pickled-foods-msg - 04/1/08 Medieval pickled food. recipes. Pickled eggs, lemons, cheese, cucumbers, compost. NOTE: See also the files: pickled-meats-msg, campfood-msg, food-storage-msg, canning-msg, drying-foods-msg, meat-smoked-msg, stockfish-msg, vinegar-msg, eggs-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: Aoife <liontamr at postoffice.ptd.net> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Keeping meat (was: one "pot" meal) Date: 4 Sep 1996 20:22:54 GMT Gracious gentles, >> 3) soft cheese in oil. This sounds interesting. Can I just buy a soft >> cheese and immurse it in oil? > >I bought a jar containing lots of balls of a soft white cheese in olive >oil at a middle eastern grocery before this Pennsic, and it kept fine at >Pennsic. I haven't experimented with producing it myself. Aoife: Several years ago "Marinated Mozzerella" was the culinary rage. Olive oil, a little balsamic vinegar, blanched garlic, and spices of your choice are briefly heated to kill any nasty bugs. When cooled, it is poured over cubed mozzerella or other semi-soft cheese. It keeps several weeks on the counter, several months or more in the 'fridge. I heartily reccomend this....cheese is wonderful when preserved this way. >David/Cariadoc Aoife liontamr at ptd.net From: Aoife <liontamr at postoffice.ptd.net> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Keeping meat (was: one "pot" meal) Date: 9 Sep 1996 16:51:47 GMT Organization: ProLog - PenTeleData, Inc. jeffs at bu.edu (Jeff Suzuki) wrote: >I am currently running experiments on various means of pickling, and >how long they will keep without refrigeration. Right now, I'm >pickling various vegetables in the Japanese tsukemono fashion. > >First, a note: I've always seen the signs say "refrigerate after >opening", and I've always _bought_ tsukemono refrigerated, but of >course, in period, they wouldn't have had either. So I am assuming >that, done properly, the tsukemono will keep for a while. > >Anyway, I'll post the results when I get them... > >Fujimoto In Martha Washington's Booke of Cookery, (not THE Martha Washington...Columbia university Press, New York, 1981)Editor Karen Hess gives us some valuable advice: (Page 166-7, and regarding vegetables, but equally true of meat) "Straight pickling brine requires about 6 tablespoons of salt per quart of water; if vinegar is added, far less is required, perhaps 1 or 2 tablespoons will do. Pickles should be examined occaisionally for mold; if there is as yet no sign of softening, all can be set right by draining off the liquor, boiling it for 10 or 15 minutes, rinsing off the pickles,and adding a new cold vinegar to the cooled liquor in sufficient quantity to cover the pickles once again." Please forgive my impertinence if this advice isn't going to a novice, but....I reccomend you do further reading. In fact most old household-type cookery books have excellent examples of pickling or brining foods in recipes. BTW, do you have any japanese period cooking sources? Please share. The best source for period information is the horse's mouth.... Aoife From: jeffs at bu.edu (Jeff Suzuki) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: food preservative report Date: 25 Sep 1996 21:40:52 GMT Organization: Boston University All right, the science experiment has succeeded... I experimented a bit with pickled vegetables in a Japanese vein (tsukemono), a great accompaniment with rice (and --- eek! --- takai if you buy them yourself). Here are the recipes (though they're also on my web page: http://math.bu.edu/INDIVIDUAL/jeffs/index.html) Cucumbers: three cucumbers, 2 cups water and 1/4 cup salt. Keep the cucumbers covered, let sit for a week in the fridge. These kept about a week at room temperature before mold started growing on them. Chinese cabbage: rinse, separate leaves, and layer, liberally sprinkling salt over each layer. Let sit about a week in the fridge, weighted down (if you don't want to buy a tsukemono presser, at $ridiculous, use a plate and a heavy weight). These have been sitting out for about three weeks now, and are still fine. Next month...miso pickles? We'll see... Fujimoto From: alysk at ix.netcom.com(Elise Fleming ) Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Pickled Lemons Date: 21 Jan 1997 01:14:34 GMT L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt <liontamr at postoffice.ptd.net> writes: >I am searching for a source (unredacted) that will have directions for >making Pickled Lemons and the other sorts of things that might be >strewn upon a grand Elizabethan Salad. Robert May, _The Accomplisht Cook, 4th edition, 1678, has "To pickle Lemons" and says simply "Boil them in water and salt, and put them up with white-wine." May also includes a number of things for "sallats" which would include the grand sallat. You may want to search out a copy. Ditto for Gervase Markham's _The English Housewife_, 1615, as edited by Michael Best. This you might find in a library. He includes a number of salad ideas including carving carrots into fantastic shapes and making "strange sallats" with flowers composed of parts of vegetables. May would be an excellent resource. May also has "Of pickling sallats" where he says "...they are only boiled, and then drained from the water, spread upon a table, and a good store of salt thrown over them, then when they are thorough cold, make a pickle with water, salt, and a little vinegar, and with the same pot them up in close earthen pots, and serve them forth as occasion shall serve." Seems to me there was at least one other reference to pickled lemons but I can't find it right now. Elise/Alys From: jkrissw at aol.com Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Pickled Lemons Date: 21 Jan 1997 18:49:12 GMT L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt <liontamr at postoffice.ptd.net> writes: >I am searching for a source (unredacted) that will have directions for >making Pickled Lemons and the other sorts of things that might be strewn >upon a grand Elizabethan Salad. I have come across a recipe for *faking* >pickled lemons, but as it requires you have the liquid from the pickled >lemons to begin with, I am no farther forward. Failing a period recipe, >I'm willing to work from a description or best guess. Here's a recipe from Claudia Roden's "A Book of Middle Eastern Food" (not necessarily period, but certainly traditional Egyptian): "Scrub lemons well and slice them. Sprinkle the slices generously with salt and leave for at least 24 hours on a large plate set at an angle or in a collander. They will become soft and limp, and lose their bitterness. Arrange the slices in layers in a glass jar, sprinkling a little paprika between each layer." (Note, as paprika is late-period at best, you might want to experiment with other spices - coriander, cinnamon, etc.) "Cover with corn or nut oil. Sometimes olive oil is used, but its taste is rather strong and may slightly overpower the lemons. Close the jar tightly. After about 3 weeks, the lemons will be ready to eat - soft, yellow, and a beautiful orange color." I've also heard a version where the lemons were first boiled (whole, not wedged) before being packed in salt. That recipe also called for using some "fake saffron" (safflower). Pickled lemons are quite interesting when used on a sandwich as one would a "regular" pickle, adding a bite to almost any kind of meat sandwich. The Egyptians use it to spice up a "bisterma" (middle-eastern cousin of "pastrami", but more garlicy) sandwich. Daveed of Granada, AoA, CHA From the Barony of Lyondemere in fair Caid mka J. Kriss White in smoggy L.A. jkrissw at aol.com From: L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt <liontamr at postoffice.ptd.net> Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Pickled Lemons Date: 22 Jan 1997 12:54:50 GMT Organization: ProLog - PenTeleData, Inc. Gracious Gentleperson, Thanks for your