p-fd-coloring-msg - 6/22/08 Period food colorings. NOTE: See also the files: sotelties-msg, candy-msg, illusion-fds-msg, gilded-food-msg, Sgr-a-Cnftns-art, endoring-msg, marzipan-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Date: 17 Sep 1997 11:50:18 -0700 From: "Marisa Herzog" Subject: Re: SC - Julleran's Sugar/C I had also thought of rolling out a sheet of marzipan or something similar and topping it with various fruit "sauces" in a heraldic design. But again, have run into trouble trying to accomadate the various colors. Red is easy, but what would work well to get a good yellow, green, blue, black or purple. Any ideas. you could also do a thin cheese cake or torte for a base. yellow- yellow plums, apricot, lemon purple- grapes, blackberries green- (not period kiwi), lime, gooseberry blue has me stumped - -brid Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 16:17:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Schuldenfrei Subject: Re: SC - Julleran's Sugar/Candy Glass I had always wanted to make a rendition of coats of arms as a subtlety, but have always ran into trouble with coming up with period ways to get the various colors. (ie not food colors) Hmmm. My wife and I (mostly her, she's the one with the Laurel... I just hang out because its fun) have used commercial food coloring paste, as a rule. Why? Because most of the coloring agents used in period were poisonous, or are impossible to get. Given a need, therefore, to use a non-period substitute, you can make a choice: something they could have used but didn't (HISSS) or something they couldn't have used, and didn't. She/we have chosen the later. Mostly because it works, and its easier. (You have to understand that it can take her several months just to mold a soteltie for an event, with the time we have to spare. If we had to make fresh colors, which can spoil, and make them each time we spent an evening on a project, it would move the project from hard to impossible.) what do you mean by food paste? can you add it to the sugar to make colored glass or must it be painted on later. Can you add anything to the sugar or does it cause havoc with the sugar as it cools? Both. Food paste is a highly concentrated form of food safe dye, available in cake baking and decorating stores. You can also purchase a powder form, but I find the paste easier to handle. You can mix it in, or paint it on. (We dissolve it in vodka, which makes a fast drying paint that is also food safe.) I had also thought of rolling out a sheet of marzipan or something similar and topping it with various fruit "sauces" in a heraldic design. But again, have run into trouble trying to accomadate the various colors. Red is easy, but what would work well to get a good yellow, green, blue, black or purple. Any ideas. Yellow? Saffron. Green? That's not too hard: crush damp parsley in a mortar or with a food processor, and the green juice works. (And, its period!) Black would be hard: I'd consider walnuts, purple would be blue berries. Blue? As George Carlin said "There is no blue food". I dunno. Tibor Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 22:40:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Uduido at aol.com Subject: SC - Coloring foods << Red is easy, but what would work well to get a good yellow, green, blue, black or purple. Any ideas. >> Yellow -saffron ( period) Green -parsley (period) Red- Sauders (period) Blue-purple plums (maybe if you toned it down) Black- a mixture of all of the above Purple- Sauders and purple plums Orange- saffron and parsley That's my best guess. Lord Ras Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:54:36 -0500 From: "Jack Hubbard" Subject: SC - Re: Stained Glass Questions > Murkial af Maun asked: > > >2. What flavors would have been period, if any? I usually use > >wintergreen, anise, cinnamon and peppermint oils for my candies. While not seen in hard sugar candies, these flavors I have for Sirrup's: Violets, Gilleflowers, Cowslip, Rose, Damask Roses, Barberries, Mulberries,Rasps (rasberies), Leamons, Poumcitrons, Pippins (that is apples), Purslane, Liquorish, Wood Sorrell, and Hyssope. I suspect that Saunders( red sandlewood) wood work well too. As for coloring agents the rose and sandlewood would make red, liquorish for black?, blackberries for purple.... Yours, Eoian (who thinks he may go home and destroy the kitchen tonight with all these ideas) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 14:03:27 SAST-2 From: "Ian van Tets" Subject: SC - Re: food colouring Hi, since I'm several digests behind, someone has probably already written in before me, but according to [Heck I've forgotten the title] From Taillevent to Escoffier, spinach was fequently used as a green dye, even in sweet things, and mulberries for blue. Cheers, Cairistiona Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:33:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Stephen Bloch Subject: Re: SC - coloring agents Tibor wrote: > Yellow? Saffron. Green? That's not too hard: crush damp parsley in a > mortar or with a food processor, and the green juice works. (And, its > period!) Black would be hard: I'd consider walnuts, purple would be blue > berries. Blue? As George Carlin said "There is no blue food". I dunno. I'll second the saffron for yellow and parsley juice for