fasts-msg - 12/21/04
Fasts and fastdays. Food restrictions, voluntary and involuntary, Lenten food restrictions.
NOTE: See also the files: vegetarian-msg, almond-milk-msg, fish-msg, seafood-msg, religion-msg, holidays-msg.
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Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 09:11:12 -0500
From: margali <margali at 99main.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Butter in Lent...?
> There were also indulgences, which allowed one to consume foodstuffs
> that were otherwise forbidden. One Spanish recipe, which I
> have seen and cannot for the life of me locate, mentions that
> such-and-such a recipe containing dairy is good for Lent, if you have
> an indulgence. And isn't there a "Butter Tower" on some French
> cathedral, said to have been financed by the sale of indulgences to
> eat butter in Lent?
>
> Lady Brighid ni Chiarain of Tethba
> Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom
> mka Robin Carroll-Mann *** harper at idt.net
Yes, there is a 'butter tower', somewhere i have a snapshot of it from a
vacation I took a number of years ago. There are also dietary easements
that are not exactly indulgences, for example iirc pregnant women, the
ill and small children were allowed to breakfast before church, and
something of the sort for the same group in lent allowing an easement of
the very strict fast schedule.
margali
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 02:10:55 EST
From: CorwynWdwd at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - [fwd] Period Vegetarian
> Apparently_ (which means I was told by an unreliable or forgotten source)
the Pope declared that fowl were actually a type of fish. Mmmm, anybody want
to come down the beach with me? I'm going to catch some goose ;)
I remember the reference in a food and religon course at University of
Atlantia. I'm sure the instructer named sources in his bibliography, but the
handout is temporaraly unavailable for viewing.... He refered to the "Barnicle
Goose" and said they actually nested and migrated from somewhere in the New
World or perhaps Africa....so Europeans never saw them lay eggs. They were
thought to come from barnicles for some reason. Sounds like a stretch to
me...
Corwyn
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:57:01 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - [fwd] Period Vegetarian
At 2:09 PM +1100 2/9/98, Charles McCathieNevile wrote:
>Lots of days were declared by the church to be fast days - no meat dairy
>or eggs, although fish was usualy allowed. (_Apparently_ (which means I
>was told by an unreliable or forgotten source) the Pope declared that
>fowl were actually a type of fish. Mmmm, anybody want to come down the
>beach with me? I'm going to catch some goose ;)
>
>There were also ascetics, who lived on vege's on purpose. But I think the
>idea was that it was not meant to be fun - so you make porridge, and eat
>it, and make more - the theory is that suffering on earth gets you into
>heaven faster.
>
>Charles
There were ordinary fast days (Fridays and certain other days), for which
the rule was no meat (meaning quadrupeds or birds), but eggs, dairy, and
fish were legal; and fast days in Lent, when dairy and eggs were not legal
either but fish was still allowed. The Barnacle Goose was (and is) one
particular species of goose, looking a little like a Canada Goose but
smaller; in period it was "known" that it started as a sort of barnacle
which consists of a shell attached to driftwood or something with what
looks, given a little imagination, like an embryonic bird hanging from the
shell by its beak; this was believed to grow and eventually drop off to
become an independant bird. (See Giraldus Cambrensis for a period account
of this.) Everyone, of course, knew how ordinary geese and other fowl
reproduced. At one point it was argued that since the Barnacle Goose
started life as a fish it should be legal on fast days. Eventually (1215)
the controversy was settled by the Pope who decided that however it had
started life, by the time it was a goose it was flesh and therefore
prohibited on fast days. It wasn't until around 1700 or so that it became
clear to scientific opinion that the goose in question reproduced like
ordinary geese and the barnacle had nothing to do with it.
Elizabeth/Betty Cook
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:07:59 +0000
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Period Breakfasts...
And it came to pass on 17 Feb 98, that jeffrey s heilveil wrote:
> Please pardon an uneducated Jew (an to think I used to teach
> comparative religion, but plese enlighten me on which are flesh and
> which are fish days. I do know that the sabbath was a fish time for
> Catholics, but that's about it.
