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fasts-msg - 3/2/14

 

Fasts and fastdays. Food restrictions, voluntary and involuntary, Lenten food restrictions.

 

NOTE: See also the files: vegetarian-msg, almond-milk-msg, fish-msg, seafood-msg, religion-msg, holidays-msg, feasts-msg, food-seasons-msg, eggs-msg.

 

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This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

 

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

 

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   Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                         Stefan at florilegium.org

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Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 09:11:12 -0500

From: margali <margali at 99main.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Butter in Lent...?

 

> There were also indulgences, which allowed one to consume foodstuffs

> that were otherwise forbidden.  One Spanish recipe, which I

> have seen and cannot for the life of me locate, mentions that

> such-and-such a recipe containing dairy is good for Lent, if you have

> an indulgence.  And isn't there a "Butter Tower" on some French

> cathedral, said to have been financed by the sale of indulgences to

> eat butter in Lent?

> 

> Lady Brighid ni Chiarain of Tethba

> Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom

> mka Robin Carroll-Mann *** harper  at  idt.net

 

Yes, there is a 'butter tower', somewhere i have a snapshot of it from a

vacation I took a number of years ago. There are also dietary easements

that are not exactly indulgences, for example iirc pregnant women, the

ill and small children were allowed to breakfast before church, and

something of the sort for the same group in lent allowing an easement of

the very strict fast schedule.

 

margali

 

 

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 02:10:55 EST

From: CorwynWdwd at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - [fwd] Period Vegetarian

 

> Apparently_ (which means I  was told by an unreliable or forgotten source)

the Pope declared that fowl were actually a type of fish. Mmmm, anybody want

to come down the beach with me? I'm going to catch some goose ;)

 

I remember the reference in a food and religon course at University of

Atlantia. I'm sure the instructer named sources in his bibliography, but the

handout is temporaraly unavailable for viewing.... He refered to the "Barnicle

Goose" and said they actually nested and migrated from somewhere in the New

World or perhaps Africa....so Europeans never saw them lay eggs. They were

thought to come from barnicles for some reason. Sounds like a stretch to

me...

 

Corwyn

 

 

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:57:01 -0800

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: Re: SC - [fwd] Period Vegetarian

 

At 2:09 PM +1100 2/9/98, Charles McCathieNevile wrote:

>Lots of days were declared by the church to be fast days - no meat dairy

>or eggs, although fish was usualy allowed. (_Apparently_ (which means I

>was told by an unreliable or forgotten source) the Pope declared that

>fowl were actually a type of fish. Mmmm, anybody want to come down the

>beach with me? I'm going to catch some goose ;)

> 

>There were also ascetics, who lived on vege's on purpose. But I think the

>idea was that it was not meant to be fun - so you make porridge, and eat

>it, and make more - the theory is that suffering on earth gets you into

>heaven faster.

> 

>Charles

 

There were ordinary fast days (Fridays and certain other days), for which

the rule was no meat (meaning quadrupeds or birds), but eggs, dairy, and

fish were legal; and fast days in Lent, when dairy and eggs were not legal

either but fish was still allowed.  The Barnacle Goose was (and is) one

particular species of goose, looking a little like a Canada Goose but

smaller; in period it was "known" that it started as a sort of barnacle

which consists of a shell attached to driftwood or something with what

looks, given a little imagination, like an embryonic bird hanging from the

shell by its beak; this was believed to grow and eventually drop off to

become an independant bird.  (See Giraldus Cambrensis for a period account

of this.) Everyone, of course, knew how ordinary geese and other fowl

reproduced. At one point it was argued that since the Barnacle Goose

started life as a fish it should be legal on fast days.  Eventually (1215)

the controversy was settled by the Pope who decided that however it had

started life, by the time it was a goose it was flesh and therefore

prohibited on fast days.  It wasn't until around 1700 or so that it became

clear to scientific opinion that the goose in question reproduced like

ordinary geese and the barnacle had nothing to do with it.

 

Elizabeth/Betty Cook

 

 

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:07:59 +0000

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>

Subject: Re: SC - Period Breakfasts...

 

And it came to pass on 17 Feb 98, that jeffrey s heilveil wrote:

 

> Please pardon an uneducated Jew (an to think I used to teach

> comparative religion, but plese enlighten me on which are flesh and

> which are fish days.  I do know that the sabbath was a fish time for

> Catholics, but that's about it.

 

As it happens, I'm a Jew also, but I'll do my best to answer.  Fish

days were during Lent -- the 40-day period leading up to Easter --

and on various other holy days.  According to Anne Wilson in _Food

and Drink in Britain_, all Fridays and Saturdays were kept as fish

days until late in the Middle Ages, and Wednesdays as well until the

early 15th century.  I believe that the schedule may have varied in

other countries.  At times, the ban on meat extended to dairy

products as well, hence one of the reasons of the popularity of

almond milk.

 

> Bogdan

 

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain of Tethba

Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom

mka Robin Carroll-Mann *** harper  at  idt.net

 

 

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 07:47:14 -0500

From: sunnie at CUPID.COM

Subject: SC - Baconn'd Herring Breakfasts

 

SC>I'm curious as to one thing, as HG Cariadoc mentioned baconned herring

SC>too. I'm working on the assumption here that "baconn'd" means cured and

SC>smoked, or some similar preservative process, rather than being cooked

SC>with bacon, which was also done pretty commonly in places like

SC>Scandinavia, but which would be in violation of the various Church

SC>dietary laws.

 

SC>Adamantius

 

Not necessarily....if the reference was to using the leavings of the

bacon or otherwise using the bacon smoke for the preparation of the

herring, it does not break any laws.  You can cook a sauce with meat as

long as the meat is not consumed and is saved for another time.  In

addition, the meat/fish days are a little more complex to my knowledge.

Fish on Friday all year long, Ash Wednsday, during lent if you are

really devoted.  Meat are all other days.  In addition, nothing except

medicine may be consumed between 12 and 3 on Good Friday.  If the days

have changed drastically over the years, let me know.  These are the

traditions I was taught.

 

Brenna

 

 

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:31:49 EST

From: LrdRas at aol.com

Subject: SC - Bacon

 

csy20688 at GlaxoWellcome.co.uk writes:

<< On the other hand, I'd

have through it unlikely that bacon would have been consumed in Lent,

without special approval.

>>

 

It is correct that porcine bacon would not have been consumed in Lent,

However, a gentle reminder that until VERY recently whale meat was sold

cheaply. And one of the products of the whaling industry was whale meat in

the form of bacon.  Salted whale meat, oil, baleen for boning and other whale

products were very cheap.  Often times the only meat available and affordable

to the poor was salted whale. As an added bonus there was no doubt in the

Church's mind during the MA that whale was a fish. :-)

 

Therefore it is not improbable that bacon (e.g., cetacean) was eaten in Lent

but rather common practice given the expense of ordinary fish over this

product.

 

Ras.

 

 

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:16:38 -0400

From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow)

Subject: Re: SC - Bacon

 

><snip> Often times the only meat available and affordable to the poor was

>salted whale.

>Ras.

>=

>Okay, I am going to do something that I really hate when it happens to me...

>but can you document that Ras?  I have seen some references to dolphin and

>porpoise being used in period, but not whale- and it was my understanding that

>out of period whale use did not include meat- fat, bone, baleen- but any

>"edible" parts were waste...

>-brid

 

Ooh, ooh, I know!

 

"And if on a fish day or in Lent there be whale-flesh (craspois), you ought

to use it as you use bacon on a meat day."   Power, The Goodman of Paris

(Le Menagier de Paris), p. 252.

 

Cindy/Sincgiefu

 

 

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:43:56 -0800

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Period Breakfasts...

 

At 9:18 PM -0600 2/17/98, jeffrey s heilveil wrote:

>Please pardon an uneducated Jew (an to think I used to teach comparative

>religion, but plese enlighten me on which are flesh and which are fish

>days. I do know that the sabbath was a fish time for Catholics, but

>that's about it.

> 

>Hiding behind freshly baked Challah,

>Bogdan

 

Fridays every week were fast days (and still were in my childhood for Roman

Catholics); at some periods, Wednesdays and/or Saturdays were fast days, as

was all of Lent (the 40 days before Easter not counting the Sundays) and (I

think) all of Advent (the four weeks before Christmas) except for the

Sundays. Ordinary fast days did not allow eating meat (although fish was

allowed), fast days in Lent also banned dairy and eggs.

 

So your Challah would be legal for an ordinary fish day but not for fish

days in Lent.

 

Elizabeth/Betty Cook

 

 

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:04:03 -0800

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Baconn'd Herring Breakfasts

 

>...if the reference was to using the leavings of the

>bacon or otherwise using the bacon smoke for the preparation of the

>herring, it does not break any laws.  You can cook a sauce with meat as

>long as the meat is not consumed and is saved for another time...