green; both of those appear often in medieval English cookbooks. I think the most common black I've seen in medieval cookbooks is blood, but you might not want to use that in your marzipan :-) For purple, the word is ALKANET. And for blue, TURNSOLE. I believe both of these last two are dried flowers. I bought a bag of alkanet at Pennsic a few years ago, put the plastic bag (still sealed) into my spice drawer, and a month later the shelf-paper lining the drawer was a permanent purple where the bag had been. As for turnsole, it's not clear what modern Latin name corresponds to it. Is it the same thing as heliotrope (the literal translation from French into Greek), or are they just two different flowers that follow the sun? We bought a bag of very blue dried flowers at a Middle Eastern grocery, suspecting they might be turnsole, but we haven't really experimented with them yet. mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib Stephen Bloch sbloch at panther.adelphi.edu Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:44:22 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: Re: SC - Spices-another source ... > On another thought, I just picked up some ground red sandalwood, and am > dying to try it for coloring ability in food... > > Bogdan Sandalwood does color food, although it isn't strictly a dye in the sense that saffron is. It is more along the lines of sprinkling on, or mixing with, tiny reddish particles. It also is nowhere with saffron as an aromatic or flavoring: sandalwood tastes a bit like chewing a cedar pencil. Adamantius Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 13:22:48 -0400 From: "marilyn traber" Subject: Re: SC - Ingredient substitutions >>But doesn't bottled food coloring do the same thing? Saffron is sure to flavor as well as color when added to a dish. You may approach enough yellow color change with sufficient ground daffodil petals, but will not successfully recreate the dish flavor to much accuracy. My point was that none of the recipes redacted that have saffron say anything about the taste, many only refer to coloring the recipe with various substances like saunders and saffron, alkanet and others mentioned at various times. Mostly when there is reference to flavor, it is to make bitter, sweet, sour or savory-and not referring to saffron, saunders and the like but to use peppers, cinnamon, galengale and the like. I definitely agree that the lesser affluent didn't get into the cookbook game until way late, when there was an interest in flavor substitutions for the more expensive goodies-after all, hopping beers in the European fashion was frowned upon in the Isles until fairly late-bittering was accomplished with various gruitt blends. margali Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 09:57:24 -0400 From: "marilyn traber" Subject: Re: SC - Endoring [was: Selene Intro] soak the saffron in 1 tsp water to extract the color, and put the glaze on late in the cooking process-when i do my chicken normandy i put the egg/saffron glaze on in the last 10 minutes or so. margali Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 14:13:33 -0500 From: "Margo Hablutzel" Subject: SC - RE: Heraldic Gelatine and Converted Jews Using milk to make an opaque white gelatin is common, at least in asian desserts (often using agar, a vegetarian gelatine-like substance). I have at least one period receipt for a milk custard that is of similar texture. So use milk. Black is traditionally done with cooked blood. No kidding. There is a receipt in "To the King's Taste" or "To the Queen's Taste" which speaks of making striped coloured fat, and blood is used for black. If you absolutely must have black, try using a root beer syrup or something like that, if you want it to be periodoidish. For purple, grape juice may work. Note that grape juice may end up looking more like red or black, depending upon the juice and the opacity. Morgan Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 13:43:37 -0600 From: allilyn at juno.com (LYN M PARKINSON) Subject: Re: SC - Heraldic Jell-O >> purple<< experiment with turnsole and grape juice If you get a fairly good purple, try making a semi-liquid of cooked raisins and adding that, in order to get a black. There's a black dye you use for pysanky, but it's not edible. Allison allilyn at juno.com, Barony Marche of the Debatable Lands, Pittsburgh, PA Kingdom of Aethelmearc Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 11:11:43 EST From: LyAngharad at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - purple fleur de lis? Just a thought here. People are suggesting various colored vegetables and other colored things as dye stuffs for foods. Hey guys. Remember that the pH (acidity/alkalinity) of the substance to be colored will do weird things with many colors. If you want an example, notice what happens to perfectly good blueberry juice (nicely blue) when you add tap water (probably alkaline) to it (GREEN!). Test on a small amount before trying a big batch. And bake before deciding whether this is going to 'work' or not! Angharad Barony of Namron (Norman, OK) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:28:59 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - purple fleur de lis? > If you want an example, notice what happens to perfectly good blueberry juice > (nicely