p-fd-coloring-msg - 6/22/08
Period food colorings.
NOTE: See also the files: sotelties-msg, candy-msg, illusion-fds-msg, gilded-food-msg, Sgr-a-Cnftns-art, endoring-msg, marzipan-msg.
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This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
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Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: 17 Sep 1997 11:50:18 -0700
From: "Marisa Herzog" <marisa_herzog at macmail.ucsc.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - Julleran's Sugar/C
<snip>
I had also thought of rolling out a sheet of marzipan or something similar and
topping it with various fruit "sauces" in a heraldic design. But again, have
run into trouble trying to accomadate the various colors. Red is easy, but
what would work well to get a good yellow, green, blue, black or purple. Any
ideas.
<sniP>
you could also do a thin cheese cake or torte for a base.
yellow- yellow plums, apricot, lemon
purple- grapes, blackberries
green- (not period kiwi), lime, gooseberry
blue has me stumped
- -brid
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 16:17:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy at abel.MATH.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Re: SC - Julleran's Sugar/Candy Glass
I had always wanted to make a rendition of coats of arms as a subtlety,
but have always ran into trouble with coming up with period ways to get
the various colors. (ie not food colors)
Hmmm. My wife and I (mostly her, she's the one with the Laurel... I just
hang out because its fun) have used commercial food coloring paste, as a
rule.
Why? Because most of the coloring agents used in period were poisonous, or
are impossible to get.
Given a need, therefore, to use a non-period substitute, you can make a
choice: something they could have used but didn't (HISSS) or something they
couldn't have used, and didn't. She/we have chosen the later. Mostly
because it works, and its easier. (You have to understand that it can take
her several months just to mold a soteltie for an event, with the time we
have to spare. If we had to make fresh colors, which can spoil, and make
them each time we spent an evening on a project, it would move the project
from hard to impossible.)
what do you mean by food paste? can you add it to the sugar to make
colored glass or must it be painted on later. Can you add anything to
the sugar or does it cause havoc with the sugar as it cools?
Both. Food paste is a highly concentrated form of food safe dye, available
in cake baking and decorating stores. You can also purchase a powder form,
but I find the paste easier to handle. You can mix it in, or paint it on.
(We dissolve it in vodka, which makes a fast drying paint that is also food
safe.)
I had also thought of rolling out a sheet of marzipan or something similar
and topping it with various fruit "sauces" in a heraldic design. But
again, have run into trouble trying to accomadate the various colors. Red
is easy, but what would work well to get a good yellow, green, blue, black
or purple. Any ideas.
Yellow? Saffron. Green? That's not too hard: crush damp parsley in a
mortar or with a food processor, and the green juice works. (And, its
period!) Black would be hard: I'd consider walnuts, purple would be blue
berries. Blue? As George Carlin said "There is no blue food". I dunno.
Tibor
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 22:40:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Uduido at aol.com
Subject: SC - Coloring foods
<< Red is easy, but
what would work well to get a good yellow, green, blue, black or purple.
Any ideas. >>
Yellow -saffron ( period)
Green -parsley (period)
Red- Sauders (period)
Blue-purple plums (maybe if you toned it down)
Black- a mixture of all of the above
Purple- Sauders and purple plums
Orange- saffron and parsley
That's my best guess.
Lord Ras
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:54:36 -0500
From: "Jack Hubbard" <jack at configdotsys.com>
Subject: SC - Re: Stained Glass Questions
> Murkial af Maun asked:
>
> >2. What flavors would have been period, if any? I usually use
> >wintergreen, anise, cinnamon and peppermint oils for my candies.
While not seen in hard sugar candies, these flavors I have for Sirrup's:
Violets, Gilleflowers, Cowslip, Rose, Damask Roses, Barberries,
Mulberries,Rasps (rasberies), Leamons, Poumcitrons, Pippins (that is
apples), Purslane, Liquorish, Wood Sorrell, and Hyssope. I suspect that
Saunders( red sandlewood) wood work well too. As for coloring agents the
rose and sandlewood would make red, liquorish for black?, blackberries for
purple....
Yours,
Eoian (who thinks he may go home and destroy the kitchen tonight with all
these ideas)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 14:03:27 SAST-2
From: "Ian van Tets" <ivantets at botzoo.uct.ac.za>
Subject: SC - Re: food colouring
Hi, since I'm several digests behind, someone has probably already
written in before me, but according to [Heck I've forgotten the
title] From Taillevent to Escoffier, spinach was fequently used as a
green dye, even in sweet things, and mulberries for blue.
Cheers,
Cairistiona
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:33:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Stephen Bloch <sbloch at adl15.adelphi.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - coloring agents
Tibor wrote:
> Yellow? Saffron. Green? That's not too hard: crush damp parsley in a
> mortar or with a food processor, and the green juice works. (And, its
> period!) Black would be hard: I'd consider walnuts, purple would be blue
> berries. Blue? As George Carlin said "There is no blue food". I dunno.
