verjuice-msg - 1/17/08 Medieval verjuice. Modern sources and substitutions. NOTE: See also these files: vinegar-msg, wine-msg, sauces-msg, murri-msg, garum-msg, broths-msg, beer-in-food-msg, beer-msg, fruit-citrus-msg, cider-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: Uduido at aol.com To: sca-cooks at eden.com Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:13:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: sca-cooks Re: [ck] introduction << Have any of you tried naturally fermented cider vinegar as verjuice? Do we have any sources that say regular apples were always/occasionally/never used? >> I have made verjuice from crab apple juice for 3 yrs. now. Used in pork recipes mundanely and in any recipe from period calling for it has always had positive results. There is some disagreement on what it was exactly but the crab apple and green grape people seem to be the logical winners. Green grapes were not the kind you find in the supermarket but were rather unripened grapes. The crab apples were the ones used in apple jelly. Hard to find now a days but some old homesteads still have them. Ornamental crabapples can be used to make a useable product. Simply run them through a food processor or crush. Add water to cover. Place a cheese cloth over them to keep out insects and ferment for 3-4 days. Strain and squeeze juice from pulp. Can in mason jars or bottle in beer bottles and cap. Lord Ras the Reformer From: "Philip W. Troy" <troy at asan.com> To: sca-cooks at eden.com Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 19:53:29 -0400 Subject: Re: sca-cooks Re: [ck] introduction Uduido at aol.com wrote: > I have made verjuice from crab apple juice for 3 yrs. now. Used in pork > recipes mundanely and in any recipe from period calling for it has always had > positive results. There is some disagreement on what it was exactly but the > crab apple and green grape people seem to be the logical winners. Green > grapes were not the kind you find in the supermarket but were rather > unripened grapes. The crab apples were the ones used in apple jelly. Hard to > find now a days but some old homesteads still have them. Ornamental > crabapples can be used to make a useable product. > > Simply run them through a food processor or crush. Add water to cover. Place > a cheese cloth over them to keep out insects and ferment for 3-4 days. Strain > and squeeze juice from pulp. Can in mason jars or bottle in beer bottles and > cap. > > Lord Ras the Reformer Recipe is in Gervase Markham's "The English Housewife". Made pretty much like cider, but from crabapples. Adamantius From: Uduido at aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 22:27:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: SC - Vinegar/verjuice In a message dated 97-06-04 15:00:30 EDT, you write: << Can anyone provide me with documentation on the methods of making vinegar or verjuice in period? >> I just put crabapple juice in bottles and when it stops its spitty sputtery thing I cap it. Lord Ras From: "Martin G. Diehl" <mdiehl at nac.net> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 22:45:16 -0400 Subject: Re: SC - Vinegar/verjuice Sharon L. Harrett wrote: > Can anyone provide me with documentation on the methods of > making vinegar or verjuice in period? I have many references to > their use, but none on their manufacture. > > Ceridwen Greetings to m'Lady Ceridwen, One of my cookbooks "Renaissance Recipes (Painters and Food)" by Gillian Riley, pub: Pomegranate Artbooks, ISBN: 1-56640-577-7 , 96 pages, hbk. gives some information on verjuice and several recipes use it. [Partial quote] Verjuice: in Italian cooking is, in its simplest form, the juice of sour green grapes, used as a condiment or cooking medium. It can be boiled and fermented, and used throughout the year. The equivalent in English cookery ... sour gooseberries, plums, or acidic herbs such as sorrel. ... The book suggests that bitter orange (found in the Spanish foods section of a large supermarket) could be used as a substitute. One recipe that was given was Chicken with Verjuice, "Amorsa" 1 medium chicken, jointed 4 oz. pancetta 1 lb. sour green grapes, gooseberries, or unripe green plums fresh mint and parsley, chopped salt, freshly ground black pepper, saffron to taste Fry the chicken joints and diced bacon in olive oil until golden and half cooked. Crush the grapes and strain through a sieve into a casserole. Add the chicken; stir well to dissolve the brown bits and simmer until tender. Season with black pepper and saffron, check salt (pancetta may provide enough). Serve sprinkled with chopped herbs. Alas, although this lovely book does have a bibliography, specific references are not given for each recipe. I am, Vinchenzio Martinus di Mazza, - -- Martin G. Diehl From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com> Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 00:57:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: SC - Vinegar/verjuice According to a (modern) persian cookbook of Jaella's that I was reading while visiting D.C., verjuice is made from green grapes which are picked in order to thin the bunches so that the remaining grapes will turn out better. Unfortunately, it didn't describe the fermentation process. I should check the (crabapple based) recipe in Robert May. One of the grape vines I planted a year and a half ago has lots of bunches on it. David/Cariadoc From: Robin Hackett <robin.hackett at wadsworth.org> Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:28:35 -0500 Subject: Re: SC - Vinegar/verjuice Ceridwen, Vincenzio wrote: >One of my cookbooks "Renaissance Recipes (Painters and Food)" by >Gillian Riley, pub: Pomegranate Artbooks, ISBN: 1-56640-577-7 , >96 pages, hbk. gives some information on verjuice and several recipes >use it. > >[Partial quote] Verjuice: in Italian cooking is, in its simplest >form, the juice of sour green grapes, used as a condiment or cooking >medium. It can be boiled and fermented, and used throughout the >year. The equivalent in English cookery ... sour gooseberries, plums, >or acidic herbs such as sorrel. ... This is the definition we used to make our own. Emerson has this grape vine he won't let me chop down in the yard (he wants to make a trellis complete with statuary, but thats another topic!:)) that produced all of two bunches of grapes last year. So I got to experiment with them! We simmered the unripe grapes (test by tasting...very tart!) with a little water to prevent sticking or burning. Simmered long enough to burst the grapes. Then strained them through a cheesecloth lined strainer into a bowl, overnight. Don't press the grapes, you want the verjuice to be as clear as possible. We used it fresh so didn't go to any lengths to ferment it. Leri robin.hackett at wadsworth.org Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 19:02:18 +0000 From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net> Subject: Re: SC - extraneous misc. And it came to pass on 4 Sep 97, that Marisa Herzog wrote: >I wish I could find where I had seen bitter orange listed as > a probable verjuice source In various recipes in the _Libro de Guisado_ (Catalan/Spanish, 16th century), orange juice is listed as an alternative to verjuice or vinegar, and is used as the primary sauce ingredient in many of the fish dishes. Presumably this would be from sour/bitter oranges; I believe that the sweet varieties are modern. Barbara Santich, in _The Original Mediterranean Cuisine_, says, "The standard accompaniments to fried fish were lemon juice (or the tart orange juice of the time) or green sauce." She comments elsewhere in the book that vinegar and verjuice were interchangeable in many recipes, and that lemon juice or the juice of bitter oranges were other substitutes. > -brid Brighid ni Chiarain of Tethba Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 01:49:49 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Re: lutefisk! etc. Uduido at aol.com wrote: > << As a relative newcomer, I would LOVE to have this