blue) when you add tap water (probably alkaline) to it (GREEN!). > Test on a small amount before trying a big batch. And bake before deciding > whether this is going to 'work' or not! > > Bear -- any comments from you on this??? > > Angharad Sorry, Angharad, I don't have any experience in using natural food colorings with doughs and I don't know of any references which cover it. I was planning to experiment with coloring decorations for loaves of bread, but I haven't had the chance. I would think that your comments on the acidity and alkalinity induced problems is probably correct, but you can use de-ionized water for baking. Something like a Britta water filter (which removes metals) will likely be the best bet. This doesn't alter the problem where the other ingredients are concerned, but it does reduce human induce contaminants. I would recommend running experiments simply because you are working with organic dyes and you need to know how they are going to react. Bear Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 17:01:03 -0600 (CST) From: alysk at ix.netcom.com (Elise Fleming) Subject: SC - Sap Green: Was: Recipe from Murrell Greetings. Cindy questioned what was sap green. (I thought I had sent that info in the article we are doing???) Daniel Thompson in his book on (Methods and Materials of Painting???) gives sap green as a pigment made from buckthorn berries. It was used as a food colorant, especially in confections, through at least the early 1800s when it is mentioned as a coloring agent in A Treatise on Adulterations of Food by F. Accum, 1820. I can't locate Thompson's book but Accum says " Now sap-green itself, as prepared from the juice of the buckthorn berries, is no doubt a harmless substance, but the manufacturers of this colour have for many years past produced various tints, some extremely bright, which there can be no doubt are effected by addin preparations of copper." Fascinating treatise - one of the Mallinckrodt reprints for which I joyously relate that I got for a mere $10 per book at a used book store in Minneapolis. I was about to leave the store with other treasures when I spied these on the top shelf. Got all but the Platina reprint. I still chuckle in glee at the thought of only $10 for each book. I've seen them for $100 in used book lists! Alys Katharine... They're mine! All mine! :-) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:37:46 -0500 From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow) Subject: Re: SC - A different egg question >At our most recent cooks guild meeting we dyed eggs using natural dyes. >The colors came out amazingly bright! I will post pictures once I get them >developed. >I know the cabbage and the onion-skin dyed eggs are safe to eat. I am >wondering if the eggs boiled for 20 minutes in water containing crushed >cochneal (did I get the spelling at least close?) are safe to eat? And >where could I find more information on natural dyes - other colors, period >colors... I found 2 relevant web sites, and of those, one lists dyes and >then states some of these (and does not specify which) are not safe to eat >;-(. > >Gwen-Cat >Caerthe Hello! Dame Alys & I are working on an article on the topic of period food coloring agents. All the following are safe to eat, but may flavor the eggs. Alys, if you're there, I know we discussed egg dyes several years ago. This is what I sent you : saffron/white vinegar-yellow; sandalwood/white vinegar-rose pink; yellow onion skin/white vinegar-mahogany brown; and saffron/sandalwood-white vinegar-orange. I tried parsley/white vinegar for green, but the egg stayed white. And what you replied to me (found in a newspaper article): All the coloring agents were boiled in 3 inches of water with 1 tsp. white vinegar for 1 hour. Then the eggs are added & cooked in the dye for 20 minutes. spinach leaves/vinegar - pale green red onion skins/vinegar - pale blue beets/vinegar - pink yellow onion skins/vinegar - yellow or gold paprika/vinegar - rusty brown coffee or walnut shells/vinegar - deep brown frozen blueberries/vinegar - pale gray/blue saffron or turmeric/vinegar - bright yellow red cabbage/vinegar - blue Variation: use 1 tsp. alum instead of white vinegar to set the dye. Cindy Renfrow renfrow at skylands.net Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 14:38:57 -0600 From: Jennifer Carlson Subject: SC - RE: A Different Egg Question Cochineal is used as a food dye, as well as for fabric. It gives pink grapefruit juice its commercially-desired pink tint, and is behind the policy of many a church injunction against red fruit punches at receptions. I've noticed a couple of products in the last few years that have changed to using the word "kermes" instead - guess they realized that lots of folks know what cochineal really is. A dye expert can tell you about the differences between cochineal and kermes (different species of bugs, both of which yield a red pigment). Talana Jcarlson at firstchurchtulsa.org Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:36:01 EST From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - A different egg question mirhaxa at swcp.com writes: << For this list, I have a vague notion the cochineal is New World. ;) Mirhaxa >> This is correct. Cochineal (Dactylopious coccus Costa), is an insect. Carminic Acid is the red