grape-leaves-msg - 12/1/18 Using grape leaves in cooking. Recipes. Sources. How to prepare fresh grape leaves. NOTE: See also the files: ME-feasts-msg, wine-msg, lamb-mutton-msg, wine-cooking-msg, fd-Turkey-msg, fd-Greece-msg, fd-Byzantine-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 13:26:13 EDT From: Tollhase1 at aol.com Subject: Re: stuffed grape leaves (was Re: SC - rocotti and cottage chease leftovers? Stuffed grape leaves. Two recipes- one meat and the other veggie. I have always had lamb or meat filled. Please note that my wife's recipe from a Greek friend is missing and offer these two. Recipe 1 Taken from our Immigrant Ancestors by Jeff Smith, ISBN 0-688-07590-8 1 pound ground lamb, [using beef instead for costs.] 1 cup long grain rice. [also mixing brown and wild rice in] 1/4 teas ground cinnamon 7 dozen fresh grape leaves, or 1 jar [friends mother ripped out her vines before I could get there. 1/4 teas allspice Salt/pepper to taste juice two lemons serve with yogurt and hot lemon sauce Mix lamb, rice, spices salt and pepper. If using fresh leaves, try to get smaller ones {personal experience, they work best}. Blanch them till they change color. Just a moment. Drain and cool. If using a jar, just sperate large from small. Place a layer of smaller leaves in the bottom of a large heavy bottomed kettle or sauce pot, with a cover. Lay each large grape leaf on a flat surface, vein side up. Trim away stem. [ v cut into bottom of leaf} Put about a tablespoon of mixture into grapeleaf. Form the mixture into a cylindrical shape apx, 1/2 x 2 or three inches. Depends upon grape leaf. Fold up the bottom, [stem side] up. Fold in both side. Roll top over for tight fit. Place in Pot. Place tightly next to each other so they won't unwrap. About 3 or 4 layers deep. Place plate over layers. Cover with water. Bring to boil, then turn down to a simmer and cook, covered for one hour. After the first 30 minutes of cooking, add the lemon juice. Recipe number 2 Greek Cooking, by Ruth Kershner ISBN 0-517-239329 Dolmadakia 1 jar leaves 1 1/2 T olive oil 1 medium onion 1/2 cup pine nuts 3/4 cup wild rice 1/2 cup golden raisins 2 1/2 cups water 2 tablespoons parsley finely chopped 1/2 teas salt fresh ground pepper 2 medium tomatoes {obviously not period} juice of lemon First part same as above Saute onions until limp. Add pine nuts and cook 5 minutes. Add rice, raisins and 1 1/2 cup water. Cover and cook for 20 minutes or until all the liquid is absorbed. Stir in parsley, salt, pepper cinnamon and tomatoes. Fill and fold as above recipe. Place in pan same as above. Pour 1 cup water over. Place plate over. Cook 30 minutes This recipe recommends serving with lemon wedges. I am making a mint yurgert dip to go with both grape leaves and meatballs. Recipe......Add fresh mint from garden until it tastes right let it sit overnight before serving. Hope this helps. Does anyone have any period sources for these. I did not see on in the Missanary Lord Frederich Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 14:40:27 EDT From: CorwynWdwd at aol.com Subject: Re: stuffed grape leaves (was Re: SC - rocotti and cottage chease leftovers? karla at silverspin.net writes: > Anyone have any good recipes for these things? Has anyone ever gone and > gotten fresh grape leaves to make them with? I've only ever had them made > with the canned ones. > > Charlotte I stuff mine with brown rice and pine nuts, seasoned with rosemary, dill, oregano and a little salt. Most of the supermarkets and the one middle eastern store carry jars of grape leaves. I truly think you could stuff a canned grape leaf with shredded paper and it would taste good though. Corwyn Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 15:39:29 -0500 From: a14h at zebra.net (William Seibert) Subject: Re: stuffed grape leaves I was introduced to dolmatti (stuffed grape leaves) when I was stationed in Greece. Grape leaves are first preserved in olive oil, then used to wrap a stuffing made of cubed lamb and rice, both of which are ground together and spiced (to taste by the individual cooks) before stuffing. They are then oven baked and served under a white sauce. wajdi Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 18:47:01 +0100 From: "Oughton, Karin (GEIS, Tirlan)" Subject: RE: stuffed grape leaves (was Re: SC - rocotti and cottage chease leftovers? When you use the canned/packet preserved leaves, do you soak them first to get rid of the salt? The reason I'm asking is the one time I made dolmades we didn't soak the leaves ( if you should) and the whole dish was *incredibly* salty - almost to the point of inedibility. k. Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 13:51:51 EDT From: Tollhase1 at aol.com Subject: Re: stuffed grape leaves (was Re: SC - rocotti and cottage chease leftovers? Yes, I soak them or at least rinse them. I have also used fresh leaves. The Key is young small leaves. The older ones get tuff. And only blanch them enough to make them plyable. Frederich Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 14:47:51 EDT From: CorwynWdwd at aol.com Subject: Re: stuffed grape leaves (was Re: SC - rocotti and cottage chease leftovers? Karin.Oughton at geis.ge.com writes: > When you use the canned/packet preserved leaves, do you soak them first to > get rid of the salt? I rinse them, but then, I rinse everything. Maybe I'm part raccoon. Corwyn Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 21:43:57 -0700 (PDT) From: "Peggy A. Stonnell" Subject: RE: stuffed grape leaves (was Re: SC - rocotti and cottage chease leftovers? On Tue, 18 May 1999, Oughton, Karin (GEIS, Tirlan) wrote: > When you use the canned/packet preserved leaves, do you soak them first to > get rid of the salt? The reason I'm asking is the one time I made dolmades > we didn't soak the leaves ( if you should) and the whole dish was > *incredibly* salty - almost to the point of inedibility. > > k. I take mine out of the jar, and rinse them very well in a collander. Lots of running water. I don't soak them, I want the salt to run away. Isobel fitz Gilbert Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 15:07:05 EDT From: Tollhase1 at aol.com Subject: Re: stuffed grape leaves timorra asked: >i am curious can you use any kind of grape leaf or is there only certain ones >you can use? >i would be interested in hearing what kind of leaf most use..or am i >misreading something? I have always used what ever I could find for free, no matter what type of grape they produce or the canned ones if I was desperate. Frederich Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 01:49:18 EDT From: LordVoldai at aol.com Subject: Re: stuffed grape leaves [about using fresh grape leaves] don't use the older leaves, use the younger tender leaves. blanch them in salted water with some lemon juice for a few min., then pat dry and you should be good to go. voldai Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 08:38:50 EDT From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: SC - grape leaves lainie at gladstone.uoregon.edu writes: << Anyone have any good recipes for these things? Has anyone ever gone and gotten fresh grape leaves to make them with? I've only ever had them made with the canned ones. >> Yes. As with many foods, they are at there best when picked and used fresh. Leaves from any grape species like Lambrusco, Vinifera or even the southern US Scuppernong and wild northeastern US grapes are edible. Simply pick unblemished grape leaves that are of good size. Remove the coarse leaf stem. Drop them in boiling water for 30 seconds or so to blanch and use as you do the bottled ones. You will be amazed at the difference in flavor and quality. They can also be blanched and frozen for later use. Ras Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 16:49:06 CEST From: "Christina van Tets" Subject: SC - vine leaves There is actually a recipe for stuffed vine leaves not long out of period (ie. 60 years or so) in the English corpus. Lady Ann Blencowe, IIRC, included them in her collection, headed 'To make a delma'. You can find this quoted in Elisabeth Ayrton's 'Cookery of England'. Not that I'm claiming that the earlier Poms used them; it's just an interesting piece of relatively useless trivia (another souvenir from the Grand Tour??). BTW, the leaves are really easy to salt and mine were good for years, until I dropped them. Cairistiona nB Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 11:46:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen M Beck Subject: Re: stuffed grape leaves (was Re: SC - rocotti and cottage chease leftovers? Excerpts from internet.listserv.sca-cooks: 18-May-99 Re: stuffed grape leaves (w.. by LordVoldai at aol.com > YES!!! soak the leaves to romove the brine Oh blah! Don't do that -- the briny taste adds a really nice accent to the grape leaves. toodles, margaret Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 11:48:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen M Beck Subject: Re: SC - RE: stuffed grape leaves Excerpts from internet.listserv.sca-cooks: 19-May-99 SC - RE: stuffed grape leaves by Stefan li Rous at texas.net > Canned grape leaves?!!! I'd have never even guessed to look for these. > Anyone else tried these and fresh grape leaves? How do they compare? > Is there some other use for these other than in dolmades? You can't do this with the canned leaves, but Platina has a recipe for either grape leaves or grape tendrils done pretty much like boiled greens. toodles, margaret 'p.s. For whatever reason, I tend to find bottled grape leaves around the olives in larger grocery stores. Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 10:13:12 -0600 From: "Stapleton, Jeanne" Subject: RE: stuffed grape leaves (was Re: SC - rocotti and cottage chease leftovers? Excerpts from internet.listserv.sca-cooks: 18-May-99 Re: stuffed grape leaves (w.. by LordVoldai at aol.com > YES!!! soak the leaves to romove the brine Oh blah! Don't do that -- the briny taste adds a really nice accent to the grape leaves. toodles, margaret Count me as someone else who would like to remind everyone that "too salty" is a matter of *personal* taste. Anything someone says is "too salty" is likely to have me running to try is, as a bonafide sodium chloridaholic. This soaking could explain why I've had some really bland (and therefore to me inedible) dolmades at feasts, and really flavorful ones at Greek restau- rants... Berengaria Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 09:58:58 -0700 From: david friedman Subject: RE: stuffed grape leaves (was Re: SC - rocotti and cottage chease leftovers? At 9:56 AM -0700 5/18/99, karla at silverspin.net wrote: >And I think the recipe is period as well, as this lady frequently brings really >interesting period things to events and then shares them with lots of >people. That would be interesting if so; off hand I can't think of any period recipes for stuffed grape leaves. Aside from recipes, has anyone seen period mentions of them? David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 13:57:44 -0700 From: kat Subject: SC - grape leaves period?? In the translation of Sabina Welserin located at http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Cookbooks/Sabrina_Welserin.html there is a recipe for quail cooked by wrapping them in grape leaves to keep in the moisture... - kat Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 22:58:38 -0400 From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow) Subject: Re: SC - Potluck part two.... >So far nobody has offered evidence that any stuffed grape leaves are >period, although there seems to be a slightly out of period reference to >them--recipe so far unknown (i.e. hasn't been posted; I assume someone >knows it). > >David/Cariadoc There is a reference to stuffed *fig* leaves in Athenaeus, but not grape leaves: "...visions of tender-flaked barley cakes, wheat bread, fine meal cakes, octopuses, entrails, suet, sausages, soup, beets, stuffed fig leaves, ..." Gulick's edition, Vol. 2, Book IV, p. 105. Cindy Renfrow renfrow at skylands.net Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 18:30:43 EDT From: RButler96 at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Dolmas, Dolmades I am in possession of a translation of a 12th century "cookbook". The general references to a grape leave wrapped delicacies make me think that perhaps this would be an early forerunner. I would be happy to provide the reference location if you would like. My local college library was able to locate a copy for me. Khadijah bint Mika'il al-Zarqa' mka Rebecca Butler Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 22:13:03 EDT From: RButler96 at aol.com Subject: SC - Period cookery recipes Since I have had so many inquiries, I felt it necessary to share this on the list. A Baghdad Cookery Book al-Baghdadi 1229 Translated in "Islamic Culture" (a journal) the January 1939 edition Be patient when requesting it. One of the Ivy League schools has a hard copy, and U of F has a microfiche copy that I have a print out of the complete thing. It's about 40 or 50 pages, and details many recipes, and some great stories of the time. It's basically one man's favorite dishes. There are a couple that resemble dolma. My Lord husband and I recently presented a feast taken from this publication, and it went over absolutely beautifully. Khadijah bint Mika'il al-Zarqa' Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:03:30 +0200 From: "Cindy M. Renfrow" Subject: Re: SC - Re: Roman Recipes LONG >> Or flat bread to wrap the food in- the original souvlaki, falafal, gyros >> sandwich etc. Even food like barley can be served in bread bowls. > >And when we discussed bread bowls further back no one could point to >bread bowls being period as food containers. Anyone have any evidence >for this being done in period, now? Yes. In Athenaeus' Deipnosophistae (III. 125-126vol 2, pp 83-85, 1928 edition), from a string of disjointed quotations: "Give me a mystilÍ [ed.- a piece of bread used in lieu of a spon]; for I will not use the word mystron..." And then: [Athenaeus quoting Nicander] "'But when you prepare a dish of fresh-killed kid or lamb or capon, sprinkle some groats in a hollow bowl and pound them well, then stir in a fragrant oil, well mixed. When the broth is boiling hard, pour it over the meal, put the lid on the pan, and smother it; for when it is stewed in this way, the heavy meal swells up. Serve it when mildly warm in hollow mystra.' [Athenaeus speaking] In these terms...Nicander indicates the use of pudding and barley-groats , directing that a broth of lamb or kid or fowl be poured over it. To repeat his words: pound the groats in a mortar, mix oil with it and stir it in the broth when it begins to boil. When, after these preliminaries, the mixture actively boils up again, it should