garum-msg - 12/1/99 A fermented fish sauce used in ancient Rome. Also includes comments on a similar fish sauce called liquamen. NOTE: See also the files: sauces-msg, fish-msg, murri-msg, spices-msg, pickled-food-msg, vinegar-msg, verjuice-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called StefanÕs Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with seperate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the orignator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: Lord Stefan li Rous RSVE60@email.sps.mot.com stefan@texas.net ************************************************************************ From: "Nick Sasso (fra niccolo)" <grizly@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 15:12:41 -0400 Subject: Re: SC - Definition > For those of us who are .... vocabularily challenged<g>, what is > "liquamen"? > > Caitlin "liquamen": another name for garum. A fermented fish sauce used in ancient Rome. Made by layering in a well sealed barrel, fatty fish such as mackerel or sardine, strong herbs, and about 1 1/2" of salt. Layer this until the barrel is filled and seal. Leave in the sun for about seven days. After this fermentation, stir daily for 2-3 weeks until it has turned to liquid. You'll find a detailed description of various methods and varieties on pages 27-29 in _A Taste of Ancient Rome_ by Giacosa. I have used oriental fish sauce, but it lacks the punch described of the original. Maybe adding the strong herbs to steep for a while in the fish sauce would help. Ant other suggestions would be appreciated as this is a common Roman condiment in cooking. Giacosa also offers two suggested preparations for garum on p. 29 for those who wish to avoid the seven day fermentation :o) - -- In Humble Service to God and Crown; fra nicol¢ difrancesco (mka nick sasso) From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy@asan.com> Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 15:55:47 -0400 Subject: Re: SC - Definition Nick Sasso (fra niccolo) wrote: > "liquamen": another name for garum. A fermented fish sauce used in > ancient Rome. Made by layering in a well sealed barrel, fatty fish such > as mackerel or sardine, strong herbs, and about > 1 1/2" of salt. Layer this until the barrel is filled and seal. Leave > in the sun for about seven days. After this fermentation, stir daily > for 2-3 weeks until it has turned to liquid. Bear in mind that there's more than one recipe available for liquamen. Some of them omit the "strong herbs" (some recipes specify oregano, but others specify only fish and salt). Some also call for whole fish, and others call for fish entrails. > You'll find a detailed description of various methods and varieties on > pages 27-29 in _A Taste of Ancient Rome_ by Giacosa. I have used > oriental fish sauce, but it lacks the punch described of the original. That would be hard to say for sure until you had experienced the punch of the original. It would also depend on _what_ oriental fish sauce you are referring to. There are dozens, some made from the whole fish or fish entrails as mentioned above, and some made from cleaned fish. Some are made from shrimp. Asia is a big place, and every hundred miles or so you come to a place where they think the people you just saw a hundred miles back are jerks who couldn't make fish sauce if their lives depended on it. : ) Variations on a central theme are therefore common. > Maybe adding the strong herbs to steep for a while in the fish sauce > would help. Ant other suggestions would be appreciated as this is a > common Roman condiment in cooking. That's just about the only solution I can think of, unless you make the stuff yourself. I'm not so sure about how much kick actual Roman liquamen might or might not have had, actually. There are recipes that call for adding it to wine as a beverage, IIRC. It might be a question of total effect, where you use a lot to get a powerful effect, and less for a more subtle approach. Adamantius From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy@asan.com> Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 16:06:16 -0400 Subject: Re: SC - Definition Peters, Rise J. wrote: > For those of us who are .... vocabularily challenged<g>, what is "liquamen"? > > Caitlin I seem to be getting messages out of sequence. As previously stated, liquamen, at least in ancient Roman usage, is a salty, tangy condiment made from fish. It is described as being a semi-clear liquid after the solids settle out. The semisolid dregs are called allec or hallec and are also used as a seasoning. However, watch out: Platina calls for liquamen in his recipes, and he is referring to rendered, liquid fat, such as melted lard or suet. Adamantius From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy@asan.com> Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 