receipe! Verjus, please! > Esko >> > > Come on, A, you can do it. I know you can. Blueberry verjus recipe please. :-) > Lord Ras (ROFL) Heh heeeeehhhhh, ya dirty old... Lessee now...if it's really blueberry verjuice you want, and not vinegar, then I suppose you want about fifteen pounds of unripe, green blueberries, or enough to give you around a gallon of pressed juice. Strain into a wide-mouthed fermenting jar, and tie a clean piece of muslin over the mouth. Leave this out in the open for a week or two, then transfer to a one-gallon secondary fermenting jug with an airlock. When no more bubbles form in the airlock, you can bottle the stuff in sterile bottles, such as clamp-top Grolsch bottles. Let age in a dark place for 3-6 months before using. This is your basic verjuice. If you then want to add a more recognizable blueberry character to it, add one quart of additional crushed ripe blueberries (skins and seeds, too) to your secondary fermenter, and let it sit for 2-3 weeks. Strain and bottle. OR, you can make a thick, sweet, blueberry wine and let it turn into vinegar, either naturally or by adding a vinegar "mother" or culture. OR, you can make vinegar or verjuice, and infuse blueberries in it, which is more or less where we started, isn't it? Adamantius Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 19:27:04 EDT From: LrdRas <LrdRas at aol.com> Subject: SC - Substitute for verjuice << Using a mix of mostly orange juice and some lemon juice is one substituion I have seen for verjuice. >> Verjuice is , IMHO, the juice extracted from crabapples or, more commonly, unripe (green) grapes. After extraction it is allowed to undergo a natural fermentation process and is then pottled or crocked. It really bears no resemblance to citrus juices in flavor. It would be my recommendation to not use the orande/lemon juice mixture as a substitute for verjuice on the grounds that in the tasting process the complexity of flavors produced by the citrus family is very much different from that which is produced by either the pomes or the vinas. OTOH, the complexity of flavor produced by the pomes and vinas for the most part contain many characteristics that are common to each thus allowing for the substitution of verjuice made from either crabapples or unripe grapes. Using either of these verjuices in any given recipe would produce a product that only a trained palatte could discern with difficulty. The average person would most likely not notice any change in the taste. The use of citrus as a verjuice substitute would, IMHO, produce a dish that is so radically different in flavor with the end result being a dish unrecognizable when compared to a dish using pome/vina derived verjuice............ al-Sayyid Ras Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 21:39:49 -0500 From: "Martin G. Diehl" <mdiehl at nac.net> Subject: SC - Verjus in the Current Period Greetings to those Noble Kitchen Toilers of the Laurel Kingdoms, In other words: Hi In today's New York Times (11/05/97) in the Dining In/Out section on page F5, there appeared an article entitled "Verjus, a Tart Splash for all Dishes" Some citations from the article [no, they did not quote any primary sources <G>]: "Navarro Vineyards, in Mendocino County, CA, began making verjus at the request of the Booneville Hotel in Mendocino. 'I have a doctorate in medieval history, so I knew what it was,' said Deborah Cahn, who owns the winery with her husband Ted Bennett. Verjus is often listed in recipes from the Middle Ages." "Verjus is a natural byproduct of winemaking and has undoubtedly been made as long as wine has been made. To strengthen grape vines and allow them to produce full flavored fruit, winemakers often thin the vines when the grapes are just beginning to ripen. When this early crop of unripe grapes is pressed, verjus is the result" Verjus can be ordered from the producers at about $10 per bottle. Fusion foods Rutherford, CA 800-297-0686 Navarro Vineyards and Winery Philo, CA 800-537-9463 Sagapon Vineyards Sagaponack, NY 516-537-5106 They are making white, red and chardonay verjus I will try to find out if the entire article is online. I am, Vinchenzio Martinus di Mazza, In Service to the Dream - -- Martin G. Diehl Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 15:23:28 -0800 From: "Crystal A. Isaac" <crystal at pdr-is.com> Subject: Re: SC - Verjuice sources-please You can also get verjuice from Navarro Vineyards in Navato, CA, and Bonny Doone in Santa Cruz, CA. Crystal Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:29:26 EST From: LrdRas <LrdRas at aol.com> Subject: SC - The Making of Verjuice A few people have written to me privately asking for the "recipe" for Making Verjuice. I can but offer 11 years of trial and error as the source of info. SFAIK, there is no know source of information which gives those of us living in the Current Middle Ages any indication of methods for home production of verjuice that may have been known to the noncommercial producer of verjuice during the Middle Ages. If I may be so bold as to offer a personal opinion, as opposed to an opinion based on focused research, I do not see home production of Verjuice any more practiced by your average nobleman's household during times of peace and prosperity than the percentage indicated by the number of people that produce their own Ketchup in the Current Middle. From everything that I can recall reading, in any number of unrelated disciplines, I am of the opinion that verjuice was a commercially produced product throughout the Middle Ages. As such it was most certainly purchased pre-made at the market. Given the above, this is how I make verjuice based on experimentation rather than period references. Verjuice- Another Way 1 bushel unripened grapes (crabapples make be substituted if unripened grapes are unavailable) 3 (36 inch by 36 inch) pieces of cheese cloth 1 large non-reactive container (a canning kettle or a Tupperware or Rubbermaid tub) If you have access to a press, press the juice form the fruit or you can chop the fruit in batches in a food processor, which is what I do. Line the container with the cheese cloth and dump your pulp in as you make it. Pull the sides of the cheesecloth together and tie firmly. Lift the pulp package above the tub with a rope and leave to drip over night. (I hang it from a broom handle between 2 chairs.) Squeexe any remaining juice from pulp. Cover with clear plastic wrap or a cloth and leave sit for 48 hours in a relatively cool place. Skim top if necessary or strain through more cheesecloth to remove additional sediment. Sterilize pint or quart jars and lids. Fill jars and seal. Place in a boiling water bath for 90 minutes being careful to keep your water level above the jar tops by adding boiling water as necessary. Or, place jars in a pressure canner and process at 10 lbs. pressure for 30 minutes. Remove from water unto a towel. Cover with a cloth and cool. Use as needed when verjuice is called for. Ras Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:09:42 -0800 From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com> Subject: Re: SC - The Making of Verjuice At 9:29 AM -0500 3/5/98, LrdRas wrote: >A few people have written to me privately asking for the "recipe" for Making >Verjuice. > >I can but offer 11 years of trial and error as the source of info. SFAIK, >there is no know source of information which gives those of us living in the >Current Middle Ages any indication of methods for home production of verjuice >that may have been known to the noncommercial producer of verjuice during the >Middle Ages. Robert May has a (17th c.) recipe for making verjuice from crab apples; that's the nearest thing I have found. David/Cariadoc Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 02:40:19 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - The Making of Verjuice > Robert May has a (17th c.) recipe for making verjuice from crab apples; > that's the nearest thing I have found. > > David/Cariadoc Somewhat earlier, and arguably period, is Gervase