salads-msg - 1/31/08 Period salads. lettuce, greens. Recipes. NOTE: See also these files: herbs-msg, cook-flowers-msg, herbs-cooking-msg, vegetables-msg, vinegar-msg, cooking-oils-msg, lettuce-msg, greens-msg, olives-msg, celery-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: hwt at bcarh11a.bnr.ca (Henry Troup) Subject: Re: Truth and Beauty Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1993 14:07:23 GMT ck290 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Chandra L. Morgan-Henley) writes: |> dip recipes is that the people who ate plain raw vegetables |> were most likely to be peasants, who ate whatever they had |> available to eat and didn't take time out for fancy sauces |> when crunching on a turnip for lunch during a long day in the Well, Dear Poster of Silly Notes, I'm going to disagree politely. (Would you like some salt for that turnip, my dear?) Background: I was born in Scotland, my grandmother was "in service" in a hotel in her youth, and my grandfather was a "scaffie" - a collector of garbage for the city of Dundee. Great aunts, etc, were still involved in farming. In short, I come from a modern peasant background. (I'll conceed the modernity.) My grandparents believed that raw vegetables, specifically root veg like carrots, and turnips were actively harmful. We ate lots of root veg, frequently in soups or stews. We did eat some salad in summer. The extant medieval herbals and the like also held that raw vegetables were harmful, "cold and wet" in the doctrine of humours. So there's some evidence of a tradition in two points of at least some people not eating raw turnip. The times in between are reasonably documented too, and no where is the eating of much raw veg recorded. Harry, a peasant by birth. -- Henry Troup - H.Troup at BNR.CA (Canada) - BNR owns but does not share my opinions A former member of a religious para military organization From: ctallan at epas.utoronto.ca (Cheryl Tallan) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: raw vegetables Date: 12 Oct 1993 14:32:18 -0400 Organization: EPAS Computing Facility, University of Toronto jab2 at stl.stc.co.uk (Jennifer Ann Bray) writes: >Ther has been a discussin going on whether the average peasant ever >ate raw food. Here's my contribution: As the "raw food" thread was started by me, I think I should clarify matters. Certainly medieval people ate raw vegetables. I would recommend that anyone doubting this read Platina's _On Honest Indulgence_ (Venice, 1475) or the Salad recipe in _The Form of Curye_ (England, late 14th century). The latter shows up in almost all of the modern "medieval" cookbooks. I merely voiced doubts about the presence of "crudites" (ie. those carrot and celery sticks) at noble feasts. Here in the SCA, they appear at almost every feast (they seem to be second only to honey butter in popularity) whereas one almost never sees a salad (never mind one based on a medieval recipe, even though one is readily available). Of course, I could start a whole new thread on the ever-present honey butter. Does anyone know what leads folk to believe that this is medieval. A friend and I were speculating some time ago that if medieval nobles had really wanted to sweeten their butter for a feast (and honey butter most often appears in a feast context) they would more likely have used the then more expensive sugar... David/Thomas tallan at flis.utoronto.ca From: jtn at nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Veggies Date: 7 Oct 1993 21:37:11 GMT Organization: The Rialto Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn. David Tallan writes, >Yet. personally, I find a lack in cookbooks as a strong piece of >evidence that medieval people *did not eat* carrot and celery sticks! >For I cannot imagine that they could have eaten them for many >generations with stumbling across the concept of "dip", much as they >loved sauces. And a "dip" recipe they WOULD have written down and put >with the sauces. The lack of such a trace is, to me, a pretty strong >indication that, however they ate their vegetables, it probably wasn't >as crudites. (Assuming that we are talking about the upper classes:) I'd agree except for one point. We know, from lots of evidence, that they ate many salads. But the only surviving recipes I am aware of that mention salad dressing call for vinegar and oil (and don't treat them as constituting a separate "dressing", but just as shaken over the salad). Then again: fresh vegetables and fruits were only available in season. While they aren't as "sexy" as something like beef, they are, in their own way, more special. I suspect that they ate them pretty plainly -- though clearly often boiled -- but also that they ate them raw and plainly in salads, and possibly more simply, because they were enjoying them while they could. Cheers, -- Angharad/Terry From: greg at bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Greg Rose) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Question about period food Date: 4 Jan 1995 03:58:47 -0500 Organization: Guest of MIT AI and LCS labs Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn. Jerome of York asks, >Our local group will shortly be having a small potluck, and I have been >asked to bring a "salad-type" dish. I'd like to keep things as "period" >as is possible, but I don't have any recipes that fit the bill. I recall >having been told, long ago, that what we think of as "salads" are >completely non-period...do any of you have a good recipe for this sort of >vegetable based appetizer? I would *greatly* appreciate any help! Fortunately for your situation, you were told wrong. Salads are perfectly period, and were eaten far more widely than most people dream of. (The household accounts of one archbishop actually mention that he insisted on salad with every meal, for instance.) One might expect that this is the sort of thing that is so simple that no recipe would survive, but amazingly, one would be wrong. There's a recipe for salad in _Forme of Curye_ (one of the best known collections of recipes from period, dating to late 14th C England). I rather suspect that it's actual purpose was to remind folks that there are more interesting things to put in salads than simple leafy vegs. Anyhow, the text is as follows: Take persel, sawge, grene garlec, chibolles, oynouns, leek, borage, myntes, porrettes, fenel, and toun cressis, rew, rosemarye, purslarye; laue and waische hem clene. Pike hem. Pluk hem small wi(th) (th)yn honde, and myng hem wel with rawe oile; lay on vyneger and salt, and serue it forth. Slightly modernized: Take parsley, sage, green garlic, chiboles, onions, leeks, borage, mint, poretts, fennel, and garden [town] cress, rue, rosemary, parsley; lave and wash them clean. Pick [the nasty bits out of] them. Pluck them small with your hand, and mix them will with oil; add vinegar and salt, and serve it forth. Obviously, you'll have a hard time finding some of this stuff (I wouldn't go looking for chiboles or poretts ;^}; rue and borrage are tough too, though at least possible). And I wouldn't rule out some lettuces, or spinach, or any readily available fresh herbs (many supermarkets carry fresh basil these days, for example). Things to avoid: tomatoes and bell peppers (New World). I know that there are appropriate cucumbers, but haven't seen them in recipes. I've seen recipes that call for radish, but am not convinced as to the variety. Carrots appear to have been relatively rare; I know of no English recipe that calls for them, and the only French recipe I know of offhand includes immediately afterwards a description of what they are, where to get them, and what they cost -- indicating that the author (the Menagier) considered them exotic enough that his young wife might not know what they are. Hope this gives you some guidelines. Enjoy! -- Angharad/Terry From: greg at bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Greg Rose) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Question