p-kitchens-msg – 10/11/10

Period kitchens and kitchen staff. Fireplaces.

NOTE: See also the files: Kentwell-Hall-art, p-menus-msg, ovens-msg, p-tableware-msg. utensils-msg, brooms-msg, candlesticks-msg, furniture-msg, p-cooks-msg.

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 08:39:53 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - kitchen staff?

Laguz at mediaone.net writes:
<< Where can I find info on what the average 1500's kitchen was staffed by and
 stocked with?
 andy >>

There is a wonderful chapter at the end of Scully's "Early French Cooking'
that describes a day in the life of Chiquart. It describes in vivid detail the
various staff and support personael , normal meals, banquets, provisioning,
disbursment, preparation, etc. of the typical royal household of the time and
the ups and downs of being a Kitchen Steward. Fascinating reading and a must
read for anyone who really has a desire to know what it was like to perform
this duty.

Ras


Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 09:45:41 EDT
From: WOLFMOMSCA at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - kitchen staff?

_The Royal Palaces of Tudor England_ by Simon Thurley, ISBN 0-300-05420-3.
Chapter 9 is a splendid batch of info from many period sources about the
kitchen, its staff, and equipment.  Anyone interested in the general daily
life of people in a royal castle should RUN AND BUY THIS BOOK!  It's
excellent.  Chapters include:
Royal Houses in the Middle Ages... Purpose and Function... Style and Form...
The Outward Chambers... Sports & Recreation... Hygiene & Sanitation, among
others.  It even has a full color pic of Queen Elisabeth's potty chair (I
smell an Art/Sci project)  ;-).  329 illustrations, most in color.  It won't
be cheap.  I got mine thru the Yale U Press annual closeout sale for a song.
Wonderful source material for anyone interested in late period castle life.

Wolfmother


Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 14:03:57 -0600 (MDT)
From: Mary Morman <memorman at oldcolo.com>
Subject: Re: SC - kitchen staff?

The new book Breakfast at Bradgate has wonderful lists of supplies and
servants from an early 17th century inventory.  Fascinating reading.

elaina


Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 22:22:03 -0700
From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" <acrouss at gte.net>
Subject: Re: SC - kitchen staff?

And of course the treatise by Chiquart (a 15th century cuisinier) details
exactly what personages, their wages, and what supplies are neccessary fo
rthe kitchen of the Duke of Savoy.

check out the translation by Scully.

- --Anne-Marie


Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 16:57:37 -0400From: "Alma Johnson" <chickengoddess at mindspring.com>Subject: Re: SC - kitchen staff info sourceandy oppenheim wrote:> Where can I find info on what the average 1500's kitchen was staffed by and> stocked with?Check out "A History of Private Life Vol II - Revelations of the MedievalWorld" George Duby ed.The section entitled "The Aristocratic Households of Feudal France", theexact part concerning the meal starts on pg. 73.  Fra Niccolo and myselfwere inspired by this to add a concierge to our staff for our upcoming jointeffort.  But it's got nifty names for every type of job, along with thehierarchy for servants and lots more nifty info.  Enjoy.Rhiannon C.

Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 22:20:03 -0400
From: Phil & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - course plan

andy oppenheim wrote:
> I have enough recipes for teaching the course. I will teach 1 peasant and
> royal meal and feast. So what I am looking for is how a kitchen was
> organizes and what they were stocked with

Taillevent, in Le Viandier, lists the spices any good cook should have.
Chiquart speaks a bit about kitchen organizing and staffing in Du Fait de
Cuisine, and Le Menagier de Paris speaks of what wines, wafers, spices and
other provisions are needed for what seems to be a somewhat bourgoise wedding
feast. These would, of course, represent a fairly tight focus, being
basically French from within 120 years of each other.

Adamantius
Østgardr, East


Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 13:43:32 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - course plan

At 9:28 PM -0400 10/21/98, andy oppenheim wrote:
>I have enough recipes for teaching the course. I will teach 1 peasant and
>royal meal and feast. So what I am looking for is how a kitchen was
>organizes and what they were stocked with
>Andy

See the first part of Du Fait de Cuisine--there is a commercially published
Terrance Scully translation, and my translation is in Cariadoc's cookbook
collection vol. 2 and (I think) up on Cariadoc's website. Also:

"In a kitchen there should be a small table on which cabbage may be minced,
and also lentils, peas, shelled beans, beans in the pod, millet, onions,
and other vegetables of the kind that can be cut up.  There should be also
pots, tripods, a mortar, a hatchet, a pestle, a stirring stick, a hook, a
cauldron, a bronze vessel, a small pan, a baking pan, a meathook, a
griddle, small pitchers, a trencher, a bowl, a platter, a pickling vat, and
knives for cleaning fish.  In a vivarium let fish be kept, in which they
can be caught by net, fork, spear, or light hook, or with a basket.  The
chief cook should have a cupboard in the kitchen where he may store away
aromatic spices, and bread flour sifted through a sieve-and used also for
feeding small fish-may be hidden away there.  Let there be also a cleaning
place where the entrails and feathers of ducks and other domestic fowl can
be removed and the birds cleaned.  Likewise there should be a large spoon
for removing foam and skimming.  Also there should be hot water for
scalding fowl.

"Have a pepper mill and a hand mill.  Small fish for cooking should be put
into a pickling mixture, that is, water mixed with salt...  To be sure,
pickling is not for all fish, for these are of different kinds:  mullets,
soles, sea eels, lampreys, mackerel, turbot, sperlings, gudgeons, sea
bream, young tunnies, cod, plaice, stargazers[?], anglers, herring,
lobsters fried in half an egg, bougues, sea mullets, and oysters.  There
should also be a garde-robe pit through which the filth of the kitchen may
be evacuated.  In the pantry let there be shaggy towels, tablecloth, and an
ordinary hand towel which shall hang from a pole to avoid mice.  Knives
should be kept in the pantry, an engraved saucedish, a saltceller, a cheese
container, a candelabra, a lantern, a candlestick, and baskets.  In the
cellar or storeroom should be casks, tuns, wineskins, cups, cup cases,
spoons, ewers, basins, baskets, pure wine, cider, beer, unfermented wine,
mixed wine, claret, nectar, mead... piment, pear wine, red wine, wine from
Auvergne, clove-spiced wine for gluttons whose thirst is unquenchable..."

From De nominibus utenslium by Alexander Neckam (1157-1217), quoted (and
translated from the Latin) in Daily Living in the Twelfth Century by Urban
Tigner Holmes, Jr., University of Wisconsin Press, 1952, pp.93-94

Elizabeth/Betty Cook.


Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 20:06:48 +1100
From: "Phillippa Venn-Brown" <p.vbrown at tsc.nsw.edu.au>
Subject: Re: SC - Which books?

Bonne said
"A late period Renaissance feast will be offered, for in the mind of the
> autocrat, it is always 1531." I've had offers of the loan of books.  With that
> quotation in mind, which books do I want to borrow?  If one of
> you experienced cooks were faced with this, what is the first book you would
> reach for?  And per chance, what recipe might you be hunting up?

Good my lady.
While traveling in England a few years ago I did Visit Hampton Court Palace
and especially their reconstructed Tudor kitchens. It was a marvelous
experience. They have it set out with dishes in preparation for Henry
VIII's midsummer feast of 1540.