> 

>Brenna

 

That does not seem to have been the case at least in the 14th-15th century.

The recipes from this period go to a lot of trouble to substitute fish or

vegetarian broth (made from peas or onions, for example) or almond milk for

meat broth in fish-day versions of recipes.

 

Elizabeth/Betty Cook

 

 

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 12:47:40 -0800

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: SC - Fast Days (was Period Breakfasts...)

 

At 6:30 PM -0800 2/18/98, Crystal A. Isaac wrote:

>Am I reading this optomistically or could medieval peoples eat meat on

>Sundays during Lent?

> 

>(Elizabeth/Betty Cook)wrote:

>> Fridays every week were fast days (and still were in my childhood for Roman

>> Catholics); at some periods, Wednesdays and/or Saturdays were fast days, as

>> was all of Lent (the 40 days before Easter not counting the Sundays) and (I

>> think) all of Advent (the four weeks before Christmas) except for the

>> Sundays.  Ordinary fast days did not allow eating meat (although fish was

>> allowed), fast days in Lent also banned dairy and eggs.

 

I believe that is correct (although I am going from modern doctrine here,

not from a period reference).  As I understand it, Sundays in Lent aren't

properly part of Lent at all--that is why the "forty days of Lent", from

Ash Wednesday to Holy Saturday, only adds up to forty if you skip the

Sundays. Every Sunday is considered to be a mini-Easter celebration and is

therefore a feast day not a fast day.

 

Elizabeth

 

 

Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 20:01:51 -0800

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Shrove Tuesday/Mardi Gras/Carnival and Ducal University

 

At 12:53 AM -0400 7/14/98, geneviamoas at juno.com wrote:

>Just a tid bit of info I picked up somewhere... Shrove Tuesday was the

>last day you could have fats before the lenten Fasting began so they

>tried to use it all up. So what do you do with oils and fats you can't

>use? Grease the pig? Just rambling now  - Genevia

 

The Lenten restriction wasn't "no fats", it was "no meat (other than fish),

no milk products, and no eggs".  So you could use plant-derived oils and

fats from fish, and you would not have animal fats on your hands since you

would not be slaughtering the animals.

 

Elizabeth/Betty Cook

 

 

Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 00:29:00 -0400

From: Nick Sasso <grizly at mindspring.com>

Subject: Lent and Feast Days (was Re: SC - fetal???)

 

Do also remember that the Sabbath was considered a feast day at all times, even

in Lent and Advent.  This meant often relaxing the fast for Sunday.   It is/was a time of celebrating the Paschal mysteries.  The indulgences were also in high

gear for the right sum to the right Bishop.  So many exceptions to the

rules.....now we can have hotdogs any day except Fridays of Lent (and Ash

Wednesday, and Holy week)

 

niccolo difrancesco

 

 

Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 11:13:33 -0800

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Shrove Tuesday/Mardi Gras/Carnival and Ducal University

 

Allison asks:

>Actually, how widespread was the use of whaling products?  Is this

>something our noble houses would have had available to order?  How about

>households like the Menagier's, or country estates like Lady Fettiplace's

>place? Perhaps something like the whale oil would have been mainly

>available to seaside towns, and businesses such as sardines in oil, etc,

>for export inland as finished products.

 

Menagier writes: "GRASPOIS. This is salted whale, and should be sliced raw

and cooked in water like bacon; and serve with peas", and he has a pea

recipe which uses bacon for meat days and this salted whale on fish days.

 

The editor of the French text of Menagier has in a footnote to this: "A

lawsuit which lasted several years in the Paris parliament and which had to

do with the seven stalls owned by the king in the Paris markets, of which

stalls five were for salt fish and two for "craspois", tells us that the

"craspois" was only found in Paris in Lent: it was "Lenten bacon", the fish

for the poor; during Lent four thousand people lived on "craspois", dried

fish and herring."

 

Elizabeth/Betty Cook

 

 

Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 12:19:28 -0400

From: Phil & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - meat days and fast days - MIXED?

 

Mary Morman wrote:

> I, too, tend to make a number of vegetarian dishes when serving a feast,

> but I do it with bad conscience.  My impression is that if food was being

> served on a meat day - no attempt would be made to avoid meat, butter,

> milk, and eggs.  If it were being served on a fast day, then EVERYTHING

> would avoid one or more of those ingredients (depending on the degree of

> the fast).  I just can't see period cooks -mixing- their feast day and

> fast day dishes!

> 

> Other opinions?

 

Generally I'm inclined to agree, but then we cater to a different crowd from

our period forebears. There are, I recall, period menus that include fish dish

references for clerics and others who may be fasting or abstaining on a

generally meat-type day. Chiquart speaks of the need to be accomodating to the

guest cooks brought in by His Grace's guests who are on special diets of all

sorts; I believe he mentions abstaining from meat on meat days, for whatever

reason, as one such aberrant diet to be accomodated.

 

Adamantius

Østgardr, East

 

 

Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 16:39:43 -0800

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Roast Eggs in Lent

 

At 2:45 PM -0500 11/5/98, Marilyn Traber wrote:

>I seem to remember that eggs were ok during lent as they were not

> meat...anybody?

>margali

 

Not in Lent.  Eggs (and milk products) were all right on ordinary fast

days, but forbidden on fast days in Lent when the rules were more stringent.

 

Elizabeth/Betty Cook

 

 

Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:23:22 -0500

From: mermayde at juno.com

Subject: SC - Fast Days

 

Ok, I looked up in "Fast and Feast" by Henisch, and here is what she says

about fast days:

"In each week there were three fast days, of which the most strictly

observed was Friday, in memory of the crucifixion.  To this were added

Wednesday and Saturday; Wenesday because it was the day when Judas

accepted money for his promise to betray Jesus; Saturday because it was

the day consecrated to Mary and the celebration of her virginity.

Society was encouraged to observe these days, although, as with all

fasts, the very old, the very young, the very sick, and the very poor

were held excused.  There were of course exceptions.  St. Nicholas showed

his holiness early in life by refusing to take his mother's milk more

than once on Wednesdays and Fridays: 'Seint Nicholas... so yong to Crist

did reverence.'  Four times a year these ordinary weekday fasts on

Wednesday, Friday and Saturday were observed with special seriousness:

early in Lent, just after Pentecost, in September,  and in December

during Advent.  At these punctuation points in the year, the days were

called Ember Days.  The Church took over and adapted the Roman practice

of holding ceremonies to ask the gods for help with the farm year.  In

June the Romans prayed for a good harvest; in September for a good

vintage; and in December for a good seed-time.  By the 5th Century AD,

the Church had added a fourth occasion, in February or March.  The days

always retained their links with the farm cycle, and in the services

designed for them the lessons are shot through with the imagery of

sowing, reaping, and harvsting.

 

The Church, however, was only partially concerned with the fruits of the

earth. Its principal interest was in the fruits of the soul, and so the

idea of harvest in the field became overlaid with that of spiritual

harvest. An early fifteenth century sermon by John Myrc, commenting on

the significance of the Ember Days, draws the necessary parallels

betweent he seasons of the earth and the soul.  In March, cutting winds

dry up the sodden soil and make it workable; the fast will cleanse and

ready the soul.  In summer, as plants shoot up, men fast to make their

virtues grow.  In September, men hope to gather in a harvest of good

works; in December, as the shriveling cold kills off the earth's weeds,

the fast kills off the weeds of vice."

 

It strikes me in re-reading this while typing, that these concepts ring

true for me today.  I work in a health food store, and we sell colon and

system cleanses.  The company that makes the best one recommends doing it

4 times a year.  To me, it makes sense to do it right after Christmas,

right after pollen season (early summer) and sometime in September.  I

had never imagined that here I was, falling into a routine that is not

only Period, but agricultural as well.  My, my.

 

Christianna

amazed at the way the world comes round in circles, again and again

 

 

Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 19:48:19 -0600

From: "Karen O" <kareno at lewistown.net>

Subject: Re: SC -Lenten/Vegan ideas

 

>* Finally, has anyone got a list of recipes which specify what changes can

be made to make them suitable for a non-meat day? I'm after some period

guidelines as to what to do when adapting recipes for vegetarians.<

 

       From the "Medieval Handbooks of Penance"  (John T McNeill and Helena

M Gamer, Octagon Books Inc 1965)  it reads that  when doing Penance for a

year, the three fast days are Mon Weds & Fri,   and on Tues Thurs and Sat  "

. . .abstain from wine, mead, honeyed beer, meat, fat, cheese and eggs, and

from every kind of fat fish. He may, however, eat little fishes if he is

able to obtain them.  If he cannot obtain them, he may, if he wishes, eat

one kind of fish only and beans and vegtables and apples, and drink beer."

 

   and that's a pretty good idea of a lenten meal;  so use what recipes are

available for Lent/ fast days/ ember days  for the Vegetarians.