about period food Date: 4 Jan 1995 04:11:55 -0500 Organization: Guest of MIT AI and LCS labs Greetings, again, from Angharad. Looking over my recent response to Jerome of York: >One might expect that this is the sort of thing that is so simple that >no recipe would survive, but amazingly, one would be wrong. There's a >recipe for salad in _Forme of Curye_ (one of the best known collections >of recipes from period, dating to late 14th C England). Probably more information than Jerome ever wanted, but to clear up a possible false inference.... On second glance, this sounds as if that's the only period recipe for salad. Actually, not. For instance, Platina has a recipe for "a salad of several greens", in among many vegetable recipes. (It adds lettuce to the list explicitly, and catmint -- yes, catnip -- and chervil, all of which are available, if you're in the mood, as well as some other rather less avaiable stuff, and that wonderful standby, "other fragrant greens".) Also calls for a very simple vinegar and oil dressing. (With all those herbs in the salad, who needs more in the sauce?) He also has a separate section on preparing endive, and lots of other stuff. There are probably other recipes out there too; these are just the ones that jump to mind. In other words, live wildly! -- Angharad/Terry From: jlv at coho.halcyon.com (Vifian(s)) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Question about period food Date: 4 Jan 1995 16:17:00 GMT Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc. Greetings from Jean Louis de Chambertin greg at bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Greg Rose) writes: >Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn. <SNIP> >Obviously, you'll have a hard time finding some of this stuff (I >wouldn't go looking for chiboles or poretts ;^}; rue and borrage >are tough too, though at least possible). We have stopped using rue (although I think that we only had it available in dried form) because of its reputation as an abortificant. I suspect that the amounts that we would have used would have had negligible effects, as probably would a few leaves in a salad, but not knowing this for sure we have opted for the safer course of just not using it. Jean Louis de Chambertin jlv at halcyon.com From: hairy at sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Phil Anderson) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Question about period food Date: Thu, 05 Jan 95 10:16:23 GMT Organization: Lethargy Inc Angharad writes: >Obviously, you'll have a hard time finding some of this stuff (I >wouldn't go looking for chiboles or poretts ;^}; rue and borrage >are tough too, though at least possible). Borage tough to find? What sort of vicious climate have you _got_!? That stuff is about the most combat-ready herb I ever saw. I guess I haven't seen it in the supermarket, but once it's in the garden it's not going away in a hurry... While on the topic of herbs, anyone got suggestions for what to use wormwood for? My plant seems to like its new home, so bits of it may as well be pressed into service... Edward Long-hair Southron Gaard, Caid From: tallison at mcs.com (Tim Allison) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Question about period food Date: 4 Jan 1995 18:16:03 GMT Organization: MCSnet coren at teleport.com (Gary Heavysege) wrote: > Our local group will shortly be having a small potluck, and I have been > asked to bring a "salad-type" dish. I'd like to keep things as "period" > as is possible, but I don't have any recipes that fit the bill. I recall > having been told, long ago, that what we think of as "salads" are > completely non-period...do any of you have a good recipe for this sort of > vegetable based appetizer? I would *greatly* appreciate any help! If you can hold of a book called Sallets Humbles and Shrewsbury Cakes, it will help you with suggestions. The author is Ruth Ann Beebe. She agrees that modern salads are totally non-period-they thought raw vegetables and fruit were harmful-but they did occasionally eat them. Some possibilities that involve currently available foods are boiled onions with vinegar and oil, or samphire(whatever that is)with bean pods, aspauragus and cucumbers, also with vinegar and oil, or olives and capers, or (this may sound unlkely, but they're claiming documentation) young lettice, cabage, purslan(pursley) and divers other hearbes(whatever's available, I guess). This time the vinagrette has a little sugar added. You might also went to check the rec.arts.cooking.historical newsgroup for other suggestions. Hope this is helpful. I went through the same problem years ago at a Richard III Society potluck. Caroline Richenda of the White Rose mka Carol Mitchell -- Tim Allison tallison at mcs.com From: mujle at uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Jennifer L Edwards) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Question about period food Date: 9 Jan 1995 03:32:27 GMT Organization: Educational Computing Network Greg Rose (greg at bronze.lcs.mit.edu) wrote: : Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn. : One might expect that this is the sort of thing that is so simple that : no recipe would survive, but amazingly, one would be wrong. There's a : recipe for salad in _Forme of Curye_ (one of the best known collections : of recipes from period, dating to late 14th C England). I rather suspect : that it's actual purpose was to remind folks that there are more : interesting things to put in salads than simple leafy vegs. Anyhow, : the text is as follows: : Take persel, sawge, grene garlec, chibolles, oynouns, leek, : borage, myntes, porrettes, fenel, and toun cressis, rew, : rosemarye, purslarye; laue and waische hem clene. Pike hem. : Pluk hem small wi(th) (th)yn honde, and myng hem wel with : rawe oile; lay on vyneger and salt, and serue it forth. : Slightly modernized: : Take parsley, sage, green garlic, chiboles, onions, leeks, : borage, mint, poretts, fennel, and garden [town] cress, : rue, rosemary, parsley; lave and wash them clean. Pick : [the nasty bits out of] them. Pluck them small with your : hand, and mix them will with oil; add vinegar and salt, : and serve it forth. : Obviously, you'll have a hard time finding some of this stuff (I : wouldn't go looking for chiboles or poretts ;^}; rue and borrage : are tough too, though at least possible). And I wouldn't rule out : some lettuces, or spinach, or any readily available fresh herbs : (many supermarkets carry fresh basil these days, for example). : -- Angharad/Terry Greetings from Gwenhwyvar Lawen, someone who cooks alot. I just thought I'd add something to the advice given above. According to Hieatt and Butler, the editors of the Early English Text Society's version of Curye on Inglysch (where my copy of the Forme of Cury comes from), chybolles are spring onions (US scallions), and porrettes are young leeks or green onions. Also, when I make this salad and don't have all of the herbs available fresh, I put dried herbs into the vinegar and oil dressing. It turns out very well. I never use rue, as the herb book I have says that strong doses are toxic and should never be taken internally without strict medical supervision (that's good enough for me). Pro cocto- Gwenhwyvar Lawen March of Lochmorrow, MK Jennifer Edwards-Ring Western Illinois University Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: destry at netcom.com (Fellwalker) Subject: Re: Question about period food Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 23:45:55 GMT Suze Hammond (Suze.Hammond at f56.n105.z1.fidonet.org) wrote: : Is it a correct assumption that this lettuce would be more like one of the : modern leaf lettuces, such as red or romaine, instead of iceberg heads? I wish I had more reference on this,(I'm still working on that carrot issue). Since there are at least 6 more types of lettuce than I've ever seen in a grocery store, and since the types that