fd-sumpt-laws-msg - 10/8/08 Medieval food sumptuary laws. Conspicuous consumption. NOTE: See also the files: Pearls-Law-art, p-sumpt-laws-msg, smptuary-laws-lnks, fashion-msg, med-law-art, Dresng-t-Dish-art, entertaing-fds-art, gilded-food-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 10:18:38 -0400 From: Micheal Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sumptuary laws on food To: Cooks within the SCA > In the "coffyns" thread Gisele commented: >> Can't check references on England's sumptuary laws, but the great pie >> was a fine way to get around restrictions on the number of dishes - >> conspicuous consumption being very popular, especially for the >> merchant class primarily affected by them. > Oh? What sumptuary laws on foods? I've heard of the sumptuary laws on > clothing, and I believe, comments on certain foods being appropriate for > the noble classes but not for peasants, and vice-versa, but I wasn't aware > of sumptuary laws on the number of dishes which could be served. > > More details, please. When and where were these restrictions/laws? Can you > quote the exact laws? Anyone? > > Stefan Preliminary look found this by looking for Sumptuary laws. Sorry not much really but does point towards Sumptuary food laws. http://www.yesnet.yk.ca/schools/projects/middleages/sumptuary/sumptuary.html In those day when you had company over for a meal you had to serve a specified number of courses depending on their class in the feudal system. If you were inviting a high church official to dinner, such as a cardinal, you would have to serve 9 courses. For guests such as bishops, archbishops, or counts you had to serve 7 courses. An ordinary government official could have just 6 courses. So if this is correct a great pie would get around this in that it has several full courses within one. Da Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:03:40 -0800 (PST) From: Huette von Ahrens Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sumptuary laws on food To: Cooks within the SCA > So if this is correct a great pie would get around this in that it has > several full courses within one. > > Da It might if you are thinking nutritionally. However, if you were noble enough to be entertaining a cardinal, I doubt if you would want to cut corners like that. Churchmen were usually very conscious of their position and might take offence if you offered only 6 or 7 courses when they were deserving of 9. Offending churchmen meant that you might not get that dispensation that you were looking for. This kind of sumptuary law, if it is correct, appears to be aimed at the nobility and not the lower classes, IMHO. Huette Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 20:25:24 -0800 (PST) From: Marcus Loidolt Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re:Sca-cooks Digest, Vol 21, Issue 125 To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org --- Micheal wrote: > Preliminary look found this by looking for > Sumptuary laws. Sorry not much > really but does point towards Sumptuary food laws. > http://www.yesnet.yk.ca/schools/projects/middleages/sumptuary/ sumptuary.html I'm sorry to say when I looked at this site, I saw such holes that I might drive a twenty mule team train through. The great generalizations and blanket statements just scathe me. and the 17th century shoes just took me over the top! I will say that I don't know as Churchmen be they high or low are any more prone to noticing or not noticing their due than any layperson in like rank, and apt to do a lot less damage in retaliation! Johann Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 19:28:12 -0800 (PST) From: she not Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: sumptuary laws To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org >>> http://www.yesnet.yk.ca/schools/projects/middleages/sumptuary/sumptuary.html It might if you are thinking nutritionally. However, if you were noble enough to be entertaining a cardinal, I doubt if you would want to cut corners like that. Churchmen were usually very conscious of their position and might take offence if you offered only 6 or 7 courses when they were deserving of 9. ...This kind of sumptuary law, if it is correct, appears to be aimed at the nobility and not the lower classes, IMHO. Huette <<< Sumptuary laws were enacted to limit conspicuous consumption and to protect the privileges of the nobility. (Clothes makyth man and all that) Thus they were often specifically aimed at merchants and other commoners who were able to spend as much or more than the privileged class they imitated. The point of getting around sumptuary laws wasn't "cutting corners", but finding ways to get away with MORE than the law allowed- hence the grete pye, which comprised a whole course in one allowable (arguably- and boy was it argued!) dish. Many areas hired persons to check ornamentation, colors, etc. on festival days to make sure the wearer had no more than he or she was entitled to- some would even clip off illegal buttons on the spot! The defense was often spirited, ingenious and amusing. Reading the resulting legal proceedings is a good way to document specific fashions in time/place, btw. The collected Medici letters have several interesting food-related bits: one description of a wedding ca 1480s includes the usual mind-boggling list of foodstuffs brought in for it, makes several approving comments on the ostentatious "modesty" of the meals served, adding "and there was never more than one roast." (in a course). As the city's leading family, the medici were being praised for restricting themselves to display appropriate for the commoners they were in comparison to less powerful and more vulgar houses. gisele Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 18:37:12 +0000 (GMT) From: emilio szabo Subject: [Sca-cooks] Italian sumptuary laws / turkey 1559 To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Googling for Giambonino da Cremona viz. Iamboninus Cremonensis, I stumbled upon a 700 page volume on Italian sumptuary laws including many source texts. The laws cover the time span from the XIIIth to the XVIth century. The introduction is in Italian, the sources are written in Latin and italian: http://www.archivi.beniculturali.it/DGA-free/Fonti/Fonti_XLI.pdf I haven't had the time to examine the texts. However, searching for "mangiare" I found a passage from 1559, where there is a regulation on how to use turkeys (galline d'India) and Blancmanger (mangiare biancho) in wedding feasts. The quotation might add to our picture of the spread of turkey in 16th century cuisine. (For those interested in the Italian text: It is on page 337 of the book, and at PDF-number 369.) I am sure, there is more of it, but I must leave it to other readers. Emilio Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 19:43:10 +0000 (GMT) From: emilio szabo Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Italian sumptuary laws / turkey 1559 To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org <<< There is a book that goes into the turkey in Italy. It's by Sabine Eiche. In English the title is Presenting the Turkey. Really good selection of artwork, inc. pottery and paintings. http://members.shaw.ca/seiche/pubs.html Johnna >>> Thanks much! The author, Sabine Eiche writes on her site, that she might come up with an interesting cookbook: " ... I have spent years reading the Della Rovere?s personal correspondence to learn as much as possible about the private life and character of each duke and his family members. An insider?s view, I decided, was essential for understanding their ambitions and intentions, and for evaluating their achievements. Occasionally the letters lured me down unexpected byways?as happened with the turkey, "stranger than anything an artist could ever imagine drawing." That excursion resulted in an article and a book on the arrival and fate of the New World turkey in Europe. The letters also sparked an interest in food history. The Della Rovere never tired of discussing their health and diet, and the regular references to gifts of food "figs, cheeses, and exceptionally good fruits and vegetables" reminded me of the extent to which their lives were synchronized with the cycles of the year, resulting in a natural harmony that we, in modern times, have sacrificed for convenience. The lessons learned from their letters will form the basis of a future cookbook." BTW, there is another 1100 page volume on sumptuary laws. While the first one I sent is about the region Emilia Romagna, this one is about Umbria. http://www.archivi.beniculturali.it/DGA-free/Fonti/Fonti_XLIII.pdf There is a glossary (with food entries like torta, sfogliato) and references to the sources. Emilio Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 13:14:36 -0700 From: David Walddon Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Italian sumptuary laws / turkey 1559 To: Cooks within the SCA If you have access to Dissertation Services you should also check out "Sumptuary Legislation in Renaissance Florence (Italy)" by Ronald Eug Rainey. Lots of interesting stuff in his dissertation. I have browsed through it for specifics and for the great sources, but have not had time to read the whole thing. Eduardo Edited by Mark S. Harris fd-sumpt-laws-msg 5 of 5