 

   Caointiarn

 

 

Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 14:27:19 -0500

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: Re: SC -Lenten/Vegan ideas

 

At 10:07 PM -0700 9/2/99, April Abbott (Sofonisba) wrote:

>Out of curiosity, has anybody ever tried cooking a whole Lenten meal at an

>event?

 

I have never seen it done. There was a feast in the Middle a few years back

that claimed to be Lenten, but they cheated: they "got a dispensation" to

use cheese and eggs. I have thought of doing one at some point, but don't

think I have enough good recipes yet. Things I would do include the salmon

with wine sauce that was posted here by a couple people a while back,

Platina's fried broad beans, maybe the noodles with almond milk sauce,

potage of rapes (or maybe carrots) with a veggie broth, one of the versions

of greens in almond milk, Platina's torta of re chickpeas...

 

Other suggestions?

 

(The rules are, as far as I have been able to make out: no meat other than

fish, no milk products, including butter, no eggs. If you were seriously

doing penance or getting into the spirit of Lent, there might be other

restrictions--but in that case, you wouldn't be doing a feast anyway. The

cookbooks seem to be full of ways to keep the letter of the Lenten rules

while keeping as much luxury as possible.)

 

Elizabeth/Betty Cook

 

 

Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 00:51:12 -0400

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>

Subject: Re: SC -Lenten/Vegan ideas

 

And it came to pass on 7 Sep 99,, that david friedman wrote:

 

> Things I would do include the salmon with wine sauce that was posted here by a couple people

> a while back, Platina's fried broad beans, maybe the noodles with almond

> milk sauce, potage of rapes (or maybe carrots) with a veggie broth, one of

> the versions of greens in almond milk, Platina's torta of re chickpeas...

> 

> Other suggestions?

 

> Elizabeth/Betty Cook

 

I would include a few sweet dishes, and at least one with fruit.  Including

"desserts" is a good way to make a meatless meal seem less

penitential. One of the pears in syrup recipes, perhaps, or applemoyse.

Or one of the fruit-and-bread puddings.  Lenten apple fritters.  I rather

like the ginestada that I posted a while back -- it's a lightly sweetened

pudding of almond milk and rice flour, studded with dates, almonds, and

pine nuts, and flavored with cinnamon, ginger, cloves, and rosewater.

And don't forget the gingerbrede...

 

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain

Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)

 

 

Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 04:05:54 -0400 (EDT)

From: cclark at vicon.net

Subject: Re: SC -Lenten/Vegan ideas

 

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain wrote:

>I would include a few sweet dishes, and at least one with fruit. ...

 

I quite agree. I just looked up the menus in _Curye_on_Inglysch_ (my

favorite redaction of period recipes and food writings). There are two 14th

century menus recommended for use on fish days.

 

In the first menu, the third (and last) course is "rosee to potage & crem of

almaundes, therwith sturioun & welkes, grete eles & lamprouns, dariol,

lechefres of frut, & therwith nyrsebeke." In the second fish day menu, the

third course is "crustede, fretour of mylk & frutour blaunche, dariol of

almaund, rapey, rosee, & chesan. The first of these has four fish dishes to

five fishless goodies, while the second is basically all goodies, just one

of which probably contains fish mixed with currants and almonds.

 

Apparently neither menu follows Lenten restrictions on milk and eggs. The

fretour of milk and perhaps the first dariol contain milk or milk products,

while the dariols, crustede and fretour of milk most likely contain eggs.

But many of the foods listed here would also be suitable for Lent.

 

By the way, while the most sweets, etc., came in the last course, they

started to appear before then. The first menu ends the second course with

"tartes and flampoyntes," while the second has "cheuettes of frut" in the

first course and begins the second course with "lechefreys, flampoyntes,

dariol, hastelestes of frut..." Again, some of these are not Lenten foods.

 

Still, there are a bunch of yummy Lenten goodies here, and that's just from

menus written (as recommendations) in 14th century England. Look a little

farther and one could find enough for a good many Lenten banquets. :-)

 

Alex Clark/Henry of Maldon

 

 

Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:03:40 EDT

From: RuddR at aol.com

Subject: SC - RE: SC-Lenten/Vegan ideas

 

April Abbott (Sofonisba) writes:

<<Out of curiosity, has anybody ever tried cooking a whole Lenten meal at an

event?>>

 

It isn't a SCA event, but I host an annual Mid-Lent Feast, on the most

convenient Saturday halfway between Ash Wednesday and Easter.  We adhere

closely to Medieval Lenten food restrictions.  We allow ourselves butter and

cheese, and substitute vegetable stock for meat broth where needed.  We make

sure we have enough lean dishes without fish to satisfy vegetarian guests,

who must always decline invitations to our other, meat-laden medieval feasts.

 

The menu for this years feast (IIRC):

 

First Course:

Puree of Peas

Apple Moy

Haddok in Cyvee

Green Garlic Sauce for Fish

Turbut Rost Ensauce

Losynes

Custad Lombard in Lent

 

Second Course:

Buttered Wortes

Cold Salmon with Vinegar Sauce (Elizabethan, but still delicious)

Shrimp with Vinegar and Parsley

Salat

Eyroun in Lent (egg shells filled with almond cream)

Fresh Fruit

 

Rudd Rayfield

 

 

Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:18:11 EST

From: LrdRas at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - beavers

 

A thought....

 

The Catholic faith during the middle ages did NOT classify either beavers,

barnacle geese or sea mammals as fish. The 'guidelines' merely stated that

animals from the sea were considered as appropriate food for meatless days.

There is no indication that they were thought of as fish that I am aware of.

The key requirement was creatures living in water. The animal kingdom that

water creatures belonged to was irrelevant. It is by this logic that things

like fetal or new born animals such as fetal or newborn rabbits were also

'kosher' for meatless days.

 

BTW, newborn animals have virtually no taste while the flavor of fetal

(e.g., unborn) animals can best be described as having the slightest hint of

liver flavor to them. All in all, the service of such animals would be most

appreciated by feasters that have extremely sensitive palates.

 

Ras

 

 

Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 19:49:40 -0800

From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at efn.org>

Subject: NEW! SC - beavers

 

<snip of info on beavers in medieval bestiearies. See bestiaries-msg>

 

Since Ras mentioned again the meat vs. fish fasting issue, I must go on

the make the next point, which has a very strange tie-in...

 

It seems this 'casting away of vice', etc., was appropriated by the

clerics in their pursuit of holiness, and the vice to be cast away was

of course sexual in nature- to take that which offended and give it back

to the Adversary...

 

However, when it comes to eating beaver, the most information we have is

indeed monastic. Gerald of Wales, in the 12th century reports that monks

consumed beaver tails during fast times because they were held to be

fish according to 'Antique authorities' (I looked in the notes- Gerald's

_Topographia Hiberniae_ and the _Itinerarium Kambriae_ refer to Pliny's

_Naturalis historia_) He also reports that barnacle geese were believed

to grow on trees in Ireland, and that they could be eaten during fast

times because they were not 'flesh' Now the beaver lived in water, which

fit the monastic definition of fish, but apparently Gerald disagreed

that a four-legged, furry animal was a fish.

 

Also interesting- to me at least- was that the monks felt fish to be

superior food because as far as they could tell, it did not reproduce

sexually and therefore did not inflame passion. Similar reason as why

the Cathars generally allowed fish but not meat, milk, etc- it was seen

as asexual.

 

So Ras, are you planning to go beaver hunting? ;-)

 

Bad 'Lainie. heh heh heh.

 

 

Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 11:06:04 -0600

From: "Karen O" <kareno at lewistown.net>

Subject: Re: SC - feasting during Lent (Vegan Feasts)

 

>>     Olaf wrote:

>There fore this challenge:  tell me a complete period feast of 3 removes

>> with at least 2 courses per remove that  would not have any dishes

objectional to any vegan person. >>

 

and Stefan inquired:

>However, would they have held a feast during Lent in christian Europe?<

 

Probably not  -- except for on Sundays (and special feast days)    One book

I cited from for a Wooden Spoon  type competition which was a Lenten Meal,

states that Penance for a year spent in fasting on bread & water  (oh!  they

DID drink the water!)

was to follow the plan of fast three days: namely Mon, Wed & fri on bread &

water. On three days, namely  Tue Thur & Say  abstain from wine, mead

honeyed beer, meat, fat, cheese, and eggs and from every kind of fat fish.

this section goes on to state that  he may eat little fishes if he is able

to obtain them  and beans, veggies, apples & drink beer.

 

On Sundays and assorted Feast days: Nativity, Penecost, St John the Baptist,

Holy Mary, the twelve Apostles, feast of the Ascension, St. Michael, St

Regmigius, All Saints, St Martin Patron saint of the Diocese, he shall

fraternize with other Christians  -- that is, he will use the same foods &

drink as they.  It goes on to say NOT to consume the Feast food is a bad

sin, and not in keeping with the holiness of the Penitent fast.

