vinegar-msg - 1/10/08 Vinegar in period. Making vinegar. NOTE: See also these files: Vinegar-art, Vinegar-NJFCC-art, verjuice-msg, yeasts-msg, wine-msg, beer-msg, pickled-foods-msg, salads-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: rhayes at powerup.com.au (Robin Hayes) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Vinegar - was Yeasts was: 14th Century Bread Date: 3 Mar 1997 03:34:29 GMT Father Gregory of apospirit at sprintmail.com says... >MamaMoose1 wrote: >> I've never heard of a yeast (wild or tame) that produced vinegar. That's >> usually produced by another organism contaminating the product. >> >> - A'isha al-Aneed > >I came in at the end of this thread so I risk looking like a bigger >idiot than I am normally. It is my understanding that vinegar is a by >product from the oxidation of alcohol. I will try to research this >further. Since yeast decoposes suagr in to alcohol and carbon dioxide, >in an indirect way; you could claim that yeast is responsible. Previous discussion in this thread has covered the fermentation process of sugars to alcohol. generalised equation for fermentation. C6H12O6 + yeast -> 2 C2H5-OH + Co2 sugar to alcohol and carbon dioxide The yeast acts to obtain energy for its own growth by the reaction, the alcohol being a waste product as far as the organism is concerned. Hence the joke that a fermented product is "dead bugs in bug poo juice"... :-) If you obtain a good quality "organic" style apple cider vinegar (or any other vinegar such as malt or wine) you often get the "mother of vinegar" for the vinegar in the product. Indeed this is considered a bonus, as it proves the viinegar to still be "alive". Wine fanciers often have a container covered with a clean cloth into which they pour the dregs of even their quality wines, which then ferment into great vinegar. I have misplaced some of my reference books at the moment, but vinegar used to be a more common product for sale in England during period than wine, in types of style of vinegar offered vs wine. Vinegar merchants were more plrntiful than wine merchants. Wine kept in casks, tends to go to vinegar fairly quickly. Wine imported from Europe to england was sloshed around in the barrels, promoting the mixing of air, which speeds the vinegar generation process. Basically CH2CHOH + O2 + Bacteria -> CH3CO-OH + H2O alcohol + oxygen + Bacteria -> Acetic acid + water The bacterium is an "acetobacter", and acts to obtain energy for its own growth by the reaction, thus "dead bugs in sour bug poo juice" I suppose... :-) Prior to 1800, the best known commercial vinegar producing method was called the Orleans method, which took 3-4 months to process a barrel of about 50 galls, but this was in still conditions on land. As the process normally takes place only at the air/liquid surface (because of need to get sufficient air into the liquid), thrashing the contents of the cask around while bringing it over from France, or further by ship, speeds up the process enormously. Bouncing it around on the back of a cart or pack animals would help too. Later out of period processes also sped things up by enabling more air to be put into the liquid easily. Indeed the problem with wine in period was to stop it going off (note Biblical references to new wine/old wine), which was not easily accomplished without bottling, or special sealed storage jars, and the sealant was a problem before cork was used late in period. Keeping it in barrels is risky, especially since the science (or is that art:-) of the time didn't understand things the way we do now. Robin -- rhayes at powerup.com.au http://www.powerup.com.au/~rhayes/ From: Tom Brady <tabrady at mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 08:34:50 -0400 Subject: Re: SC - Vinegar At 04:33 PM 4/15/97 +1000, Fiona Porteous asked: >Is balsamic vinegar a. period and b. appropriate to any use here? (Is that >champagne vinegar?) I just took a quick cruise around the web to see what I could find. At the web site of Alessi, one of the larger commercial balsamic vinegar producers, they say (at http://www.vigo.com/BALSAMIC.htm): "Balsamic vinegar has been made for hundreds of years. It originated in the Modena region of Italy, and until recently only those regions were privileged to experience its delights. It is recorded that in 1046 A.D., Boniface, marquis of Bologna, made a gift of Balsamic Vinegar to Henry III, the Holy Roman Emperor. Like in wine making, each family had their own special recipe. The Balsamic Vinegar was aged up to 25 years or more, and sometimes spiced with herbs and seasonings. " Take this as you will - remember, though, that foods with a long history make for great marketing. Balsamic vinegar (or aceto balsamico, if you prefer) is most certainly not the same thing as champagne vinegar. The latter, obviously is made from champagne, which is allowed (or encouraged) to turn to vinegar. According to the web site of Master Choice (http://www.masterchoice.com/vinegar.htm), another commercial balsamic vinegar producer, the traditional production goes like this: "After pressing, the juices of the trebbiano and lambrusco grapes that are typical to the Emilia-Romagna region are blended and boiled over fire, and then poured into barrels of oak, chestnut, cherry, mulberry and ash. For years, the juice ages, ferments and condenses naturally, gradually transforming into vinegar. Every year, the liquid is mixed with younger vinegars and placed in a series of smaller and smaller barrels. The vinegar absorbs much of its aroma from the oak and its color from the chestnut. Then after five years, the vinegar is bottled." That's the theory, anyway. Sadly, much of the cheap balsamic vinegar on the market today is basically red wine vinegar cut with small amounts of balsamic vinegar (not unlike Kona coffee, for instance, which sometimes has as little as 3% Kona beans). You can get the traditionally made stuff, but if you paid less than $15-20/bottle for it, it's probably cut with red wine vinegar. Mind you, this doesn't mean that the cheap stuff isn't fine to use, if you like it. Heck, I use the cheap stuff 'cause I can't afford to pay twenty bucks for vinegar. Just understand what it is. - -Duncan, who recommends a dessert of fresh strawberries in balsamic vinegar - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tom Brady tabrady at mindspring.com SCA: Duncan MacKinnon of Tobermory From: zarlor at acm.org (Lenny Zimmermann) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 16:02:09 GMT Subject: SC - Balsamic Vinegar and Verjuice Someone had mentioned a while back on the list that they wanted to know when the use of Balsamic vinegar came about. I hate to say that I have no idea myself, but I sure would love to know! I don't always find that sour juice is easy to come by, and wouldn't have been easy to get at certain times of the year in a Medeival/Renaissance household. As such I usually substitute about half of what I would use in Verjuice as a red wine vinegar and fortify the other half with at least a 4 year old Balsamic vinegar (preferably the 20 year old stuff, but that can be pretty darn expensive!) For those of you who may not know, many of the balsamic vinegars you find in the stores, especially the cheaper ones, are not barrel-aged at all, but chemically aged and flavored to approximate true balsamic vinegar. If you ever feel like spending the money for it, I HIGHLY recommend trying a truly aged balsamic vinegar, preferably over 10 years old. I could just about eat it with a spoon, it is so sweet with a nice tang to it. One of my favorite ingredients. I'll let everyone know if I find out anything and I would certainly love to hear if anyone else has found out anything about how long balsamic vinegar has been around. Honos Servio, Lionardo Acquistapace, Barony of Bjornsborg, Ansteorra (mka Lenny Zimmermann, San Antonio, TX) zarlor at acm.org From: Uduido at aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 18:47:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: SC - Balsamic Vinegar and Verjuice << Someone had mentioned a while back on the list that they wanted to know when the use of Balsamic vinegar came about. I hate to say that I have no idea myself, but I sure would love to know! >> The current issue of Wine Spectator has a feature story on Balsmaic vinegars. Lord Ras From: "Sharon L. Harrett" <afn24101 at afn.org> Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 02:20:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SC - Goat Cheese <snip> Ceridwen P.S. Oh, and BTW, I found the method for making vinegar... its the last entry on the page from the "Old Icelandic Medical Miscellany" in His Grace's Collection!!!!!! Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 22:30:57 -0500 From: mtraber at juno.com (marilyn i traber) Subject: Re: SC -cider vinegar >Ok, dear, I'll bite- how about directions/recipe for making cider >vinegar. Thanks, Angelique well, start with a hundred year old cider barrel, lol actually, most apple cider[not pasteurized juice-gak] if left in the back of the fridge will turn on its own. normally it takes what is called mother-of-vinegar, which is a mass of microbal growth, place it in a clean sterilized jar and add cider, sort of like brewing cyser using a culture from a previous batch rather that dried commercial yeastbeasties. I seem to remember that you can get mother of vinegar from brewing supply stores and the wine and cake hobby shop in norfolk virginia. it takes about a month to turn out a nice young vinegar, though it mellows out with age. basically what I do is tap out a quart or so and replace it with fresh pressed cider and make sure that i take out what i will need for the next month or so. margali Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 23:55:31 EST From: CorwynWdwd at aol.com Subject: Re: SC -cider vinegar > i seem to remember that you can get mother of vinegar from brewing supply > stores and the wine and cake hobby shop in norfolk virginia. OR you can maybe get some unpasturised cider vinegar from a health food store and add it to hard cider. The "mother" will form, converting the alcohol to asetic (sp?) acid... aka vinegar. Done it several times now. New vinegar is sharp, I cut the stuff with water to taste. Corwyn Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 14:03:34 +0000 From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net> Subject: Re: SC - Vinegar And it came to pass on 1 Feb 98, that Anne-Marie Rousseau wrote: > Here's a thought...what types of vinegar do you think go with > English food, vs French food, vs the Eastern corpus? Or German? or > Spanish? > > Chiquart specifies red wine vinegar in his shopping lists. Is this > because being Savoiard, this is the type he could get? Would an > English cook use malt vinegar, ie fermenting the easier to get beer, > rather than the imported wine? Anne Wilson in _Food and Drink in Britain_ says that wine was produced locally in medieval times. The Domesday Book records 40 vineyards in southern England. The vineyard at the monastary at Ely produced so much verjuice that the excess had to be sold off. When cheap and plentiful wine from Gascony in France began to be imported during the reign of Henry II, the English wine industry started to decline. The Wars of the Roses aggravated the situation, as did the dissolution of the monasteries under Henry VIII, since so many of the vineyards were attached to religious houses. "Vinegar" made from beer is more properly called alegar. Wilson feels that it may have been introduced as early as Roman times. Around the 17th century, alegar began to take the place of verjuice in pickles and sauces, and began to usurp the name "vinegar", previously only applied to wine-based products. Although other kinds of vinegar were still made, malt vinegar became the most common. So it looks to me as though both wine vinegar and malt vinegar would be appropriate for period British cooking. Lady Brighid ni Chiarain of Tethba Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom mka Robin Carroll-Mann *** harper at idt.net Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 14:07:03 +0000 From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net> Subject: Re: SC - Vinegar And it came to pass on 1 Feb 98, that Anne-Marie Rousseau wrote: > Here's a thought...what types of vinegar do you think go with > English food, vs French food, vs the Eastern corpus? Or German? or > Spanish? After discussing English vinegars, I forgot to mention the Spanish ones. The "Libro de Guisados" mentions vinegar and verjuice, though it does not IIRC specify what type of wine they are made from. The more common souring ingredients are the juice of sour oranges, lemon juice, and pomegranate juice. Lady Brighid ni Chiarain of Tethba Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom mka Robin Carroll-Mann *** harper at idt.net Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 18:28:46 -0500 From: dangilsp at intrepid.net (Dan Gillespie) Subject: SC - Spanish souring agents Hello from Sylvan Glen: Lady Brighid said: >> Here's a thought...what types of vinegar do you think go with >> English food, vs French food, vs the Eastern corpus? Or German? or >> Spanish? > >After discussing English vinegars, I forgot to mention the Spanish >ones. The "Libro de Guisados" mentions vinegar and verjuice, though >it does not IIRC specify what type of wine they are made from. The >more common souring ingredients are the juice of sour oranges, lemon >juice, and pomegranate juice. > >Lady Brighid ni Chiarain of Tethba >Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom >mka Robin Carroll-Mann *** harper at idt.net It is rather interesting that you say that sour citrus juices were used more often as souring agents in the "Libro de Guisados". The opposite situation is true in the "Arte de Cozina" some 70 or 80 years later. Verjuice & vinegar seem to be used pretty much interchangeably in most recipes, although some recipes mention only one or the other; there are lots of recipes that call for one, the other or either. Sour orange juice is a somewhat common as a souring agent & lemon juice is much less so. Lime juice is called for once or twice. Pomegranite juice is not used at all. Take care, Antoine Dan Gillespie dangilsp at intrepid.net Dan_Gillespie at usgs.gov Martinsburg, West Virginia, USA Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 23:07:20 +0000 From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net> Subject: Re: SC - Spanish souring agents And it came to pass on 2 Feb 98, that Dan Gillespie wrote: > It is rather interesting that you say that sour citrus juices were > used more often as souring agents in the "Libro de Guisados". The > opposite situation is true in the "Arte de Cozina" some 70 or 80 > years later. Verjuice & vinegar seem to be used pretty much > interchangeably in most recipes, although some recipes mention only > one or the other; there are lots of recipes that call for one, the > other or either. Sour orange juice is a somewhat common as a > souring agent & lemon juice is much less so. Lime juice is called > for once or twice. Pomegranite juice is not used at all. > Take care, Antoine ::sigh:: That's what I get for relying on my faulty memory, rather than double-checking. My recollection of the commonness of citrus juices is based mostly on the fish section of the "Libro". In looking over the rest of the recipes, vinegar and verjuice appear more often than citrus, and rather more often than I remembered. The vinegar, incidently, is generally specified to be white. I'll just pull the hole in after me... Lady Brighid ni Chiarain of Tethba Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom mka Robin Carroll-Mann *** harper at idt.net From: dwbutler at mtu.edu (Daniel W. Butler-Ehle) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Verjuice Date: 2 May 1998 11:38:00 -0400 Organization: Michigan Technological University Karl A Haefner (RENAISSANCE-COOK at prodigy.net) wrote: : In two references, I've found that verjuice is a vinegar made from