Markham's "The English Housewife", published in 1615, but the subject of lawsuits accusing Markham of plagiarizing his own older works. I doubt the method changed much over time, and suspect the biggest changes in the process as described were more a function of geography, since they were using crabapples instead of grapes. Period recipe or not, it's pretty clear that medieval cooks were using something called verjus, and it is fairly reasonable to think it might be a similar product to what is described in later recipes. Adamantius Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 18:58:27 EST From: LrdRas <LrdRas at aol.com> Subject: Re: SC - The Making of Verjuice In a message dated 3/6/98 12:20:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, ladymari at gila.net writes: << So you mean it's just SOUR GRAPES?? >> Basically, yes. :-) But crabapples were also used (which , IMHO, yields a far tastier product.) Also, keep in mind that the sour grapes were also fermented for a couple of days. Since the sugar content is very low , it doesn't take much time to complete the process. Surprisingly, the use of verjuice in assorted receipts calling for it's inclusion is so good that I use it regularly in mundane (e.g. modern) cookery right along with my cubebs. :-) Ras Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:57:34 +1000 From: Robyn Probert <robyn.probert at lawpoint.com.au> Subject: SC - Re: Galingale and verjuice. Verjiuce is a fabulous ingredient which has made its way into my mundane cooking in a big way. It is now produced commercially here in 750 ml and 375 ml bottles which ship just fine. The taste is fresh and much lighter than vinegar, neither sweet nor as bitter as Seville oranges which are sometimes recommended as a substitute. It is wonderful to deglaze a pan with after sauteing chicken or fish as well as in medieval recipies. Rowan - ----------------------------------------------------------------- Robyn Probert Customer Service Manager Phone +61 2 9239 4999 Services Development Manager Fax +61 2 9221 8671 Lawpoint Pty Limited Sydney NSW Australia Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 06:32:42 -0700 From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" <acrouss at gte.net> Subject: Re: SC - Re: Galingale and verjuice. Hi all from Anne-Marie Rowan says: > > Verjiuce is a fabulous ingredient which has made its way into my mundane > cooking in a big way. It is now produced commercially here in 750 ml and 375 > ml bottles which ship just fine. The taste is fresh and much lighter than > vinegar, neither sweet nor as bitter as Seville oranges which are sometimes > recommended as a substitute. It is wonderful to deglaze a pan with after > sauteing chicken or fish as well as in medieval recipies. If anyone is > interested, I'd be happy to investigate shipping. Its actually availalbe here in the states as well...you can get it in Seattle at De Laurenties in the Market (a big Italian import food store) or at Larry's Market (a very upscale grocery store). Fortunately for the rest of the country, you can mail order from Dean and Delucca as well. I believe they even have a website. I concur that the stuff is fun...though I find that it molds very quickly after opening (not acidic enoucgh, I guess) even when stored in the fridge. I keep meaning to do some taste testing, combining lemon juice and different vinegars in an attempt to duplicate the distinctive acerbic and slightly sour flavor. - --AM Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 14:57:02 +1000 From: Robyn Probert <robyn.probert at lawpoint.com.au> Subject: Re: SC - Re: Galingale and verjuice. Anne-Marie responded to my post on Verjiuce, saying: >I concur that the stuff is fun...though I find that it molds very quickly >after opening (not acidic enoucgh, I guess) even when stored in the fridge. You certainly have to fridge it. I find it stays OK for about 2 months - a vacuum seal helps a lot! The stuff we get is produced by Maggie Beer. Are you getting this imported from Australia or is there a producer in the US? >I keep meaning to do some taste testing, combining lemon juice and >different vinegars in an attempt to duplicate the distinctive acerbic and >slightly sour flavor. Hmm - I've tried a combination of dry white wine and champagne vinegar or sherry vinegar which seem to be pretty close. Rowan - ----------------------------------------------------------------- Robyn Probert Customer Service Manager Phone +61 2 9239 4999 Services Development Manager Fax +61 2 9221 8671 Lawpoint Pty Limited Sydney NSW Australia From: DDFr at best.com (David Friedman) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Verjuice Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 23:50:46 -0700 Organization: Santa Clara University "Karl A Haefner" <RENAISSANCE-COOK at prodigy.net> wrote: >Question from a novice cook-- > In two references, I've found that verjuice is a vinegar made from crab > apples. That is not a very accurate description. Verjuice is a term for a variety of different sour liquids used in cooking. The most common seems to be the juice of unripe grapes. There is a green verjuice made from sorrel. The one reference I know of to making it from crabapples is in Robert May, _The Accomplisht Cook_, which is from the second half of the 17th century. He gives directions, but I don't remember them clearly enough, or know enough about the making of vinegar, to say how close the processes are. In any case, the medieval sources consistently distinguish between verjuice and vinegar. David/Cariadoc -- David Friedman DDFr at Best.com http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 11:26:15 -0500 (CDT) From: jeffrey stewart heilveil <heilveil at students.uiuc.edu> Subject: SC - verjuice I have this calendar called "forgotten english" by Jeffrey Kacirck, and it has an entry on verjuice that I found interesting. Unfortunately, the calendar doesn't come with documentation but... "Tart medieval conconction made from an add assortment of ingredients. The name derives from French Vert Jus, "green juice." Used in cooking or as medicine in the fourteenth to eighteenth centuries, it was said to contain such acidic fruit juices as sour apple, grape and carb apple, often fermented. Other sources say that crab juice and pork broth could be included. Whatever its composition, when muxed with wine, lye and fuller's earth, verjuice was also a component of a cleaning solution for furs and woolens." comments? Especially on the crab juice and the cleaning solution? Bogdan Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 14:34:30 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - verjuice jeffrey stewart heilveil wrote: > I have this calendar called "forgotten english" by Jeffrey Kacirck, and it > has an entry on verjuice that I found interesting. Unfortunately, the > calendar doesn't come with documentation but... > > "Tart medieval conconction made from an add assortment of ingredients. > The name derives from French Vert Jus, "green juice." Used in cooking or > as medicine in the fourteenth to eighteenth centuries, it was said to > contain such acidic fruit juices as sour apple, grape and carb apple, > often fermented. Other sources say that crab juice and pork broth could > be included. Whatever its composition, when muxed with wine, lye and > fuller's earth, verjuice was also a component of a cleaning solution for > furs and woolens." > > comments? Especially on the crab juice and the cleaning solution? "Crab" is frequently found in late- or early-post-period sources as a reference to small, tart, apples: crabapples. Markham gives a recipe for verjuice made exclusively from crabapples. I have no idea whether pork broth was ever used in any connection with verjuice (I strongly suspect not), but I'm pretty certain no crustaceans were ever involved. As for the cleaning solution, I can only say that I understand that vinegar and sand were used to clean rusty mail armor, so why not verjuice? On the other hand, a combination of wine, a fairly