 

   That is from  _Medieval Handbooks of Penance_  a translation of the

principal "libri poenitentiales" and selections from related documents   by

John T McNeill & Helena M Gamer  Octagon Books Inc  1965

 

Another source:  _The Paschal or Lent Fast_ Apostolical and Pertetual,  at

first delivered in  A SERMON  preached before his Majesty in Lent and since

enlarged. Published by his Majesties special Command    by Peter Gunning

D>D> oxford  (MDCCCXLV)

 

Having done research, and wishing she had the former book

 

Caointiarn

 

 

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 12:13:15 -0400

From: Christine A Seelye-King <mermayde at juno.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Re:  Lenten Feasts

 

> "Feast and Fast" I think would be a good resource for those

> interested in fast day traditions.  In that book, I believe there is

> a passage that mentions the belief that Sundays were observed as

> feast days regardless of season.  

> pacem et bonum,

> niccolo difrancesco

 

        In fact, the reason Lent begins on a Wednesday is so that it is still 40

days long, not counting the Sundays.

        Christianna

 

Ash Wednesday* - 1st day of Lent. Originally, it used to start on a

Sunday. Since the fasts did not apply to Sunday, Pope Gregory in the 6th

or 7th century moved it back to the preceding Wednesday, so that it would

make the period of fasting exactly 40 weekdays.

From "366 Days of Celebrations" by Christine Seelye-King

 

 

Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 22:36:09 -0500

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Friday Feasts

 

Jill James wrote:

>

> If you all would be so kind as to consider this question: In England of

> the thirteenth/fourteenth century, a meatless Friday fast was followed,

> right?  If this is true, then when a major feast day (say Michelmas)

> fell on a Friday, would meat be cooked as in a feast on any other day,

> or would the cook have to prepare food of fish or the "white meats"?

 

Ooooh, I'm not sure if you want to include the phrase "white meats" in

there: nowadays they refer to meats that would have been prohibited on

meatless days, veal, pork, maybe chicken. Whitemeats in period are dairy products...

 

However, to get to your question: the answer is, "I dunno!"

 

However, here's what I _do_ know. In the early 15th century, Maitre

Chiquart d'Amiczo, master cook of two Counts, and one Duke, of Savoy,

wrote a book which appears to be both an instruction manual and a

proposal (in a business sense) for a planned feast for the Count of

Savoy to marry the daughter of, IIRC, the Duke of Burgundy. The proposed

wedding festival is to take place over two or three days in succession,

at least one of which being a Friday or Saturday fish-day, and the

proposed menu features largely the same dishes in meat and fish-day

forms, with recipes for both.

 

Now, whether this applies to England of the thirteenth/fourteenth

centuries is a little unclear. Recipe sources available from the period

don't make it hugely clear whether all the dishes they refer to are for

feast days or for everyday eating by people who are presumably wealthy

(they own books, don't they?). Certainly some dishes are represented in

both Lenten or fish-day forms, in conjunction with meat-day versions.

Whether that means the meat versions are feast dishes isn't completely

clear, but the complexity and references to garnishes, some pretty

outlandish, including dishes made to look like the heads of Turks, for

example, might suggest they are. I doubt these are casual supper dishes.

("Quick, Guilliaume, Prior Herebert from the Abbey of Saint Anselm's has

been sent for to sit vigil at the deathbed of Lady Agatha. Whip up a

nice pheasant-and-pistacchio-filled Teste de Turt for him, will ya?

He'll be hungry.")

 

If you look at menus of the period, you'll find what occasionally seems

like disregard of the rules, with early courses of a feast being made

from fresh and salt fish (there's some mixed evidence to suggest this

would not normally have been done outside of Lent or fish days), to be

followed by the more standard meat-day venison and frumenty, etc.  

 

I would say, intuitively and without total certainty, that fish and

other meatless alternatives would be employed on appropriate days if the

host or guest(s) of honor deemed it the correct plan of action, and if

not, not.

 

And it'll be plenty hot enough for these wicked people to bake all the

venison pasties they can eat where _they're_ going, heh heh heh...

 

Adamantius (sorry, couldn't help myself; artificial piety seems to be in

the air pretty often in early November)

 

 

Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 16:53:41 -0700

From: "KarenO" <kareno at lewistown.net>

Subject: Re: SC - Lenten fasting...

 

Both of these

books are (were?) at the University of California, Davis. Excerpts from my

documentation for a Lenten Meal:

 

"St Chryosostom tells us there are definitive rules and laws which we are to

learn of this Lenten fast.  First, and foremost that "our fasting be as the

Church at first defined it,  a great instrument of our great work of

repentance. Secondly, that our fast be truly fasting, not a commutation

only of our usual diet."   (Gunning, p 130)

 

And so, from this admonition, and the Roman Penitential, we learn how to

fast without losing strength that we may keep at our daily work:  "Fast

three days in each week, namely, Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, on bread and

water. And on three days, namely Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday,  . . .

(we) may eat beans,  and grains, and  vegetables, and apples, and drink

beer." (McNeill and Gamer,   p 343)"

 

Gunning, Petler, D.D.: The Paschal or Lent Fast  Oxford   (MDCCCXLV)

McNeill, John and Gamer, Helena:  Medieval Handbooks of Penance  New York

1965

 

Caointiarn

 

 

Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 21:21:22 -0500

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Lenten fasting...

 

Ted Eisenstein wrote:

> "drink beer"? During Lent? Heavens!

 

Yep. The restrictions for fasting are in regard to eating, or, rather,

not eating. Doesn't say nuthin' 'bout drinking, especially when some

ales and beers were specifically mashed for their dextrins rather than

for fermentables. In short, there's a distinct possibility these people

weren't so much drinking an alcoholic beverage as drinking "liquid bread".

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 22:09:00 -0500

From: grizly at mindspring.com

Subject: Re: Re: SC - Lenten fasting...

 

> > > >. . . . In short, there's a distinct possibility these people weren't so much drinking an alcoholic beverage as drinking "liquid bread". < < < <

 

> In some cases I think they may have been drinking 'small beer' also, at least when fasting, which would have been very low in alcohol. (Small beer is only fermented for a few days.) <

 

Some monastic references such as letters suggest that the heavier beers were made during late winter/early spring to offer sustenance during the times of strict fasting during lent (other times as well, but this time in particular).  The small beers were the every-day stuff of any time of year, in general.  Grain orders of huge amounts of oats, barley, wheat and the like are not uncommon at this point of the year in order to brew the substantial beers.

 

niccolo

 

 

Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 07:48:52 -0500

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Lenten fasting...

 

Jenne Heise wrote:

> > Yep. The restrictions for fasting are in regard to eating, or, rather,

> > not eating. Doesn't say nuthin' 'bout drinking, especially when some

> > ales and beers were specifically mashed for their dextrins rather than

> > for fermentables. In short, there's a distinct possibility these people

> > weren't so much drinking an alcoholic beverage as drinking "liquid bread".

>

> In some cases I think they may have been drinking 'small beer' also, at

> least when fasting, which would have been very low in alcohol. (Small beer

> is only fermented for a few days.)

 

In some cases, I'm sure they were, but I don't think there's any real

reason (unless you can name one) to assume this was a regular fasting

thing. In fact, I seem to recall reading that bock beers (generally

double or triple gravity, although not necessarily very high in alcohol)

as well as March beers, are intended specifically for Lenten use.

 

My point about heavier beers has more to do with infusion mashing

(apparently older than the decoction method) and the resultant heavy

alpha conversion, which creates a relatively dextrin-rich, low-alcohol

brew, as compared to lower-temperature mashes with higher beta

conversions, which produces a thinner, but higher-proof, beer.

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 17:11:56 +0100

From: "Christina van Tets" <cjvt at hotmail.com>

Subject: SC - feasting and religion (longish)

 

The two refs I promised to find were in the same book:  Elizabeth Burton's

'The Elizabethans at Home' (Arrow, London, 1973).

 

Anecdote told by William Harrison in 'A Description of England', which has

no date in this book but I think was written in 1577 (p. 147)

'It appears that an English nobleman sent a great hog's-head of brawn to a

Roman Catholic gentleman in France, "who supposing it to be fish reserved it

until Lent and ate it most frugally every day".  This unfortunate Catholic

gentleman liked the brawn so well that he sent to England for more "as fish

for next Lent".  On this Harrison comments with ill-concealed delight and

scepticism, "had he known it was flesh he would not have touched it for a

thousand crowns - I dare say - without the Pope's consent".*

 

'* Yet at the Coronation Banquet of Katherine of Valois, wife of Henry V,

Alderman Fabyan records "their feast was all of fish, for, being February

24th Lent was entered upon and nothing of meat was there saving brawn with

mustard". Brawn may have been a permitted Lenten dish in pre-Reformation

England, or a special dispensation may have been granted.'