19:03:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Liquamen -- was: SC - Definition Nick Sasso (fra niccolo) wrote: > It seems that the brine keeps liquimen sanitary and promotes the > liquification, so it doesn't seem all that bad to me. The salt also > probably effects the pH to activate some of the enzymes and bacteria > needed as well. Strange to say the least. As I understand the process (there was a big to-do on liquamen, garum, nuoc mam, nampla, etc. in rec.food.historic a couple of weeks ago), the salt is there to prevent the growth and reproduction of pathogenic bacteria. This it does. It does allow a certain proliferation of lactobaccili, even with the high salinity. They eat whatever it is they eat and produce, in return, lactic acid, in which the fish are effectively pickled, just like kosher dills or sauerkraut. Enzymes in the fish (especially if there are entrails involved) break the fish down to a paste/liquid. Yum! ; ) Adamantius From: Uduido@aol.com Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:56:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SC - Liquamen In a message dated 97-07-08 16:53:56 EDT, you write: << what is "liquamen"? >> I think it was a fish sauce used by the Romans. I use an oriental fish sauce as a sub or if the dish is more subtle I use oyster sauce. Lord Ras From: "Melissa Martines" <melissa.martines@mail.corpfamily.com> Date: Wed, 09 Jul 97 08:35:17 CST Subject: SC - Garum I made some garum for the Roman Feast I did at our local May Tourney. I used mackerel (3.5 pounds cut into chunks), a lot of salt (6 pounds) oregano, coriander and cumin. I let it steep two weeks in the back of my car (I used a plastic beer fermenter for this) which sits in the sun most days (I went for two weeks since the Tennessee sunshine in March is probably not as powerful as the Italian). Then, I began stirring it. It does make a nice, clear, oily liquid. And, thanks probably to the salt, it never smelled (for which my lord was very grateful when I moved it into the house). The overwhelming taste of the stuff was salt. There was an undertaste of fish, and the herbs left a pleasant aftertaste. Everyone who tried it liked it -- the Baroness particularly liked it on the hardboiled egges in the salad :). In my research, I concluded that when recipes call for it, they are actually after the salt taste. The fish oil (very rich in nutrients) is an added benefit without a lot of added taste. Morgan From: Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy@abel.MATH.HARVARD.EDU> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:24:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Liquamen -- was: SC - Definition Adamantius wrote: As I understand the process (there was a big to-do on liquamen, garum, nuoc mam, nampla, etc. in rec.food.historic a couple of weeks ago), the salt is there to prevent the growth and reproduction of pathogenic bacteria. This it does. Indeed. While some of the exchange got stupidly personal and silly, it is well worth checking with http://www.dejanews.com for the thread, looking especially for postings from Andrew Smith. It was, shall we say, definitive. Check in the May/June timeframe. Tibor Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 18:01:13 EST From: LrdRas <LrdRas@aol.com> Subject: Re: SC - Gulf Wars & a question mfgunter@fnc.fujitsu.com writes: << I've been reading the Roman recipe website and wondered if liquamen could be substituted with nuoc muam sauce? I know we've discussed stuff like this before. Gunthar >> I always sub Thai fish sauce or a similar Far Eastern fish sauce for "liquamen". I do not know how close actual manufacturing methods are to the Roman stuff but, IMHO, such a substitution is far more justified than water or broth. :-) Ras Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 18:10:43 -0700 From: Rob Baldassano <odla@best.com> Subject: RE: SC - Garum & Verjuice production sources? >Can anyone direct me to recipe/directions for Verjuice and garum? >niccolo difrancesco As for the Garum, there are recipes documented in Rosenbaum & Flowers translation of Apicius "The Roman Cookery Book", they include the fermented version that was made in mass production and a quick version you can make on your stove top in one afternoon. I no longer have a copy of the book, it was lent to me a couple of years ago when I did a course of Roman food at a feast, and I have since returned it to its owner. Euriol of Lothian [Submitted by: Marilyn Traber <margali@99main.com>] Subject: [Apicius] garum/liquamen Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 18:41:08 PST From: "Susan Hryckiewicz" <susanh99@hotmail.com> To: Apicius@onelist.com This gets down to language semantics, but there is a subtle difference in concept. Is ÒgarumÓ a translation of ÒliquamenÓ or a period equivalent term? Is it a term in current usage anywhere