dilute acid, which, combined with lye, a pretty powerful base, could make the inclusion of weak acid pointless. I don't know how fuller's earth affects this cocktail. Adamantius Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 16:12:35 -0800 From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com> Subject: SC - Verjuice, thyme, and hyssop (was: Spice cabinet...) Adamantius wrote, commenting on someone else's post: >Your theory about the role of sorrel verjuice is pretty interesting. >Remember the quote from Taillevent I posted, in which he says you'll >need green wheat in winter? Green wheat is another of the items from >which verjuice could be made. I wonder if grapes supplied verjuice for >late summer through the beginning of winter, green wheat in winter and >early spring, and sorrel in the spring and early summer... from Menagier de Paris: "SORREL VERJUICE. Grind the sorrel very fine without the twigs, and soak in old, white verjuice, and do not strain the sorrel, but let it be finely ground; or thus: grind parsley and sorrel or wheat-leaves. Item vine buds, that is those that are young and tender, without any sticks." So he is making sorrel verjuice from sorrel and verjuice, with variants using parsley or wheat leaves (and maybe vine buds) along with the sorrel. And later: "Note, that in July the old verjuice is too weak and the new verjuice is too green: and for this reason, at grape-harvest, verjuice which is mixed half old and half new is best. " Evidently he is expecting his grape verjuice to last the year round. Elizabeth/Betty Cook Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 14:19:35 EDT From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Verjuice Deanna.Knott at GSC.GTE.Com writes: << Just how unripe do they have to be? >> Although I make my verjuice with crab apples (nicer flavor, IMO), you will want to pick the grapes when they have enlarged but are not showing signs of ripening. If there is any hint of sweetness the grapes are far to gone for the making of verjuice. "Green' is lack of ripeness not the color of a ripe grape. BTW, if the grapes that you have access to are the Lambrusco (read Welch's and supermarket grape juice) you will have 'foxy' flavors develope in your verjuice which are the flavors most often thought of as 'grape" by the vast majority of Americans. Verjuice can be made from unripe grapes of this variety but it will have little or no resemblance to the flavor of verjuice made with Old World grapes other than the sourness. Ras Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 14:35:11 -0600 From: mfgunter at fnc.fujitsu.com (Michael F. Gunter) Subject: Re: SC - Sources for Verjuice > Dean & Deluca, they have a website but i cannot remember the URL offhand. > margali I just visited their website: http://www.dean-deluca.com/ One word: Wow. A REALLY groovy website. Gunthar Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 22:44:08 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Verjuice Helen wrote: > What is more period? The red or the white?? I figure the white would be more consistent with the idea that the stuff is made from the juice of green grapes. Vert (i.e. green) juice being a pale yellow is probably more believable from a linguistic perspective than red verjuice. Adamantius stgardr, East Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 11:11:54 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Verjuice Devra at aol.com wrote: > Yes, I see your reasoning about the color of the verjuice, but if you grew red > grapes (or purple, too, I'd guess) wouldn't you use what you had? And doesn't > the word "green" also refer to unripe or young--as in a green cheese, or a > green goose? Sure, you'd use what you had, and one could certainly make and support the argument you've raised. On the other hand, unripe grapes that haven't yet come into their full sweetness also often haven't quite come into their full color. Also, verjuice was made from substances other than grapes, such as crabapples, unripe grain, and sorrel mixed into any of the other standard juices mentioned above, which would argue that at least some verjuice was pale yellow, if not the vast majority. Also yet again, since most red wine is made by steeping the juice pressed from red or purple grapes with the pulp and the skins, rather than straining it off immediately, which would, I believe, result in a wine only slightly pink in color, if not an out-and-out white wine. It's my understanding that you have to make red wine red by conscious decision; it doesn't just come that way by default. This may be a modern distinction, though. I don't know much about period vintning. While none of this discounts the possibility that the "ver" in verjuice refers to age rather than color, I'd consider the color-based theory at least as valid, if not more so by sheer bulk of circumstantial evidence. However, since I'm extremely hesitant to adopt a "One, True" view of anything (exceptions being pizza and chowder ; ) ), I think that while red or pink verjuices probably were made in various times and places, pale yellow "white wine" verjuice is probably a more typical product through SCA period. Adamantius, looking for that Critical Thinking textbook stgardr, East Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 22:40:25 -0700 From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com> Subject: Re: SC - Verjuice At 12:17 AM -0400 7/8/99, LrdRas at aol.com wrote: >swbro at mail.telis.org writes: ><< As the season for green grapes approaches, I would like to ask if anyone >has a receipe for verjuice? >> > >I just squeeze out the juice. Cover it with 2 layers of muslim and let it sit >til the bubbles go away and bottle it. However, I do not use green grapes >which are preferrable. I use crabapple juice or the juice of unripe apples. Robert May has a recipe for making verjuice from crabapples. It's the nearest thing to a period recipe I know of for verjuice. David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 06:51:22 -0700 From: Anne-Marie Rousseau <acrouss at gte.net> Subject: Re: SC - Verjuice hi all from Anne-Marie Gunther sez to voldai re: verjuice...At 08:31 AM 7/8/99 -0500, Michael F. Gunter wrote: >> for my upcomming feast at steppes artisan ansteorra) i'm >> using 2parts apple cider vinegar to one part apple cider. yes i know, it's >> the easy way out. if it were for a display/competition piece/dish i'd make >> it from scratch. >> >> voldai > >Although this is good advice for someone who has no access to verjuice, if >you live in the Dallas area there is a very easy source of verjuice. I picked >up a half gallon of "Sour Grape Juice" at World Foods on lower Greenville. >Also there are a ton of Middle Eastern and Oriental markets in town that >provides this. It's probably cheaper than the vinegar/cider mix you are >making now. > >Why make substitutions when you have access to the real thing? there are now TWO (2!!!!!) commercial sources for verjuice that I know of. One is from Napa's Fusion Foods, PO Box 542, Rutherford California 94573, at about $12 for a 750 ml bottle. DeLaurentis in Seattle carries it, as well as Dean and DeLucca (the mail order yuppie food folks). They ahve it in white and red. we found a new kind on our 15th century re-enactment adventure. On the way home, we stopped at Navarro Winery. They have verjuice! (also great grape juice made from wine grapes. Yum!). They do mailorder, Navarro Vineyards, 5601 Hwy 128, Philo, CA 95466. Phone 1-800-537-9463. Navarros verjuice is not as ascerbic as Fusion Foods, and is quite tasty and palatable on its own, I thought. As well as being WAY cheaper at about $8 for a 750 ml bottle! we ordered a case...:) - --Anne-Marie Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 10:52:13 -0400 From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow) Subject: Re: SC - Verjuice swbro at mail.telis.org writes: << As the season for green grapes approaches, I would like to ask if anyone has a receipe for verjuice? >> There's this from Le Menagier de Paris (c. 1393): "If you would have Verjuice at Christmas from your vine Arbor, when you see the grape opening before it is in flower, cut it off by the stem and the third time let it grow till Christmas. Master Jehan de Hautecourt says that one ought to cut the stock below the grape and the other shoot beneath will put out new grapes." (The Goodman of Paris, tr. by E. Power, p. 300) Cindy Renfrow/Sincgiefu renfrow at skylands.net Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 22:57:31 -0700 From: Anne-Marie Rousseau <acrouss at gte.net> Subject: Re: SC - Verjuice hey all from Anne-Marie... At 09:18 AM 7/8/99 -0500, Michael F. Gunter wrote: >> there are now TWO (2!!!!!) commercial sources for verjuice that I know of. > >Okay, so you say that Sour Grape Juice is not verjuice. But from what I've >seen all you have to do is leave the Sour Juice out for a bit. Now I do admit >there are wineries that are producing what they call verjuice and it may even >be real authentic verjuice at very high prices but I don't understand why you >say that Middle-Eastern Sour Grape Juice is not verjuice? From what I've >read, verjuice is made by crushing underripe grapes and draining off the juice. hmm. I guess it does look like I was naysaying your source. Sorry! that wasnt my intention at all! The emphasis was on the fact that I know of two winery type sources, instead of the singular (and VERY expensive) one I knew about before last week. You know how I get with new information...:) ahem. What I MEANT to say was that IN ADDITION to the middle eastern stuff, there's TWO other sources. Is that better? :) >The Sour Grape Juice I found was something like $4 for a half gallon. If this >isn't verjuice it is certainly better than mixing vinegar and cider. No arguement there. >So, is verjuice simply crushed grapes or is there more to it? But as for now >I'll stick to the Middle-Eastern stuff. In a side by side taste test, they taste fairly similar, though I find that the middle eastern stuff is much thicker, perhaps due to the type of grape and percent water used? The Fusion and Navarro brands are more wine like in mouth feel, thought they all have that ascerbic sour taste. yum! also, I can actually find the Fusion stuff easier than I can the Middle Eastern stuff (the Italian grocer carries Fusion, but my middle eastern market doesnt carry grape juice. Pomegranite molasses and rosewater and decorticated fava beans they got, but no sour grape juice). Go figure! again, I apologise if it seemed I was poo pooing Gunthars source for verjuice, that was not my intent. To each his/her own! - --AM, who would like to make verjuice someday, just as an academic exercise... Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 07:50:22 -0700 From: Anne-Marie Rousseau <acrouss at gte.net> Subject: Re: SC - Verjuice Recipe Hi all from Anne-Marie Rachel asks re: verjuice >Does anyone have any historical information on this drink either? as far as I know there's no documentation for the use of verjuice as a beverage, only as an ingredient, (or condiment :)) like vinegar, where it is often listed as an alternative ... - --AM, who wouldnt MIND drinking the stuff, but she also drinks vinegar with glee :) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 16:10:32 EDT From: ChannonM at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Cadoc asks about Verjuice macdairi at hotmail.com writes: << Verjuice, this is sour-apple cider, correct, or is this one of the period >mysteries? >> Verjus The literal translation from French is "green" juice (green as in unripe)but I'm not a early French translator, maybe someone can verify or debunk that one. Verjuice was a sour liquid produced by releasing the juice of unripe fruit.(Le Viander de Taillevant) The juice was made from unripe grapes (as evidenced from the mention of verjus en grain- verjus grapes in recipes in "Le Viander" and "Ancient Cookery"), crabapples(as mentioned in a collumn note in a 1575 edition of an English manuscript "Warner") , sorrel and possibly any unripe fruit in season according to James Prescott, the translator of "Le Viander".The use of verjuice abounds in medieval manuscripts, it seems that one cannot open a 13th to 16th century cookery book without finding its mention in the first page. All the same, it is difficult to find an actual recipe AFAIK. It appears that the cooks of the middle ages simply assumed that all households would prepare its own and did not need a recipe for something so basic or that the item would be purchased from a vendor as a staple. Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 18:41:45 -0800 From: Rose <rose at santiagosmagic.com> Subject: Re: SC - oyster pie - Where to buy Verjus I've used Napa Valley Fusion verjus for a while. Here are a couple of sites that carry it: http://markusinternational.com/fusion_napa_valley_verjus.html http://www.p4online.com/p4online/oilsvinegars.html http://www.demedici.com/Products/Additional%20Products.htm I've gotten it before from Dean & DeLuca, but I'm having trouble with their website at the moment. There's red verjus and white verjus. I won't swear to their being made from the proper period variety of grape -- I seem to recall their white verjus is made from the chardonnay grapes -- but it's the only verjus I've found to date. Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 00:35:37 -0800 From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: Verjus (was Re[2]: SC - Religious dietary restrictions) Lady Brighid ni Chiarain wrote: >Now, if I could only find a local source of real verjuice... Our local branch of Whole Foods has it. I know, you're in NJ and i'm in CA, but they do mail order. If you have web access, so can you. http://www.wholefoods.com Fusion Napa Valley Verjus Ingredients: grape juice, sulfur dioxide to prevent natural fermentation Fusion Foods, P.O. Box 542, Rutherford CA 94573 I haven't used it yet, so i can't tell you how it tastes. Has anyone used this brand? Anahita al-shazhiyya Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 15:49:19 -0500 From: grizly at mindspring.com Subject: Re: Re: SC - Re: Verjus I have both red and White Napa Valley verjus as well as the Navarro. I find that the Navarro has the 'cleanest' flaver, for lack of a better term. It is brighter and a little more distictive (that is the 1997 vintage). The Nappa Fusion White is very tart and bitter (yea!) but lacks a certain something that the Navarro seems to have; maybe it is more of the grape character. niccolo difrancesco Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 19:48:14 -0600 From: "RANDALL DIAMOND" <ringofkings at mindspring.com> Subject: SC - RE: SC Verjus Micaylah writes: >>>And then of course you can make your own. I buy unripened grapes in August/Sept. (just before they start to ripen), make it and then freeze it it icecube trays for the upcoming year. Seems to work so far.<<< Gillian Riley (RENAISSANCE RECIPES) in her glossary states that the English (not big grape growers) used the juice of green plums and gooseberries instead. She also states that this is still done in traditional Turkish cookery. Does his Grace, Duke Cariadoc have any data on this practice? I had a whole tree of big green plums a couple of years ago and it seemed to make an adequately sour/tart result. Of course, I needed a couple of GALLONS of it as I was using it to baste grilled beef on an open grille for 350 feasters. Ms. Riley also lists a recipe for "Chicken with Verjuice "Amorosa"' by Platina from the household of Poggio Bracciolini of Mantua. Green plum verjuice is also called for in her redaction. Is this documentable from the original text? My Latin and Italian is lousy. Akim Yaroslavich Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 21:16:45 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - RE: SC Verjus RANDALL DIAMOND wrote: > Micaylah writes: > >>>And then of course you can make your own. I buy unripened grapes in > August/Sept. (just before they start to ripen), make it and then > freeze it it icecube trays for the upcoming year. Seems to work so > far.