 

[Although according to Barbara Santich soldiers, and pregnant/nursing women

were permitted not to fast.  Perhaps the brawn was for them.  CJvT]

 

Anecdote no 2 from Wm Harrison (p. 148):

'Even more deplorable is the story of and Englishman living in Spain who

served brawn to some Jewish guests.  They, too, under the illusion that it

was some uncommon kind of fish, enjoyed the dish heartily.  When they had

finished, their host - whose high spirits seem to have been matched only by

his crass insensitivity - produced the boar's head and, no doubt nearly

speechless with laughter, explained that this was the animal from which the

strange fish had been made.  The wretched Jews stayed not a moment longer.  

All rushed off to their homes where, stomach pumps not having been invented,

they resorted to other violent measures to escape contamination.'

 

Although there is no excuse for forcing someone to eat something which you

know is forbidden to him/her, there is actually a precedent for someone

choosing not to eat a permitted food so as not to offend those around him:

 

'In one of the letters written before reaching Japan [1549], [St. Francis]

Xavier says that they had been told that the Japanese would be offended if

they saw the missionaries eating animal food, and so to avoid offence they

determined to refrain from it.'  A History of Christianity in Japan,

originally printed 1909, reprinted 1994 Curzon Press, Richmond, England.

Elsewhere in the book it is explained that the Buddhist and Shinto priests

in Japan demonstrated their holiness by abstaining from animal products, and

the Christians thought it would suit their purpose to copy this, even though

the church did not require it.

 

As to appropriate behaviour when confronted with an array of food which your

persona can't eat, most of the mundane people here who encounter the same

problem tend to sit in a corner toying with a glass of water and looking

miserable and apologetic.  Admittedly we pay for feasts, but that is to

cover the food costs the SCA can't bear.  When we get to the feast, as a

rule, we behave as though we are the guests of whoever is giving the feast,

and we can't throw a tantrum about not being provided for if we are a guest.

 

There is also another side to religion and feasting, which I hadn't

anticipated: a friend of ours from Gaza (the one we visited the weekend

before the Intifada struck) came to dinner and was uncomfortable with

looking at our hands.  The reason?  Apparently Muslims don't eat with their

left hand, because in the Koran it says this is the way you can tell demons

- - they do use their left hand for food.

 

Cairistiona

 

 

Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 12:39:39 -0800

From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at efn.org>

Subject: Re: SC - feasting and religion (longish)

 

I've been watching the conversation and wanted to pop in with my two

pence (which may or may not me worth two pence!)...

 

Has anyone noticed that Lent also serves a practical purpose in an

agrarian society? The end of winter/early spring- stores are getting

low, spring vegetables are just beginning to come out. The temptation to

slaughter liverstock, etc to get through must be fairly high. But that

action would endanger the next year, and could be fatal.

 

But with Lenten restrictions-

 

no eggs, meaning the chickens set on their eggs, which provides a bunch

of new chicks (and not marshmallow ones!)

 

no milk products- during a period that the cow is probably heavy with

calf, and both will be healthier if you let her dry up

 

no meat, giving your livestock a chance to reproduce and fatten for the

next year

 

and all that fish was probably good for the arteries!

 

Sometimes religious restrictions are good for us!

 

'Lainie

 

 

Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 17:23:01 -0000

From: Christina Nevin <cnevin at caci.co.uk>

Subject: Re: SC - list newbie/Seasonal food

 

Allison wrote:

From my bibliography:

Spencer, Colin.  THE HERETIC'S FEAST, A History of Vegetarianism.

University Press of New England, Hanover and London, 1995.  ISBN 0 87451

708 7.  While generally written from a study of religion viewpoint, and

has only some hundred pages on our period, it is useful theoretical

background. No recipes. RECOMMENDED only for the serious food historian,

and get it from the library.

 

Saluti!

 

I second the recommendation on this book, though I think it's a little more

accessible than "only for the serious food historian" (no insult Allison,

but those are words guaranteed to scare off prospective readers! :-). I

thought it was excellent and imminently readable.

It explains a lot about the Church's attitude towards flesh-eating and

fasting, it's history and roots in Greek and Roman philosophies, Judaic

dietary law, and the influence of early Christian leaders. And if you get

confused about all the different sects - Cathars, Gnostics, etc (I always

do), it provides some extremely useful summations of them through their food

philosophy.

 

Ciao

Lucrezia

 

 

Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 16:30:57 +0100

From: Christina Nevin <cnevin at caci.co.uk>

Subject: SC - a Lenten question

 

Mel asked >>>

And to get everything back on track, is alcohol for cooking considered

appropriate for Lent?  Or is it one of the things that one must abstain

from? The campsite I am part of at Rowany Festival this year is doing a pot

luck Lenten Feast on Good Friday, and Drake and I are unsure of the exact

Lenten rules covering this period.<<<

 

Cooking in alcohol is admissible for Lent. Although indulgence or

extravagance was frowned upon, only meat and diary products are proscribed

by law. Personal abstinence/fasting is yet another matter.

 

On the other hand, although it's one of the two oldest 'feast' days in the

Christian year, Good (or Great or Holy) Friday is a feast of grief. So if

you were truly keeping with the idea of fasting / Lent perhaps a more simple

dish might be more appropriate! <grin>

 

Lucrezia

 

 

Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 10:53:37 -0700From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>Subject: Re: SC - list newbie/Seasonal food.Cassea wrote:>  I, however, have decided that sometime in the future there>should be a Lenten feast in my barony; I am starting to plan my research>strategy in the back of my brain.>>Does anyone know any good sources for period Lenten restrictions and>recipes? (And no, I haven't looked on the Florilegium yet.)The medieval European Christian fast-day restrictions were (this is based on reading a lot of period recipes, which often say what to do for a fish day or for a fish day in Lent):1. On ordinary fast days, also called fish days, you could eat fish but not beasts or fowl.2. On fast days in Lent, you could still eat fish but could not eat meat (as above), eggs, or dairy products.3. But--Sundays in Lent are not properly part of Lent (if you count from Ash Wednesday to Holy Saturday, you only get the forty days of Lent if you leave out the Sundays), so are not fast days.I've often thought that these were in part making a virtue out of necessity. By early spring, you aren't getting much eggs, you've eaten the salt meat and the surviving animals are the ones you are keeping to breed, the cows aren't giving milk yet, you've eaten most of the cheeses, and what little you have of these kinds of food you can easily save for Sundays.I haven't done a Lenten feast yet, though I have had the idea in the back of my mind for years. Various possible dishes (worked-out recipes in the Miscellany Cariadoc and I wrote, available on-line): there is a Spanish salmon casserole Brighid translated a while back which is really good and looks striking, or alternatively an English grilled salmon with onion sauce ("Salmon roste in Sauce"); Fried Broad Beans with sage and figs and greens; rice cooked with almond milk and fried almonds as a garnish; imitation noodles-and-cheese with an almond milk sauce taking the place of the cheese; a pie made with chickpeas; various sorts of fritters, cooked in oil (Losenges Fryes, or Frytour Blaunched); and end with hippocras (spiced wine) and wafers (we don't have a good wafer recipe, but other people do). What I really need is more good fish dishes.Elizabeth of Dendermonde/Betty Cook

 

Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 12:17:45 +0100

From: Christina Nevin <cnevin at caci.co.uk>

Subject: SC - list newbie/Seasonal food.

 

        K. wrote:

        I might be going off on a weird tangent here, but I'd like to know

        whether they held "feasts" (or, more to the point, whether there were

        any festival days or big events which would occasion a bigger-and-more-

        impressive-than-usual meal) during Lent? It seems to me as if the

     phrase "Lenten feast" is a bit of an oxymoron.

 

No, not a weird tangent. Yes, they did hold 'feasts' during the fast of

Lent. The Sunday in the middle of Lent, or Mid-Lent Sunday, was treated as a

feast, as was Palm Sunday (see also Elizabeth Cook's comments before re

Sundays in Lent). And although a 'fast' held the purpose of forcing people

to reflect on their sins, whereas in contradiction a 'feast' denoted a

celebration of some event or occasion, by the middle and near the end of

Lent people seriously needed something to cheer themselves up, which the

Church did realise and allow for with these feasts, the religious

justifications for which were the miracle of the fishes and loaves (Mid-Lent

Sunday) and the triumphal entry into Jerusalem of Jesus (Palm Sunday). And

the actual culinary restrictions by no means precluded a good cook creating

a feast from what was permissible under Lenten law.

 

        K. wrote:

        Sure, people would still eat communally, and large households (and

        especially the huge households attached to a royal court) would eat in a

        Great Hall with the a high table and numerous dishes and all that...but

        would they put on a big show of it, or would it be relatively austere?

 

It depended on the strength of the religious convictions of the lord/lady of

the house.

There are accounts of households where austere Lents were kept and others

where the Lenten rules were not broken but certainly bent like a Mobius

tube.