As it happens, I'm a Jew also, but I'll do my best to answer. Fish
days were during Lent -- the 40-day period leading up to Easter --
and on various other holy days. According to Anne Wilson in _Food
and Drink in Britain_, all Fridays and Saturdays were kept as fish
days until late in the Middle Ages, and Wednesdays as well until the
early 15th century. I believe that the schedule may have varied in
other countries. At times, the ban on meat extended to dairy
products as well, hence one of the reasons of the popularity of
almond milk.
> Bogdan
Lady Brighid ni Chiarain of Tethba
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom
mka Robin Carroll-Mann *** harper at idt.net
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 07:47:14 -0500
From: sunnie at CUPID.COM
Subject: SC - Baconn'd Herring Breakfasts
SC>I'm curious as to one thing, as HG Cariadoc mentioned baconned herring
SC>too. I'm working on the assumption here that "baconn'd" means cured and
SC>smoked, or some similar preservative process, rather than being cooked
SC>with bacon, which was also done pretty commonly in places like
SC>Scandinavia, but which would be in violation of the various Church
SC>dietary laws.
SC>Adamantius
Not necessarily....if the reference was to using the leavings of the
bacon or otherwise using the bacon smoke for the preparation of the
herring, it does not break any laws. You can cook a sauce with meat as
long as the meat is not consumed and is saved for another time. In
addition, the meat/fish days are a little more complex to my knowledge.
Fish on Friday all year long, Ash Wednsday, during lent if you are
really devoted. Meat are all other days. In addition, nothing except
medicine may be consumed between 12 and 3 on Good Friday. If the days
have changed drastically over the years, let me know. These are the
traditions I was taught.
Brenna
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:31:49 EST
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: SC - Bacon
csy20688 at GlaxoWellcome.co.uk writes:
<< On the other hand, I'd
have through it unlikely that bacon would have been consumed in Lent,
without special approval.
>>
It is correct that porcine bacon would not have been consumed in Lent,
However, a gentle reminder that until VERY recently whale meat was sold
cheaply. And one of the products of the whaling industry was whale meat in
the form of bacon. Salted whale meat, oil, baleen for boning and other whale
products were very cheap. Often times the only meat available and affordable
to the poor was salted whale. As an added bonus there was no doubt in the
Church's mind during the MA that whale was a fish. :-)
Therefore it is not improbable that bacon (e.g., cetacean) was eaten in Lent
but rather common practice given the expense of ordinary fish over this
product.
Ras.
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:16:38 -0400
From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow)
Subject: Re: SC - Bacon
><snip> Often times the only meat available and affordable to the poor was
>salted whale.
>Ras.
>=
>Okay, I am going to do something that I really hate when it happens to me...
>but can you document that Ras? I have seen some references to dolphin and
>porpoise being used in period, but not whale- and it was my understanding that
>out of period whale use did not include meat- fat, bone, baleen- but any
>"edible" parts were waste...
>-brid
Ooh, ooh, I know!
"And if on a fish day or in Lent there be whale-flesh (craspois), you ought
to use it as you use bacon on a meat day." Power, The Goodman of Paris
(Le Menagier de Paris), p. 252.
Cindy/Sincgiefu
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:43:56 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Period Breakfasts...
At 9:18 PM -0600 2/17/98, jeffrey s heilveil wrote:
>Please pardon an uneducated Jew (an to think I used to teach comparative
>religion, but plese enlighten me on which are flesh and which are fish
>days. I do know that the sabbath was a fish time for Catholics, but
>that's about it.
>
>Hiding behind freshly baked Challah,
>Bogdan
Fridays every week were fast days (and still were in my childhood for Roman
Catholics); at some periods, Wednesdays and/or Saturdays were fast days, as
was all of Lent (the 40 days before Easter not counting the Sundays) and (I
think) all of Advent (the four weeks before Christmas) except for the
Sundays. Ordinary fast days did not allow eating meat (although fish was
allowed), fast days in Lent also banned dairy and eggs.