in the world? If it is a modern translation, WHY? Where did the word come from, and how? Any clues? Susan Hryckiewicz Selivia de l'Estoile, Lochac (Australia) Subject: [Apicius] garum Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:36:17 GMT From: Carol Dery <sr045@lamp.ac.uk> To: Apicius@onelist.com The ancient Greeks used a fish sauce called garos (not garon - this is the accusative case which is why it is not in the dictionary) from about the fifth century BC, and it is this that the Romans took over. Garum (Lat.) derives from garos (Gk. actually a type of fish). The Romans used the various types of fish sauce very much more than the Greeks ever did however, which is why not many people know about the Greek version. As regards the various terminology for Roman fish sauces, it goes like this: Garum is the name for the best quality fish sauce (garum sociorum is the very best of all - It was made in Spain from mackerel), but it is also used generically in the early empire. Liquamen was originally an inferior product to garum, but by the time of the late Empire (when Apicius' cookbook was being compiled), liquamen had largely replaced garum as a generic term for fish sauce. There is also something called muria, which is the pickle that salt fish was transported in. It could also be used to pickle other things as well. Then there is allec, which is a fish paste. The other three are all liquids. Carol Subject: [Apicius] Re: garum/liquamen Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 05:22:11 -0600 From: Bill Thayer <petworth@suba.com> To: Apicius@onelist.com Pliny (XXXI.xliii.93, direct local link to the passage online at http://www.ukans.edu/history/index/europe/ancient_rome/E/Roman/Texts/Pliny_the_ Elder/31*.html#93> is very mildly helpful, merely stating that _garum_ comes from some fish the Greeks call _garon_, although in his time the stuff was no longer produced from that fish. If this is true, it's unlikely to be _karon_ since _k_ and _g_ both existed as separate sounds and letters in both Greek and Latin. Also, garum doesn't involve shrimp, and Pliny is rather careful about differentiating between fish and other sea life: he's writing a natural history encyclopedia, after all. Varro unfortunately only refers to the word _garum_ (ix.66) to tell you that it has no plural because it's something sold by weight, i.e. not enumerable. BT Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 11:48:04 -0800 From: Lilinah biti-Anat <lilinah@grin.net> Subject: Re: SC - Re: Apicius site, some thoughts Aislinn C. C. wrote: >I have no idea if it is the same plant used by the Romans. Tannahill >gives an intriguing process for making liquamen in her book. Would >modern oyster sauce make a good substitute? Adamantius? I've never tasted actual Roman style liquamen, but have had various fish sauces from around 4 different Southeast Asian countries. I recommend Thai fish sauce (nam pla). Vietnamese fish sauce is a decent second. I REALLY didn't like the taste of Philippino fish sauce, nor of Chinese fish sauce. Personal taste. But i should think, knowing how they and liquamen are made, at least from reading books, that any of them would be closer to liquamen than oyster sauce, since it isn't made from fish, and has all sorts of other additives, whereas the Southeast Asian fish sauces are just little fish and salt, like liquamen. Anahita Gauri bint-Karim al-hakim al-Fassi Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 12:07:24 -0800 From: Lilinah biti-Anat <lilinah@grin.net> Subject: Re: SC - Re: Apicius site, some thoughts Iu'liana >aislinncc@mailcity.com writes: > >Would modern oyster sauce make a good substitute? Adamantius? > >I was wondering if Nuoc Nam Nhi would work. Yeah. That would be fine, as far as i can tell. That's Vietnamese fish sauce. Thai fish sauce is similar. Both much closer to liquamen than Chinese oyster sauce (has sugar and other stuff - i don't have a bottle on hand to list all other additives) Anahita Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 20:50:05 EST From: ChannonM@aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Re: Apicius site, some thoughts Garum or liquamen to me is a much more substantial sauce than the fish sauces so far mentioned, unless one of them is more substantial than the nuoc mam sauce I have seen and tasted. I prefer to use anchovy paste, which is simply anchovies and salt. For the various garum/liquamen sauces ie oxygarum,hydrogarum, oenogarum- I simply combine it with the appropriate liquid vinegar, water or wine respectively. There is a gentleman he is an Italian chef, operating a restaurant in Rome I believe) who regularly posts on the Apicius list and during a thread on this topic put it very well. I have discussed using his post with him and here it is, in its entirety, ...... go for it Stefan, this would be an