are sold in the US aren't the types that are popular in Europe (where most lettuces were developed anyway)...it's probably not safe to assume that one (leaf) is more period than the other (iceberg) without checking it out. For all I can tell there's one that 's a crunchy leaf-head lettuce (not Romaine) that could be older than either of them. (If anyone comes up with any info please let me know and I'll add it to the research I come up with) Also, Catmint (Nepeta mussinii) and Catnip (Nepeta cataria) are two seperate herps (in the same family, obviously), although catmint could be refering to catnip. (someone noted that Rue was used as an abortificant and should probably be avoided for that reason...Catnip was historically used in a tea to induce menstruation so pregnant women may want to avoid it, also. (My SO drinks it occaisionally with no ill effects) -- -- ...with rings on her fingers and bells on her toes... <destry at netcom.com> From: kkeeler at unlinfo.unl.edu (kathleen keeler) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Cooking Question Date: 10 May 1995 19:08:21 GMT Organization: University of Nebraska--Lincoln Margaret Griffith (peggieg at u.washington.edu) wrote: : I have seen several references in sixteenth/seventeenth century cookbooks : (Digby, etc.) to "Pot-herbs" (for examples, add to the pottage a : collander of pot herbs..."). : Can anyone enlighten me as to what would constitute "pot herbs" in this : time period? : Thank you. : Meg Penrose Generally, "greens". Leaves to toss into the pot. For country folk, stuff you didn't need to grow but could gather: leaves of lettuce, chickweed (_Stellaria media_) shepherd's purse (_Capsella bursa-pastoris_), purslane (_Portulaca olearcea_), watercress, turnips, spinach, goosefoot (_Chenopodium album_), dandelion, salad burnet, arugala to name a few I like. For city folk, cheaply purchased leaves. If we're talking Digby, then English rather than Italian edible wild plants, and Culpeper (Complete Herbal) is a pretty good source as he often mentions which are potherbs. Many American lawn weeds are period potherbs, likely because they were repeatedly introduced by people who wanted to eat them, and so became established in the New World. But check any plant you don't purchase in a major market for safety in 2 modern herbals--a variety of period greens are considered unsafe today. (2 herbals because authors vary greatly in their willingness to express cautions). Agnes/Kathy kkeeler at unlinfo.unl.edu From: alysk at ix.netcom.com(Elise Fleming ) Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Pickled Lemons Date: 21 Jan 1997 01:14:34 GMT In <5c08ju$jla$1 at news.ptd.net> L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt <liontamr at postoffice.ptd.net> writes: >I am searching for a source (unredacted) that will have directions for >making Pickled Lemons and the other sorts of things that might be >strewn upon a grand Elizabethan Salad. Robert May, _The Accomplisht Cook, 4th edition, 1678, has "To pickle Lemons" and says simply "Boil them in water and salt, and put them up with white-wine." May also includes a number of things for "sallats" which would include the grand sallat. You may want to search out a copy. Ditto for Gervase Markham's _The English Housewife_, 1615, as edited by Michael Best. This you might find in a library. He includes a number of salad ideas including carving carrots into fantastic shapes and making "strange sallats" with flowers composed of parts of vegetables. May would be an excellent resource. May also has "Of pickling sallats" where he says "...they are only boiled, and then drained from the water, spread upon a table, and a good store of salt thrown over them, then when they are thorough cold, make a pickle with water, salt, and a little vinegar, and with the same pot them up in close earthen pots, and serve them forth as occasion shall serve." Seems to me there was at least one other reference to pickled lemons but I can't find it right now. Elise/Alys From: Uduido at aol.com Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:03:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SC - Recipe OK. Here's my first one. This is a very tasty salad that I redacted from the Charles Perry translation of The Baghdad Cookery Book, 1226 C.E. which is found in Duke Coriadoc's "Collection of Medieval and Renaissance Cookbooks". To serve 100 multiply by 20, etc. ...................... DRY CURDS WITH VEGETABLES 1/8 cp fresh mint, chopped finely 1 stalk celery, chopped finely 1 leek (white part only), choppped finely 1 lb. cottage cheese (large curd), drained in a colander in a cool place over night Salt, to taste 1/2 tsp dry mustard, fine ground 1/2 cp walnuts, finely chopped Mix mint, celery and leek together. Add drained cottage cheese. Mix well. Add salt and dry mustard. Mix thoroughly. Sprinkle walnuts across top. Serves 5. (The Baghdad Cookery Book; 1226 c.e.) (Trans: Charles Perry, pub. Duke Coriadoc of the Bow "A Collection of Medieval and Renaissance Cookbooks") Redaction by Lord Ras al Zib From: Uduido at aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:07:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: SC - Re: Spice Use and Food Poisoning, etc. In a message dated 97-04-16 04:06:38 EDT, you write: << If you try eating the dandelion greens and other wild herbs, you will find them to be quite bitter.>> Bring to a boil; drain. Repeat 2 x more. The bitterness is then almost non-existenant and even mild when compared with endive, etc. << A great deal of game has a strong taste compared to our supermarket meats. These would be very good reasons to add sugar to so many foods and to use many spices. Given the natural foods and the use of verjuice in so many receipts, I think that medieval preferances must have been rather different from ours. Personally, I don't much like 'sour' and do not at all enjoy 'bitter'. >> When I was growing up a flask of vinegar always was at the table at every meal to slosh onto spinach and other green vegetables. Dandelions were ALWAYS served with vinegar and bacon.. Other foods such as sauerkraut, sauerbraten, salad dressings of all sorts, etc. leap to mind. IMHO, I don't think the taste for vinegar (read verjuice or sour has changed for certain populations. General tastes for most Americans have changed but we're generally wierd anyway and our food was described as tasting like "cardboard" by a Japanese friend of mine. Lord Ras From: Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy at abel.MATH.HARVARD.EDU> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 10:52:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: SC - Re: Spice Use and Food Poisoning, etc. Lord Ras wrote: When I was growing up a flask of vinegar always was at the table at every meal to slosh onto spinach and other green vegetables. Dandelions were ALWAYS served with vinegar and bacon. Very period. Modernly, saute those greens in a mild broth with some orange juice... You'll love it. Period style, see below. Tibor Leafy Greens ("Joutes", Harleian MS 279, #3) Sources found in "Take a Thousand Eggs or More", Cindy Renfrow, 1991. Leafy Greens, or Joutes "Joutes. Take Borage, Vyolet, Malwys, Percely, Yong Wortys, Bete, Auence, Longebeff, wyth Orage and o(th)er, pyke hem clene, and caste hem on a vessel, and boyle hem a goode whyle; (Th)an take hem and presse hem on a fayre bord, an hew hem ryght smal, an put whyte brede (th)er-to, an grynd wyth-al; an (th)an caste hem in-to a fayre potte, an gode freshe brothe y-now (th)er-to (th)orw a straynowr, [& caste] (th)er-to .ii. or .iii. Marybonyes, or elles fayre freshe brothe of beff, and let hem sethe to-gederys a whyle: an (th)an caste (th)er-to Safron, and let hem sethe to-gederys a whyle, an(th)an caste (th)er-to safron and salt; and serue it forth in a dysshe, an bakon y-boyled in a-no(th)er dysshe, as men seruyth furmenty wyth venyson." This dish calls for many spring greens. I could not find most of those, and therefore chose to use other, more available but still period greens. I also converted this to a Lenten recipe by substituting vegetable broth for beef broth or marrow. I expect you may use any greens you choose. Of course, this being Lenten, no boiled bacon for you... I omited salt, as it appears in the bouillion 2 cups each of the following greens: broccoli rabe, Chard, Kale, Parsley. 