The one that sticks in my mind being a C.15th feast given by the Duke of

Cumberland (or Clarence? something beginning with C), attended by some

foreign dignitary and his staff who were rather shocked to be given goose -

because barnacle goose = fish, seeing as how it was born and raised at sea.

Hmm. <dubious eyebrow quirk>

Another loophole was the selling of indulgences for butter and diary

products in Lent, which was a very nice little money earner for the Church

and caused no small amount of acrimony, especially in the northern countries

where oil was generally more expensive and of poorer quality - indeed Martin

Luther cited butter indulgence selling as one of the corruptions of the

Roman Church.

Another interesting blip was the classification of beaver tail as fish and

Lent-edible - though the rest of it was not (!) and therefore couldn't be

served during Lent.

 

        It seems to me that a Lenten feast might be a good opportunity to

     hold a smaller, more intimate feast with less pomp and wossname.

        But this is based on no actual documentation, just a gut feeling.

     I'd love to see some actual primary source material on it.

 

There are also lots of accounts of monastic culinary excesses and evasions -

though I can't remember any Lenten ones offhand. Sorry, don't have my books

at work, but if you are interested I can send you some Lent-specific

references later as I'm actually researching it at the moment.

 

Overall I would say that the type of Lenten 'feast' ranged right across the

board - it would be perfectly apt for you to be a somewhat lax faster and

provide your household with a magnificent Lenten feast - maybe even with one

dish using butter as long as you could produce the requisite indulgence

<grin>.

 

Al Servizio Vostro, e del Sogno

Lucrezia

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Lady Lucrezia-Isabella di Freccia   |  mka Tina Nevin

Thamesreach Shire, The Isles, Drachenwald | London, UK

 

 

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 16:56:07 -0500 (EST)

From: <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] lent, wine, indulgences, de Nola

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

> When I was wrapping up the article I found myself wanting to finish  with

> a smart-ass comment about "This meal goes great with crusty bread and a

> nice white wine - assuming you've bought an indulgence for the wine!"

> but I realised I knew too little about indulgences to say that with

> confidence.

> 

> So my question is, could you buy indulgences to let you drink wine

> during Lent?  Was it even restricted, or am I thinking too modernly

> about alcohol?

 

According to the 1908 Catholic Encyclopedia

(http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09152a.htm )

wine was apparently forbidden in 'early days' in Lent but it doesn't sound

as if that restriction continued for ordinary laypeople:

 

"None the less St. Gregory writing to St. Augustine of England laid down

the rule, "We abstain from flesh meat, and from all things that come from

flesh, as milk, cheese, and eggs." This decision was afterwards enshrined

in the "Corpus Juris", and must be regarded as the common law of the

Church."

 

-- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net

 

 

Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 00:12:48 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Just one of those weird little questions...

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

<<< Brears mentions a recipe, I forget which and it hardly matters at this

point, which can be prepared in different versions for flesh, fish,

and lent days. The meat day version includes a small amount of honey,

and, if I remember rightly, the fish day version sugar. I forget what

was significant about the Lenten version.

 

My question is, apart from the obvious reality of where honey comes

from, has anyone run across any specific reference to honey being a

flesh-day, animal-type product to be avoided on other days? Again,

obviously that's just what it is, but every so often the logic doesn't

quite make sense to us, and we can't just assume that it would be

regarded as forbidden on fish days.

 

Adamantius >>>

 

This is a really interesting question.

 

The Orthodox Church considers honey to be a product of animals and prohibits

it during Lent.  Whether this is true of the Roman Catholic Church, I have

no idea.

 

IIRC, the Roman Catholic dietary rules are derived from the Benedictine

Rule, but I haven't found any reference as to how honey is viewed other than

it was used as a common food stuff.  Woolgar may have something on it, but I

haven't located much on the meat-fish-Lent issue.

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 05:59:19 -0700 (PDT)

From: Beth Ann Bretter <ladypeyton at yahoo.com>

Subject: [Sca-cooks]  Just one of those weird little questions...

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

 

What a great question.  The only answer I have found so far is this quote: "According to St. John Chrysostom in the 3rd.cent. "let no food derived from any spined thing pass your lips on these days of the Great Fast...""

 

Which is available in the Florilegium here: http://www.florilegium.org/?http%3A//www.florilegium.org/files/RELIGION/idxreligion.html

 

Since bees are not spined I think that it might be reasonable to assume honey was not prohibited.  On the other hand, medieval fasting was much more strict than modern day fasting and being meat free was not the only consideration.  

 

I don't really have an answer, but thank you for prompting me to borrow Fast and Feast from the university library.

 

Peyton

 

 

 

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 21:06:00 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] weird question - honey fast???

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

<<< Brears mentions a recipe snip which can be prepared in different versions

for flesh, fish, and lent days. The meat day version includes a small amount of honey snip

My question is, apart from the obvious reality of where honey comes

from, has anyone run across any specific reference to honey being a

flesh-day, animal-type product to be avoided on other days? Again,

obviously that's just what it is, but every so often the logic doesn't

quite make sense to us, and we can't just assume that it would be

regarded as forbidden on fish days.

 

Adamantius >>>

 

<<< This is a really interesting question.

 

The Orthodox Church considers honey to be a product of animals and

prohibits it during Lent.  Whether this is true of the Roman Catholic

Church, I have no idea.

 

IIRC, the Roman Catholic dietary rules are derived from the Benedictine

Rule, but I haven't found any reference as to how honey is viewed other

than it was used as a common food stuff.  Woolgar may have something on

it, but I haven't located much on the meat-fish-Lent issue.

 

Bear >>>

 

Please enlighten me I cannot not figure how anyone one can fathom honey as

a meat product.

Suey

------------

Bees are classed as animals because they are generated from the decaying

carcasses of oxen.  This belief appears to be of Ancient Greek origin and

presisted in Medieval thought.  Thus honey, like butter and lard, is a

product of animals.  Ovid and Vergil both tell the tale of Aristaeus and the

bees.

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 23:05:51 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] weird question - honey fast???

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

<<< Please enlighten me I cannot not figure how anyone one can fathom

honey as a meat product.

Suey >>>

 

Ok I hit Google Books this evening and came across a couple of unusual

documents buried in that vast archive of stuff.

 

From Senate Documents, Otherwise Publ. as Public Documents and Executive

Documents: 14th Congress, 1st Session-48th Congress, 2nd Session and

Special Session

By United States Congress. Senate

Published by , 1856

Original from Oxford University

Digitized Dec 7, 2006

 

 

BEES, WAX, AND HONEY.

 

BEE-CULTURE IN RUSSIA.

 

The rearing of bees is extensively carried on in the several parts

of European Russia, particularly in the central and southern governments,

as well as in the Polish and in the trans-Caucasian provinces.

This insect acclimatises up to a very high latitude, even in Siberia.

It was long thought that the climate of the latter country

was utterly unsuitable for the rearing of bees ; but experiments made

at the commencement of the present century in the governments of

Tomsk, Omsk, and Jenisseisk have proved the contrary. It has

greatly suffered, however, in some provinces, from the destruction of

the forests; for the bee prefers well wooded districts, where it is

protected

from the wind. The honey procured from the linden tree (

Tilia eurapced) is only obtained at the little town of Kowno, on the

river Niemen, in Lithuania, which is surrounded by an extensive forest

of these trees, and where the rearing occupies the principal attention

of the inhabitants. The Jews of Poland furnish a close imitation

of this honey, by bleaching the common kinds in the open air

during frosty weather.

The ceremonies of the Greek church, requiring a large consumption

of wax candles, greatly favor this branch of rural economy in

Russia, and preserve it from the decline to which it is exposed in

other countries, from the increasing use of stearine, oil, gas, and other

fluids for illuminating purposes. The peasants produce wax so

cheaply that, notwithstanding the consumption of this article has

greatly diminished abroad, it still continues to form an important

item of the commerce of the country ; but the exportation of honey

has considerably increased in consequence of the extended use of potato

syrup, which has also injured the honey trade in the interior.

The rearing of bees is now almost exclusively dependent on the

manufacture of candles for religious ceremonies, and on the consumption

of honey during Lent, it being then used instead of sugar, by the

strict observers of the fasts. The government encourages this branch

of rural industry, as affording to the peasant an extra source of income,

and has adopted various measures for the accomplishment of

this end. With the view of diffusing the requisite knowledge among

the people of the public domains, bee-hives, and a course of practical

instruction upon the subject of bee-culture, have been established at

several of the crown farms, and pupils are sent every year, at the expense

of the government, to the special school in Tschernigow,

founded for the purpose, in 1828.

 

See also

Commentaries on the Productive Forces of Russia

By Ludwik Te;goborski

Published by Longman, Brown, Green and Longmans, 1855

Original from the University of Michigan

Digitized Aug 4, 2006

 

So here we have honey being used instead of sugar during Lent in the

19th century; perhaps this is just the Eastern Orthodox Church. An Egg At Easter mentions that prior to the Revolution, the Russians ate only vegetables, honey, fruit, and bread during Lent.