I'll second the saffron for yellow and parsley juice for green; both of
those appear often in medieval English cookbooks. I think the most
common black I've seen in medieval cookbooks is blood, but you might not
want to use that in your marzipan :-) For purple, the word is ALKANET.
And for blue, TURNSOLE. I believe both of these last two are dried
flowers. I bought a bag of alkanet at Pennsic a few years ago, put the
plastic bag (still sealed) into my spice drawer, and a month later the
shelf-paper lining the drawer was a permanent purple where the bag had
been. As for turnsole, it's not clear what modern Latin name
corresponds to it. Is it the same thing as heliotrope (the literal
translation from French into Greek), or are they just two different
flowers that follow the sun? We bought a bag of very blue dried flowers
at a Middle Eastern grocery, suspecting they might be turnsole, but we
haven't really experimented with them yet.
mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib
Stephen Bloch
sbloch at panther.adelphi.edu
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:44:22 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Spices-another source
...
> On another thought, I just picked up some ground red sandalwood, and am
> dying to try it for coloring ability in food...
>
> Bogdan
Sandalwood does color food, although it isn't strictly a dye in the
sense that saffron is. It is more along the lines of sprinkling on, or
mixing with, tiny reddish particles. It also is nowhere with saffron as
an aromatic or flavoring: sandalwood tastes a bit like chewing a cedar
pencil.
Adamantius
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 13:22:48 -0400
From: "marilyn traber" <mtraber at email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Ingredient substitutions
>>But doesn't bottled food coloring do the same thing? Saffron is sure
to flavor as well as color when added to a dish. You may approach
enough yellow color change with sufficient ground daffodil petals, but
will not successfully recreate the dish flavor to much accuracy.
My point was that none of the recipes redacted that have saffron say
anything about the taste, many only refer to coloring the recipe with
various substances like saunders and saffron, alkanet and others mentioned
at various times. Mostly when there is reference to flavor, it is to make
bitter, sweet, sour or savory-and not referring to saffron, saunders and the
like but to use peppers, cinnamon, galengale and the like.
I definitely agree that the lesser affluent didn't get into the cookbook
game until way late, when there was an interest in flavor substitutions for
the more expensive goodies-after all, hopping beers in the European fashion
was frowned upon in the Isles until fairly late-bittering was accomplished
with various gruitt blends.
margali
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 09:57:24 -0400
From: "marilyn traber" <mtraber at email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Endoring [was: Selene Intro]
soak the saffron in 1 tsp water to extract the color, and put the glaze on
late in the cooking process-when i do my chicken normandy i put the
egg/saffron glaze on in the last 10 minutes or so.
margali
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 14:13:33 -0500
From: "Margo Hablutzel" <Margo.Hablutzel.margolh at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: SC - RE: Heraldic Gelatine and Converted Jews
Using milk to make an opaque white gelatin is common, at least in
asian desserts (often using agar, a vegetarian gelatine-like substance). I
have at least one period receipt for a milk custard that is of similar
texture. So use milk.
Black is traditionally done with cooked blood. No kidding. There
is a receipt in "To the King's Taste" or "To the Queen's Taste" which speaks
of making striped coloured fat, and blood is used for black. If you
absolutely must have black, try using a root beer syrup or something like
that, if you want it to be periodoidish.
For purple, grape juice may work. Note that grape juice may end up
looking more like red or black, depending upon the juice and the opacity.
Morgan
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 13:43:37 -0600
From: allilyn at juno.com (LYN M PARKINSON)
Subject: Re: SC - Heraldic Jell-O
>> purple<< experiment with turnsole and grape juice
If you get a fairly good purple, try making a semi-liquid of cooked
raisins and adding that, in order to get a black. There's a black dye
you use for pysanky, but it's not edible.
Allison
allilyn at juno.com, Barony Marche of the Debatable Lands, Pittsburgh, PA
Kingdom of Aethelmearc
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 11:11:43 EST
From: LyAngharad at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - purple fleur de lis?
Just a thought here.
People are suggesting various colored vegetables and other colored things as
dye stuffs for foods. Hey guys. Remember that the pH (acidity/alkalinity)
of the substance to be colored will do weird things with many colors.
If you want an example, notice what happens to perfectly good blueberry juice
(nicely blue) when you add tap water (probably alkaline) to it (GREEN!).
Test on a small amount before trying a big batch. And bake before deciding
whether this is going to 'work' or not!
Angharad
Barony of Namron (Norman, OK)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:28:59 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - purple fleur de lis?
> If you want an example, notice what happens to perfectly good blueberry juice
> (nicely blue) when you add tap water (probably alkaline) to it (GREEN!).