be stirred with the ladle without adding any other ingredient; simply spoon it off as it is, to prevent any of the rich fat at the top from boiling over. That is why he says 'put on the lid and cover the boiling liquid'; for the meal swells up then it is smothered in this way. Finally, when it has cooled to a mild heat, eat it with hollow pieces of bread." He mentions earlier (p. 105), in a list of comestibles served at a feast, "stuffed fig-leaves". The editorial note says "[spelled in greek letters] thrion, a dish often mentioned by the comic poets, consisting of eggs, milk, flour, honey, cheese, and lard in a wrapping of fig leaves. Cf. the modern Greek dish dolmades, made with grape leaves. Cindy Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 11:08:37 -0500 From: Elaine Koogler To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] dolmas This is not a period recipe, but comes from a lovely Greek cookbook produced by the Women's group of a Greek Orthodox church...don't have the book down here right now, so can't remember the name of the church. I have made these numerous times and they've been well-received: Stuffed Grapevine Leaves with Avgolemono Sauce (Dolmades me Avgolemono) Yield--6 - 8 servings 1 1/2 lbs. ground beef or lamb 1 1/2 C. chopped onion 1 C raw converted rice salt and pepper to taste 1 tsp. dried mint leaves or 3 Tbsp. chopped fresh mint. 1/4 cup chopped fresh dill 1/4 cup water 1 lb. jar grape leaves 3 cups hot chicken stock 1 Tbsp. butter Avgolemono Sauce (recipe below) Combine meat, onions, rice, salt, pepper, mint and dill. Add water and mix well. Drain brine from jar of grape leaves and wash leaves well. Put one heaping tablespoon of meat and rice mixture in center of leaf's dull side and roll leaf tightly, folding edges over and rolling toward point of leaf. Cover bottom of an ungreased Dutch oven or casserole with torn leaves. Arrange rolls in layers. Pour hot chicken stock over rolls and dot with butter. Cover with a heavy plate to keep rolls from opening as rice puffs. Cover casserole and cook over low heat for 1 hour. There should be some liquid left in casserole for Avgolemono Sauce. If dry when cooking time is up, add 1 cup water and simmer for a few minutes longer. Remove from heat and keep covered. Measure liquid and prepare the sauce. To serve, remove to plate and pour sauce over dolmades. Avgolemono Sauce (Saltsa Avgolemono) Yield--2 cups 3 eggs 1/2 tsp. salt (optional) 6 Tbsp. fresh lemon juice 1 cup boiling chicken stock (from cooking dolmades) In a saucepan, beat eggs until frothy. Gradually add lemon juice and hot liquid, stirring constantly. Add salt and simmer over very low heat, stirring constantly, until mixture has thickened. Do not allow mixture to come to a boil. Blender or Food processor method: Add eggs to container and blend on high speed until frothy, at least 2 minutes. Add salt and lemon juice, and blend 1 minute longer. With motor running, slowly add hot liquid. When all liquid is blended, return to pot and simmer on low heat, stirring occasionally, until thickened. Kiri Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 12:44:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Huette von Ahrens Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Verjus To: Cooks within the SCA --- "Laura C. Minnick" wrote: > Nota bene: the blooms on the plum tree directly behind my window are > beginning to sag, but I can see the grapevine from her, and there's leaves > sprouting- maybe the size of a teaspoon, but > soon bigger! Can anyone say dolmades? ;-) > > 'Lainie Dolma, more correctly. According to the Oxford Companion to Food [and this entry was written by Charles Perry]; Dolma : vegetales stuffed in the East Mediterranean style. There are two main categories: those with meat stuffings (usually extended with grain), which are served hot, often with a sauce such as broth thickened with lemon juice and eggs; and those with rice stuffings (often enriched with nuts, raisins, or pulses), which are served cold, dressed in oil. The latter are also known as yalanji dolma (Turkish 'yalanci' or 'counterfeit'; namely meatless.) In Turkey, a distinction may also be made between dolma ('stuffed thing') made from a hollowed-out vegetable (aubergine, courgette, sweet pepper, or tomato; less often potato, artichoke, cucumber, carrot, or celery), and sarma ('rolled thing'), where the filling is rolled in an edible leaf, such as vine leaf or cabbage. A sort of sarma may also be made from separated layers of boiled leek or onion rolled around a stuffing. Dolmas are vernacular food in Turkey, the Balkans, the southern Caucasus, Iran, Central Asia (where the word differs in form according to the Turkish lnguage: dolama in Turkmen, tulma in Tatar), and in Egypt, the Fertile Crescent, and Arabia. Kaldomar ('cabbage dolmas') have long been part of Swedish cuisine also, as an unplanned consequence of Charles XII's sojourn in Turkey after his