excellent contribution to the Florilegium! (IMO)- Hauviette Marco Bernini writes--I am probably going to ignite some controversy here but I do not agree that Nuoc mam and garum are the same thing at all.Nuoc mam is basically a fish based soy sauce originally made by fermenting anchovies in brine. Today it is often made with concentrated extracts that are then diluted, the resulting sauce is very watery and quite like fishy soy sauce. Most eastern cuisines have a sauce of this sort; the chinese have fish soy, the thaiÕs also have a variant as do the Malays and so on. Garum or liquamen has many recipes according to who you read, it is alternately made from whole fish, fish livers or fish guts and blood depending on whoÕs description you read. This is then layered alternately with lots of salt and herbs of various sorts again depending on whoÕs recipe you use. The container is then sealed and left to macerate NOT ROT as is commonly thought, it is impossible for the contents to rot due to the large amount of salt present. What happens is that the fish liquefy over time as the coarse salt melts and a thick lumpy brine is formed. This is then strained either finely or coarsely depending on the use it is intended for My reasoning is based on the following: I am Roman, I was born in the city am 34 years old and live there today though I have lived much of my life in the UK. I am a restaurateur and chef and have an extensive knowledge of Italian cuisine as well as being trained in classical french, modern British, Chinese, Japanese and Thai. Italian regional cuisine is very ancient in its origins, many dishes that are eaten today in Rome on the tables of the ordinary citizens and in the Roman campagna (not the restaurants which barring a few exceptions are bastardized and atypical) bear a great resemblance to those eaten by the ordinary citizens of Rome two millennia ago. Certainly new ingredients have been added (most notably the tomato and chilli pepper) as they have been discovered over the centuries but the basic style of the food remains the same. The crux of the matter is this; if garum was indeed as essential an ingredient in Roman cuisine as we are told by ancient texts then it is very likely that it would remain in the Roman diet in some prominent form today (much as soy sauce and Nuoc mam being very ancient still feature prominently in the far east). The fact that Italy has no Nuoc mam type sauce today nor has it had in living memory leads me to conclude that garum cannot have been a sauce like nuoc mam or it would remain in use today; not just in Italy but in Spain, Greece and North Africa, it is simply impossible for such an important ingredient to have disappeared from all of these countries without trace. What does remain in all of these countries is an enormous production of anchovies and other Ôpesci azzurriÕ (sardines, mackerel etc.). These are produced in canned form via salting and then packing with olive oil and sometimes herbs and also as pureed form in tubes for simplified use in cooking. Anchovies are used extensively in mediterranean cuisine to impart salty ÔseaÕ flavour to food, they are sometimes used in stews and soups, often used in saut*ed clams and other seafood, they are used in salad dressings and chopped in salads and on top of pizzas, wrapped around olives and capers, put on hard boiled eggs and so on and so on. As you can see they are very important today. It is my opinion that garum is the ancestor of the salted anchovy whether whole, filleted, pureed or in herbs; at some point production changed to a less liquefied product, possibly due to reduced production period, faster transport or maybe just a change in tastes. Anyway, thatÕs my opinion for what its worth, accept it or not its up to you.But I will tell you one thing, try sprinkling nuoc mam on a endive salad and then making one using the recipe I suggest below. Bet you never use the nuoc mam again. (remember when using it as a dressing to add a olive oil and wine vinegar plus pepper to taste.) Below is a recipe from Gargilius Martialis 3rd C AD as published in the excellent book ÒA Cena da LuculloÓ by Ilaria Gozzini Giacosa (published in English as ÒA Taste of Ancient RomeÓ) plus a quick and clean variation that I have developed myself from a modern day Roman salad dressing. Garum (Gargilius Martialis 3C AD) Use fresh fatty fish e.g.. anchovies, sardines or mackerel. Dried aromatic herbs such as: dill, coriander, fennel, celery seed, mint, oregano and rosemary. Coarse sea salt Clean and wash the fish removing heads fins and guts if desired. (the guts impart a bitter flavour) Taking a large preserving or pickling jar (the wider the better) place a generous layer of herbs on the the bottom of the jar then place a layer of fish on the top (cutting the fish into sections if it is large) placing them fairly tightly packed. Over this add a layer of coarse sea salt (must be sea salt) about * inch thick! Repeat these three layers till you have filled the jar to the top. Let the container rest in the sun for seven days (this is the traditional way). Then mix the sauce daily for a further twenty days. After that time it becomes a liquid and can be filtered if necessary. Here is a quickish clean garum of my own: 6 tubes of anchovy paste, (or 12 small tins of anchovy fillets drained and liquidized) * teaspoon of each of the above herbs but fresh if possible. 