<<< > > Gillian Riley (RENAISSANCE RECIPES) in her glossary states that > the English (not big grape growers) used the juice of green plums and > gooseberries instead. There's a pretty straightforward recipe in Markham's "The English Hus-Wife" (1615 C.E.) which calls for it to be made from crabapples. Adamantius Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 08:38:41 EST From: ChannonM at aol.com Subject: SC - Re: crab apple verjuis << There's a pretty straightforward recipe in Markham's "The English Hus-Wife" (1615 C.E.) which calls for it to be made from crabapples. Adamantius >> A few years ago, I made verjuis from crab apples. I took a quart basket, put a quart of water on the stove, crushed the crabs and simmered them for about 1 hour. In retrospect, if I had a juicer, I wouldn't have added the water. I think that maybe by the final boil, alot of the water would have evaporated, but then I'll bet there were some characteristically different aspects to raw squeezed vs cooked (like sugar content and possibly co-agulated starches) I then strained the mash and squeezed out as much as I could. Using a fine seive I tried to remove as much of the apple as possible (there still ended up some in the bottom of the resulting jars)I then used sterilized jars, brought the juice to a boil and canned the stuff. The product was a light yellow, clear, but with a sediment on the bottom. It was just last month that I tossed the final jar, the seal had never popped, but it was 3 years since I canned it. I chose not to temp fate. The result was tart, yet a hint of sweet. I used it in some 14th C French recipes, as I had no way of getting unripe grapes at the time. Worked for me. Hauviette Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 17:19:18 -0000 From: Christina Nevin <cnevin at caci.co.uk> Subject: SC - Book Review WAS Verjus Magdalena asked: > Gillian Riley (RENAISSANCE RECIPES) in her glossary states that > the English (not big grape growers) used the juice of green plums and > gooseberries instead. I've seen recipes for crab apples, but not green plums. Does she document her sources? Not at all. Here is my review of her book - YMMV: "RILEY, Gillian. Renaissance Recipes Pomegranate Artbooks. 1993. An amusing enough coffee table book. It talks about renaissance cooking and customs, has redactions, and mentions original sources, but has the irritating flaw of giving no solid references outside the bibliography. Nonetheless, it is a nice book to have for the pictures of food and feasts - useful for tabledressing and selection of feastgear. It also is the first place I've found that mentions zabaglione as being in period, for which I am happy to forgive it much! Recommended as a picture book only or an on-sale buy." Lucretzia ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Lady Lucrezia-Isabella di Freccia | mka Tina Nevin Thamesreach Shire, The Isles, Drachenwald | London, UK Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:24:09 -0600 From: Magdalena <magdlena at earthlink.net> Subject: Re: SC - RE: SC Verjus Philip & Susan Troy wrote: > LrdRas at aol.com wrote: > > The title of this recipe seems to be a misnomer. Although it says Chicken in > > Verjuice, the recipe clearly indicates that verjuice grapes are seeded, > > mashed and added to the chicken. This would result in a very different dish > > (albeit it tasty) than the addition of verjuice. > > Perhaps it is a translation error. The title in Latin is something like > "pullam in acrestum", and while acrestum does generally refer to > verjuice, and even still does today (agresto), it doesn't specifically > refer to "green juice" as the English or French ver jus does. Pullus in Acresta Platina 2.26 On Verjuice {De Acore} What they commonly call acresta, I would call omphacium, on the authority of Pliny, and acor [verjuice], on the authority of Macrobius, for omphax, as I have said, means a still-bitter grape; therefore, I would rather call oil from an unripe berry omphacium than acresta, which I do not quite see as being from omphax. [Macrobius] thus defines verjuice: vinegar is sharper than verjuice, whose force it is agreed is greater than acresta, which soothes the burning stomach more mildly and does not emaciate or weaken the body as vinegar is apt to do.(1) Verjuice is wonderfully good for an unsettled or upset stomach or thirsty liver, if you use it raw, for it is less helpful cooked. We use it easily and healthfully against poison and in seasoning foods. 1. Acorem vero ita exprimit: acetum acerbius acore est, cuius vim acresta vehementiorem esse constat, quae temperatus stomachi compescat ardores, nec ita corpus emaciat et dissolvat ut acetum solet. Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 18:48:47 -0600 From: "RANDALL DIAMOND" <ringofkings at mindspring.com> Subject: SC - RE:SC Verjus Magdalena comments: >>> Gillian Riley (RENAISSANCE RECIPES) in her glossary states that > the English (not big grape growers) used the juice of green plums and > gooseberries instead.<<< >I've seen recipes for crab apples, but not green plums. Does she document her sources?< Nope. Pretty much just lists a bibliography which looks a little thin. She seems to rely on translations and other modern publications more than original ms. Akim Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 23:39:21 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Re: crabapple verjus ChannonM at aol.com wrote: > << I also use crab apples for the making of verjuis. I do however, put the > juice > in a carboy and let it ferment until it stops, then can it in a pressure > canner for 10 minutes at 10 LB pressure. >> > > That's a good idea. > Do you think that this was a period method? I hadn't thought about the stuff > being alcoholic at all, or would that not be a result of letting it ferment > then pressure canning it? > I had the impression ( and I emphasize the word impression, I have no hard > facts only observation) that the preserving quality would have been the acid > or sugar content. I have only seen references to the composition of verjus in > a few manuscripts ie Le Viander, mentions "verjus grapes" but never a > direction to ferment the product. > > Please add your thoughts on this. Markham suggests an open fermentation, IIRC, before sealing in kegs. It may be that the idea is that any available sugars (of which there are probably few) ferment into alcohol, which may in turn go sour as either acetic or lactic acid, but the original product has little enough fermentable sugar, and enough acid in it already, that there's no real risk of producing an alcoholic product. At least to no significant extent. Adamantius Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 12:48:58 -0500 From: "Micaylah" <dy018 at freenet.carleton.ca> Subject: Re: SC - Re: Verjus > Interesting. Where do you find the unripened grapes to buy? At your > grocery? I really wouldn't expect there to be much demand for unripen > grapes mundanely, so I wouldn't expect them to be available. Unknowing > customers who buy such expecting eating grapes would probably not be > happy and take it out on the store. The best place I have found to purchase these grapes Stef, is through a grape importer. I am not too sure if you can get these at the typical local "brew your own" type businesses but more at a real grape importer. I live in a city of only 1 million or so souls - 3rd largest city in Cda I believe) and we have several here. These would be the "real mccoy" kind of dealer and unless I am mistaken can *usually* be found in the Italian commercial area's of your city. As well, I have friends that grow grapes and are not adverse to "hacking off" a couple of pounds for me before they ripen. This, though, will only produce a little. If you want quantity go to the dealers. You need to ask them reeeeaaallllly nicely if they could sell you these the minute they come in. After they stop giving you the "should I call the rubberroom people" look you just might want to explain why