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pasta-msg - 7/28/13

 

Period pasta. Period references. Recipes. Noodles, Manicotti.

 

NOTE: See also the files: pasta-gnocchi-msg, pasta-stufed-msg, fd-Italy-msg, flour-msg, dumplings-msg, cheese-msg, cheesemaking-msg.

 

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NOTICE -

 

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

 

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

 

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

 

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

 

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

 

Thank you,

    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                          Stefan at florilegium.org

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Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 15:02:21 -0800 (PST)

From: gswitzerat loop.com

To: Multiple recipients of list <sca-caidat anthrax.ecst.csuchico.edu>

Subject: [SCA-CAID:10641] Something on pasta

 

The Folklore column in today's LA Times Food Section had a short bit of

interest to the ongoing "is pasta period" debate...

 

FOLKLORE: Charles Perry

 

OLD NON-PASTA

 

Some people like to think the ancient Romans made pasta.  The Museo

degli Spaghetti in Campodassio, Liguria, promotes the idea that

macaroni was already known 2,500 years ago, when Rome was under

Etruscan rule.  The evidence is a rolling pin and a thick wire,

supposedly for rolling the macaroni around, which were found in an

Etruscan kitchen.

 

A rolling pin and a knitting needle.  Hmm, not quite smoking-gun

evidence, particularly when Renaissance Italian cookbooks make it

clear that macaroni was originally a flat noodle and that the hollow

kind developed later.

Sometimes people mention "tracta" as a candidate for Roman

noodlehood.

This Latin word basically meant a sheet of rolled-out dough (it was

called for in the making of a sort of cheese pie), but "De Re

Coquinaria," the cookbook ascribed to the 2nd century gourmet Apicius,

has a dozen recipes for which "tracta" is crumbled into boiling

liquid.

 

Unfortunately, none of these recipes says to cook the "tracta" until

done. On the contrary, the "tracta" was added as a thickener.  You

were supposed to "bind" the sauce with it ("obligas"-the sane word

when a sauce is thickened with cornstarch or eggs) and the resulting

texture was described as "smooth" ("levis").

 

Try binding a sauce with crumbled dry noodles some time and see what

you get.  For crumbling into sauce, "tracta" was probably not raw dough

but a sort of round cracker-a rather chewy, long keeping cracker like

ship's biscuit.

 

But cheer up.  Though "tracta" wasn't pasta, it might have been the

origin of the medieval practice of thickening sauces with bread

crumbs.

 

Wednesday, March 5, 1997

 

Ishido Matsukage  (who's noodles are plenty period, thanks.)

 

jstapletat adm.law.du.edu

University of Denver

College of Law

Ext. 6288

 

 

From: "S.Thomas" <morganat in-tch.com>

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 15:23:34 -0600

Subject: Re: SC - (Fwd) [SCA-CAID:10641] Something on pasta

 

Jeanne Stapleton wrote:

> The Folklore column in today's LA Times Food Section had a short bit of

> interest to the ongoing "is pasta period" debate...

                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> (snip)

 

I have a book called "Tacuinum Sanitatis", and in that book is an

illusration of some ladies hanging noodles out to dry on a rack.  They

sure look like long versions of the flat noodles you buy in the groceery

store.

 

Morgan of Hawksreach

 

 

From: Dottie Elliott <macdjat onr.com>

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 97 16:49:17 -0500

Subject: Re: SC - (Fwd) [SCA-CAID:10641] Something on pasta

 

Flat pasta is period. There are several recipes that I know of that talk

about how to make flat noodles. I haven't seen anything about round

noodles (spaghetti), hollow noodles (macaroni, manacoti, etc) though.

 

Clarissa

 

 

From: Uduidoat aol.com

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 09:56:45 -0400 (EDT)

Subject: SC - Manicotti

 

<< Flat pasta is period. There are several recipes that I know of that talk

about how to make flat noodles. I haven't seen anything about round

noodles (spaghetti), hollow noodles (macaroni, manacoti, etc) though. >>

 

I agree with your observations about flat pasta. However, since manicotti is

a type of crepe that is wrapped around a filling, I don't quite follow your

reason for listing it as a "noodle". I certainly hope you were not referring

to the giant macaroni abominations that are available in supermarkets and say

"manicotti" on the box!

 

If you were making a reference to that particular yuck-stuff, I would like to

point out that whoever named it manicotti had never eaten the real thing. And

it's resemblance to real manicotti is at best illusory. It doesn't even begin

to find a common ground in the flavor category and , thankfully, you are

correct that that particular product is NOT period. However, since crepes and

fillings are period, I would venture to put forth the opinion that "real

crepe-type manicotti" probably is period. Has anyone done research in this

area?

 

Lord Ras

 

 

From: "Philip W. Troy" <troyat asan.com>

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:44:59 -0400

Subject: Re: SC - Manicotti

 

Uduidoat aol.com wrote:

> << Flat pasta is period. There are several recipes that I know of that talk

> about how to make flat noodles. I haven't seen anything about round

> noodles (spaghetti), hollow noodles (macaroni, manacoti, etc) though. >>

>

> I agree with your observations about flat pasta. However, since manicotti is

> a type of crepe that is wrapped around a filling, I don't quite follow your

> reason for listing it as a "noodle".

 

One line of reasoning considers manicotti to be a large tube of pasta.

As such it is made by extrusion and is therefore almost certainly not

used in Europe in period. I'm willing to at least acknowledge the

existence of dry manicotti pasta because I consider the fresh crepe with

stuffing to be canneloni, which I prefer.

 

> If you were making a reference to that particular yuck-stuff, I would like to

> point out that whoever named it manicotti had never eaten the real thing. And

> it's resemblance to real manicotti is at best illusory. It doesn't even begin

> to find a common ground in the flavor category and , thankfully, you are

> correct that that particular product is NOT period. However, since crepes and

> fillings are period, I would venture to put forth the opinion that "real

> crepe-type manicotti" probably is period. Has anyone done research in this

> area?

 

Let me preface all this with the statement that I am in no way an

authority on period Italian pasta dishes. I do know a bit about period

non-Italian pastas, and you can judge the value of what I say by

considering my rather narrow focus.

 

One interesting thing I've found about the period pasta dishes I've

encountered is the apparent fact that the common modern Italian practice

of some kind of second cooking seems to be entirely absent. so, things

like loseyns aren't baked after assembly, in spite of otherwise

resembling lasgna in many respects.

 

My hunch (and it is no more than that) is that while crepes were often

eaten in period, the idea of rolling them around a stuffing is rare, at

least as far as official recognition by a recipe goes. Spooning some of

your stew into one and folding/rolling it up might have occurred on a

case-by-case basis, but I haven't seen recipes that include this

process. I get the impression that serving a stuffed crepe with a sauce

is pretty modern too. I think a dish like this would be eaten with the

fingers if at all, so the idea of the whole gratineed crepe in sauce

thing seems unlikely.

 

So, the best I can really say is that I don't know. Normally I don't

bother posting an "I don't know", but in this case I have deep

suspicions. This may well be one of those things that existed but for

which we have no surviving recipe from period (as is the case with the

Scots-Highland version of haggis, for instance). I actually love this

sort of thing and would be deeply pleased to be proven wrong.

 

Wish I had a copy of Platina right now...

 

Adamantius

> Lord Ras

 

 

From: david friedman <ddfrat best.com>

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:45:18 -0700 (PDT)

Subject: Re: SC - (Fwd) [SCA-CAID:10641] Something on pasta

 

Jeanne Stapleton wrote:

> The Folklore column in today's LA Times Food Section had a short bit of

> interest to the ongoing "is pasta period" debate...

                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I don't think anyone is arguing that pasta isn't period, given how often it

appears in the period cookbooks (losyns in 14th c. England, macaroni in

Platina, Rishta et. al. in the Islamic). The point of the Charles Perry

article is that there is no good evidence that it existed in classical

antiquity.

 

David/Cariadoc

http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

 

 

From: david friedman <ddfrat best.com>

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 10:40:26 -0700 (PDT)

Subject: Re: SC - Manicotti

 

>> << Flat pasta is period. There are several recipes that I know of that talk

>> about how to make flat noodles. I haven't seen anything about round

>> noodles (spaghetti), hollow noodles (macaroni, manacoti, etc) though. >>

 

Platina refers to a hollow noodle; I believe he says you use a needle to

hollow it out, but it's late and our copies are downstairs. There are also

period ravioli like things. I'm pretty sure that some of the Islamic pasta

are round, or at least described as threads.

 

David/Cariadoc

 

David Friedman

Professor of Law

Santa Clara University

ddfrat best.com

http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

 

 

From: gfroseat cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter)

Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 18:08:02 -0500

Subject: Re:  SC - Italian Torte

 

Hi, Katerine here.  Christina of Riesling asks about a torta:

 

>The torta is completely encased in a crust and inside are layers of

>cheese (mozzarella, Parmesan, feta), vegetables (spinach, roasted

>peppers, and thinly sliced ham.

 

I'm no expert of Italian, but here's my first-pass take.  There are

cheese tortas, and spinach ones.  I believe that there's a spinach

torta that calls for cheese.  I know of no layered Italian tortas,

nor do I know of ones with a top crust.  The peppers are new world.

I know of none that call for ham.

 

If you lose the peppers, it's better than a a lot of stuff that

gets served at feasts.  If you lose the top crust and the ham, better

yet.

 

Cheers,

- -- Katerine/Terry

 

 

Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 11:33:41 -0400

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troyat asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - The siege cook challenge.

 

Michael Macchione wrote:

> Uhm,  I think I should describe the pasta maker.  It doesn't really

> extrude the pasta like a meat grinder extrudes ground beef.  It cannot be

> used to make macaroni, or any other hollow pasta.  It can be used to

> "roll" the pasta dough to the desired thickness, and can then be fed

> through some "cutters" to slice the pasta to the desired width (either

> fettucine or spaghetti widths).  It doesn't appear that hard to use.  It

> definitely could be used to make the pasta for ravioli which you could

> then fill and fold by hand.

>

> Kael

 

Another thing such machines are good for (that I don't think the

instructions mention to any great extent) is kneading the dough.

Developing a decent amount of gluten is essential for most pastas, and

the more gluten there is, the harder it is to knead effectively. So, you

can pat your firm dough by hand into a flat rectangle the right size to

fit through your rollers at the thickest setting, run it through several

times, each time taking your sheet, folding it into three like a letter,

and rotating it 90 degrees. In some respects not unlike making puff

pastry or Damascus steel. You keep doing this until your dough is

smooth, elastic, slightly shiny, and not sticky. Then you roll it and

cut it whatever way you want.

 

I have a pasta machine of the Mia Cucina brand (which means, more or

less, that it is of an unspecified brand imported from Italy by Macy's)

which has a ravioli-stuffing widget. Trouble is, it comes with a couple

of filling recipes, and the gadget only seems to work with those

fillings. You need to have just the right texture for your filling or

the whole project ends up in the trash.

 

As regards the period pasta recipe issue, there are numerous variations

on the pasta/butter/cheese theme (real fettucine Alfredo being the

direct linear descendant), and the various filled pastas. Several people

have gone into this subject already, and I don't really have anything to

add. However, in the Wild Undocumentable Rumor Department, I recall

reading (In the New York Times, so it MUST be true ;  )  ) about a

Southern Italian Renaissance pasta dish, consisting of pasta of an

unspecified shape, sauced with sauteed orange segments, butter,

caramelized sugar and toasted almonds. Can't say whether this bears any

relation to reality, though.

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 11:37:33 -0500

From: gfroseat cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter)

Subject: Re: SC - The siege cook challenge.

 

Hi, Katerine here.  Kael writes:

 

>Uhm, I think I should describe the pasta maker.  It doesn't really

>extrude the pasta like a meat grinder extrudes ground beef.  It cannot be

>used to make macaroni, or any other hollow pasta.  It can be used to

>"roll" the pasta dough to the desired thickness, and can then be fed

>through some "cutters" to slice the pasta to the desired width (either

>fettucine or spaghetti widths).  It doesn't appear that hard to use.  It

>definitely could be used to make the pasta for ravioli which you could

>then fill and fold by hand.

 

Ah. No personal experience with pasta makers.  Well, in that case, she'd

probably get three different sorts of ravieles, losens, and macrows, with

the latter made differently enough (i.e. sufficiently different preparations

and sauces) not to look just like two different shapes of noodles.

 

I might also include, among the ravieles, at least one recipe that fries

after boiling.

 

Cheers,

- -- Katerine/Terry

 

 

Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 10:44:48 -0700 (PDT)

From: rousseauat scn.org (Anne-Marie Rousseau)

Subject: Re: SC - The siege cook challenge.

 

Katerine suggests pasta recipes that are fried...

 

mmm....like kuskenoles/rissoles? These are scattered through the French

and English corpus. Dried fruit (figs, dates, raisens), some fresh fruit

(apples, grapes, pears), nuts (almonds, pine nuts, etc) and spices. Big

ones are baked as pies, little ones are fried like little MacDOnald Apple

Pies.

 

Yum!!

- --Anne-Marie, who ate some a few nights ago at Culinary Guild.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Anne-Marie Rousseau

rousseauat scn.org

Seattle, Washington

 

 

Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:19:07 -0500

From: skunkkillerat juno.com (Donna J. White)

Subject: Re: SC - The siege cook challenge.

 

The ":Pampered Chef" company sells a crimper that works well with my

pasta machine.  It allows you to make several sized of ravioli.  I

actually figured out it could be used for more than that when my

well-meaning mother bought me a set.  She uses hers to make tarts.

I decided it would be neat to try it on chinese dumplings -- folding the

dough hurts my hands (arthritis).  This little contraption really did

the trick.  They sell their wares like Tupperware -- through home

parties. They are all over the country and hopefully should not be hard

to find.  I will see if I have the company information and send it to you

if you like.

 

They have some really neat stuff for meat tarts too and bread (tube molds

and the like).

 

Genevieve.

 

 

Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 03:55:30 -0500

From: gfroseat cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter)

Subject: Re: SC - The siege cook challenge.

 

Hi, Katerine here.  Carla asks whether Platina gives directions for making

hollow pasta.  From the Elizabeth Bauermann Andrews translation:

 

        White flour, moistened with the white of an egg and

        rosewater, should be well ground.  Roll this into

        slender bits like a straw, stretched to the length

        of half a foot.  With a very thin iron stylus, scrape

        out the middle.  Then, as you remove the iron, you

        leave them hollow.  Then, spread out just so and dried

        in the sun, they will last for two or three years.

        Indeed especially if they are made in the month of the

        August moon.  They should be cooked in rich juice and

        poured into dishes and sprinkled with grated cheese,

        fresh butter, and mild herbs.  This dish needs to be

        cooked for two hours.

 

Macaroni and cheese, fifteenth century Italian style!

 

Cheers,

- -- Katerine/Terry

 

 

Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 11:55:51 -0400 (EDT)

From: Stephen Bloch <sblochat adl15.adelphi.edu>

Subject: Re: SC - semolina and mixed herbs

 

Clare St. John writes:

>         Does anyone know how long semolina has been in use or if there is a

> period reference for it?

 

Semolina appears in 13th-century Andalusian cooking, at least if Huici

Miranda, the 20th-century editor and translator (into Spanish) is to be

believed. Some of the recipes in the _manuscrito anonimo_ (Cariadoc's

collection, volume 2) specifically call for it.

 

                                      mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib

                                                Stephen Bloch

                                          sblochat panther.adelphi.edu

 

 

Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 19:57:48 -0400

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troyat asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - The siege cook challenge.

 

Terry Nutter wrote:

> Carla asks whether Platina gives directions for making

> hollow pasta.  From the Elizabeth Bauermann Andrews translation:

>

>         White flour, moistened with the white of an egg and

>         rosewater, should be well ground.  Roll this into

>         slender bits like a straw, stretched to the length

>         of half a foot.  With a very thin iron stylus, scrape

>         out the middle.  Then, as you remove the iron, you

>         leave them hollow.  Then, spread out just so and dried

>         in the sun, they will last for two or three years.

>         Indeed especially if they are made in the month of the

>         August moon.  They should be cooked in rich juice and

>         poured into dishes and sprinkled with grated cheese,

>         fresh butter, and mild herbs.  This dish needs to be

>         cooked for two hours.

>

> -- Katerine/Terry

 

This is some pretty fascinating stuff! I suspect that the hole is there

mostly so that it will cook in two hours or less. Not unlike

perciatelli, which is unlike most tubular pasta in that the hole doesn't

provide much increase in sauce-bearing surface area. The two-hour

cooking time also suggests that this pasta is quite thick by modern

standards, and there would be a noticeable difference in the texture of

this pasta over what most of us are used to. Not a problem, of course. A

long cooking time, often in pretty minimal liquid, is perfectly

consistent with several pasta recipes up until the nineteenth century.

 

I do have a question about the translation, though. What's the original

for the translated term, "rich juice" ? Are we talking about stock? I

wonder if this is another example of the mysterious liquamen, which has

a different meaning for Platina than for Apicius. Any info avilable on

this?

 

Adamantius

 

 

From: zarlorat acm.org (Lenny Zimmermann)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Pasta in 16th Century

Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 21:45:01 GMT

 

On 8 Sep 1997 13:20:50 -0400, Charles Olszewski wrote:

>To what extent, if at all, was pasta in use in cooking in the early 16th Century in northern Italy? If used, what kind(s) were prevalent? Areas such as       Venice and Milan, and Trent (in the Holy Roman Empire) are of concern.

 

I cannot say what the prevalence might have been, in toto, but it most

certainly was known and used. Duke Cariadoc mentioned Platina, which

was published in 1475 in Venice. Platina lists macaroni, as was

mentioned, as well as Noodles. In the entry on Noodles he mentions

that they last, when dried, for "two years and even longer." He also

states in some further discussion of cooking noddles and what to put

on them, "And the same thing is true of cooking all dishes made from

paste:" Which implies that pasta noodles and macaroni were not the

only pasta styles used in dishes of the time.

 

By 1610 Bartolomeo Scappi, again published in Venice, shows pictures

of items used in the kitchen to include more than a few utensils used

in making pasta. I am looking into translating Cristoforo di

Messisbugo (Venice, 1549) so I am unsure as to his use of pasta. My

readings suggests it certainly was available and used, if not commonly

so. If you want more details on Platina's recipes, let me know in

e-mail and I'll jot them off to you.

 

Honos Servio,

Lionardo Acquistapace, Barony of Bjornsborg, Ansteorra

(mka Lenny Zimmermann, San Antonio, TX)

zarlorat acm.org

 

 

Date: 19 Sep 1997 14:38:26 -0700

From: "Marisa Herzog" <marisa_herzogat macmail.ucsc.edu>

Subject: SC - noodles

 

<snip>

I have a noodle question.  I haven't seen any references to noodles with

herbs worked into the dough.  I was thinking of doing a sage flavored

noodle as a side dish for both chicken and pork.  Any ideas?

<snip>

 

I have somewhere in one of my women's history books a recipe for flavored

noodles that are flavored with -carrot-.  One of the sections in the book is

health and has great little snippets like "if your wife has the urge to eat

chalk or dirt, feed her more beans" (vitamin/mineral deficiency?).  The noodle

recipe is from something by a period medical somebody (name starts with T?)

- -brid

 

 

Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:32:47 -0500

From: mfgunterat tddeng00.fnts.com (Michael F. Gunter)

Subject: SC - Field Expedient Noodles

 

On the subject of noodles I would like to mention one of my favorite substitutes

for good homemade noodles.  Slice flour tortillas into long thin strips and

add them to broth.  I can make a pretty good chicken noodle soup using canned

chicken broth, store bought roasted chicken, and tortillas.  Boil up some

veggies in the broth if desired, add the boned chicken and tortillas and

Serve It Forth.  Total time: Less than 30 minutes.

 

Gunthar

 

 

Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:51:52 -0500

From: Maddie Teller-Kook <meadhbhat io.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Field Expedient Noodles

 

Michael F. Gunter wrote:

> On the subject of noodles I would like to mention one of my favorite substitutes

> for good homemade noodles.  Slice flour tortillas into long thin strips and

> add them to broth.  I can make a pretty good chicken noodle soup using canned

> chicken broth, store bought roasted chicken, and tortillas.  Boil up some

> veggies in the broth if desired, add the boned chicken and tortillas and

> Serve It Forth.  Total time: Less than 30 minutes.

>

> Gunthar

 

The one major difference here Gunthar.... I would use fresh noodles

(very available at most grocery stores).  Tortillas have a different

texture and taste than noodles will.  Granted your soup sounds good,

BUT, I would stick with pasta.

 

meadhbh

 

 

Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 01:28:21 -0800

From: david friedman <ddfrat best.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Cassoulet

 

> much like the noodles that Marco Polo brought back from China,  >>

 

Meaning that the common use of new world beans in 16th century Europe is as

mythical as the attribution of noodles to Marco Polo?

 

The earliest post-Roman European cookbooks we have are roughly contemporary

with Marco Polo, and contain pasta. So do Islamic cookbooks from pre-Marco

Polo. I don't know what the origin of this particular belief is, but it

seems very unlikely that it is true.

 

David/Cariadoc

 

 

Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 12:38:56 SAST-2

From: "Ian van Tets" <ivantetsat botzoo.uct.ac.za>

Subject: SC - Comfits, recipe diagrams and foiles

 

Hi, Cairistiona here.

 

<snip of comfit recipe>

 

2. In _Two Anglo-Norman Culinary Collections..._ (Hieatt and Jones,

Speculum 61/4, 1986),  there is another recipe with a diagram.  I

think someone was asking about this kind of this recently?  There are

no dots, unfortunately, but an 8x4 grid is drawn for the recipe for

Cressee, in the first collection (p. 863).  The authors feel (p.

869), that the 'noodles are apparently to be served with one colour

crossed over the other:  hence the name of the dish.  To prepare the

cressee, the noodles are cut to the appropriate size, then stretched

to form the characteristic crisscross'.