The Domostroi also indicates that they ate honey during Lent.

 

Johnnae

 

 

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 23:08:37 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] weird question - honey fast???

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

More from

Google Books this evening

 

The Festal Year; Or, The Origin, History, Ceremonies and Meaning of the

Sundays, Seasons, Feasts and Festivals of the Church During the Year,

Explained for the People: Or, The Origin, History, Ceremonies and

Meaning of the Sundays, Seasons, Feasts and Festivals of the Church

During the Year ...

By James Luke Meagher

Published by Russell Brothers, 1883

 

Among the Greeks and the nations of the west of Asia,

on Septuagesima Sunday they published the rules and

regulations of Lent. From the following Monday they

use no meat, but eat what they call "White Meats," as

eggs, cheese, butter and things of that kind, while on the

Monday before Ash Wednesday, their Lent begins with

all its rigors. From that time they eat neither meat,

eggs, cheese or even fish. The only things allowed are

bread, fruits, honey, and for those who live near the sea,

shell-fish. Wine, for a long time forbidden, is drank no

more among them.

 

Johnnae

 

 

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 20:42:42 -0700

From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at jeffnet.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] weird question - honey fast???

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

Margaret Rendell wrote:

<<< well, it depends partly on whether you consider insects animals. Can you eat insects during lent?

Most modern vegans will not eat honey.

(For some of the reasoning behind this, see e.g.

http://www.basingstoke-beekeepers.org.uk/vegansoc.html )

 

This is of course, a modern attitude, but the question that is being asked is: did (any past groups of) Europeans ever feel this way about honey - that although it isn't animal flesh, it is a product from animals, and as such should be restricted during Lent in the same way that milk and butter are.

 

Margaret/Emma >>>

 

Some of the Cathars refused to eat honey- generally the 'Perfecti', who

were not allowed a lot of things. The rank-and-file generally held honey

to be harmless.

 

'Lainie

 

 

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 00:12:15 -0500

From: Gretchen Beck <grm at andrew.cmu.edu>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fish at feasts

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

--On Monday, November 24, 2008 11:00 PM -0600 Stefan li Rous

<StefanliRous at austin.rr.com> wrote:

<<< But aren't shrimp/seafood treated as the same as fish in religious

edicts? Or are crustaceans restricted at times that fish are not? Was tis

true in period as well? >>>

 

In Christian religious restrictions shellfish and scaled fish are all

equivalent. However, I believe shellfish are not kosher, and so would go

against Jewish religious restrictions.

 

toodles, margaret

 

 

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 00:17:12 -0500

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcarrollmann at gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fish at feasts

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 12:00 AM, Stefan li Rous

<StefanliRous at austin.rr.com> wrote:

<<< But aren't shrimp/seafood treated as the same as fish in religious edicts? >>>

 

Depends on which religion.  Shellfish are not kosher.  Same goes for

any other swimming critters that don't have  fins and scales.  No

shrimp, no lobster, no calamari.

 

<<< Or are crustaceans restricted at times that fish are not? Was tis true in

period as well? >>>

 

It was true for Jews in period.  And more to the point, there are SCA

members who would eat salmon or trout cooked in a non-kosher kitchen,

but would not eat shrimp.

--

Brighid ni Chiarain

 

 

Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 09:27:05 +0000 (GMT)

From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] medieval ascetics menus

 

--- Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com> schrieb am So, 4.10.2009:

Bear commented:

<<< Historically, veganism of that

period would likely have been practiced by ascetics with stricter dietary

practices than the most vegan of modern vegetarians. >>>

 

"with stricter dietary practices than the most vegan of

modern vegetarians"

 

WHAT were these guys (and gals?) eating? Seems easier to

say what was left than what they didn't eat. I tend of think

of a vegan diet as being extremely limited and if not done

with care, a good recipe for malnutrition.

----

 

Well, the point is that malnutrition wasn't a concern for medieval ascetics.. In some cases, it was the point of the exercise - punishing the body. In extreme cases, the worse you did, the better you felt.

 

There are accounts of people subsisting on nothing but bread and water, on nothing but wild herbs ('herba' meaning all manner of plants, probably excluding fruit), in some (probably legendary, in one case fraudulent) cases on nothing but the Eucharist. A near-vegan diet would have been quite commonplace among stricter monastic communities where not only the flesh of quadrupeds, but also dairy and eggs would be off the table and fish not eaten every day. The rule of Benedict that eventually won out in the West is fairly moderate in terms of asceticism, and a fair few individuals and communities have tried to top it.

 

I know of two books that look at the issue, though both mainly focus on women and look at it from a psychological and medical perspective. R. M. Bell: Holy Anorexia (Chicago 1985) and W. Vandereycken, R. van Deth & R. Meermann: Wunderm?dchen, Hungerk?nstler Magersucht, Eine Kulturgeschichte der Ess-St?rungen (Weinheim/Basel/Berlin 2003). Looking into Saints' lives can give you scary details on some of them.

 

giano

 

 

Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 16:07:56 +0200

From: Ana Vald?s <agora158 at gmail.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] medieval ascetics menus

 

I went to church today and the homily was about the young Antonius. He gave

all his wealth to the poor and lived as an eremite in the desert for many

years. He was the predecesor of the monastic orders. His diet, as it was

described by some of the writings of the Church fathers, was water from a

source nearby, wild honey and desert figs. Radical vegan?

Ana

 

 

Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 18:48:01 -0800

From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at jeffnet.org>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fasting for Lent

 

Liutgard said:

<<< I'm doing the full-out medieval fast. No meat, dairy, eggs. And I'm not

planning to cheat with soy-based fake food. I'm going to see if I can

eventually work my way into the 'one meal plus collation',>>>

 

Huh? What do you mean by "the 'one meal plus collation'"? collation?

=============

 

The 'collation' is a snack or very light meal before bed. Here's what

the Catholic Encyclopedia at New Advent says about it:

 

Still more material was the relaxation afforded by the introduction of

"collation". This seems to have begun in the ninth century, when the

Council of Aix la Chapelle

<http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01001a.htm#councils> sanctioned the

concession, even in monastic houses

<http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04340c.htm>;, of a draught of water or

other beverage in the evening to quench the thirst of those who were

exhausted by the manual labor of the day. From this small beginning a

much larger indulgence was gradually evolved. The principle of

/parvitas materiae/, i.e., that a small quantity of nourishment which

was not taken directly as a meal did not break the fast

<http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05789c.htm>;, was adopted by St.

Thomas Aquinas <http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14663b.htm>; and other

theologians <http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14580a.htm>;, and in the

course of centuries a recognized quantity of solid food, which

according to received authorities must not exceed eight ounces, has

come to be permitted after the midday repast. As this evening drink,

when first tolerated in the ninth-century monasteries

<http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04340c.htm>;, was taken at the hour at

which the "Collationes" (Conferences) of Abbot Cassian

<http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03404a.htm>; were being read aloud to

the brethren, this slight indulgence came to be known as a

"collation", and the name has continued since.

 

Liutgard

 

 

Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2012 13:44:54 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>

To: <yaini0625 at yahoo.com>,    "Cooks within the SCA"

        <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Kosher Laws

 

<<< How old are the Kosher laws? My apologies for not remembering the Islamic

name for the laws too.

Aelina >>>

 

The basis of Judaic dietary law (kashrut) are found in Exodus, Deuteronomy

and Leviticus.  According to Judaic tradition, this would place the origins

of the dietary law at least as early as the 14th Century BCE, although the

first written version was 400 to 600 years later.  Rabbinical

interpretations of the dietary law occur inb the Talmud as part of the

Mishna, the Jewish Oral Law, written down around 200 CE, and the Gemara, the

rabbinical elucidation of the Mishna from about 500 CE.

 

Islamic dietary law derives from the Qu'ran (written between 610 and 632

CE). The basic law is very similar to the Judaic dietary law.  The base law

is largely fixed, but the determination of whether a food not mentioned in

the Qu'ran is halal (lawful) or haram (unlawful) falls to the religious

judges. As there are four major sects of Islamic law, differences of

opinion do occur, so that one sect may see a food as halal while another

sees it as haram.  All sects recognize varying degrees under halal and

haram.

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 16:54:00 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sundays in Lent

 

<<< I've been studying feast menus from around the time of Henry V, and

have a question about them. Both Henry V and his bride Catherine of

Valois were apparently crowned in Lent, and if I have the dates right

(this depends on whether my sources agree on how to handle

Julian-Gregorian conversion), they were both crowned on Sundays.

 

My question is this: Both feasts were almost entirely of fish, with

one or two dishes of flesh. Does this mean that these Sundays were

fish days, and flesh was included by dispensation, or did most of each

menu amount to a voluntary fast?