So your Challah would be legal for an ordinary fish day but not for fish
days in Lent.
Elizabeth/Betty Cook
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:04:03 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Baconn'd Herring Breakfasts
>...if the reference was to using the leavings of the
>bacon or otherwise using the bacon smoke for the preparation of the
>herring, it does not break any laws. You can cook a sauce with meat as
>long as the meat is not consumed and is saved for another time...
>
>Brenna
That does not seem to have been the case at least in the 14th-15th century.
The recipes from this period go to a lot of trouble to substitute fish or
vegetarian broth (made from peas or onions, for example) or almond milk for
meat broth in fish-day versions of recipes.
Elizabeth/Betty Cook
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 12:47:40 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: SC - Fast Days (was Period Breakfasts...)
At 6:30 PM -0800 2/18/98, Crystal A. Isaac wrote:
>Am I reading this optomistically or could medieval peoples eat meat on
>Sundays during Lent?
>
>(Elizabeth/Betty Cook)wrote:
>> Fridays every week were fast days (and still were in my childhood for Roman
>> Catholics); at some periods, Wednesdays and/or Saturdays were fast days, as
>> was all of Lent (the 40 days before Easter not counting the Sundays) and (I
>> think) all of Advent (the four weeks before Christmas) except for the
>> Sundays. Ordinary fast days did not allow eating meat (although fish was
>> allowed), fast days in Lent also banned dairy and eggs.
I believe that is correct (although I am going from modern doctrine here,
not from a period reference). As I understand it, Sundays in Lent aren't
properly part of Lent at all--that is why the "forty days of Lent", from
Ash Wednesday to Holy Saturday, only adds up to forty if you skip the
Sundays. Every Sunday is considered to be a mini-Easter celebration and is
therefore a feast day not a fast day.
Elizabeth
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 20:01:51 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Shrove Tuesday/Mardi Gras/Carnival and Ducal University
At 12:53 AM -0400 7/14/98, geneviamoas at juno.com wrote:
>Just a tid bit of info I picked up somewhere... Shrove Tuesday was the
>last day you could have fats before the lenten Fasting began so they
>tried to use it all up. So what do you do with oils and fats you can't
>use? Grease the pig? Just rambling now - Genevia
The Lenten restriction wasn't "no fats", it was "no meat (other than fish),
no milk products, and no eggs". So you could use plant-derived oils and
fats from fish, and you would not have animal fats on your hands since you
would not be slaughtering the animals.
Elizabeth/Betty Cook
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 00:29:00 -0400
From: Nick Sasso <grizly at mindspring.com>
Subject: Lent and Feast Days (was Re: SC - fetal???)
Do also remember that the Sabbath was considered a feast day at all times, even
in Lent and Advent. This meant often relaxing the fast for Sunday. It is/was a time of celebrating the Paschal mysteries. The indulgences were also in high
gear for the right sum to the right Bishop. So many exceptions to the
rules.....now we can have hotdogs any day except Fridays of Lent (and Ash
Wednesday, and Holy week)
niccolo difrancesco
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 11:13:33 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Shrove Tuesday/Mardi Gras/Carnival and Ducal University
Allison asks:
>Actually, how widespread was the use of whaling products? Is this
>something our noble houses would have had available to order? How about
>households like the Menagier's, or country estates like Lady Fettiplace's
>place? Perhaps something like the whale oil would have been mainly
>available to seaside towns, and businesses such as sardines in oil, etc,
>for export inland as finished products.
Menagier writes: "GRASPOIS. This is salted whale, and should be sliced raw
and cooked in water like bacon; and serve with peas", and he has a pea
recipe which uses bacon for meat days and this salted whale on fish days.