 

The recipe:  'E une autre viaunde, ke ada a noun cressee.  Pernez

flur demeyne e des oefs e festes past, e metez dedenz le past bon

gingivre trie [sorry, can't give you e acute] e sucre e saffran;  e

pernez la moyte [acute] de cel past colore [acute] de saffran e la

myte [ac.] blaunc, e festes rouler sur une table a la graundur de

vostre dei;  e puys festes goboner a la graundur de une piere de

late; e puys festes trere sur une table en meimes la manere cum est

ceste forme: [hand-drawn 8x4 grid, not at all even];  e puys festes

boiller en ewe;  e puys pernez une quiller perce [ac.] parmy, si

pernez hors cel cressez de l'ewe;  e puys pernez formage mye [ac.]

desus e desuz, e metez bure ou oile, e puys dressez.

 

B.L. Add. 32085, which contains nothing later than early documents

from the early part of the reign of Edward 1 (1272-1307), according

to the authors.

 

Recipe translated:

Here is another dish, which is called cressee.  Take best white four

and eggs, and make pasta dough; and in the pasta dough put fine,

choice ginger and sugar.  Take half of the pastry, which is coloured

with saffron, and half white, and roll it out on a table to the

thickness of you finger, then cut into strips the size of a piece of

lath; stretch it out on a table as illustrated, then boil in water;  

then take a slotted spoon abd remove the cressees from the water;  

then arrange them on, and cover them with, grated cheese, add butter

or oil, and serve.

 

 

3. Does Maggie Black have any precedent for directing foiles to be

rolled up like a spring roll or strudel?  All I can find is that

foile meant very thin pastry.  Other translations (for other recipes)

that I have found have not recommended this, but suggested folding

over, like pasties, before frying or boiling.  Black says, at least

twice, to put a small piece of the filling on the end of a strip of

pastry, then to roll the whole piece up (which mught be 8 inches

long) and seal.  Where does she get this definition?

 

Thanks

Cairistiona

 

 

Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 11:02:45 -0400

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troyat spambegone.asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Pasta shells

 

Decker, Terry D. wrote:

> I can place place flat noodles and ravioli (or equivalent) in period.  I

> have a source that places extruded pasta like vermicelli about 1400.  I

> have absolutely nothing on shell pasta.  Anyone have any references or

> ideas?

 

Well, there is a type of gnocchi called, I think, cavatelli (unless this

is the name of another type of pasta and I'm getting them confused...are

cavatelli the ones shaped like pea pods?). In any case, the pasta in

question is traditionally hand made today by placing a little ball of

dough against the floured handle of a wooden spoon, and pressing against

it with the concave side of a fork, giving it a smooth, concave inside,

and a convex, ridged outside. Much like a cockle or conch shell.

 

The fact that it can be made without extrusion does not, of course,

prove it is period, but it is a method that could easily have been

employed. The fact that forks with more than two or three tines, even in

civilised Italy, would have been rare, is a bit of a logical obstacle,

too.

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:10:46 EST

From: LrdRas <LrdRasat aol.com>

Subject: SC - Stroganoff

 

acroussat gte.net writes:

<< Beef Stroganoff

has no out of period ingredients in it, but its not even close to medieval

in concept >>

 

I must take exception to this observation. There are extant examples of

recipes from the Middle East that incorporate the "stroganoff" concept.

Granted, they use "Persian milk" (e.g. yogurt) in place of sour cream and do

not have a noodle base.

 

Only this past Friday I served a "sroganoff"-like dish at supper from al-

Bahgdadi which consisted of  lamb, onions, mint and other seasoning mixed with

yogurt. To all intent and purposes it looked like and tasted very similar to

it's stroganoff counterparts and was period (10th century, IIRC).

 

Ras

 

 

Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:21:24 -0500 (EST)

From: Michael Macchione <ghesmizat UDel.Edu>

Subject: Re: SC - Stroganoff

 

I got this recipe from

Cariadoc's miscellany, and cooked it at an event last June,  It is a

wonderful dish, that cooks a lot like a stroganoff.

 

kael

 

- ----------------

[This is an article from Cariadoc's Miscellany. The Miscellany is Copyright

(c) by David Friedman and Elizabeth Cook, 1988, 1990, 1992. For copying

details, see the Miscellany Introduction.]

 

Salma

 

Ibn al-Mabrad p. 20/D4

 

Dough is taken and twisted and cut in small pieces and struck like a coin

with a finger, and it is cooked in water until done. Then yoghurt is put

with it and meat is fried with onion for it and mint and garlic are put with

it.

 

1 c flour

about 1/4 c water

1/2 c plain yogurt

5 ounces meat (lamb)

1/2 oz tail (lamb fat)

1 small to medium onion = 1/4 lb

1 T mint

2-4 cloves crushed garlic

[1/2 t salt]

 

Knead flour and water to a smooth dough. Divide it in about 8 equal

portions. Take each one, roll it between your palms into a string about 1/2

inch in diameter, twist it a little, then cut it in about 1/4" slices. Dump

slices in a little flour to keep them from sticking. Take each slice and

squeeze it between your fingers into a flat, roughly round, coin shaped

piece. Boil in 1 quart slightly salted water about 10 minutes.

 

About the same time you put the pasta on to boil, fry the onions and lamb,

both cut small, in the tail (i.e. lamb fat) or other oil. Drain the pasta,

combine all ingredients, and serve.

 

 

From: Argente <Argenteat aol.com>

To: sca-eastat world.std.com

Subject: [EK] Dessert Lasagna [14th century]

Date: Thu, 22 Jan 98 14:17:25 +0000

 

This is the first time I have seen yr request. Found one recipe in my

collection of many, many books. Source Horizon History of Cooking, mid 1960's,

p 716

 

1 lb lasagne noodles, broken into bite sized pieces

2 cups ricotta or cottage cheese, well drained

1 cup heavy cream

3 egg yolks

2 tbl sugar

1/4 cup currants [optional]

pinch salt

crumb topping

 

cook broken lasagne noodles in lightly salted water until tender. drain well.

mix cheese with cream, egg yolks, sugar currants, and salt. butter an 8 cup

couffle dish. turn noodles into dish and mix thoroughly with cheese. sprinkle

crumb topping over noodles. bake 425F for 40 min or until cheese is set and top

is golden. serves 8

 

This recipe from Francesco di Marco Datini, a fourteenth centru fabric

merchant and Renaissance Prato's leading citizen.

 

topping

 

1/4 c butter

1/4 c sugar

1 tsp powdered cinnamon

1/2 c coarsely chopped walnuts or pecans [optional]

1/2 to 3/4 cup flour

 

cream butter with sugar and cinnamon. add nuts. add flour gradually, stirring

until mixture is crumbly. use as topping. make about 1.5 cups.

 

 

Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 13:02:10 -0800

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryDat Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - [fwd]  Medieval pasta

 

Since I'm taking a break, reading Trager's The Food Chronology, let's see

what he has to say about the history of pasta.

 

1279 CE - The inventory of the estate of a Genoese soldier lists a basket of

macaronis.

 

Marco Polo refers to paste a lasagne.

 

1400 CE - Extruded pasta (vermicelli) is being made in Naples.

 

1475 CE - Platina gives a recipe for pasta in Concerning Honest Pleasure and

Physical Wellbeing.

 

1607 CE - Hugh Plat describes pasta as hollow pipes of wafer, called

macarone by the Italians, in his Certain Philosophical Preparations of Food

and Beverage for Sea-men.

 

Information about the Platina recipe and a recipe for ravioli from the 1553

Das Kochbuch der Sabrina Welserin can be found in the food section of

Stefan's Florilegium at:

 

http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/rialto/rialto.html

 

Bon Chance

Bear

 

 

Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:46:14 +0000

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harperat idt.net>

Subject: Re: SC - [fwd]  Medieval pasta

 

The "Libro de Guisados" has a recipe for "Potaje de Fideos" which is

soup with pasta.  I do not know what medieval fideos were like;

modern Spanish dictionaries and cookbooks suggest vermicelli as the

closest match.  The recipe, BTW, calls for the fideos to be cooked in

well-salted chicken or mutton broth, along with a piece of sugar.

Milk is added to the broth (goat, sheep or almond), and the

omnipresent cinnamon-and-sugar are sprinkled on top before serving.

 

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain of Tethba

Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom

mka Robin Carroll-Mann *** harper at  idt.net

 

 

Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:04:45 -0800

From: david friedman <ddfrat best.com>

Subject: RE: SC - [fwd]  Medieval pasta

 

You might want to add c. 1224, Rishta (at least) appears in _al-Baghdadi_.

I think there are pasta recipes in the 10th c. collection as well, but I'm

not sure.

 

David Friedman

 

 

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:36:17 +0000

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harperat idt.net>

Subject: SC - Recipe: Potaje de Fideos -- Noodle Soup (was: Medieval Pasta)

 

I was asked to post the recipe for Potaje de Fideos.  This is from

the 1529 edition of the Spanish "Libro de Guisados" by Ruperto de

Nola. The translation is mine.

 

POTAJE DE FIDEOS* (Pottage of Noodles)

 

Clean the fideos of the dirt which they have** and when they are well

cleaned put them on the fire in a very clean pot with good fatty

broth of chicken or mutton which is well salted and when the

broth begins to boil, cast the fideos in the pot with a piece of

sugar, and when they are more than half cooked, cast into the pot

with the chicken or mutton broth, milk of goats or sheep, or in place

of those, almond milk, for that can never be lacking, and cook it all

well together, and when the fideos are cooked remove the pot from the

fire and let it rest a bit and prepare dishes, casting sugar and

cinnamon upon them; but as I have said in the chapter on rice, there

are many who say concerning pottages of this kind which are cooked

with meat broth that one should cast in neither sugar nor milk, but

this is according to each one's appetite, and in truth, with fideos

or rice cooked with meat broth, it is better to cast grated cheese on

the dishes, which is very good.

 

* My modern Spanish dictionary translate "fideos" as "vermicelli"; I

do not know what medieval fideos were like.

 

**I suspect this phrase is a scribal error.  An almost identical

phrase is at the beginning of the previous recipe, which is for baked

rice. *There* it makes sense; even today, packages of rice

have instructions to check it for small pebbles and other

impurities. I cannot see why pasta would need cleaning.

 

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain of Tethba

Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom

mka Robin Carroll-Mann *** harper at  idt.net

 

 

Subject: period noodles

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:48:10 -0500

From: Stephen Dale <sdaleat mail.tqci.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

 

While others debate if noodles and macaroni are period for Italians,

Russia started using noodles after the Mongols invaded in 1240.

According to Lesley Chamberlain, author of

_The_Food_and_Cooking_of_Russia_, Russian noodles were made with white

wheat flour or buckwheat and wheat mixed together. Soba noodles would

probably be a good modern equivalent. Chamberlain states that noodles

are eaten in mushroom or chicken broth (similar to ramen?) or in spiced

milk. Another Russian cookbook I have mixes hot noodles with cottage

cheese and butter.

 

Aislinn Columba of Carlisle

aka Nadya Petrovna Stoianova

 

 

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:15:55 -0800From: david friedman <ddfrat best.com>Subject: Re: SC - [fwd]  Medieval pastaA query about pasta was forwarded from the Drachenwald mailing list:>I am trying to locate any medieval pasta recipes. I'm mainly interested in>any kind of sauce that they used. Also, what kind of pasta is period? I know>that spagetti is not!>>Valeria delle StelleOur _Miscellany_ (next-to-last edition is webbed--search for Cariadoc) hasseveral pasta recipes.  From memory:Rishta (13th c. Islamic), which is long thin noodles, has a sauce of meat,lentils, chickpeas and cinnamon.  Salma (coin-shaped pasta) and Shushbarak(ravioli) both have a sauce of yogurt, mint and garlic (15th c. Islamic).Macrows ("Take and make a thin foil of dough, and carve it on pieces..."),Ravioles (cheese ravioli) and Losyns (also flat noodles) are served withcheese and butter with poudre douce; also, there is a fast-day Losengesserved with an almond-milk sauce (all of these are 14th-15th c English).Platina (15th c. Italian) has recipes for both noodles and macaroni, servedwith cheese.Elizabeth of Dendermonde/Betty Cook

 

 

Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 10:55:04 -0500

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troyat asan.com>

Subject: SC - Period Pasta recipes...

 

To add to the fun, don't forget the 14th-century English recipe for

Hares in Papdele, found in The Forme of Cury. It is essentially a

boneless hare stew, cooked in broth, and stacked up with either wafers

_or_ loseyns, apparently. I'd be vastly surprised to find that Papdele

isn't a cognate of the Italian wide noodle, pappardelle.

 

What I find especially intriguing is that a strikingly similar dish of

duck stew (with additions like tomato and red wine added to the basic

reduced broth sauce) is served over pappardelle in the well-known New

York restaurant Felidia. Chef/owner Lydia Bastianich claims the dish is

a traditional import from Trieste... .

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 18:57:02 -0600

From: vjarmstrongat aristotle.net (Valoise Armstrong)

Subject: Re: SC - Raviolis, tortellini and fritters

 

Christi Redeker asked about fried and filled pasta. I don't know in depth

about other cultures, but there is at least one late-period fried German

pasta example. From Das Kochbuch der Sabina Welserin is a cheese-filling

wrapped inside an egg dough and fried. Sabina's ravioli are, however,

boiled in broth, not fried.

 

173   How Shrove-Tuesday doughnuts are made in Nuremberg

 

       Grate Parmesan cheese or any other cheese which is quite dry. Beat

eggs into it and also mix a little good wheat flour with it so that the

doughnuts do not become too crisp from the cheese. Make the dough firm

enough that it does not run. After that make an egg dough as for a tart,

make long narrow flat cakes and with a spoon lay a small lump of cheese

dough, as large as you would like to have it, in the middle of the flat

cake and wrap it over. And with both thumbs press each heap well into the

flat cake forming a small bun, then cut it off with a small metal blade.

When you would fry them, you should not let the fat become too hot, instead

just after it has melted, lay quite a few of them in the pan, fry them

slowly. Shake the pan, then they will become like marbles.

 

Valoise

 

 

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 11:46:18 -0500

From: Christi Redeker <Christi.Redekerat digital.com>

Subject: SC - Ravioli, Tortelli, and Fritters (Long)

 

I have the book at work now.  I am posting (in this order) the original, the

translation and the explanation about the words being interchangeable.

 

>From The Original Mediterranean Cuisine, by Barbara Santich

 

DE' CRISPELLE DI CARNE, O VERO TORTELLI E RAVIOLI

(LIBRO DELLA COCINA)

 

Prendi ventresca di porco scorticata, lessala, e triala forte col coltello:

togli erbe odorifere in bona quantità, e pestale forte nel mortaio: mettivi

su del cascio fresco con esse et un poco di farina, e distempera con albume

d'ova, sì che sia duro.  E preso del grasso del porco fresco in bona

quantità, metti ne la padella, sí che bolla, e fane crispelli; e cotti, e

cavati, mettivi su del zuccaro.

 

The Translation:

MEAT FRITTERS, ALSO KNOWN AS TORTELLI AND RAVIOLI

 

Take streaky pancetta, boil it, and chop finely with a knife: take a good

quantity of aromatic herbs, and grind them in a mortar: add some fresh

cheese and a little flour , and add egg whies to make a firm mixture.  Then

take a good quantity of fresh pork fat, put it in the frying pan, and when

it boils, make fritters; and when they are cooked, take them out and

sprinkle with sugar.

 

The explanation:

 

"The names tortelli and ravioli were applied indiscriminately in the

fifteenth century, both to the filled pasta shapes that we know today, which

were always cooked in broth and served with grated parmesan, and to fritters

like these, which were fried and served with sugar or honey.  Admittedly the

basic mixtures were often similar - purées or pastes of cheese, eggs, cooked

vegetables or meat or fish - but the cooking processes were quite different.

It's not so much that people were careless in their use of language, but

there was general confusion until filled pasta became widespread and

appropriated the names.  As their name suggests, these medieval totally

derived from the larger torte, and had very similar fillings."

 

We have already discussed how there are recipes for fillings wrapped in

pasta and then boiled.  Does anyone else have a recipe for fritters where

they were called tortelli or ravioli?

 

Murkial

 

Christi Redeker

Digital Equipment Corporation

Colorado Springs, Colorado

719/592-4504

christi.redekerat digital.com

 

 

Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 00:37:13 -0700

From: david friedman <ddfrat best.com>

Subject: Re: SC - autumn feast report (long)

 

At 5:55 AM +0000 5/4/98, Kornelis Sietsma wrote:

>The next dish was fresh Pasta with Cheese.  I had some foolish volunteers

>who offered to make pasta, so they spent several hours during the day

>mixing dough and drying strips of pasta on clothes-horses.

 

One of the virtues of dried pasta is that you can make it and dry it days

in advance--which is what we have done for Pennsic.

 

David/Cariadoc

http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

 

 

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:13:31 -0400

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troyat asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Seeking wheat illumination -  OOP

 

Christina Nevin wrote:

> I've never made pasta before so thought I may as well do it right the first

> time and use durum wheat. Problem is, I can't find any. Now I know semolina

> is made of durum wheat, so my question (which is probably a stupid one, but

> never mind) is this: is there a difference? That is to say, can I make pasta

> out of the semolina, or should I keep looking for durum wheat? It looks a

> bit granular to make dough from. Any suggestions appreciated!

>

> Lucretzia

 

If you're talking about the granular semolina _flour_, and not couscous

or something, you can indeed make pasta from it, but you need to be sure

to knead the bejeezus out of it. Many new pasta makers miss this

essential [read that to mean, I did]. Use the rollers on your machine to

knead your dough until it is smooth, elastic, and almost shiny, like

satin. If the outside surface looks granular, you may need to add a tiny

bit more water, but the trick is to roll out the dough flat, with your

machine, then fold it like puff pastry or something similar, to evenly

distribute the gluten and any dryish outer surface throughout the dough.

Roll, fold, roll again, fold, etc., until you get a satiny smooth

laminated dough. It may take a while to get the hang of it. Only then do

you begin to worry about rolling it thinly.

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 08:36:27 -0500

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryDat Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - Seeking wheat illumination -  OOP

 

Semolina is the coarse residue from boulting.  The name derives from the

Latin, semola, meaning bran.  The primary usage is in making pasta.

 

Adamantius' advice for working with semolina is on target.

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 11:15:47 -0500

From: david friedman <ddfrat best.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Anthro and cooking

 

At 9:55 PM -0400 8/29/99, Philip & Susan Troy wrote:

>IIRC, the earliest known Chinese pasta references I've seen are from

>roughly the 9th century C.E., albeit from secondary sources because I'm

>illiterate. I'm pretty sure there are recipes for various boiled dough

>sheet dishes (tracta) in Cato's De Re Agricultura. Possibly a bit coarse

>and heavy by today's standards, but then most of the medieval Italian

>pasta was too, and no one disqualifies that as pasta.

 

I believe Charles Perry had an old PPC article in which he concluded that

the evidence for pasta in classical antiquity was ambiguous. On the other

hand, there are lots of Islamic pasta recipes that predate Marco Polo, so

it seems hard to believe that, if the Europeans wanted to borrow pasta from

somewhere, they would have had to go all the way to China to find it.

 

David/Cariadoc

http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

 

 

Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 07:04:47 -0400

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troyat asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Italian Cuisine

 

Mordonna22at aol.com wrote:

> So, if there is a Roman recipe for pasta, how could there be Italian recipes

> pre-dating Pasta??

 

Well, technically, there could have been pasta before Rome, and probably

was, but I get your drift.

 

I believe Cato's De Re Agricultura contains recipes for stacked

structures along the lines of lasagna under the basic heading of tracta

(or some similar term; it's too early in the morning: actually a great

gig, I don't have to be responsible for anything I say before I'm

awake). I remember there being an article on this in one of the fairly

recent Petits Propos Culinaires.

 

One reason, perhaps, for the confusion on Roman and medieval pasta is

that modern milling techniques aren't that old, perhaps 18th century,

and the kind of fine pasta now made industrially from hard wheats (not

to mention extruded spaghetti) wouldn't have been possible in period.

Whether that means the Italian pasta of earlier ages was coarse and

granular, and somewhat gnocchi-like, or whether it was similar to the

kind of noodles we can easily make at home with AP flour (plain flour to

British-speakers) is uncertain. My suspicion is the former, because some

medieval recipes tend to talk about boiling pasta in good broth for an

hour (eeeeeee-ewwwww!) which would create a sort of brothy, soplike

pudding-ey mass.

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 03:25:56 EDT

From: Mordonna22at aol.com

Subject: SC - Check out The History of Pasta in Rome

 

<A HREF="http://www.cucina.italynet.com/news/2.htm";>Click here: News</A>

 

The author gives a compelling argument that lasagne type noodles were peasant

fare from early Roman days.

 

Mordonna

 

 

Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 01:16:20 +0100

From: Thomas Gloning <Thomas.Gloningat germanistik.uni-giessen.de>

Subject: SC - ancient pasta

 

Thanks, Hauviette, for pointing to the paper of Stefano Milioni.

 

<< is the author of a paper on Pasta in existence in ancient

Rome. Visit the link available through this Roman food page at:

http://www.ancientsites.com/~Caius_Livius/ >>

 

I read the text with great interest. On the other hand I found several

claims poorly documented or even doubtful. Let me mention two.

 

E.g., he quotes the Marco Polo-text: "(he saw and tested) lasagne

similar to those that we prepare with wheat flour", indicating that

lasagne were already in use in Italy when he saw them in China. Now, if

I am not mistaken, the original text of Marco Polo's travelogue is

written in French, and I would like to know the word translated here as

"lasagne".

 

Then: one of his main claims, that ancient "lagana" are the same as

later italian "lasagne", seems to be doubtful. According to the Latin

dictionary of Georges, "laganum" has two uses: 1) 'dünner Ölkuchen,

Ölplatz, in Öl gebackene Plinse, als leichte Speise für Kranke (Celsus);

als Speise für Ärmere (Horaz). 2) 'das Blatt, die Lage eines aus

mehreren Schichten (Lagen) bestehenden Kuchens (Apicius). (roughly:

'thin cake, baked in oil' (Celsus, Horaz), 'sheet of dough' (Apicius)).

