 
Celts used rosin to preserve their enemies heads rather than pickling them 
in Irish whiskey.

Alcohol also dissolves sugars, reduces flavors, and softens connective 
tissue, so it might not be an appropriate method of preservation in a given 
instance.  Honey (in a low humidity environment) is actually a better 
preservative.

<<< 3) What do you get if you distill mead? >>>

3.  Honey brandy.

Bear


Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 12:26:09 -0500
From: Aruvqan <aruvqan at gmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Mother of Vinegar

On 11/20/2014 4:12 AM, Stefan li Rous wrote:
<<< Also, I can't tell if you just get one batch for each bottle of mother, or not. If so, that would make it a lot more expensive than buying "live" vinegar. >>>

Upon the Mother of Vinegar ...

Lo these many years ago, we lived in the house built by my Great 
Grandfather back in 1895. It was a lovely Victorian, with18 rooms, a 
full finished attic and a full basement. In the basement was a vinegar 
barrel, that one dumped 40 or 45 gallons of apple cider in every fall, 
and about a month later could start tapping out cider vinegar. As long 
as you did not tap out the last two or three gallons, you had a lovely 
tart vinegar. If you took the top off the barrel off, there was a white 
sort of cthulhuan mass floating around. This was the Mother. As long as 
you feed her cider [or wine, if that is your pleasure, but in a 
different barrel please] you get out vinegar. It is the gift that keeps 
on giving, like those little yeast friends of the eternal loaves of 
bread, or really good Belgian beers.

So yes at one point in time until the barrel accidentally got let dry 
out and a mouse nibbled its way in through the side I had vinegar that 
was theoretically started in 1895. [The barrel died about 20 years ago, 
before I could manage to get to my grandparents cottage and steal it 
from the new owners =( ]

So in answer to your question, the little mother will keep on turning 
fresh liquid into vinegar as long as you keep feeding it. I would 
recommend getting one o those 2 gallon clear jugs with the little tap in 
the bottom, place it in view proudly and keep putting apple juice or a 
specific color and type of wine in, and tap it off a couple cups at a 
time all year long. Keep your 'use' vinegar in a lovely cut crystal 
cruet and enjoy.


Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 13:04:23 -0500 (EST)
From: "Daniel And elizabeth phelps " <dephelps at embarqmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Mother of Vinegar

Hmmm...the mother in my vinegar is a cloudy translucent mass floating near the bottom of the bottle.


Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 14:31:27 +0000
From: Gretchen R Beck <cmupythia at cmu.edu>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Mother of Vinegar

Wineries sometimes sell wine cultured mother -- there is a winery in Erie PA that does so (unfortunatly, it's been a few years, so I don't remember which one it was). Wine supply stores may as well.

toodles, margaret

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