> Test on a small amount before trying a big batch. And bake before deciding
> whether this is going to 'work' or not!
>
> Bear -- any comments from you on this???
>
> Angharad
Sorry, Angharad, I don't have any experience in using natural food colorings
with doughs and I don't know of any references which cover it. I was
planning to experiment with coloring decorations for loaves of bread, but I
haven't had the chance.
I would think that your comments on the acidity and alkalinity induced
problems is probably correct, but you can use de-ionized water for baking.
Something like a Britta water filter (which removes metals) will likely be
the best bet. This doesn't alter the problem where the other ingredients
are concerned, but it does reduce human induce contaminants.
I would recommend running experiments simply because you are working with
organic dyes and you need to know how they are going to react.
Bear
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 17:01:03 -0600 (CST)
From: alysk at ix.netcom.com (Elise Fleming)
Subject: SC - Sap Green: Was: Recipe from Murrell
Greetings. Cindy questioned what was sap green. (I thought I had sent
that info in the article we are doing???) Daniel Thompson in his book
on (Methods and Materials of Painting???) gives sap green as a pigment
made from buckthorn berries. It was used as a food colorant,
especially in confections, through at least the early 1800s when it is
mentioned as a coloring agent in A Treatise on Adulterations of Food by
F. Accum, 1820. I can't locate Thompson's book but Accum says " Now
sap-green itself, as prepared from the juice of the buckthorn berries,
is no doubt a harmless substance, but the manufacturers of this colour
have for many years past produced various tints, some extremely bright,
which there can be no doubt are effected by addin preparations of
copper."
Fascinating treatise - one of the Mallinckrodt reprints for which I
joyously relate that I got for a mere $10 per book at a used book store
in Minneapolis. I was about to leave the store with other treasures
when I spied these on the top shelf. Got all but the Platina reprint.
I still chuckle in glee at the thought of only $10 for each book. I've
seen them for $100 in used book lists!
Alys Katharine... They're mine! All mine! :-)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:37:46 -0500
From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow)
Subject: Re: SC - A different egg question
>At our most recent cooks guild meeting we dyed eggs using natural dyes.
>The colors came out amazingly bright! I will post pictures once I get them
>developed.
>I know the cabbage and the onion-skin dyed eggs are safe to eat. I am
>wondering if the eggs boiled for 20 minutes in water containing crushed
>cochneal (did I get the spelling at least close?) are safe to eat? And
>where could I find more information on natural dyes - other colors, period
>colors... I found 2 relevant web sites, and of those, one lists dyes and
>then states some of these (and does not specify which) are not safe to eat
>;-(.
>
>Gwen-Cat
>Caerthe
Hello! Dame Alys & I are working on an article on the topic of period food
coloring agents. All the following are safe to eat, but may flavor the eggs.
Alys, if you're there, I know we discussed egg dyes several years ago.
This is what I sent you :
saffron/white vinegar-yellow;
sandalwood/white vinegar-rose pink;
yellow onion skin/white vinegar-mahogany brown;
and saffron/sandalwood-white vinegar-orange.
I tried parsley/white vinegar for green, but the egg stayed white.
And what you replied to me (found in a newspaper article): All the coloring
agents were boiled in 3 inches of water with 1 tsp. white vinegar for 1
hour. Then the eggs are added & cooked in the dye for 20 minutes.
spinach leaves/vinegar - pale green
red onion skins/vinegar - pale blue
beets/vinegar - pink
yellow onion skins/vinegar - yellow or gold
paprika/vinegar - rusty brown
coffee or walnut shells/vinegar - deep brown
frozen blueberries/vinegar - pale gray/blue
saffron or turmeric/vinegar - bright yellow
red cabbage/vinegar - blue
Variation: use 1 tsp. alum instead of white vinegar to set the dye.
Cindy Renfrow
renfrow at skylands.net
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 14:38:57 -0600
From: Jennifer Carlson <JCarlson at firstchurchtulsa.org>
Subject: SC - RE: A Different Egg Question
Cochineal is used as a food dye, as well as for fabric. It gives pink
grapefruit juice its commercially-desired pink tint, and is behind the
policy of many a church injunction against red fruit punches at receptions.
I've noticed a couple of products in the last few years that have changed
to using the word "kermes" instead - guess they realized that lots of folks
know what cochineal really is. A dye expert can tell you about the
differences between cochineal and kermes (different species of bugs, both
of which yield a red pigment).
Talana
Jcarlson at firstchurchtulsa.org
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:36:01 EST
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - A different egg question
mirhaxa at swcp.com writes:
<< For this list, I have a vague notion the cochineal is New World. ;)
Mirhaxa >>
This is correct. Cochineal (Dactylopious coccus Costa), is an insect.
