mincemeat-pie-msg - 11/7/08
Period mincemeat pies. Recipes.
NOTE: See also the files: pies-msg, tarts-msg, fruit-pies-msg, meat-pies-msg, minced-meat-art, meatloaf-msg, sausages-msg, veal-msg, puddings-msg, fruits-msg.
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This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
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Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 07:05:54 -0500
From: vjarmstrong at aristotle.net (Valoise Armstrong)
Subject: Re: SC - Tartys in Applis-NEW recipe-enjoy
Tyrca wrote:
>Very interesting, Ras, and it brings up a question that I have had for
>some time, about mincemeat. I grew up with mincemeat pies for
>Christmas as something with _meat_ in them. My mother usually used
>leftover roast beef or venison, put it through a hand grinder, and
>added the apples and raisins, and canned the filling to use for the
>holidays. It is my father's favorite. As I grew older, and went more
>out into the world, I discovered that other people I talked to had
>never heard of meat in mince pies. They thought I was crazy.
>
>Did they really use meat in mincemeat pies in period? Or is my family
>just an abberation? Any recipes? Anyone?
Fruit in medieval meat pies was a very common occurance.
Actually, until the second half of the fifteenth century recipes for meat
pies with fruit seem to be much more common than for fruit pies without
meat. Many meat pies were baked in a heavy flour and water crust that
served mostly as a container for the ingredients and could stand up under
long cooking times. Some writer's have claimed that the innovation of a
lighter and more edible pie crust and suggested that this new pie crust
made the fruit pies (which needed shorter cooking times) much more popular.
This is all supposition on the part of the historians so I set out to see
if I could verify it by scanning a number of cookbooks for recipes for
fruit pies that did not include meat. Out of about twenty English, French
and German cookbooks from the 14th to 16th century one percent or fewer
recipes were for fruit pies in the earlier two centuries while twelve
percent of all the 16th century recipes were for fruit only pies.
These are imperfect statistics since most of my 16th C. sources were German
- - so it might be a regional fad.
Valoise
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 21:59:41 EDT
From: WOLFMOMSCA at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Mincemeat Pies
In a message dated 98-10-12 08:59:16 EDT, Tyrca wrote:
<< Did they really use meat in mincemeat pies in period? Or is my family
just an abberation? Any recipes? Anyone? >>
The Good Hous-wives Treasurie, 1588
To Make Minst Pyes
Take your Veale and perboyle it a little, or mutton. Then set it a cooling:
and when it is colde, take three pound of suit to a legge of mutton, or fower
pound to a fillet of Veale, and then mince them small by themselves, or
together whether you will. Then take to season them halfe an unce of Sinamon,
a little Pepper, as much Salt as you think will season them, either to the
mutton or to the Veale, take eight yolkes of Egges when they be hard, half a
pinte of rosewater full measure, halfe a pound of Suger. Then straine the
Yolkes with the Rosewater and the Suger and mingle it with your meats. If ye
have any Orrenges or Lemmans you must take two of them, and take the pilles
very thin and mince them very smalle, and put them in a pound of currans, six
dates, half a pound of prunes. Laye Currans and Dates upon the top of your
meate. You must take two or three Pomewaters or Wardens and mince with your
meate...; if you will make good crust put in three or foure yolkes of egges, a
little Rosewater, and a good deale of Suger.
Now, I dunno about y'all, but that looks to make into one humunguous pie.
Here's how I would do it.
1 lb. of cooked red meat (doesn't really matter what kind)
1/2 lb. suet
Mince these up real small (rough grind if you've got a grinder)
1/2 tsp. cinnamon
1/4 tsp. pepper
1/2 tsp. salt (if you wish)
Mix this in with your ground meat.
2 hard-boiled egg yolks
2 Tbsp. rosewater
2 Tbsp. sugar
Mash these together, then mix it in with the meat
Finely minced peel of 1/2 of a lemon (or orange)
8 prunes, finely minced
2 c. minced apple or pear
Mix this in with the meat
Put the resulting mixture into a pre-baked pie crust.
Mince 1/4 c. of currants and 3 dates, then scatter across the top of the
mixture.
Top with a crust if you wish, or simply cover the pie with tinfoil. Bake at
350 degrees for about 45 minutes if using a top crust, or 35 minutes covered
with foil, then 10 minutes uncovered.
Serve hot.
I remember my Grandmother's first taste of a Dromedary mix mince pie. She was
heard to complain bitterly that it wasn't mincemeat, it was mince fruit, and
how dare they lie to her on the box. ;-)
Wolfmother
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 09:48:30 -0400
From: "Jeff Gedney" <JGedney at dictaphone.com>
Subject: Re: SC -Mus, Brei and confusion
Adamantius (long may he wave) did write:
> Oh, definitely! A terrine, though, is generally made from raw meat,
> etc., packed into an earthenware pot/mold, and baked, while a mortrews
> is, as far as I know, invariably made from minced, and pounded,
> previously cooked meat, then thickened with bread or other starchy
> stuff.
Heiatt has a Caudon of Beef in an "Ordinance of Pottage", which reads
as a minced beef mixture, which is molded, and cooked in a "Coffin".
> As for the idea of mortrews being molded, it's a nice idea, and
> makes sense, but how much evidence do you really have for this actually
> being done? It occurs to me that unless you have a recipe or a specific
> reference to mortrews in connection with molds, a feast description, or
> some such (which you may actually have, for all I know), it would be
> hard to make that strong a case for it. Of course it's still perfectly
> viable as speculation.
My personal theory is that they used Prebaked molded shells of Coffin dough
as baking dishes. Then the Dough could be broken off and given to the
staff, or given out with the crusts to the poor.