1 clove of Garlic (crush it with the side of a knife) Pepper Good olive oil Wine vinegar Finely chop the herbs and place in a bowl. Add the anchovy paste, add the crushed garlic clove, ground black pepper (the quantity will dictate the ÔhotnessÕ of the garum) a little vinegar and the olive oil, mix well (in ablender if necessary) The resulting sauce should pour easily, if not add more oil or white wine if you like. Store in the fridge for a day before use and always shake well before adding to recipes. Use sparingly as it is salty and often replaces salt in recipes. Makes an excellent dressing for lettuce and rocket salads, the traditional Roman hors dÕoeuvre and is used in Rome today to dress ÒpuntarelleÓ a salad leaf from the dandelion family that has been eaten in and around Romefor more than 2,000 years.Enjoy! P.S. If you should keel over with food poisoning after trying the ancient recipe I deny any responsibility! :) Marco Berni Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 21:03:03 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy@asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Re: Apicius site, some thoughts Lilinah biti-Anat wrote: > Aislinn C. C. wrote: > >I have no idea if it is the same plant used by the Romans. Tannahill > >gives an intriguing process for making liquamen in her book. Would > >modern oyster sauce make a good substitute? Adamantius? > > I've never tasted actual Roman style liquamen, but have had various > fish sauces from around 4 different Southeast Asian countries. Definitely not modern oyster sauce. As it happens, I just happened to sample (one of the few things I was able to sample) actual garum/liquamen from Pliny's Historia Naturalis, and it was a light amber color, a bit like filtered apple juice, but with a more substantial mouth feel/body, and a definite anchovy taste. Yum! I ate mackerel guts! And liked it! The only harshness to it was in the saltiness, which is pretty much inevitable. If this was done right, it would seem to suggest that the fish is preserved from rotting by the salt, and broken down entirely by enzymatic action, unlike the processes that produce some of the Southeast Asian fish sauces, at least some of which involve lactic fermentation, as do things like sauerkraut. > I recommend Thai fish sauce (nam pla). Vietnamese fish sauce is a > decent second. I REALLY didn't like the taste of Philippino fish > sauce, nor of Chinese fish sauce. Personal taste. There are decent Philipino sauces, you need to watch for the ones that contain anchovies and salt, and avoid ones with vinegar, these are basically sauces that are artificially flavored to resemble the real thing. > But i should think, knowing how they and liquamen are made, at least > from reading books, that any of them would be closer to liquamen than > oyster sauce, since it isn't made from fish, and has all sorts of > other additives, whereas the Southeast Asian fish sauces are just > little fish and salt, like liquamen. Yep. Oyster sauce is oyster essence (reduced stock made from dried oysters), sugar, cornstarch, sometimes some caramel coloring, sometimes soy sauce. The best oyster sauces are the ones for which oysters or oyster essence are the first ingredient listed. Adamantius Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 21:44:14 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy@asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Re: Apicius site, some thoughts ChannonM@aol.com wrote: > What happens is that the fish liquefy over time as the coarse salt melts and > a thick lumpy brine is formed. This is then strained either finely or > coarsely depending on the use it is intended for According to Pliny (admittedly only one source) clear brine (hence the term liquamen) is siphoned off from the solids, which are used as an entirely different product called halec. > Italian regional cuisine is very ancient in its origins, many dishes that are > eaten today in Rome on the tables of the ordinary citizens and in the Roman > campagna (not the restaurants which barring a few exceptions are bastardized > and atypical) bear a great resemblance to those eaten by the ordinary > citizens of Rome two millennia ago. Certainly new ingredients have been > added (mostnotably the tomato and chilli pepper) as