defeat by the Rusians at the battle of Poltava. When he returned to Sweden in 1715, he was followed by his Turkish reditors --and their cooks--who remained until 1732. This distribution, as well as the name dolma itself, indicates that this dish belongs to the court cusine of the Ottoman Empire. Vegetables had been stuffed before Ottoman times, but only sporadically. For instance, the ancient Greek 'thrion' was a fig leaf stuffed with sweetened cheese, and some medieval Arabic cookbooks give recipes for aubergine stufed with meat (and also, curiously, for the reverse; chunks of cooked aubergine coated with meat like a Scotch Egg. However, it was in Istanbul that stuffed vegetables were first treated as a regular culinary genre. The Ottoman origin is somewhat obscured by the fact that in some countries stuffed vegetables may be referred to by a native name meaning 'stuffed', such as 'yemistos' (Greek) or 'mahshi' (Arabic). Indeed, some Arabic dialects rarely if ever use the word 'dolma'. Nevertheless, the signs of Turkish origin are clear. In places as remote as Kuwait and Damascus, instead of "mahshi waraq'inab" (stuffed vine leaf) one may say "mahshi yabraq" (in Kuwait, "mahshi brag") which comes from the Turkish 'yaprak' (leaf). Huette Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 22:20:18 -0400 From: Patrick Levesque Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Stuffed grape leaves To: "Cooks within the SCA " The historical backing is very flimsy, but you can find recipes on the Gode Cookery website as well: http://www.godecookery.com/byznrec/byznre.htm Petru Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 06:10:37 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Stuffed grape leaves To: Cooks within the SCA To Make a Delma. Take the Lean meat of Loyn of mutton and as much beef Suet, shread it small as for force meat. Then put the smae quanity of Rice boyld tender, season it with sweet herbs, salt & pepper, & a little nutmeg; then mix it all together and brake in one or two eggs according to the quantity of your meat. Then take Cabbage or vine leaves and dip them in hot water, then role the meat in ye leaves about the bigness of a small Cucumber, and tye them with course thread, put them into a stewpan with gravey, put them over a gentle fire cover'd. Let them stew till they be thoroughly done, then take them out and take off the thread, thicken the gravey the yolk of an egg and pour it over your meat. page 29. The Receipt Book of Ann Blencowe. This is from the Adelphi Limited edition from 1925 which I own. The manuscript carries a date of 1694, but Ann was born in 1656 and married in 1675. I suspect that this was compiled for one of her daughters upon a marriage. The mss remained in the family and the 1925 edition is the first time that it was published. There was another edition done later, but it's not as nice as this one. Neither is very available. Johnnae llyn Lewis Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 10:22:4 -0700 From: "Wanda Pease" Subject: [Sca-cooks] Ann Blencowe Recipe Book: was: Stuffed Grape Leaves To: "Cooks within the SCA" The recipe book is currently available from Provincial Press Books for $21.00 for those who might be interested. - Regina http://www.provincialpress.us/index.html ~*~ http://www.provincialpress.us/Books%20for%20the%20Tade.htm The Receipt Book of Mrs. Ann Blencowe Anno Domine 1694 Introduction by George Saintsbury ~ Preface by Leander W. Smith With an Essay by Robert de Berardinis So accustomed are we to using the term ‘receipt book’ as a synonym or ‘accounting ledger’ that we pass by those early tomes wherein the homemakers of yesteryear wrote their instructions for the preparation of food and the curing of ills. Such are the contents of this book.” So reads the preface to this collectable volue. The manuscript on which the first edition is based was compiled in the year 1694 in England’s Parliamentary jurisdiction of Brackley. Mrs. Blencowe, née Anne Wallis, was born in 1657, into a family of upper middle-class society. The complation contains over eighty “Household Receipts.” Sack Posset, Shaking Pudding, Pickled Walnuts, Flummery, Hashed Calves Head, Hodge Podge, Sillabub, Rabbit Pie, and “Pickle Lila” {Piccalilli} are samplings. Among some sixty entries in the section named “historical Receipts” are: For the Green Sickness, For Shrunken Sinews, Drink for the Spleen, High Spirited Pills, Blessed Pills, The King’s Evil – and Horse Dung Water, which was prescribed for “women in labor for Agues and feavers and distemper.” An essay on George Saintsbury, the renowned early twentieth-century literary critic and connoisseur, who provided an introduction for the first edition in 1925, details the man’s passion for fine wines. Comments by one of today’s well-known experts on the world of wine are featured. Reprint. 77 pages, 8½ x 11. Wrappers. Item no. BL2. $21.00. Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 13:14:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Huette von Ahrens ubject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Stuffed grape leaves To: Cooks within the SCA > The Receipt Book of Ann Blencowe. This is from the Adelphi Limited edition > from 1925 which I own. The manuscript carries a date of 1694, but Ann was > born in 1656 and married in 1675. I suspect that this was compiled for one > of her dauhters upon a marriage. The mss remained in the family and the 1925 > edition is the first time that it was published. I would say that this recipe makes dolma way out of period for Europe, but possibly speculatively in period for the Middle East. The problem being that 100years can see a lot of change within a region, even in the Middle East. I believe that the Ottoman Empire chefs started a lot of traditional foods that we associate with Middle Eastern foods today, but that aren't really appropriate for the SCA time frame. I suspect that dolma could be one of these. I know that baklava is another. Huette Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 15:48:37 -0400 From: Avraham haRofeh Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] frozen dolmas To: Cooks within the SCA > I am thinking about doing some grape leaves, stuffed with rice, minced > raisins, parsley & mint for war. Has anyone ever tried freezing these? I haven't done so, but it sounds like they ought to freeze fine. Just be certain to heat them thoroughly (steaming would work well) so the starches in the rice will uncrystallize - if you don't, the rice will be like little rocks (assuming you use regular long-grain rice). **************** Reb Avraham haRofeh (mka Randy Goldberg MD) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 17:07:24 -0400 From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] frozen dolmas To: Cooks within the SCA > Thanks! I hadn't thought of serving them warm, just thoroughly > defrosted. Although I have used long grained rice, my preference is > for medium grained rice, as I cannot seem to find short grained > among my usual haunts. It is gooier by nature, and I tend to cheat. > Cook the rice, make the filling, stuff the leaves, sprinkle with > lemon water & bake 15 minutes at 350 (or nuke 2 minutes with less > water for just a few in a hurry). I had too much trouble with > exploding dolmas on the stove.... Instead of cooking the rice, pour boiling water over it and let it soak for 20 mins or so, then drain and use in your dolma. The rice will swell, but not over cook when you cook the dolma. Frozen dolma won't be quite as good as fresh, but still fine. I've frozen fresh grape leaves, it wont hurt them. Ranvaig Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 20:57:27 -0400 From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] frozen dolmas To: Cooks within the SCA I use the recipe from A Book of Middle Eastern Food by Claudia Roden But I double the recipe for a 1 lb jar of leaves, I'd always have too many leaves left over Fresh young leaves.. picked in the spring are even better. 1 lb jar of grape leaves (50-60) 3/4 c rice 2-3 tomatoes, skinned and chopped 1 large onion, finely chopped 2 1/2 T parsley, finely chopped 2 1/2 T mint, finely chopped 1/4 tsp gnd cinnamon 1/4 tsp gnd allspice pepper to taste 3-4 cloves garlic, sliced 1/2 c olive oil 1/2 c water 1/4 tsp saffron (optional) 1 tsp sugar juice of a lemon, or more Put the grape leaves in a bowl and pour boiling water over them, let soak 20 min, drain. Put the rice in a bowl, pour boiling water to more than cover, let soak 20 min, drain Mix rice with tomatoes, onion, parsley, mint and spices, adjust seasoning. Line the bottom of the pan with a few torn or tough leaves. Stuff the leaves and roll up, pack tightly in the pan. Put the garlic here and there. Mix the oil, water and saffron, pour over the leaves. Put a small plate on the top (I've never needed to do this). Cover the pan and simmer gently for 2 hours, until thoroughly cooked. Add water as needed, a cup at a time. Cool in the pan before turning out. Serve cold. Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 03:47:48 -0400 From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Grape Leaves To: Cooks within the SCA <<< Does anyone have a tried and true recipe for preserving grape leaves? I am sure I can find TONS of them on the internet and in my library but if anyone has one they have tried I would appreciate it. I have not grapes this year on my one year old vines but lots of leaves! >>> Its a little late in the season now (unless you are in the Southern hemisphere). You want to pick them in spring as soon as they have gotten big enough, while they are still a lighter green. By now they will be tougher. I'd let your little vine get as much energy as it can for next year. Years ago, I lived at a house with a huge wild grape vine, growing to the top of a telephone pole. I've never canned them, but have had good