André, in his edition of Apicius, says _laganum_ 'feuille de pâte'

('sheet of dough'). The etymological dictionary of Italian of

Cortelazzo/ Zolli does not mention a connection between lat. _laganum_

and it. _lasagne_.

 

Then, there is the use of pictorial representations: he says that the

tools necessary to prepare pasta are to be seen in some 4th-century-B.C.

tomb; after the experience with the "Spaetzle-tool" in a medieval

"Sachsenspiegel", I think one has to be very careful to draw inferences

from what one sees to the function of tools. After all, the tomb is a

RICH man's tomb, and pasta are said to be food of the poor.

 

Now, I am not saying that there were not ancient pasta. I just don't

know about that. Did anybody look at André, L´alimentation et la cuisine

à Rome yet?

 

All I am saying is that the points made in the paper of Stefano Milioni

paper ('The history of pasta in Italy') deserve caution and further

checking.

 

Thomas

 

 

Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 08:58:51 -0400

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troyat asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - ancient pasta

 

Mordonna22at aol.com wrote:

> Thomas.Gloningat germanistik.uni-giessen.de writes:

<snip>

> (roughly:

> 'thin cake, baked in oil' (Celsus, Horaz), 'sheet of dough' (Apicius)).

> André, in his edition of Apicius, says _laganum_ 'feuille de pâte'

> ('sheet of dough'). The etymological dictionary of Italian of

> Cortelazzo/ Zolli does not mention a connection between lat. _laganum_

> and it. _lasagne_.  >>

> Hmmm, of course, my homemade lasagne noodles are made from a "sheet of

> dough"...........but of course, that means nothing.........I'm sure your

> source is impeccably accurate........can't really tell, must depend on your

> translation..............

> Mordonna

 

Approaching this from another angle, if not any more impeccable, I refer

you to the English recipes for loseyns, which appear as though they

might be named for the pasta cut into a certain size and shape. The

modern term would be lozenges, which has both culinary and heraldic

connotations in period, with a mostly medicinal definition today, still

based on shape. This is a sort of common-sense guess, and I don't have

supporting info from a dictionary or anything.

 

Similiarly, though, pappardelle (a wide-noodle pasta similar to lasagne,

although not generally served in layers today) appear as though they

might be named for their shape ("pieces of paper", or something close to

that) and exist in period English recipes which suggest they're

culinarily interchangable with loseyns.

 

Possibly an Italian heraldry book might tell us if lozenge-shaped fields

for ladies' devices were used in period, and if so, what they were called?

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 12:12:15 -0500

From: david friedman <ddfrat best.com>

Subject: Re: SC - ancient pasta

 

At 8:58 AM -0400 10/3/99, Philip & Susan Troy wrote:

>Approaching this from another angle, if not any more impeccable, I refer

>you to the English recipes for loseyns, which appear as though they

>might be named for the pasta cut into a certain size and shape.

 

I'm pretty sure I remember a PPC article, possibly by Charles Perry, that

was arguing that the causation ran the opposite direction. The recipe name

was supposed to be derived from the Arabic name of a similar Islamic

recipe, and the name of the shape from the recipe name.

 

David/Cariadoc

http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

 

 

Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 14:42:53 -0500 (EST)

From: Robin Carrollmann <harperat idt.net>

Subject: Re: SC - medieval graters?

 

On Wed, 8 Dec 1999, Jeff Gedney wrote:

> > I think at least some of them must have been.  The recipe from de Nola

> > that calls for a grater is for a kind of cheese dumpling.  The dough is to

> > be forced through the holes on the reverse side of grater, and allowed to

> > fall into boiling water.  You can't really do that with a box grater.

> Sort of like Spaetzle?

 

I am not that familiar with the composition of spaetzle, but yes, AFAIK

these dumplings are made in the same way.  I belive that there is also a

recipe or two in Granado that uses a grater in the same way.  One is for

fideos (noodles) which can be made in a spaetzle-like manner, or mixed to

a thicker consistency and rolled out and cut.  There's also -- I think

mortruelo (sp?), which is some kind of liver pate dumpling.  I'm posting

from work and don't have my sources at hand.

 

> brandu

 

Brighid

 

 

Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 23:10:42 EST

From: LrdRasat aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - cooking times

 

Bronwynmgnat aol.com writes:

<< And other than cooking time, is fresh pasta much different than dried

pasta (serious question; to my knowledge, I have never had fresh pasta)?

Brangwayna Morgan >>

 

Fresh pasta cooks very quickly, approximately 30 seconds to 2 minutes

depending on the thickness of the pasta.

 

Ras

 

 

Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 19:16:37 -0600

From: Magdalena <magdlenaat earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: SC - cooking times

 

Bronwynmgnat aol.com wrote:

> And other than cooking time, is fresh pasta much different than dried

> pasta (serious question; to my knowledge, I have never had fresh pasta)?

 

In a word, yes.  Oh yes.  Yes indeed.  Actually, it depends somewhat on what you

call fresh pasta.  Fresh pasta in the plastic seal box at the grocery store

tastes better than dried, and is softer.  Fresh "I made it at home pasta" is much tastier and much, much softer.  Almost 'melt in your mouth' softer.  (At least mine is.)  The taste and mouthfeel difference isn't high enough that I typically use fresh, but it is worth the time or money to occasionally indulge. Hmmm...  I feel an urge for spaghetti for dinner coming on.

 

- -Magdalena

 

 

Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 08:48:20 +0100 (MET)

From: Par Leijonhufvud <parleiat algonet.se>

Subject: Re: SC - cooking times

 

On Mon, 20 Mar 2000 Bronwynmgnat aol.com wrote:

> And other than cooking time, is fresh pasta much different than dried

> pasta (serious question; to my knowledge, I have never had fresh pasta)?

 

Fresh pasta has cooking times of 2-3 minutes vs. dried (real) pasta at

7-13 minutes.

 

/UlfR

 

 

Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 22:56:17 -0500

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troyat asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Macrows vs the computer

 

Seton1355at aol.com wrote:

> Oh and PPS:  Do you have a recipe for  _macrows_?  I'd love to have  a recipe

> for it.  :-)

 

Well, I can easily tell you how they tend to be made, although I'm a

little too fried for small-print recipe transcribing right now. All they

are is a noodle made of flour and water mixed to make a firm dough which

is kneaded until smooth and non-sticky, then rolled out thinly and cut

into strips. Some recipes call for them to be hung up and dried a bit,

some don't.

 

They get boiled in stock or water, drained, and served in a bowl with

butter and grated cheese "ruayne", a not-very-old, rich white cheese,

something like new brie without the rind, named, apparently, for the

town of Rouen in Normandy. Some versions of the basic recipe call for a

sprinkling of spice powder on top.

 

I've found lovely eggless noodles, both dry and fresh ones, in some of

the Asian markets in my area, that are a nice substitute for making your

own, both because they are eggless, and they tend to be made from a

relatively soft wheat. I don't think these are supposed to end up al dente.

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 06:27:55 -0700

From: Ronda Del Boccio <serianat uswest.net>

Subject: Re: SC - Macrows vs the computer

 

Stefan li Rous wrote:

> Newbie Cook question: I've seen this term before, "al dente" and it

> is probably in some of my modern cookbooks, but what does it mean?

>

> Was this the way pasta was cooked in period?

 

"al dente" means literally "to the teeth."  it describes

pasta cooked so that it slightly resistant to the bite

without being hard or crunchy.  (In other words, not mushy,

not crunchy)  Having a fairly long history of family lore

passed down to me, I can say it's been a practice for

awhile, but I don't know just how long.

 

Serian

 

 

Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 07:53:32 -0600

From: "RANDALL DIAMOND" <ringofkingsat mindspring.com>

Subject: SC - Re: SC- Macrows vs the computer

 

My earliest recipe for macrows is one in in

Elisabeth Aryton's ENGLISH PROVENTIAL

COOKING which she states is from a feast

of Richard II in 1390.  I don't see eating it

with the fingers though as it had cheese too.  

MACARONI CHEESE! Jesse!

 

"Macrows. Take and make a thin foil of dough, and carve

it into pieces, and cast them on boiling water, and seeth

it well.  Take cheese and grate it and butter cast beneath

and above.... and serve it forth."

 

She references C. Anne Wilson on the pasta, but is not

clear whether or not the recipe on preparation is also from

Wilson's references.  She mentions two more instances

of "maccharoni" in English cooking prior to the eighteenth

century. Does anyone have any idea where she pulled the

above recipe from?  Also, grating infers a rather hard cheese.

What kind of cheese would likely have been used?  Cheddar

is definitely not right as cheddaring is not period.

 

Akim Yaroslavich

 

 

Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 10:49:47 -0800

From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcmat efn.org>

Subject: Re: SC - Re: SC- Macrows vs the computer

 

This looks alot lot the version in _Curye on Inglysche_ which would

certainly be the right time. I've used Jack and Parmesan (fresh grated,

not the stuff in the can) and they both worked fine. Don't use

mozzarella- it just maes a mess.

 

'Lainie

 

RANDALL DIAMOND wrote:

> My earliest recipe for macrows is one in in

> Elisabeth Aryton's ENGLISH PROVENTIAL

> COOKING which she states is from a feast

> of Richard II in 1390.  I don't see eating it

> with the fingers though as it had cheese too.

> MACARONI CHEESE! Jesse!

>

> "Macrows.  Take and make a thin foil of dough, and carve

> it into pieces, and cast them on boiling water, and seeth

> it well.  Take cheese and grate it and butter cast beneath

> and above.... and serve it forth."

 

> Akim Yaroslavich

 

 

Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 00:40:12 EDT

From: CBlackwillat aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - Dumplings

 

LrdRasat aol.com writes:

> Could you share the original recipe (preferably also the English translation)

> for those on the list who may not have access to this important recourse?  

> I have it but many do not.

>

> Ras

 

Sure. Here it is, as it appears in the Redon text "The Medieval Kitchen":

 

WHITE RAVIOLI

 

Take some good provatura and pound it well, then, while continuing to pound,

add a little butter, some ginger, and some cinnamon.  For one provatura add

three well-beaten egg whites and an appropriate amount of sugar.  Mix all

these things together.  Then make ravioli the length and thickness of a

finger. Then roll them in good flour.  Note that these ravioli should be

made without a dough.  Boil them gently so that they do not break.  Remove

them when they have boiled, and place them in a bowl with sugar and cinnamon.

You can color them with saffron.

 

Redon's Redaction (ingredients only, since the procedure is fairly well

explained above)

 

1 1/4 # soft white cheese

1 1/2 Tblspoons butter, at room temperature

2 egg whites, lightly beaten (I beat them rather firm, personally, as it

forms a better dumpling)

4 Tblspns sugar

Flour for dredging

1/2 tsp ground ginger

1 tsp ground cinnamon

salt

a few threads saffron, crumbled (optional)

 

I have found that if you substitute the sweet spices for dill and parsley or

tarragon, and increase the salt a little, these make great savory dumplings.

 

Balthazar of Blackmoor

 

 

Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 13:36:11 -0500

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryDat Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: SC - Beginners Redaction Challenge - Lasagne

 

I'm in the mood to play and while I will probably take up Phlip's challenge,

I noticed that the herb pie might be a little scary for a real novice, so I

thought I would toss out a very simple, inexpensive recipe to play with, but

with a lot of room for creativity.

 

Here is a recipe for lasagne from Liber de coquina.  A transcript of the

original recipe follows the English translation.

 

Bear

 

*****************************************************

Of lasagne

 

To make lasagne take fermented dough and make into as thin a shape as

possible. Then divide it into squares of three fingerbreadths per side.

Then take salted boiling water and cook those lasagne in it.  And when they

are fully cooked, add grated cheese.

 

And if you like, you can also add good powdered spices and powder them on

them, when they are on the trencher.  Then put a layer of lasagne and powder

{spices} again; and on top another layer and powder, and continue until the

trencher or bowl is full.  Then eat them by taking them up with a pointed

wooden stick.

*****************************************************

 

De Lasanis

 

Ad lasanas, accipe pastam fermentatam et fac tortellum ita tenuem sicut

poteris. Deinde, divide eum per partes quadratas ad quantitatem trium

digitorum. Postea, habeas aquam bullietem salsatam, et pone ibi ad

coquendum predictas lasanas.  Et quando erunt fortiter decocte, accipe

caseum grattatum.

 

Et si volueris, potes simil ponere bonas species pulverizatas, et pulveriza

cum istis super cissorium.  Postea, fac desuper unum lectum de lasanis et

iterum pulveriza; et desuper, alium lectum, et pulveriza:  et sic fac usque

cissorium uel scutella sit plena.  Postea, comede cum uno punctorio ligneo

accipiendo.

 

 

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 01:15:41 EDT

From: CBlackwillat aol.com

Subject: SC - Lasagne Challenge

 

Allright. Game On!!  Here is Balthazar's First On-Line Redaction:

Please bear in mind that I still have a little trouble preparing food for

small amounts of people, so my redaction may be quite large.  Also, any

comments from "those in the know" would be greatly appreciated.

 

The Original:

"To make lasagne take fermented dough and make into as thin a shape as

possible. Then divide it into squares of three fingerbreadths per side.

Then take salted boiling water and cook those lasagne in it.  And when they

are fully cooked, add grated cheese.

 

And if you like, you can also add good powdered spices and powder them on

them, when they are on the trencher.  Then put a layer of lasagne and powder

{spices} again; and on top another layer and powder, and continue until the

trencher or bowl is full.  Then eat them by taking them up with a pointed

wooden stick."

 

Balthazar's Version

 

3 lbs Semolina Flour

2 lbs AP Flour

6 cups warm water (110 deg F)

3 oz compressed yeast

1 oz salt

1 lb parmesan cheese, grated

3 Tb caraway seed, ground

1 Tbsp Ginger, ground

2 Tb anise, ground

3 Tb mace, ground

 

Method:

1) Place water and yeast in mixer bowl and sprinkle in 1/2 the AP flour and

the salt.  Let sit until bubbly (about 15 minutes at warm room temp).

2) Add remaining flours and mix with dough hook at low speed for 10 minutes,

or until dough is smooth and elastic.  Remove from mixer and knead an

additional 10 minutes by hand.  Form into a smooth ball, wrap in a damp cloth

and place in a warm spot until doubled in bulk.

3) Meanwhile, combine spices and set aside.  Bring 3 gallons water to a boil

and add a little salt.

4) When dough is ready, punch it down and divide the dough in half.  Work one

half of the dough at a time, keeping the other covered until ready to use.  

Roll out each half of dough using a rolling pin or broom handle to 1/16 of an

inch, or as thin as possible (you may have to further divide the dough to get

it as thin as necessary).  Using a sharp knife or pastry wheel, cut the dough

into 2x2 inch squares, wrap in film or waxed paper, and refrigerate (or

freeze) until ready to cook.  Repeat with second half of dough.

5) When ready to prepare the dish, drop the dough by small batches into the

boiling water and cook briefly, or until the dough rises to the surface.  

Remove and keep warm until all dough has been cooked.

6) Butter or oil a serving dish, and place a layer of cooked dough on the

bottom. Sprinkle with grated cheese, and then with a little of the spice

mix. You may wish omit mixing the spices in the initial recipe, and instead

sprinkle each layer with a seperate spice.  Continue the layering until the

dough is used up (this may have to be done in seperate serving dishes).  

Sprinkle the top layer with a mixture of the cheese and spices, and serve hot.

 

Note: As an alternative (though not documented) you may wish to include the

spices in the actual dough.  This dish would probably be very good for

serving at a feast where advanced preparation is required, as the dough could

be cooked ahead of time, frozen in a single layer, and then simply reheated

in boiling water at service time.

 

Again, please do not be hesitant to comment on this redaction.  For instance,

suggestions for another Italian period cheese would be appreciated.

 

Balthazar of Blackmoor

(who, by the way, considers a modern fork to be nothing more than a good,

pointed stick)

 

 

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 00:30:23 -0400

From: "Bethany Public Library" <betpulibat ptdprolog.net>

Subject: SC - Lasagne Challenge

 

Bal wrote:

<<< The Original:

"To make lasagne take fermented dough and make into as thin a shape as

possible. Then divide it into squares of three fingerbreadths per side.

Then take salted boiling water and cook those lasagne in it.  And when they

are fully cooked, add grated cheese.

 

And if you like, you can also add good powdered spices and powder them on

them, when they are on the trencher.  Then put a layer of lasagne and powder

{spices} again; and on top another layer and powder, and continue until the

trencher or bowl is full.  Then eat them by taking them up with a pointed

wooden stick.">>>

<<Bal's version snipped for brevity>>

 

Having made this recipe en masse, we once chose to interpret it as not

layered, but "stacked". We made our noodles in the shape of diapers (that's

diamonds or kites to you). Presentation: arrange 8 diapers in a star pattern

with one point facing inwards. Strew with the cheese and spices. Re-layer

exactly on the top of the former diapers. Stacked in this fashion they hold

their shape fairly well. We froze them like this for the event, and then

simply re-heated and served.

 

What you get is a thick moravian star shape dusted with the spices on top.

It's also easier to get to it with the skewers or pointed sticks.

 

Aoife

 

 

Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 07:30:26 -0400

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troyat asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Lasagne Challenge

 

CBlackwillat aol.com wrote:

> stefanat texas.net writes:

> >  Balthazar, where is this original recipe from?

>

> Stefan, I am not certain, but I think it may be from Kiber de coquina, or

> Martino's Libro de arte coquinaria.  It was posted as a redaction challenge,

> and so I gave it a shot.  I can't remember who the original poster was (I

> think it may have been Bear or Suleyman), or the subject line of the original

> post.

 

IIRC, Bear posted it. It's from the Morgan Library's MS Buhler 19,

recently published in an edition by Scully entitled "The Neapolitan

Recipe Collection"

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 09:05:26 -0500

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryDat Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - Lasagne Challenge

 

the lasagne recipe is from Liber de coquina.

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 13:34:03 EDT

From: "Catherine Hartley" <caitlin_ennisat hotmail.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Lasagne Challenge

 

You can find it (the original, a translation, plus a redaction) in "The

Medieval Kitchen: Recipes from France and Itlay" By Odile Redon, et al.

 

Caitlin of Enniskillen

 

 

Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:26:43 -0400

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troyat asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Re: Kuskenole, a question

 

RuddRat aol.com wrote:

> What is the cressee recipe?  What medieval recipe collection is it in?   Is

> there really an illustration that goes with it?  Where can I find this

> source?  I'd be interested in seeing this material.

 

Constance Hieatt and Robin Jones, "Two Anglo-Norman Culinary Collections

Edited from British Library Manuscripts Additional 32085 and Royal

12.C.xii", Speculum v. 61, October 1986, pp 859-882.

 

The original recipes are in 13th-century French, with an English

translation by Hieatt and Jones. Here's what it sez for cressee,

translated from Add. 32085 :

 

"5. Cressee [crisscross of noodles]. Here is another dish, which is

called cresee.Take best white flour and eggs, and make pasta dough, and

in the pasta dough put fine, choice ginger and sugar. Take half of the

pastry, (which is or should be) colored with saffron, and half (which is

or should be) white, and roll it out on a table to the thickness of your

finger; then cut it into strips, then cut it into strips the size of a

piece of lath; stretch it out on a table as illustrated [see diagram,

one color is presumably to be crossed over the other]; then boil in

water; then take a slotted spoon and remove the cressees from the water;

then arrange them on, and cover them with, grated cheese, add butter or

oil, and serve."

 

The diagram is a rectangular grid 4 squares high by eight wide.  

 

> Rudd Rayfield

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 23:39:45 -0500

From: david friedman <ddfrat best.com>

Subject: SC - Cressee webbed

 

We had a small cooking workshop today, and one of the things I did

was cressee--the other Anglo-Norman recipe with a picture. I thought

it was interesting, so took some pictures with my new digital camera.

You can find the result at

 

http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/cressee/cressee_recipe.htm

 

My thanks to Adamantius for pointing out cressee and its picture in a

recent post.

 

The instructions say to roll out the pasta dough to the thickness of

a finger, which I take to be about 3/8".  I'm not assuming that this

is the same "finger" unit as in the Cuskynoles, which would be

somewhat more. But even at 3/8, it is pretty thick. It works

reasonably well that way, but it occurred to me that one interesting

variant to try would be to roll the whole thing thin after it was

assembled but before it was boiled.

 

One problem with the recipe is getting enough contrast in color

between the plain and the yellow strips. One way is by using a lot of

saffron--but the result looks better than it tastes, unless you

really like saffron. Another possibility that Elizabeth suggested but

that I have not yet tried is to use the egg yolks in what will be the

yellow dough and the whites in what will be the plain dough.

 

David/Cariadoc

http://www.daviddfriedman.com/

 

 

Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 13:13:39 -0400

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troyat asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Cressee webbed

 

david friedman wrote:

> The instructions say to roll out the pasta dough to the thickness of

> a finger, which I take to be about 3/8".  I'm not assuming that this

> is the same "finger" unit as in the Cuskynoles, which would be

> somewhat more. But even at 3/8, it is pretty thick. It works

> reasonably well that way, but it occurred to me that one interesting

> variant to try would be to roll the whole thing thin after it was

> assembled but before it was boiled.

 

This was the point of my question regarding the workability of the

recipe. 3/8" seems rather thick, but we don't know for sure how tough or

glutenous this dough is, since that would depend largely on the flour

used and how long it's kneaded. Also, if it _is_ that thick, can it be

compensated for by a longer boiling? It occurs to me that thicker pastas

seem to tend to be dropped into boiling water, and then simmered, rather

than cooked at a full rolling boil, for a longer time. This also adds a

bit of credibility to the 17th century English vermicelli recipes that

speak of boiling them for an hour.