Certainly a number of forcemeat type recipes seem to be placed in coffins
but dont otherwise read like pie recipes. I think that it is likely that they
used coffin dough a lot like we sometimes bake with aluminum foil today,
as a disposible dish or dish liner to aid cleanup.
FWIW, a hard coffin shell, infused with meat juices, egg, and fat would
be dandy dog fare, and I think a thrifty household would find a way use
them, without waste.
brandu
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 11:43:41 +1200
From: Antonia Calvo <ladyadele at paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fruit and Meat
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius wrote:
<<< Some of this may be true. Can anyone give me a "dessert" dish that
*does* contain meat?
The only one I could think of is mincemeat pie, but I also believe
mincemeat pie doesn't actually contain any meat. >>>
It used to; there are several extant 17th (and, I think, 16th)
century recipes calling for beef or veal, plus suet. The filling is
essentially a sausage mixture with lots of fruit mixed in.
--------
There are 15th/16th recipes calling for both meat and dried fruit as a
pie filling. There are _still_ recipes out there for mincemeat made
with meat. I think there's one in the Fanny Farmer cookbook.
--
Antonia di Benedetto Calvo
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 20:49:21 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fruit and Meat
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
The traditional recipe in my family contains real meat in the
mincemeat. One puts up the mincemeat, lets it age and then
one makes the traditional dark fruitcakes in part with the homemade mincemeat.
One then lets the cakes age for a suitable period of time, while soaking
them every once in awhile in brandy or whisky.
So that answers the question about there being a dessert dish that
contains meat!
As for Mince meat recipes and mentions- part of the problem lies on the
spelling of the terms. Mince or minst or minse, etc.
After some searching here are some mentions in chronological order from OED
*1573* C. HOLLYBAND /French Schoole-maister/ 94 O Lorde, he hath supped
up all the brothe of this mince pie.
*1578* Lyte /Dodoens/ i. ciii. 146 Chopte or minsed meate.
*1585* T. Washington tr. /Nicholay's Voy/ iii. xi. 90 b, Pies of minced
meate, and rice.
*1604* T. DEKKER /News from Graves-end/ Ep. Ded. sig B3, Ten thousand in
London swore to feast their neighbors with nothing but plum-porredge,
and mince-pyes all
Christmas.
*1626* Bacon /Sylva/ /enticons/sect.gif46 With a good strong
Chopping-knife, mince the two Capons..as small as ordinary Minced Meat.
*1630* /Tincker of Turvey/ 23 If his wife puts but two fingers daintily
into a dish of mince-meat, he sweares she makes hornes at him.
*1662* S. PEPYS /Diary/ 6 Jan. (1970) III. 4 We have, besides a good
chine of beef and other good cheer, eighteen mince-pies in a dish, the
number of the years that he hath been married.
*1673* T. SHADWELL /Epsom-Wells/ IV, in /Wks./ (1720) II. 247 For
currants to make mince-pyes with.
[OED doesn't list it but there's also this mention too.
Frilingotti,a kinde of daintie chewet or mincedpie.
John Florio A vvorlde of wordes, 1598]
Recipe wise
To bake a Connie, Veale, or Mutton.
TAke a Conny and perboile it almoste enough, then mince the flesh of it
verie fine, and take with it three yolkes of hard egges, and mince with
it, then lay another Conny in your Pie being perboiled, and your minced
meat with it, being seasoned with Cloues, Mace, Ginger, Saffron Pepper &
Salt, with two dishes of sw?ete butter mixed with it, lay vpon your
Con|nie Barberies Gooseberies, or grapes, or the smal raisons, and so
bake it.
Thomas Dawson The second part of the good hus-wiues iewell. 1597
-------
A minc't pie.
Take a Legge of Mutton, and cut the best of the flesh from the bone, and
parboyle it well: then put to it three pound of the best Mutton suet,
and shred it very small: then spread it abroad, and season it with
Pepper and Salt, Cloues and Mace: then put in good store of Currants,
great Raisins and Prunes cleane washt and pickt, a few Dates slic't, and
some Orenge pills slic't: then being all well mixt together, put it into
a coffin, or into diuers coffins, and so bake them: and when they are
serued vp open the liddes, and strow store of Sugar on the top of the
meate, and vpon the lid. And in this sort you may also bake Beefe or
Veale; onely the Beefe would not bee parboyld, and the Veale will aske a
double quantity of Suet.
Markham, Gervase. The English house-vvife. 1631
----------
There's a long association of the pies with Christmas. In his
'Ceremonies for Christmasse" the poet Robert Herrick wrote:
Drink now the strong Beere,
Cut the white loafe here,
The while the meat is a shredding;
For the rare Mince-Pie
And the Plums stand by
To fill the Paste that's a kneading.
This was published in 1648 in his collection titled Hesperides.
Last but not least Ivan Day has a selection of recipes for mince pies on
website under the heading Bake Metes and Mince Pies.
See http://www.historicfood.com/Pie%20recipe2.htm
Johnnae
On Aug 13, 2008, at 6:52 PM, Stefan li Rous wrote:
Some of this may be true. Can anyone give me a "dessert" dish that
*does* contain meat?
He answered-- The only one I could think of is mincemeat pie, but I also believe mincemeat pie doesn't actually contain any meat.
Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius wrote:
It used to; there are several extant 17th (and, I think, 16th) century
recipes calling for beef or veal, plus suet. The filling is
essentially a sausage mixture with lots of fruit mixed in.
Many modern recipes still call for the suet, though.
There's also suet in quite a few English steamed, boiled and baked
puddings that are sweet and eaten as desserts.
Adamantius
<the end>