luck freezing them. Blanch them in boiling water, then make a stacks of 25 or so and freeze them flat in a plastic bag with the air squeezed out. When you want to use them, let them defrost, then pour boiling water over them again. Ranvaig Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 19:44:10 -0700 (PDT) From: charding at nwlink.com Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Grape Leaves To: "Cooks within the SCA" <<< Does anyone have a tried and true recipe for preserving grape leaves? I am sure I can find TONS of them on the internet and in my library but if anyone has one they have tried I would appreciate it. I have not grapes this year on my one year old vines but lots of leaves! Eduardo >>> after picking the leaves (we try to pick leaves that would be shading the tiny bunches of grapes), we rinse them and trim off the stems, stack them in piles of 10 to 15 leaves, roll them and tie them off with some hemp twine, blanche them in a medium salt brine, put them in quart jars, fill with the brine, add some lemon juice to the brine and process in a water bath for 15 min. Maeva Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 08:24:07 -0400 From: Elaine Koogler To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] 16th c. Safavid dulma-ye kalam (stuffed cabbage leaves) There is a recipe in Dame Hauviette's "A Celebration at the Serayi" for a period version of dolmas that does use grapevine leaves. She devised the recipe from a 16th c. travel diary by a German visiting Turkey. The description of the dish in the diary is pretty specific, even to specifying that "wine leaves" were used. However, it does not use rice as one of the ingredients but does describe how the leaves are wrapped around the filling as well as the completed item being boiled in water. Kiri On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 9:05 PM, wrote: <<< The subject of dolma comes up here occasionally, so here is more "food for thought"... From the Safavid Persian cookbook, "Maddat al-khayat, resala dar elm-e tabbaki" (The substance of life, a treatise on the art of cooking), dated to 1594/5 and written by Ostad Nurollah, the head chef of Shah Abbas I (r. 1587-1629) Dulma-ye kalam [stuffed cabbage] This is cooked by the people of Rum [Ottoman Turks] very often. In Iran it is not well known. How it is made : Brown finely chopped meat. Then prepare rice, which was mixed with chickpeas, onions, crushed spices and salt. Break down the cabbage into leaves, blanch each, then wrap the chopped meat and the rice in the cabbage leaves. Then put this into a pot, drip some clear meat broth and melted fat into it, and let it simmer. (my translation) The Persians drank a lot of wine, and would have vine leaves available, but they apparently are not used in this recipe. -- Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM] the persona formerly known as Anahita >>> Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 11:27:07 -0700 From: lilinah at earthlink.net To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] 16th c. Safavid dulma-ye kalam (stuffed cabbage leaves) Kiri wrote: <<< There is a recipe in Dame Hauviette's "A Celebration at the Serayi" for a period version of dolmas that does use grapevine leaves. She devised the recipe from a 16th c. travel diary by a German visiting Turkey. The description of the dish in the diary is pretty specific, even to specifying that "wine leaves" were used. However, it does not use rice as one of the ingredients but does describe how the leaves are wrapped around the filling as well as the completed item being boiled in water. >>> Yes, her recipe is based on the one from the journal of Hans Dernschwam (Hauviette consistently leaves out the "n" in his last name). He was in Kostantiniyye (aka Constantinople aka Istanbul) from 1553 to 1555. Hauviette described Dernschwam as a young man when he was in Istanbul. However he was born in Bohemia in 1494 (and died in 1568), so when he was in Istanbul, he was 59 to 61. Not what I would call a young man, but YMMV. Dernschwam was not exactly a fan of Ottoman Turkish food. He begins his section on food by saying, "the Turks eat poor miserable foods that one shudders (to think of eating)..." He was born in Bohemia and was a pensioned chief clerk and mining engineer for the Fuggers, the important 15th and 16th c. German mercantile, banking, and venture capitalist family, (much like the Welsers, who left us cookbooks ;), who took over many Medici assets and much of their political power. Dernschwam wasn't a cook, but he was a relatively sophisticated man, known for his extensive library on many subjects. He may have understood the nuances of European food, but some of his journal descriptions show his prejudice against Ottoman food. I found his original recipe on Thomas Gloning's inimitable site: http://www.uni-giessen.de/gloning/tx/dernfood.htm Item, schaffen flaisch, klain gehagt, des thut man ein loffel