 

An added issue is the question of whether a good amount of sugar has any

significant effect on the texture: it is considered by bakers to be a

dough tenderizer.

 

Regarding your variant, in which you roll the woven strips again, did

you roll them to finger thickness after weaving, or thinner? Oh, I've

just gone back and reread. Sorry. Now, another possibility, which the

recipe itself seems to suggest, is that the woven structure is grasped

by the ends (which would also help pinch the ends together) and

stretched to some unspecified additional length, which would also tend

to put some strengthening tension (I think) on the entire thing, while

thining it at the same time.

 

> One problem with the recipe is getting enough contrast in color

> between the plain and the yellow strips. One way is by using a lot of

> saffron--but the result looks better than it tastes, unless you

> really like saffron. Another possibility that Elizabeth suggested but

> that I have not yet tried is to use the egg yolks in what will be the

> yellow dough and the whites in what will be the plain dough.

 

Maybe. I had gotten the impression, from sources like Scully, that a

number of recipes calling for eggs may be calling for the yolks only, in

any case. On the other hand, a lot of pasta is made from a relatively

yellowish durum flour in any case, sometimes artificially colored. On

occasions when I've made pasta with AP or "plain" flour, it often seems

to cook to a fairly pale color, and if I add saffron to the dough,

especially if in the form of whole threads, I'd think the change in

appearance would be reasonably noticable. I wonder if it's possible that

the flavor of saffron that is less than fresh is lost before its

capabilities as a colorant. Or maybe these people just like it.

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 00:02:34 -0400

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troyat asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Double cream

 

Sue Clemenger wrote:

> Don't know why it wouldn't work, although you might want to experiment

> first.  The recipe sounds very similar to some Alfredo sauces I've seen

> recipes for.

> --Maire

>

> deborah minyard wrote:

> > Now that I'm more informed (Thanks to all), here'es my quandary

> > I've found double cream 5.95 for 6 oz.

> > The recipe is a pasta with a sauce of double cream, parmesan cheese,and

> > nutmeg.  Would it work just as well with reduced whipping cream or added

> > butter?  The fease it for about 80-90 people.

 

It ought to work if you time it right. You could probably do this with

about two gallons of heavy cream, a pound or so of unsalted butter,

maybe 8-10 pounds of dry pasta, or about 12 pounds fresh pasta.

Basically what you do is heat about 3/4 of the cream in a wide,

heavy-bottomed pan like a brazier, until it begins to reduce and

thicken. Stir frequently to avoid burning, and watch for any tendency to

boil over. Keep the butter cold, and cut it into small pieces, maybe 1/2

Tbs. chunks or smaller. When the cream has thickened enough to coat the

back of your spoon, remove from the heat and start adding the butter a

few pieces at a time, stirring constantly until the butter is fully

melted and incorporated into the cream before adding the next batch,

another few pieces. As you progress you can add more butter at each

interval. When your butter is all whipped into the sauce, you can add

your hot boiled noodles and toss in 2-3 pounds of grated Parmaggiano.

Toss until the cheese is incorporated (you can figure out your own

nutmeg input, I don't do that newfangled stuff), and adjust the

moistness with the remaining cream. Consider adding some salt to taste,

but _after_ the cheese is included.

 

Yes, this does resemble some Fettucine Alfredo recipes, although the

cream is not in the original from Alfredo's Restaurant in Rome. It uses

only a particularly white local butter similar to that French stuff from

the Loire Valley that is used to make real beurre blanc, Parmaggiano, a

bit of the water from boiling tha pasta, salt and pepper.

 

Does this come from a period source?  

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 12:37:18 -0600

From: "Robbin Long" <rlongat srrc.ars.usda.gov>

Subject: Re: SC - Homemade period noodles/pasta

 

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcmann4at earthlink.net>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 

I'm playing around with a Lenten recipe from Granado: noodles

(made from flour, bread crumbs, oil, water, and saffron), and served

with a garlic-walnut sauce.  (Yes, I will post the recipe when I have

translated and redacted it.)

 

I've never made pasta before, nor cooked with fresh pasta.

 

I've rolled out some of the dough (to about 1/16", which is as thin

as I can get it with a rolling pin).  I cut it into thin strips, and have

them set aside and drying.  The rest of the dough is in the fridge,

awaiting its turn.  The recipe says to cut it into squares, or as

desired, so I figure I'll do a couple of small batches in different

sizes/shapes.

 

I know that fresh pasta requires less cooking time.  How else does

it differ from the dried boxed stuff?  How long can I store it, and in

what way?  (Keep in mind this recipe has no eggs.)  And what are

the other questions I should be asking, if I knew enough to ask

them?

 

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain

Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)

<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 

 

I have been lurking for a bit, but I think I can help with this.  I haven't tried my hand with period recipes, yet, but I make my own pasta for mundane cooking.

 

If you are cooking pasta right after making it, allow only a 30 sec to 2 min cook time, depending, of course on the thickness and shape of the noodle. Experiment a little with this until you find a time that gives a good consistency. Try to stick with durum or semolina flour in your noodles (the two terms are not necessarily interchangeable, but both will work), as it gives a noodle that will stand up to the boil without falling apart.  Be absolutely sure to get the liquid to boiling before adding the noodles and monitor them closely.

 

As for storage - in the short term, they keep very well fresh in the fridge for up to a week, but longer than that and they get mushy and may mold.  Use a tupperware container that allows a little air space, rather than a plastic bag. For slightly longer term, dry the noodles in a dry place - those in humid climes may wish to do this in a very low oven - for one to two hours (dry and somewhat stiff, but still pliable), then bag them and freeze them.  They will keep up to two months.  You can also completely dry the pasta (at 24 hours) and store it in a sealed brown paper bag in the pantry for several weeks, but I notice a big drop in taste by this method.  If the pasta is dried thoroughly, even egg-based mixtures can be stored this way.

 

If you want to be period, then I would continue to roll and cut the pasta as you are doing.  Alternatively, if you can find it, there is a ridged board that is used to cut Japanese soba and udon noodles in a traditional style that dates back into our period.  However, if you want to abandon technique for ease, I really think there is absolutely no substitute for a Mercato Atlas 150 hand-crank pasta machine.  Extruded noodles are simply not the same as the rolled and cut.  The texture becomes firmer and more substantial from the rolling process.  Expect to pay anywhere from $29-$65 depending where you shop.

 

How are they different - taste mainly.  There really is no comparison.  I especially prefer them in baked pasta dishes, as it is not necessary to pre-boil them, and they absorb flavor more readily.

 

Broinnfhionn

 

 

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 10:03:34 -0800

From: Susan Fox-Davis <seleneat earthlink.net>

Subject: SC - Macaroni and Cheese NOT OT NOR OOP!

 

OK, I don't use the sweets in it.  But how is this NOT macaroni and cheese?

Another translation I've seen has the cook poke a hole in the paste 'fillet'

which makes a long, holed noodle, very like the classic Blue Box.

 

" Roman Noodles. Blend meal which has been separated from chaff with water in

the best way. When it has been blended, spread it out on a board and roll it with a rounded and oblong piece of wood such as bakers are accustomed to use in such a trade. Then when it has been drawn out to the width of a finger, cut it. It is so long you would call it a fillet. It ought to be cooked in rich and continually boiling broth, but if, at the time, it must be cooked in water, put in butter and salt. When it is cooked, it ought to be put in a pan with

cheese, butter, sugar, and sweet spices."

 

- Platina's De honesta voluptate (On Right Pleasure), the M. E. Milham 1998

translation, p. 329

 

Selene

 

 

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 18:20:36 -0600

From: "RANDALL DIAMOND" <ringofkingsat mindspring.com>

Subject: SC - Macaroni and Cheese NOT OT NOR OOP!

 

Susan Fox-Davis <seleneat earthlink.net> wrote:

>>>>OK, I don't use the sweets in it.  But how is this

NOT macaroni and cheese? Another translation I've

seen has the cook poke a hole in the paste 'fillet'

which makes a long, holed noodle, very like the

classic Blue Box.<<<<

 

This one can't be anything else:  

"Macrows. Take and make a thin foil of dough, and

carve it in pieces, and cast them on boiling water, and

seeth it well.  Take cheese and grate it and butter cast

beneath and above..... and serve forth."  c. 1390 at

a feast for Richard II.   This is listed in Platina I think.

Recipe from Provencial English Cooking by Elisabeth

Ayrton, Harper & Row 1980.

 

Akim Yaroslavich

 

 

Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 01:19:44 +0100

From: tglat mailer.uni-marburg.de

Subject: SC - Pasta

 

<< Any more I can make? >>

 

Strangolapreti? (Manoscritto Lucano #53, ca. 1524)

 

Th.

 

 

Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 22:14:00 -0800

From: david friedman <ddfrat best.com>

Subject: Re: SC - In a pasta making mood

 

>How about period dishes? I'm thinking of homemade

>pasta for my "Grande Feast".

 

My favorite period pasta is rishta; you can find the recipe in the

_Miscellany_. I've never done it with a pasta machine, but I suppose

you could.

 

Does anyone know if extruded pasta is period? As best I recall, none

of the period descriptions I know imply that that is how it is being

made.

- --

David Friedman

ddfrat best.com

http://www.daviddfriedman.com/

 

 

Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:19:53 -0500

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troyat asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - In a pasta making mood

 

david friedman wrote:

> >How about period dishes? I'm thinking of homemade

> >pasta for my "Grande Feast".

>

> My favorite period pasta is rishta; you can find the recipe in the

> _Miscellany_. I've never done it with a pasta machine, but I suppose

> you could.

 

I assume you could. I prepared rishta in quantity for an event a while

back, using dried Chinese eggless noodles (the pasta in rishta is a

simple wheat-flour-and water dough, IIRC), and it was good, but I think

I'd prefer a somewhat more saucy dish; the final stages of cooking

involve letting the dish rest over low heat for an hour or so. I get the

impression that in that hour, the eggless noodles will absorb almost all

liquid in the dish, almost without the actual liquid quantity mattering.

You get a sort of moist kugel, unless you keep the pasta quantities controlled.

 

For that matter, does rishta, which has so many other ingredients,

really count as a pasta dish?

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 11:02:56 -0400

From: "Philip W. Troy & Susan Troy" <troyat asan.com>

To: sca-cooksat ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Noodles/Pasta

 

Gwynydd Of Culloden wrote:

> I was having a discussion with a friend and he happened to mention that

> "Marco Polo brought noodles back from China".  I told him that I really

> didn't think it was true but, when he asked, I couldn't tell him what the

> earliest known European recipe for pasta was.  Can anyone help here?

 

Well, unless there are sources I'm not aware of (well obviously there

are, but you know what I mean), it's actually an interesting question. I

don't recall seeing any pasta recipes in the various Harpestraeng ms

variants, and they appear to date from somewhere around 1250 C.E. They

seem to represent a cuisine from a part of the world that has easy

access to hard wheats.

 

On the other hand, BL ms. Add. 32085, an English ms. written in French,

dates from very shortly thereafter, maybe 1275 C.E. It has three obvious

pasta recipes (a ravioli, a woven particolored mat of noodles called

cressee, and -- ta da -- kuskynole, a fruit-filled pasta that gets

boiled and then grilled). This suggests that pasta was known in

_England_, as well as, possibly, in French court cookery, right around

the time Marco was leaving for the Far East. Assuming, rightly or

wrongly, that Marco "brought back" the idea of pasta to Italy upon his

return in 1295, we're talking about a negative number of years for the

idea to be established in England. That's quick.

 

More likely, the English pasta recipes are either simply descended from

foods known from the Roman Empire in Europe (for example, the tractae

Cato describes), or perhaps either "brought back" by early Crusaders or

carried across Europe from al-Andalus, where Islamic pasta dishes were

presumably well known.

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 18:43:30 +0200

From: Volker Bach <bachvat paganet.de>

To: sca-cooksat ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Noodles/Pasta

 

Gwynydd Of Culloden schrieb:

> I was having a discussion with a friend and he happened to mention that

> "Marco Polo brought noodles back from China".  I told him that I really

> didn't think it was true but, when he asked, I couldn't tell him what the

> earliest known European recipe for pasta was.  Can anyone help here?

 

The poor man gets blamed for everything, doesn't

he...

 

Apparently the idea of boiling dough is hardly

uncommon. Laurioux traces the etymological origin

of lasagna to 'laganum', a Roman dish that, in

Roman times, was probably baked rather than boiled

(but then again, so's lasagna). He also traces

'tria' (a medieval Neapolitan expression for what

he thinks are vermicelli) to the Muslim 'ittriya'

(no reference for this). Does anyone know of a

Middle Eastern source for pasta-like recipes? 13th

century texts (he refers to an article "Pates" by

himself in Medievales 17 (1989) for details on

this, which I don't have handy) are the first to

mention the words, and by the 14th century we have

recipes and treatments in books on dietetics (a

contemporary edition of the Tacuinum Sanitatis is

mentioned, unfortiubately without identifying the

edition). None of these sources to my knowledge

makes any reference to China or Messer Millione.

 

Got my reference: 12th century geographer Abu

Abd'Allah Idsrisi (sp?) mentions the large-scale

production of dried noodles (ittriya) in Trabia in

(then still heavily Muslim-dominated) south Italy.

Goodbye to that theory.

 

Giano

 

 

Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 14:21:06 -0400

From: johnna holloway <johnnaat sitka.engin.umich.edu>

To: sca-cooksat ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Noodles/Pasta

 

Gwynydd Of Culloden wrote:

> I was having a discussion with a friend and he happened to mention that

> "Marco Polo brought noodles back from China".  I told him that I really

> didn't think it was true but, when he asked, I couldn't tell him what the

> earliest known European recipe for pasta was.  Can anyone help here?

> Gwynydd

 

Johnnae llyn Lewis sends greetings.

 

Suggest to your friend that he needs to read the two articles

by Charles Perry in PPC #9 entitled "The Oldest Mediterranean

Noodle: A Cautionary Tale." pp.42-45. 1981. and

"Notes on Persian Pasta" PPC #10; pp. 48-49. 1982.

 

Or since that is a bit of a bother take a look at

http://www.mrsleeperspasta.com/pasta_101.html for an article

 

entitled PASTA 101 which seems to reproduce an article entitled

 

PASTA: Where It Came From and How It Got Here

by Corby Kummer

from "The Atlantic Monthly," July, 1986.

 

That should explain the pasta problem.

 

Johnna Holloway

 

 

Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 11:27:04 -0700

To: sca-cooksat ansteorra.org

From: david friedman <ddfrat best.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Noodles/Pasta

 

>Gwynydd Of Culloden schrieb:

>> I was having a discussion with a friend and he happened to mention that

>> "Marco Polo brought noodles back from China".  I told him that I really

>> didn't think it was true but, when he asked, I couldn't tell him what the

>> earliest known European recipe for pasta was.  Can anyone help here?

>The poor man gets blamed for everything, doesn't

>he...

>Apparently the idea of boiling dough is hardly

>uncommon. Laurioux traces the etymological origin

>of lasagna to 'laganum', a Roman dish that, in

>Roman times, was probably baked rather than boiled

>(but then again, so's lasagna).

 

Does he discuss the alternative that it derives from "losinge" via

"Loseyns," which is a 14th c. English (I think) pasta recipe. I'm

pretty sure that Charles Perry has a discussion somewhere, probably

PPC, that links "losinge" "lasagne," and something Arabic. And I

think he has an article arguing that there is no clear evidence of

pasta in classical antiquity.

 

>He also traces

>'tria' (a medieval Neapolitan expression for what

>he thinks are vermicelli) to the Muslim 'ittriya'

>(no reference for this). Does anyone know of a

>Middle Eastern source for pasta-like recipes?

 

Al- Baghdadi and Ibn al-Mubarrad both have pasta recipes; the former

predates Marco Polo by fifty years or so.  I believe pasta recipes

show up in the earliest post-Roman European cookbooks, which are

roughly contemporary with Marco Polo.

--

David Friedman

ddfrat best.com

http://www.daviddfriedman.com/

 

 

From: Sandragoodat aol.com

Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 17:03:15 EDT

To: sca-cooksat ansteorra.org

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Noodles/Pasta - LONG (Charles Perry)

 

For those who may not have access to the articles mentioned by Charles Perry,

his notes on Persian Pasta were reprinted in the Medieval Arab Cookery book

that was printed this year.  It has most if not all the articles published in

the Islamic Culture newsletter/magazine which is what PPC printed.

 

For those that are unable to obtain either, I have included some excerpts

from them.  I appologize for the length but I know first hand how frustrating

it can be not to have access to or funds to acquire needed refrences.  Being

new to the list I hope I have not overstepped.

 

Please note that I am unable to include the various alphabet pronunciation

marks (I cannot think of the correct terms for the dots, dashes, etc. that

show up in other languages) and only give the spellings.

 

These have been taken from the newly published Medieval Arab Cookery by

Maxime Rodinson, A. J. Arberry & Charles Perry, Prospect Books, 2001.

 

"The first recorded Iranian noodle dish is lakhsha.  There are scattered

references to it in Persian literature, but in the absence of medieval

Persian cookery books we must go to the tenth-century Arabic compilation

Kitab al-Tabikh for a recipe.  The instructions call for a stiff dough of

flour and water, 'rolled out thin with a rolling pin and cut with a knife

into strips.'"

 

" A noodle of some description was being made in the Greek-speaking world by

the year 500 under the name itria, and one wonders whether there is a

connection between it and lakhsha."

 

" In Islamic times, at least, itriya referred to a small soup noodle which

could be made by twisting bits of kneaded dough into shape, rather than

rolling and cutting, so the Greek pasta may have been a different sort of

noodle from the start."

 

"As of the thirteenth century, however, lakhsha had disappeared from Arabic

cookbooks and there was a new word for noodle, rishta, which is still common

in Iran, the Arab world and Turkey.  Rishta is the only word for noodle in

the several thirteenth century Arabic cookbooks and in the poems of the

fourteenth-century Persian rhymester Bushaq (Abu Eshaq-e Hallaj of Shiraz)."

 

Hope this wets your whistle enough.  I also hope it helps.

 

THL Elizabeth Donnan

(in the middle of her next A&S research project which this happens to be a

part)

 

 

Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 18:28:52 -0400

From: "Philip W. Troy & Susan Troy" <troyat asan.com>

To: sca-cooksat ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Noodles/Pasta - LONG (Charles Perry)

 

Sandragoodat aol.com wrote:

> "The first recorded Iranian noodle dish is lakhsha.  There are scattered

> references to it in Persian literature, but in the absence of medieval

> Persian cookery books we must go to the tenth-century Arabic compilation

> Kitab al-Tabikh for a recipe.  The instructions call for a stiff dough of

> flour and water, 'rolled out thin with a rolling pin and cut with a knife

> into strips.'"

> " A noodle of some description was being made in the Greek-speaking world by

> the year 500 under the name itria, and one wonders whether there is a

> connection between it and lakhsha."

> " In Islamic times, at least, itriya referred to a small soup noodle which

> could be made by twisting bits of kneaded dough into shape, rather than

> rolling and cutting, so the Greek pasta may have been a different sort of

> noodle from the start."

> "As of the thirteenth century, however, lakhsha had disappeared from Arabic

> cookbooks and there was a new word for noodle, rishta, which is still common

> in Iran, the Arab world and Turkey.  Rishta is the only word for noodle in

> the several thirteenth century Arabic cookbooks and in the poems of the

> fourteenth-century Persian rhymester Bushaq (Abu Eshaq-e Hallaj of Shiraz)."

 

It's probably worth noting that while rishta may be the only word for

noodle in the 13th-century Arabic sources, it is not the only pasta. Off

the top of my head, I can recall shushbarrak, which is a meat-filled

pasta dish, and then there's another whose name I forget (tutmaj?) which

calls for slices to be cut off a roll of dough, and then struck like a

coin with the thumb. These last seem to be sauced with yogurt and mint,

IIRC, and the shushbarrak are alive and well, and virtually unchanged,

in modern-day North Africa.

 

Adamantius

 

 

From: Sandragoodat aol.com

Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 20:22:22 EDT

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Noodles/Pasta - LONG (Charles Perry)

To: sca-cooksat ansteorra.org

 

Adamantius writes:

> I can recall shushbarrak, which is a meat-filled

> pasta dish, and then there's another whose name I forget (tutmaj?) which

> calls for slices to be cut off a roll of dough, and then struck like a

> coin with the thumb. These last seem to be sauced with yogurt and mint,

> IIRC, and the shushbarrak are alive and well, and virtually unchanged,

> in modern-day North Africa.

 

Thank you for adding about the ravioli style pasta.  I left it out because I

was so long winded in my previous post.  I admire those of you that can spout

information from the top of your head.  I have only just begun my research so

have not yet memorized the names and pages of these dishes.  Many of my

friends that have a copy of the book can do just that.  I have to refer to

the actual book.  :-)

 

For clarification though, salma is the noodle that is struck like a coin.

Tutmaj is a noodle that is rolled out and cut.  They are both served with a

yogurt, mint and garlic sauce and are both served with fried meats.  The only

other difference in the two is salma mentions onions also.

 

Shushbarak is a tutmaj dough stuffed with meat and served in a yogurt sauce.

 

Rishta is more like a beef soup with noodles.

 

It is important to note also that rishta is a dried noodle whereas salma and

tutmaj are both a fresh noodle.

 

Elizabeth Donnan

 

 

From: "E. Rain" <ragheadat liripipe.com>

To: <sca-cooksat ansteorra.org>

Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 09:41:19 -0700

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Timbale  was: Disturbing item from the CIA

 

good morning from Eden, who needs an excuse to stop translating for a

while...

 

Gunthar wrote re the CIA comment that Timbales have been around for a

millennium:

 

> Very pretty and tasty looking. But once the

> chef had presented the dish he made the statement

> "A dish exactly like was served over 1000 years

> ago." Um....excuse me? Not only was the tomato

> sauce a major giveaway but I haven't seen anything

> like a timbale in any corpus. And how old is ziti?