they have been discovered > over the > centuries but the basic style of the food remains the same. The crux of the > matter is this; if garum was indeed as essential an ingredient in Roman > cuisine > as we are told by ancient texts then it is very likely that it would remain > in the Roman diet in some prominent form today (much as soy sauce and Nuoc mam > being very ancient still feature prominently in the far east). The fact that > Italy has no Nuoc mam type sauce today nor has it had in living memory leads > me to conclude that garum cannot have been a sauce like nuoc mam or it would > remain in use today; not just in Italy but in Spain, Greece and North > Africa,it is simply impossible for such an important ingredient to have > disappeared from all of these countries without trace. Actually, it hasn't. One very halec-like paste that is very common in the south of France is pissalat. Another consideration is that as Rome is not really a seaport, it's unlikely a center of manufacture for garum would develop there. On the Mediterranean coastlines of what are now Spain, France, Italy and Greece, you'll find what seem to be remains of garum factories. I wonder if there was some kind of climactic or other shift in the migrations of some of the fish traditionally used in the manufacture of liquamen, which might explain why the fish so prepared seemed to be growing smaller over time, leading perhaps to the modern salted anchovy. Which, by the way, is not necessarily a moist product packed in oil, you can still find them in barrels in France, whole, dry, and packed in salt. Many recipes written before the 1960s have complete instructions on how to desalt and fillet anchovies. Other possibilities might include a dearth of garum-suitable fish, due to overfishing, and then there was this thing called the Fall of The Roman Empire. Modern citizens of Rome also don't speak Latin, wear togas, or demand that Carthage be destroyed. That doesn't mean they never did these things. This is simply an area where there's been sufficient change that a thread of cultural identity has been cut. Just as there are modern languages closer in pronunciation and form to Latin than modern Italian, there are other places that used to be part of the Roman world that probably have closer ties to the culture of ancient Rome than Rome itself now does, some even that have never been successively invaded and ruled by Visigoths, Lombards and Normans. Oh, my! One place, by the way, that garum appears to have survived into the early Middle Ages at least is Byzantium. There's a wonderfully plaintive passage in the writings of Luidprandt, Bishop of Cremona (vaguely Carolingian) concerning his treatment as a not-especially-welcome envoy to the Byzantine Court. He arrived to escort a Byzantine princess back north to wed the Holy Roman/Frankish emperor, and was, among other indignities, left standing outside the gates in the rain for several days. Finally he was allowed into the city, and was fed what may have been a typical Byzantine upper-class meal. He describes it as "...foul and stinking, soused in oil like some drunkard's slops, and the whole sprinkled with some vile fishy liquid." This would have been ~9th-10th centuries C.E. Adamantius Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 18:52:37 -0800 From: Lilinah biti-Anat <lilinah@grin.net> Subject: Re: SC - Re: Apicius site, some thoughts Hauviette posted a long and interesting message: >Garum or liquamen to me is a much more substantial sauce than the fish sauces >so far mentioned, unless one of them is more substantial than the nuoc mam >sauce I have seen and tasted. I prefer to use anchovy paste... (snip) and she includes a message from Marco Bernini: >--I am probably going to ignite some controversy here but I do not agree that >Nuoc mam and garum are the same thing at all.Nuoc mam is basically a fish >based soy sauce originally made by fermenting anchovies in brine. Today it >is often made with concentrated extracts that arethen diluted, the resulting >sauce is very watery and quite like fishy soy sauce. Well, i have to disagree with Mr. Bernini's comment. Having lived in Southeast Asia and also eaten and cooked a great deal of Southeast Asian food in America, Southeast Asian fish sauces are not like "fishy soy sauce". They are made by heavily salting small fish, letting them stand from some time (i'm not sure for how long), then straining the resultant mess, errr, mass. The resultant liquid is fish sauce. There's no soy sauce in any i've had. And as far as i know, the process producing soy sauce is different from that producing fish sauce, although i could be under-informed... Mr. Bernini describes the process: >And at least some liquamen/garum recipes seem to indicate a similar >procedure. Garum or liquamen has many recipes according to who you