crab : apples. There are also suggestions on what to use as a replacement, such as : cider vinegar with lemon juice added. : : My quest ==> I would like to find either a procedure for making of vinegars : so that I could produce my own crab apple vinegar or a source for purchasing : crab apple vinegar from. : : I have NEVER come across a book on making vinegar. Mayhaps I am searching : incorrectly. (Looking for verjuice in all the wrong places.) Try a homebrew supplies store. There's a small book "Making Homemade Vinegars" (no, that's not it...never mind the name) by Romanowski. You'll also need a mother-of-vinegar culture (preferably for cider vinegar rather than wine or malt). Ulfin From: Glenn David White <gdw0001 at jove.acs.unt.edu> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Verjuice Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 03:00:16 -0500 Organization: University of North Texas I'm pretty sure the Frug (you know...Jeff Smith...the Frugal Gourmet) does wine vinegars in his "The Frugal Gourmet Cooks With Wine". I don't have the book at hand so I can't check my facts. -Glenn Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 21:48:11 EDT From: melc2newton at juno.com Subject: SC - Fish and Vinegar I was looking thro' _Herbal Vinegar_by Maggie Oster for Christmas gift ideas, and in the history (without documentation) section, she mentions that... "By the thirteenth century, a wide selection of vinegars - including those flavored with clove,chicory, fennel, ginger, truffle, raspberry, mustard, and garlic- was commonly sold by street vendors in Paris. Pepper vinegar was especially popular during the Middle Ages because wine that contained pepper was not taxed on importation into Paris." Now were could I start to justify this statement (preferably in English translation)? Has anyone else run across this pepper vinegar in French sources? Beatrix Oakheart/Calontir Springfield, MO Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 15:18:26 -0600 From: vjarmstrong at aristotle.net (Valoise Armstrong) Subject: Re: SC - Flavored Vinegars Christianna asked: >A fellow in my group asked me last night about period recipies for >flavored vinegars. Any ideas? Looking through Rumpolt's Das New Kochbuch I found a flavored vinegar I'd never seen before Wenn man gedoerrten Meerrettichwurzeln pulverisiert in Essig thut/ macht jn bald scharpff. When one puts pulverized dried horseradish in vinegar it makes it sharp before long. Sabina Welser also has a vinegar recipe on kind of a large scale: Take a jug into which can hold twenty quarts and spread it with pitch, next take two pounds of tartar and pound it small and put it into the jug, take four ginger roots, some thirty or thirty-two peppercorns, take fourteen quarts of good vinegar and pour it in the jug, take six quarts of good wine and bring it to a boil and skim it off. Afterwards let it cool somewhat and pour it into the jug and let it stand for four weeks. See that you do not stir it up, then it will be good and keep well. Has anyone ever tried to make vinegar from wine or beer? I've seen several recipes that call for hanging a cloth bag of sourdough in the wine or beer and letting it ferment, but I don't have any sour dough starter right now so I haven't given it a try. Valoise Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 22:13:00 EST From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Flavored Vinegars THLRenata at aol.com writes: << And it just so happens that I have all three of those spices and was wondering what to do with them! Recipes, please? Renata >> Wondering what to do with them? Surely, you jest, m'lady. Almost the entire extant collection of recipes from the middle ages call for the use of these spices. :-0 On the chance you were referring to vinegar recipes, I collect unusual shaped botttles with corks like those available at boutiques or dollar stores. Put a teaspoon or so of cubebs or grains or galegal chips in each bottle (1 inch sections if your galengal is whole). Fill the bottle with your favorite vinegar (red or white wine vinegar or apple cider vinegar). Stopper them firmly and store at room temperature for 6 to 8 weeks. Mixed with olive/veggie oil, herbs, etc. as per the standard vinaigrette dressing recipe, they make excellent dressings for green salads. :-) Hope this helps. Ras Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 12:56:19 -0500 From: Ceridwen <ceridwen at ccgnv.net> Subject: Re: SC - Flavored Vinegars > Has anyone ever tried to make vinegar from wine or beer? I've seen several > recipes that call for hanging a cloth bag of sourdough in the wine or beer > and letting it ferment, but I don't have any sour dough starter right now > so I haven't given it a try. Done both, with better success with wines than beers. I got a "vinegar mother" from a local brew supply store. They are available in red, white, and malt varieties. You can also use a bit of "natural" (meaning not distilled) vinegar to start a batch from either wine or beer. Try finding those at a health food store. The truly natural way is to let the wine or beer sit in the open, uncovered for a couple days until it starts to have a vinegary odor, then cover it with cloth and let it mature. The vinegar-producing bacteria need air to live and reproduce so don't cap it air-tight. Keeping it warm speeds the process. It is not a fast process, taking weeks to months to produce a satisfactory product. I made a blackberry wine a couple years agos that came out *waaaaayyyy* to dry for a drinkable or even a cooking wine, and decided to try to make a vinegar from it. After the addition of the "mother" I let it sit at room temp in a gallon jug with cheesecloth over the top. In about 6 months it had become a very smooth, fruity, red wine vinegar, that is just excellent in salads. I use it in cooking also, and have made a couple of herbal/spice versions from it. It is nearly gone, and I'm wondering if I'll ever be able to reproduce it (I really need to keep a notebook). Ceridwen Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 01:34:56 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Flavored Vinegars LYN M PARKINSON wrote: > I've never heard of a beer or ale vinegar--malt vinegar, yes. Is this > from ale, you brewers out there? You sometimes see references to alegar, which is vinegar made from ale, the suffix "egar" meaning sour, as in the (I think) Old French vin aigre, or sour wine. So alegar or ale "vinegar" does indeed come from soured beer or ale. Modern malt vinegar is made a bit differently, though, because I believe it is made directly from the malt, without any need to ferment it into an alcoholic beverage first. But, chemically, it's nearly identical to alegar. Adamantius Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 14:53:24 -0500 From: "Nick Sasso" <Njs at mccalla.com> Subject: SC - Malt vinegar....not expert info Adamantius was correct in that you do not ferment your 'wort' (barley malt tea) in making vinegar. My experience has been that it makes very quickly without yeast....or in spite of it. If doing intentional malt vinegar production, I would make a wort of about 1 gallon water to 1-1.25 lbs. (U.S.) malt extract. Boil for 1 hour (more character and caramalization) and cool to room temperature as quickly and CLEANLY as practical. You can buy this at brewing stores in either liquid (like molasses) or dry. The brand and variety is variable and will produce varied results. Lllaglander is a dutch malt that is less fermentable and will likely give more malt character and residual sweetness to finished product (relatively). To this starter, I would add mother of vinegar and let 'ferment'/incubate for manufacturer's recommended time. I've not ever used mother of vinegar, but it is most likely to give you a consistant and adequate innoculation of the right bacteria. Make sure everything is scrupulously clean and sanitized all the way to adding the mother. I give again the disclaimer that this is not researched or documented, but deduced from