Carminic Acid is the red coloring agent obtained from the cochineal whose host
plant is the cactus. It is a natural product, and is the only red coloring
that has no harmful effects on the human body, being therefore increasingly
used in foods, drinks and cosmetics, specially because regulations in many
countries forbid the use of artificial substitutes, which are considered a
health hazard.
Ras
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 11:49:54 -0500
From: Stefan li Rous <stefan at texas.net>
Subject: SC - vermilion/kermes, was Apicius / Kitab al-Tabikh
Cindy Renfrow/Sincgiefu asked:
> To change this thread completely... There are a few recipes & mentions in
> the Baghdad Cookery book of a red food coloring which has been translated
> as 'vermilion'.
>
> In one instance (p. 24), it is being smeared on boiled eggs to make
> vermilioned eggs. The halwa recipe (p. 210) is colored with saffron or
> vermilion.
>
> I was wondering if anyone knew whether the original was referring to the
> poisonous vermillion/cinnabar (mercuric sulphide -- zanjifrah), or to
> kermes (qirmiz/chermez)?
C. Anne Wilson in "The Appetite and the Eye" specifically mentions this
cookbook and talks of a halwa and a relish recipe. She says vermillion,
but I don't know if she is depending upon someone elses translations.
She gives a possible reason for using vermillion as well as gold on
page 18:
"Gold itself, on account of it's longetivity, was regarded by Arab
physicians as a medicine which would lengthen the span of human life.
Those who could not afford to consume real gold could at least consume
its colour in saffron-tinted food, and could thus ingest some tiny part
of the life-enhancing quality of gold. Red and white, the other two
favorite colours of Arab cookery, were connected with cinnabar, that is,
mercury sulphide, and with mercury itself. Cinnabar, which is the red
earth known as vermillion, was the starting material for the alchemist,
who extracted mercury from cinnabar, and then tried with the help of
sulfur to turn it into gold. Red food shared the colour of cinnabar
and white food came close to the silver colour of mercury, and both
were beneficial to the eater because their colors were those of gold
while it was still passing through its uncompleted stages."
- --
Lord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas stefan at texas.net
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:18:12 -0500 (CDT)
From: alysk at ix.netcom.com
Subject: SC - The Color Blue
Toby of Isenfir asked about where to get a blue color for food. The material below is an old version of an article that Cindy Renfrow and I are working on. These are the "blue" references that I found in cookery books. Keep in mind that the material has been much updated since this was written but maybe this will help. Alys Katharine
Food Coloring Agents - Blue
My aim was to find and list each coloring agent for a particular color and to provide at least one documented source for using that color. My sources are primarily English or cookery books translated into English for which I have given the date of the original publication. For some coloring agents I have provided comments based on information in other texts or from other sources. The "chemist" is a professional chemist working for a major US corporation whose name I have temporarily misplaced. I submitted the colors to her to see what comments she might have about toxicity, etc. "Renfrow" is Cindy Renfrow who published _Take A Thousand Eggs or More_. I had correspondence with her regarding some of her comments about coloring agents in her book.
1. Fine azure, ground. See Scully's _The Viandier of Taillevent_ and Murrell's _A Daily Exercise for Ladies and Gentlewomen_(1617). Murrell indicates it is very dangerous and to steep it in vinegar to kill its strength. Chemist warns that it may change color in vinegar.
2. "Blew". See Murrell's _A Daily Exercise for Ladies and Gentlewomen_. It "must bee ground with thinne gum-Arabick water...fit to garnish but perillous to eate." My guess is that both "blew" and the above-mentioned azure are "azurite", a hydrous copper carbonate, rather than the ground stone lapis lazuli. I understand that lapis, by itself, is not toxic unless it is
adulterated with azurite.
3. Mulberry extract. See _The Forme of Cury_ (circa 1390).
4. Heliotrope. This would be the French flower, not the modern one according to one SCA cook. I have not found a period reference except by the name "turnsole". See the next entry.
5. Turnsole. See _Du Fait de Cuisine_. It recommends a good deal of turnsole and soak it in milk. _The French Cook_ by Varenne (1653) mentions turnsole grated in water with a little powder of Iris. Turnsole must be used with an alkali to produce blue rather than red.
6. "Blue bottles 'in corne' ". See _A Daily Exercise for Ladies and Gentlewomen_. Renfrow notes, "A cornfower with a blue blossom, esp. 'Campanula' or 'Scilla' species, presumably ground to a powder & mixed with whatever was called for.
7. Indigo stone dissolved in water. This is not from a period reference but
from a cookery book of 1909. However, "indigo woad" or "yned wawdeas" is
listed under the color green.
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 22:32:01 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - The Color Blue
alysk at ix.netcom.com wrote:
> 7. Indigo stone dissolved in water. This is not from a period reference but
> from a cookery book of 1909. However, "indigo woad" or "yned wawdeas" is
> listed under the color green.
