food-sources-msg - 1/31/08
Modern sources for unusual medieval meats and other foods.
NOTE: See also the files: exotic-meats-msg, drying-foods-msg, organ-meats-msg,
eels-msg, butchering-msg, marrow-msg, food-seasons-msg, merch-spices-msg.
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NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that
I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some
messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium.
These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with
seperate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes
extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were
removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I
make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the
individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these
messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this
time. If information is published from these messages, please give
credit to the orignator(s).
Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
mark.s.harris at motorola.com stefan at florilegium.org
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From: Uduido at aol.com
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 22:21:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SC - Swan sources
<< Where would you get peacock? >>
Peacock and swan chicks (sic) can be obtained from any place that sells fancy
poultry chicks for farm and hobbyist. Game around here is never a problem for
us. I just put out the call as it were. I have a goose resideing in my
freezer this very moment waiting for his final resting place on high table.
The best way if you don't have the space to raise them yourself is to beg,
beg, beg.This usually causes hunter type friends to be more than
generous..........<smiling....remembering the time I did a whole deer at the
campfire at Pensic....:-))
Lord Ras
From: Annejke at prodigy.com (MS MARTHA L WALLENHORST)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:38:17, -0500
Subject: SC - swans, eel and peacocks, oh
You can get peacock from a butcher's outlet in Colorado. I don't
have the address handy but they do carry all forms of pea-fowl,
venison, swan, etc. I don't know if they are on line or not but when
I get a pea-fowl I simply go to the local butcher who orders it as I
need it, skined, cleaned, skin intact for redressing. Remember when
doing a peacock that it needs to roast slowly for many, many hours in
rose water and tightly covered. It is quite wonderful. If I
remember correctly The last time I bought one it was $25 for the bird
and $5 for cold shipping UPS.
Annejke
From: "Sue Wensel" <swensel at brandegee.lm.com>
Date: 18 Apr 1997 11:22:39 -0500
Subject: Re(2): SC - peacocks and eels
> At 10:18 PM 4/17/97 -0600, Stefan li Rous wrote, quoting me:
> >1. A peacock is a game bird, and cooks differently than a chicken.
> >2. It was a peaCOCK, not a peaHEN, and took longer to cook because of this.
> >>>>>>
> >Please explain these two points to new cook. If the peacock and the
> >chicken are the same size, why would they cook differently?
>
> It is my understanding that game birds (pheasant, for example) take much
> longer to cook than your average off-the-shelf chicken. Also, unless spiced
> some way (like roasted in rose water, as someone else suggested), you will
> get a very "gamey" flavor from the meat.
In my experience growing up in a hunting household, what generally told how
gamey the meat was was the competence of the person who gutted it. If they
were poor, the meat was so bad as to be almost uneatable (but never waste
meat!). If they were average, the meat was "gamey." If they were good, then
the meat tasted wonderful, and even avowed non-game eaters loved it. The
difference was in how the entrails were handled.
Difference 1: Good field-dressing ties off the urethra *before* doing
anything else. This means getting a little messy, but it makes for better
meat if it has not been in contact with urine. The meat directly in contact
is really unfit for human consumption, and the remaining meat around the
cavity tastes gamey.
Difference 2: The entrails are handled quite carefully. Slitting the skin is
done carefully -- to make sure that the peritoneum (or whatever lines the
abdomen) is the only thing slit/there are no nicks in the entrails.
Difference 3: Field dressing is done immediately after killing, not a half
hour to an hour after the kill when the animal is home.
Another factor in the taste of game meat is how it is cooked. Remember, most
game meat is significantly leaner than domestic animals. Therefore they need
to be cooked *slowly* in a moist environment (roast in covered pan with water,
simmer in a stew, etc.). Birds tend to do better skinned. This will give you
quite good tasting, moist, non-gamey meat.