what I know about brewing and vinegaring.......smooshed together to this post. niccolo difrancesco Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:13:45 EST From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Malt vinegar....not expert info Njs at mccalla.com writes: << I give again the disclaimer that this is not researched or documented, but deduced from what I know about brewing and vinegaring.......smooshed together to this post. niccolo difrancesco >> Actually you're pretty much right on target. Vinegars are produced from the action of bacteria not yeast. Nine times out of ten the only thing you'll get from leaving wine or ale exposed to the air is spoiled wine or ale. This may taste vinegary but is in fact sour from spoilage. Start with a base and if you want quality vinegar you add bacteria. If you want quality alcohol you add yeast. Ras Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 00:59:27 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - [fwd] [Mid] Vinegar info needed LrdRas at aol.com wrote: > > I would > >have thought more of the wine books would have had at least a > >paragraph on vinegar, but no such luck. > > > >Margaret > > That is not so unusual. Wines are made with yeast fermentation. Vinegar is > made by bacteria. What is it that you need to know? > > Ras I'm pretty sure both Platina and Gervase Markham talk about how vinegar is made. I'll check in the morning. Adamantius Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 21:29:54 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - high grain all-natural vinegar? Chip wrote: > It seems that I once heard about petroleum-derived vinegar being fairly > common, but not common knowledge. <snip> > Anybody know if there's any truth to this? > > Red wine, rice wine, malt and Balsamic for me, thanks. You forgot my two favorites, sherry and champagne. Yes, distilled white vinegar can be made from petroleum. Not all of it is, though, so it may be hard to determine based on a bottle of the stuff. On a molecular level, acetic acid is acetic acid, and since there's nothing, AFAIK, in distilled white vinegar other than acetic acid and water, I don't worry too much about it. Adamantius Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 01:15:55 -0500 From: Nick Sasso <grizly at mindspring.com> Subject: 'Faux' Wine vinegar (was Re: SC - Recipe: Sweet and Sour Lamb) a quick tip for those curious: When I do not have the white wine vinegar called for in a recipe, I use a blend of vinegar and white grape juice to approximate the flavor: 2 parts vinegar to one part juice. It is actually pretty close, and isn't hard to do if you have grape juice in the ice box. If not, a little apple juice will do in a pinch for apple 'cider' vinegar approximation. niccolo Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 07:04:16 -0700 From: Anne-Marie Rousseau <acrouss at gte.net> Subject: Re: SC - Pleyn Delit et al-vinegar Hey all from Anne-Marie Clothilde and Allison speak on the use of vinegar in the middle ages.... I dont find that the vinegar amount in Pleyn Delit is so high...and I take the words "make it sharp with vinegar" to mean make it sharp with vinegar, ie it should have a definate twang. Now I love vinegar, and have been known to drink the good stuff straight, but 1/2 cup of vinegar for 8 people is nothing in my experience. And I ALWAYS test my recipes for group consumption on someone who isnt as much a vinegar hound as me just to be sure. Much depends on the type of vinegar yoiu're using....I only use white distilled vinegar for cleaning my fridge, and save the yummy cider vinegar or red wine vinegar or balsamic for cooking. THose have a lot less sour power per unit used. Dishes that use vinegar and you can taste it (other than egredouce/soubriquet) include the paste en pot/civee de veau, Civee d'oeufs, , most of the medieval sauces (consisting of vinegar and herbs, vinegar and spices, etc, mustard and mustard based sauces), le menagier's sauce for chicken ("half vinegar, half rosewater, and chilled, etc. Item, orange-juice is good.") aceteria (a 17-18th century treatise on veggies) has a whole article on it, all of the salats of course use vinegar, and Apicius uses vinegar almost as much as he uses liquimen and pepper (mmmm...chicken sour......:)). Even wardyns in syrop have a "lytil venegre". Now, lots of these specify vinegar or verjuice. Verjuice (in my experience) can range from VERY ascerbic to a gentle bit of pucker. Its possible that Redon and Hieatt, in an effort to make the ingredients more "safeway friendly" have changed out all the verjuice for vinegar, and that's why youre getting more vinegar than you care for. And one of the neat things about reconstructing medieval recipes is that they DONT give amounts, and so you can play with amounts on ingredients you dont care for (to a degree, anyway). The medieval palette of flavors in my experience is sour and spicey...a stew of vinegar, poudre forte. Sure, thre are dishes that dont use this palette but my interpretation is that they LIKED these flavors, at least according to the number of dishes that come out this way. Where the cooks skill can come in is in menu design so that the whole meal doesnt come off as monochromatic. Have a dish of civee de veau, but contrast it with funges and frumenty, buttered worts, and an apple krapfen. The bright flavors of the sour and spicey stew will come across as a high note, with the others being accompanyments. all will end up augmented. at least this is my opinion, - --Anne-Marie, a notorious vinegar hound, who has to have several people test her recipes and review her menus to make sure they're balanced :) Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 20:39:45 -0500 From: Magdalena <magdlena at earthlink.net> Subject: Re: SC - Eggs graven with Vinegar Morgan Cain wrote: > As for the kinds, they did not, to my knowledge, have distilled white vinegar as do we. Actually, Plat has a section on distilling vinegar. I'm not familiar with the modern method, so I can't tell you how it compares, but he suggests using a glass vessel instead of the lead or pewter ones commonly used for distilling vinegar. - -Magdalena Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 05:32:48 EDT From: CorwynWdwd at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Eggs graven with Vinegar morgancain at earthlink.net writes: > Probably they could not figure out how necessarily it happened. They knew how it happened, they just couldn't stop it. Neither can we without stringent sanitation, which is why you have a pickle crock and a brewing crock and never the twain will meet if you're smart. Some people don't even have their vinegar mother working in the same room as their wines and beer, and some people won't have it in their house at all. >I know there is "mother of vinegar" which may be one of those bacterial clumps, >used to start the vinegar. And my Etymological OED version talks of vinegar >as being produced by a form of fermentation ("acetous"). Vinegar can be made from any dilute alcohol, which makes wine and beer ideal for the purpose. we keep the vessels we make said potables in sealed to prevent contamination form the air and fruit fly like creatures we refer to as "vinegar flies" from getting to our brew and infecting it with acetic acid bacteria. I too have seen numerous recipes on how to use wine or beer that has gone to vinegar, which is a completely natural process. I too will be looking for examples shortly. Don't expect it quickly though, lots of other projects in the offing. Yes, sometimes it turned to something vile, but like people who can make sourdough bread easily in their own kitchen, there are some people who have the requisite bacteria present in their own homes to make vinegar. If they take up home brewing then they find this out very quickly. No doubt there were people in period that learned that if you put vinegar mother into a wine you got vinegar eventually, and started an industry. There were just as many people that were dismayed when they