1/2 vegetable boullion cube 1 cup plain breadcrumbs pinch saffron Wash, dry, pick over and de-stem the various greens. Place a cup or so of water in the bottom of a pot. Boil, and once it is boiling, place the greens in the pot. Stir frequently, until the greens color intensifies, and they become softer. Don't bother over-boiling: they cook another time. Take off the heat, drain and dry carefully. I used both a salad spinner, and pressed them between two plates lined with paper towel. Chop finely by hand, or as I did in a food processor. Heat a cup or so of water in the pot, and dissolve the boullion cube and the saffron in the water. Once it boils, add the vegetables, and the bread crumbs, a little at a time. The crumbs should sort of bind the vegetables together a little, but not really change the color of the dish. Heat until it begins to stick together. From: zarlor at acm.org (Lenny Zimmermann) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 17:42:28 GMT Subject: Re: SC - Mediterranean Feast While not as "Mediterranean" in style as Greece or Turkey, there are an exceptional number of salads and fruit/veggie dishes listing in "The Fruit, Herbs & Vegetables of Italy. An offering to Lucy, Countess of Bedford", by Giacomo Castelvetro. The original is in Italian and written in 1614 (just a hair post period). I tend to have the greatest interest in Late Renaissance Italian cuisine, so this and Platina are my current bibles. ;-) The copy I have is put out by Viking Press, with Introduction and Translation by Gillian Riley (c) 1989 and Foreword by Jane Grigson. ISBN 0-670-82724X. I am not sure if this book is even in print any longer, but Amazon.Com was able to come up with a copy for me. The basic Italian salad would consist of greens (yes, including lettuce) placed in a bowl rubbed with garlic and sprinkled with vinegar, salt and (usually olive) oil. (Modern Italian salads, at least in Northern Italy, are pretty much the same thing to this day. Dump the "Italian Dressing"! ;-)) To be more specific, Castelvetro proclaims:"Of all the salads we eat in the spring, the mixed salad is the best and most wonderful of all. Take young leaves of mint, those of garden cress, basil, lemon balm, the tips of salad burnet, tarragon, the flowers and tenderest leaves of borage, the flowers of swine cress, the young shoots of fennel, leaves of rocket, of sorrel, rosemary flowers, some sweet violets, and the tenderest leaves or the hearts of lettuce. When these precious herbs have been picked clean and washed in several waters, and dried a little with a clean linen cloth, they are dressed as usual, with oil, salt and vinegar." Let me reiterate that drying part, I know quite a few people who can't stand going to a restaurant and having a puddle of water at the bottom of their salad bowl. It is apparently unappetizing to some people. If you had some specific flavors or styles in mind, let me know and I'll see what M. Castelvetro has to say about them. The listings are by season and then, generally, by fruit/herb/veggie. Oh, and one of my favorites is the listing under Sweet Fennel (it has a seed that tastes like licorice): "Fennel Seeds are gathered in the autumn. We flavour various dishes with them, and eat them on their own after meals." So now I always have a little dish with Fennel Seeds to "sweeten the breath" after a feast. It just seems like such a nice little touch. Honos Servio, Lionardo Acquistapace, Barony of Bjornsborg, Ansteorra (mka Lenny Zimmermann, San Antonio, TX) zarlor at acm.org From: zarlor at acm.org (Lenny Zimmermann) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 16:27:54 GMT Subject: Re: SC - medieval Italian salads On Thu, 5 Jun 1997 17:01:19 -0500 (CDT), Stefan li Rous wrote: [brief description of late period Italian salad snipped] >I'm not sure if I understand this description or not. Are you saying >that the empty bowl is rubbed with garlic and sprinkled with >vinegar, salt and oil and then the salad is added? Rather than the >salad being rubbed with garlic and then sprinkled with the other >items? > >Definitely a different effect than "modern"salads. It seems like most >of the garlic taste would end up on the bowl and not in the salad and >that the medieval salad would be much drier. Apparently Castelvetro is indeed proclaiming that the bowl itself is rubbed with garlic. Personally I would go for this technique in a salad anyways, instead of chopping garlic into it, because garlic can be a bit strong. This way that hint of garlic would be imparted on the flavor of the salad. Especially since we are used to finely chopped garlic that has been made milder by a form of pickling in modern Italian dressings. The rubbing on the inside of a bowl will certainly impart some of the stronger oils there providing a scent as well at allowing some of the oils to rub off onto the leaves. Besides, the garlic is optional since not all of his salad recipes use it. Now for the fuller explanation, Castelvetro basically states that in Italy a good salad is made by taking herbs, such as mint, garden cress, basil, fennel shoots, edible flowers, rosemary and tender leaves or hearts of lettuce. All should be washed several times, (He discusses swishing them in a bowl of water and draining several times until all of the sand and gunk is off of them) dried well on a linen cloth (the reason well explained by a good gentle in an earlier posting) and then placed into a bowl which has some salt in it. The herbs and salt are then thoroughly stirred together and oil is added "with a generous hand" and again stirred "so that each leaf is properly coated with oil". Then vinegar is added last of all, but just a bit to provide a good flavor. Castelvetro proclaims, "The secret to a good salad is plenty of salt, generous oil and little vinegar". He also states that his experiences in other countries show that Germans take poorly washed leaves and without draining or drying will put on just a little salt, too much oil and far too much vinegar, generally producing a more decorative effect to the detriment of the flavor of the salad. He also proclaims that the English are "worse" and that after a very poor washing of the salad (he almost questions if the salads are washed at all) that a good deal of vinegar is then put on the salad and is not stirred in with either oil or salt, both of which are added at the table. (Which implies that vials of oil and salt shakers were evident as condiments already on the table in England by the early 17th Century. At least in the places Castelvetro went to. Kinda cool, eh?) Remember the accounts above are by an Italian traveling into areas of these other countries, so while we might deduce that the English MAY prefer more Vinegar than Germans or Italians, in general, we cannot truly take into account what the real preferences were. After all, Castelvetro may have just eaten at the "wrong" places. So if you mean that a Renaissance salad was drier than an American salad, where we usually pour on a big glob of dressing, then you are probably quite right. But such salads were not completely "dry", since Castelvetro expected the leaves to be lightly coated with (usually olive) oil. Just remember that this is for a specific time and place and that a hundred years earlier it's possible that people in Padua despised salads, while those in Milano could have eaten vast quantities with lots of vinegar, no oil and parmesan cheese (wild examples only with no bearing on historical fact). Honos Servio, Lionardo Acquistapace, Bjornsborg (mka Lenny Zimmermann, San Antonio) zarlor at acm.org Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 15:20:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen M Beck <grm+ at andrew.cmu.edu> Subject: Re: SC - Re: SCA myths Excerpts from internet.listserv.sca-cooks: 4-Aug-97 Re: SC - Re: SCA myths by Stephen Bloch at adl15.adel > Although I consider it quite likely that "some vegetables were often > eaten raw" (and fruits, for that matter, although medieval medical books > seem to consider both unhealthy), and that the "recipes" were too simple > to write down, I wonder what evidence we DO have for the practice. There are period recipes for herb salad that don't require cooking. Platina mentions eating various greens raw, including lettece, colewort, endive, ox-tongue, purslain, and chicory. There is also a mention that eating turnips without cooking them causes inflammations and obstructions, which I believe is an indication that they were occasionally eaten raw. toodles, margaret Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:42:42 -0500 From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter) Subject: Re: SC - period salads Hi, Katerine here. Stefan asked for pointers to the salads from Platina. I don't do much work from Platina, and I'm not in the mood to dig them out at the moment, but here's one from Forme of Cury (recipe 78, page 115 in Cury on Inglysch): Salat. Take persel, sawge, grene garlec, chibolles, oynouns, leek, borage, myntes, porettes, fenel, and toun cressis, rew, rosemarye, purslarye; laue and waische hem clene. Pike hem. Pluk hem small wi[th] [th]yn honde, any myng hem wel with rawe oile; lay on vyneger and salt, and serue it forth. In more Modern language: Salad. Take parsley, sage, green garlic, scallions [possibly spring onions], onions, leeks, borage, mint, young leeks [or green onions], fennel [the bulb], and town cress [or water cress for a close analog], rue, rosemary, purslane; lave and wash them clene ["lave" means "wash" too]. Pick them [to remove bad bits]. Pluck them small with your hands, and mix them well with oil; lay on vinegar and salt, and serve. I wouldn't feel compulsive about finding everything. This *is* a salad. Some of the things that make it different from most modern salads are the large number of herbs (fresh clearly best in this context), the use of leeks, the fennel and cress, and the simple variety. All of those are easy enough to reproduce in small quantity, and possible even in feast amounts. You will also notice that lettuce is conspicuously absent! Not to say that the English didn't eat it in salads; it's conspicuously absent from the recipe corpur, but they grew it, and ate it somehow. Just, it's possible to make a green salad without it. Enjoy! - -- Katerine/Terry Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 15:42:28 GMT From: zarlor at acm.org (Lenny Zimmermann) Subject: Re: SC - period salads On the questions about salads in period I can only offer what I have on Renaissance Italian styles. I had posted a couple of months ago what Castelvetro wrote on salads, so I will not repeat that again. (If you really want that post I can e-mail it privately for those who had not seen it.) That was just slightly post period (1614) and probably quite relevant for a late 16th century salat. He does list lettuce varieties of capucina and romana (or Cos) lettuce. Purslane and endive appear to be popular lettuce-like substitutes or additions for use in salads. So, now I will pull it back to Platina (Venice, Italy, 1475).In his "On Honest Indulgence and Good Health" he covers a bit on lettuce stating that there are several varieties available and that Lacticaulis, Sessilis and Crispa are the best. (All lettuce is considered cold and damp, for those that care). He also lists goat-lettuce and Serralia lettuce. He states that lettuce can, and often is, eaten plain with a sprinkle of ground salt, a little oil and a little more vinegar. "There are those who add a little mint and parsley to this preparation, so that it does not seem too bland". I'll skip the bit about cooking lettuce. Platina then goes on to endive, which he considers a type of lettuce. It is also prepared in the same way as lettuce. He also lists a wide variety of other raw leafy vegetables and how to prepare them, but our interest is more on: "On preparing a salad of several greens. A preparation of several greens is made with lettuce, bugloss, mint, catmint, fennel, parsley, sisymbrium, origan, chervil, cicerbita which doctors call teraxicon, plantain, morella, and several other fragrant greens, well washed and pressed and put in a large dish. Sprinkle them with a good deal of salt and blend with oil, then pour vinegar over it all when it has sat a little; it should be eaten and well chewed because wild greens are tough. This sort of salad needs a little more oil than vinegar. It is more suitable in winter than in summer, because it requires much digestion and this is stronger in winter." For those of you who think you can better figure out the ingredients from the original Latin: "CONDITUM Padodopum. It item cenditu pandodopu ex lactuca: buglesso: meno: ceripholio: cicerbita: qua teraxicon: laceda: qua arnaglossam medici uocat: morella: foeniculi flore: ac plersiq; alus odoriferis herbis: bene lotis: expressisq; pa tina ampla requnut: sale perfuso ubi paululum resederit: eau? syluatica durities comedenda: ac bene dendibus coterenda sunt. Hoc coditu plusculu olei & minus aceti requirit. Hieme magis q aestate conuenit: qa plus concoctionis: quae hieme valida est requirit." My copy is tough to read and I don't know Latin, so assume any transcription errors above are mine. On a related note about the boiled onions, Platina says this about preparing onions, for those that might be interested: "The onion is also cooked under the ashes and coals until all the rawness is steamed out of it; when it has cooled it is chopped finely and put in a dish with salt and oil and defrutum, or rolled in must. There are those who also sprinkle the onion with pepper or cinnamon." Castelvetro in 1614 wrote this of onions: "Cooked onions: When there are no spring onions, we make a salad of roasted onions seasoned with crushed pepper. This is tastier and more wholesome than eating them boiled. Onions without pepper are excellent for clearing up the sort of bad cough that lingers after a cold." I hope that some of you find that useful! Honos Servio, Lionardo Acquistapace, Barony of Bjornsborg, Ansteorra (mka Lenny Zimmermann, San Antonio, TX) zarlor at acm.org Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:20:16 +1100 (EST) From: Charles McCN <charlesn at sunrise.srl.rmit.edu.au> Subject: Re: SC - vegetarian dish help please There is something in the british museum cookbook for medieval (I think) called a Salat. It is basically a colloection of green stuff, adding herbs that would be around, and leaving out the iceberg lettuce which (so I have been told - anyone know?) was developed in 17th C. Anyway, it is on the web at http://www.cs.cmu.edu/People/mjw/recipes/ethnic/historical/med-european-coll.html What period did you have in mind? Charles Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:47:57 -0000 From: "Yeldham, Caroline S" <csy20688 at GlaxoWellcome.co.uk> Subject: RE: SC - Spring Foods Brain Buster > The whole thought of these luscious leafy little morsels makes my mouth > water...and my mind wonder about what exactly we can find in the way of > documentation for serving a dish of greens with dressing. I have found > "boiled salad", salad of Lemons (basically a preserved peel dish, from a > Book of Fruits and Flowers), directions for cooking spinach into a tart, or > to boil and then fry it strewing on spices etc... I am wondering if anyone > has found a recipe for FRESH GREENS served in the way of a modern salad. > Salad is almost always a component of the feasts in the current middle ages > (regardless of the season). How did that happen? Is it convenience, cost, or > modern tastes intruding upon our attempt at re-creation? Sometimes the > simple questions about feast management are the ones that challenge you! > [Yeldham, Caroline S] And by great co-incidence I'm working on Formond's list of plants dated to c 1500 (he died 1542/3 but the handwriting dates it to around 1500 - this information from John Hervey's Early Gardening Catalogues 1972 SBN 85033 021 1 published by Phillimore). the text is also known as Sloane MS 1201 in the British Museum. He gives something like 100 plants for gardens under the headings of ' for potage', 'for sauce', 'for the copp', 'for a Salade', ; to stylle', 'for savour and beaute', 'rotys for a gardyn' and 'for a herber'. BTW if anyone knows what 'for the copp' or to stylle' mean, I'd love to know. 