The English History or Royal Trust people have published two books which
might be helpful in your quest. One is a guide to the recreation of the
kitchens with lots of photos and lots of info about kitchens and the other
is a cookery book containing some of the recipes used (both in the original
and redacted) with lots of photos too. I am not sure of the titles but will
check them when I am home and will post them on Friday when I get back to
work. While not exhaustive they are certainly worth a look.

Filippa Ginevra


Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 21:41:11 -0500
From: mermayde at juno.com (Christine A Seelye-King)
Subject: SC - Feast Service

I just sorted out my rather general files marked "Food" and "Recipies",
which had gotten so huge the computer was stalling out when I tried to
add to them,  into LOTS of food category files.  While doing that, I
found a few things on Feast Service that was topical to the 'Tablecloths
and Christmas' thread.  (BTW, I was referring to the Introduction letter
just recently posted from a lady in ?An Tir? who said her most recent
foray into period feasting included reseached folds in the tablecloths, I
am still curious to hear more about that.)  In the mean time, here are a
few tidbits about feast service.
        Christianna

"in a period feast there was a well-developed
hierarchical division of labor among the servers of a feast-  i.e. the
"butler" was responsible for the selection and serving of drinks/wines/ales
from the lord's cellars, the "carver" was responsible for the carving and
portioning of the meats served, the "sutler" was responsible for the
preparation of the trenchers and the slicing and serving of the breads,
etc... etc...

> You think precedence in the SCA is complex and/or confusing? Well,
> people in late period frequently couldn't figure it out. People at one
> court couldn't figure out if bakers outranked the meat-carvers at some
> court (the book doesn't say which court). Aren't you glad you're not
> that court's precedence herald??!! :-) :-)
>
> Isabelle

Actually that was more a matter of "serjeantry" than "precedence".
At least at the English Royal court there were certain prerogatives
attendant to the degree of the service done by the individual.
Offices such as the butler, pantler and others in direct service to
the person or chamber of the Monarch were much more lucrative
in their stipends.  For example the Butler (depending upon the
nature of the feast) might be entitled to the cup from which the
King drank.  The pantler might be allowed to keep the loaf ends
and crusts (not a shabby reward considering the quality of the
bread which was served at the royal table).  The Steward could
also lay claim to all the candle-ends and wax pools from the
hall.
Cathal


Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 00:26:28 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - OT - inalienable freedom of speech (and black pepper)

LrdRas at aol.com wrote:
> Of course, the notion that the cook actually did their own spice grinding is
> questionable in itself.  In all likelihood, the average person if they could
> afford spices, would have bought them pre-ground at the apothecary. Cooks for
> large manors and castles would not have ground them themselves.

In general, this is likely the case, as even a scullion had skills that
made him valuable to the Master cook, and the endless pounding would
make him unavailable for other work. If I remember correctly Chiquart
(or is it the fictional Chiquart in the Scully book?) speaks of a
special braying man whose job was to pound stuff in an enormous mortar,
for the gallons of almond milk, f'rinstance, the household would need on
a feast day... .

I also recall Le Menagier's hippocras recipe calls for both whole and
powdered cinnamon to be combined with other spices, and the whole
mixture to be ground to a powder. While hippocras powder and Duke's
powder (the pre-sweetened vesion) could be bought from apothecaries,
it's possible and even likely that the recipe is included in Le
Menagier's text because someone is expected to make it. Maybe not the
butler, but possibly one or another of the stewards he mentions (Le
Menagier may not have had a butler, and on an interesting side note,
Mrs. Beeton's Book of Household Management describes a wide spectrum of
brewing and vintning tasks, such as racking, kegging, decanting, and
honest-to-gosh mashing of malt, etc., as part of a nineteenth-century
butler's duties.)

Adamantius
Østgardr, East


Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 15:53:21 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: SC - Grinding Spices

At 12:26 AM -0500 11/27/98, Philip & Susan Troy wrote:
>LrdRas at aol.com wrote:
>> Of course, the notion that the cook actually did their own spice grinding is
>> questionable in itself.  In all likelihood, the average person if they could
>> afford spices, would have bought them pre-ground at the apothecary.
>>Cooks for large manors and castles would not have ground them themselves.
>
>In general, this is likely the case, as even a scullion had skills that
>made him valuable to the Master cook, and the endless pounding would
>make him unavailable for other work. If I remember correctly Chiquart
>(or is it the fictional Chiquart in the Scully book?) speaks of a
>special braying man whose job was to pound stuff in an enormous mortar,
>for the gallons of almond milk, f'rinstance, the household would need on
>a feast day... .

Chiquart (chief cook for the Duke of Savoy) buys his spices whole, but then
recommends grinding them and storing them in leather bags so they are
available for use when needed; so someone in his kitchen is doing the job.
Le Menagier (Paris upper middle class) recommends that in making sauces,
you grind your spices first and then grind the bread that will thicken the
sauce in the same mortar, so as not to waste any of the spice. He further
advises buying your saffron, at least, whole, because if you buy it ground
you have no idea what it may have been adulturated with.

Elizabeth/Betty Cook


Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 23:22:27 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: SC - Nobles and cooking?

At 1:43 PM -0800 2/13/99, Laura C Minnick wrote:
>('Sides that- I can think of no reason why I, an heiress and poet and
>companion of Christine de Pisan, would even be near the kitchens, so I'm
>breaking form anyway.)

Which raises an interesting question--was cooking seen as something that
noblewomen wouldn't dirty their hand with in period? Or was it assumed that
since part of their job was running a household, they ought to know how it
was done from the ground up?

So far as al-Islam is concerned, I think it is clear that high ranking men
did take an interest in cooking, whether or not they did it themselves. At
least, there are surviving recipes attributed to Ibrahim ibn al Mahdi, who
was a close relative of several caliphs and himself an unsuccessful
claimant to the caliphate at one point. And I believe one of the cookbooks
in the 10th c. collection is attributed to one of the Barmakids, the family
that served as viziers for al-Rashid until he turned on them.

David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/


Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 20:16:10 -0700
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Keeping out the idle curious

At 8:27 AM -0400 4/10/99, LrdRas at aol.com wrote:

>When I am Kitchen Steward, I
>routinely place my personal work station as close to the main door of the
>kitchen as possible specifically so I can stop anyone who comes in the door
>more than 1 step. The typical conversation is " Knives and recipes are over
>there. Can I help you?' or 'If you didn't come in here to work , you are
>using the wrong door.', etc., etc. I also usually designate a middle person
>to head off 'well wishers' and other sorts so only those with feast related
>problems of major importance have access to me during actual feast
>preperation.

Le Menagier de Paris, in his list of the personnel you need to hire for a
big dinner, includes along with water carriers and bread slicers:

"Item, big strong sergeants to guard the door."