input. This sounds interesting! I have also been pointed in the direction of Robert May and Markham (later edition than the one I own). In addition I have found (been pointed to)several recipes for pickled lemon rinds using white wine and sugar (which was near to what I was looking for). I have preserved oranges, and can guess from that tasty experiment the procedure for pickling lemons whole. It's a darn shame I may have to go out and buy yet more cookbooks. Last month my cookbook shelf literally fell off the wall. Now I know better than to trust my valuable tomes to mere nails, wood and brackets! Actually this post went to both newsgroups at once. I indulge in both sins (hopefully at the same time ;^D). Your efforts may make it to the table at Aethelmearc's First Crown Tournament. Thank-you. Lady Aoife Finn (who was born in "Fair Caid", in the city of Angels, and wishes she were there out of the snow right now). From: jack at purr.demon.co.uk (Jack Campin) Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Pickled Lemons Date: 23 Jan 1997 01:20:18 GMT Organization: The Fluffiest Flat in Edinburgh L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt <liontamr at postoffice.ptd.net> writes: > I am searching for a source (unredacted) that will have directions for > making Pickled Lemons and the other sorts of things that might be strewn > upon a grand Elizabethan Salad. Why not just buy them from a Middle Eastern food shop? Is the modern Egyptian bottled kind all that different from what the Elizabethans used? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack Campin jack at purr.demon.co.uk T/L, 2 Haddington Place, Edinburgh EH7 4AE, Scotland (+44) 131 556 5272 From: cass <cass at telerama.lm.com> Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Pickled Lemons Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 08:00:42 +0000 Organization: Telerama Public Access Internet, Pittsburgh, PA I have just put together a small booklet on Feasting and Fasting Foods of Lent and Ramadan for a Food Fest weekend. Among the recipes I intend to share are several Torshi recipes of Egypt. I am an American but share my time between the US and Egypt. Torshi are pickled vegetables. They include turnips, onions, cucumbers, carrots, green hot peppers, olives, and lemons. The Egyptian lemons are small ones, the size of a large walnut. They are available int he United States. They are much more flavorful that American lemons. Lamoon Mikhalel Pickled Lemons 50 small lemons for juice 4 T salt 3 T black peppercorns 7 T saffron 50 small yellow lemons 8-10 pickling jars Squeeze the juice of 50 lemons and set aside. Combine salt, peppercorns and saffron and set aside. WAsh remaining lemons. Cut almost in half, leaving enought to keep them joined. Place a layer of lemons, sprinkle salt mixture, add another layer, sprinkle salt mixture, and continue until jar is filled. Pour enough juice to completely cover the lemons. Seal the jar. Continue until finished. Allow to ferment for three to four weeks. There are two cookbooks you might me interested in Egyptian Cooking by Samia Abdelnour. American University in Cairo Press (available through Columbia University Press (new edition currently in press) and Flavors of Egypt by Susan Torgersen available through Trade Routes Enterprises 518 Fourth Street Monessen, PA 15062. Price 20.00 plus 3 s&h Now I am interested in the history of Torshi in Egypt. Any ideas? Cassandra Vivian From: "Joseph M. Carlin" <foodbks at shore.net> Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Pickled Lemons Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:12:09 -0500 Organization: Food Heritage Press Every Friday I go to Boston's Haymarket to buy a half-pound of olives from one of the few Middle Eastern food stalls. Yesterday (Jan 24) they had a five-gallon plastic bucket filled with pickled lemons. This was the first time I had seen them in the mostly Italian food market. From: charding at nwlink.com (Cathy Harding) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 18:52:14 -0800 Subject: Re: SC - SC Pickels Master Ian Damebrigge of Wychwood wrote about a sweet pickle from Curye on Inglish, p. 120-121 This is a wonderful sweet pickle. It is the one Cossette and I used in the last feast we did. It was the Janeltis feast held in the honor of the Dowager Princess of An Tir at the An Tir Kingdom Kingdom A&S Championship. We put up about 24 jars of it. Because this was a visual as well as yummy feast we did the Pears and green and red cabbage separately so that we would have different colors on the plate and garnished it with fresh violets and pansies (edible). It was a pickling extravaganza, and the kitchen was quite sticky afterward! We did it the weekend before the feast, it was part of the first course which was all cold as we had the kitchen for a very limited time. Maeve From: "Philip W. Troy" <troy at asan.com> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 00:57:03 -0400 Subject: Re: SC - Pickles linneah at erols.com wrote: > Why haven't I seen more pickled things (veggies and meats) served at feasts? > Is it because it takes too much planning or is there something else? > > Linneah It might be just that people don't want to store the food for long enough in advance for the process to be completed. I've had good sucess with the composte recipe from The Forme of Cury. It's a sort of cooked pickle/jam/chutney. A bit like Italian mustard fruits. Adamantius From: L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt <liontamr at postoffice.ptd.net> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 07:51:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: SC - Pickled Lemons-The Recipe-LONG Maeve writes: >Cosette the Nice and I just spent all day sunday putting up vegetables >(pickled of course) which won't be ready until about september crown. Last >fall we pickled more vegetables which we are eager to taste in May. Many >pickled things take time to mature before they are ready to be served, >sometimes months. This often doesn't fit in to the feast planning >schedule. > >We are always looking for pickle recipes and other ways of preserving >fruits and vegetables for later use. Anyone have any experience with this? > >Maeve >charding at nwlink.com OK. I can't resist showing off my new recipe, espescially since I trawled all over the 'net begging for originals of the recipes I read about in a third-hand source......Oh NO! It's the Pickled Lemons AGAIN!!!! The copyright notice is for my protection. I may wish to write a cook-book one day! The notice expressly forbids copying to another news group. Please note this fact. It allows the use for Feasts and even for printing a menu/recipe list, but only in an SCA context. As a point of interest, current law provides that a recipe is sufficiently altered from an original if it contains a 25 percent difference in ingredient contents and/or amounts, AND the corresponding alteration in directions. Altering the directions with different wording OR a slight alteration in ingredients is not sufficient to avoid violation of copyright laws. Please accept my apologies for the baldness and necessity of the copyright notice. Since we have taken the honor of the SCA into a public forum, I feel it is necessary. The ancient, non-copyright originals: Preserved Oranges (technique lifted, but not all ingredients). The Good Huswife's Jewel --T Dawson, 1596 A Lemon Salat from A Book of Fruits and Flowers, printed by Thos. Jenner, London 1653 (author unknown). I followed the ingredients but not the technique! The recipe is a compilation of the two, and can not be considered a primary source redaction of a medieval recipe. I have bothered to include it on the sca-cooks list because it's fabulous, and must be tried to be appreciated. In the past I have read several recounts of salads which had lemons or pickled lemons strewn upon them. This