 

Well the word "exactly" was certainly out of line, and the time frame was

stretched past the data I have available, but timbale like dishes do appear

in the medieval Italian corpus:

 

Torta de Lasagne, from the 14th c. Neapolitan "Liber De Coquina"  is a dish

lined with lasagne then filled with raviolis, eggs, cheese etc in layers.

It's then decorated with a dough sculpture, but the basic dish is there.

 

The Torta Parmesana present in at least 3 different 14th c. Italian texts

lines a pot with "paste" and then fills it with layers of pastas, meat, eggs

etc. See PPCs 59 & 61 for a discussion of this dish and it's development

into modern timbales  (though I don't care for the article's claim that the

dish goes back to Babylonian times)

 

I'm told timbales are heavily present in Scappi, but I haven't worked with

it much yet to confirm this myself. (so many books so little time!)

 

As for Ziti, if you look at the Martino corpus (Italian 15th c.) you find

"To make a devised meat after the Romane manner." which is pasta which you

form by wrapping it around a stick to make hollow straws i.e. ziti or penne.

 

Eden - Italian girl

 

 

Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 13:04:06 -0400

From: "Philip W. Troy & Susan Troy" <troyat asan.com>

To: sca-cooksat ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Timbale

 

Michael Gunter wrote:

>> but timbale like dishes do appear in the medieval Italian corpus:

> Great information! Thanks! I need to play with

> these recipes sometime. I'd love to do them.

 

 

I can't and won't say they don't, but it should be noted that at least modern timbale are more or less the containers they're cooked in, with a huge variety of ingredients and varying cooking methods. Some have a lining pastry, many don't, some are essentially schtuff mixed with custard and baked in a bain-marie. and most of them are fairly small, along the lines of a double shot glass. Which is not to say they could not share a common ancestry with Italian torta of various types, but then a lot of Italian tortas from period have survived, in largely unchanged form, to the present day.

 

Adamantius

 

 

From: "E. Rain" <ragheadat liripipe.com>

To: <sca-cooksat ansteorra.org>

Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 13:15:41 -0700

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Timbales/Tortas

 

Adamantius wrote:

> >> but timbale like dishes do appear in the medieval Italian corpus:

>

> I can't and won't say they don't, but it should be noted that

> at least modern timbale are more or less the containers they're cooked in,

> with a huge variety of ingredients and varying cooking methods. Some have

> a lining pastry, many don't, some are essentially schtuff mixed with

> custard and baked in a bain-marie. and most of them are fairly small,

along the

> lines of a double shot glass. Which is not to say they could not share a

> common ancestry with Italian torta of various types, but then a lot of

Italian

> tortas from period have survived, in largely unchanged form, to the

present day.

 

Hmm, sounds like you're mostly seeing Timballini (single serving timbale) I

usually think of timbale on the grand scale myself.

 

Here's the modern definition from Fant & Isaac's Dictionary of Italian

Cuisine:

"Timballo - Timbale; traditionally, a pie or varied ingredients molded and

baked; sometimes, =Bomba; sometimes a filled pastry.  Today, even lasagna is

sometimes classed as a kind of timballo. A timballetto or timballino is an

individual, unmolded serving."

 

Very open to interpretation :->

 

FYI the term comes from Timpano, an Italian word for drum, and does not seem

to have been used in a culinary context pre 1600 (Florio doesn't include it

& I haven't come across it looking at various earlier cookbooks) the first

definite citation I can find right now is 1778, per the PPC 61 article, If

anyone has the full text of scappi & wants to skim for timbale I'd love to

have that link confirmed, it's not among the excepts included in Faccioli.

14th & 15th c recipes seem to use only variants of the word torta...

 

Vincente asked:

> Eden, do you have the texts/translations?  These sound

> absolutely fantastic.

 

I've only done a partial redaction so far, but yeah, it's shaping up pretty

amazingly.

 

PPC 59 has the 14th c. Neapolitan text for Torta Parmesana I think

translated into English.

If you can read 14th c. Venetian ;-> it's also on Thomas' website:

http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~gloning/frati.htm recipe#112  more Italian

versions can be found in Faccioli's "L'arte della cucina in Italia"

Failing that, the proceedings of this years Oxford Symposium on Food &

Cookery should include my translation of the 14th c. Tuscan version :->

 

Eden

 

 

From: "E. Rain" <ragheadat liripipe.com>

To: <sca-cooksat ansteorra.org>

Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 13:21:17 -0700

Subject: [Sca-cooks] still on Timbales

 

Mercedes wrote:

> Mario Batali made somthing similar on his show - he called it

> a pastitsio I believe

 

That would be a variant of the Venetian name for the dish: pastisso/pastizzo

 

Eden

 

 

Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 06:25:22 -0500

To: sca-cooksat ansteorra.org

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troyat asan.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] again from Purgatory

 

Also sprach 'Lainie:

>And as regards teh Blue and Yellow box, he sez:

>>  I've yet to see any documentation that _macaroni_ in it's modern shape

>>  is historic. Pasta and cheese, yes, I've seen enough of that, mostly a

>>  flat, wide noodle like modern lasagne. ANd not covered in processed

>>  cheddar, American, or Velveta.

>Cartwheels? Dinosaurs? Spaceships? Footballs? I have a vague memory of

>Wookie-shaped pasta, but perhaps I'm lucky and just hallucinating

>that...

>Pasta is pretty easy to make flat. How far back do pasta extruders and

>such go? Master A? Phlip? Y'all know about that sort of thing? What

>about manicotti? Ziti? And long skinny spaghetti?

 

Platina mentions tubular pasta, rolled by hand and then pierced with

an iron rod, a skewer or something like that. IIRC. He's probably not

the first.

 

Adamantius

 

 

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.deckerat worldnet.att.net>

To: <sca-cooksat ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] again from Purgatory

Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 07:26:00 -0600

 

IIRC, the first mention of gnocci is late 13th Century and extruded pasta

appears in the 14th.  I also seem to remember something about tubular pasta

and Platina (15th Century), but my copy is not at hand.

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 00:24:06 -0400

From: Angie Malone <alm4at cornell.edu>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Medieval English lasagne?

To: <sca-cooksat ansteorra.org>

 

On Tuesday, July 15, 2003, at 09:32 PM, Phil Troy/ G. Tacitus Adamantius

wrote:

>>> 

And what is lasagne (to most of the modern world this means lasagne

bolognese or some close variant thereof) made of? I mean, apart from the

tomato ragout? Largely flat pasta and cheese, no? Rather like the almost

identical 14th-century Italian version published in the 19th century in

the Libro di Coquino? I think there's also a recipe for it in the

Neapolitan collection recently edited/published by Scully.

<<< 

 

Just checked - no close matches in the Neapolitan Recipe Collection.

Some references to lasagne, but no layered dishes of noodle and cheese.

 

How does the one from Libro di Coquino read?

 

- Doc

----------------------------

There's a a recipe in the medieval kitchen(Redon, Sabban and Serventi) for

lasagne. However it is 'fermented dough' with the cheese and spices.  I

just made it for our last event in June and it came out pretty

good. Although we did have some trouble cooking it which the chemistry

experts think had to do with letting it rise too long.  Mostly because the stove we were using was older than sin and water took forever to boil.

 

It says in the book "Other Italian books contain recipes for lasagne made

of flour and water and boiled in meat broth on meat days and almond milk

for days of abstinence.  Another element that made us choose this version

in the Liber de Coquina is that it is the only one to explain clearly how

lasagne are made-by rolling out the dough and cutting it into squares three

finger-breadths a side--and how they are eaten; with a little pointed

wooden stick.

 

        Angeline

 

 

Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 00:32:43 -0400

From: "Phil Troy/ G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantiusat verizon.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Medieval English lasagne?

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooksat ansteorra.org>

 

Also sprach Daniel Myers:

>>> 

Just checked - no close matches in the Neapolitan Recipe Collection.

Some references to lasagne, but no layered dishes of noodle and

cheese.

<<< 

 

Close match to what, and why the fixation on layers? It should be

noted that even now, not all lasagne dishes are layered. Some still

just toss the ingredients and let gravity do the layering.

 

Looking back on the English Hares in Papdele recipe, which has

Italian near-equivalents, it is not really clear that the dish is

intended to be layered, although loseyns are mentioned as one option

for the starchy substrate. Wafers are another; interesting that no

option like pappardele ["pieces of paper'] is mentioned, unless

that's covered by loseyns and by the dish name itself.

 

> How does the one from Libro di Coquino read?

 

It's translated in "The Medieval Kitchen" as follows:

 

"Of lasagne. To make lasagne take fermented dough and make it into

as thin a shape as possible. Then divide it into squares of three

fingerbreadths per side. Then take salted boiling water and cook

those lasagne in it. And when they are fully cooked, add grated

cheese.

        And, if you like, you can also add good powdered spices and

powder them on them, when they are on the trencher. Then put a layer

of lasagne and powder [spices] again; and on top another layer and

powder, and continue until the trencher or bowl is full. Then eat

them by taking them up with a pointed wooden stick." [LC 412]

 

The mention of cutting the dough into squares three fingers wide,

roughly 2 - 2 1/2 inches, perhaps, suggests to me that losenges

(either the heraldic shape or maybe just a reference to

cross-hatching) are indicated by the name, and it is layered, just

not with ricotta, mozzarella, and meat ragu (nor with ragu bolognese

and vegetables balsamello). I guess what qualifies as lasagne depends

a great deal on people's preconceived notions.

 

So, I don't have the Neapolitan Recipe Collection here in front of me

(although it probably is within three feet of me; I just can't find

it). I'm pretty sure it has pasta recipes. What does it tell us about

lasagne?

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 05:53:53 -0700 (PDT)

From: Louise Smithson <helewyseat yahoo.com>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Medieval Italian recipes for Lasagna was Re:

        Medieval      English Lasagna

To: sca-cooksat ansteorra.org

 

And what is lasagne (to most of the modern world this

means lasagne bolognese or some close variant thereof)

made of? I mean, apart from the tomato ragout? Largely

flat pasta and cheese, no?

 

OK had to weigh in on this one.  The earliest Italian

MS on cooking seem to come from the 14th/15th century

with very little accurate dating other than that.

Here are the earliest examples I could find in my

collections (newly expanded by some ILL).

 

De le lasagne

Togli farina bona, bianca; distempera con acqua

tepida, e fa che sia spessa: poi la stendi

sottilmente, e lassa sciugare: debbiansi cocere nel

brodo del cappone, o d'altra carne grassa: poi metti

nel piattello col cascio grasso grattato, a suolo a

suolo, come ti piace.

 

Of the lasagna

Take good white flour, temper with tepid water and

make it that it is dense/thich: then stretch it thin,

and let it dry: one has to cook it in capon broth or

other fat meat broth: then put it in the plate with

grated cheese, layer on layer, as you please.

 

Il Libro della cucina, del sec XIV, Bologna  Presso

Gaetano Romagnoli 1863.  From MS  N 143 University of

Bologna.

 

Chi vole fare alesagne, tolla bona farina bianca et

falla bollire in brodo de capuni.  Se non fosse tanta,

mictice de altra acqua, et mectace del sale a bollire

con essa, et tragala in uno catino, et mectano del

cascio assay, et burla sopra il tagliaturi del grasso

del capone.

 

If you want to make lasagna, take good white flour and

let them boil in capon broth.  If perhaps you don't

have enough add more water and add salt to boil with

these, and take out and put in a bowl/dish, and add

enough cheese and butter above and chopped capon fat.

 

Anchi se possono fare lesagne in pavese.  Tolale  et

facale cocere che non sciano troppo cocte, et tragale

del vaso, et lavale ad dui acque frede, ad cio ch'el

siano desillo metereace spetie et caffarano, et poy se

volionu frigere.

 

Also one can make lasagna of Pavia. Take them and put

them to cook so that they are not too much cooked, and

pull from the pan, and wash twice in cold water and so

that they are (of yellow ?? dubious trans) add spices

and saffron, and then you want to fry them.

 

Bostrom Ingemar, ed. Anonimo Meridionale, Due Libri di

Cucina. Acta Universitatis, Romanica Stockholmiensia,

11. Stoclholm.  Almqvist & Wiksell 1985.  Libro B

dated to the first half of the 15th Century.

 

Couldn't find any lasagna made from pasta in the

Maestro Martino collection.  Claudio Benporat.  Cucina

Italiana del Quattrocento.  Biblioteca dell Archivum

romanicum Seri I.  Storie Letterature, Paleografia 272

(this is 14th Century

Per fare lasagne di pelle di capone

Togli la pelle del cappone cotto e tagliala inpezuoli

e ponila in brodo di capone grasso e fallo bollire per

ispatio di meza hora con uno pocho di zaffarano dipoi

fa le minestre con un pocho di caso di sopra e con

spetie.

 

To make lasagne of capon skin.

Take the skin of cooked capons and cut into pieces and

put in fat capon broth and let it boil for the space

of half an hour with a little bit of saffron then make

the dish with a little bit of cheese above and with

spices.

 

Last one, something with nuts not cheese.

 

XXXVIII. Lasagne.

Se tu voy fare lansagne de quaressima, toy le lasagne

e mitile a coxere, e toli noxe monde e ben pesta e

maxenate, e miti entro le lasagne, e guardale dal

fumo; e quando vano a tavola, menestra e polverizage

de le specie, del zucharo.

 

XXXVIII. Lasagne.

If you want to make lasagne in lent, take the lasagne

and put it to cook, and take walnuts peeled and well

beaten and ground, and put into the lasagne, and guard

from smoke, and when it goes to the table, serve and

powder with the spices and sugar.

 

Translation of Libro di cucina/ Libro per cuoco

(14th/15th c.)  (Anonimo Veneziano)

 

In conclusion, yup the italians had lasagna.  Lots of

variants too.

 

Helewyse de Birkestad.

 

 

Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 09:36:49 -0400

From: "Phil Troy/ G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantiusat verizon.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Medieval Italian recipes for Lasagna was Re:

        Medieval      English Lasagna

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooksat ansteorra.org>

 

Also sprach <jenneat fiedlerfamily.net>:

Hmmm... so we don't have any dating of lasagna in an italian manuscript before 1390? Or do we?

 

It's a little unclear, but we do have a claim that Italian recipes go

back at least to the 14th century, of which most is before 1390. It

seems more likely, statistically, that if there's a 14th-century

recipe, it's from before 1390, rather than in the ensuing eleven

years.

 

Of course, that's not intended as anything but speculation.

 

Regardless, it would seem to refute both English claims of having

developed lasagne significantly before the Italians, and Italian

claims that what the English developed (or acquired) was not actually

lasagne. Whatever it was or was not, it appears to be nearly

identical to what the Italians were making at the same time and

calling lasagne.

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:20:43 -0400

From: Daniel Myers <docat medievalcookery.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Medieval English lasagne?

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooksat ansteorra.org>

 

On Wednesday, July 16, 2003, at 12:32 AM, Phil Troy/ G. Tacitus

Adamantius wrote:

Also sprach Daniel Myers:

Just checked - no close matches in the Neapolitan Recipe Collection.

Some references to lasagne, but no layered dishes of noodle and

cheese.

 

Close match to what, and why the fixation on layers? It should be

noted that even now, not all lasagne dishes are layered. Some still

just toss the ingredients and let gravity do the layering.

 

Most people in the US (and in the UK?) expect "Lasagne" to be a layered

dish. I was looking for something that was similar to the layered

noodle and cheese dish described in the article (which referred to FoC).

 

[...]

 

So, I don't have the Neapolitan Recipe Collection here in front of me

(although it probably is within three feet of me; I just can't find

it). I'm pretty sure it has pasta recipes. What does it tell us about

lasagne?

 

Let's see...

 

Using Scully's translations:

 

16. Roman Macaroni.  Finger-width noodles, boiled in broth, served with

butter. Makes reference to lasagne - "Out of fine flour make a dough

that is a little larger than for lasagne...."

 

17. Vermicelli.  The expected type of noodles colored with saffron and

garnished with Parmesan cheese.

 

128. Squash Torte.  Sounds like a squash & cheese dessert pie, near

the end of the recipe says to "put small lasagne on top" part way

through baking.

 

130. Spelte Torte.  Similar recipe to #128 above, with spelte instead

of squash.

 

132. A Sienese-style Tartara.  Sort of a custard with ground almonds

and cheese.  Suggests that you can add "a ladleful of lasagne cooked in

good broth".

 

158. Eggs in the Shape of Ravioli.  Ravioli with eggs as a filling.  

The recipe starts, "Make a dough as for lasagne..."

 

159. Offelle.  A sort of raisin-cheese ravioli.  Calls for "a thin

pastry dough as for lasagne".

 

181. Rice Torte.  A rice and almond dish.  Says to make "a lower and

an upper crust for it with broad, thin lasagne."

 

 

So what it really comes down to is how you define the word.  If one is

using the term "lasagne" to indicate the shape of the noodle, then yes

any and all of the above recipes would be a match, but if "lasagne" is

understood (as most Americans would) as a sort of casserole with layers

of wide flat noodles and other fillings (usually including cheese) then

none of these are a very good match.

 

- Doc

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Edouard Halidai  (Daniel Myers)

http://www.medievalcookery.com/

 

 

Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 05:35:41 -0700 (PDT)

From: Louise Smithson <helewyseat yahoo.com>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: ooking for a period cheese filled

        pasta/lassagna      dish served cold (long)

To: sca-cooksat ansteorra.org

Cc: Easter95at aol.com

 

I got this message yestrday and I know I've heard cheese filled pasta

dishes being discussed here previously, but I don't remember that any

of them were served cold.

 

   Stefan

> From: Easter95at aol.com

>I am looking for a recipe for a cold dessert lasagna that

> was served at an SCA feast I attended a number of years ago.  It was

> very simple, just sweet cheese filling and lasagna noodles.  Have you

> heard or seen a recipe for this kind of dessert?

> Any help would be greatly appreciated.

> Carolyn B.

 

This is a reuest for a dish I have seen no sign of in

any of my cookbooks (which I browse regularly).  I

have translated quite a few cheese + pasta recipes,

some ravioli, agnoloti and lasagna recipes.  Nearly

every single one ends with the instruction to "serve

hot" r "keep warm under a cover".  Of course it could

be someones interpretation of the way that the

rennaisance and earlier Italians made lasagna.  Cooked

pasta layered with cheese, sugar and cinnamon.  If you

use a light hand with the sugar and cinnamon

component, and use a salty cheese, such as parmesan,

you have a savory dish.  If you were to use a heavier

hand with the sugar and cinnamon and used a sweet

cheese, such as ricotta, you could end up with a sweet

dish. In the menus that I have translated from cappi

(16th Century source) there are references to

macaroni salad, but from my reading that is simply

macaroni cooked and tossed with olive oil, as I have

been unable to find actual recipes or references to

such. The Italians to this day tend to be very simple

with their salad dressings, which consist of olive oil

and vinegar.  So it may be that the dish in question

was just a sweet redaction of a savory dish, served

cold instead of hot.

I couldn't find a lasagna recipe in Scappi that would

work for ths dish but there is a maccaroni recipe

(essentially smaller flat noodle shapes) which because

of the addition of rosewater, cinnamon and sugar could

be interpreted as a sweet dish. This is from the

second book of Bartolomeo Scappi, Opera. Dell'arte del

Cuinare. (Venetia, 1570), libro II, pg 78, cap

CLXXIIII

 

Per far minestra di maccaroni alla Romanesca

 

Impastisi una libra di fior di farina con oncie

quattro di mollica di pane bianco, che sia stata in

molle in latte di capra tepido, & quattro rossi

d'uova due oncie di zuccaro passato per lo setaccio,

& impastata che sarà essa pasta in modo che non sia

troppo liquida, & mescolata che sarà per lo spatio di

mezo hora sopra una tavola facciasene sfoglio con il

bastone, lasciando asciugare esso sfoglio, con ilruzzolo di ferro o di legno, taglinosi I maccaroni, &

fatti che saranno, lascinosi asciugare, & volendoli

cuocere con acqua semplice, faccioanosi cuocere in un

vaso grande, ove sia acqua assai, & sale abastanza, &

quando l'acqua bollirà, ponganosi dentro  maccaroni,

percioche se si ponessero in acqua fredda andarebbeno

al fondo, & farebbeno una pasta, come fa ogni sorte di

pasta tirata, bolliti che saranno per meza hora,

facciasis il saggio se saranno teneri, & non essendo

lascinosi bollire fin' a tanto ce siano ben cotti, &

cotti che saranno habbiasi apparecchiato un piatto

grande d'argento, o di stagno, o di terra

spolverizzato grossamente di cascio grattato, zuccaro,

& cannella, & fette di provatura fresca, & pongasi una

parte d'essi maccaroni che sian bene scolati

dall'acqua, & sopra essi maccaroni spolverizzisi

cascio, zuccaro, & cannella, & fetter di provatura, &

bocconcini di butiro.  In questo modo se ne faranno

tre fuoli, & si sbrufferanno di acqua di rose, & si

copriranno con un'altro piatto, & i lascieranno stare

su le ceneri calde o in forno caldo temperatamente per

meza hora, & si serviranno caldi.

 

To make a dish of Roman macaroni

 

Mix together one pound of flour with four ounces of

crumb of white bread that has been soaked in warm

goats mil, and four egg yolks, two ounces of sieved

sugar. Blend this pasta together making sure that it

is not too wet, knead well for half an hour on a

table. Roll the dough into sheets with a rolling pin,

leave it thicker than the one (recipe) above.  Leave

tis sheet to dry, then with a disc cutter of iron or

of wood cut the macaroni, making them thus, let them

dry. You want to cook them in simple water, make them

cook in a large pan with plenty of water and enough

salt. When the water boils put in the macaoni,

because if you put them in cold water they will sink

to the bottom and become a single (lump) of pasta.  As

one makes every kind of thin pasta, boil them for half

an hour, making sure that they are tender, but do not

leave them to boil until they arewell cooked.  When

they are cooked have ready a large silver, iron or

ceramic plate that has been dusted heavily with grated

cheese, sugar and cinnamon, and slices of fresh

mozzarella. And put on some of these macaroni, that

have been well drained of watr.  Above these macaroni

sprinkle cheese, sugar and cinnamon, slices of

mozzarella and little pieces of butter.  In this way

one makes three layers, and then sprinkle with

rosewater and cover it with another plate, and leave

it in the hot cinders or in a edium hot oven for half

an hour and serve hot.