Elizabeth/Betty Cook


From: powers at cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Food Research
Date: 10 Jun 1999 13:43:43 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science

I forgot to mention another "labour saving kitchen device"  The main kitchen
for a convent in Rothenberg ODT had a *raised* fireplace---actually a square
stone structure several feet high---the "chimney" was the entire ceiling of
this area so you could walk all around the hearth and didn't have to stoop
to cook!  (IIRC the raised area was over 6' on a side; I'd have to refer to
my notes and pictures. The main reason we visited that museum was that it
still had the *ORIGINAL* kitchen in it.

wilelm the smith


Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 17:10:19 -0600 (MDT)
From: Ann Sasahara <ariann at nmia.com>
Subject: SC - stoves/fireboxes

On Tue, 5 Oct 1999 LrdRas at aol.com wrote:
> macdairi at hotmail.com writes:
> << Was it Ras who said he had picture of one of these stoves? >>
>
> IIRC, one of the pictures at Cindy Renfrow's site that are archived on the
> lindah site shows a center room brickwork with what appear to be a series of
> small fireboxes built into it around the walls of the base, overlaying this
> is a flat surface with a pot or 2 sitting on it. If this is not a stove, I
> would be greatly surprised. Certainly there is no need to conjecture a pot
> with fire directly coming into contact with the pot itself if this is a stove
> type construction. And once the surface was heated it would be a simple
> matter to use the fireboxes to keep the surface variously hot depending on
> the type of woods, etc., were maintained in the firebox and the frequency of
> replacing fuel or damping the flames.
>
> Ras

I have not seen the photos, but I toured the Hampton Court kitchens.  The
roasting hearths and baking ovens were located along the exterior walls.
There was a partition that divided the kitchen in half.  Along the base of
this partition was a white-washed, brick counter with 8 holes in the top.
This was the heating stove.

Interesting things:
1 - there was no flue/chimney for any of these stoves, but the roof was
   2.5 stories above the floor in that area (plenty of smoke room)

2 - each oven had a separate fuel hole below the pothole.  This was done,
    so each pot could be "set" at a different temperature. Very neat idea
    for individual temp. control

3 - the heating ovens were adjacent to the work tables where the coffins
   were set for filling and the serving platters were loaded for carrying
   to the Great Hall.  The pots were 5-8 quarts, so I assume they were
   used for sauces and other "small" volume items.  120 +/- coffins
   may have been set out near the stoves, because that's where there was
   work space, so I assume the filling for 120+ pies was cooked elsewhere
   in the room.

Ariann


Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 19:43:45 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Hauviette's Confits

renfrow at skylands.net writes:
<< There are several kitchen illustrations there
 (http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/food-art/ ).  I think the one you're talking
 about is main kitchen.gif  from Scappi.  >>

Actually you are correct. I must have seen the picture I am talking about
another place. The offset stove in the back right corner of the kitchen in
the picture at http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/food-art/main_kitchen.gif is a
small version of what I had in mind. However, I think that I am going to
retract my original observation of solid flat topped cooking services for
pots. After looking at all the pictures on the site it would seem that the
cooking surfaces were constructed with various sized holes to accommodate
various kettles.

This does not negate the fact that the cooks (or at least the fire tenders)
were very much aware of the qualities of the woods, amounts and sizes to
burn, etc., and they would have had little or no problem maintaining whatever
constant temperature was needed for a particular dish. Anyone who has used a
modern wood stove quickly learns these skills and it is then no more mind
boggling than adjusting the flame on a gas stove.

Ras


Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 14:47:27 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: SC - Garb for Kitchen and Market

While engaged in a little research on Vincenzo Campi, I stumbled onto a site
which comments on garb in paintings of kitchens and markets from the late
16th Century and early 17th Century.  It is a site I found of interest and
may be of interest to others.

The URL is:
http://www.lepg.org/gallery.htm

Bear


Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 02:25:38 -0500 (EST)
From: cclark at vicon.net
Subject: Re: SC - women in the kitchen

mattie wrote:
>does anyone know if there were ever noblewomen working in the kitchen? ...

While I don't know for sure, I doubt that such a thing would have happened
except in very unusual circumstances. Being noble was all about being too
important and powerful to have to work for your living. Nobles tended to
avoid any appearance of being too much like the lower classes.

And a period nobleman's kitchen would not necessarily have been a fun place
to hang out. Forget the single-family kitchen, where cooking is a social
activity. This would have been more like a hot and hectic restaurant
kitchen, where the cooks work hard for long hours to feed dozens or hundreds
of people every day. Some people might enjoy that, but it's an acquired taste.

There is one case that comes to mind, but I don't have access to full
information about it at the moment. I've read that when Richard Duke of
Gloucester (later Richard III) wanted to get married to the sister-in-law of
his elder brother George Duke of Clarence, George hid her away to try to get
out of sharing his wife's inheritance. I don't recall the details, but I
think that maybe he had her work in a kitchen. She got someone to take a
message to Richard, and the rest (as they say) is history. Anyway, if that's
how it happened then it would be a case where a noblewoman was disguised as
a commoner and forced to work in a kitchen as part of that disguise.

Henry of Maldon/Alex Clark


Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 17:11:24 -0800
From: "Wanda Pease" <wandapease at bigfoot.com>
Subject: RE: SC - women in the kitchen

> mattie wrote:
> >does anyone know if there were ever noblewomen working in the
> kitchen? ...
>
> While I don't know for sure, I doubt that such a thing would have happened
> except in very unusual circumstances. Being noble was all about being too
> important and powerful to have to work for your living. Nobles tended to
> avoid any appearance of being too much like the lower classes.

Just a thought on this.  I suspect that there certainly was a bit of not
wishing to look like the lower classes if you were a newly rich (think
Hyacinth Bucket--er.. Bouquet), but mostly it was probably because a noble
woman had way more important things to do than mess in the hot, dirty, noisy
kitchen.  She would be working at being her husband's hostess and
housekeeper, she might work in the still room making drugs or perfumes, work
on finishing garments for the Lord and herself (all that embroidery that we
drool over, and things like that.

I think of noblewomen as Hotel Managers.  They had a great deal of oversight
work to do, and had to assign specific tasks to experts and let them go to
it.  It isn't that they are too "good" for that sort of work, it's that they
were needed elsewhere for a thousand different things.

<snip>
> There is one case that comes to mind, but I don't have access to full
> information about it at the moment. I've read that when Richard Duke of
> Gloucester (later Richard III) wanted to get married to the sister-in-law of
> his elder brother George Duke of Clarence, George hid her away to try to get
> out of sharing his wife's inheritance. I don't recall the details, but I
> think that maybe he had her work in a kitchen. She got someone to take a
> message to Richard, and the rest (as they say) is history. Anyway, if that's
> how it happened then it would be a case where a noblewoman was disguised as
> a commoner and forced to work in a kitchen as part of that disguise.

Anne Neville, Richard's childhood sweetheart and true love.  I've always
wondered why this has never been made into a movie, it's a wonderful love
story.  I suppose we have Thomas More and Shakespeare's character blackening
of Richard to blame.  If you go back and read the real story of their
marriage (not the libel Shakespeare puts into Richard III), it's really
romantic! (sigh....)

Regina Romsey


Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:50:15 EST
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - camp ovens

scowley at uswest.net writes:
<< They especially lend themselves very well to medieval cooking as they are the 
closest thing (IMHO) to doing things the same way as medieval cooks did. >>

Other heat sources that approximate period type heat sources are suspension 
over a fire, baking in a slow oven, removing the lids from a wood stove and 
placing the pot directly on the stove covering the open hole and <gasp> gas 
stoves. Gas burners would be my choice if other heat sources are not 
available. I think Ms. Renfrow has several pictures of maner/castle kitchens 
on her site that  clearly show pots being set on open holes with flames 
underneath. 