Derdriu
(whose family insisted that everyone -- guys and gals -- hunt for at least one
year to decide if we liked it or not)
swensel at brandegee.lm.com
From: Aldyth at aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:56:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SC - Re: SC game meat (was peacock and eels)
In a message dated 97-04-18 12:08:21 EDT, Christi writes:
<< I have a question on this. I agree with the dressing out theory. But
doesn't it also depend on what the animal ate? I have had venison that
survived on mostly sage, and venison that was ranch raised and there was
a definite difference in flavor. I was told that meat that was wild was
more "gamey" due to their diet. Both of these animals were killed,
gutted and prepared by the same individuals.>>
My lord husband and I have hunted for 20 years. While I haven't noticed it
in game birds per se, I have noticed a difference in taste in big game (elk,
deer, moose.) depending on where it was harvested and what it was eating. I
learned it the hard way when early on we took our game to a processor. The
deer we left was about 200 pounds field dressed, and had been placidly
feeding on wheat fields for its life. The deer we received was pre saged.
From then on we processed our own meat completely. I have never had a
problem with *funny* tasting game since then.
Aldyth
Aldyth at aol.com
From: "Sue Wensel" <swensel at brandegee.lm.com>
Date: 18 Apr 1997 13:06:01 -0500
Subject: SC - Game (y) meats
I wrote:
> >In my experience growing up in a hunting household, what generally told how
> >gamey the meat was was the competence of the person who gutted it. If they
> >were poor, the meat was so bad as to be almost uneatable (but never waste
> >meat!). If they were average, the meat was "gamey." If they were good, then
> >the meat tasted wonderful, and even avowed non-game eaters loved it. The
> >difference was in how the entrails were handled.
<snip>
To which Christi asked:
> I have a question on this. I agree with the dressing out theory. But
> doesn't it also depend on what the animal ate? I have had venison that
> survived on mostly sage, and venison that was ranch raised and there was
> a definite difference in flavor. I was told that meat that was wild was
> more "gamey" due to their diet. Both of these animals were killed,
> gutted and prepared by the same individuals.
In all honesty, the only time I have had "gamey" meat was when my brother and
one of my father's friends had dressed the animal (this stands for venison,
rabbit, squirrel, fowl -- i.e. most legally hunted game in PA). My dad
insisted that the difference was in how the entrails were handled.
In addition, we also raised domestic rabbits. If the entrails were not
handled carefully (like the bladder leaked), the result was "gamey" meat.
Now the difference in flavor (I set this aside from gamey-ness, which is
texture and flavor) is linked to how the animal ate while alive. I adore beef
raised on corn and tolerate beef raised on food supplements. Likewise
chicken. I suspect the time of year the animal was killed may affect the
flavor of the meat because the available diet and fat reserves change during
the year.
Finally, with a given of the different flavors imparted by breed of cattle
(Angus vs. anything else -- I am at a loss for other beef cattle breeds),
different types of deer may affect flavor.
I have a story about a college friend who declared one day that he hated deer
meat because it was so gamey. I told him I could fix deer meat that he would
love; he doubted it. A week or so later, I invited him over to my place to
have venison (he said he never tried it). After eating, he raved about how
that was the best meat he had ever had and wanted to know where I bought it.
I told him, truthfully, that my parents sent it to me. The following Monday,
he was telling mutual friends about how great venison was and didn't
understand why they were rolling on the floor. He asked me, and I explained
that venison was another name for deer meat, but I wanted him to try it with
no preconceived notions of how it should taste. He wanted to know when I was
cooking it again so he could invite himself to dinner.
My mother tells a story about one of her sister-in-laws who came to dinner,
not knowing what was on the menu. After dinner, she raved about the meal. My
mother said, "I thought you didn't like deer meat." She replied, "Oh, I
thought the meat tasted a little off."
Derdriu
swensel at brandegee.lm.com
From: Uduido at aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:30:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SC - Hunters
<< Do you have to offer free feasts to all the hunters around you? >>
Many of my friends are hunters and since I am somewhat "noted" for my ways
with game, I seem to have no trouble finding it. Usually about once a month
someone leaves me something at work or drops it off on the porch or whatever.
The same is true with fisherman that I know. Recently I recieved several
fresh tuna steaks as a "gift" from one of my customers. Most people would
have broiled them up but I thought the first thing that I saw them...."Ah ha!