If I may be so bold as to add a potential eighth:
8. The combination of blackberries and blanched almonds, as in that
Cerulean Sauce for Summer, found in the Redon "The Medieval Kitchen".
This would be a deep purplish blue. I've seen indigo-colored mawmenny
made from ground boiled chicken meat, ground blanched alomonds, red
wine, and various other ingredients, so apparently the almonds and the
red juicy stuff produce this effect.
Adamantius
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 08:40:44 +0000
From: "Terri Millette" <wayspiff at ici.net>
Subject: Re: SC - The Color Blue
If I may be so bold as to add a potential eighth:
8. The combination of blackberries and blanched almonds, as in that
Cerulean Sauce for Summer, found in the Redon "The Medieval Kitchen".
This would be a deep purplish blue. I've seen indigo-colored mawmenny
made from ground boiled chicken meat, ground blanched alomonds, red
wine, and various other ingredients, so apparently the almonds and the
red juicy stuff produce this effect.
And it's pretty tasty too, the lord who did it for the sauces classes
at Pennsic, did a wonderful job, just make sure you use fresh
berries, I guess the frozen ones have a color preservitive, and so it
will remain purple instead of changing to blue like it's supposed to.
Fiona
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:11:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: SC - The Color Blue
Here is a blue recipe from Sabrina Welserin:
39 To make a blue pudding
Bruise cornflowers and press them with water through a
cloth. If you want, blanch almonds in it, whose
milk is then blue. Afterwards make a pudding with it.
Huette
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 23:56:17 -0500
From: LYN M PARKINSON <allilyn at juno.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Blue foods or period coloring method?
Toby, go the garden sites on the web that have information about flowers.
Find out which blue flowers are edible--some foxglove is blue and you
don't want to mess with it! There are daisy-like flowers (so I'm a
little botany impaired!) that are blue. If you can eat regular daisies,
you might be able to eat those. A few blue flowers to check...campanula,
blue bell, blue violets or violas, bachelor's button, cornflower...
Allison
allilyn at juno.com, Barony Marche of the Debatable Lands, Pittsburgh, PA
Kingdom of Aethelmearc
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 12:19:54 -0400
From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow)
Subject: Re: SC - Red color
>I am in desperate need of a substance to color water red that will not stain
>fabric, but is safe to drink! This is for a Comedia troop, I Genesii. I hope
>someone can help me, I need the information as soon as posible.
>
>Lady Anna oftderTurm
Here's a list of the coloring agents Dame Alys & I have come up with so far
for our food coloring article. My guess is that most of the fruit juices
(the most pleasant things here to drink) will stain. A magic shop might be
able to supply you with some color-changing "red wine".
The Coloring Agents, by Color:
Reds:
Alkanet - soluble in fat, stains
Barberries
Beet root - stains
Brazel
Bugloss
Carrot
Cherries
Corn Poppy
Cowslips
Currants
Galingale
Gum Lac/ Kermes/ Cochineal - stains
Mulberry - stains
Pomegranate
Quince
Rose
Rosa Paris
Sandalwood/ Saunders
Turnsole - used as cloth dye
Vermilion
Yellows:
Brazel
Egg yolks
Marigold
Rose
Saffron
Safflower
Sap Green
Yellow Smalt
White:
Egg whites
Wheat flour
Metallic colors:
Gold and Silver leaf
Tin leaf (white, red, or green)
Greens:
Barley
Beet greens
Betony
Elder bark
Indian Lake
Mallows
Mint
Orache
Parsley
Quinces
Sap Green
Sorrel
Spinach
Turnsole
Wheat blades
Woad
Wood Sorrel
Blues:
Azure/ Blew
Bluebottles in Corne
Borage
Elder bark
"Indigo Stone..."
Turnsole
Woad
Purples:
Elderberries
Mulberry
Turnsole
Violets
Brown:
Cinnamon
Ginger
Black:
Blood
Burnt Bread
Cindy Renfrow/Sincgiefu
renfrow at skylands.net
Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 21:01:48 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
To: Ralph Falkenburg <rfalken1 at mindspring.com>
CC: margolh at nortelnetworks.com, mtraber at email.msn.com,
sbloch at panther.adelphi.edu, RSVE60 at email.sps.mot.com, stefan at texas.net,
marisa_herzog at macmail.ucsc.edu, TerryD at Health.State.OK.US
Subject: Re: How to naturally color Mint-Jelly an acceptable shade of green
Your friend might find the juice of blanched flat or Italian parsley
suitable. He can plunge whole bunches of parsley in boiling water for a
few seconds, then take them out and immediately immerse them in ice
water. He can then either squeeze the juice out somehow, by, for
instance, chopping the parsley finely and wringing it through a kitchen
towel or something. I suppose it could be pureed in a blender, but that
would probably cloud up the jelly if added directly. Maybe it could be
pureed and the liquid poured off the top after it has sat a while.