The editor of the French text of Menagier has in a footnote to this: "A
lawsuit which lasted several years in the Paris parliament and which had to
do with the seven stalls owned by the king in the Paris markets, of which
stalls five were for salt fish and two for "craspois", tells us that the
"craspois" was only found in Paris in Lent: it was "Lenten bacon", the fish
for the poor; during Lent four thousand people lived on "craspois", dried
fish and herring."
Elizabeth/Betty Cook
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 12:19:28 -0400
From: Phil & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - meat days and fast days - MIXED?
Mary Morman wrote:
> I, too, tend to make a number of vegetarian dishes when serving a feast,
> but I do it with bad conscience. My impression is that if food was being
> served on a meat day - no attempt would be made to avoid meat, butter,
> milk, and eggs. If it were being served on a fast day, then EVERYTHING
> would avoid one or more of those ingredients (depending on the degree of
> the fast). I just can't see period cooks -mixing- their feast day and
> fast day dishes!
>
> Other opinions?
Generally I'm inclined to agree, but then we cater to a different crowd from
our period forebears. There are, I recall, period menus that include fish dish
references for clerics and others who may be fasting or abstaining on a
generally meat-type day. Chiquart speaks of the need to be accomodating to the
guest cooks brought in by His Grace's guests who are on special diets of all
sorts; I believe he mentions abstaining from meat on meat days, for whatever
reason, as one such aberrant diet to be accomodated.
Adamantius
stgardr, East
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 16:39:43 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Roast Eggs in Lent
At 2:45 PM -0500 11/5/98, Marilyn Traber wrote:
>I seem to remember that eggs were ok during lent as they were not
> meat...anybody?
>margali
Not in Lent. Eggs (and milk products) were all right on ordinary fast
days, but forbidden on fast days in Lent when the rules were more stringent.
Elizabeth/Betty Cook
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:23:22 -0500
From: mermayde at juno.com
Subject: SC - Fast Days
Ok, I looked up in "Fast and Feast" by Henisch, and here is what she says
about fast days:
"In each week there were three fast days, of which the most strictly
observed was Friday, in memory of the crucifixion. To this were added
Wednesday and Saturday; Wenesday because it was the day when Judas
accepted money for his promise to betray Jesus; Saturday because it was
the day consecrated to Mary and the celebration of her virginity.
Society was encouraged to observe these days, although, as with all
fasts, the very old, the very young, the very sick, and the very poor
were held excused. There were of course exceptions. St. Nicholas showed
his holiness early in life by refusing to take his mother's milk more
than once on Wednesdays and Fridays: 'Seint Nicholas... so yong to Crist
did reverence.' Four times a year these ordinary weekday fasts on
Wednesday, Friday and Saturday were observed with special seriousness:
early in Lent, just after Pentecost, in September, and in December
during Advent. At these punctuation points in the year, the days were
called Ember Days. The Church took over and adapted the Roman practice
of holding ceremonies to ask the gods for help with the farm year. In
June the Romans prayed for a good harvest; in September for a good
vintage; and in December for a good seed-time. By the 5th Century AD,
the Church had added a fourth occasion, in February or March. The days
always retained their links with the farm cycle, and in the services
designed for them the lessons are shot through with the imagery of
sowing, reaping, and harvsting.
The Church, however, was only partially concerned with the fruits of the
earth. Its principal interest was in the fruits of the soul, and so the
idea of harvest in the field became overlaid with that of spiritual
harvest. An early fifteenth century sermon by John Myrc, commenting on
the significance of the Ember Days, draws the necessary parallels
betweent he seasons of the earth and the soul. In March, cutting winds
dry up the sodden soil and make it workable; the fast will cleanse and
ready the soul. In summer, as plants shoot up, men fast to make their
virtues grow. In September, men hope to gather in a harvest of good
works; in December, as the shriveling cold kills off the earth's weeds,
the fast kills off the weeds of vice."
It strikes me in re-reading this while typing, that these concepts ring
true for me today. I work in a health food store, and we sell colon and