coloring agent obtained from the cochineal whose host plant is the cactus. It is a natural product, and is the only red coloring that has no harmful effects on the human body, being therefore increasingly used in foods, drinks and cosmetics, specially because regulations in many countries forbid the use of artificial substitutes, which are considered a health hazard. Ras Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 11:49:54 -0500 From: Stefan li Rous Subject: SC - vermilion/kermes, was Apicius / Kitab al-Tabikh Cindy Renfrow/Sincgiefu asked: > To change this thread completely... There are a few recipes & mentions in > the Baghdad Cookery book of a red food coloring which has been translated > as 'vermilion'. > > In one instance (p. 24), it is being smeared on boiled eggs to make > vermilioned eggs. The halwa recipe (p. 210) is colored with saffron or > vermilion. > > I was wondering if anyone knew whether the original was referring to the > poisonous vermillion/cinnabar (mercuric sulphide -- zanjifrah), or to > kermes (qirmiz/chermez)? C. Anne Wilson in "The Appetite and the Eye" specifically mentions this cookbook and talks of a halwa and a relish recipe. She says vermillion, but I don't know if she is depending upon someone elses translations. She gives a possible reason for using vermillion as well as gold on page 18: "Gold itself, on account of it's longetivity, was regarded by Arab physicians as a medicine which would lengthen the span of human life. Those who could not afford to consume real gold could at least consume its colour in saffron-tinted food, and could thus ingest some tiny part of the life-enhancing quality of gold. Red and white, the other two favorite colours of Arab cookery, were connected with cinnabar, that is, mercury sulphide, and with mercury itself. Cinnabar, which is the red earth known as vermillion, was the starting material for the alchemist, who extracted mercury from cinnabar, and then tried with the help of sulfur to turn it into gold. Red food shared the colour of cinnabar and white food came close to the silver colour of mercury, and both were beneficial to the eater because their colors were those of gold while it was still passing through its uncompleted stages." - -- Lord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas stefan at texas.net Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:18:12 -0500 (CDT) From: alysk at ix.netcom.com Subject: SC - The Color Blue Toby of Isenfir asked about where to get a blue color for food. The material below is an old version of an article that Cindy Renfrow and I are working on. These are the "blue" references that I found in cookery books. Keep in mind that the material has been much updated since this was written but maybe this will help. Alys Katharine Food Coloring Agents - Blue My aim was to find and list each coloring agent for a particular color and to provide at least one documented source for using that color. My sources are primarily English or cookery books translated into English for which I have given the date of the original publication. For some coloring agents I have provided comments based on information in other texts or from other sources. The "chemist" is a professional chemist working for a major US corporation whose name I have temporarily misplaced. I submitted the colors to her to see what comments she might have about toxicity, etc. "Renfrow" is Cindy Renfrow who published _Take A Thousand Eggs or More_. I had correspondence with her regarding some of her comments about coloring agents in her book. 1. Fine azure, ground. See Scully's _The Viandier of Taillevent_ and Murrell's _A Daily Exercise for Ladies and Gentlewomen_(1617). Murrell indicates it is very dangerous and to steep it in vinegar to kill its strength. Chemist warns that it may change color in vinegar. 2. "Blew". See Murrell's _A Daily Exercise for Ladies and Gentlewomen_. It "must bee ground with thinne gum-Arabick water...fit to garnish but perillous to eate." My guess is that both "blew" and the above-mentioned azure are "azurite", a hydrous copper carbonate, rather than the ground stone lapis lazuli. I understand that lapis, by itself, is not toxic unless it is adulterated with azurite. 3. Mulberry extract. See _The Forme of Cury_ (circa 1390). 4. Heliotrope. This would be the French flower, not the modern one according to one SCA cook. I have not found a period reference except by the name "turnsole". See the next entry. 5. Turnsole. See _Du Fait de Cuisine_. It recommends a good deal of turnsole and soak it in milk. _The French Cook_ by Varenne (1653) mentions turnsole grated in water with a little powder of Iris. Turnsole must be used with an alkali to produce blue rather than red. 6. "Blue bottles 'in corne' ". See _A Daily Exercise for Ladies and Gentlewomen_. Renfrow notes, "A cornfower with a blue blossom, esp. 'Campanula' or 'Scilla' species, presumably ground to a powder & mixed with whatever was called for. 7. Indigo stone dissolved in water. This is not from a period reference but from a cookery book of 1909. However, "indigo woad" or "yned wawdeas" is listed under the color green. Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 22:32:01 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: Re: SC - The Color Blue alysk at ix.netcom.com wrote: > 7. Indigo stone dissolved in water. This is not from a period reference but > from a cookery book of 1909. However, "indigo woad" or "yned wawdeas" is > listed under the color green. If I may be so bold as to add a potential eighth: 8. The combination of blackberries and blanched almonds, as in that Cerulean Sauce for Summer, found in the Redon "The Medieval Kitchen". This would be a deep purplish blue. I've seen indigo-colored mawmenny made from ground boiled chicken meat, ground blanched alomonds, red wine, and various other ingredients, so apparently the almonds and the red juicy stuff produce this effect. Adamantius Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 08:40:44 +0000 From: "Terri Millette" Subject: Re: SC - The Color Blue If I may be so bold as to add a potential eighth: 8. The combination of blackberries and blanched almonds, as in that Cerulean Sauce for Summer, found in the Redon "The Medieval Kitchen". This would be a deep purplish blue. I've seen indigo-colored mawmenny made from ground boiled chicken meat, ground blanched alomonds, red wine, and various other ingredients, so apparently the almonds and the red juicy stuff produce this effect. And it's pretty tasty too, the lord who did it for the sauces classes at Pennsic, did a wonderful job, just make sure you use fresh berries, I guess the frozen ones have a color preservitive, and so it will remain purple instead of changing to blue like it's supposed to. Fiona Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:11:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Huette von Ahrens Subject: Re: SC - The Color Blue Here is a blue recipe from Sabrina Welserin: 39 To make a blue pudding Bruise cornflowers and press them with water through a cloth. If you want, blanch almonds in it, whose milk is then blue. Afterwards make a pudding with it. Huette Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 23:56:17 -0500 From: LYN M PARKINSON Subject: Re: SC - Blue foods or period coloring method? Toby, go the garden sites on the web that have information about flowers. Find out which blue flowers are edible--some foxglove is blue and you don't want to mess with it! There are daisy-like flowers (so I'm a little botany impaired!) that are blue. If you can eat regular daisies, you might be able to eat those. A few blue flowers to check...campanula, blue bell, blue violets or violas, bachelor's button, cornflower... Allison allilyn at juno.com, Barony Marche of the Debatable Lands, Pittsburgh, PA Kingdom of Aethelmearc Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 12:19:54 -0400 From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow) Subject: Re: SC - Red color >I am in desperate need of a substance to color water red that will not stain >fabric, but is safe to drink! This is for a Comedia troop, I Genesii. I hope >someone can help me, I need the information as soon as posible. > >Lady Anna oftderTurm Here's a list of the coloring agents Dame Alys & I have come up with so far for our food coloring article. My guess is that most of the fruit juices (the most pleasant things here to drink) will stain. A magic shop might be able to supply you with some color-changing "red wine". The Coloring Agents, by Color: Reds: Alkanet - soluble in fat, stains Barberries Beet root - stains Brazel Bugloss Carrot Cherries Corn Poppy Cowslips Currants Galingale Gum Lac/ Kermes/ Cochineal - stains Mulberry - stains Pomegranate Quince Rose Rosa Paris Sandalwood/ Saunders Turnsole - used as cloth dye Vermilion Yellows: Brazel Egg yolks Marigold Rose Saffron Safflower Sap Green Yellow Smalt White: Egg whites Wheat flour Metallic colors: Gold and Silver leaf Tin leaf (white, red, or green) Greens: Barley Beet greens Betony Elder bark Indian Lake Mallows Mint Orache Parsley Quinces Sap Green Sorrel Spinach Turnsole Wheat blades Woad Wood Sorrel Blues: Azure/ Blew Bluebottles in Corne Borage Elder bark "Indigo Stone..." Turnsole Woad Purples: Elderberries Mulberry Turnsole Violets Brown: Cinnamon Ginger Black: Blood Burnt Bread Cindy Renfrow/Sincgiefu renfrow at skylands.net Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 21:01:48 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy To: Ralph Falkenburg CC: margolh at nortelnetworks.com, mtraber at email.msn.com, sbloch at panther.adelphi.edu, RSVE60 at email.sps.mot.com, stefan at texas.net, marisa_herzog at macmail.ucsc.edu, TerryD at Health.State.OK.US Subject: Re: How to naturally color Mint-Jelly an acceptable shade of green Your friend might find the juice of blanched flat or Italian parsley suitable. He can plunge whole bunches of parsley in boiling water for a few seconds, then take them out and immediately immerse them in ice water. He can then either squeeze the juice out somehow, by, for instance, chopping the parsley finely and wringing it through a kitchen towel or something. I suppose it could be pureed in a blender, but that would probably cloud up the jelly if added directly. Maybe it could be pureed and the liquid poured off the top after it has sat a while. The trick will be to determine how long this stuff can be cooked and remain a nice green; it'll hold up longer than unblanched parsley and certainly longer than mint, but long enough to do the pectin-sugar-acid thing, I don't know. One possibility would be to