The trick will be to determine how long this stuff can be cooked and
remain a nice green; it'll hold up longer than unblanched parsley and
certainly longer than mint, but long enough to do the pectin-sugar-acid
thing, I don't know. One possibility would be to experiment with cooking
the stuff just a bit longer, to a firmer jelly, than would otherwise be
done, then it could be loosened up just a bit by adding the bright green liquid.
Well, I _hope_ this helps...
Adamantius
Ralph Falkenburg wrote:
>>>
I came across a set of e-mails discussing products used historically to
accomplish different food colors. From the information in these few
mails, it seemed that you collectively possess the sum total of the
world's food-coloring knowledge.
I have a challenge that needs a solution; My next-door neighbour
presently manufactures a very good Pepper Jelly, Marinade and Mustard
and would like to introduce a hot Mint Jelly but needs to give it a
natural but palatable-looking green coloring.
Do you know of any ingredients that may serve to color the Mint-Jelly an
acceptable shade of green?
I appreciate any help you could provide...
Thanks.
Ralph Falkenburg
<<<
From: "Ralph Falkenburg" <rfalken1 at mindspring.com>
To: <stefan at texas.net>
Subject: Re: How to naturally color Mint-Jelly an acceptable shade of green
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 21:17:38 -0500
Stefan:
AS a post-script.. I was also thinking that some kelps and seaweeds are used
to make ice-cream as protein additives and they must go through hell to get
the green out.. As per your question, I did come across the
p-fd-coloring-msg/ period food colorings file..
Apparently you're right, the parsley tastes terrible and because a slight
acidity is created in the preparation, it tends to burn most green colorings
down to a murky brown-green..
Condiments without natural food coloring.. maybe by enclosing a 25 watt
green Mint-Jelly-Mood light bulb with each bottle...
- Just a thought..
Your flaky-mint-suspension idea is the one I like the best so far; under the
Less-is-more category..
Ralph
----- Original Message -----
From: Stefan li Rous <stefan at texas.net>
To: Ralph Falkenburg <rfalken1 at mindspring.com>
Cc: <margolh at nortelnetworks.com>; <mtraber at email.msn.com>; <troy at asan.com>;
<sbloch at panther.adelphi.edu>; <RSVE60 at email.sps.mot.com>;
<marisa_herzog at macmail.ucsc.edu>; <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: Re: How to naturally color Mint-Jelly an acceptable shade of green
<snip>
> I would think that green would not be that difficult because of it's
> occurance in plants. However, I am only the editor of the files and
> not the one who has done the experiments or research.
>
> While parsley is mentioned as the most used green coloring and for
> our group's use, re-enactment of the Middle Ages, it was verifiabley
> used for food coloring then. I'm not sure if it would add a disagreeable
> taste though to your particular item. Try it and see.
>
> Another idea would to be use mint leaves. If you are already using
> mint leaves in your preperation, I'm surprised you aren't already
> getting a green color. I don't know how to concentrate the mint
> color from the mint leaves without also contentrating the flavoer,
> if the color is not green enough.
>
> As commercial food colors as designed to be flavor-free you might
> have to resort to a combination of both. If your flavor is sufficent
> already and the color is the only problem, perhaps you just need
> to make it more appealing without making a color change. Perhaps
> flakes of mint leaves floating in a pale green jelly would be better
> and more natural than a darker green.
>
> Stefan
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 07:49:32 -0400
From: grizly at mindspring.com
Subject: Re: Re: SC - Spicing dishes
>I thought from comments made on this list, that red sandlewood didn't
>have a taste, just a color?
>- --
>Lord Stefan li Rous
I have some sanders that has a distinctive flavor. you have to know what you are tasting for, though. It is usually rather bland and old from most purveyors.
niccolo
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:07:48 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Pixel, Goddess and Queen" <pixel at hundred-acre-wood.com>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fwd: Marzipan
Cabbage-flavored marzipan? *shudder* Oh, ick.
One of the pottages in the Anglo-Norman corpus (I don't remember if
it made it into _Curye on Inglysch_ or not) states the color should be
indigo. Our dyeing instructor said that when indigo is blue it is inert,
but I don't know that you want to be consuming it, either. The question is
whether they actually meant real indigo, or were using the word to mean
blue generically. If you go with the first interpretation, she could use a
dark blue powder color in imitation of indigo.
Or, elderberries are a very strong color and a period dye for blue.
Margaret FitzWilliam
On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Olwen the Odd wrote:
> Good day all. I am forwarding part of a message from a friend in Germany.
> She has a question. Anyone have any suggestions? Frankly, I can not
> imagine the taste of cabbage flavored marzipan. Uck.
>
> Olwen
>
> >From: "Martina Furtak" <Tina_Marcellina at web.de>
> >I started making Marzipan myself and doing a lot of funny things with it.