 

For more translations from Italian, including menus

and other cheese filled pasta recipes I would

recommend my web site

www.geocities.com/helewyse

 

Helewyse de Birkestad

 

 

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 00:03:46 -0700

From: david friedman <ddfrat daviddfriedman.com>

Subject: Re: Rishta- was Re: [Sca-cooks] pasta with meat

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooksat ansteorra.org>

 

Cariadoc mentioned rishta as a favorite pasta with meat and Phlip asked:

> What rishta are you referring to? A quick search on Google got me a bunch of

> Indian and Pakistani movie and music references, and one obviously modern

> revipe, containing pasta, but also bell peppers and no meat.

 

He means the one from Al-Bagdadi; here is the version we have in the

Miscellany:

 

Rishta

   al-Baghdadi p.45/7

 

Cut fat meat into middling pieces and put into the saucepan, with a

covering of water. Add cinnamon-bark, a little salt, a handful of

peeled chickpeas, and half a handful of lentils. Boil until cooked:

then add more water, and bring thoroughly to the boil. Now add

spaghetti (which is made by kneading flour and water well, then

rolling out fine and cutting into thin threads four fingers long).

Put over the fire and cook until set to a smooth consistency. When it

has settled over a gentle fire for an hour, remove.

 

1 lb lamb

1/2 stick cinnamon

1 t salt

6 T peeled chickpeas (canned will do)

3 T lentils

4 c water

2 c flour

3/8-1/2 c water

 

"Boil until cooked": about 1 hour. For noodles, mix flour with about

1/2 c cold water (just enough to make an unsticky dough). Knead

thoroughly, roll out, cut into thin strips. Add to pot, simmer 1/2

hour being careful not to let it stick to the bottom and scorch,

serve.

 

Elizabeth/Betty Cook

 

 

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 07:08:51 -0600

From: Sue Clemenger <mooncatat in-tch.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] pasta with meat

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooksat ansteorra.org>

 

ISTR several Islamic dishes that feature meat and pasta.  Think they're

in the _Miscellany_.  I've always wanted to try the one with lamb and

yogurt and onions.  Think the "noodle" in this case is little

coin-shaped things, but I could be misremembering....

--maire

 

"Harris Mark.S-rsve60" wrote:

> Margaret's comment:

> In that case, definitely make him a huge bowl of macrows, maybe with some

> chunked hot dogs thrown in. He'll be happy, it will be more-or-less

> period, and you don't have to worry about the kitchen staff snitching the

> Ho-hos.

> <<<<<

> had me wondering about whether period pasta dishes had meat mixed in

> with them.

 

 

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 10:15:02 -0700

From: david friedman <ddfrat daviddfriedman.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] pasta with meat

To: mooncatat in-tch.com, Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooksat ansteorra.org>

 

You are not misremembering:

 

Salma

Ibn al-Mabrad p. 20/D4

 

Dough is taken and twisted and cut in small pieces and struck like a

coin with a finger, and it is cooked in water until done. Then

yoghurt is put with it and meat is fried with onion for it and mint

and garlic are put with it.

 

> ISTR several Islamic dishes that feature meat and pasta.  Think they're

> in the _Miscellany_.  I've always wanted to try the one with lamb and

> yogurt and onions.  Think the "noodle" in this case is little

> coin-shaped things, but I could be misremembering....

> --maire

 

 

Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 13:56:12 +0800

From: drakeyat webone.com.au

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] handmade pasta

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooksat ansteorra.org>

 

> Making it by hand also sounds very long and labor intensive,

> so I don't know if I will ever try it but it would be

> interesting to know about.

 

I thought so to.  The I found a pasta maker in an italian deli (A$45)

and

have never looked back.  I make ravioli, tortellini, numberous types of

fettucini. It's a hell of a lot of fun and very easy to use.  You do

the

primary kneading and then you rolls and knead the past though the

machine

until you break the gluten, You narrow the rollers though easch

pass

(about 4-5) until you have thin enough pasta.

 

You can then get fancy (Flavoured pastas and the like). I've even done

Kiriel's chocolate pasta recipe...

 

> Wha are the taste/texture differences between fresh and dried pasta,

> either homemade or store-bought after both have been boiled?

 

It's smoother, silkier and cooks much quicker. Tastier too...

 

Drake

 

 

Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 21:22:27 -0400

From: johnna holloway <johnnaat sitka.engin.umich.edu>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Extruded pasta

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooksat ansteorra.org>

 

david friedman wrote:

> The rishta recipe (13th c. Islamic) specifies rolling out the pasta; as

> far as I can recall, none of the 13th or 15th c. Islamic recipes refer

> to extruding it. Modern pasta makers, on the other hand, extrude. Does

> anyone have evidence on when extrusion came in as a way of making

> pasta?

 

That new work Pasta by Serventi and Sabban goes into this. It seems to

be in the air, according to them in the 16th century when the "ingegno

per li maccheroni" was in use. This is literally they say, a macaroni

engine. They mention that the guild of vermicelli makers in Naples was

requiring an extrusion press by 1579 when it was incorporated into the

charter.

 

I gave the full details on the book in a post earlier this week.

 

Johnnae llyn Lewis

 

 

Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 12:49:13 -0700 (MST)

From: Linda Peterson <mirhaxaat morktorn.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Food in 1632? sorta OP/OT

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooksat ansteorra.org>

 

On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 jenneat fiedlerfamily.net wrote:

>> The pasta itself, while they would have had pastas, the modern

>> extruded "spaghetti" would have been unavailable.

> I suspect that there is a way to make spaghetti without modern machinery,

> probably by stretching out rolled dough-- like making milleflori beads.

 

I watched an Iron Chef make noodles by hand during the show once. Rolled

out a sheet of dough, loosely rolled it up like a scroll, sliced off the

noodles one at a time, high speed. Those puppies were square spaghetti,

about three thirtyseconds of an inch on each side, completely regular.

Amazing!

 

Mirhaxa

 

 

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 17:41:40 -0400

From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"

        <adamantius.magisterat verizon.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Macaroni

To: mirhaxaat morktorn.com, Cooks within the SCA

        <sca-cooksat ansteorra.org>

 

Also sprach Linda Peterson:

> I think she's asking about the shape. Were there any extruded pasta in

> period? My impression is they were all cut from flat sheets?

> Mirhaxa

 

I believe both Platina (and presumably Martino) as well as at least

one or two other Italian sources, such as that Neapolitan manuscript

Scully has an edition of, call for macaroni to be made by rolling the

dough into firm, pencil-thin cylinders, and then poking an iron

needle, like a knitting needle, into it along its length.

 

So while not extruded per se, something like perciatelli seems to be

the end result.

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 14:47:42 -0700

From: Susan Fox-Davis <seleneat earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Macaroni

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooksat ansteorra.org>

 

The mac'n'cheese in Platina has you roll the paste into fingers and poke

a skewer through them.  A bit like the fabled Kraft Dinner type Mac,

yes? Not necessarily elbow-shaped but one step closer anyway.

 

Blue Box Kid Selene C. <G>

 

 

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 11:28:36 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnaat sitka.engin.umich.edu>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Macaroni

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooksat ansteorra.org>

 

Martino explains it. Pasta is rolled out into tubes around a stiff

wire which is then withdrawn. The extrusion press came about

in the late 16th century according to Serventi & Sabban in their

book Pasta The Story of a Universal Food. US edition is by

Columbia University Press, 2002.

 

Johnnae

 

> The mac'n'cheese in Platina has you roll the paste into fingers and

> poke a skewer through them.  A bit like the fabled Kraft Dinner type

> Mac, yes?  Not necessarily elbow-shaped but one step closer anyway.

> Blue Box Kid Selene C. <G>

 

Rosalyn MacGregor wrote:

>Did the pasta noodles now know as macaroni have

>a different name in the SCA

 

 

Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:37:17 -0600

From: Christina L Biles <bilesclat okstate.edu>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: grain in milk dishes

To: sca-cooksat ansteorra.org

 

Jadwiga said:

>>> Ok, guys, how do you cook grain dishes in milk, as in the millet

>>> cooked in milk Platina suggests?

 

I don't know.  Every time I've tried to cook something milk, be it grains

or pears or whatever, the milk separated into curds & whey.  I have a

speculation that raw milk may react differently, but I don't have a source

for it.

 

>> I am more and more of the opinion that not cooking our grains in broth is

>> doing people a disservice in the feasthall.

 

It isn't just the grains.  Platina's noodles in broth recipe (Roman

Noodles) was just insanely popular at my last feast, and I used plain

dried noodles, not even hand made.  It was a cheap and easy filler dish (I

thought) to provide a bed for the meat skewers.  I expected most of it to

come back.  Instead, we had demands for more, more, more coming back to

the kitchen.

 

Now I cook noodles in broth as a side dish at home.  ;>

 

-Magdalena

 

Roman Noodles

Blend meal which has been separated from chaff with water in the best way.

When it has been blended, spread it out on a board and roll it with a

rounded and oblong piece of wood such as bakers are accustomed to use in

such a trade. Then when it has been drawn out to the width of a finger,

cut it. It is so long you would call it a fillet. It ought to be cooked in

rich and continually boiling broth, but if, at the same time, it must be

cooked in water, put in butter and salt. When it is cooked, it ought to be

put in a pan with cheese, butter, sugar, and sweet spices.

 

 

Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 20:51:03 -0500

From: Bill Fisher <liamfisherat gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: grain in milk dishes

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooksat ansteorra.org>

 

On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:37:17 -0600, Christina L Biles

<bilesclat okstate.edu> wrote:

> Now I cook noodles in broth as a side dish at home.  ;>

> -Magdalena

> Roman Noodles

> Blend meal which has been separated from chaff with water in the best way.

> When it has been blended, spread it out on a board and roll it with a

> rounded and oblong piece of wood such as bakers are accustomed to use in

> such a trade. Then when it has been drawn out to the width of a finger,

> cut it. It is so long you would call it a fillet. It ought to be cooked in

> rich and continually boiling broth, but if, at the same time, it must be

> cooked in water, put in butter and salt. When it is cooked, it ought to be

> put in a pan with cheese, butter, sugar, and sweet spices.

 

I did this for a feast and made them by hand for it.  It went over really well.

I omitted the sugar as the king had requested an "atkins" friendly feast.

I liked the dish better without the sugar, the sugar and the cheese contrasted

too much when I made it at home, unless you were using a loose curd

cheese or ricotta.  (was ricotta period? )  I used parmesan, basil and

tarragon, along with some butter I made at home.

 

Cadoc

 

 

Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:00:21 -0500

From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"

        <adamantius.magisterat verizon.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pasta Sheets

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooksat ansteorra.org>

 

Also sprach Lonnie D. Harvel:

> I keep hearing about pasta sheets. Cooking shows and books tell me

> to use them. But I have yet to see them available in any store I

> have been in, including the market stores and specialty stores. Does

> anyone know of an online source? (or for those in the Atlanta-ish

> area, do you know of a local source?)

 

You may find them in the refrigerated pasta section of large

supermarkets, or in some of the gourmet shops in your area. You may

need to ask for cannelloni sheets or fresh lasagne. Failing that, you

can try using egg roll wrappers, but those use a different flour and

are a little different in texture (not being durum wheat, as a rule).

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:03:47 -0600

From: "Michael Gunter" <countguntharat hotmail.com>

Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Pasta Sheets

To: sca-cooksat ansteorra.org

 

> We got these from a food supply company- Metro-Web, not Sysco. But I think

> others would have them also.. Gunthar? Any commentary appreciated, as I was

> only on the fringes of the kitchen.. Pyro

 

I was quite surprised at the quality of the pasta sheets we got. I rather half expected dried lasagne. These came frozen and separated by wax paper. And delivered by a bulk grocery supplier.

 

You will probably have to go to a higher end market to find fresh pasta sheets or even the frozen ones. My local Albertsons doesn't have them.

 

You can also make them in quantity pretty easily.

 

Gunthar

 

 

Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 19:03:21 -0400

From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1at comcast.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Martino Coro's pasta recipe?

To: Christiane <christianetrueat earthlink.net>,    Cooks within the SCA

        <sca-cooksat ansteorra.org>

 

Christiane wrote:

> Does anyone here now of a translation of Martino Corno's cookbook

> that contains a recipe titled "De arte Coquinaria per vermicelli e

> macaroni siciliani (The art of cooking Sicilian vermicelli and

> macaroni)"?

> I find many references to this recipe, circa 1000 AD., but not the

> recipe itself! Argh!

> Gianotta

 

I have a copy of the recently published version of Martino's book, De

arte coquinaria, translated by Jeremy Parzen as "The Art of Cooking, the

First Modern Cookery Book", and have looked in it for your recipe.

However, I did not find a recipe titled as you indicate.  There are two

recipes, one for Sicilian Macaronia, the second for Vermicelli:

 

Sicilian Macaroni:

Take some very white flour and make a dough using egg whites and rose

water, or common water.  If you wish to make two platters, do not add

more than one or two egg whites, and make sure that the pasta is very

firm; then shape it into long, thin sticks, the size of your palm and as

thin as hay.  Then take an iron rod as long as your palm or longer, and

as thin as string and place it on top of each stick, and then roll with

both hands over a table; then remove the iron rod and the macaroni will

be perforated in the middle.

 

These macaroni must be dried in the sun and they will last for two or

three years; they will last particularly well if you make them under an

August moon; cook them in water or meat broth; and place them on

platters with generous quantities with generous quantities of grated

cheese, fresh butter, and sweet spices.  This macaroni should be

simmered for two hours.

 

Vermicelli

Thin the pasta as above, cut into thin strings, and break into small

pieces with your fingers just like little worms; and set it to dry in

the sun, and it will keep for two or three years.  When you wish to cook

it, do so in meat broth or good fatty pullet broth, for one hour.  Then

serve in bowls, toped with grated cheese and spices.

 

In case it is not a meat day, cook it in almond milk with sugar or in

goat's milk.  But because achieve the sufficient boil required by

vermicelli, boil first in a little water, as is done for rice.  And the

sme holds fr lasagne and /triti/, also called /formentine/.  All of

these pasta dishes should be made yellow with saffron, except when they

are cooked in milk.

 

Hope this helps....

 

Kiri

 

 

Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 23:05:31 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnaat sitka.engin.umich.edu>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Martino Corno's pasta recipe?

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooksat ansteorra.org>

 

Christiane wrote:

> Does anyone here know of a translation of Martino Corno's cookbook

> that contains a recipe titled "De arte Coquinaria per vermicelli e

> macaroni siciliani (The art of cooking Sicilian vermicelli and

> macaroni)"?

> I find many references to ths recipe, circa 1000 A.D., but not the

> recipe itself! Argh!

> Gianotta

 

I suppose you mean such places as

http://www.mamatheresa.com/history-pasta.htm

 

where it mentions

Around the year 1000, we have the first documented recipe for pasta in

the book "De arte Coquinaria per vericelli e macaroni siciliani", (The

Art of Cooking Sicilian macaroni and Vermicelli) written by Martino

Corno, chef to the powerful Patriarch of Aquileia. Pasta was certainly

well known in Arab countries, where still today they speak of

"makkaroni". From these countries it spread to Greece and Sicily (then

an Arab colony). In fact, Palermo was the first historical capital of

pasta, because it is here that we have the first historical sources

referring to the production of dried pasta in what seems like a

small-scale industrial enterprise. In 1150, Arab geographer Al-Idrisi

reports that at Trabia, about 30 km. from Palermo, "they produce an

abundance of pasta in the shape of strings ("tria" in Arabic) which are

exported everywhere, in Calabria and in many Musim and Christian

countries, even by ship."

 

I don't know where they get the year 1000 dating for Martino, but you are

right in that it seems to have been published somewhere and numerous

sites have adopted it as the truth.

 

Anyway the recipes that Kiri provided seem to be the ones you want.

There's more on the topic of vermicelli in Pasta. The Story of a Universal Food

by Serventi and Sabban. See pages 233 to 235. That's a really good source

for pasta history.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Johnnae

 

 

Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 09:39:32 -0500 (GMT-05:00)

From: Christiane <christianetrueat earthlink.net>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Martino Corno's pasta recipe?

To: sca-cooksat ansteorra.org

 

Johnnae,

 

Thanks to you and Kiri for your help; what irks me about this is that  

even the Italian Websites say exactly the same thing.

 

As an aside, the reference to such pasta as "tria" is still a dialect  

word for pasta in Sicily and southern Italy today. According to Mary  

Taylor Simeti and other food writers, it comes from the Arabic itrjia  

(for string). And finding that out cleared up a mystery for me as to  

why my grandma occasionally referred to vermicelli or spaghetti as  

such.

 

The general fact that there seems to have been a 12th century pasta  

factory near Palermo seems to be undisputed. How the Arab-Sicilians  

cooked it and with what, I don't know, but I keep stumbling across a  

modern-day recipe for pasta with chickpeas "tria e ceci" most often  

attributed to Lecce. Guess where the Muslims who were pushed out of  

Sicily were resettled or fled to?

 

So I offer this modern-day recipe that has very deep roots:

 

300 grams of tria (typical pasta from Lecce, substitute fresh  

vermicelli or fresh ribbon pasta)

2 stalks of celery, chopped

1 white onion

3 cloves garlic (I added this in, the simple version I found doesn't  

call for it)

250 grams of dried chickpeas

salt

3 bay leaves

extra-virgin olive oil

 

Soak the chickpeas with a little baking soda overnight; rinse and  

drain. Simmer the chickpeas with the bay leaves, celery,  and a little  

salt until tender; keep adding water so there is an inch of water over  

the chickpeas at all times, you're going for soupy here. Boil the  

pasta; drain and set aside. In a large frying pan, fry the finely  

minced onion and one clove of garlic, crushed, in the olive oil until  

browned. Take the other two cloves, and brown them in another pan with  

some oil until browned, then remove. Fry half the pasta in the  

garlic-infused oil until crisp. Then add the drained boiled pasta to  

the chickpeas (do not drain the chickpeas), mix well, let sit for a few  

moments, and top with the fried pasta.

 

There are variations of this recipe adding crushed red pepper, tomato,  

rosemary, and anchovies. It must be made with fresh pasta, however,  

otherwise it's just pasta e ceci.

 

Is there a similar Arab dish? Now I am really curious

 

Gianotta

 

 

Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 11:52:01 -0400

From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"

        <adamantius.magisterat verizon.net>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Martino Corno's pasta recipe?

To: Christiane <christianetrueat earthlink.net>,    Cooks within the SCA

        <sca-cooksat ansteorra.org>

 

Also sprach Christiane:

> There are variations of this recipe adding crushed red pepper,

> tomato, rosemary, and anchovies. It must be made with fresh pasta,

> however, otherwise it's just pasta e ceci.

> Is there a similar Arab dish? Now I am really curious

 

First look at this:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~westher/recepten/RISHTA.htm

 

Then see this:

http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/cariadoc/islamic_wo_veggies.html#8

 

The second is a period Islamic recipe for rishta: it's a little

different, but there's a recognizable common subtext, I'd say.

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 11:47:28 -0500 (GMT-05:00)

From: Christiane <christianetrueat earthlink.net>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Essay on macaroni origins (Re: Martino Corno's

        pasta  recipe?)

To: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius.magisterat verizon.net>, Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooksat ansteorra.org>

 

Gotta love Clifford A. Wright.

 

http://www.cliffordawright.com/history/macaroni.html

 

In it, he cites the medieval Islamic rishta recipe cited in the

Miscellany. Lots of footnotes and historical references to pasta secca

(dried pasta) in medieval records, and references to when hard wheat

was developed and cultivated.

 

Gianotta

 

 

Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 10:49:37 -0700

From: lilinahat earthlink.net

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Rishta (was Re: Martino Corno's pasta

        recipe?)

To: sca-cooksat ansteorra.org

 

Christiane <christianetrueat earthlink.net>

> Thank you. Very interesting, I had wondered if there were Middle

> Eastern pasta dishes, and what the period ones were (I had read the

> Miscellany so briefly and so long ago that rishta didn't stick in my

> head).

 

The book, "Medieval Arab Cookery", published by Prospect Books in

2001, would be of great use to you.

 

First, there's a substantial essay on Middle Eastern pastas written

by Charles Perry.

 

Then, in his introduction to the Kitab al-Tibakha, a 15th cookbook

from Damascus that is clearly NOT for the wealthy, but the average

person, Perry notes the "surprising" prominence of pasta dishes.

 

And, of course, there are quite a number of recipes that include

noodles or pasta in the several cookbooks, translated and published

in their entirety, along with foot notes, in "Medieval Arab Cookery",

not just in the Kitab al-Tibakha. These include, but are not limited

to rishta, itriya, salma, tutmaj, and shushbarak (like ravioli or

capelletti).

 

I would think that "Medieval Arab Cookery" would be of use to you.

--

Urtatim, formerly Anahita

 

 

Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 13:29:20 +0000

From: nickiandmeat att.net

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Redaction done this weekend

To: CalontirCooksGuildat yahoogroups.com (Group-CCooks)

Cc: Group-SCACooks <sca-cooksat ansteorra.org>

 

Libro Novo (Banchetti) by Cristoforo Messisbugo from the 1557 edition  

of the Libro Novo printed in Venice as translate by Master Basilius  

Phocas (MKA Charles A. Potter)

 

The following recipe:

 

51 C     TO MAKE TEN PLATTERS OF OBLONG RAVOLI IN THE LOMBARDY STYLE,  

FOR A DAY OF MEAT AND FOR LENT

Take Swiss chard well washed, and mince, and you shall fry it in six  

ounces of fresh butter, note that it does not take the smoke.  And then  

when it shall be fried you shall leave it to cool a while, then you  

shall put it in a pot with two pounds of good hard cheese well grated,  

and four eggs, and four ounces of sugar, a uarter (ounce) of pepper,  

and a ounce of cinnamon, and you shall mix everything well together.