found vinegar mother growing in their potables I imagine, and cookbook writers to tell them what to do with it. Corwyn Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 22:07:39 EDT From: CorwynWdwd at aol.com Subject: Re: SC -making vinegar kareno at lewistown.net writes: > So, if I want to make some (a little) wine vinegar for a particulr > recipe, I can just mix some of the wine I would like to use with distilled > vinegar, and let it sit "a while?" > > My thinking is in a closed canning jar overnight. > > Caointiarn Nope, but you can buy vinegar mother, or better yet, buy unpasteurized vinegar in a health food store and add to the wine. Be sure to expose it to air, perhaps use cheesecloth or some other mesh netting to cover to keep flies out. Distilled vinegar is right out by definition, not only has it been pasteurized, and is therefore free of mother, it's been distilled and watered, it's pretty much just dilute acetic acid. You need the live stuff my friend.. :-) Overnight? more like a week or two... try it after you see the slimy cover of the mother form on top and you'll know when it's ready. Corwyn Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 03:56:22 EDT From: CorwynWdwd at aol.com Subject: Re: SC -making vinegar (longish) stefan at texas.net writes: > Well, a bit longer than overnight. One of the period ways to speed things > up was apparently to put the vinegar-to-be barrels on board ship and > ship them somewhere. Makes sense.. the motion of the ship would probably aerate the wine a bit, speeding the mother along. Nowadays in factory production of vinegar we actually pump the stuff over the mother on big aeration racks, over and over again. Speeds the process up immeasurably. Perhaps my own poor efforts on vinegar making aren't clear though. After a quick and dirty websearch I found this, it might help. It's from the Ohio State University Extension site. While it deals with cider vinegar, wine vinegar can be made the same way. There are brewing supply places that sell vinegar mother, but I have had NO trouble getting started with unpasteurized vinegar from a health food store. The Ohio State University Extension Human Nutrition 1787 Neil Avenue, Columbus, OH 43212 - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Making Cider Vinegar at Home HYG-5346-97 Two factors require special attention when making vinegar at home: oxygen supply and temperature. Oxygen is spread throughout the mixture by stirring it daily and by letting air reach the fluid through a cheesecloth filter, which is used in place of a regular lid. The temperature of fermenting cider should be kept between 60 and 80 degrees Fahrenheit (F). Lower temperatures do not always produce a usable vinegar, and higher ones interfere with the formation of the "mother of vinegar." Mother of vinegar is a mat that forms on the bottom of fermenting wine that has gone bad. Do not use a metal container when making vinegar; acid in the mixture will corrode metal or aluminum objects. Glass, plastic, wood, enamel, or stainless steel containers should be used for making or storing vinegar. The same holds true for making or storing foods that have more than 1 Tablespoon of vinegar in the recipe. Steps for Making Cider Vinegar The following steps must be followed to make a high-quality cider vinegar: Make a clean cider from ripe apples. Change all of the fruit sugar to alcohol. This is called "yeast fermentation." Change all of the alcohol to acetic acid. This is called "acetic acid fermentation." Clarify the acetic acid to prevent further fermentation and decomposition. Step 1--Making Cider Cider is made from the winter and fall varieties of apples (summer and green apples do not contain enough sugar). Fruit should be gathered, then washed well to remove debris. Crush the fruit to produce apple pulp and strain off the juice. Use a press or cheesecloth for straining. Adding yeast to activate fermentation is not essential, but will speed up the process. Special cultivated yeasts are available for this purpose at wine-making shops and biological labs--bread yeasts are not recommended. To make a starter, crumble one cake of yeast into one quart of cider. This makes enough starter for 5 gallons of cider; double the recipe proportionately when making more. Steps 2 and 3--Making Alcohol and Acetic Acid Pour all of the liquid into one or more containers to about three-quarters capacity; do not close the lids on the containers. Stir the mixtures daily. Keep the containers away from direct sunlight and maintain the temperature at 60 to 80 degrees F. Full fermentation will take about 3 to 4 weeks. Near the end of this period, you should notice a vinegar-like smell. Taste samples daily until the desired strength is reached. Step 4--Filtering When the vinegar is fully fermented, filter the liquid through several layers of fine cheesecloth or filter paper--a coffee filter works well for this. This removes the mother of vinegar, preventing further fermentation or spoilage of the product. Storing Your Vinegar The vinegar is now ready for storage in separate, capped containers. Stored vinegar will stay in excellent condition almost indefinitely if it is pasteurized. To pasteurize, heat the vinegar before pouring it into sterilized bottles, or bottle, then place in a hot water bath. In both cases, the temperature of the vinegar must reach at least 140 degrees F to sterilize the product, and should not exceed 160 degrees F. Use a cooking thermometer to ensure the correct temperature is met. Cool the containers and store at room temperature out of direct sunlight. Flavored Vinegar Flavoring can be added to homemade vinegar just before bottling. Good examples of additives include green onion, garlic, ginger, or any combination of dried or fresh herbs. To make flavoring, place material in a small cheesecloth bag and suspend in the vinegar until desired strength is reached. This will take about 4 days, except for garlic, which takes only 1 day. For every 2 cups of vinegar, use one of the following: 1/2 cup crushed fresh herbs, 1 tablespoon of dried herbs, 2 large cloves of garlic, or 8 small green onions. Other good flavorings include tarragon, basil, nasturtium, chives, mint, chervil, borage, hot chilies, and raspberries. Adjust the amounts to taste, but be careful not to overload the vinegar. Too much vegetable matter can destroy the acid and ruin the preservative quality of the vinegar. Some flavorings may not go well with cider vinegar's distinct taste and color. When flavoring store-bought vinegar, use more delicate or decorative flavors. When flavoring store-bought vinegar, you will still need to pasteurize it and use sterile bottles. Flavored vinegars taste great and have a beautiful color, making them excellent for use in salads. You will be tempted to display flavored vinegar; however, be sure to keep your bottles out of direct sunlight, which will destroy the flavor, acidity, and color of the vinegar. Uses for Homemade Cider Vinegar Because the acidity of homemade vinegars will vary, do not use them in foods to be canned or stored at room temperature. Homemade vinegar is, however, excellent in salads, cooking, or freezer and refrigerator pickled products. Prepared by Christine Nicholas, Intern Doris Herringshaw, Extension Agent, Family and Consumer Sciences Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 12:40:41 -0500 From: "Michael F. Gunter" <michael.gunter at fnc.fujitsu.com> Subject: SC - Non-Member submission from Luanne Bartholomew From http://www.nowheat.com/fooddb/food/vinegar.htm Distilled vinegar is not distilled. The name merely means that it is made from distilled alcohol. This is done in a fermentation process in which the fermenting bacteria, a species of Acetobacter, oxidizes the added alcohol to acetic acid. The fermentation mixture is filtered and diluted to give an acetic acid concentration of about 5%. This is vinegar. It does contain nitrogenous material which is in part derived from the nutrient mixture added to the fermentation in order to keep the Acetobacter growing, and in part from those bacteria that die and disintegrate during the fermentation. This acetic fermentation is common to all vinegars so that they all contain the same kinds of nitrogenous 'contaminants', although in differing amounts. ...