was my attempt to re-create those pickled lemons. Not having been alive in the 16th-17th century, I don't know if I have succeeded. However, every now and then, a cook get a single recipe for which they are most proud. Right now, this is mine. COPYRIGHT NOTICE: The following recipe entitled "Pickled Lemons" is copyright L. Herr-Gelatt, 1997, also known as Lady Aoife Finn of Ynos Mon within the Society for Creative Anachronism, Inc., (SCA), and may not be reproduced in part or in whole without express permission of the author, except for the one-time transmission originated by the author for the purposes of the newsgroup "Sca-Cooks" and no other automated transmission, for storage in the Society for Creative Anachronism, Inc. (SCA) Cooking Archive Files of Mark S. Harris for research purposes, or to be used privately for the purpose of Historical Meal Planning and Cooking within the structure of the SCA, Inc. In all cases, full credit should be given to the author. At the date of transmission, the Author can be reached at liontamr at ptd.net or at RR 1 Box 500F Honesdale PA 18431. This copyright notice must accompany all versions of the recipe unless the author gives express permission to exclude it. RECIPE: Pickled Lemons 2 blemish-free lemons Juice and zest of 1 lemon (no white) 1 cup white wine (sweet: Rhine wine is suggested) 1 c. sugar 1/3 cup white or flavored vinegar (I used home-made costmary/lemon verbena vinegar) Cut a small round hole in the 2 lemons the size of the end of your little finger. Remove the round piece of peel. Insert a paring knife into the hole and give it several twists to loosen and break the membranes. Insert little finger and press gently against the flesh to try and loosen any pits. Remove the pits that fall out, and reserve the draining lemon juice for syrup, below. Gently bring to boil 1 quart of water in a suacepan. Lower lemons into the pan and boil rapidly 5 minutes. Remove and drain. Repeat 3 more times with fresh water (it is more efficient to have one pan heating while boiling in another). If the lemon rind is espescially thick, 1-3 more boilings will be necessary. Drain them well, saving the liquid that pools beneath them. In a separate saucepan combine remaining ingredients (and the drained lemon juice from above). Bring to a boil to combine, and turn off heat. When lemons have been boiled in the 4 changes of water, put them (drained) into the wine-syrup mixture and bring to a boil. Reduce heat and simmer approx. 15 minutes or until syrup volume has reduced by 1/3-1/2. Cool. Remove lemon zest and reserve for another use (it is now candied). To keep the lemons, refrigerate lemons in syrup or can them in the syrup using normal heat processing procedures. Store in an airtight container. Slice lemons thinly or dice small and use in salads or to garnish desserts. The liquid produced, in which the lemons are to be stored, refrigerated, or canned in by heat processing, is excellent, and can be used on it's own as a dressing for salad or added to water or seltzer for a refreshing drink. I welcome any comments about the above recipe. Aoife From: "James L. Matterer" <jmattere at weir.net> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:49:41 -0700 Subject: Re: SC - SC Pickels Cossette wrote: >Why haven't I seen more pickled things (veggies and meats) served at >feasts? Is it because it takes too much planning or is there something >else? > >Linneah Well, I've been making pickled dishes an integral part of every feast I've done for the past several years. The most popular seems to be English-style pickled eggs (which I usually make as part of a Ploughman's Lunch, with pickled onions, bread, & cheese), but one of my favorites is a dish called "Compost" which contains raisins, pears, cabbage, walnuts, mustard seeds, anise seeds, white radishes... all pickled together in white wine and honey. Here's the original recipe with my redaction: Compost redaction by Master Ian Damebrigge of Wychwood "Take rote of persel, of pasternak, of rafens, scape hem and waische hem clene. Take rapes & caboches, ypared and icorue. Take an erthen panne with clene water & set it on the fire; cast alle thise therinne. Whan they buth boiled cast therto peeres, & parboile hem wel. Take alle thise thynges vp & lat it kele on a faire cloth. Do therto salt; whan it is colde, do hit in a vessel; take vyneger & powdour & safroun & do therto, & lat alle thise thynges lye therin al nyyt, other al day. Take wyne greke & hony, clarified togider; take lumbarde mustard & raisons coraunce, al hoole, & grynde powdour of canel, powdour douce & aneys hole, & fenell seed. Take alle thise thynges & cast togyder in a pot of erthe, & take therof whan thou wilt & serue forth." - -Curye on Inglish, p. 120-121 The following is a modified (but just as tasty) version of the medieval recipe, containing only the "pasternak" (carrots- from the botanical "pastinaca"), "caboches" (cabbage), "peeres" (pears) and "raisons of courace" (currants). The other medieval ingredients are "rote of persel" (parsley root), "rafens" (radishes), and "rapes" (white turnip). 2 lbs. carrots, sliced 1/2 head cabbage, in small pieces 3-4 pears, sliced thin 1 tsp. salt 6 tblsp. vinegar 2 tsp. ginger few threads saffron 1 bottle (750 ml.) white wine 1/2 c. honey 1 tblsp. mustard seed 3/4 c. currants 1 tsp. cinnamon 1/2 tblsp. each anise seed & fennel seed Boil the carrots and cabbage for several minutes, then add the pears. Cook until tender; drain well. Lay vegetables and pears in a large, flat, non-metallic dish. Sprinkle on the salt. Let cool, then sprinkle on the vinegar, ginger, and saffron. Cover with a cloth and let stand for several hours or overnight. When ready, mix the vegetables with the currants and the seeds. Place in a sealable container and set aside. In a separate pot, bring the honey, cinnamon, and wine to a boil, skimming off the scum until clear. Remove from heat and pour over the vegetable mixture. Let cool and seal. May be stored for a week or more. Serves 12 - - 15. Bibliography: Hieatt, Constance B. and Butler, Sharon. Curye on Inglish: English Culinary Manuscripts of the Fourteenth Century (Including the Forme of Cury). London: For the Early English Text Society by the Oxford University Press, 1985. From: "Philip W. Troy" <troy at asan.com> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:10:02 -0400 Subject: Re: SC - SC Pickels James L. Matterer wrote: > > Well, I've been making pickled dishes an integral part of every feast > I've done for the past several years. The most popular seems to be > English-style pickled eggs (which I usually make as part of a > Ploughman's Lunch, with pickled onions, bread, & cheese), but one of my > favorites is a dish called "Compost" which contains raisins, pears, > cabbage, walnuts, mustard seeds, anise seeds, white radishes... all > pickled together in white wine and honey. Here's the original recipe > with my redaction: <Original recipe snipped for space> I've loved this dish for several years. I'm interested in your mention of walnuts above. The source you cite doesn't mention them, but the recipe in Le Menagier for a similar dish does mention green, immature nuts, probably walnuts although no specific type is mentioned. I've tried this with immature almonds, which I can get at Middle Eastern markets near me about once a year. When cooked they resemble those large "Italian" string beans. > The following is a modified (but just as tasty) version of the > medieval recipe, containing only the "pasternak" (carrots- from the > botanical "pastinaca"), "caboches" (cabbage), "peeres" (pears) and > "raisons of courace" (currants). The other medieval ingredients are > "rote of persel" (parsley root), "rafens" (radishes), and "rapes" (white > turnip). Pretty similar to what I make. One trick I've been using is to put the mixture into sterile canning jars. You could argue that this defeats the period purpose of pickling, but it does prolong the shelf life by quite a bit, and any unopened jars can actually be saved for the next time you might want them (including another event, if you're of a mind). Actually, if sealed jars are refrigerated, the compost will keep for upwards of a year with no serious diminution of quality. This is a wonderful Pennsic food and is especially good with cold meats or sausage. Adamantius From: "Sue Wensel" <swensel at brandegee.lm.com> Date: 22 Apr 1997 14:57:55 -0500 Subject: Re(2): SC - SC Pickels > > Compost > > redaction by Master Ian Damebrigge of Wychwood > <snip!