Apicius!". And spent the evening redacting 3 recipes for tuna from Apicius'
cookbook.
Just tell everyone about your hobby! Litterally. Throughout the day many of
the customers in the store ask me if I'm working on any new food for that
"history" group.
The results can pay off in other ways also. 2 weeks ago I was asked to be a
"visiting chef" at Le Jeune Chef, subject: An Authentic Medieval Feast";
price to be: $75.00/per person; Budget: quote "what-ever I need". This
particular restaurant , which is associated with the Pennsylvania College of
Technology (a subsidiary of Penn State University), has won several awards
including a listing in the Wine Spectator's Best Restaurants in America.
So talk, cook, talk, cook and share your best. All things will fall into
place if you are truly a serious student. Time and patience are also a big
plus. This is equally true for any other endeavor. MHO for "bragging"
somewhat but I think that this is a perfect example of how the SCA through
encouraging research and excellence can have a unique and lasting impact on
many non-SCA areas of our lives.
Lord Ras
From: Uduido at aol.com
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 08:49:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: SC - itty-bitty fish recipes.
<< I'm not sure where I would find the small fish for the whitebait pancake.
I'm not about to go out and buy a bag of minnows at a nearby bait shop
for this. >>
Why not? That's exactly what the Frugal Gourmet reccommends (as did I) when
doing a recipe for deep-fried baitfish. The farming of fish is no different
baitfish than it is for trout or catfish or any other farmed fish. And fish
is fish. :-) Period ingredients are often times found at locations other than
your local supermarket , and part of the fun of Middle Cookery is trying to
dig up sources for the ingredients.
I often find ingredients in the most unusual places. For example, when I did
my Middle Eastern Feast, none of the locals would sell me the 2 goats I
needed and the supermarket did not carry goat meat. I went to a live stock
auction and bought them there for half the price that the "pet" breeders were
asking. We raised them for 2 months, milking everyday. We made feta cheese
for the feast from the milk, classes in butchering , hide tanning, knife
handles from bones, and the making of a water bag from the stomach. Very
informative!. :-) Rabbits can often be had for as little as $2.00 a piece
from area kids that raise them as pets. (Fat, juicy and tender! :-)) Special
treats such as dandelion buds can be gathering , blanched and frozen for use
at a later feast when they are in season. And there is no lack of people
around here who need someone to get those "damn" pidgeons out of the attic.
Lord Ras
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 08:55:47 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Elizabeth B. Naime" <elspeth at falcon.cc.ukans.edu>
To: Multiple recipients of list <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: RE: old breeds and period cooking - chickens and eggs
> This also means that modern chickens, for example, do not give period
> flavor. Animals which get a lot of exercise are more flavorful (we might
> even say strong in taste) than what we have now. So cooking them for a
> couple of days will produce a bland result, with the meat almost cooked to
> nothing. A elderly, tough old hen or rooster makes a very poor roasting
> bird, but is far better for stew or soup.
Hmm, also the diet of period chickens was probably quite different than
that of today's scientifically raised poultry. Not to denigrate the
modern hen or her diet -- that would be disloyal, since my grandfather
wrote _The Scientific Feeding Of Chickens_ and was one of the researchers
who made "a chicken in every pot" a reality! -- but free-ranging poultry
pick up a lot of worms and caterpillars and STUFF to supplement their
chicken feed.
One of the places you can find modern chicken breeds getting more
excercise and a more varied diet is any of those country homes with an
"eggs for sale" sign at the roadside. As a fan of fresh eggs, I'll attest
that eggs from free-ranging or at least yard-wandering chickens are not
like store bought eggs. The yolks are much darker, and the taste is
richer -- I believe this is due more to diet than egg age. And ya know, a
hen doesn't lay forever. In addition to using these sorts of eggs for
period egg recipies, you MIGHT ask a country egg person if they'd ever
consider selling an old chicken. Still a modern breed, but the excercise
and diet are probably more nearly period.
Elspeth <elspeth at falcon.cc.ukans.edu>
From: "Nancy R. Mollette" <NRMOLL00 at UKCC.UKY.EDU>
To: Lord Stefan
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 97 12:36:25 EDT
Subject: marrow and suet
Good afternoon!