Although fire place cookery was often used in manner houses that did not have 
large kitchens, their use was, IMO, mostly restricted to roasting of meats 
and hearth cooking with the occasional suspended pots. General fireplace 
cookery really did not come into it's own as the usual method of cookery 
until the colonial period when it reached it's height of perfection.

Military campaign cookery and tournament cookery was usually accomplished 
with an elaborate field kitchen setup. A picture of an Italian version of 
such a setup can also be accessed through Ms. Renfrow's site.

Ras


Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 02:52:02 +0100From: Thomas Gloning <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>Subject: SC - wait people - biscotti - mead - apology to Betty CookWait people:- -- Rumpolt (1581) has a large section on the people needed for a noblehousehould viz. a banquet. He mentions: Hofmeister, K¸chenmeister,Eink‰ufer, Mundkoch, Silberk‰mmerling, Truchsess/ Schenk/ Mundschenk,F¸rschneider. (About half a page or more for each; nice pictures.)- -- Ruperto de Nola (span. 1525) has a comparable section ("Delosofficios"); it is on page 37-44 of the Iranzo edition; the parallelsection in the earlier Catalan "Libre del coch" (1520) is on p. 33-37 inthe Leimgruber edition.  Thomas

Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 11:49:53 -0800
From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at efn.org>
Subject: Re: SC - wait people in period?

Timothy Buxton wrote:
> The subject of "wait people" brought a question to my mind: do we have a
> good source which lists the assorted servants, servers, butlers, cooks, etc.
> in a period household?  I've seem smidgeons of this information here and
> there, but would love to have (or put together) some kind of semi-solid
> list.

Yup- in fact I'd been going through stuff to answer the question about
hand-washing and serving that was posted, uh, about a week ago (sorry
guys! I'm working on it!)

The short list of specific servants:

Marshal of the Hall (a sort of Maitre d' Hotel)
Usher (facilities director- cleanliness, furnishings, etc.)
Steward
Carver
Ewerer
Sewer/Surveyor (a head server- actually carries dishes, not just
management)
Pantler
Butler

assorted servers and other help

The short list of sources that I have used:

_The Boke of Curtasye_ Sloane MS. 1986, British Museum, 1430-1440.
	In _Early English Meals and Manners_ pp.175-205.

Wynkyn de Worde _The Boke of Kervynge_ 1413. in EEM&M, pp 149-174.

John Russell _The Boke of Nurture_ Harleian MS 4011, British Museum mid
15th c.
	In EEM&M pp 1-112.

_Ffor to Serva a Lord_ early 16th c., in EEM&M, pp. 349-360.

F.J.Furnival, ed. _Early English Meals and Manners_ London, Early
English Text 	Society, 1868.

Henisch, Bridget Ann. _Fast and Feast_, University park, Pennsylvania: 
Pennslylvania State University Press, 1976.

I also have a booklet written by my friend Ray Lischner called "Servers
and Serving in the Middle Ages and Renaissance" that he wrote in 1991,
but I have no idea where it is right now- probably In The Basement.

Just as a note- the EEM&M and EETS stuff usually has a glossary, so
don't let the Middle English bits freak you out. 

Hope this gives you a good start- holler if you have more questions!

'Lainie


Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 16:04:37 EST
From: Bronwynmgn at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - wait people in period?

herald_tim at hotmail.com writes:
<< The subject of "wait people" brought a question to my mind: do we have a 
 good source which lists the assorted servants, servers, butlers, cooks, etc. 
 in a period household?  I've seem smidgeons of this information here and 
 there, but would love to have (or put together) some kind of semi-solid 
 list. >>

The book I mentioned in another thread, The Great Household in Late Medeival 
England, by C. M. Woolgar, goes into some detail on this subject, including 
the numbers of servants employed in different households, and what their 
wages were.

Brangwayna Morgan


Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 23:10:35 EST
From: Seton1355 at aol.com
Subject: SC - Check out THE MIDDLE AGES: A MEDIEVAL KITCHEN

Here is a short article on the medieval kitchen that I got from my Tudor 
list.  I cann't vouche for it's accuracy.
Phillipa 

<A HREF="http://library.advanced.org/tq-admin/month.cgi">Click here: THE 
MIDDLE AGES: A MEDIEVAL KITCHEN</A> 
http://library.advanced.org/tq-admin/month.cgi


Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 08:18:18 -0500
From: Alex Wollangk <orion at mailbag.com>
Subject: RE: SC -cooling  Creme' Bastarde

Hmmm....

I'm looking at the CADW (Welsh Historic Monuments) booklet on Caernarfon 
and don't see anything that resembles a cooling room such as you 
described...

In fact, the entire excerpt about the kitchens is as follows:

   "To the west (right) of the King's Gate lies the lower ward.  Note the 
foundations of the broad wall which was intended to separate the two wards, 
and of the buildings which formerly occupied the ward, concealing the lower 
parts of the enclosing curtain walls.  As you walk down towards the Eagle 
Tower you will come first, on your right, to the site of the castle 
kitchens, lying between the gatehouse and the Well Tower.  The springer of 
a great arch and bonding for a cross partition, both built as part of the 
curtain wall, show that it was intended to build the whole in stone, but 
the slight foundation walls on the courtyard side suggest that, as built, 
these kitchens may have been relatively flimsy structures.
   To the lift of the range of three rooms are the remains of seatings for 
two copper cauldrons, with fireplaces below them.  Behind them, in the 
thickness of the tower wall, is a cavity which may have been used for 
smoking meat.  At the bottom of the wall on the right-hand side of this 
cavity is a small hole marking the end of a water channel running from a 
tank in the Well Tower, and below it is a drain running off to the left. 
 In the window openings at the back of the range there is the line of a 
second channel, still bearing the remains of its lead piping, running from 
the tower to a stone sink, now much weathered, mounted in a recess in the 
wall about the middle of the range.  In the wall below the great stone 
springer, on the right, is the small opening for a rubbish disposal shaft 
in the wall thickness.  The accomodation at the right-hand end of these 
apartments was of two storeys; a doorway in the curtain wall opens onto a 
stair which served the upper room and the gatehouse."

by Arnold Taylor CBE, DLitt, FBA
(c) Cadw: Welsh Historic Monuments
Brunel House, 2 Fitzalan Road, CARDIFF, CF2 1UY

I have also talked to a friend of mine who has been there and to a number 
of other castles in north wales including Beaumaris, and he doesn't 
remember anything like that.

I also checked the Cadw web site in case something had been discovered 
since Jack was there and thus before the booklet he brought back was 
published (http://www.castlewales.com/home.html) but I couldn't find 
anything there either.

I would be interested to know exactly where you are getting this 
information...

Alex Wollangk
(Bran MacDavid would know nothing of this kind of research...  Though he 
may very well have heard of Caernarfon...)


Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:50:22 CEST
From: "Christina van Tets" <cjvt at hotmail.com>
Subject: SC - period ovens

A couple of weeks ago I was at a krak (crusader castle) which still had the 
kitchen pretty much intact.  Well, roofless, but it was mostly there.  There 
were 3 beehive/igloo ovens all in a row, about 3 feet across, and maybe 
about 2 1/2 feet high, plus there was a fireplace next to them, just a small 
one about 2' square.  They were all built into the same wall, and 
consequently shared one very wide chimney.  There was a large room which 
held the mouths of the ovens, and a small room maybe 8' across which held 
the hive part of the ovens and the open fireplace and, IIRC, some sort of 
bench arrangement.  Leaving aside the bench bit (oh dear, I'll just have to 
go back and check...), why would there be a small, very hot room for the 
open fire?  What might it have been used for?  The other was specifically 
stated to have been the kitchen.