read, >it is alternately made from whole fish, fish livers or fish guts and blood >depending on whoís description you read. This is then layered alternately >with lots of salt and herbs of various sorts again depending on whoís recipe >you use. The container is then sealed and left to macerate NOT ROT as is >commonly thought, it is impossible for the contents to rot due to the large >amount of salt present. >What happens is that the fish liquefy over time as the coarse salt melts and >a thick lumpy brine is formed. This is then strained either finely or >coarsely depending on the use it is intended for What i'm not certain of is: how different is the liquid from this stuff, finely strained, is from fish sauce? How different is the process of producing Southeast Asian fish sauce from that of producing liquamen/garum? I've watched the beginnings of making some shrimp paste in an Indonesian village (strictly for local use), and it was basically layering tiny shrimp with salt and letting it stand, although i don't know if there was some sort of "starter" (along the lines of mother of vinegar, or yeast, or using yogurt to start a new batch) or something was introduced later in the process... as Mr. Bernini continues: >My reasoning is based on the following: >I am Roman, I was born in the city am 34 years old and live there today... (snip) >The crux of the >matter is this; if garum was indeed as essential an ingredient in Roman >cuisine as we are told by ancient texts then it is very likely that it would >remain in the Roman diet in some prominent form today (much as soy sauce >and Nuoc mam being very ancient still feature prominently in the far east). >The fact that Italy has no Nuoc mam type sauce today nor has it had in living >memory leads me to conclude that garum cannot have been a sauce like nuoc >mam or it would remain in use today; not just in Italy but in Spain, >Greece and >North Africa,it is simply impossible for such an important ingredient to have >disappeared from all of these countries without trace. Well, i don't agree with him here. After reading enough old cookbooks, it seems to me that some things have disappeared from cuisines, while new things have become popular. I don't think it can be assumed that if something was important in the Roman Empire it would necessarily survive virtually unchanged for 1500 years. Maybe it did, but it seems to me highly likely that time did not stand still even in isolated Italian country villages. However, i like anchovies on my pizza and in my Caesar salad (yeah, I know, not Italian). And I have no objection to anchovy paste. So if anchovy paste is like liquamen/garum, I can live with that. So, Master Adamantius, since you've tasted a liquamen made the old Roman way, how different is it from fish sauce? How different from liquified anchovy paste? Would a blend of the two in any way approximate it, or would that be far too different? (I don't think I'm ready to keep a jar of fish and salt layered in my kitchen, although possibly some day...) Anahita Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 07:06:04 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy@asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Re: Apicius site, some thoughts Lilinah biti-Anat wrote: > Well, i have to disagree with Mr. Bernini's comment. Having lived in > Southeast Asia and also eaten and cooked a great deal of Southeast > Asian food in America, Southeast Asian fish sauces are not like > "fishy soy sauce". They are made by heavily salting small fish, > letting them stand from some time (i'm not sure for how long), then > straining the resultant mess, errr, mass. The resultant liquid is > fish sauce. There's no soy sauce in any i've had. And as far as i > know, the process producing soy sauce is different from that > producing fish sauce, although i could be under-informed... The process is different, to say the least. Soybeans are boiled, drained, mashed and formed into cakes, which are then left in a dark place to grow a particular mold (as you mention in another context, a starter may be added) in a process pretty similar to that used for making sake. The mold-converted cakes are then steeped several times to produce different grades of soy sauce, and some people eat the leftover cakes, which are believed to be the cause of the extremely high rate of stomach cancer in populations where soy sauce is made locally. Never mind that so many Asians, even now, are chain smokers. But this is also, I believe, the source of Charles Perry's theory that murri may be a carcinogen, or contain carcinogens, because soy sauce is far, far more like murri than like Asian fish sauce. > Mr. Bernini describes the process: > >And at least some liquamen/garum recipes seem to indicate a similar > >procedure. Garum or liquamen has many recipes according to who you read, > >it