'For a Salade' is 'buddes of Stanmarche, vyollete flourez, perceley, redmyntes, syves, cresse of boleyn, purselan, ramsons, calamyntes, prime rose buddus, dayses, rapouses, daundelyon, rokete, red nettell, borage flourz, croppus of Red fenell, selbestryune, chykynwede' the one that puzzled me was 'selbestryune', which John Harvey identifies as ? Herb Trinity, viola tricolour. Lettuce (or letuse or letyse) does appear on the list, but under pottage. By John Aubrey's time (17th century) he identifies lettuce as the basis for any salad. > A) Has anyone found a recipe or reference to serving fresh, raw greens (with > acoutrements) such as we find in a modern salad? If so, how might the dish > have differed to the "modern" interpretation of a dinner salad? What about > the dressing (if any)? If the salad differes considerably to modern > interpretations, what would the finished dish be like? [Yeldham, Caroline S] As for dressings, I've references to oil and verjuice, but I'll have to hunt them out > A.1)What about sprouts? Were they a consumed food (apart from barley > sprouts that were used for beer-making)? [Yeldham, Caroline S] Not seen anything to suggest it. > B) What sorts of greens might be involved in a period salad? How might they > differ from region to region? [Yeldham, Caroline S] Not just greens! Lots of flowers as well - wonderful visual opportunity! In the banquet I did in October I got the people making them up to use pomegranate seeds as decoration - they looked wonderful > C) Does salad appear in every culture we study, or just western Europe? > > D) Does the nature of Salad evolve through the middle ages and rennaisance, > or remain constant? Are there "fad" salads that may have been popular at > one time? [Yeldham, Caroline S] There's the Elizabethan Salmagundy (not seen earlier references) which involves meat and fish or eggs as well as the usual range of herbs etc. > E) Where in the meal might we expect the salad to occur? Why? [Yeldham, Caroline S] Gervase Markham has the start of any dinner being 3 salads, one boiled but the other two fresh greens. I tend to serve them either there, or with the lighter dishes on the second course. > F) Why might our modern cooks avoid serving preserved fruits and > vegetables, > and how does that slant our perception of what a "real feast" would have > been like? [Yeldham, Caroline S] I've used pickled walnuts, pickled samphire and olives in salads, which have worked well. My problem is transporting glass jars around the countryside, with the risk of breaking them, so I prefer to minimise the use of glass. However I do hope to pickle broombuds and barberries this year! Almost forgot - sweetmeats of all sorts - I do try to take those along too! Caroline Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 15:17:09 -0500 From: Woeller D <angeliq1 at erols.com> Subject: Re: SC - Spring Foods Brain Buster > [Yeldham, Caroline S] 'For a Salade' is > > 'buddes of Stanmarche, vyollete flourez, perceley, redmyntes, syves, > cresse of boleyn, purselan, ramsons, calamyntes, prime rose buddus, dayses, > rapouses, daundelyon, rokete, red nettell, borage flourz, croppus of Red > fenell, selbestryune, chykynwede' > > the one that puzzled me was 'selbestryune', which John Harvey > identifies as ? Herb Trinity, viola tricolour. Also known as Helen Mount Viola, or popularly (around here, anyways) as 'Johnny Jump Up'. It is a hardy perennial, which looks like a miniature purple, lavender and yellow pansy. Seeds are fairly widely avaiable, usually listed as Viola tricolor. They are a charming, easy to grow, readily self-sowing flower (they can take on the propagation properties of a weed, if you aren't careful) I have previously used the flowers as a very pretty addition in salads, but a recent post on this list identified pansies as poisonous, and I believe they are fairly closely related, so I'm not sure if they're truly safe. If I find out more, I'll pass it on. Bon chance, Angelique Date: 4 Mar 1998 12:45:14 -0800 From: "Marisa Herzog" <marisa_herzog at macmail.ucsc.edu> Subject: Re: SC - Spring Foods Brain <snip>identified pansies as poisonous, and I believe they are fairly closely All of my research has shown viola, violets, pansies, johny-jump-ups, etc. as safe and edible- - -brid Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:51:28 -0400 From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow) Subject: RE: SC - Spring Foods Brain Buster <snip> > [Yeldham, Caroline S] And by great co-incidence I'm working on >Formond's list of plants dated to c 1500 (he died 1542/3 but the handwriting >dates it to around 1500 - this information from John Hervey's Early >Gardening Catalogues 1972 SBN 85033 021 1 published by Phillimore). the >text is also known as Sloane MS 1201 in the British Museum. > > He gives something like 100 plants for gardens under the headings of >' for potage', 'for sauce', 'for the copp', 'for a Salade', ; to stylle', >'for savour and beaute', 'rotys for a gardyn' and 'for a herber'. BTW if >anyone knows what 'for the copp' or to stylle' mean, I'd love to know. Hello! My hunch is 'for the copp', means literally 'for the cup', i.e., herbs to be used to make wine or other beverages, or perhaps to be eaten with wine as a sop. To 'stylle' means to distill. > 'For a Salade' is > > 'buddes of Stanmarche, vyollete flourez, perceley, redmyntes, syves, >cresse of boleyn, purselan, ramsons, calamyntes, prime rose buddus, dayses, >rapouses, daundelyon, rokete, red nettell, borage flourz, croppus of Red >fenell, selbestryune, chykynwede' > > the one that puzzled me was 'selbestryune', which John Harvey >identifies as ? Herb Trinity, viola tricolour. Gerard has a short section on obsolete English names of plants: "Stanmarch is Alisander." Selbestryune is not listed there or in the index, or in the various names for Viola tricolor (Iacea, Herba Trinitatis, herb Trinitie, Herba Clauellata, Pensees). (Or in Culpeper, Rohde, or Britton & Brown.) Cindy/Sincgiefu renfrow at skylands.net Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 00:16:00 +0000 From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net> Subject: Re: SC - Spring Foods Brain Buster And it came to pass on 4 Mar 98, that L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt wrote: > I am wondering if anyone has found a recipe for FRESH > GREENS served in the way of a modern salad. > A) Has anyone found a recipe or reference to serving fresh, raw > greens (with acoutrements) such as we find in a modern salad? > Aoife I do not have a salad recipe per se, but some information on which vegetables were eaten raw in 15th century Spain. The _Arte Cisoria_, written in 1423, is a carving manual which explains the proper way to cut up a wide variety of foodstuffs. Here is a list of vegetables which are eaten uncooked. (Note that some veggies were to be served either raw or cooked in various ways.) Carrots Parsnips Artichokes Lettuce (the author explains how to cut lettuce, then specifies that the ones which are to be cooked do not need cutting. From this I gather that some lettuces were eaten raw.) Turnips -- sometimes