dairy-prod-msg - 3/30/08 Dairy products. milk, curds, cream, sour cream. NOTE: See also the files: cheese-msg, cheesemaking-msg, Cheese-Making-art, livestock-msg, butter-msg, cheese-lnks, clotted-cream-msg, fresh-cheeses-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: NOMAD at ins.infonet.net (The McDowell Clan) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Disgusting Recipes Date: 27 Feb 1995 01:23:06 GMT hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu says... >Bill Tuttle (maclain at mindspring.com) wrote: >: Can anyone tell me about period use of cow's milk? I don't remember ever >: hearing it mentioned as a common drink. Why is that? > >Here are some possibilities to consider: > >- It needed no preparation before consumption and therefore was unlikely >to be mentioned in cookbooks. > >- It was considered a non-prestige drink and therefore was not served in >the contexts for which records were made (e.g., royal banquets). > >I'm not saying that either of these is "the" answer, just that they are >some of the factors to consider. In fact, you _can_ (with a little >effort) find references to the everyday use of milk as a beverage. Off >the top of my head, I can pull up a literary reference in the medieval >Welsh tale "The Dream of Rhonabwy" where a miserly meal is described as >consisting of "barley bread, cheese, and watered milk". > >Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn The following is an excert from Fabulous Feasts, Medieval cookery and Ceremony by Madeliene Pelner Cosman. ISBN: 0-8076-0898-X. Cow's milk, but especially sheep's and goat's, was used plain or skimmed or creamed or "crudded" or "clotted. Not only for making butters and cheeses (the so-called "white meat" or "white food"), milk curds were added to puddings and sauces. Milk heated, combined with wine or ale and spices, and so curdled, was known as posset, drunk alone or, in turn, added to other recipes. Ground nuts boiled in milk yielded both a drink and a stock for soups and sauces; one of several forms of almond was so prepared. Padraigh, newbie in training. Deodar, Calontir. From: CXYB76A at prodigy.com (Elizabeth Estep) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Dinner in Poland in 1220 Date: 14 Jul 1995 01:06:37 GMT I don't know anything about Polish food, but I do know that England, 14th century, milk might have served as a "caudle" a sweetened or enriched flavored milk drink. I'm not sure if this would have been served at a feast per se, as it seems to be a drink for invalids, but it might have been made up especially for someone old, young, or sick who attended the feast, or requested by someone (with the clout to the get the kitchen to bother) who wanted it. I've tried caudles a couple of times at home, and my husband liked them as a sweetisht drink, the same way he likes chocolate milk. ELIZABETH ESTEP CXYB76A at prodigy.com ska Angharad ferch Tangwystl From: Philip E Cutone <flip+ at andrew.cmu.edu> Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:27:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: SC - An Introduction and a question. The domestroi mentions various ways fruits are preserved/cooked. <snip of referances to fruit> just to throw one more point toward butter in period: it talks of croutons fried in butter(67) the parenthesized numbers are chapters, for the interested. please note this was from a very quick browse through.... and typed rather quickly as well... Filip of the Marche Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:57:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy at abel.MATH.HARVARD.EDU> Subject: Re: SC - Re: curds, was-A real sieg how do you make fresh curds? are they like cottage cheese? Milk is a complex structure, of water, proteins, fats, sugars and stuff. It's really quite neat. One of the principle protein combinations in milk is called casein. It can be coagulated into a solid white mass, called curds. There are two basic mechanisms for doing this. One is to add a small amount of sour/acid, and heat gently. Another is to use an enzymatic method, such as the chemical "rennet" which is found in the stomach lining of many farm animals. Many of the forms of cheese we consume are hardened variations on curds, and processed curds. Cottage cheese is flavored and otherwise intact curds. But it is hardly ever fresh, and it is often salted or otherwise spiced. The remains of the milk, after curds are made and removed, is a clear and protein rich liquid, called whey. You can find whey if you purchase a live culture yogurt (such