is alternately made from whole fish, fish livers or fish guts and blood > >depending on whoís description you read. This is then layered alternately > >with lots of salt and herbs of various sorts again depending on whoís recipe > >you use. So, any claims anybody may make about garum are bound to be mostly inaccurate because they won't apply across the board, while any statements that _I_ may make, on the other hand, are accurate because of common factors like salt...according to whose recipe you use? I don't mean to wrong the man, but this seems a little too pat. > > The container is then sealed and left to macerate NOT ROT as is > >commonly thought, it is impossible for the contents to rot due to the large > >amount of salt present. > >What happens is that the fish liquefy over time as the coarse salt melts and > >a thick lumpy brine is formed. And this is due not to the salt, either, but to the presence of enzymes in great amounts in the fish entrails, and to a lesser extent in the muscle itself (Some Philipino versions of bagoong, I think it's called, are made with gutted fish: they'd likely be the source of the idea that these sauces are supposed to be sour as well as salty and fishy). > What i'm not certain of is: how different is the liquid from this > stuff, finely strained, is from fish sauce? How different is the > process of producing Southeast Asian fish sauce from that of > producing liquamen/garum? According to some authorities, not much, provided there's enough salt to prevent lactic fermentation, which does occur in some Asian fish sauces, but not in all. > I've watched the beginnings of making some shrimp paste in an > Indonesian village (strictly for local use), and it was basically > layering tiny shrimp with salt and letting it stand, although i don't > know if there was some sort of "starter" (along the lines of mother > of vinegar, or yeast, or using yogurt to start a new batch) or > something was introduced later in the process... No starter, AFAIK. I've seen this shrimp paste in jars in my neighborhood, in several forms, some made from dried shrimp, producing a mysterious purplish paste, others grey or nearly white, depending on differences in the process according to different regional traditions. > After reading enough old > cookbooks, it seems to me that some things have disappeared from > cuisines, while new things have become popular. I don't think it can > be assumed that if something was important in the Roman Empire it > would necessarily survive virtually unchanged for 1500 years. Maybe > it did, but it seems to me highly likely that time did not stand > still even in isolated Italian country villages. Ya think? ; ) As I said, the toga, real Latin, and a dislike for Certain North African Empires comes to mind as social factors that have simply become extinct. I'm sure there are other culinary examples that come to mind: certain of the wine preparations, for example, the habit of boiling and pureeing vegetables only to thicken them again into custards, probably the extensive use of pennyroyal. I'm sure there are others. > However, i like anchovies on my pizza and in my Caesar salad (yeah, i > know, not Italian). Mexican or Italian descent, however. > And i have no objection to anchovy paste. So if > anchovy paste is like liquamen/garum, i can live with that. > > So, Master Adamantius, since you've tasted a liquamen made the old > Roman way, how different is it from fish sauce? How different from > liquified anchovy paste? Would a blend of the two in any way > approximate it, or would that be far too different? Real garum seems to taste pretty close to anchovy paste, but the color and texture aren't even close, and the aroma of either is actually rather mild compared to what you might expect. I guess it would depend on your use. What I tasted was a clear yellowish-to-amber liquid, with a body or "mouth feel" like ale; it's as if it had a high enough specific gravity you could taste it -- it's a bit heavier than the SE Asian fish sauces I'm familiar with. A slight oiliness, but not much -- I assume this is natural fish oil. Garum was always thought to be an extremely healthy food product, provided you're not a tunny or a mackerel... . It definitely tasted of anchovies, and then so did the nam pla that was placed alongside it for comparison, but they weren't the same. I think perhaps the trace of oil was missing from the nam pla. Maybe if one were to blenderize a can of anchovies in oil in nam pla or another non-vinegar-based fish sauce, then let the solids settle out, that'd be a closer approximation. I'm also a bit surprised that some of the "quick" boiled versions haven't been experimented with more. I think it's what Flower and Rosenbaum used for their various trials of Roman recipes. Adamantius <the end> Edited by Mark S. Harris garum-msg 16