Most of the walls in the krak are about 3 feet thick, and the buildings are 
very cool inside, but I still wouldn't want to be in that tiny room in 
summer.  Winter would be different.  Maybe you could use it as a general 
yeast-culture room in winter (i.e. beer as well as bread).  There are 
fireplaces or smokeholes in almost every social room in each krak we've 
visited.  This place gets cold in winter (well, not like Europe, but it 
snows), but summer is a very different story (we're not even into summer 
yet, and averaging 40 deg C at present).

Cairistiona

P.S.  The castle also boasts a stone bath - huge - you could fit 2 in it 
quite easily.  Those crusaders...

P.P.S.  Also some remains of a smithy.  Not much, apart from a tempering 
bath.


Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 07:23:02 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Par Leijonhufvud <parlei at algonet.se>
Subject: Gutters, mind on (was: SC - Getting over it. (Way...way off topic.))

I was a couple of weeks ago looking at a medieval castle in Suffolk
(Orford, 12th century). Very interesting solution to kitchen sinks.
Basically a shallow stone basin that had a drain in one end that ended
up in a spout on the outside of the walls. Also a main kitchen with the
window placed so you had the light from the left when facing the two
fireplaces.

Of course I didn't bring my camera, why did you ask?

/UlfR
- -- 
Par Leijonhufvud                                      parlei at algonet.se


Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 19:58:07 EST
From: "Gwendolen Lambert" <marillian at hotmail.com>
Subject: SC - Medieval Kitchen

Two weeks ago, I had the wonderful opportunity to attend Crown Tourney in 
the Kingdom of Drachenwald.  It was held in Central Germany, at Ronneburg 
Castle.  Ronneburg Castle was built in the 12th Century, has been restored 
although there is quite a lot of original stonework, carvings, etc. that 
remain.  It is also an inhabited Castle, museum and restaurant (they have to 
make money somehow to keep it running).

To put it mildly, it was incredible!  There is a working medieval kitchen 
(yes, I have pictures in case anyone would like to see) in which the 
bountiful feast was prepared.  I lost count at how many courses were served. 
  What surprised me the most is how small the kitchen area was! However, I 
got dizzy looking up at the chimney which seemed to go on for a quarter mile 
up. I have been in Castles before, and the kitchens were immense.  This one 
however, consisted of a fire pit complete with cauldron, and a small work 
station.  Because of the changing weather conditions, the kitchen oftentimes 
fills up with smoke, which floats above your head like a cloud.

I had the distinct honour of being the only non-Royal sitting at High Table 
and well, I could definitely get used to that! *grin*  Nevertheless, I was 
treated with such graciousness by all, even though I don't wear gold, 
silver, or brass on my head, nor do I have any titles or initials other than 
AoA after my name. (Ok, I admit, I'm a peon compared to many of the esteemed 
members on this list).

I will admit, it was nice not to be working in the kitchen on this event and 
was able to enjoy the beautiful countryside, the grounds and the impressive 
fighting that took place.

Gwendolen


Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 16:47:47 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Need some definitions

The Butler besides running the wine cellars was responsible for the order,
purchase, storage and dispensing of all beverages.  

The Pantler was responsible for ordering, purchasing, storing and dispensing
bread.  The Pantler or a Carver might be responsible for preparing the
loaves for service.

The brewers, vintners, mazers and bakers produced these goods if the estate
could maintain them, and they were responsible for meeting the household
production needs.  Their finished products were turned over to the Butler
and the Pantler for accounting, storage and provision to the hall.  It was
an arrangement to reduce wastage and peculation.

In turn, the accounts of the Butler and the Pantler would be audited and
paid by the Clerk of the Wardrobe.

Bear


Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 09:45:38 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Need some definitions

The Clerk of the Kitchen would have been the accountant for the kitchen
staff and possibly the brewery, winery and bakery, if those functions were
adjuncts of the household.

The Wardrobe is the accounting and inventory office for a household.  The
Clerk of the Kitchen would likely be under the authority of the Clerk of the
Wardrobe.  BTW, Wardrobe is the term commonly used in the English Royal
Household.  Other terms have been used.

Stewards were the managerial staff.  The Steward of the Household would
provide administrative direction for the Wardrobe and the household in
general.  The Steward of the Kitchen provided administrative direction for
the kitchen.  

Pantler, Butler and Dresser were separate offices, usually responsible
directly to the Wardrobe.  

The preparation of food and the accounting for the portions prepared was the
responsibility of the Kitchen.  This was delivered to the Dresser, as were
the bread and wine from the Pantler and the Butler.  The Dresser was then
responsible for preparing and serving the food and accounting for the
expenditure of the prepared portions delivered to him.  The Almoner (often a
household Chaplain) was responsible for seeing that the tables were properly
cleared and that the leftovers were dispensed as charity.  Comparisons
between the accounts of the Kitchen, Butler, Pantler, Dresser and Almoner
were done by the Wardrobe to locate waste and fraud.

Terminology is not consistent, nor is household structure.  Functions are
not clearly delineated in many accounts.  Smaller establishments might
combine offices, larger establishments might separate duties further.  Staff
can further be divided by those who were permanent upon estates and were
part of the household only when the Lord or Lady was in residence and those
who travelled with the household.  Gentlemen and yeomen of an office might
also have different authority and responsibility.

Cooks, brewers, bakers, vintners, etc. while part of the household were
usually contracted professionals who received wages in addition to their
keep.

We haven't even touched on the Marshalsea (stables, horses, grooms, etc.),
which while part of the household often did not eat in the hall (rowdy lot,
those grooms).

While one may wonder at the numbers of people involved in household service,
it is worth remembering that large households were uncommon and that the
most available information covers Royal households which were exceptionally
wealthy and large.  Even so, the accounts for one wealthy widow show her
staff served portions for between 50 and 75 people for most of the year in
question. 

Bear 

> Ok, so here are the jobs I've got for the average MA kitchen.  I have
> seen Clerk of the Kitchen used in the same way Bear used Clerk of the
> Wardrobe, and also in what I would consider the Steward's position. Is
> this just regional/time difference?
> Christianna            
> 
>     Steward - procurer for the kitchen, often kept the books as well
>               as oversaw the payment of the household staff, 
>     Cook - in charge of food preservation, preparation, and supervision of
>               kitchen staff
>     Pantler - was responsible for ordering, purchasing, storing and dispensing
>               bread.  The Pantler or a Carver might be responsible
>               for preparing the loaves for service.
>     Laverer - in charge of handwashing
>     Butler - besides running the wine cellars was responsible for the order,
>               purchase, storage and dispensing of all beverages.
>     Carver - in charge of carving meats and possibly breads


From: "Heleen Greenwald" <heleen at ptdprolog.net>
To: "List, SCA-COOKS" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 08:45:59 -0400
Subject: [Sca-cooks] ELIZABETHAN KITCHEN

At this link:
http://www.myladyswardrobe.com/
is a picture (the one on the right) of an Elizabethan kitchen. It is on 
the manor estate of Kentwell in England where they do a very exacting 
recreation of Elizabethan times for 3 weeks in the summer.