you want them. I played with the truth a little saying that I was making a medieval Italian vinegar and have been puirchasing from them for 2 years now. It also helped that I buy my grapes from them to make wine as well.. > How do you process the grapes into verjuice? Any particular type of > grapes? I have a reciept somewhere (actually I think I got it from your flori-thingy) and if done properly (my first batch only produced a home for some amazing fruit fly collections) but I was okay from that point on. I will post it as soon as I can get my ass to the kitchen and find it. Caylee Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 13:46:21 EST From: Mordonna22 at aol.com Subject: SC - Crabapples vs. apples Have yet to find documentation on the kinds of sugars found in crabapples, but I have found that crabapples are as good a source as any other apple variety for malic acid, which is necessary for malo-lactic fermentation. Malo-lactic fermentation is a third fermentation, which _may_ occur after a wine has been bottled and put aside for over a year to age. It is only possible in the presence of malic acid, and bacillus gracile bacteria. Malo-lactic fermentation converts malic acid into lactic acid, which process improves the wine and gives it a cleaner, fresher taste. Mordonna the Cook, SunDragon's Western Reaches Atenveldt (m.k.a. Buckeye, AZ) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 14:16:17 EST From: allilyn at juno.com Subject: SC - Re: verjus storage Cato speaks of storing it in amphorae--(earthen vessels sealed with pitch)--and tossing them in the fish pond for a month in order to keep the grape juice good. That would soak the vessel--like a Romer cooker--and help keep it from drying out. I thought that the high acid content would do just fine by itself. It's so unripe that there's not really enough sugar to ferment. Storing in a stone-lined undercroft or cellar should have kept it cool enough to just sit there, like pickles in pickling fluids. Many basements are about 40*, like modern refrigerators. My pickles sit in frig corners year 'round, and when I was little, the 'keeping closet', off the back porch, held huge glass pots of sauerkraut until spring warmth came along. The Menagier speaks of 'diluted' verjus by summer, so if water was added to thin the juice tor make it go further, it would stop the fermentation. It seems to me that fermented verjus would simply be a very sour wine. Scully says that verjuice had not fermented 'to any great extent' and was subject to spoilage. So, apparently, some verjus was fresh--especially some of the fakes, i.e., sorrell ground in water. Does the fermentation and canning change the taste? If not, it may be a good way to preserve since most of us don't run to stone undercrofts in our homes. Allison, allilyn at juno.com Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 01:05:36 +0100 From: Thomas Gloning <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE> Subject: SC - verjus << 'Platina 6.16 Chicken in Verjuice (...)' The title of this recipe seems to be a misnomer. ... >> The English title seems to be somewhat misleading, yes. << Or Chicken with Green Grapes. >> Yes. Go ahead! Anyway: I do not think the original titles are misnomers. Platina has Latin "Pullus in acresta", Martino's parallel recipe has Italian "Per fare pollastri allessi con agresto". Within the recipe Martino says "togli agresto sano, et taglialo per mezo...". That indicates that the Italian word "agresto" was not only used for the fluid made from unripe grapes, but for the unripe grapes too. The two uses of Italian "agresto" or "agresta" for the unripe grapes and for verjuice are also observed in an article of Jaqueline Brunet and Odile Redon on "Vins, jus et verjus" [Wines, juices and verjuice in Italian cookbooks of the 14th and 15th centuries]. They say: "... il [=le mot _agresto_, ou _agresta_] dsigne ! la fois un raisin qui n'est pas arriv ! une maturation complte et le jus que l'on extrait de ce raisin" (p.112). Roughly: 'The word _agresto_/_agresta_ refers both to grapes that have not yet reached complete maturity and to the verjuice that is made from these grapes'. On the Latin use of _acresta_ see Platina himself (Milham 2.26). It seems that he was not happy about the fact that _acresta_ refers both to the grapes and the verjuice... Thus, it seems, that there was no problem to call a recipe like 6.16 "Pullus in acresta" or "pollastri allessi con agresto". Semantics again <sigh>, but I feared that someone might see Platina and Martino as benighted persons who did not know their own language... ;-) Best, Thomas - -- Jaqueline Brunet/Odile Redon: Vins, jus et verjus. Du bon usage culinaire des jus de raisins en Italie ! la fin du Moyen Age". In: Le vin des historiens. Actes du 1er Symposium Vin et Histoire 1989, sous la Direction Scientifique de Gilbert Garrier. Suze-la-Rousse, Universit du Vin, 1990, 109-117. Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 02:56:20 EST From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Re: verjus storage allilyn at juno.com writes: << Scully says that verjuice had not fermented 'to any great extent' and was subject to spoilage. >> In my experience, I agree with Scully, any apparent fermentation is very slow and over with in about 3 days at which point I can it. If left uncanned for more than a couple of months, even in a cool place, it develops mold. I have noticed no difference in taste in cookery. Canning cooks it and even when 'fresh' it is cooked when added to dishes, Ras Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 00:20:38 -0500 From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net> Subject: Re: SC - verjus And it came to pass on 11 Mar 00,, that Thomas Gloning wrote: > The two uses of Italian "agresto" or "agresta" for the unripe grapes and > for verjuice are also observed in an article of Jaqueline Brunet and Odile > Redon on "Vins, jus et verjus" [Wines, juices and verjuice in Italian > cookbooks of the 14th and 15th centuries]. They say: The same usage appears in Spanish. "Agraz" refers both to the unripe grapes and to the juice thereof. Sometimes the liquid is referred to as "zumo de agraz" (juice of unripe grapes), but the shorthand version is more usual. Some recipes call for the grapes themselves. Sometimes this is stated explicitly as "agraz entero" (whole unripe grapes). Sometimes it is simply made clear by the context. For example, a recipe in Granado for verjuice jelly contains the instruction to take the "agraz" and remove the seeds, then cook it with water and sugar until it comes apart; obviously, this refers to the fruit, not the juice. There is a recipe in de Nola which uses the word in both its meanings. "PARA HACER BUEN AGRAZ CONFORTATIVO" (To make a good comforting verjuice). The instructions are to take "agraz" and crush it in a mortar to extract the juice, adding leaves of basil. Lady Brighid ni Chiarain Settmour Swamp, East (NJ) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:39:22 -0800 From: Valoise Armstrong <varmstro at zipcon.net> Subject: SC - Verjus/agraz Hauviette wrote: > In Alya Atlas's work, the word "agraz" is also used to denote verjus. She > mentions the fact that Charlemagne was the ruler of Germany at one point and > had some influence on the culinary arts in this regard. I dont' have the > manuscript in front of me, so forgive the generalities, time to go to work, According to the lexicon in the back of Wiswe's Kulturgeschichte der Kochkunst, agraz comes from agresta so the word would seem to be going north from Italy to Germany not the other way. I noticed in Sabina Welserin's verjuice recipe that she adds salt to the juice. 