Your easiest and least expensive source for marrow would be
to order beef bones from a meat packer...tell them you're making soup, and have
them cut length-wise for easy removal.
Suet is harder to find; but in essence, suet is to beef fat as lard is to pork
fat....the easiest and most hygenic way might be to render out your own, in
which case, you could probably order the kidney fat of the cow you got the
bones from.
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:00:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: Uduido at aol.com
Subject: SC - Bone Marrow
<< does anyone have any suggestion on getting bone marrow? Or even suet? >>
Bone marrow is usually not available by itself. However, any good supermarket
usually has marrow bones for sale from the marrow can be extracted. Also a
quick glance through your yellow pages will probably show several butcher
and/or meat shops. If you call them and ask they will most certainly provide
you with all the marrow bones you could want at about 1/3 the cost of the
market.
A hint> have your meat cutter saw the bones into 2 or 3 inch section or split
them for you. This will save a lot of anguish in the extraction process. Like
anything else substitution of other things may created a tasty dish, but you
will definantly not get the same flavor, texture or apperance that using
marrow provides for.
Suet is for the most part available anywhere there is meat being sold. Be
sure to specify that you want it for "human" consumption as often times suet
is specifically offered for sale for bird feeders. That type often times has
bits of flesh and blood in it or extraneous matter that would make it
somewhat unsuitable for human consumption without extensive pre-preperation..
Lord Ras
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:34:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: rousseau at scn.org (Anne-Marie Rousseau)
Subject: SC - Sources for medieval foodstuffs
Hi all from Anne-Marie.
Looking for medieval foodstuffs is always a fun challenge. Especially
when you are looking for provisions for a whole barony! We are blessed
here in Madrone (Seattle) with a GREAT farmers market, but here's some
suggestions for the rest of you poor saps :)...
- --for produce, try and contact your local farmers market or produce
stand. If they know you are gonna want three cases of mushrooms, they
will have them for you. I have also done this with our local regular
grocery store, when I needed a large number of leeks, out of season. They
special ordered them for me.
- --for bread, try and contact your local bakery. Even middle america has
"specialty" bread bakers. We contact "a la francaise" and ask for a pile
of day olds. Still WAY better than anything you can get at the regular
store. And cheap!! :D
--for spices, we go with WorldSPice. Tony is a gem, and will make up
poudre forte to my own specifications, and grind it for me. Hey, he does
it all the time for the curry people, why not me?! Fresh spices from him
cost less than the grocery store ones, and are so fresh you use 1/2 to
1/3 as much, for further cost savings.
- --for meat, we go with one of the many family owned butchers here in
town. As has been said before, they will cut it anyway I like, given
enough notice. This is also true for my local grocer, again, with enough
notice, but I like to subsidize the local mom and pop shops.
- --for dairy, we contact a local dairy and get stuff at wholesale. Eggs
and butter, as well as cream and milk.
- -- we do use Costco, but I personally find the quality much much higher
from the little local guys.
- --Rosewater, dried favas, pomegranite syrup, etc come from our local
Middle Eastern grocer. The rosewater is about $3 for 250 mls, WAY cheaper
than the little old stale bottles you get at the liquour store.
If you read the above, you probably noticed a theme. Local! That in
itself is a pretty medieval concept...sure they shipped stuff around, but
if it wasn't in season, they likely didn't eat it. A fact lost on many of
our supermarket-shopping, meat in a plastic container, milk in a carton
folks.
- --Anne-Marie, who finds that local purveyors are usually so intrigued
with why you're buying so many leeks, they end up giving you a discount!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Anne-Marie Rousseau
rousseau at scn.org
Seattle, Washington
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 13:36:52 -0400
From: marilyn traber <margali at 99main.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #258
Uduido at aol.com wrote:
>My only regret is that the caul was unavailable. My butcher assures me that he
>can get it if I order early enough in advance.
>
> Lord Ras
I cheat, i get the really cheap bacon with very little meat, and if
teased just right you can make a sort of net out of it, that for
crespinettes and small applications works ok
margali
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 13:58:05 -0700