experiment with cooking the stuff just a bit longer, to a firmer jelly, than would otherwise be done, then it could be loosened up just a bit by adding the bright green liquid. Well, I _hope_ this helps... Adamantius Ralph Falkenburg wrote: >>> I came across a set of e-mails discussing products used historically to accomplish different food colors. From the information in these few mails, it seemed that you collectively possess the sum total of the world's food-coloring knowledge. I have a challenge that needs a solution; My next-door neighbour presently manufactures a very good Pepper Jelly, Marinade and Mustard and would like to introduce a hot Mint Jelly but needs to give it a natural but palatable-looking green coloring. Do you know of any ingredients that may serve to color the Mint-Jelly an acceptable shade of green? I appreciate any help you could provide... Thanks. Ralph Falkenburg <<< From: "Ralph Falkenburg" To: Subject: Re: How to naturally color Mint-Jelly an acceptable shade of green Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 21:17:38 -0500 Stefan: AS a post-script.. I was also thinking that some kelps and seaweeds are used to make ice-cream as protein additives and they must go through hell to get the green out.. As per your question, I did come across the p-fd-coloring-msg/ period food colorings file.. Apparently you're right, the parsley tastes terrible and because a slight acidity is created in the preparation, it tends to burn most green colorings down to a murky brown-green.. Condiments without natural food coloring.. maybe by enclosing a 25 watt green Mint-Jelly-Mood light bulb with each bottle... - Just a thought.. Your flaky-mint-suspension idea is the one I like the best so far; under the Less-is-more category.. Ralph ----- Original Message ----- From: Stefan li Rous To: Ralph Falkenburg Cc: ; ; ; ; ; ; Subject: Re: How to naturally color Mint-Jelly an acceptable shade of green > I would think that green would not be that difficult because of it's > occurance in plants. However, I am only the editor of the files and > not the one who has done the experiments or research. > > While parsley is mentioned as the most used green coloring and for > our group's use, re-enactment of the Middle Ages, it was verifiabley > used for food coloring then. I'm not sure if it would add a disagreeable > taste though to your particular item. Try it and see. > > Another idea would to be use mint leaves. If you are already using > mint leaves in your preperation, I'm surprised you aren't already > getting a green color. I don't know how to concentrate the mint > color from the mint leaves without also contentrating the flavoer, > if the color is not green enough. > > As commercial food colors as designed to be flavor-free you might > have to resort to a combination of both. If your flavor is sufficent > already and the color is the only problem, perhaps you just need > to make it more appealing without making a color change. Perhaps > flakes of mint leaves floating in a pale green jelly would be better > and more natural than a darker green. > > Stefan Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 07:49:32 -0400 From: grizly at mindspring.com Subject: Re: Re: SC - Spicing dishes >I thought from comments made on this list, that red sandlewood didn't >have a taste, just a color? >- -- >Lord Stefan li Rous I have some sanders that has a distinctive flavor. you have to know what you are tasting for, though. It is usually rather bland and old from most purveyors. niccolo Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:07:48 -0500 (CDT) From: "Pixel, Goddess and Queen" To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fwd: Marzipan Cabbage-flavored marzipan? *shudder* Oh, ick. One of the pottages in the Anglo-Norman corpus (I don't remember if it made it into _Curye on Inglysch_ or not) states the color should be indigo. Our dyeing instructor said that when indigo is blue it is inert, but I don't know that you want to be consuming it, either. The question is whether they actually meant real indigo, or were using the word to mean blue generically. If you go with the first interpretation, she could use a dark blue powder color in imitation of indigo. Or, elderberries are a very strong color and a period dye for blue. Margaret FitzWilliam On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Olwen the Odd wrote: > Good day all. I am forwarding part of a message from a friend in Germany. > She has a question. Anyone have any suggestions? Frankly, I can not > imagine the taste of cabbage flavored marzipan. Uck. > > Olwen > > >From: "Martina Furtak" > >I started making Marzipan myself and doing a lot of funny things with it. > >But I have the problem, that I need a period possibility of blue > >food-color. Do you know one? The best I could find was a kind of thick tee > >of blue cabbage, but I'd rather like something better, at least tasting > >ans smelling better ;-). > >I have to do the arms of a Barony in Marzipan to the end of this week :-S > > > >Marcellina Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 10:27:37 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: indigo [was Re: [Sca-cooks] Puritans, was: Canadian Friends] Pixel, Goddess and Queen wrote: > What he said. And I still haven't found any sources that tell