eaten raw, when tender. Radishes -- sprinkled with salt after cutting to release their juices There is no mention of combining vegetables into a salad, nor of dressings, but then, this is a carving manual and not a cookbook. Lady Brighid ni Chiarain of Tethba Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom mka Robin Carroll-Mann *** harper at idt.net Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 07:31:38 -0500 From: "Tina Carney" <brighid at iserv.net> Subject: Re: SC - salads This question about salads has probably already been answered but here is a recipe I have, supposedly from the Boke of Nurture c.1460 Take parsel, sawge, garlec, chibollas, onions, leek, borage, myntes, porrectes, fenel and ton tressis, rew, rosemarye, purslayne, lave, and wash them clene. Pike hem, pluk hem small with thyn hond and myng hem wel with rawe oile. Lay on vynegar and salt and serve it forth. Brighid the Ageless living the canton of Rimsholt in the Glorious Middle Kingdom Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 12:36:55 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - salads > This question about salads has probably already been answered but here is a > recipe I have, supposedly from the Boke of Nurture c.1460 > > Take parsel, sawge, garlec, chibollas, onions, leek, borage, myntes, > porrectes, fenel and ton tressis, rew, rosemarye, purslayne, lave, and wash > them clene. Pike hem, pluk hem small with thyn hond and myng hem wel with > rawe oile. Lay on vynegar and salt and serve it forth. > > Brighid the Ageless According to Lorna Sass, the recipe is from the Forme of Cury (c. 1390 approx.). Your particular copy was probably taken from Sass' To the Kings Taste and wrongfully attributed to John Russell's Boke of Nurture because of the quote which precedes the recipe in Sass' book. "Beware of saladis, grene metis, and of frutes rawe." -- John Russell, Boke of Nurture (c. 1460). Unfortunately, I do not have copies of the originals to verify this. Bear Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 15:01:42 -0500 From: allilyn at juno.com (LYN M PARKINSON) Subject: Re: SC - Borage A question was asked, regarding documentaion for borage. IV 78. Salat. Take persel, sawge, grene garlec, chibolles, leek, borage, myntes, porrettes, fenel, and toun cressis, rew, rosemarye, purslarye; laue and waische hem clene. Pike hem. Pluk hem small wi(th) (th)yn honde, and myng hem wel with rawe oile; lay on vyneger and salt, and serue it forth. p.115. Hieatt, Constance & Sharon Butler. CURYE ON INGLYSCH. Oxford University Press. 1985. The Fromond List, c. 1525, gives uses for borage as both herbs for pottage and herbs for salad.It is not starred, as a native plant. This means that the plant was imported into England. Landsberg, Sylvia. The Medieval Garden. Thames & Hudson, 1995. ISBN 0-500-01691-7. Thames & Hudson, Inc. 500 Fifth Avenue, NY 10110. The history section on borage gives several Latin possible interpretations for the name, quotes a Roman verse in Latin, "Ego, Borage Gaudia semper ago." (I, Borage, bring always courage). She quotes Pliny "maketh a man merry and joyfull." He claimed that borage steeped in wine was the famous Nepenthe of Homer. A 17thC. quote, also. Candied flowers were given to persons recovering from long illnesses and those prone to swooning, Still called 'cool-ankard' in England, etc. p. 53. Keville, Kathi. Herbs, An Illustrated Encyclopedia. A Complete Culinary, Cosmetic, Medicinal, and Ornamental Guide. Barnes & Noble, NY, 1997. ISBN 0 7607 0486 4. Allison Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:41:19 +0100 From: "Yeldham, Caroline S" <csy20688 at GlaxoWellcome.co.uk> Subject: RE: SC - Borage > Alison posted: > > The Fromond List, c. 1525, gives uses for borage as both herbs for > pottage and herbs for salad.It is not starred, as a native plant. This > means that the plant was imported into England. > Landsberg, Sylvia. The Medieval Garden. Thames & Hudson, 1995. ISBN > 0-500-01691-7. Thames & Hudson, Inc. 500 Fifth Avenue, NY 10110. Sylvia Landsberg has this slightly wrong. The starring on the Fromond list does not necessarily mean it is a native plant; it means it does not appear on a 13th century list of plants which was used as a comparison by the later writer who published the list (and MLAH and I can't remember his name). This may mean it was introduced between the 13th and the end of the 15th century, but there are other possible explanations (the 13th century writer didn't happen to use it, he forgot it when making his list, he didn't like it or didn't approve of it so left it off the list). The other point to make is that the 13th century list isn't necessarily a list of native plants - there were introductions before the 13th century. Caroline Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 19:14:22 EDT From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: SC - Will's- more recipes Here are the few recipes my co-feastocrat at Will's Revenge, His Lordship Thorstein, was willing to share. :-) Sorry for the lack of documentation but this isn't my work. Enjoy. They are wonderful. :-) <snip of other recipes> Salat Salad greens (avoid iceberg lettuce) 1 tbs. each fresh chopped parsley, sage, mint, and any other available, suitable herbs 1-2 bunches scallions, sliced 1-3 cloves garlic, minced optional: 2-3 small leeks finely sliced optional: 2-3 tbs. chopped chives * cup salad oil (preferably olive) 3 tbs. vinegar 1* tsp. salt Wash and tear up greens. When well drained, put in bowl or bowls and add sliced scallions and leeks. Herbs, garlic, and oil may be added now, with the salt and vinegar reserved for the last minute, or if you prefer, mix herbs, garlic, oil, vinegar and salt as you normally would a salad dressing and add all at the same time just before serving. Mix and toss in the usual way Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 07:03:49 -0400 From: Phil & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Pre-mixed field greens - was: Re: SC - salads (long) needlwitch at msn.com wrote, re premixed field greens: > Yep, I have gotten it many times at stores in my area. It beats iceberg > salads hands down. Kind of spoiled me I guess. And it is fun trying to > identify all the different greens. It does cost a bit more, though it is > well worth it, IMHO. Yes, this is good stuff. You can find it at good greenmarkets, farmer's markets, and maybe some supermarkets, for all I know. Sold as "mixed field greens" of "mesclun". I usually order it in 3- or 5-lb boxes: a box goes a long way because these greens are much lighter than lettuce: you get maybe 35 - - 50 good-sized servings from a box, depending on whether it's a 3 or a 5 - -pounder. It also generally comes prewashed and pretrimmed, ready for dressing and serving. A quick look for various, uh, forest floor items might not be such a bad idea though. Let's say it is clean and ready to serve 98% of the time, within my experience, and is full of various animal byproducts and hunks of wood the other 2% of the time. On the other hand, washing it just in case can hurt the greens, so that should be avoided too, because some of these greens are really very delicate. (At Bouley we were forbidden to run tap water on them, to avoid breakage; we had to fill a sink and slowly immerse them...possibly a bit excessive, but when you're taking someone else's money, etc.) Drying them afterwards can also be a problem, since salad spinners tend to be rather small. One trick I encountered is to gather your greens up in a small tablecloth, hold onto the corners and swing the greens around like a centrifuge. For events, I recommend finding burly fighter types, the original food processors! As for the compromised periodicity of the greens being used in the mix, it's true there are some lettuces involved, and lettuces would not have appeared in the average European salad until well after the Middle Ages, but many greens that _would_ likely have