> > > 1 bottle (750 ml.) white wine > <snip!> > > This sounds really good. Can anyone suggest something I could > substitute for the wine? (or am I out of luck on this one?) > > Claricia Nyetgale > Canton of Caldrithig > Barony of Skraeling Althing > Ealdormere (still mostly in the Middle Kingdom) Option 1: Try to get non-alcoholic white wine. Option 2: Increase the amount of vinegar and water to approximate the amount of white wine. I think the ratio may be 1 part vinegar to 3 (or 4?) parts of water. You may also need to increase the sugar to account for the increased tartness of the vinegar. Derdriu From: "James L. Matterer" <jmattere at weir.net> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 20:35:32 -0700 Subject: Re: Re(2): SC - SC Pickels > This sounds really good. Can anyone suggest something I could > substitute for the wine? (or am I out of luck on this one?) I would suggest using white grape juice that has been tempered with cider vinegar or malt vinegar - just enough to sour the juice and increase the acidity level to a close approximation of wine. Master Ian Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 02:11:30 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Compost: was SC - bird or bay? <snip> It's a mixed pickle/chutney similar to Italian mustard fruits. Recipes for it appear in le Menagier and in the Forme of Cury. The French version calls for clove-and-ginger studded, immature nuts (probably walnuts, but possibly hazels or some other type) to be pickled, along with several other fruits and vegetables, each separately processed and added to the mixture when their peak harvest date arrives (How's that for thinking medievally, Aoife ; ) ) The English version is much more straightforward, with the various ingredients being parboiled, diced, salted overnight, and added to a hot vinegar pickle / honey-mustard syrup. As I say, I have a recipe for making something like 50 pounds or more of the stuff, and have not yet had the opportunity to reduce it to more managable quantities...unless... waitaminnit. Go to (those of you who can) these URL's: http://www.adelphi.edu/~sbloch/sca/cooking/ppb.html#compot and http://www.adelphi.edu/~sbloch/sca/cooking/twelfth.night.html#Sauseges The first URL has a recipe for a reasonable amount of compost made from green almonds, in a synthesis of the French and English versions. The second has a recipe for an ungodly huge amount of strictly English compost. You can ignore the accompanying sausage recipe, which isn't period anyway. Or not, as you wish. Adamantius Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:07:41 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Re: pickles Michael F. Gunter wrote: > Isn't there a recipe in "The English Housewife" or one of the other more > common sources for pickles? I'm sure I saw a recipe for pickles just the > other night. Yup, you're right. Markham, and various other late period sources, do include recipes for various types of vegetable and/or flower pickles. Generally they call for a brief blanching in boiling water, and then a bath in a vinegar-based sauce, which is usually cooked with sugar and spices and then allowed to cool before using. I'd sort of gotten into the habit of thinking of such sources as marginally out-of-period, and thought first of the "High Middle Ages" sources, which contain relatively few pickle recipes, as such. Perfectly legit, of course. Adamantius Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:59:47 -0400 From: Aine of Wyvernwood <sybella at gte.net> Subject: Re: SC - Buried Foods (was - Composte) add suerkraut to that list....originally it was put into crocks with a rock inside to keep the cabbage beneath the vinegar and burried to keep it cool and to ferment...my mom makes the stuff, tho she does not bury it - it is the same. so sour that I make my poor little lips pucker in rememberance...but fabulous on hot dogs. Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 23:04:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Tyrca at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - period suerkraut? This is just my opinion, and not at all documented, but German Saurkraut is made by salting the fresh cabbage, and leaving it in the crock to ferment on its own. It seems to me that this process didn't have to be imported from anywhere, but could have risen very easily from a good housewife trying to preserve some of her fresh cabbage through the winter. We know that they were already preserving meats this way. I don't think it is that difficult to see the progression. Tyrca Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 12:49:49 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - period suerkraut? Brett and Karen Williams wrote: > It is possible that the dish we know as sauerkraut is far older a > technique than we can document, as is the general technique of > salt/brine pickling. Without that documentation, though, a supposition > remains a supposition. True. For what it's worth, though, I understand that it is possible to make sauerkraut without salt, under the right conditions. Apparently, in relately cool but humid conditions (say, in a cellar in Germany) you can press your shredded cabbage with a board and a weight, and it will exude enough juice without the salt to begin lactic fermentation. Adding salt may have been considered an improvement over this technique, but my guess is that we'll never know. Adamantius Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 18:31:15 -0400 (EDT) From: ANN1106 at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - period sauerkraut? Just came across an article in Saveur Magazine, Jan/Feb 1997 issue: Page 48 sttes: "The origins of sauerkraut are hotly debated in Alsace, but the basic notion of fermented cabbage was probably brought to what is now Germany from China in the late Middle Ages by invading Mongol hordes. The earliest reference to it in Alsace dates from the 15th century..." Audrey - just lurking around because I have an interest in food history Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:02:54 -0400 From: "Louise Sugar" <dragonfyr at tycho.com> Subject: Re: SC - Small Feasts-'unplanned' LONG Ok let me try since I normally do this with no recipie at all . I learned this from my grandmother when I was very small and still use the same jar after all these years. It is a 2 quart jar I THINK. I boil a dozen medium eggs to hard boiled stage, cool under running water and shell. On the stovetop heat equal portions (a cup or so) of apple cider vinegar and beet juice/water(3:1 ratio) plus a small onion sliced and separated into rings, 3 or 4 whole cloves and 3 or 4 peppercorns, 1/2 to 3/4 tsp of salt and 1/4 tsp of sugar. Bring just to a simmer and turn off stove. Do not strain. Place 3 thin slices of lemon in bottom of jar, pack in a layer of eggs and some of the marinade then a second layer, marinade, eggs, marinade to the top. Be sure that the marinade completely covers the eggs and cover with 3 thin slices of lemon. cover jar with waxed paper, screw on lid and place in fridge for a week or so....the longer the tangier the eggs become....after 3 or 4 days they are a lovely ruby color after a week or so they are a browner red. I have also made them have a hot tang by adding 1/8 tsp or less of red chile pepper. You can adjust the amounts of marinade by the addition of more vinegar and beet juice but try to keep the proportions equal. I've made these for about 40 yrs now and love them also you can put beets into the same marinade and have pickled beets as well.....DELISH!!! Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 12:43:19 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at spambegone.asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Request for documentation: Honey Glazed Vegetables Maddie Teller-Kook wrote: > This recipe is from Terence Scully's latest cookbook: Early French > Cooking. This recipe is a redaction from the Menagier de Paris. > > Honey Glazed Vegetables: > > for 5 lbs vegetables: > > 1 lb each (or chose any mix of a total = 5 lbs). I could be wrong, but I think the recipe you mention is a very loose adaptation of the recipe in Le Menagier [Take 500 new nuts, etc.], which is essentially a sweet, spicy pickle of mixed vegetables, including green nuts, carrots, pears, etc. There are similar recipes in both the Forme of Cury (composte) and in Ein Buoch Von Guter Spise (the latter using a similar sauce for cucumbers or root vegetables). The only parsnip recipe I can think of, offhand, apart from parsnip fritters of various kinds and composte, is from quite late period, or after. I think it's in either Hugh Plat's "Delites for Ladies", or in Digby's Closet. It is essentially boiled, mashed, parsnips, pureed with butter and a bit of the cooking liquid to a creamy consistency. I'll see if I can find it. Adamantius Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 22:44:49 EST From: melc2newton at juno.com (Michael P Newton) Subject: SC - My entry to Queen's Prize Tourney For those of you not in Calontir, last sat. was Queen's Prize Tourney, our A&S main event of the year. Those of the Grant level award and above sponsor those of us below that level and help/encourage projects in the Arts and Sciences. At the event, the projects are laid out, with their documentation, where the populace can show their astonishment and appreciation for them (bowls are given and placed next to the projects so that the populace can give trinkets and other things if they are really impressed - I ended up with several beads, two small "empty" books, and two bars of homemade soap) Judges, at scheduled times, normally in threes, come around and do a face to face evaluation with the person on their entry. Instead of judging, they discuss what was good, bad, or surprising, about the object and its documentation, and where you can go to from here. It also gives you a chance to question people more experienced than yourself on the chosen topic. At the evening court, the sponsors call up their people and award them prizes, most of them made by the sponsors themselves.(we had to evacuate the building in the middle of court because a fire alarm went off, but that is another story) My Cooking Entry was Pickled Lemons. I had found several references to pickled lemons in _The Domostroi:Rules for Russian Households in the Time of Ivan The Terrible_ edited and Translated by Carolyn Johnston Pouncy (Thank you Brigid!) and decided to see if I could find a salt brine lemon pickle recipe. I found a modern one in _A Feast of Fruits_: Moroccan Preserved Lemons 6 lemons, preferably thin-skinned lemons, about 1 13/4 lbs. 1/2 C. coarse salt (I used canning salt, so I think I overdid the salt a bit) One 1-inch stick cinnamon 1/2 teaspoon allspice berries (I know, allspice isn't medieval, but It was the first time on the recipe so I didn't want to muck with the spice blend. The judges suggested ginger/anise perhaps, next time) 1/2 teaspoon black peppercorns 2 whole cloves 1 bay leaf Bring a pot of water to a boil. Add the lemons, return the water to a boil, and cook 3 minutes. Drain, drop the lemons into cold water, changing it once or twice to cool the lemons;drain again and dry.Stand the lemons on end & cut them lengthwise nearly into quarters so that they open out and remain attached at one end. Spread each open and sprinkle the inside liberally with the salt;close it up and pack it into a wide-mouthed 2-quart preserving jar,or two 1-quart jars, pressing down to squeeze out some of the juice. Continue with the remaining lemons. Add the apices to the jar/s along with the remaining salt, and pour fresh boiling water up to the top. Wait until all the bubbles have risen, then seal and sterilize. Store at least 1 month in a cool dry place. To use rinse the lemons and quarter,slice, or chop them with or without the pulp. For demonstration purposes, I just chopped them up and put them on a plate with toothpicks nearby. Of course, first I had to open one of the jars. When I seal something, nothing gets in, not even the cook apparently! Luckily I found a strong male friend who didn't mind the salt brine soaking when he finally managed to open it! :-) I basically got two reactions: Why, that's.......interesting!?!?! (polite way of saying "Good G*d! what did I just put in my mouth? blech!) and WOW! where did you find this? this is wonderful! what would you use it for? etc. It pleased me that there was more of the second than the first. The judges were also very impressed that I was willing to go out on a limb and try something completely different (at least in QPT terms). They suggested that since, according to Pouncy, lemons were imported from Italy via Poland or from Astrakhan, that I try to trace trade routes and find if any of those countries had pickled lemons or recipes using pickled lemons, period or modern. So, does anyone have any info on trade routes to Muscovey from Italy via Poland, or Astrakham (where is Astrakham anyways?) Cariadoc,& Lord Ras, you are into Middle Eastern cooking, do you have any recipes that call for pickled lemons? I have one 1-qt. jar left here, I would like to know somethings to do with it. Lady Beatrix of Tanet Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:47:32 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - My entry to Queen's Prize Tourney > So, does anyone have any info on trade routes to Muscovey from Italy via > Poland, or Astrakham (where is Astrakham anyways?) > Cariadoc,& Lord Ras, you are into Middle Eastern cooking, do you have any > recipes that call for pickled lemons? I have one 1-qt. jar left here, I > would like to know somethings to do with it. > Lady Beatrix of Tanet The primary trade routes into the Rus were up the Don from the Black Sea, up the Volga from the Caspian Sea (Astrakhan is located on this route), and across Northern Europe from Holland through the Northern Germanic States and Poland or by sea across the Baltic (these latter being controlled by the Hanseatic League). You should also consider that in the late 15th Century under Ivan III (Ivan IV "the Terrible" became Tsar about 40 years after Ivan III's death), the Russians became very expansionist, probably because of their wars with the Tartars, and were actively opening trade routes east to the Amur, which became the Chinese-Russian border. These became very important when the Turks closed off the Mediterranean-Moscow trade in the 16th and 17th Centuries. I have no information on the extent of trade with Russia through the Ottoman Empire. The perishable nature of the lemon makes it a questionable trade good for the overland trade unless already pickled or dried. Your pickled lemons are very likely part of this trade. Lemons and oranges were delivered to England by ship in the 15th century and sold at the dock as luxury goods. Since this is the fastest way of delivering Mediterranean lemons to Russia, I really would expect if they were delivered fresh that it would be done over the Hanseatic sea route. Bear Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 21:46:31 -0800 