voller auff ein wein plat, wigkelt man zusamen wie ein krapffen. Daruntter hagt man auch sawere pflawmen, sewdt man allein im wasser ab, das sol bey inen auch ein guth, herlich gericht sein vnd hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail. Krapffen have been mentioned here recently in the discussion of (apple) fritters. From what I have read of German recipes, and heard in discussions of krapffen, they are made of a thin layer of dough wrapped around a filling. Ranvaig has described them as being somewhat like pierogi or ravioli. I arrived at my translation, based on my own poor miserable knowledge of modern German, my struggles with Dernschwan's Bohemian vernacular spelling, and consultation with SCA cooks who actually know the German language (some on this very list!): Item, sheep meat, finely chopped, of that one puts a spoon full on a vine leaf, one wraps/folds (it) together like a krapfen. Thereunder one also chops sour plums, one boils them only in water, it is considered by them [Turks] a good, lordly dish to be and in addition (they) have vine leaves everywhere on sale. (hot = hat = "have", not the English "hot") Naturally, I continue to welcome improvements. I am not certain if the sour plums were in the water, as it appears to me to be, or in the dolmas with the meat. They are still put in the center of Tabrizi kofta, a giant meatball in a savory sauce (Tabriz is the fourth largest city in modern Iran, and the capital of East Azerbaijan Province, a city famous for its cuisine and woven pile rugs). On the other hand, nowadays, lemon juice and slices are often put in the water when cooking dolma - today of grape leaves sometimes filled with rice and meat, and sometimes rice only (occasionally with dried currants or cinnamon or dill herb or...) - possibly replacing those sour plums. I have found the appropriate plums packaged in my local Persian market. They are very small (the size of the plums used in Japanese umeboshi), dark yellow fleshed (I have only found them peeled), and quite sour. An ingredient in Shirvani's mid-15th c. cookbook and mentioned several times in Dernschwam, they are still used today in Azerbaijani and Persian cuisines. They are nothing like our much larger sweet plums and are even farther from prunes. -- Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM] the persona formerly known as Anahita From the fb "SCA Cooks" group: 5/16/18 Urtatim Al-Qurtubiyya I know of only one SCA-period dolma recipe. The filling is almost entire meat and no rice at all. Mid-16th c Ottoman. From Hans Dernschwam (b.1494-d.1567), who was in Kostantiniyye from 1553 thru 1555. My translation: Item, sheep meat, finely chopped, put one spoon full on a grape-vine leaf, wrap/fold together like a krapfen [dumpling, fritter], There under also have chopped sour plums, boil them only in water, it is considered by them [the Ottoman Turks] also a good lordly (marvelous) dish to be and in addition vine leaves are available for sale everywhere. The sour plums are NOT prunes, which are sweet. I've found them in Persian and halal markets - they are golden yellow and nicely tart. They can be ordered over the internet. For a substitute, i'd suggest a few lemon slices tucked under them. It is likely that the meat was seasoned with salt, and possibly with ground pepper. When i make them i also add a few cloves of garlic, smashed. Karen Houghton Of course you can use fresh grape leaves! Even better than canned. Don't pick leaves by the side of the road (you don't want car exhaust/nastiness on them). But if you know your leaves are clean and free of pesticides, by all means use them. Blanch them first, to soften and make them easier to roll. Proceed with your recipe as usual. Rebecca C Lewinski I make these often in summer out of our various grape varieties in our yard, so I have no idea if my advice is period or not. But pick a grape variety with leaves that aren't fuzzy on the backside. For some reason they don't tenderize as well--or digest as well for that matter. I've found that leaves the size of my palm is a great size to work with. Blanching and then freezing the leaves before use isn't period, but freezing does tenderize the leaves. Good luck and happy eating. Susan Fox I've done this, but found the flavor of the finished product blander than I expected. You might want to marinate the fresh leaves yourself, or else kick up the flavor levels in the filling. Phylis Larilee Maddox Slightly off topic but kudzu leaves might make a good substitute. On topic, as long as the leaves are in good shape and not chemically treated (at least 45 days pre-harvest - look at the instructions) then there's no reason you can't use them. But to be on the extra cautious side, look up the cultivar and make sure it isn't some weird mutant that has inedible leaves (which is really unlikely but what the heck, it's an easy thing to do). Edited by Mark S. Harris grape-leaves-msg Page 3 of 19