as I have in my hand...) and let it warm gently. They whey is the thick clear liquid that separates out. Tibor Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:54:19 -0500 From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter) Subject: Re: SC - Re: curds, was-A real sieg Hi, Katerine here. Brid asks how you make fresh curds, and whether they are like cottage cheese. On the first question: well, if you have raw (that is, unhomogenized) milk, it's relatively easy. Curds are the lumps that form out of milk with the addition of acid. Rennet works *very* well; but you can also get them with a few drops of vinegar, or lemon juice, or verjuice, or so on. Unfortunately, if the milk is homogenized, you have to add much more, and the curds just aren't the same when they form. As to whether they're like cottage cheese: if you look on those tubs they sell, they're labeled "aged". So the answer is: curds are a *fresh* form of the sort of thing they *age* to get the lumps in cottage cheese. No, cottage cheese doesn't work great in this recipe. But it can be used. Cheers, - -- Katerine/Terry Date: Wed, 13 Aug 97 13:58:46 -0700 From: chuck_diters at mail.fws.gov Subject: Re[2]: SC - lombardy custard Katerine/Terry wrote: (snip) Since cream in those days was neither pasteurized nor combined with milk (as even modern heavy cream is, because dairies can legally do it and save money thereby), my suspicion is that they would have been using a much heavier cream, and the straining may have been encouraging the fats to harden, thickening it further, rather than introducing air. (snip) I recall a particularly tasty dessert at a restaurant on Ile d'Orleans called L'Atre (this was in the late 60's) that consisted simply of fresh bread with maple sugar, run under a broiler, and topped with the heaviest of heavy cream from the farm's own cows. As I recall, the cream was not thickened in any mechanical way, and already had nearly the consistency of modern "whipped" cream. (In other words, I suspect K/T is close to the mark here.) Chuck/Bjarni ************************************************************************ Chuck Diters/Bjarni Edwardsson West/Oertha/Eskalya Shadowood Manor, 9541 Victor Road, Anchorage, AK 99515-1470 ph: (907)344-5753 Email: chuck_diters at mail.fws.gov Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 17:09:33 -0500 From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter) Subject: Re: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #245 Hi, Katerine here. Snipping from Aiofe's response to Adamantius: >For that matter, who says that our cream was the consistency of their cream, I, for one, am middling certain it wasn't. Modern cream is homogenized, which affects consistency. It is also thinnned down to legally acceptable levels. In fact, modern cream isn't much thicker than the stuff that rose to the top of milk bottles we got in England 35 years ago -- and that was milk from which much of the cream had already been removed. I suspect that raw cream carefully extracted from fresh raw milk is *much* heavier than the heaviest you can buy at the supermarket. Modern dairies economize by giving us much weaker stuff. I also suspect that homogenization affects the readiness of cream to clot. - -- Katerine/Terry Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 18:10:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Uduido at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Re:Crustade Lombarde, An Inspiration turned Sour In a message dated 97-08-21 08:36:55 EDT, Adamantius wrote: << This isn't my normal way of solving problems like this. I offer it only as a consolation prize... . >> Ok, folks. I went visiting a farmer friend and talked him out of a gallon of gurnsey milk. I let it stand in the fridge for 72 hours. and then carefully removed the layer of cream on top. This cream is a) very thick and b) will hold a small egg on top if carefully slid unto it. I did not go any further but I thought that it would be something to think about. That is to say the small cattle of period probably produced milk wich was richer in cream and their chickens definately produced smaller eggs. I don't know if this will help but that is what I have discovered so far. Unfortunately after 3 weeks of vacation I don't have the time needed to further experiment with this one. :-( Lord Ras Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 19:02:03 -0500 From: maddie teller-kook <meadhbh at io.com> Subject: Re: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #245 Terry Nutter wrote: > Hi, Katerine here. Snipping from Aiofe's response to Adamantius: > > I, for one, am middling certain it wasn't. Modern cream is homogenized, > which affects consistency. It is also thinnned down to legally acceptable > levels. In fact, modern cream isn't much thicker than the stuff that > rose to the top of milk bottles we got in England 35 years ago -- and > that was milk from which much of the cream had already been removed. A dairy in Central Texas sells unhomogonized cream. It is very, very thick. I wonder if this product would produce the desired results! It may form curds with the addition of the parsley. meadhbh Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 09:02:31 -0600 (MDT) From: Mary Morman <memorman at oldcolo.com> Subject: SC - real cream Back in the dark ages when my children were babies, I knew a woman who owned two jersey cows. She milked daily, pasteurized, and then sold the milk and cream. I used to get two gallons of milk (with cream rising to the top) and a pint mayonaise jar of real cream every week. Now this cream would not pour. It was more the consistency of soft butter or modern sour cream. You had to scoop it out of the jar with a big spoon. You could whip it, and it didn't take a lot of whipping to 'puff' but would turn to butter in a trice. If this is the kind of cream that period cooks were working with, then, yes, it would support an egg right off with no problem and no additives. And also, why bother to whip it when it's already the consistency of creme anglaise or pastry filling? elaina Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:16:47 -0500 (EST) From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: SC - Sour Cream << Also, is sour cream period, or is that a different breed of cat from period stuff, too? >> If you leave unhomogonized, raw milk on the counter over night the cream rises. The milk and cream also sour. Thus you have sour cream. BTW, soured milk is the "traditional way of making butter. It yields the best buttermilk in the world and the butter itself is, IMO, 100 steps ahead of the "sweet" butter available in most supermarkets today with regard to flavor. Ras Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 21:19:22 -0500 From: margali <margali at 99main.com> Subject: Re: SC - Sour Cream LrdRas at aol.com wrote: > << Also, is sour cream period, or is that a > different breed of cat from period stuff, too? >> > > If you leave unhomogonized, raw milk on the counter over night the > cream rises. The milk and cream also sour. Thus you have sour cream. GIANT HORRENDOUS GAAAAKKKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Milk that has been pasteurized will not sour into sour cream, it gathers airborne microbes that are NOT lactobacillus acidoph., and they taste nasty. If you ask any cheesemaker, you inoculate with the correct bacillus and then you let it sour. Thus is made proper sour cream, it is essentially a variant of yoghurt. off my soap box and nipping back under my rock, away from the nasty rotting milk left out on the counter margali Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 20:40:14 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Sour Cream LrdRas at aol.com wrote: > If you leave unhomogonized, raw milk on the counter over night the > cream rises. The milk and cream also sour. Thus you have sour cream. Actually, Ras, you get cream, which will probably have soured without the benefit of the microbes that give dairy sour cream (and I know I used the term "dairy sour" cream specifically to make this distinction) its distinctive flavor. In other words, you get cream that is sour, but not sour cream. Margali, whereever did you find that unhomogenized, raw, pasteurized milk that rots on the counter ; ) ? Seriously, though, some Middle Eastern groceries sell a Lebanese cream yogurt called Laban or labneh. Labneh just means yogurt, pretty much, so you will have to read the ingredients to determine whether it is milk yogurt or cream yogurt. Cream Laban is great, but not quite the same as smetana, the Russian (I think) stuff we've come to know as sour cream. I believe there's a different bug involved. Adamantius Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 21:06:44 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Sour Cream Varju at aol.com wrote: > << Cream Laban is great, but not quite the same as > smetana, the Russian (I think) stuff we've come to know as sour cream. I > believe there's a different bug involved >> > > Would this account for different textures and consistancies? I know that > Hungarian