From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com> Subject: Re: SC - camping without a cooler At 12:59 PM -0800 4/3/98, Marisa Herzog wrote: >But don't many of the things that get preserved have to be canned or contained >in some manner which is also out of period? I imagine pickled meat and other >things must be sealed into a jar or some-such? No. Pickled things are preserved by the salt and/or vinegar, not by being sterilized and kept airtight like modern canned things. We normally keep the pickled meat in a ceramic container with a ceramic lid--period technology. David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 08:05:31 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - camping without a cooler > >But don't many of the things that get preserved have to be canned or > >contained in some manner which is also out of period? I imagine pickled > >meat and other things must be sealed into a jar or some-such? > > No. Pickled things are preserved by the salt and/or vinegar, not by being > sterilized and kept airtight like modern canned things. We normally keep > the pickled meat in a ceramic container with a ceramic lid--period > technology. > > David/Cariadoc Sauerbraten is traditionally prepared in a stoneware crock. I sometimes wonder how old the practice is. I'm fairly certain it is at least medieval and possibly earlier. Bear Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 18:36:59 +1000 From: Robyn Probert <robyn.probert at lawpoint.com.au> Subject: Re: SC - Compost recipe Ras wrote: >Yep, it's mine. :-) Problem was I call it something else entirely in my modern >kitchen. :-) Sorry. The liquid measurements are accurate for the way I do it >because as the harvest season progresses I add more of the fruits and veggies >to it as the season progresses. I don't exactly know what the reduced amounts >of liquid would be. The consistency should be like a relish (maybe slightly >more liquidy so the main ingredients are submersed). Hope this helps. Here is a redaction of the same recipie from "The Medieval Cookbook" by Maggie Black, published by British Museum Press. This is a nice book which *does* include the original with the redaction. COMPOST 900g/2 lb mixed parsley roots, carrots, turnip and radishes 450g/1 lb white cabbage 450g/1 lb hard eating pears 6 Tbsp salt 1 Tsp ground ginger 1/2 Tsp saffron threads 2 cups white wine vinegar 50g/2oz currants 2 1/2 cups fruity white wine 6 Tbsp clear honey 1 Tsp french mustard 1/8 Tsp each cinnamon and pepper 1/4 Tsp each anise and fennel seed 50g/2oz white sugar Prepare the root vegetables and slice them thinly. Core and shred the cabbage. Put these vegetables into a large pan of water and bring slowly to the boil. Peel, core and cut up the pears and add them to the pan. Cook until they start to soften. Drain the contents of the pan and spread in a 5cm/2in layer in a shallow non-metallic dish. Sprinkle with the salt, saffron, ginger and 4 Tbsp of vinegar. Leave covered for 12 hours. Rinse well, then add the currants. Pack into sterilised storage jars, with at least 2.5cm/1in headspace. Put the wine and honey in a pan. Bring to simmering point and skim. Add the rest of the vinegar and all the remaining spices and sugar. Reduce the heat and stir without boiling until the sugar dissolves. Bring back to the boil. Pour over the vegetables, covering them with 1cm/ 1/2in linquid. Cover with vinegar proof seals and store. Rowan - ----------------------------------------------------------------- Robyn Probert Customer Service Manager Phone +61 2 9239 4999 Services Development Manager Fax +61 2 9221 8671 Lawpoint Pty Limited Sydney NSW Australia Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 22:48:58 -0700 From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" <acrouss at gte.net> Subject: Re: SC - Pickled things Hi all from Anne-Marie I am asked by Aislinn: > Anne-Marie, would you be willing to share your recipes for the > pickled things you mention? I've been fascinated by pickling > lately, experimenting with "the Lord's Salt" and other recipes.... > looking towards Pennsic and what I can take without > refrigeration.... the late sources (Dibgy, May, etc) pickle anything that doesnt move (and likely a few things that do). We have recipes for pickled mushrooms and capers and cukes (Apicius even does cukes in vinegar, several different ways). the other stuff is a peri-oide way to get color and crunch and flavor to the buffet table. Pickled asparagus we buy in large jars (cheap!!) at Costco, the pickled mushrooms are from the deli, or you can make your own (I use the recipe in Fanny Farmer). Pickled eggs are made by taking the juice from pickled beets, pickled onions and pickled cukes and pouring it over harboiled eggs. The pickled carrots are my own (a relic from my blue ribbon 4H days). Basically, I use the brine recipe for bread and butter pickles, plus a few medallions of fresh ginger. Parboil carrot sticks till just tender, then pack into boiling hot jars. top with boiling hot brine, and seal. We ate a one year old jar this last weekend and they were still crunchy and tasty. By the way, meat preserved with the Lords Salt is awfully tasty, especially with a strong mustard. Ours never lasted long enough to test the preservative powers, but I understand Cariadoc has done this bit of kitchen science. - --AM Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 20:52:57 -0500 From: David Friedman <ddfr at best.com> Subject: Re: SC - cucumbers in period >IIRC, there is a recipe in the Known World Handbook for vinegar marinated >cucumbers that are served in sour cream. Its quite yummy. As well, I believe >there are other recipes around. I have a question tho'. I do not experience >this bitterness you are atributing to cukes? Coiuld they be of a different >variety? > >Micaylah Unless the recipe gives its source, it is not safe to assume that just because it is in the Known World Handbook it is period. As best I recall from reading the recipe article, a lot of them were ethnic recipes which pretty clearly had not come from period sources. Here is a period recipe (13th c. Andalusian) that uses cucumbers; it's in the Miscellany. - --- A Muzawwara (Vegetarian Dish) Beneficial for Tertian Fevers and Acute Fevers Andalusian p. A-52 Take boiled peeled lentils and wash in hot water several times; put in the pot and add water without covering them; cook and then throw in pieces of gourd, or the stems [ribs] of Swiss chard, or of lettuce and its tender sprigs, or the flesh of cucumber or melon, and vinegar, coriander seed, a little cumin, Chinese cinnamon, saffron and two qiyas of fresh oil; balance with a little salt and cook. Taste, and if its flavor is pleasingly balanced between sweet and sour, [good;] and if not, reinforce until it is equalized, according to taste, and leave it to lose its heat until it is cold and then serve. 