Then you shall make your pastry sheet with a small amount of butter and  

an egg, and then make your small ravioli long, which you shall cook in  

good broth or a day of meat and for a Lenten day in water with butter.  

And then when they shall be ready for the banquet, you shall put over  

them a pound of good grated cheese, and a quarter (ounce) of pepper,  

and three ounces of sugar, blend together everyting.

And then when they shall be ready to set for the banquet you shall  

cover them with other plates, and you shall put them over hot ashes, so  

that they would stay hot till it is enough that you shall want to send  

to table.  And note that such likesmall ravioli you with it can serve,  

and alone, and for covering capons, ducks, pigeons, and others you  

want.

 

I made two versions of ravoli dough.  One was unbleached flour - It  

worked fairly smooth, easy to handle, roll out, sealed extremely well.  

The other version I used semolina flour mixed with a bit of the  

unbleached flour (I ended up adding 2 tables of unbleached flour to the  

semolina flour).

 

The recipe I ended up with was 2 & 1/2 cups flour, 1 egg and 1 egg  

white. I cut in four tablespoons of butter and a 1/2 teaspoon of salt  

(next time I will increase the salt to the full teaspoon called for in  

the recipe.) I also added a tablespoon of water to the semolina batch,  

but only a half tablespoon to the unbleached batch.

 

The semolna batch - was much fussier to work with when trying to make  

the ravoli.  It tore easily, and just didn't want to seal tightly.

 

When cooked both batches pretty much looked alike. But the semolina  

batch was slightly toothier to eat.  I liked it better  I don't know  

if this because this is how I expect the ravoli noodle to taste or  

what. It wasn't chef-boy-r-dee tender.

 

The filling:

 

I stopped at a small cheese import store and got some aged provolone,  

parmesan, and pedano (a grating cheese).

 

I bought one bunch of red chard at the grocery store.  I chopped the  

leaves fine - expecting it to cook down more than it did. It didn't act  

like turnip/mustard/spinach greens at all. It held up surprisingly well  

during the stir fry/sautee in butter before mixing with the cheese  

mixture. I ended up with about 1 & 1/2 cups of the chard mixture.

I used approximately 1/3 cup grated of each cheese.  I added 2 eggs,  

and 1/2 teaspoon of grated pepper, and 1/2 teaspoon of cinnamon.  And  

two tablespoons of turbinado (raw) sugar.  Okay flavoring - nothing to  

make the taste buds jump.

 

I daubed the mixture in rounded teaspoons onto the bottom later of  

dough, marked between the mixtures with egg wash and laid the top  

noodle over it.  Then, I pressed between the lumps to help -bond- the  

layers of dough together, before I cut the noodles apart.

 

The ravioli was boiled in strained chicken stock.  I strained the  

noodles and moved them to serving bowls.

 

I sprinkled the mixture of cheese/sugar/cinnamon/pepper over the top.  

It melted onto the noodles in a pleasing pattern, aroma.

 

I like the cooked texture of the semolina noodle better.  I need to  

granulate the sugar finer next time before using it.  The flavor was  

good but not anything to write hoe about.

 

Next time I believe I would like to try pecorino romano, pedano, and  

some Gorgonzola.  I would like the flavor to -pop- a bit more.

 

I also want to try one of the puff pastries next.  Perhaps Thursday  

night...

 

Kateryn de Develyn

Barony of Ceur d'Ennui

Kingdom of Calontir

 

 

Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 12:49:57 -0500 (GMT-05:00)

From: Christiane <christianetrueat earthlink.net>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Redaction done this weekend

To: sca-cooksat ansteorra.org

 

Just to let you know, semolina dough needs a lot of working to become  

pliable, and as you know already it's tough stuff to knead. The book I  

am reading about Sicilian cooking says families who made huge amounts  

of pasta (some had businesses going) often worked the dough with their  

feet.

 

Gianotta

 

 

Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 10:21:58 -0400

From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"

        <adamantius.magisterat verizon.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Redaction done this weekend

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooksat ansteorra.org>

 

Also sprach nickiandmeat att.net:

> I made two versions of ravoli dough.  One was unbleached flour - It

> worked fairly smooth, easy to handle, roll out, sealed extremely

> well.  The other version I used semolina flour mixed with a bit of

> the unbleached flour (I ended up adding 2 tables of unbleached flour

> to the semolina flour).

> The recipe I ended up with was 2 & 1/2 cups flour, 1 egg and 1 egg

> white.  I cut in four tablespoons of butter and a 1/2 teaspoon of

> salt (next time I will increase the salt to the full teaspoon called

> for in the recipe.) I also added a tablespoon of water to the

> semolina batch, but only a half tablespoon to the unbleached batch.

> The semolina batch - was much fussier to work with when trying to

> make the ravoli.  It tore easily, and just didn't want to seal

> tightly.

> When cooked both batches pretty much looked alike. But the semolina

> batch was slightly toothier to eat.  I liked it better.  I don't

> know if this because this is how I expect the ravoli noodle to taste

> or what.  It wasn't chef-boy-r-dee tender.

 

My experience has been that semolina pasta doughs benefit from a rest

overnight in the fridge. It's as if you can make a dough and moisten

the granules of meal and get them to stick together in what feels

like a cohesive pasta dough, and sort of behaves like one, but isn't

quite one until the individual granules have time to soften in the

presence of liquid. When cooked, the un-"cured" dough seems to be

kind of coarse and soggy. I won't go any deeper into the science of

it right now; it's just been my observation.

 

If you knead the dough until it's as smooth and elastic as you can

get, then wrap it up and refrigerate it for a few hours or overnight,

then knead and roll it out again, it seems to behave more like what

we expect from a fine pasta dough.

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 10:19:06 -0400

From: "Mairi Ceilidh" <jjterlouwat earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Redaction done this weekend

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooksat ansteorra.org>

 

Bravo! I am SO glad to see someone else using Libro Novo.  Have you tried

Messisbugo's version of pasta?  It is made with bread crumbs in addition to

the normal pasta ingredients.  Good stuff, until you have to do it by hand

for a feast for 100.

 

My experience with semolina versus unbleached flour has been exactly the

opposite of yours.  I love semolina and the way it works.  Making pasta with

regular flour is a trial to my religion.  Of course, that could be affected

by the oppressive humidity we usually live with in North Trimaris.

 

Please keep us posted on other experiments with recipes from the Libro Novo.

There's a lot of great stuff in there.

 

Mairi Ceilidh

 

 

Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 20:06:31 +0000

From: nickiandmeat att.net

Subject: [Sca-cooks] (no subject)

To: sca-cooksat ansteorra.org

 

David Friedman wrote:

<<I don't see any salt in the recipe you quote above--do you have

another recipe with information on making pasta?

 

Also (Elizabeth's question) it's odd that the original has butter and

cheese and eggs, but then gives a Lenten alternative for cooking it.

Do we know if Lenten customs in Italy at the time permitted eggs and

dairy?

>> 

 

I added salt because all the modern recipes I referred to in my  

research added salt.  Not a good reason.  I will eliminate the salt  

when trying it with the pecorino cheese (which is extremely salty.)

 

The lenten version of the recipe also cooks the ravoli in water with  

butter added.  I know very little about the Italian lenten customs.  

The area these recipes are from are the northeastern part of Italy  

around Venice - almost into the Alps.  Perhaps they followed a more  

lenient form of fasting/lent?

 

There is another variation of the recipe given later in the book (given  

below). It also directs you to make the ravioli with cheese and eggs and  

to boil the ravoili (in lent) in water to which butter has been added.

 

Kateryn

 

57 D    TO MAKE RAVIOLI FOR A DAY OF MEAT OR LENT FOR TEN PLATTERS

Take silver beet (chard) well washed and cut, and put in a pot with six  

pounds of good grated cheese, and two pounds of fresh butter, and eggs  

numbering twenty, and a ounce of pepper, and a half-ounce of ginger,  

and a ounce of cinnamon, and two (loaves) of grated bread passed  

through the sieve, and a half-pound of raisins, and mix everything  

together.

And then get a half-pound of white flour spread over a table and with  

named mixture you shall make your ravioli, large or small according to  

what you shall want, and you shall put them to cook in water, and on a  

day of lent with butter and a small amount of saffron in named water,  

and you shall make them to cook slowly so that they do not burst.

Then you shall ready for the banquet with good cheese grated over them.  

And for a day of meat you shall want to make them cook in good broth  

with saffron and raisins in the mixture.  And when they are cooked you  

shall take cheese, sugar, and cinnamon mixed together, and when you  

shall want to ready for the banquet, you shall cast in the platter, on  

top and bottom, the cheese.

And when you want to vary, you can make with out silver beet with a  

small amount of ricotta (cheese).

 

 

Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 16:37:29 +0000

From: nickiandmeat att.net

Subject: [Sca-cooks] RE: Further ravoli refinement

To: sca-cooksat ansteorra.org (Group-SCACooks),

        CalontirCooksGuildat yahoogroups.com (Group-CCooks)

 

51 C   TO MAKE TEN PLATTERS OF OBLONG RAVOLI IN THE LOMBARDY STYLE, FOR A  

DAY OF MEAT AND FOR LENT

 

Libro Novo (Banchetti) by Cristoforo Messisbugo

from the 1557 edition of the Libro Novo printed in Venice

translated by Basilius Phocas (MKA Charles A. Potter)

 

Take Swiss chard well washed, and mince, and you shall fry it in six  

ounces of fresh butter, note that it does not take the smoke.  And then  

when it shall be fried you shall leave it to cool a while, then you  

shall put it in a pot with two pounds of good hard cheese well grated,  

and four eggs, and four ounces of sugar, a quarter (ounce) of pepper,  

and a ounce of cinnamon, and you shall mix everything well together.

        Then you shall make your pastry sheet with a small amount of butter  

and an egg, and then make your small ravioli long, which you shall cook  

in good broth for a day of meat and for a Lenten day in water with  

butter. And then when they shall be ready for the banquet, you shall  

put over them a pound of good grated cheese, and a quarter (ounce) of  

pepper, and three ounces of sugar, blend together everything.

        And then when they shall be ready to set for the banquet you shall  

cover them with other plates, and you shall put them over hot ashes, so  

that they would stay hot till it is enough that you shall want to send  

to table.  And note that such like small ravioli you with it can serve,  

and alone, and for covering capons, ducks, pigeons, and others you  

want.

 

Okay, this time I tried a different cheese, and a different sugar also.

 

Final recipe ends up resembling the following:

 

Filling:

1 bunch swiss chard (minced or finely chopped)  This comes to approx 1  

& 1/2 to 2 cups.

1 tablespoon cinnamon

1/2 tablespoon grated pepper

1/4 pound grated pecorino tuscano (a slightly salty cheese - but not  

as salty as pecorino romano)

1/4 pound grated Grana Padano (plain Italian hard cheese for grating)

3 eggs

4 tablespoons sugar (raw or muscavo)

 

Dough:

3 cups semolina flour

1 cup unbleached wheat flour

4 eggs

1/4 cup to 1/2 cup water

butter - 4 tablespoons (softened)

 

1 beaten egg (for sealing)

1 gallon boiling chicken broth - can substitute water and 1 stick butter

 

Mix dough up and allow to sit in refrigerator while mixing up filling.

Mix grated cheeses, sugar, pepper and cinnamon together.  Remove 1/2  

cup of this mixture and set it aside (to be used for topping later).

Add swiss chard and eggs to main mixture and thoroughly incorporate the  

eggs and swiss chard with the cheese and spice mixture.

 

Remove a quarter of the dough from the refrigerator.  Roll out as  

thinly and as rectangularly as possible. Take a beaten egg and brush  

onto 1 / 2 the dough.  Daub rounded teaspoons of the cheese/chard  

mixture onto the egg-brushed side of the dough at regular intervals  

about an inch apart.  Fold the non-egg brushed side of the dough over  

the top.  Tamp down gently between the mounds of filling.  Use a  

cutting utensil of your choice to cut and seal the individual squares  

of ravoli.

Set aside and repeat with another quarter of the dough.  Repeat until  

all dough and filling is used up.

 

Drop a handful of the ravoli squares into the boiling broth one at a  

time. They will float when they are almost done cooking.  Cook for  

another 2 - 3 minutes after they begin to float.  Remove and strain.  

Cook small batches so that the ravoli do not stick together.  Sprinkle  

with the reserved cheese and spice mixture just before serving.

 

NOTES: I used the pecorino and that made a tremendous flavor  

difference in the set I did with raw/turbinado sugar.  The set I did  

with the muscovo sugar - the actual flavor of the sugar tended to  

overwhelm the flavor of the cheese - but was very tasty nonetheless.    

I had to process the raw sugar though my processor to grind it finer  

otherwise I had gritty textured (after cooking no less) ravoli filling.

 

Further observations - I have some of the uncooked ravioli in the  

freezer as well as the cooked to test out freezing/making ahead for  

feasts possibilities.  I'll let you all know how that turns out.

 

Kateryn de Develyn

writing this day from the Barony of Coeur d'Ennui in the Kingdom of  

Calontir

 

 

Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 05:15:09 -0700 (PDT)

From: Louise Smithson <helewyseat yaoo.com>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] sugar and flour in 16th c Italy (was the thread

        on     pasta)

To: sca-cooksat ansteorra.org

 

I had to get involved in this thread. The interesting thing is that the  

posted redactions are accurate to the recipes. However, the choice of  

brown sugar and semolina are ones I would not have made based on my  

understanding of both the sugar trade in Italy and both the current production of home-made pastas in Italy and recipes from various 16th  

and early 17th century manuscripts.

 

On sugar: by the 16th century Venice was the center of the sugar trade  

for all of Italy.  They had extensive processing facilities both in  

Venice and in Sardinia.  Sugar cane was actually grown in Corsica too.  

They were using the sugar to make trionfi.  Incredible works of boiled  

sugar. What was prized was white sugar, clean sugar and what was often  

referred to as fine sugar.  The recipes all refer to it as a white  

food. They had mastered the art of producing sugar without molasses in  

it. Sugar with molasses will not work to make sugar paste, it just  

won't set, neither can you get it to candy properly to make confits.  

There may have been lower grades of sugar but a high class household,  

one serving food to nobility would pride itself on serving the whitest  

(and therefore healthiest) foods.  So consequently the appropriate  

choice for sugar in most if not all 16th century recipes is actually  

pure white cane sugar.  There are also a lot of posts on this on the  

florilegium.

www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-SWEETS/sugar-sources-msg.html

www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-SWEETS/sugar-msg.html

 

Flour in pasta: interestingly enough very little of the pasta made at  

home by Italians is made from Semolina flour.  I lived there and I  

don't remember it ever being used once.  In Giuliano Buglialli's book  

"Classic techniques of Italian cooking" he gives 6 recipes for pasta  

used commonly in Italy, only one has semolina.  The remainder are made  

with common or garden all purpose flour.  In Italy today the flour used  

is commonly Farina typo O, which is still a low protein flour (compared  

to a hard wheat durham).  It is mostly the dried commercial pasta which  

is made with Durham wheat. If you look at the pasta recipes from 16th  

century sources what they call for mostly is fior di farina, which the  

flower of flour.  Or the finest, whitest, most bolted wheat.  When you  

cook i it will have a softer consistency than al dente pasta made with  

semolina. But considering that some of the early pasta recipes call  

for the pasta to be cooked for 30 minutes and more, al dente may not be  

a!

   desired

texture.

 

> From Scappi: habiasi uno sfoglio di pasta alquanto sottile, fatto di  

> fior di farina, acqua di rose, sale, butiro, zuccaro, & acqua tepida,

Have a sheet of pasta that is relatively thin, made from flour, rose  

water, salt, butter, sugar and warm water

 

> From Giovnni del Turco (1636). Epulario e Segreti vari.

Si piglia fiore de farina, dua ova et sale secondo la quantità che ne  

vorrai fare e si fa pasta con aqqua fredda bene dimenata e distendila  

sottile.

One takes flour, two eggs and salt, dependent on the quntity that you  

want to make, and one makes the pasta with cold water, knead it well  

and stretch it out (roll it out) to a subtle (thin) sheet.

 

> From Messisbugo:

poi farai la pasta con farina, e zaffrano, e un'uovo, e farai le  

spoglie ben sottili

Ten make the pastry with flour, saffron and an egg, and make a sheet  

that is nice and thin

 

Helewyse

 

 

Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 12:34:26 -0400

From: Johna Holloway <johnnaat sitka.engin.umich.edu>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Cacciocavallo with pasta?

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooksat ansteorra.org>

 

Christiane wrote:

> In the north of Italy, where the Lombard ravioli recipe is from, was  

> it more common in period to use soft wheat for pasta-making instead of  

> hard wheat? I've found a very few modern references that say soft  

> wheat is common today in homemade pasta-making in the north of Italy,  

> but those are modern references.

> Gianotta

 

Most of your questions could probably be answered with

reading Pasta. The Story of a Universal Food

by Serventi and Sabban. Read the text and then check out the

footnotes. It was translated and published

in English in 2003 by Columbia University Pres.

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/cup/catalog/data/023112/0231124422.HTM

You could read the original Italian edition, if you want.

It's a really good source for all things pasta.

 

Johnnae

 

 

Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:52:19 -0400

From: Barbara Benson <voxeightat gmail.com>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Pasta Experiment (long)

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooksat ansteorra.org>

 

Greetings,

 

I am working on a new feast with a realitively close turnaround. Right

now I am in research mode. This is an unusual situation for me in that

it is a region and time period where there are no culinary

manuscripts. By preference I tend to stick very late period and work

with existant manuscripts.

 

Because someone else selected the theme or this feast I find myself

in unfamiliar waters. Specifically Norman Sicily at the end of the

reign of Roger II. One of the texts I have been reading for clues as

to what to serve is "Pasta" by Serventi and Sabban. It states that

Sicily during the 12th ad 13th centuries was the primary exporter of

Dried Pasta. So I thought that would be a logical foodstuff to serve.

 

So, further in the text they discuss the different manuscripts that

have directions for preparing the pasta. Apparently the general

Medieva/Rennisance concensus is that pasta, dried or fresh, needed to

be cooked for between 30 minutes to 1 1/2 hours. And the concept of al

Dente is decidedly OOP.

 

So, today I abused some pasta. The only thing that I keep in my house

is Whole Wheat Pasta, so I do not know how that imitates possible

period pasta - it might hold up better than others. I used fettucini

because that is what I had.

 

I put a pot of salted water on to boil and tossed the pasta in (I did

not wait for the boil) and set the timer for 30minutes. Considering

that these same recipes usually call for boiling the pasta in fatty

broth or almond milk I decided that the - gallon of water per pound of

pasta - concept is most likely modern also. I had enough water in the

pot for the pasta to swim a bit, but no more than 3/4 inch headroom.

 

Stirring occasionally I removed some pasta at 30 min to try it out.

Suprisingly it still had some body and did not tend to fall apart as I

assumed it would. By no stretch of the imagination was it "al Dente"

but it had some tooth resistance.

 

I kept the pot going for another 30 minutes to see what would happen.

I stirred occasionally and had to add more water to prevent the pasta

from becoming un-submerged. After the second 30 min I removed

additional pasta for taste testing. This pasta provided no tooth

resistance, but you could pick a single piece up with tongs without it

falling completely apart. The noodles had a silky mouth feel but

retained their noodle shape.

 

Pushing on to the third 30 minutes I started t see some significant

changes. I had to add more water because much of it was boiling off

and being absorbed. About 5 - 10 minutes past the 1st hour I started

to see a skin forming on the surface of the water. I stirred it back

in. After a little while longer there started to be clumps of starch

forming in the water independantly of the noodles. I allowed it to go

for the final 30 minutes until the water had boiled down until the

noodles were almost exposed.

 

The taste test on this was significantly different. It was almost

impossible to pick up a single piece of pasta with tongs, they just

fell apart. But strangely they maintained their identity as noodles.

They fell apart into small noodle chunks, but they did not turn into

bowl of mush as I had thought they might. The mouth feel  was even

softer than before, with the starch being a definite prescence.

 

I saved the pasta water to see what had happened. I walked away and

when I returned a skin of gelatinous stuff had formed on the top (like

pudding). I stirred it in with my fingers and the water itself was

goopy. Lots of starch.

 

So, I just went to the market and purchased regular old linguini and

will repeat my experiment with the different pasta. I have no idea

what, if anything, will be different.

 

If anyone else has experimented with this I would love to hear your

results. Also, if anyone has any suggestions as to places I might look

to find more info on the Cuisine of Norman Sicily I would love to hear

it. I will append a list of books I am currently woking with.

 

Glad Tidings,

--Serena da Riva

 

books I am reading for Norman Sicily inspiration:

Pomp and Sustanance - 25 Years of Sicilian Cooking - Simeti

Pasta- Serventi and Sabban

Celebrating Italy - Field

The Norman Kingdom of Sicily - Matthew

Roman Cooery - Grant

Taste of Ancient Rome - Giacosa

A Book of Middle Eastern Food - Roden

The Anon Andalusian Cookbook

Siren Feasts - Dalby

 

 

Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:39:35 -0500 (GMT-05:00)

From: Christiane <christianetrueat earthlink.net>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Pasta experiment (long)

To: sca-cooksat ansteorra.org

 

Because someone else selected the theme for this feast I find myself

in unfamiliar waters. Specifically Norman Sicily at the end of the

reign of Roger II. One of the texts I have been reading for clues as

to what to serve is "Pasta" by Serventi and Sabban. It states that

Sicily during the 12th and 13th centuries was the primary exporter of

Dried Pasta. So I thought that would be a logical foodstuff to serve.