[T]he ethyl alcohol from which [distilled vinegar] is made is distilled from a yeast fermentation mixture. (In the UK, however, I believe that 'distilled vinegar' has a different meaning, that it is made from malt and that it is in fact, distilled.) In most of the world, molasses, which can be fermented directly by yeast, is the major source of alcohol. Alcohol is also made synthetically from petroleum products but I do not believe that alcohol from this source is much used in the food industry. In the U.S., starches derived from grains are the major source, mostly (about 85%) from corn. End quote. Hope this helps. Luanne Bartholomew (Amorwynne of Dalriada ... for now) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 04:13:08 -0400 From: Christine A Seelye-King <mermayde at juno.com> Subject: SC - Vinegar Well, I'm up way too late trying to finish my article for my Co-Op's newsletter, and this month's article is on vinegar. I came across some more information on the coal tar connection, and thought it might be of interest here. BTW, Stephen, the Florilegium is in my bibliography! Christianna "Vinegar can be made from anything which contains sugar or starch: fruits, grains and sugar holding beverages. Raw, unprocessed vinegar contains the cobweb-like 'mother', a microbial mat that forms the basis for the fermentation. It is rich in enzymes and minerals such as potassium, phosphorus, natural organic sodium, magnesium, sulphur, iron, copper, natural pectin and trace minerals. Distilling kills off most of these beneficial aspects of vinegar, leaving it good for cleaning, but not for health. In the late 1800s chemists learned to make acetic acid from coal tar. Manufacturers added water to reduce its strength to 5%, colored it and sold it as vinegar. Imitation vinegar is still manufactured and by law the label must state that it is diluted acetic acid. Diluted acetic acid is inexpensive and lacks the vitamins, minerals and esters found in fermented vinegar; its flavor and aroma are also inferior. However, due to its low cost, it remains one of the most popular vinegars in supermarkets today. " So, read those labels! Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 20:06:22 -0400 From: harper at idt.net Subject: Re: SC - Lucrezia in Marketland - mainly OOP - LONG <snip of verjuice info - see verjuice-msg> > Another nice thing I picked up was some great Spanish white wine vinegar, > distilled from Chardonnay. It is also delicious, and the Cabernet > Sauvignon version I tried was even nicer (unfortunately they'd run out, so > next time). Which led me to wonder whether they made white and red wine > vinegar in period, as I don't remember ever seeing a receipt specify the > color of the vinegar. Can anyone? Nola does, though not in every instance where he calls for vinegar. Red vinegar only appears once, and the rest of them time when he specifies, it's white vinegar. I haven't checked, but I'd guess that maybe some of the French recipes specify the color of the vinegar. Lady Brighid ni Chiarain Settmour Swamp, East (NJ) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 00:11:10 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] RE: -cran wine/vinegar... Nicolas Steenhout wrote: > I have *no* clue as to what would happen if you put a wine mother unto > mead, though I suspect it might be worth the experiment. Probably similar to what happens when you add a vinegar mother to ale... > Acquiring a mother is somewhat tricky. I have had one form naturally on > wine, once. The other two times, I borrowed part of a mother from my > father (yeah, I know...). You might want to do a web search... dunno... FWIW, Milan Brewing Labs in New York (which I mention only as an example, not to recommend them as a resource) used to sell jars of vinegar mother, oh, maybe 10 years ago. The stuff should be out there somewhere. Adamantius Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 00:33:40 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] RE: -cran wine/vinegar... Cheriti Watts wrote: > And what happens when you add a vinegar mother to ale????? It becomes vinegar. Alcohol, and, eventually, sugar, gets eaten and turned into acetic acid. Adamantius From: LrdRas at aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 09:23:46 EDT Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] RE: -cran wine/vinegar... To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org cassea at teleport.com writes: << And what happens when you add a vinegar mother to ale????? >> You get malt vinegar. Ras From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net> To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] RE: -cran wine/vinegar... Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 19:46:59 -0400 >> I have *no* clue as to what would happen if you put a wine mother unto >> mead, though I suspect it might be worth the experiment. > >Probably similar to what happens when you add a vinegar mother to ale... I did the beer trick and it turned out just fine. I had a champaign bottle of unhopped beer which had been opened to early. Had a little white wine vinegar with mother in it. The mother was the wispy cloudy filmy stuff that was neutrally buoyant in the vinegar. I poured said mothery vinegar into the beer put the cork back on and let the bottle sit for a year or so. Nice malt vinegar which, with proper documentation, I entered into A/S. Want to see the documentation? Daniel Raoul Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 05:55:53 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re:vinegar and ale Stefan li Rous wrote: > > Devra at aol.com wrote: > > > Actually, I believe what you get is alegar. (snicker--neat word, eh?) > > > Devra > > > > Technically, yes, and an excellent term it is. By that logic, though, > > rice wine vinegar, cider vinegar, and distilled white vinegar are also > > not entitled to be called vinegar. I figure if the Heinz company has the > > cojones to call it malt vinegar, I'm not going to worry. > > > > Adamantius > > Huh? What is "alegar"? I thought all of these items were vinegar? Are > you saying that only wine creates vinegar? If so, then why does > fermented rice wine not make vinegar? Or are we also saying wines can > only be from grapes? Alegar = Ale egar/eger/aigre (as in egerdouce), or sour ale Vinegar = Vin egar/eger/aigre or sour wine By distinguishing malt "vinegar" as a non-wine product (as opposed to simply a vinegar product), in other words by its origin rather than by its sour nature (a perfectly legitimate and sensible if somewhat outdated approach from a language perspective, given our use of terms like malt vinegar, rice vinegar, etc.) we then leave open reclassification of the other "vinegars" not made from wine. And these include, in addition to alegar or malt vinegar, rice vinegar (since rice "wine" is in fact an ale), cider vinegar (made from cider, which is not wine), and so forth. I guess it boils down to whether one wants to be exclusionary (exclusive?) or not. But if one does, then it has to be unilaterally. So does anybody know what the German essig is made from? is it just concentrated vinegar of whatever type is available? Adamantius Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 04:05:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Angus <angus at iamawitch.com> To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] essig was:vinegar >So does anybody know what the German essig is made from? is it just >concentrated vinegar of whatever type is available? > >Adamantius In Sweden there's something called '=C4ttika' which I believe is the same thing as the German 'Essig'. It's a water solution of acetic acid (the same acid as in vinegar) but it's made from pure alcohol (by oxidation, not bacteria) and diluted to 12 & 24% acetic acid IIRC. Vinegar is often in the 5-7% range. /Angus Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 16:11:30 -0400 From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu> To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] re: vinegars Here's an actual vinegar book if the online files aren't enough. Vinegar : The User Friendly Standard Text Reference and Guide to Appreciating, Making, and Enjoying Vinegar. by Lawrence J. Diggs. paperback. 