2 c lentils 1 1/2 t cinnamon one of the following: 1 1/2 lb gourd (see p. 121) 5 c water 6 threads saffron 1 lb chard or beet leaves 1/4 c cider vinegar 1/4 c oil 1 lb lettuce 3/4 t ground coriander 1 t salt 2 8" cucumbers 3/4 t cumin melon (?) Boil lentils about 40 minutes until they start to get mushy. Add spices and vinegar and oil. Add one of the vegetables; leafy vegetables should be torn up, gourd or cucumbers are cut into bite-sized pieces and cooked about 10-15 minutes before being added to lentils. Cook lettuce or chard version for about 10 minutes, until leaves are soft. Cook gourd or cucumber version about 20 minutes. Be careful not to burn during the final cooking. David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 07:15:54 -0500 From: vjarmstrong at aristotle.net (Valoise Armstrong) Subject: SC - Sauerkraut Yesterday I was reading Bernd Roeck's _Baecker, Brot und Getreide in Augsburg_ and I ran across a list of markets in the city in the mid-16th century. There was one market area specifically for sauerkraut. Still haven't found any recipes for it, but since there was a designated area for sauerkraut merchants I wonder if, in urban areas, it wasn't a guild acrivity. Valoise Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:24:05 -0400 From: Phil & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Sauerkraut Valoise Armstrong wrote: > Yesterday I was reading Bernd Roeck's _Baecker, Brot und Getreide in > Augsburg_ and I ran across a list of markets in the city in the mid-16th > century. There was one market area specifically for sauerkraut. Still > haven't found any recipes for it, but since there was a designated area for > sauerkraut merchants I wonder if, in urban areas, it wasn't a guild > acrivity. > > Valoise Umm, I don't mean to be facetious here. Really I don't. But have you ever smelled any place where large-scale production of sauerkraut was going on? I'd be inclined to think that while keeping the sauerkraut merchants apart from each other might be a good thing, another, and equally viable viewpoint might be to keep them together, at the edge of the marketplace, and preferably downwind. A couple of years ago I was in a car driven by my brother as we passed a town in upstate New York (North Norwich?) that claimed to be "The Sauerkraut Capital of the World", or some such. While I couldn't vouch for the truthfulness of the claim, I know my brother almost lost control of the car, the smell was so bad. I'm not talking about a simple sauerkraut smell here (which I actually like), this was more along the lines of a sulphurous mustard gas type of smell. In any case, while there may be some substance to the idea of a guild having their own little corner of the marketplace, there may also be some more practical reason involved. Adamantius Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 09:03:06 -0400 From: Phil & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - pickled vegetables and fruits Stefan li Rous wrote: > Looking through the pickled-food-msg file in my Florilegium, I find that > a number of the recipes don't seem to name specific vegetables. However, > I did find the following ones mentioned: > > Lemons, oranges, raisins, pears, cabbage, walnuts, white radishes, > currants, carrots, turnips, mushrooms, onions, cucumbers, lentils, chard. > > Many of these appear to be a mix of vegetables at once called compost > and not just a single vegetable at a time. Well, you know, it's an interesting thing. There's an English recipe for compost in The Forme of Cury, which appears to make a product pretty similar to the pickled nut recipe in Le Menagier de Paris, except it uses a slightly smaller variety of fruits and vegetables, all more or less in season at the same time. The recipe in Le Menagier is, well, disguised, I think, as several recipes in sequence, but it is, I think, one long, complex recipe. How closely it is expected to be followed is in question, but basically the process seems to call for making a nut pickle, then when something else on the list, that is ready for harvest or market two weeks later, is available, it is cooked and added to the original pickle, and so on. It seems likely the pickle is stored in a stone crock with a lid, and items would be dipped out of it about as frequently as they are added, but as autumn progresses the variety of the pickle grows. And, BTW, this stuff really does keep well, especially refrigerated. Of course, before we worry too much about the fact that Le Menagier's bride wouldn't have had refrigeration, we should consider the effects of storing a wet pickle in a porous stone or earthenware jar in a larder or cellar, in autmn. Maybe not 35 - 40 degrees Fahrenheit, but possibly not too far from it, either. Adamantius stgardr, East Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 15:33:35 -0600 From: Melissa Martines <mmartines at brighthorizons.com> Subject: SC - Vegetable Names Help! I am trying to redact the following recipe for compost: Compost from Curye on Inglysch pp. 120-21 "Take rote of persel, of pasternak, of rafens, scrape hem and waishe hem clene. Take rapes and caboches, ypared and icone. Take an erthen panne with clene water and set it on the fire; cast alle thise perinne. When they both boiled cast therto peeres, and perboil hem well. Take alle thise thynges and lat it kele on a faire clothe. Do therto salt; when it is cold, do hit in a vessal; take vynegar and powdour and safroun and do therto, and lat alle thise thynges lye there all night, other all day. Take wyne greke and hony, clarified together; take lumbards mustard and raisouns coraunce. All hoole, and gryne powder of canel, powder douce and aneys hole and fennel seed. Take all thise thynges and cast togyder in a pot of erthe, and take therof when thou wilt and serve it forth. I have a redaction by a Master Iain, but he leaves out some of the ingredients, and I also don't agree with him on all his interpretations of what is what. If anyone has any documentation or educated guesses about what the following items are, please let me know. Thanks in advance!! Rote of persel Rafens Rapes Caboches Also, did we ever determine if raisin of courance were currents or raisins? Morgan MacBride From: RAISYA at aol.com To: herbalist at Ansteorra.ORG Subject: HERB - Pickles Date: Thursday, November 05, 1998 4:28 PM OK, I tried this one out, and my kids say they're delicious (I don't care for pickles myself). So I thought it might be worth sharing, these could probably be canned as presents, though I guess it is a little late for cucumbers most other places <G>. "TO PRESERVE COWCUMBERS ALL THE YEERE. (DELIGHTES FOR LADIES, Sir Hugh Plat, 1609) You may take a gallon of faire water, and a pottle of veriuyce, and a pinte of bay salt, and a handfull of greene Fennell or Dill: boile it a little, and when it is cold put it into a barrell, and then put your Cowcumbers into that pickle, and you shall keepe them all the yeere." (notes - A pottle is 4 pints. Bay salt is vague, I used sea salt) I divided the quantity in half, putting a half gallon of water, a quart of apple cider vinegar (verjuice is hard to find), a cup of sea salt and a couple of tablespoons of dill and put them into a pot. Slowly, I brought it to a low boil, then removed it from the heat. When it cooled, I put the brine in a gallon jar, and added several sliced up cucumbers. I left it out on the counter overnight, then stored it in the fridge. That was about 10 - 12 days ago, we just opened them for the first time. I'll have my husband test them tonight and tell me how close they are to modern pickles. Raisya Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 21:46:43 EST From: Mordonna22 at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - pickles > > Dill Picles > > Bread and Butter Pickles Dill pickles are sharp, not sweet. Bread and Butter pickles are very sweet, with spices such as cloves. I'll have to call back home to get the recipe. Mordonna Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 12:24:08 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Apician Carrots LrdRas at aol.com wrote: > troy at asan.com writes: > << The closest I can find in Apicius is > a dish of carrots in cumin sauce, ....