Phillipa


From: "Jeanne" <jeanne at atasteofcreole.com>
To: "Ansteorra Cooks" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 18:51:40 -0400
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Hampton Court including Tudor Kitchen

Thought this might interest some!
   
http://www.silvertyne.com/~smaynard/unsuited/albums/hampton_court/ 
index.htm

Soffya Appollonia Tudja


Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 11:48:00 -0400
From: "Sharon Gordon" <gordonse at one.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Pictures of 1540's era Castle Kitchen in Germany
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

late Middle Ages kitchen in the Rodendorf house at Eltz Castle:

http://www.burg-eltz.de/e_burgf_kueche.html

Info about the castle
http://www.burg-eltz.de/e_information_index.html

Photo tour of other parts of the castle
http://www.burg-eltz.de/e_burgf_index.html

Sharon


Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 07:35:30 -0600
From: Sue Clemenger <mooncat at in-tch.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] "All the King's Cooks"
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

jenne at fiedlerfamily.net wrote:
> So, can we talk about the information? Pretty please? I'm all excited
> about roasts and boiling kettles and food service and so forth...

I haven't seen the book, but I have seen the kitchens, and they are
waaay cool!
I remember seeing one of the boiling kettles--perfectly enormous thing,
which fit into this alcove.  To stir the contents (or to fish something
out, no doubt), one had to actually climb stairs next to the alcove.  My
memory is insisting that the kettle was copper, but I could easily be
wrong--or the kettle could be a later one of some kind.
There was also this interesting area like a modern built-in counter,
except it was a series of mini-stoves, for want of a better phrase.
There were places on top for smaller cooking vessels (like our
saucepans), and underneath, room for charcoal or wood fires.  I think,
though, that that part of the kitchen was 17th c., but I could be wrong.
I know I took some pictures, but they didn't come out very well.  Some
day I definitely gotta go back! <g>
--maire


Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:40:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] "All the King's Cooks"
To: <mooncat at in-tch.com>, Cooks within the SCA
	<sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> I remember seeing one of the boiling kettles--perfectly enormous thing,
> which fit into this alcove.  To stir the contents (or to fish something
> out, no doubt), one had to actually climb stairs next to the alcove.  My
> memory is insisting that the kettle was copper, but I could easily be
> wrong--or the kettle could be a later one of some kind.

Nope, it was copper, according to the book.

> There was also this interesting area like a modern built-in counter,
> except it was a series of mini-stoves, for want of a better phrase.

Charcoal heated chafing dishes.

> There were places on top for smaller cooking vessels (like our
> saucepans), and underneath, room for charcoal or wood fires.  I think,
> though, that that part of the kitchen was 17th c., but I could be 
> wrong.

I believe that Brears says that that part of the Hampton Court kitchen 
Was built in the 17th c. but that there were similar fittings in earlier
kitchens.

-- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net


Date: Mon, 08 Se 2003 13:11:32 -0400
From: Ron Carnegie <r.carnegie at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] "All the King's Cooks"
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Here is the reply I received from Marc Meltonville at Hampton Court,
with the personal stuff removed...

-- The lady who saw the kitchens remembers the boiling house, one of
several, although only two remain. There is a large, (72 gallon) coppr
pot built into a brick surround. Underneath is a small fireplace that
heats the pot. A set of steps take you up to the pot, where the
contents, usually meat being par-boiled for pies, was stirred or removed
using a flesh hook. It could be cleaned by plaing a small boy in it.
(Probably when it was no longer hot!)
The pot is near the pastry department, so probably served that.
They needed pots this big, as the task of the kitchens was to feed 600
twice a day. Most traditional pots are too small.

The other thing she mentioned is the charcoal range. It is indeed a 17th
century addition to that room, although Tudor ranges look the same.
Along the top are six holes with fire bars set into them. Here is placed
lit charcoal and the whole thing used as a stove. he thing that
confuses people are the arches below, they think the fire went in them.
In fact they are alternately for charcoal, or ash. Flues connecting the
pits to the arches allow ash to drop down into them. With the charcoal
bins, you have to shovel i out of and place it in the top. All this
means that you do not have to 'service' the ranges more than once a day,
bringing in fresh charcoal at the start of the day, and removing the old
ash.
I have seen a transition piece similar to this in France, it dtes from
the mid 18th century, has all the elements of the above, but with a
large metal top, covers for the fire holes and tiled back. Half way to
the 19th Century cast iron range. I think we have pictures if anyone is
interested, that or take yourself t the Loire Valley.

Thanks for the enquiry, keep in touch.
See you next time we get a chance to wander over.

   They also gave me the following email address that is specifically for
questions such as this team at historia.org.uk

Cheers,
Ranald de Balinhar,
Ron Carnegie <r.carnegie at verizon.net>


Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 09:57:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Brears on the Boiling House
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

This is the stuff from Peter Brears, _All the Kings Cooks_ on the Boiling
House at Hamptom Coure palace.

"At Hampton Court, a lead, or copper boiler, was installed in the   boiling house in September 1531. It was probably coated with tin inside, like   the boiling vessels listed in the inventory of all equipment in palace's kitchens drawn up for the Commonwealth in 1659, and like the copper pans used in any modern restaurant kitchen. (Without this tinning, the copper is attacked by the acids in the food, dissolving into it, spoiling the taste and eventually causing poisoning.) Early in the morning the lead would be filled with water -- it probably had its own supply on tap   from a cistern full of spring water in the rooms above. Faggots or similar fast-burning timber would then be lit and fed into the long firebox underneath, which had raised firebars to ensure that the fuel burned as fiercely as possible. From here the flames played directly on to the   base of the copper and then were drawn up the flues at the back of it and forwards around the upper parts of both sides, to ensure that they made maximum contact with the huge cauldrom before being carried away up the chimney.

Although Hampton Court's original copper does not survive, the   dimensions of the surrounding masonry and furnance arch show that it must have held around 80 gallons (364 litres), which would have given it the capacity   to boil batches of around two hundred messes-- enough to serve eight   hundred people at a time. On the other hand, given that the household regulations state that its primary purpose was to boil all the beef, it would have been barely large enough to meet the demands placed upon it unless the better-quality beef for the the nobles etc. was boiled in the Lord's side kitchen -- as may have been the case.

> From its position, it looks as thought the boiling house was used as a preparation facility for the pastry and main kitchens too. There would certainly have been time to recieve the raw meats from the larder each night or early morning, parboil some of them between, say, 5 and 7:30   a.m. for transfer to the pastry for pie- and pastry-making, or to the kitchens for roasting, and still boil a batch of 200 two-pound (900g) beef joints ready for dinner at 10 am. Needless to say, the boiling house would have been constantly bustling, the staff busy non-stop with trimming and trussing the joints, putting them into the copper, stoking the fire, baling out the boiled meats into kettles and pans for transfer to the pastry, the other kitchens or the serving hatches. Then, once dinner had been served, they would start all over again so as to be ready for the four o'clock supper. For all this, in addition to their wages, the   boiling house staff recieved the strippings from the brisket joints, the grease produced from the transfer of the meat from the boiler into the kettles
and pans, and the dripping from the roasts in the kitchen.

The major by-product of the boiling house was pottage. As the
ever-informative Andrew Boorde recorded, 'Pottage is not so much used in
al Crystendom as it is used in Englande. Potage is made of the lyquor in
which flesshe is sodden [boiled] in, with puttyng-to chopped herbes and
oatmeal and salt.'"