17.95 usd. Amazon says:(This) tome tells everything the reader might want to know about vinegar: History, commercial production, vinegar making as a hobby, understanding vinegar and how it's produced, flavoring vinegar, and health benefits and medical uses. Johnna Holloway Susan Fox-Davis wrote: > Funny thing, vinegar is being discussed on the SCA-leather group as well. It > seems that if you put iron in vinegar, some steel wool pads will do, the > resultant compound makes an effective [if a bit stinky at first] black leather > dye. Vinegar, it's not just for breakfast anymore! > > Helpfully, Selene Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 10:50:47 -0500 To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org From: Gaylin Walli <iasmin at home.com> Subject: [Sca-cooks] Caointiarn's apple vinegar Caointiarn wrote: >I also started a new batch of apple wine. However, I was in a bit of a >rush before I left on vacation, and had a bit more than the 2 gallon jugs >for the 2nd fermentation, so I just put the rest in a canning jar. Came >home to white floaty stuff -- mother? as for vinegar? Smells that way. >How long does vinegar need to incubate to be vinegar? and do I need to feed >the mother? what and how often? The stuff seems happy enough, and keeping >it for my own vinegar would be way cool, I think. Assuming it's the right bacteria, then yes, you probably have the start to a very fine vinegar in the making. If the stuff is still floating on top then the vinegar is too young to do much with. But if it's on the bottom, try taking a piece of plain bread and pouring a little of the non-floaty-laden liquid on it and see how it tastes. Likely at this point it will taste a little young, more like cider or apples than vinegar. Eventually it will taste sharp like vinegar but you'll probably find that the longer you let it sit (a nice dark warm place helps) the more smooth and mellow with bite the vinegar gets. I think that once you start making your own vinegar you'll find it hard to go to the stuff they sell in the store. At least I know that I have. If you find yourself using up that cider vinegar and you're getting close to the bottom of the jar, save the last dregs with the floaty stuff and start a new batch. Try some wine or some more cider with that mother and see what happens with it. I've found that for the vinegars I've liked the best, saving the mother and using it over again has worked tremendously well. And it's a great way to get rid of those last little bits of wine that don't get drunk at parties. Many of my friends save the bottles of wine that they don't completely use up or that they don't like and give them to me for just such a use. Iasmin Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 13:33:58 -0500 From: "Louise Smithson" <smithson at mco.edu> To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Subject: [Sca-cooks] Vinegar question. The Ohio extension has a small faq on making vinegar at http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/5000/5346.html Helewyse Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 07:56:41 -0500 From: "Louise Smithson" <smithson at mco.edu> To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: rose vinegar period recipe (no redaction) long Stefan wrote: However, I have one question. The recipe talks of using "rose leaves", not "rose petals". Would this work using rose leaves? Or is the author really speaking of petals when he says "leaves"? I note that in the comments about Elderne (Elderberry?), he says "flowers" not "leaves". The way I read it we are talking about blooms here. Mainly because the recipe talks about using them before they are blown. Roses are blown when they are fully opened. And botanically they are leaves, just modified, the actual flower of a rose is that little bit down the bottom. The essential oils are all in the rose petals itself and the leaves are just, well green and nasty. What surprised me is the recipe will take all summer to prepare. Helewyse From: Etain1263 at aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 08:17:26 EST Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: rose vinegar period recipe (no redaction) long To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org smithson at mco.edu writes: > What surprised me is the recipe will take all summer to prepare. -=grin=- Ever make herbal cordials? Some infusions take more time than others. I suspect that it is the delicate nature of the rose oil that requires the amount and time. Something strongly flavored...as a mint, for example, infuse rather quickly. Etain From: "Darren Gasser" <kaos at earthlink.net> To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Just A Feast report (part 2/2: kitchen detail) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 16:23:22 -0700 Kirrily Robert wrote: > Used balsamic vinegar; not sure if that's period or not. Anyone know? Mostly yes. I can find references back to at least 1046 for the existence of balsamic vinegar, but as a medicine. It apparently became a prized culinary ingredient sometime in the 16th century, and by 1700 was in common use throughout Europe. The production method of balsamico was fairly radically revised in the mid-19th century, so modern balsamics almost certainly taste very different from their period counterparts. -Lorenz Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 08:56:45 -0400 (EDT) From: <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net> To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Sekanjabin > I have no particular competition in mind at the moment. I'm just having > a hard time finding documentation for vinegar. All I can usually find is > a refernce to the fact that they had vinegar and it was used in this or > that recipe. Hm... have you tried Plat's _Delightes for Ladies_ and Markham's _English Housewife_ (ok, I don't have either to hand right now but I know they have some recipes for vinegars and/or what to do with them.) -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa jenne at fiedlerfamily.net Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 23:12:17 -0400 To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org From: "Cindy M. Renfrow" <cindy at thousandeggs.com> Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Sekanjabin > I was looking for a period recipe for vinegar yes. I make my own and am > having problems documenting it. > > Elewyiss This is from my new transcription & translation of Liber cure Cocorum, a 15th c. cookery book in dialect & verse, from Sloane MS 1986. This is 2 recipes in one for making vinegar in a hurry. The first method uses a red hot poker dunked 9 times in strong vinegar & then in wine to sour the wine. The second method uses roasted beans, steeped in vinegar, to sour good wine. 4. To make venegur in a nede, Take a gad of stele, I wot indede; In strong venegur [th]ou schalt hit fele ix sythes in venegur, [th]er-of [th]ou rek, A-bere with [th]e hete hit [th]ou may, And in goode wyne sleck hit I say; Hit shalle be venegur, I wot hit wele, To serue at a tyme at fest or mele. And rosted benes, [th]at steped hau[e] ben, Goode wyne schalle turne to venegur bedene. 