<snip>.... you'd have a > honey sauce for carrots. Sort of. > > Adamantius >> > > Apicius does recommend a method of storing vegetables which is taking young > vegetables and covering them with honey. I presume the honey was not > discarded in the preparation of the vegetable later on but stranger things > have been found. > > Could this be the origins of the dish? Are there any recipes in Apicius which > might provide evidence on how vegetables preserved in honey were used? And, > were carrots one of the vegetables preserved in this manner? If the honey > preservative was used and carrots were preserved in this manner then, this > may be the answer to the origins of the recipe and to the answer to why it is > attributed to Apicius. Are there any Apician scholars on the list who might > know the answers to these questions? Llewellyn, perhaps (although I am unsure > if he is still subscribed)? > > Ras There's a recipe nearly identical to medieval Compost or the French equivalent green nut preserve, in a vinegar/mustard/honey sauce. It is for turnips (rapae), though, and doesn't say whether the vegetables are preserved raw or cooked. It just says to clean them. I'm tempted to think this might be just for preserving them, though, if the turnips are indeed raw when sauced. Adamantius Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 21:26:18 PDT From: "Bonne of Traquair" <oftraquair at hotmail.com> Subject: SC - OOP pickled cherry recipe was cherry-vinegar syrup drink >Could I have the recipe for the pickled cherries? Of course! >Pickled cherries are >mentioned in SCA-period Russia, but no recipes. Alright, I could do the >legwork myself, but I'd rather have a tried-and-true recipe. Really?, if you could share info on where you've seen the mention, I'd appreciate it. Most of my canning goes to gifts at Yule, so now I know what to give two Russian gentleman of my aquaintance. It would be nice to add a note about the theoretical periodness, esp. for the teenager. The following is, of course, NOT a period recipe. Pickled Cherries From: In a Pickle or a Jam, Vicki Willder, Creative Home Library 1971 Note: these pickles go well with roast chicken, duck, or pork. 24 cups Bing cherries, about 6 lbs 4 tablespoons whole cloves 6 cups sugar 1 cup vinegar 1. Stem and pit cherries (if you don't have a cherry pitter, one of those pouring tubes for bottles of oil makes a nifty one. It looks nicer to have whole cherries instead of sliced.) 2. Tie cloves in a piece of cheesecloth (I lacked the cloth so just tossed them in.) 3. Combine cherries and remaining ingredients in a heavy kettle. 4. Heat to boiling, simmer 45 minutes. 5. Remove the spice bag, spoon hot mixture into hot sterilized jars and seal. I put the cherries in first and then filled with the vinegar syrup to 1/2 inch of top. Leftover syrup tasted pretty good but was thin. cherries had put out a lot of liquid. I simmered and tweaked the sugar and vinegar to get it to a senkajabin consistency. Then it thickened more when cool so maybe I needn't have. Bonne Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 23:10:48 -0700 From: "Robert C. Lightfoot" <celtcat at almatel.net> Subject: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #1669 > earlier this summer I posted re: my experience making pickled cherries and > making a drink syrup with the leftover pickled vinegar. Someone stated that > the pickled cherries were a traditional dish in Russia. I'd like more > information on that if the person is still around, or if anyone else has > heard this. > > Lady Bonne de Traquair > Buckston-on-Eno > Windmasters' Hill > Atlantia I'm not sure what your recipe for the cherries was, but at least one of my basic Russian cookbooks contains a recipe for marinated cherries using assorted spices, vinegar, sugar & water.[_Art of Russian Cusine_ by Anne Volokh.] _A Taste of Russia_ by Darra Goldstein {formerly _A la Russe_] also has a recipe for spiced pickeld cherries and mentions that when Peter the Great returned from Holland intent upon Westernizing Russia, he brought along the idea of serving pickled fruits with meats and this practise was well accepted. Lady Siobhan ni Ahearn Camden Tor Meridies Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 22:41:06 GMT From: kerric at pobox.alaska.net (Kerri Canepa) Subject: SC - Need help with "Compost" And I don't mean that stuff you put in your garden... I'm looking at Form of Cury and specifically at Compost. I'm having more trouble than I'd like figuring out the ingredients and cooking process. Here's the recipe as best that I can type it, considering I don't have the special characters or superscripts. Note: ? are the funny "p" character for the hard "th" sound, I'm guessing. Take rote of psel (parsley root?), pasternak of rasens (carrots? parsnips?), scrape hem and waisthe he clene, take rap (turnips) & caboch (cabbage) ypared and icorne. take an erthen pane w clene wat & set it on the fire. cast all ?ise ?inne. when ?ey buth boiled cast ?to peer (pears?) & pboile hem wel. take ?ise thyng up & lat it kele on a fair cloth, do ?to salt whan it is colde in a vessel tkae vineg (vinegar) & powdo & safron & do ?to, & lat all ?ise thing lye ?in al nyzt o? al day, take wyne greke and hony clarified togid lumbarde mustard &raisons corance al hoo. & gyne powdo of canel powdo douce & ancys (anise) hole. & fenell seed. take alle ?ise thing & cast togyd i apot of erthe. and tkae ?of whan ? wilt & sue forth. My guess is you take all the parsley root, carrots or parsnips, turnips and cabbage, chunk them up and boil them in water. Then I'm not so sure. Looks like pears are parboiled and added or just added and parboiled, the whole thing is taken out of the cooking water and let cool. When cool it's put back in a pan with salt, vinegar, and saffron where it's allowed to sit for a period of time. Then greek wine and clarified honey along with lombard mustard, dried currents, powdered cinnamon, powder douce, whole aniseed (?) and fennel seed are added. It's served at room temperature. Can anyone tell me if I'm on track or way out in left field? Anyone want to take a guess on Greek wine and Lombard mustard? Last question, it appears this is a "have it around just in case" dish; would it have been served at dinner? Kerri Cedrin Etainnighean, OL Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 03:13:14 EDT From: Korrin S DaArdain <korrin.daardain at juno.com> Subject: Re: SC - Need help with "Compost" On Fri, 01 Oct 1999 22:41:06 GMT kerric at pobox.alaska.net (Kerri Canepa) writes: >And I don't mean that stuff you put in your garden... > >I'm looking at Form of Cury and specifically at Compost. I'm having >more trouble >than I'd like figuring out the ingredients and cooking process. Here's >the ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Compost Forme of Cury 103. Copyright 1997 by L. J. Spencer, Jr. (a.k.a. Lord Ras al Zib) Posted by Lord Ras (LrdRas at aol.com). Reposted by Bronwynmgn (Bronwynmgn at aol.com) Take rote of parsel, of pasternak, rafens, scrape hem and waische hem clene. Take rapes & caboches, ypared and icorue. Take an erthen panne with clene water & set it on the fire; cast all (th)ise (th)erinne. When (th)ey buth boiled cast (th)erto peeres, & perboile hem wel. Take alle (th)ise thynges vp & lat it kele on a faire cloth. Do (th)erto salt; whan it is colde, do hit in a vessel; take vinegar & powdour & safroun & and do (th)erto, & lat alle (th)ise thynges lye (th)erin al ny(gh)t, o(th)er al day. Take wyne greke & honey, clarified togider; take lumbarde mustard & raisouns coraunce, al hoole, & gynde powdour of canel, powdour douce, anys hole, & fenell seed. Take alle (th)ise thynges & castt togyder in a pot of erthe, & take (th)erof whan (th)oui wilt & serue forth. There is a redaction in 'Pleyn Delit which, IMHO, deviates away from the original in very significant ways so I am not posting it. My translation and redaction follows: Take parsley root, parsnips, radishes, scrape them and wash them clean. Take turnips and cabbages, pared and cored. Take an earthen pan with clean water and set it on the fire; cast all this therein. When they both boiled cast therein pears, and parboil them well. Take all these things up and let it cool on a fair cloth. Do thereto salt; when it is cold, do it in a vessel; take vinegar and powder and saffron and do thereto, and let all these things lie therein all night, other(wise) all day. Take Greek wine and honey, clarified together; take Lumbard mustard and raisins of Corinth (currants ?), all whole, and grind powder of cinnamon, powder douc