me whether > it's safe to use inert indigo (the dyeing process involves oxidation) to > color one's pottage, as mentioned in the Anglo-Norman sources, or if they > just meant indigo-colored, ie, blue. And in that case, what are my options > for blue? I mean, I can very easily saunter over to the tackle box of joy > and find the blue icing color, but that doesn't tell me what my period > counterpart would have used. Tournesole ( a bugloss relative, apparently) can produce an allegedly edible blueish-purple, and it's mentioned fairly often in fourteenth-century English recipe sources. And there's at least one fifteenth-century recipe that calls for a green coloring to be mixing infusions of saffron with "ynde wawdeas", which could conceivably be an indigo reference, or perhaps woad. And then there's the simple expedient of making an almond-milk-based mawmenny with certain types of red wine, which, again, produces a somwhat more purple shade than a blue. It's also possible that the medieval color sense was slightly different from ours, and that some purples were regarded as blue. Adamantius From: "Olwen the Odd" To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Dissolving Saunder Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 14:04:06 +0000 >Greetings. IIRC, Cindy Renfrow showed us how to dissolve the >powdered saunders at the Cooks' Symposium in Colorado Springs. She >took some lard, melted it in a pot, added the powdered saunders and >stirred. It mixed beautifully and was a beautiful red. Try that?? > >Alys Katharine I didn't try that although I have used enough in marzipan to know how well it dissolves in that. I have also noticed that it spreads evenly only after the marzipan is warmed up from working it so apparently the heat factors in the process. Olwen who has that nasty new almond paste that does not take dye well. Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 20:41:10 -0400 From: "Elise Fleming" Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Indigo To: "sca-cooks at ansteorra.org" Stefan saith: > > Indigo and certain other natural dyes Margaret wrote: >OFC: there's at least one pottage in the Anglo/Norman corpus that is >specified to be indigo. As far as I have been able to find out, powdered >unreduced indigo is inert and thus *in theory* could be used as food >coloring. I'm still looking for a definitive answer on that, though. There's a reference in _Curye on Inglysch_, Book V: Goud Kokery, number 15, "To make ymages in suger". Among the coloring agents for the boiled sugar is this which I've put into modern type: And if ye will make it grene, take ynde wawdeas ii penyweyght, ii penyweyte of saffron, the water of the gleyr of ii egges, and stampe all wele togeder and anoynte it wyth all." Presumably the blue mixed with the yellow saffron produced green. It continues saying that if one wants a lighter green, use more saffron. Alys Katharine Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 10:57:17 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Indigo To: alysk at ix.netcom.com, Cooks within the SCA The 'kitchen boys' at Hampton Court were using indigo for coloring the one section of the sugarpaste that they were working on for their Jacobean demo when we were there in April. I do have pictures. They weren't working on a section that required mixing, so I can't speak to the add saffron get green aspects. Johnnae Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:42:16 -0800 From: lilinah@earthlink.net Subject: [Sca-cooks] Mood Indigo To: sca-cooks@ansteorra.org A number of Near and Middle Eastern historical recipes call for food colored with indigo. For example, in the Book of the Description of Familiar Food is a recipe for spiced salt - Milh Mutayyab. Besides including a fairly long list of spices, it can be colored: Red: Sumac juice Yellow: Saffron, or water in which thyme has been steeped. Green: Chard water Blue: water in which a little indigo has been steeped. Also, one dish includes as a garnish pistachios colored blue with indigo. Would a small amount of indigo-colored seasonings or garnishes be safe to eat? Anahita Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 16:57:35 -0600 (CST) From: "Pixel, Goddess and Queen" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Mood Indigo To: Cooks within the SCA > Would a small amount of indigo-colored seasonings or garnishes be safe > to eat? > > Anahita I've tried to find an answer, but haven't gotten a useful one yet. Indigo in its non-reduced form (i.e., blue) is chemically inert, but that doesn't mean that it's not toxic. But it's pretty powerful stuff, and a little goes a long way. That said, I haven't had the nerve to try it yet. ;-) Margaret FitzWilliam Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 21:23:27 -0400 From: Elaine Koogler Subject: Re: Squid ink was Re: [Sca-cooks] Basque Food To: Cooks within the SCA Patrick Levesque wrote: > Er, please enlighten me here ... What does squid ink taste like? Where do > you find it, or under what brand is it marketed? > > And is it actually safe for young children and nursing women (I'm > concerned about mercury levels mostly, and other such drawbacks)? > > Petru I seem to remember eating a dish with squid ink in it when Mistress Christianna tooke me to a meeting of an Atlanta chef's organization...I