 

So, further in the text they discuss the different manuscripts that

have directions for preparing the pasta. Apparently the general

Medieval/Rennisance concensus is that pasta, dried or fresh, needed to

be cooked for between 30 minutes to 1 1/2 hours. And the concept of al

Dente is decidedly OOP.

=============================================================

 

Al dente may not be as OOP as you think.

 

I have, myself, cooked dried pasta for at least half an hour, in broth  

or a broth-like sauce. The key was a very low heat that produced an  

extremely gentle simmer. Done right, you don't even have to add liquid  

to it. Yes, the liquid in the pan will reduce, but that's the idea  

anyway.

 

Americans tend to boil the hell out of their pasta, I've been told. The  

way my aunts and my grandmother cooked pasta, and the way I've been  

doing it, is bring the water to a boil, add the pasta, boil for a  

minute, and then turn the heat way down and let it barely simmer for 25  

minutes. Sure, it takes longer, but I have never overcooked my pasta in  

this fashion. Some folks will boil the water, add the pasta, boil for  

longer (5 minutes), and then shut off the heat and let the pasta sit in  

the extremely hot water for awhile. The pasta turns al dente and the  

cook can turn her attention to other matters without worrying about the  

pasta boiling over.

 

I have never done open-hearth cooking, but I would imagine boiling in  

this fashion would be similar to swinging the hook to put the pot over  

the fire, and then swinging it away from most of the heat. I would also  

think this is a more efficient use of limited hearth space and fuel.  

It's tricks like these that the recipe books don't tell us, because  

every cook then knew these things.

 

Oh, BTW, the most notable Norman contribution to Sicilian cooking is  

salt cod. I personally think this is why Roger kept the Muslim cooks  

around. Unfortunately some Sicilian-American families are still  

subjecting their families to baccala on Christmas Eve to this very day.  

I pity them, unless they of course love baccala, then I can only be  

puzzled.

 

For your dayboard, if you have one, please do think about the chicken  

baked in bread recipe that came from the emir of Catania.

 

Gianotta

 

 

Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:03:38 -0400

From: Barbara Benson <voxeightat gmail.com>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re Pasta Experiment Update

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooksat ansteorra.org>

 

On 6/14/05, Vladimir Armbruster <vladimir_armbrusterat hotmail.com> wrote:

> Keep us informed as to the futures of this, this missive was a very

> interesting read!

 

Greetings,

 

OK, an update. I went out and purchased standard semolina based pasta

as opposed to the whole wheat and repeated my experiment. The results

were not exactly what I expected. I began with linguine of between 1/8

and 1/4 inch wide.

 

The results at 30 minutes were almost identical. More "tooth" than I

expected, but not too sticky. When I was about 10 - 15 minutes past

the 30 min mark I began seeing "free range gluten" and a skin forming

as opposed to this occurring between 1 and 1 1/2 hours with the whole

wheat. But the texture at 1 hr was very similar to the 1 hr mark with

the whole wheat, only not as grainy. In the whole wheat you could

definitely tell there were larger bits of wheat in there with the

grainy texture among the silky feeling pasta. With the regular pasta

it was just silky with some slimy just for fun.

 

If you had just come in after an hour and a half and looked in my pot

you would swear that I was cooking Japanese Udon style noodles. The

noodles had puffed up to 3 times the original size and were snowy

white. And this is where I had my big surprise. They were fall apart

tender, but not so much as the whole wheat noodles were. They had a

lovely silky feel in the mouth and the weight of long noodles would

make them fall apart if lifted.

 

Again I saved the pasta water and again it gelatanized. (sp?). One

thing I did differently was that I left all of the pasta in the

strainer over the sink and then went out to eat. I wanted to see what

it did when it cooled. I expected what my hubby affecionately calls

"block o' starch" but that is not what happened. After a couple of

hours I was still able to toss the noodles and they did not stick to

each other particularly badly. They did stick, but it was not

difficult to separate them. Of course the noodles that were on the

surface of the mound had hardened and dried out, but the rest were not

in bad shape.

 

The other difference was that I had my husband home to taste the

process. He did not mind the 30 minute version, said it was a bit soft

but no problem. He really did not like the 1 hour version. He has

major texture issues with the elbow macaroni that you typically get

with macaroni and cheese and he said it reminded him of that. But

surprisingly he did not mind the 1 1/2 hour version. I believe it got

beyond that point of slimy and that is what bothered the hubby.

 

So, that's the scoop. Next step is to figure out what to serve it with

and how that works.

 

Glad Tidings,

Serena da Riva

 

 

Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:49:42 -0700 (PDT)

From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshavat yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Manti

To: Christiane <christianetrueat earthlink.net>,    Cooks within the SCA

        <sca-cooksat ansteorra.org>

 

Not by that name.  There is a similar Persian dish called "joshparag",

which is a meat ravioli

cooked in yoghury and triangular in shape, but two arms of the triangle

are twisted together.

Charles Perry doesn't mention manti as a relative.  He does link it to

Turkish meat pie called

"borek" and to a Russian meat ravioli "pelmeni".

 

As for "Medieval Arab Cookery", Amazon wants $60 for the book.  

Hopefully, you have another $35 +

s/h gift certificate?

 

Huette

 

 

--- Christiane <christianetrueat earthlink.net> wrote:

 

> Last night, we went to the other Turkish restaurant for dinner. My

> husband stuck with doner

> kebab, but I tried manti, a Turkish meat-filled ravioli. I am now

> hooked.

> The ravioli were small, triangular, and homemade, with a perfect pasta

> covering surrounding

> delicately spiced ground meat. They came bathed in a sauce of yogurt,

> garlic, and cayenne pepper

> with a little butter. Maybe a touch of sour cream. No tomato.

> So, I went looking online today for manti references, and one I pulled

> up was a reference from

> "Serving the Guest: a Sufi Cookbook and Art Gallery." The reference

> said manti were one of the

> most ancient dishes in Turkic cuisine. How ancient, I don't know. Does

> "Medieval Arab Cookery"

> make mention of them? (by the end of July this book should be mine,

> mine, mine, I have a $25

> gift certificate to Amazon.com).

> Gianotta

 

 

Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:14:48 -0500 (GMT-05:00)

From: Christiane <christianetrueat earthlink.net>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Manti

To: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshavat yahoo.com>,      Cooks within the SCA

        <sca-cooksat ansteorra.org>

 

Not by that name.  There is a similar Persian dish called "joshparag",  

which is a meat ravioli

cooked in yoghury and triangular in shape, but two arms of the triangle  

are twisted together.

Charles Perry doesn't mention manti as a relative.  He does link it to  

Turkish meat pie called

"borek" and to a Russian meat ravioli "pelmeni".

 

---------This was definitely not pie-like. I've been looking for manti  

recipes on the Web; the ravioli are cooked separately and then covered  

with the yogurt sauce. Found out that manti are called in modern Turkey  

are called "Tatar bregi" or "boerek of the Tatars." Manti were said to  

have originated in central Asia; I found some Uzbek references to them.

 

Gianotta

 

 

Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 22:57:53 -0400

From: ranvaigat columbus.rr.com

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Manti

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooksat ansteorra.org>

 

> Not by that name.  There is a similar Persian dish called

> "joshparag", which is a meat ravioli

> cooked in yoghury and triangular in shape, but two arms of the

> triangle are twisted together.

> Charles Perry doesn't mention manti as a relative.  He does link it

> to Turkish meat pie called

> "borek" and to a Russian meat ravioli "pelmeni".

 

Josh means goat or mutton or meat in Indian cooking, and I would

guess that it means the same in Persian.  Parag sounds a lot like

Pierogi, which is a Polish filled dumpling or pastry.  Filling

wrapped with pasta and boiled or pastry and fried.  So Joshparag

could mean meat dumpling.. basically a meat ravioli.

 

---------This was definitely not pie-like.

 

Borek or bric are a filling wrapped with flaky pastry or these days

filo and either baked or fried.  Some are appetizer size, some are a

handheld meal,  some are a pie.

 

Ranvaig

 

 

Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:33:54 -0400

From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"

        <adamantius.magisterat verizon.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Manti

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooksat ansteorra.org>

 

On Jun 24, 2005, at 10:57 PM, ranvaigat columbus.rr.com wrote:

 

>> Not by that name.  There is a similar Persian dish called

>> "joshparag", which is a meat ravioli

>> cooked in yoghury and triangular in shape, but two arms of the

>> triangle are twisted together.

>> Charles Perry doesn't mention manti as a relative.  He does link

>> it to Turkish meat pie called

>> "borek" and to a Russian meat ravioli "pelmeni".

> Josh means goat or mutton or meat in Indian cooking, and I would

> guess that it means the same in Persian.  Parag sounds a lot like

> Pierogi, which is a Polish filled dumpling or pastry.  Filling

> wrapped with pasta and boiled or pastry and fried.  So Joshparag

> could mean meat dumpling.. basically a meat ravioli.

> ---------This was definitely not pie-like.

> Borek or bric are a filling wrapped with flaky pastry or these days

> filo and either baked or fried.  Some are appetizer size, some are

> a handheld meal,  some are a pie.

> Ranvaig

 

I STR there being a recipe for shushbarrak (see joshparag above) in

al-Baghdadi, and the dish is still made in virtually the same way in

parts of North Africa and, presumably, still in parts of the Middle

East. I know I've seen it in modern cookbooks: sometimes the

frequently-used garlic-mint-yogurt sauce is a raw combination, or it

can be a yogurt-based "white sauce" stabilized with some kind of meal

or starch. It seems likely kishik (sp?) might occasionally (or

frequently) be used, that dried, powdered yogurt-bulgur mixture.

Because of the starch, it can be brought to a boil without fear of

curdling.

 

As mentioned elsewhere, the dough is pretty much a standard eggless

pasta, rolled out thin ("like cut tutmaj"), and filled like ravioli,

agnolotti, etc., and boiled, not baked. I think the identifying

characteristic common to all of these dishes people have been

discussing is the fact that the food is wrapped in dough.

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:56:25 -0700 (PDT)

From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshavat yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Manti

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooksat ansteorra.org>

 

This is from "Medieval Arab Cookery", page 254, third paragraph:

 

"The word was 'joshparag'[there is a line over the o that I cannot reproduce], from 'josh', the root  of the verb 'to boil', and an uncertain second element whigh may be related to 'parcha', 'piece'.  The obscurity of the derivation had been felt even by Iranians, because the word had been altered to 'gush-e barreh', 'lamb's ear'.  In Arabic, the word has also been altered by folk

etymology to 'shushbarak' or 'shishbarak', as if connected with the words for skewer and the small Turkish meat pie 'borek'."

 

Sometimes reading too quickly is a dangerous thing.  Charles Perry didn't say that it was connected to borek.  I misread what he wrote.  Sorry.

 

Huette

 

 

Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 12:57:21 -0700

From: lilinahat earthlink.net

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] paella

To: sca-cooksat ansteorra.org

 

Cealian Of Moray wrote:

>   I tend to believe noodles would have been a more modern adaptation. Less

> likely to be period then say rice or peas, beans.  Not sure how fast noodles

> would have spread form Italy into the Iberian peninsula.

 

Why would noodles have to come to the Iberian peninsula from Italy?

 

The Muslim arrived in the Iberian Peninsula in 711. There's a long

history of noodles in Islamic cuisine, both long and short noodles.

And the non-Muslim Iberians could learn from the Muslims, since there

was a great deal of cultural sharing and intermarriage.

 

As for noodles in Italy, there are some recipes that suggest that the

Romans had some noodly dishes, using short pasta bits. Since the

Romans had long been in the Iberian Peninsula before the Fall of

Rome, it's conceivable that short pasta bits came to Iberia that way.

--

Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)

the persona formerly known as Anahita

 

 

Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 11:43:48 -0400

From: Cindy Renfrow <cindyat thousandeggs.com>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Fwd: History of pasta

To: sca-cooksat ansteorra.org

 

Hello! I thought some of you might enjoy this:

 

> One site on gastronomy : www.histoiredepates.net with an original text

> of Liliane Plouvier. History of pasta from Babylonne to XXI° century.

> Old receipes. For the moment the site is only in french.

 

 

Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 12:11:30 -0500

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnaat sitka.engin.umich.edu>

Subject: Re: Pasta, noodles, mush and [Sca-cooks] Apicius' polenta

        recipe

To: grizlyat mindspring.com, Cooks within the SCA

        <sca-cooksat ansteorra.org>

 

You might want to loan in or buy a copy of

Pasta   The Story of a Universal Food by

 

Silvano Serventi and Françoise Sabban

Translated by Antony Shugaar

 

Columbia University Press.

 

It's an academic text  goes into pasta in the west and the east.

Less than $20 now on Amazon.

 

Johnnae

 

Nick Sasso wrote:

> You make a good food archeology point here.  snipped

> This is a fascinating line of thought for me in running through the rampant

> variation on boiled semolina/grain (course to fine) that turns variously

> into sheet pasta, extruded and shaped pastas, dumplings and puddings of

> sort.

> niccolo difrancesco

> (a fervent devotee to the simple elegance of pasta as food and  

> palette for art)

 

 

Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 07:59:17 -0800

From: "Nick Sasso" <grizlyat mindspring.com>

Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Sheet Pasta for Ravioli

To: "'Kerri Martinsen'" <kerrimartat mindspring.com>,      "'Cooks within the

        SCA'" <sca-cooksat ansteorra.org>

 

If you can get access to USFoodservice supplier through a friend who has a

restaurant or other account with them, their Roseli brand label has sheet

pasta for about $16 for 10 pounds (40 sheets).  They are 8" x 10.5" to fit

half size pans, and hold well frozen for months.  Lasagna was never so easy!

They are simple to use, and the texture and taste is very good.  I assume

Sysco and other foodservice companies have something similar.

 

The companies down here will actually set up accounts for SCA groups, so it

could be worth looking into.  You'd have to get the order through your

group, and probably have to go pick it up.  Not a simple thing like going to

the grocery mega-mart, but a quality product in case others are  

interested.

 

niccolo difrancesco

 

> I am making squash ravioli for a feast in January and have a

> question:  To save time/labor it was suggested to use wonton

> wrappers as the pasta for the ravioli.  Well I tried that and

> didn't like it.  The texture was just wrong.

> anyone have a suggestion for me for A)a decent pre-made

> pasta for ravioli B) where I could get same, or C) any clues

> on making pasta by hand.

> Vitha

 

 

Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 09:54:07 -0400

From: "grizly" <grizlyat mindspring.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Early morning craving...

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooksat lists.ansteorra.org>

 

-----Original Message-----

> And some boring fettucine, too.  A little gorgonzola, and it

> becomes a gnocchi sauce.  Some sheeted pastred, spinach and

> feta, and you get spinach lasagna ala bechamella (technically

> ala alfredo).

> niccolo pizza difrancesco

> (see? Pizza really is my middle name)

 

Gnocchi. He wrote "gnocchi".  Niccolo, yer a dangerous man.

 

And me having just eaten breakfast, too... > > > > >

 

You just THOUGHT I was dangerous:

 

http://franiccolo.home.mindspring.com/se_vuoi_gnocchi.htm

 

 

Se vuoi I gnocchi: Togli lo cascio fresco e pestalo: poscia togli la farina

et intridi con tuorla d'uova a modo di magliacci. Poni il paiuolo al fuoco

con acqua e quando bolle, poni lo triso in su in uno taglieri, fallo andare

colla cazza nel paiuolo, e quando, sono, cotti, poni sopra li taglieri e

getta su assai cacio grattugiato.

 

If you want some Gnocchi, take some fresh cheese and mash it, then take some

flour and mix it with egg yolks as in making magliacci. Put a pot full of

water on the fire and, when it begins to boil, put the mixture in a dish and

drop into the pot with a ladle. And when they are cooked, place them on

dishes and sprinkle with plenty of grated cheese.

 

Niccolo's Recipe

serves 6 to 8

 

1 pound cream cheese

2 cups flour as needed

salt to taste      

6 egg yolks

6 to 8 tablespoons grated cheese

pepper to taste

 

Beat cream cheese into a creamy paste (a stand mixer does this very well).

If it is too stiff, then push it through a ricer, food mill or sieve.

Completely mix in the flour using your hands or paddle on your mixer.  Salt

and pepper to taste and add in the egg yolks one by one. Mix well before

adding next yolk.

 

For accurate portion control: Gently but firmly knead the dough until it is

supple and smooth and no longer overly soft. Chill for at least 2 hours in

refrigerator to let rest and hydrate.  Cut into 4 equal pieces and roll with

your hands into a "rope" about the diameter of your index thumb. Cut off

dumplings every half inch and set aside in a single layer.

 

* * * For a more accurate preparation, place the whole glob of dough on a

plate and use a teaspoon to drop small dumplings directly into the water * * *

 

Bring large pot of water to boil. Salt so that it is almost the taste of sea

water. Drop a bunch of the dumplings (do not crowd the pan) into the water

and allow the dumplings to simmer until they rise to the surface. Cook for

45 to 60 seconds more.  Remove with a skimmer and drain well.

 

Sprinkle liberally with grated cheese and serve immediately. These can hold

for 30 to 45 minutes in a warm pan in a single layer, but will decline in

quality and get gummy as they sit longer.

 

ORIGINAL TEXT & TRANSLATION

Frammento du un libro di cucina del sec. XIV by Olindo Guerrini as

found in The Medieval Kitchen: Recipes from France and Italy, by  

Odile Redon et al.

 

 

Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 10:23:57 -0400

From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"

        <adamantius.magisterat verizon.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Early morning craving...

To: grizlyat mindspring.com, Cooks within the SCA

        <sca-cooksat lists.ansteorra.org>

 

On Aug 7, 2006, at 9:54 AM, grizly wrote:

 

> For accurate portion control: Gently but firmly knead the dough until it is

> supple and smooth and no longer overly soft. Chill for at least 2 hours in

> refrigerator to let rest and hydrate.  Cut into 4 equal pieces and roll with

> your hands into a "rope" about the diameter of your index thumb. Cut off

> dumplings every half inch and set aside in a single layer.

> * * * For a more accurate preparation, place the whole glob of dough on a

> plate and use a teaspoon to drop small dumplings directly into the

> water * *

 

I STR being the poor slob who made the goat-cheese-and-semolina

gnocchi at la Colombe d'Or for one summer, and for speed and

uniformity what we did was pipe them in long lines through a half-

inch pastry tube onto parchment-lined sheet pans, chilled them, and

then cut them with a bench knife and rolled the pieces in more semolina.

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 21:30:00 +1300

From: Adele de Maisieres <ladyadeleat paradise.net.nz>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Is couscous Medieval?

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooksat lists.ansteorra.org>

 

Pat Griffin wrote:

> I was under the impression that while couscous could have been made during

> our period of interest, that we have no documentation to that fact.  The

> question has come up on (of all things) the medieval encampments list, and

> set me to wondering.  Can one of my dear friends tell me what the  

> earliest reference seems to be?

 

I think it's mentioned in the anonymous Andalusian cookbook of the 14th

century.

 

http://daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Cookbooks/Andalusian/

andalusian_contents.htm

--

Adele de Maisieres

 

 

Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 08:06:52 +0100

From: Volker Bach <carlton_bachat yahoo.de>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Is couscous Medieval?

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooksat lists.ansteorra.org>

 

Am Donnerstag, 25. Januar 2007 08:27 schrieb Pat Griffin:

> I was under the impression that while couscous could have been made during

> our period of interest, that we have no documentation to that fact.  The

> question has come up on (of all things) the medieval encampments list, and

> set me to wondering.  Can one of my dear friends tell me what the  

> earliest reference seems to be?

 

Perry discusses this in his essay 'Couscous and its cousins' (found in

Medieval Arab Cookery pp. 233-238). He believes it was invented in North

Africa around the 11th-13th century. It was certainly established, though

possibly still quite new, in the fifteenth and known in the fourteenth.

 

Giano

 

 

Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 10:43:55 -0500

From: "Pat Griffin" <ldyanneduboscat yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Mac & Cheese OOP

To: <ringofkingsat mindspring.com>,    "'Cooks within the SCA'"

        <sca-cooksat lists.ansteorra.org>

 

> Certainly your posted recipe is OOP (though quite yummy), but Mac

> & Cheese OOP?   Naw.  I have a period reference for Macrows circa

> 1390 that was served at the Court of Richard II.  Anyone else

> found any period Mac & Cheese since I posed this question to the

> list several years ago?

 

> Akim Yaroslavich

 

> From THE FORME OF CURY,

 

A ROLL OF ANCIENT ENGLISH COOKERY.

 

Compiled, about A.D. 1390, by the Master-Cooks of King RICHARD II,:

 

MACROWS [1]. XX.IIII. XII.

 

Take and make a thynne foyle of dowh. and kerve it on peces, and cast

hem on boillyng water & see? it wele. take chese and grate it and

butter cast bynethen and above as losyns. and serue forth.

 

And

 

Para hazer macarrones, vulgarmente llamados fideos -- To make macaroni,

vulgarly called "fideos"

Source: Granado, 1599

Translation: Brighid ni Chiarain (Robin Carroll-Mann

 

Take two pounds of flour, and one pound of grated white bread passed  

through the colander, and knead it with fat broth that

is boiling, or with water, adding four beaten egg yolks to mix with the

dough, and when the dough is made, in such a manner

that it is not very hard, nor too soft, but that it has its  

perfection, and sprinkle both [sides of] the cheese grater with

the best of the flour, and put the paste upon the grater, and make the

fideos, and not having a grater make them upon a

board, drawing the fideos [the length of] three fingers thinly, and  

put the least flour that you can, so that they remain

more tender, and have a care that you do not feed it again, in such a  

manner that it becomes too soft or liquid, and when

they are made let them rest a little while, and then make them cook  

in fat broth that boils, or in water in a wide vessel,

and when they are cooked, fit them on plates with grated cheese, and  

with fresh buffalo cheese (which in Italy is called

probatura) which is not very salty, also grated, and with sugar, and