204 How to make verjuice from early grapes First take the unripe grapes and pound them and strain them. An four quarts of juice put a handful of salt and put it in a small vat and stir it around everyday, then it becomes good verjuice. Wouldn't the salt prevent fermentation? Maybe the salt is meant to act as a preservative. Valoise Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 17:53:11 EST From: ChannonM at aol.com Subject: SC - verjus I was just at the local middle eastern food store and low and behold- right there among the raspberry syrup, quince syrup and pomegranate syrup was Sour grape juice- at $1.99 for 670 gm ( thats Canadian for $1.25 per 10oz). Well, I bought it, brought it home and promptly cracked the seal. Product of Iran- Dashte Morghab Co Fax 0098 (021)6466431 Ingredients:pasteurized Sour grape juice Very tart, smell is sweet. The aroma misleads you into thinking it will be a sweet product. Slightly round at the back of your mouth on the way down, but still pretty astringent. Amber colour, some sediment in the bottom of the bottle. Interesting. I'm going to use it until I find a better source. Hauviette Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:18:51 -0500 From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com> Subject: Re: SC - Re: crabapple verjus Ras wrote: ><< I also use crab apples for the making of verjuis. I do however, >put the juice > in a carboy and let it ferment until it stops, then can it in a pressure > canner for 10 minutes at 10 LB pressure. >> and Hauviette answered: >Do you think that this was a period method? I hadn't thought about the stuff >being alcoholic at all, or would that not be a result of letting it ferment >then pressure canning it? >I had the impression ( and I emphasize the word impression, I have no hard >facts only observation) that the preserving quality would have been the acid >or sugar content. I have only seen references to the composition of verjus in >a few manuscripts ie Le Viander, mentions "verjus grapes" but never a >direction to ferment the product. Le Menagier de Paris (14th c.) distinguishes in several places between old verjuice and new verjuice, the stuff that has sat for a while being better for at least some purposes. This suggests that some fermentation is taking place. He says: "Note, that in July the old verjuice is too weak and the new verjuice is too green: and for this reason, at grape-harvest, verjuice which is mixed half old and half new is best." Elizabeth/Betty Cook (still way behind the list) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 15:38:56 -0700 From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: SC - Three Easy Pieces, or Verjus Redux The Shire of Crosston, with whom i camp, has a period pot-luck feast at every Crown Tournament (3 per year in the West). There are always guests, so there are around 2 dozen diners or so, and frequently other folks show up looking for food and we feed them, as well. Generally, there's plenty. At The West Kingdom March Crown Tourney just passed, I made three dishes from Barbara Santich's "The Original Mediterranean Cuisine" for the Saturday night feast. I didn't use her "redactions" for any of them, just referred to the originals and the translations. VERJUS REDUX I have now used the Fusion brand Napa Valley Verjus that i bought from Whole Foods and i thought it was quite nice. I tasted a spoonful of it before pouring some into the dish i was cooking - i'm weird, i probably could have drunk a juice glass of it - it was tart and fruity, but not bitter. I used it in a recipe for garbanzo beans cooked in almond milk. This was not the unpleasant white grape Fusion brand verjus that Niccolo di Francesco wrote about. I used the Fusion red verjus, which was a lovely purplish red color and was neither unpleasantly tart nor at all bitter, as Niccolo says the Fusion white was. I don't have the recommended Navarro brand to compare it with, but the Fusion red was quite good. <snip of recipes> Anahita al-shazhiyya ate: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 20:06:22 -0400 From: harper at idt.net Subject: Re: SC - Lucrezia in Marketland - mainly OOP - LONG And it came to pass on 17 Oct 00, , that Tina Nevin wrote: > Anyways, I also got some French verjuice 'Verjus du Perigord', (which is > delicious, much yummier than the middle eastern stuff i usually use), > which reads "Ingredients Jus de raisins verts du Perigord. Le Verjus etait > frequemment consomme au Moyen-Age. Ce Verjus s'utilise pour deglacer un > foie gras, mijoter un gibier ou sous forme d'aperitif." Could someone > please tell me what that means? "Ingredients: Juice of green grapes from Perigord. Verjuice was often consumed in the Middle Ages. This verjuice can be used to deglaze foi gras, to simmer game meat, or as an aperitif." > Another nice thing I picked up was some great Spanish white wine vinegar, > distilled from Chardonnay. It is also delicious, and the Cabernet > Sauvignon version I tried was even nicer (unfortunately they'd run out, so > next time). Which led me to wonder whether they made white and red wine > vinegar in period, as I don't remember ever seeing a receipt specify the > color of the vinegar. Can anyone? Nola does, though not in every instance where he calls for vinegar. Red vinegar only appears once, and the rest of them time when he specifies, it's white vinegar. I haven't checked, but I'd guess that maybe some of the French recipes specify the color of the vinegar. Lady Brighid ni Chiarain Settmour Swamp, East (NJ) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 11:16:16 -0600 From: "Adler, Chris" <Chris.Adler at westgroup.com> Subject: SC - RE: Verjuice >>Could anyone tell me where I could get verjuice, or what I could substitute for it? The quote I've gotten is $11 (American) for a 750 mL bottle, mail order (I live in Canada). >>Genevieve I order mine from www.navarrowine.com, and it's $8.50 for 750ml (the specific product is on http://www.navarrowine.com/wines/1100/js00.html). It may be more if sent to Canada, but I don't know. It's a consistently good verjuice - I've ordered it a couple of times. Katja Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 14:39:11 EST From: RuddR at aol.com Subject: SC - Re: Verjuice Genevieve wrote: > Could anyone tell me where I could get verjuice, or what I could > substitute for it? The quote I've gotten is $11 (American) for a 750 mL > bottle, mail order (I live in Canada). I use wine vinegar cut with unsweetened white or red grape juice (generally tarter than Concord), about three parts vinegar to one of juice. Cider vinegar and unsweetened apple juice, in similar proportions works well, too. Rudd Rayfield Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 14:53:39 -0500 From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler at chesapeake.net> Subject: Re: SC - Re: Verjuice The substitute I've used is a sweetish white wine cut with white wine vinegar. It seems to work fairly well...I believe that I used 6 tsp. of vinegar to 1 1/2 cups white wine. Kiri Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 15:15:36 -0800 From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: Re: SC - Verjuice >I use wine vinegar cut with unsweetened white or red grape juice (generally >tarter than Concord), about three parts vinegar to one of juice. Cider >vinegar and unsweetened apple juice, in similar proportions works well, too. > >Rudd Rayfield The verjus i bought was drinkable. I even drank about 4 oz. While i like things tart, i would consider 3 parts vinegar to one part juice not very drinkable. In my experience, a verjus substitute should be tart, but not as sharp as fresh lemon juice. Of course, i don't think i can determine whether my modern California verjus has the same degree of acidity as the Medieval... Anahita amina al-maktabah Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 23:13:34 -0500 From: grizly at mindspring.com Subject: Re: Re: SC - Verjuice > >I use wine vinegar cut with unsweetened white or red grape juice >(generally tarter than Concord), about three parts vinegar to one of >juice. Cider vinegar and unsweetened apple juice, in similar >proportions works well, too. The verjus i bought was drinkable. I even drank about 4 oz. While i like things tart, i would consider 3 parts vinegar to one part juice not very drinkable. In my experience, a verjus substitute should be