> >But I have the problem, that I need a period possibility of blue
> >food-color. Do you know one? The best I could find was a kind of thick
tee
> >of blue cabbage, but I'd rather like something better, at least tasting
> >ans smelling better ;-).
> >I have to do the arms of a Barony in Marzipan to the end of this week :-S
> >
> >Marcellina
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 10:27:37 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: indigo [was Re: [Sca-cooks] Puritans, was: Canadian Friends]
Pixel, Goddess and Queen wrote:
> What he said. And I still haven't found any sources that tell me whether
> it's safe to use inert indigo (the dyeing process involves oxidation) to
> color one's pottage, as mentioned in the Anglo-Norman sources, or if they
> just meant indigo-colored, ie, blue. And in that case, what are my options
> for blue? I mean, I can very easily saunter over to the tackle box of joy
> and find the blue icing color, but that doesn't tell me what my period
> counterpart would have used.
Tournesole ( a bugloss relative, apparently) can produce an allegedly
edible blueish-purple, and it's mentioned fairly often in
fourteenth-century English recipe sources. And there's at least one
fifteenth-century recipe that calls for a green coloring to be mixing
infusions of saffron with "ynde wawdeas", which could conceivably be an
indigo reference, or perhaps woad. And then there's the simple expedient
of making an almond-milk-based mawmenny with certain types of red wine,
which, again, produces a somwhat more purple shade than a blue. It's
also possible that the medieval color sense was slightly different from
ours, and that some purples were regarded as blue.
Adamantius
From: "Olwen the Odd" <olwentheodd at hotmail.com>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Dissolving Saunder
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 14:04:06 +0000
>Greetings. IIRC, Cindy Renfrow showed us how to dissolve the
>powdered saunders at the Cooks' Symposium in Colorado Springs. She
>took some lard, melted it in a pot, added the powdered saunders and
>stirred. It mixed beautifully and was a beautiful red. Try that??
>
>Alys Katharine
I didn't try that although I have used enough in marzipan to know how well
it dissolves in that. I have also noticed that it spreads evenly only after
the marzipan is warmed up from working it so apparently the heat factors in
the process.
Olwen who has that nasty new almond paste that does not take dye well.
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 20:41:10 -0400
From: "Elise Fleming" <alysk at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Indigo
To: "sca-cooks at ansteorra.org" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Stefan saith:
> > Indigo and certain other natural dyes
Margaret wrote:
>OFC: there's at least one pottage in the Anglo/Norman corpus that is
>specified to be indigo. As far as I have been able to find out, powdered
>unreduced indigo is inert and thus *in theory* could be used as food
>coloring. I'm still looking for a definitive answer on that, though.
There's a reference in _Curye on Inglysch_, Book V: Goud Kokery, number 15,
"To make ymages in suger". Among the coloring agents for the boiled sugar
is this which I've put into modern type: And if ye will make it grene,
take ynde wawdeas ii penyweyght, ii penyweyte of saffron, the water of the
gleyr of ii egges, and stampe all wele togeder and anoynte it wyth all."
Presumably the blue mixed with the yellow saffron produced green. It
continues saying that if one wants a lighter green, use more saffron.
Alys Katharine
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 10:57:17 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Indigo
To: alysk at ix.netcom.com, Cooks within the SCA
<sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
The 'kitchen boys' at Hampton Court were using indigo for coloring
the one section of the sugarpaste that they were working on for their
Jacobean demo when we were there in April. I do have pictures.
They weren't working on a section that required mixing, so I can't speak
to the add saffron get green aspects.
Johnnae
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:42:16 -0800
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Mood Indigo
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
A number of Near and Middle Eastern historical recipes call for food
colored with indigo.
For example, in the Book of the Description of Familiar Food is a
recipe for spiced salt - Milh Mutayyab. Besides including a fairly
long list of spices, it can be colored:
Red: Sumac juice
Yellow: Saffron, or water in which thyme has been steeped.
Green: Chard water
Blue: water in which a little indigo has been steeped.
Also, one dish includes as a garnish pistachios colored blue with
indigo.
Would a small amount of indigo-colored seasonings or garnishes be safe
to eat?
Anahita
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 16:57:35 -0600 (CST)
From: "Pixel, Goddess and Queen" <pixel at hundred-acre-wood.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Mood Indigo
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> Would a small amount of indigo-colored seasonings or garnishes be safe
> to eat?
>
> Anahita
I've tried to find an answer, but haven't gotten a useful one yet. Indigo
in its non-reduced form (i.e., blue) is chemically inert, but that doesn't
mean that it's not toxic. But it's pretty powerful stuff, and a little
goes a long way. That said, I haven't had the nerve to try it yet. ;-)
Margaret FitzWilliam
Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 21:23:27 -0400
From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1 at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Squid ink was Re: [Sca-cooks] Basque Food
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Patrick Levesque wrote:
> Er, please enlighten me here ... What does squid ink taste like? Where do
> you find it, or under what brand is it marketed?