Later on, Brears says (in reference to the kitchens):

"It is possible that the cooks followed the international peasant   practice of maintaining what Alexandre Dumas called 'the eternal kettle.' The enternal kettle is -- or rather was, since this illustrious gastronomic institution long ceased to function-- a receptacle that never left the fire, day or night. As a chicken was taken out of it another was put in, as a piece of beef was taken out, another would take its place; a glass of water would be added whenever a cup of broth was removed. Every kind of meat that cooked in this boullion gained rather than lost in flavour, for it inherited the juices provided by all the meat that preceded it and in turn bequeathed some of its own. It was not necessary to leave the meat in the kettle any longer than it required to cook, so it lost none of its qualities."

Of his own experience with a variation of this method traditional to
Yorkshire, he says:

"... I was able to put it to the test there by cooking all my food in a cauldron over an open fire for two weeks. In this region, the pot was taken off the fire every evening, so that in the morning when it was cold, all the congealed fat was carefully skimmed off, the pot placed over the fire, fresh water added until it was half full, and all the scum skimmed off immediately it came to the boil. The meat, such as fresh beef or mutton or a trussed chicken, was then put in, each at the appropriate time, so as to be just ready for the required meal, and left to barely simmer. About an hour before they were to be served, the larger whole scrubbed vegetables  were added, their unbroken skins ensuring that they maintained virtually all their original flavour as they cooked. (Alternatively, the smaller vegetables such as peas and beans, and the larger chopped ones, can be put in a little later, having first put them in a thin cloth or a string bag.) Neither salt nor spices were put in, though, because their flavours would accumulate and spoil the stock. When the meal was ready, some of the stock was simply ladled out into a dish as the first course, then the meat and the vegetables withdrawn a little later for the main course. After this the skimmer was used to remove every particle of solid food from the pot, and it was set aside in a cool place until required again, unless needed to prepare the second meal of the day. Since the stock was boiled for two or three hours every day, and contained no cereals or other solid matter at any other time, it always remained perfectly sweet, its flavour improving in richness and quality as the   days passed. This very practical method would certainly have been suitable fr use in the kitchens of Hampton Court."

-- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net


Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 21:01:12 -0500
From: <kingstaste at mindspring.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] FW: Pennsic was Period Cooking Styles and Vessels
	Project
To: "SCA Cooks" <Sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

This is too good not to share!
Thanks Johnna!
Christianna

-----Original Message-----
From: Johnna Holloway [mailto:johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 7:22 PM
To: kingstaste at mindspring.com
Subject: Re: Pennsic was Period Cooking Styles and Vessels Project

I know what might be worth getting would be Caroline Davidson's
stuff on restoring the kitchen at Ham House.
The Ham House Kitchen is the name of the book. no date
but it was the 1980's.
She also did at least 2 articles on that kitchen that appear
in PPC.

It's Jacobean, but the inventory lists might be helpful.

This may mention all the late Elizabethan--

ENGLISH COOKERY TECHNIQUES & EQUIPMENT 1580 - 1660

By Stuart Peachey. Two volumes. Period kitchen equipment inventories.
Cooking methods and equipment, food preparation methods and equipment.
No recipes. 107 pages. Softcover booklets. Import.

Availability: Usually ships the next business day.

Johnnae


Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 19:54:23 -0500
From: "Alexandria Doyle" <garbaholic at gmail.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] kitchen scene 16th century
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Kitchen Scene, 16th century
Oil on Canvas
29 5/16 x 32 1/4 in (74.5 x 82 cm)
Indiana University Art Museum Provenance Project (Link to the project)
http://www.indiana.edu/~iuam/provenance/)
Gift of Morton C. Bradley, 75.117.2
(image)http://www.indiana.edu/~iuam/provenance/images/298.jpg


Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 21:01:09 -0500
From: "Pat Griffin" <ldyannedubosc at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] kitchen scene 16th century
To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Despite the title, I believe this to be an outdoor butchering scene.  Except
for the clothing, it looks very familiar to me, because I've worked in a
nearly identical environment when I used to help butcher on our farm.  In my
experience, the outdoor "kitchen" would be temporary, not the place where
the everyday cooking was done.

The large cauldron on the fire seems to hold the internal organs and blood
for making liver pudding.  Even the knife the butcher is holding looks so
very like the one I used to use.  The lady on our right, with her back to
us, even seems to be sitting in an old cane-bottomed chair quite familiar to
any one who grew up in the rural south.

Lady Anne du Bosc
Known as Mordonna The Cook

-----Original Message-----
Kitchen Scene, 16th century
Oil on Canvas
29 5/16 x 32 1/4 in (74.5 x 82 cm)
Indiana University Art Museum Provenance Project (Link to the project)
http://www.indiana.edu/~iuam/provenance/)
Gift of Morton C. Bradley, 75.117.2
(image)http://www.indiana.edu/~iuam/provenance/images/298.jpg


Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 09:12:57 -0500
From: "Elise Fleming" <alysk at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Vicarous Hampton Court Kitchen Tour
To: "sca-cooks at ansteorra.org" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Blog spot address again is http://tudorcook.blogspot.com.

The current post for the blog spot features a photo of the middle kitchen
room at Hampton Court.  You can left-click your mouse and drag the picture
around to show you what it looks like (sans people). The small table by the
doorway to the bigger hearth room is where all the confections and
subtleties are done. Nice vicarious experience if you can't afford to go
there!

Alys Katharine


Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 08:44:49 -0400
From: "Elise Fleming" <alysk at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Hampton Court Photos Uploaded
To: "sca-cooks at ansteorra.org" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Greetings!  A number of my Hampton Court photos as well as some from  
Ivan Day courses and other activities have been uploaded to http:// 
www.flickr.com/photos/8311418 at N08/ - which I hope is the correct  
URL!  This took the combined efforts of my daughter and son-in-law to  
prod me through the steps to minimize over 300 photos, get to flickr,  
delete the extra photos, etc., etc.  Hope you find them enjoyable!

Alys Katharine

Elise Fleming
alysk at ix.netcom.com
http://home.netcom.com/~alysk/


Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 07:48:47 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Kitchen scene, circa 1600
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I came across a small illustration in an article on kitchens this week.
The forefront shows a kitchen scene while in the background there's
a glimpse of the diners. It shows both women and men working in the
kitchen with numerous serving boys. The engraver is listed as Justus 
Sadeler. The magazine dated the print as 1675. It looked earlier to me, so I have done some checking.
His dates are b. 1583 in Antwerp, d. either 1620 in Venice or 1629 in 
Amsterdam.
(There are a number of engravers named Sadeler so it is possible that it 
was done by another member of the family.)