--

Henry/Alex >>>

 

Answer may be this--

"The answer is that all of those 46 days are within Lent, yet not all of them are of Lent, in the sense that they are supposed to be days of fasting and penance. In the past, Christians observed Lent by imitating Christ's 40 days in the desert. As He fasted for 40 days, so did they. (See "Reader Question: Observing Lent Before Vatican II.") Today, the Church only requires Western Catholics to fast on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.

From the very earliest days, the Church has declared that Sunday, the day of Christ's Resurrection, is always a feast day, and therefore fasting is forbidden. Since there are six Sundays within Lent, we have to subtract them from the days of fasting. Forty-six minus six is forty.

 

That's why, in the West, Lent starts on Ash Wednesday--to allow a full 40 days of fasting before Easter Sunday."

 

http://catholicism.about.com/b/2008/02/29/reader-question-should-we-fast-on-sundays.htm

 

Within Lent, not all days were fast days.  Sundays are feast days in all Catholic churches, so the forty day fast was broken with a respite each Sunday (Cowie and Gummer ).  In the early church Saturday was excluded also, so there were fewer fast days in Lent.  Eastern Orthodox Christians maintained the pattern of excluding Saturday and Sunday, except for Holy Saturday, so they had  36 not 40 fast days (Cowie and Gummer ) (Henisch  p.31-32). http://keeleranderson.net/Hello/Lent/RecreatingLent.htm

 

Johnnae

 

 

Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 16:10:25 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sundays in Lent

 

During the Middle Ages, the Western Church followed the Roman practice of

observing forty weekdays of fasting (one meal a day generally taken after

sundown, although this was not a hard and fast rule) broken by Sundays.

Even on Sundays meat and milk products were prohibited.  So the coronation

meals likely represent normal Sunday fare with dispensation for the meat

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2013 15:17:02 -0600

From: James Prescott <prescotj at telusplanet.net>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sundays in Lent

 

Fish day:

 

"A Roman Catholic fast day on which fish were permitted but meat from

animals or birds was forbidden.  On more strict fast days, not even

cheese, eggs, milk, or butter were eaten.  Fast days, and their

strictness, depended upon country and century.  They usually included

the forty days of Lent, Ember Days, various other religious days, and

every Friday throughout the year.  Some people ignored these

restrictions; some people obtained exemptions; some people observed fast

days for medical reasons; and some religious people observed additional

fast days.  Saturday is technically a fish day, though the Popes have

often granted exemptions for many regions of the world.  Wednesday is

also sometimes designated as a fish day, such as in England during the

reign of Queen Elizabeth I."

 

My words, largely based on Herbermann et al. "Catholic Encyclopedia"

(1907-1913) under "abstinence", online version at:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/

 

Thorvald

 

 

Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2013 13:01:22 -0400 (EDT)

From: JIMCHEVAL at aol.com

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sundays in Lent

 

A little bit more on how unstable rules on eggs and dairy during fasting  

were in early centuries - this from the Catholic Church's official site:

 

"Nature of the fast  

Neither was there originally less divergence regarding the nature of the

_fast_ (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05789c.htm) . For example, the  

historian _Socrates_ (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14118b.htm)  (_Church  

HistoryV.22_ (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/26015.htm) ) tells of the

practice of the fifth century: "Some _abstain_

(http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01067a.htm) from every sort of creature that  has _life_

(http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09238c.htm) , while others of all  the living creatures eat of

fish only. Others eat birds as well as fish,  because, according to the

_Mosaic account of the  Creation_ (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07310a.htm) ,

they too sprang from the water; others _abstain_

(http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01067a.htm) from fruit covered by a hard shell and  from eggs. Some

eat dry bread only, others not even that; others again when they  have

_fasted_ (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05789c.htm)  to the ninth hour (three

o'clock) partake of various kinds of food". Amid this diversity some inclined

to the  extreme limits of rigor. _Epiphanius_

(http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13393b.htm) , _Palladius_ (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11425a.htm) ,

and the author  of the "Life of St. Melania the Younger" seem to

contemplate a state of things  in which ordinary _Christians_

(http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03712a.htm) were expected to pass twenty-four hours  or more

without food of any kind, especially during _Holy Week_

(http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07435a.htm) , while the more  austere actually subsisted during part

or the whole of Lent upon one or two  meals a week (see Rampolla, "Vita di.

S. Melania Giuniore", appendix xxv, p.  478). But the ordinary rule on

_fasting_ (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05789c.htm)  days was to take but one

meal a day and  that only in the evening, while meat and, in the early

centuries, wine were  entirely forbidden. During _Holy Week_

(http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07435a.htm) , or at least  on _Good Friday_

(http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06643a.htm) it was common to enjoin the xerophagi?, i.e., a

diet of  dry food, bread, salt, and vegetables.

There does not seem at the beginning to have been any prohibition of

lacticinia, as the passage  just quoted from _Socrates_

(http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14118b.htm) would show. Moreover, at a somewhat  later date, _Bede_

(http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02384a.htm) tells us of _Bishop Cedda_

(http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03475a.htm) [7th c],  that during Lent he

took only one meal a day consisting of "a little bread, a  hen's egg, and a

little milk mixed with water" (_Church History III.23_

(http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/26013.htm) ), while _Theodulphus of Orleans_

(http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14579b.htm) in  the eighth century regarded _abstinence_

(http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01067a.htm) from eggs, cheese, and fish as a

mark of exceptional _virtue_ (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15472a.htm) .

None the less _St. Gregory_ (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06780a.htm)

writing to _St. Augustine of  England_

(http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02081a.htm) laid down the rule,  "We _abstain_

(http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01067a.htm) from flesh meat, and from all things  that come from flesh, as

milk, cheese, and eggs." This decision was afterwards  enshrined in the _"Corpus

Juris"_ (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04391a.htm) , and must  be

regarded as the _common law_ (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09068a.htm) of the

_Church_ (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm) . Still exceptions  were

admitted, and _dispensations_ (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05041a.htm)  

to eat "lacticinia" were often granted  upon condition of making a

contribution to some pious work. These _dispensations_

(http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05041a.htm) were known in _Germany_

(http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06484b.htm) as Butterbriefe, and several _churches_

(http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03041a.htm) are said to have been partly built by  the proceeds of

such exceptions. One of the steeples of _Rouen_

(http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13208b.htm) _cathedral_ (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03438a.htm)  

was for this reason formerly known as  the Butter Tower. This general

prohibition of eggs and milk during Lent is  perpetuated in the popular custom of

_blessing_ (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02599b.htm) or making gifts of  

eggs at _Easter_ (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05224d.htm) , and in the

_English_ (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05445a.htm)  usage of eating

pancakes on _Shrove Tuesday_ (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13763a.htm) ."

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09152a.htm

 

(For those who care, this received ecclesiastical  approbation on October

1, 1910

Ecclesiastical approbation. Nihil Obstat. October 1, 1910. Remy Lafort,  

Censor. Imprimatur. +John M. Farley, Archbishop of New  York. )

 

Jim Chevallier

 

 

Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 11:55:46 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sundays in Lent

 

<<< On Jul 20, 2013, at 1:01 PM, JIMCHEVAL at aol.com wrote:

A little bit more on how unstable rules on eggs and dairy during fasting  

were in early centuries - this from the Catholic Church's official site:

 

"Nature of the fast  

Neither was there originally less divergence regarding the nature of the

_fast_ (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05789c.htm) . >>>

 

As a librarian, I have to mention that The New Advent website is not

"from the Catholic Church's official site". It is the result of a volunteer headed endeavor to place the 1913

Catholic Encyclopedia online.

 

Official Catholic material appears as "Copyright Libreria Editrice Vaticana " or from the http://www.vatican.va/phome_en.htm website.

 

Johnnae

 

 

Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 12:15:39 -0400 (EDT)

From: JIMCHEVAL at aol.com

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sundays in Lent

 

Ah! I was fooled by the careful balance of doctrine and research in the  

text itself, but also by the Church-related headlines now to be found on the  

main page.

 

It remains true that the text itself appears to be written  with careful

attention to the Church's dogma and includes Ecclesiastical  approbation for

each article. Still, to the degree that any dogma has changed  since 1913,

Catholics probably want to look further for the current position.  (And in

fact the editors appear to have sometimes added links to help with  that.)

 

I have to say as a thoroughly secular person, I find it impressive.  The

writers have to deal with some issues - like "Defender of the Faith"  

Charlemagne's ruttings - which could not have been comfortable for the devout  while adhering closely to the Church's positions. For a work constrained by  

dogma, it is remarkably accurate and a richly useful research tool.

 

It's interesting that Appleton - a rather important publishing company in  

itself - was apparently originally formed to create the Encyclopedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Encyclopedia

 

Apparently the more authoritative - and more wide-ranging - reference work  

is this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Catholic_Encyclopedia

 

Jim Chevallier

 

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