been there in a period mixed salad _are_ there, too. You'll likely find purslane, baby kale, dandelion, parsley, chives, watercress, lamb's lettuce, sorrel, baby spinach leaves, endive, along with some lettuces of various kinds, like baby romaine, red leaf, and baby red oak leaves (which I don't think are actual oak leaves, but are shaped like them). The best mixes will also often include some edible flowers, either whole or in petals. Adamantius stgardr, East Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 15:23:46 EDT From: CONNECT at aol.com Subject: Re: Re: Pre-mixed field greens - was: Re: SC - salads (long) Phil & Susan Troy wrote: <<What I meant was that while lettuce was eaten in period, it seems to have been consumed mostly in the Eastern Mediterranean regions, and does not appear in any salad recipes I can think of offhand. I think it's going to be near the eighteenth century before it will appear with any frequency in an English salad recipe>> I'm looking at my copy of The English Housewife, written by Gervase Markham in 1615. In chapter 2, section 11 and 12, it says: "Of sallats. Simple sallats. First then to speak of sallats, there be some simple, and some compounded; some only to furnish out the table, and some both for use and adornation; your simple sallats are chibols peeled, washed clean, and half oteh green tops cut clean away, so served on a fruit dish; or chives, scallions, radish roots, boiled carrots, skirrets, and turnips, with such like served up simply; also, all young lettuce, cabbage lettuce, purslane, and divers other herbs which may be served simply without anything but a little vinegar, sallat oil, and sugar; onions boiled, and stripped from their rind and served up with vinegar, oil and pepper is a good simple sallat; so is samphire, bean cods, asparagus, and cucumbers, served in likewise with oil, vinegar, and pepper, with a world of others, too tedius to nominate. Of compound sallats. Your compound sallats are first the young buds and knots of all manner of wholesome herbs at their first springing; as red sage, mints, lettuce, violets, marigold, spinach and many other mixed together, and then served up to the table with vinegar, sallat oil and sugar." The English Housewife, by Gervase Markham, edited by Michael R Best, and published by McGill-Queen Unversity Press. The ISBN of the paperback edition is 0-7735-1103-2. Your humble servant, Rosalyn MacGregor (Pattie Rayl) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 16:30:13 +0200 From: Jessica Tiffin <melisant at iafrica.com> Subject: SC - Salad questions I find myself currently up to the eyebrows in period salad recipes - we're going into summer, and I'm putting together an article for our newsletter on period salads, in the hopes that it'll persuade our non-cooking Shire members that it's possible to bring something both simple and authentic to our potluck events. I have no problem with the Form of Curye salad or the one from Platina, having primary versions of both. It's with the earlier (Roman) and later (Elizabethan) salad recipes that the trouble starts. I have lots of Elizabethan salad recipes, but all from secondary sources. The main one is Ruth Ann Beebe's "Sallets, Humbles and Shrewsbury Cakes", which quotes acres of primary sources, but doesn't specifically attribute them. She merrily tells us that all the recipes quoted come from Dawson's "Good Huswife's Jewel" and "Good Huswife's Handmaide for the Kitchin", Gervase Markham's "English Huswife", "Countrey Contentments", and Murrell's "Delightful Daily Exercise for ladies and gentlewomen". She doesn't attribute each individual recipe at all. I've managed to track down some, but there are several I can't identify: please, if anyone has copies of the Elizabethan sources and recognises these, can you tell me where the darned things come from? Quoting from secondary sources only is outraging my earnest postgraduate soul... It seems logical to assume that this one and the long series of "Anothers" are all from one source: Sallet for FIsh Daies First a sallet of green fine hearbs, putting Perriwincles among them with oyle and vineger. Another Olives and Capers in one dish, with vinegar and oyle. Another Carret rootes being minced, and then made in the dish, after the proportion of a Flowerdeluce, then picke shrimps and lay upon it with oyle and viniger. Another Onions in flakes laid round about the dishe, with minced carrets laid inthe middle of the dish, with boyled Hippes in five partes like an Oken leafe, made and garnished with tawney long cut with oile and vinegar. (Any ideas what on earth "tawney long cut" is?? And I assume "Hippes" are rose hips?) Another Salmon cut long waies, with slices of onions laid upon it, and upon that to cast violets, oyle and vineger. Another Take pickelde Herrings and cut them long waies, and so lay them in a dish, and serve them with oyle and vineger. To compound an excellent Sallet, and which indeed is usall at great Feasts, and upon Princes Tables Take a good quantity of blaunch't Almonds, and with your Shredding knife cut them grosly; then take as manie Raisyns of the sunne cleane washt, andthe stones pick't out, as many Figges shred like the Almonds, as many Capers, twise so many Olives, and as many Currants as of all the rest cleane washt: a good handfull of the small tender leaves of red Sage and Spinage; mixe all these well together with a good store of Sugar and lay them in thebottome of a great dish, then put unto them Vinegar an dOyle, and scrape more Sugar over all; then take Orenges and Lemmons, and paring away the outward pills, cut them into thinne slices, then with those slices cover the sallet all over; which done, take the thin leafe of the red Coleflowre,a nd with them cover the Orenges and Lemmons all over, then over those red leaves lay another course of old Olives, and the slices of wel pickld Coucumbers, together with the very inward hart of your Cabbage lettice cut up into slices, then adorne the sides of the dish and the top of the Sallet with more slices of Lemons and Orenges and so serve it up. The Roman problem is that my only access to Apicius is "The Roman Cookery of Apicius," which is translated and adapted by John Edwards. Would anyone know if this is a trustworthy translation? The comments in Stefan's Florilegium file were fairly disparaging about Edwards's redactions (an opinon I had independently formed from reading it!) but I'm wondering if the actual translation has the same kind of errors as the Vehling one? He doesn't give the originals, not that I could tell a correct Latin translation if it was served up to me with oyle and vinegar, but hey. Sorry to bombard everyone with such a long post, but any help will be gratefully received, including other sources in which I could dig for salad recipes - are there, for example, any Andalusian ones?? Melisant Melisant de Huguenin * Jessica Tiffin * melisant at iafrica.com Seneschal, Shire of Adamastor, Drachenwald (Cape Town, South Africa) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 08:06:47 -0700 From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" <acrouss at gte.net> Subject: Re: SC - Salad questions Hiya from Anne-Marie Meslisant asks us about period (Elizabethan) salads. None of them look at all familiar to me, except the one that starts: > To compound an excellent Sallet, and which indeed is usall at great Feasts, > and upon Princes Tables<snip> That one is from _The English Hous-wife_ c. 1615. One of my favorites! and believe it or not, it gets inhaled at banquets. Who says they wont eat salad??? :) re: Apicius salads, dont forget to look at #84. Fresh cukes dressed with vinegar, honey, liquamen, pepper, broth,. rue (or its equivalent) and a bit of asafetida. Yum! and so quick to make! - --AM Madrone/An TIr Seattle/WA Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:29:06 -0500 From: allilyn at juno.com (LYN M PARKINSON) Subject: Re: SC - Salad questions