don't recall what the dish was, but I do remember that it was excellent. I also know that they demonstrated using squid ink as a natural food colorant...there was a display of various items that could be used, and this was one of them. I have no idea where you'd get it, however, nor about how food-safe it is. Kiri Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 21:51:28 -0400 From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" Subject: Re: Squid ink was Re: [Sca-cooks] Basque Food To: Cooks within the SCA On Sep 7, 2005, at 9:03 PM, Patrick Levesque wrote: > Er, please enlighten me here ... What does squid ink taste like? Hmmm. I've never been asked that before, so I have no stock answer. I guess I'd say it's rich and ocean-tasting (in a way things like sea urchin can be), with an occasional slight bitter aftertaste. Mostly it's eaten in with other foods for its color (black in quantity, brown, as in "sepia", in dilute quantities). Like blood, it thickens just a bit when cooked, and can "break" into black specks and a thinner, lighter-colored liquid if overheated. > Where do you find it, or under what brand is it marketed? Again, hmmm. Sometimes you can get a little packet of the processed ink packaged with things like fresh pasta. You might be able to get it in some processed commercial [food-safe] venue, but the most obvious place to get it is from fresh squid. Each squid has a little clearish sac of it behind each eye, under the mantle. Just gently pull the head and tentacles and entrails out from the body sac, and you'll see the little sacs full of black stuff between the eyes and the entrails. The stuff that looks like ink is, in fact, ink. > And is it actually safe for young children and nursing women (I'm > concerned about mercury levels mostly, and other such drawbacks)? I'm not sure about this. I assume it's like most other seafood products, wherein people aren't supposed to eat more than a certain amount in a given month. A little goes a long way, though, so I can't imagine anyone eating very much. Adamantius Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 23:09:27 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway Subject: Re: Squid ink was Re: [Sca-cooks] Basque Food To: Cooks within the SCA [squid ink, for coloring food - Stefan] http://www.markys.com/squidink.htm http://www.caviarmore.com/Category.aspx?CategoryID=1364 Johnnae Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius wrote: >> Where do you find it, or under what brand is it marketed? > > Again, hmmm. Sometimes you can get a little packet of the processed > ink packaged with things like fresh pasta. > Adamantius Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 07:15:09 -0400 From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] crunchy jello and squid ink To: Cooks within the SCA On Sep 9, 2005, at 2:11 AM, Stefan li Rous wrote: > Does the squid ink have a taste to it? How black does this dish > actually get? As I mentioned, squid ink does have a taste. It's sort of ocean- mineral-y, like many seafoods, can be slightly bitter, but rich in a way that is hard to describe. How black anything can get when you add it depends on what you add it to, and how much you add. Without intending to sound Phlippant... so, for example, calamare en su tinta (squid in a sauce of its own ink), which is a frequent Spanish tapas item, and also commonly available in certain markets among the canned fish, is dark, almost chocolate brown, in a nearly or fully black sauce. Seafood rice dishes to which a little ink has been added are darker than they'd otherwise be, but since rice of whitish on its own, and there may be tomatoes or saffron involved as well, you'd have to add a _lot_ of ink to make it black. I'd say calling inky foods black is kind of similar to the medieval references to oranges being golden, calling something (say, white cotignac) white when it's simply a shade or two lighter in color than it'd otherwise be, that sort of thing. Foods with squid ink can get pretty dark, depending on the proportions used, but are rarely what we'd call pitch black. > Can anyone think of any other all black food, either period or > modern? Is the rarity because of it's appearance or the difficulty > of coloring a food black? Well, black puddings, especially when grilled or fried, can get pretty black, although normally their interior is sort of deep, dark, purplish-red, and blood turns up fairly frequently as a "black" coloring agent. I'd say the relative rarity of black foods in the standard medieval food references might be due to the more-or-less festive nature of things like recipe sources and feast menus (with some exceptions, which, being exceptions, are fairly rare). I'd say a black dish, or a table full of them, might be said to be depressing, and perhaps that is the intention anyway, or at least ostensibly so. Adamantius Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 12:39:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Lawrence Bayne Subject: Re: Squid ink was Re: [Sca-cooks] Basque Food To: Cooks within the SCA Squid ink tastes somewhat like a cross between balsamic vinegar and verjuice. Very astringent for some, but also very good. Used for flavoring more than anything else. Lothar Edited by Mark S. Harris p-fd-coloring-msg Page 20 of 20