>
> And is it actually safe for young children and nursing women (I'm
> concerned about mercury levels mostly, and other such drawbacks)?
>
> Petru
I seem to remember eating a dish with squid ink in it when Mistress
Christianna tooke me to a meeting of an Atlanta chef's organization...I
don't recall what the dish was, but I do remember that it was
excellent. I also know that they demonstrated using squid ink as a
natural food colorant...there was a display of various items that could
be used, and this was one of them. I have no idea where you'd get it,
however, nor about how food-safe it is.
Kiri
Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 21:51:28 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Squid ink was Re: [Sca-cooks] Basque Food
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
On Sep 7, 2005, at 9:03 PM, Patrick Levesque wrote:
> Er, please enlighten me here ... What does squid ink taste like?
Hmmm. I've never been asked that before, so I have no stock answer. I
guess I'd say it's rich and ocean-tasting (in a way things like sea
urchin can be), with an occasional slight bitter aftertaste. Mostly
it's eaten in with other foods for its color (black in quantity,
brown, as in "sepia", in dilute quantities). Like blood, it thickens
just a bit when cooked, and can "break" into black specks and a
thinner, lighter-colored liquid if overheated.
> Where do you find it, or under what brand is it marketed?
Again, hmmm. Sometimes you can get a little packet of the processed
ink packaged with things like fresh pasta. You might be able to get
it in some processed commercial [food-safe] venue, but the most
obvious place to get it is from fresh squid. Each squid has a little
clearish sac of it behind each eye, under the mantle. Just gently
pull the head and tentacles and entrails out from the body sac, and
you'll see the little sacs full of black stuff between the eyes and
the entrails. The stuff that looks like ink is, in fact, ink.
> And is it actually safe for young children and nursing women (I'm
> concerned about mercury levels mostly, and other such drawbacks)?
I'm not sure about this. I assume it's like most other seafood
products, wherein people aren't supposed to eat more than a certain
amount in a given month. A little goes a long way, though, so I can't
imagine anyone eating very much.
Adamantius
Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 23:09:27 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Squid ink was Re: [Sca-cooks] Basque Food
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
[squid ink, for coloring food – Stefan]
http://www.markys.com/squidink.htm
http://www.caviarmore.com/Category.aspx?CategoryID=1364
Johnnae
Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius wrote:
>> Where do you find it, or under what brand is it marketed?
>
> Again, hmmm. Sometimes you can get a little packet of the processed
> ink packaged with things like fresh pasta.
> Adamantius
Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 07:15:09 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] crunchy jello and squid ink
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
On Sep 9, 2005, at 2:11 AM, Stefan li Rous wrote:
> Does the squid ink have a taste to it? How black does this dish
> actually get?
As I mentioned, squid ink does have a taste. It's sort of ocean-
mineral-y, like many seafoods, can be slightly bitter, but rich in a
way that is hard to describe. How black anything can get when you add
it depends on what you add it to, and how much you add. Without
intending to sound Phlippant... so, for example, calamare en su tinta
(squid in a sauce of its own ink), which is a frequent Spanish tapas
item, and also commonly available in certain markets among the canned
fish, is dark, almost chocolate brown, in a nearly or fully black
sauce. Seafood rice dishes to which a little ink has been added are
darker than they'd otherwise be, but since rice of whitish on its
own, and there may be tomatoes or saffron involved as well, you'd
have to add a _lot_ of ink to make it black.
I'd say calling inky foods black is kind of similar to the medieval
references to oranges being golden, calling something (say, white
cotignac) white when it's simply a shade or two lighter in color than
it'd otherwise be, that sort of thing. Foods with squid ink can get
pretty dark, depending on the proportions used, but are rarely what
we'd call pitch black.
> Can anyone think of any other all black food, either period or
> modern? Is the rarity because of it's appearance or the difficulty
> of coloring a food black?
Well, black puddings, especially when grilled or fried, can get
pretty black, although normally their interior is sort of deep, dark,
purplish-red, and blood turns up fairly frequently as a "black"
coloring agent. I'd say the relative rarity of black foods in the
standard medieval food references might be due to the more-or-less
festive nature of things like recipe sources and feast menus (with
some exceptions, which, being exceptions, are fairly rare). I'd say a
black dish, or a table full of them, might be said to be depressing,
and perhaps that is the intention anyway, or at least ostensibly so.
Adamantius
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 12:39:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lawrence Bayne <shonsu_78 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Squid ink was Re: [Sca-cooks] Basque Food
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Squid ink tastes somewhat like a cross between
balsamic vinegar and verjuice. Very astringent for
some, but also very good. Used for flavoring more than
anything else.
Lothar
<the end>