4. To make vinegar in a need, Take a goad of steel, I know indeed; In strong vinegar you shall it defile 9 times in vinegar, thereof you take care, [Make] it scream with the heat you may, And in good wine slake it I say; It shall be vinegar, I know it well, To serve at a time at feast or meal. And roasted beans, that have been steeped, Good wine shall turn to vinegar anon. (Tr. copyright 2003, Cindy Renfrow.) Cindy Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 11:32:17 -0400 To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org From: "Cindy M. Renfrow" <cindy at thousandeggs.com> Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Sekanjabin > Thank you. May I use this as a source? > Elewyiss Yes. The citation should read something like, "passage excerpted from "LIBER CURE COCORUM, a 15th-century Cookery Book in Dialect and Verse, Copied and Edited from B.L. Sloane MS. 1986, with a Modern English Translation", by Cindy Renfrow. Unpublished translation, copyright 2003. With additional notes sent by the author in an email." Cindy Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 15:42:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Christiane <christianetrue at earthlink.net> Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Good brands of vinegar To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Sharon wrote: --------------------- I have a white vinegar that I really liked that seems to have a live vinegar mother culture in it. Does anyone have people in their local groups who are into brewing and make vinegar (on purpose :-) )? I have stopped using that bottle and thought it might be fun to try and use some of it to make vinegar. However I don't know how to do this and would like to have some advice from someone with experience so there will be less risk of losing the vinegar strain. ------------------------------ You need a homemade wine without preservatives to make vinegar; if you try and use a wine with sulfites to make vinegar, you will just kill your vinegar mother. My dad's method: Take vinegar mother, put in large glass bottle with stopper that has a hole to let the gases out; add wine; put in cool, dark place; wait a week; check on vinegar strength; maybe wait longer. Pour out vinegar carefully through a coffee filter to get rid of silts and residues. When the mother gets too large, subdivide it. Red wine vinegar in my grandmother's house was made from the infamous "dago red" my grandpa made (my uncle took over winemaking duties when my grandpa died. Grandpa had built the house with a cave; it had the barrels for the wine and the barrel for the vinegar. It also had Grandpa's still, where he made the rocket fuel, um, I mean, grappa. Gianotta Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 06:49:38 -0600 From: "caoitiarn" <caointiarn1 at juno.com> Subject: [Sca-cooks] making vinegar To: "sca cooks" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> ----- Original Message ----- >> I have a white vinegar that I really liked that seems to have a live vinegar mother culture in it. Does anyonehave people in their local groups who are into brewing and make vinegar (on purpose :-) )? I have stopped using that bottle and thought it might be fun to try and use some of it to make vinegar. However I don't know how to do this and would like to have some advice from someone with experience so there will be less risk of losing the vinegar strain. >> Sharon For you Sharon, I'm sending attachments about vinegar. {one is a grouping from the Flori-thingy (tm) } You could try with what you thnk might be "mother" and you won't know if it's viable unless you do try. Vinegar can be made from anything that contains sugar or starch: fruits, grains and sugar holding beverages. Raw, unprocessed vinegar contains the gelatinous substance calld the "mother," or active acid bactar that forms the basis for the fermentation. It is rich in enzymes and minerals such as potassium, phosphorus, natural organic sodium, magnesium, sulfur, iron, copper, natural pectin and trace minerals. This is visile confirmation that vinegar is being produced. I started with such a piece from my class in making vinegar at Estrella 2002. The truly natural way is to let the wine or beer sit in the open, uncovered for a couple days until it starts to have a vinegary odor, then cover it with cloth and let it mature. The vinegar-producing bacteria need air to live and reproduce so don't cap it airtight. Keeping it warm speeds the process. It is not a fast process, taking weeks to months to produce a satisfactory product. This is how my first batch of vinegar started. I was taking some apple wine from first fermentation bucket to sealing it in airlock vessels. I ran out of room before I ran out of wine. So, I left the 3 cups in a quart-canning jar on my kitchen counter and went off for vacation for 2 weeks. I came back to find the jar contents had grown a thin, whitish gelatinous material. It smelled quite sharp, very acidic. I put it in a cupboard and started doing some research for making vinegar. However, for predictable results, and to control the process in a manner that prohibits unwanted and unfriendly yeast and bacteria, Mother {active acid bactar} should be used. Vinegar can be made from any dilute alcohol, which makes wine an beer ideal for our purpose. The percentage of acetic acid in vinegar is directly related to the percentage of alcohol used to make the vinegar. The ideal base to make vinegar should contain 5% - 7% alcohol. Thus, your choice of base needs to be diluted with water, avoiding heavily mineralized or chlorinated water. Moreover, because of added sulfites to modern wines, the wine should be left exposed to air for 24 hours/overnight before introducing the mother. Just as in other fields of brewing and fermentation, keeping everything clean and sanitized throughout the process is essential. Keep in mind that this is food. Do not use containers made from materials that react badly to acetic acid. I like to use nonporous materials such as glass containers. It may be a good precaution to not keep your vinegar mother working in the same room as your fermenting wines and beer. Some brewers won't have it in their house at all. Another precaution: once you start making vinegar in a container, especially a porous one, don't try to convert it for use in making wine, beer or cider. Making vinegar is an easy process, but one that takes patience. It takes about a week to convert 1% of alcohol to 1% acetic acid. The vinegar needs to be kept at "room temperature" {68 - 85F} for the mother to convert the alcohol to vinegar. Keep the container out of direct sunlight. The mother needs oxygen, so the container should not be air tight, or filled completely. Aerate the vinegar by gently swirling the liquid in the container every day for the first week. It may take up to 6 weeks before you see a thin film forming on top of the vinegar. This new mother will grow across the top of the vinegar and can become 1/2 inch thick within two weeks. Swirling will have the mother fall to the bottom, but that's okay. If the alcohol to acetic acid is unfinished, more mother will form. After a month's time, taste the vinegar. If it suits your palate, strain it through cheesecloth into bottles and cap or cork them. If you plan to keep your vinegar for an extended period of time, you may want to pasteurize it by a simple hot water bath of at least 140F, but not hotter than 160F. Caointiarn {currently "making" a nice white & burgundy vinegar} Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 07:47:06 -0500 From: Stephen Bloch <sbloch at adelphi.edu> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sekanjabin Origins now vinegar To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Elewyiss wrote: >> I don't suppose you know of a period cookbook with an actual recipe >> for vinegar? I'm still having trouble documenting it. to which Elizabeth or David replied: > You want a recipe for vinegar? Vinegar normally shows up as an > ingredient. Channeling the author (Douglas Adams?) who said "flying is the art of falling on the ground and missing," vinegar is basically failed wine; literally "vin aigre", or sour wine. More precisely, wine is normally fermented in the presence of very little oxygen, so the yeast is forced into its anaerobic metabolic mode, which produces alcohol as a waste product; in the presence of oxygen, the yea