One rather poor version turns up here:
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/sixwives/times/food.html
*Preparing for a Feast*
Justus Sadeler after Antonio Tempesta c. 1600
Credit: Hulton Archive

When one looks for the original by Antonio Tempesta, one comes across it as
 January: A Kitchen.  Antonio Tempesta  published 1599.
His dates are b Florence, 1555; d Rome, 5 Aug 1630.
Between 1589 and 1627 Tempesta made over 1000 prints, which were widely 
circulated in Europe during his lifetime.
He turns up all over the place. The kitchen scene is in ARTstor for 
those with academic access, but even better it's at LA County.

http://collectionsonline.lacma.org/mwebcgi/mweb.exe?request=record;id=25999;type=101
The entire set is listed here:
http://collectionsonline.lacma.org/mwebcgi/mweb.exe?request=record;id=131334;type=101

Johnnae


Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 08:05:25 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Kitchenware

I was looking at a book that just arrived yesterday and came across  
this artist

DELFF, Cornelis Jacobsz     (b. ca. 1570, Gouda, d. 1643, Delft)

 He painted the kitchen still life with pots and pans. If you ever  
wanted to know what circa 1590-1630 kitchenware looked like, he?s a  
good source.  Here are a few images that I found on the web:

http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/d/delff/cornelis/stillife.html

 or http://www.artsmia.org/viewer/detail.php?v=12&id=62510

 http://www.artnet.com/artist/579222/cornelis-jacobsz-delff.html

http://www.scholarsresource.com/browse/period/357?page=19

A number of his works all bear the title: Still life with kitchen  
utensils.

Johnnae


Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 21:30:06 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Kitchenware

I love molds so I like sites like Ivan Day's website
http://www.historicfood.com/portal.htm
and House on the Hill
http://www.houseonthehill.net/

Other sites with kitchenware images include:

http://www.katjaorlova.com/MedievalKitchenEquipment.htm
or search under Scappi and kitchen for images from his 1570 book.

And there's Hampton Court Palace where the kitchens have been restored.

Master Hroar's pottery should be mentioned:
http://www.twoheartsentwinedpottery.com/

In England take a look at John Hudson's work
http://www.hudsonclaypotter.co.uk/

Johnnae

On Sep 22, 2009, at 9:12 PM, Melissa Long Blevins wrote:
<<< If any of you were going to commission  
utensils, are there images that would be "best" to use in this  
endeavor?  And are your favorites on the web?
  
HLy Elisabeth de Calais >>>


Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 17:16:31 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] A Feast in the Time of Chaucer

Sorry, but the web page contradicts you.  It specifically states, "Kitchens 
were rarely located on the same floor as the sala, because of the smells, 
noise and constant circulation of people. Instead, they were usually in the 
attics, to minimise the risk of chimney fires, or on the ground floor. Many 
servants rarely left the kitchens, and the woman of the house paid frequent 
visits to supervise their work."

As for the dining room in the background, it is a technique Vincenso Campi 
used to tie his primary subject to other activities related to it.  The 
Fruit Seller has an fruit picking in an orchard as a back drop.  Two 
different paintings each usually titled The Fish Seller have backgrounds 
showing freshwater seining.  The Poultry Seller has a more general 
background of a man and woman passing on a country road.  You can not assume 
Campi's background is an accurate portrayal of a direct connection between 
kitchen and dining room.

BTW, Campi's painting would be about 1587 rather than the 1487 in the 
painting's URL.

Bear

----- Original Message ----- 
Not sure about this period but I do know that during the Renaissance in
Italy, kitchens were frequently on the same floor as the dining room,
usually at the top of the house.  That way smoke from the fires, etc could
be more easily vented...and food could be served easily while it was still hot. 
http://www.vam.ac.uk/vastatic/microsites/1487_renaissance/cucina.html

is a web page from an exhibition about homes in Italy during the Renaissance
and you can see both a cross section of a house showing the kitchen on the
top floor and a painting by Vincenzo Campi where you can see the dining room
through a portal on the other side of the kitchen.

Kiri


Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 09:35:07 -0400
From: Elise Fleming <alysk at ix.netcom.com>
To: SCA Subtleties E-List <SCA_Subtleties at yahoogroups.com>, 	sca-cooks
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>,	"mk-cooks at midrealm.org"
	<mk-cooks at midrealm.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Hampton Court Kitchen Photos

Greetings!  Here is a link (http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/terry.love.uk) 
to 15 albums of photos from a London resident (Terry Love) who has 
started visiting Hampton Court on a regular basis.  You should be able 
to easily identify the Hampton Court albums by the titles, except for 
one labeled "Gardens and Pies".

Some albums have captions which you might find helpful.  In order of 
appearance on the main page, the captioned albums are: Social Visit, 
Rainy Day, May Day 2010, Easter Sunday, Long 4-Day Weekend, HC Tudor 
Kitchens-Christmas, and August 2009.

For those of you who don't mind a forum set-up, Cooking the Books blog 
site has a new forum section to which you can subscribe.  (You have to 
go to a forum to find out new posts rather than receive posts via 
e-mail, something that I didn't know until a week ago.)

For subtlety folk, there are only a few photos in Terry Love's albums 
that show subtleties.  There's a sugar paste crown that Dave worked on 
in 2009, a sugar paste ship that you can't see well, and a marzipan or 
sugar paste Tudor rose medallion that is being painted and gilded. 
There are some good photos of the replica wine fountain in Clock Court. 
Dave and Adrian had made a wax wine fountain the year before.

If you find time hanging heavy on your hands, Terry's photos are a good 
way to pass the time!

Alys K., envious that he can visit Hampton Court as much as he wants


Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2010 15:36:36 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Duties of a Cook, 13th Century

While doing the search on the "dish of butter," the Venedotian Code as  
found in the volume on Google Books
I came across a list of duties for the Cooks who served the King and  
the Queen in Wales.

Ancient laws and institutes of Wales; comprising laws supposed to be  
enacted by Howel the Good: and anomalous laws, consisting principally  
of institutions which by the statute of Ruddlan were admitted to  
continue in force. London] Printed by command of His Late Majesty King  
William IV under the direction of the Commissioners on the Public  
Records of the Kingdom, 1841.


page 47 and 49 with the Welsh on 46 and 48 for The King?s Cook

XXI. [OF THE COOK.]
1. The fifteenth is the cook.
2. He is to have his land free; his horse in attendance; his linen  
from the queen, and his woollen from the king.
3. He is to inhabit the kitchen ; and he is to have his necessaries  
from the steward and the land maer.
4. He is to have skins of all the small animals which come to the  
kitchen with their skins on; that is to say, he is to have one third,  
and the steward two thirds.
5. He is to taste each dish that he shall season.
6. He is to have the fragments, and the tallow, and the entrails.
7. He is himself to bring the last dish, and place it before the king;  
and then the king is to present him with meat and drink.
8. His protection is, from the time he shall begin to prepare the  
first dish until he shall place the last before the king, to convey an  
offender away.
9. The steward is to supply him with all herbs to season his dishes;  
such as pepper, and other herbs.
10. He is to eat with the servants.
11. His lodging is with the steward.
12. He is to have one share of the supper silver.
13. "His saraad is six kine, and six score of silver, to be augmented.
14. His worth is six score and six kine, ^to be augmented/

page 59

xxix. Of The Queen's Cook, This Treats.
1. The seventh is her cook.
2. He is to have his land free; his horse in attendance; and his linen  
from the queen, and his woollen from the king.
3. He is to be supplied by the steward with all his necessaries for  
the kitchen.
4. He is to taste each dish that he may prepare.
5. His protection is the same as that of the king's cook.
6. His lodging is with the steward of the king.
7. His saraad is six kine, and six score of silver.
8. His worth is six score and six kine, to to be augmented.'

The Venedotian Code is dated early 13th century.

Johnna

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Edited by Mark S. Harris	p-kitchens-msg	Page 27 of 27