tefol (sour cream) is much thinner and generally had the > consistancy of thick yoghurt. Even at its thickest it was nothing like our > sour cream. > > Noemi A different bacterium might well account for differences in consistency. So might differences in the cream itself, prior to souring (i.e. butterfat content, or even a different animal source). Adamantius Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 10:40:24 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: SC - Re: Sour Cream Woeller D wrote: > P.S. still haven't figured out, from all of the replies on the sour > cream string, if it, or what can be gotten in stores, is anywhere near > period. The Official Answer is "We don't know." The apparent real answer is, probably not, unless you are of Russian or Polish or other Eastern European persona, and perhaps not even then. But it hasn't been ruled out, either. What we call sour cream is really smetana, a Russian preparation that probably became widely known in Europe only after the Crimean War, with an extra boost when a lot of Russian aristocrats moved to France after the Russian Revolution. How long smetana has been eaten in Russia, I have no idea. Adamantius Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 17:46:13 -0800 From: "Crystal A. Isaac" <crystal at pdr-is.com> Subject: Re: SC - redaction challenge/milk question kat wrote: snip > Wow! Could "new Milke warme" actually refer to milk straight from the cow, so to speak? I mean, that's as new as it gets; and it's certainly warm at the time (don't know exact cow temperature, but assume prolly 90+ degrees)... > > Did they do that??? You bet they did. Pasturization is new and refrigeration is even newer. But why assume cow milk? They drank sheep and goat milk too. I havn't been able to document arabic peoples drinking milk, but it's easy for europeans. Sources for the purists: Anthimus. _De Observatio Ciborum_. circa 526CE. Translated by Weber, Shirley Howard. Anthimus, De Observatio Ciborum: Text, Commentary and Glossary with a Study of the Latinity. Dissertation &. Published by E.J. Brill Ltd., Leiden 1924. LXXVI The Same (Of Milk) Of milk, -- for well people, -- if anyone wishes to drink raw milk, let him have mixed with it wine or mead, and if there is not any of these drinks, let a little salt be put in, and it does not then congeal inside &. If, however, it is drunk as it is milked, warm, in this way it does no harm. If a little honey or wine be mixed with it, it is better to take. And if one wished to act more carefully, let [a cow or] a goat or a sheep be milked in his presence; & and as the milk is drawn is should not get cold, but be drunk warm. Ratti, Oscar. and Westbrook, Adele. Translators and adaptors. _The Medieval Health Handbook_. Orginal Italian edition _Tacinum Sanitatis_. Lusia Arano, editor. Publsihed by George Braziller, Inc. New York. 1976 ISBN 0-8076-0808-4 (Text and pictures from Tacuinas of the Po valley, circa 1390CE.) 35 Sweet Milk (Lac Dulce) Nature: Temperate and sweet when warm. Optimum: That from young sheep. Usefulness: For the chest and lungs. Dangers: For fevers. Neutralization of the dangers: With seedless raisins. (f. 37v) Crystal of the Westermark Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 08:22:23 -0600 (CST) From: alysk at ix.netcom.com (Elise Fleming) Subject: SC - Period Dairying, Etc. Greetings. For the person looking for information on period dairy practices and cheesemaking try _The English Housewife_ by Gervase Markham, 1615. There is a good edition out by Michael Best, McGill-Queen's University Press, 1986, ISBN 0-7735-0582-2. He has a chapter on the practices that a good housewife should follow. While I don't believe there are "recipes" per se he does mention certain types of cheeses and what one should do with the whey, curds, etc. There is also another fascinating book, _The Country House Kitchen, 1650-1900_, edited by Sambrook and Brears. While the dates indicate OOP, this book takes some of the manors belonging to England's National Trust and details the architectural plans and layout of the kitchens and related rooms. Tucked in with all the OOP material are references to period practices. There are numerous references to dairies and dairying. I don't know where one might find the book. It is esoteric enough that most public libraries wouldn't have it and expensive enough that most SCAers wouldn't have it. I have a copy, but then, I'm single and a pack rat for books! If there's something specific - dairy layout, items needed for a "perfect" dairy or dairyroom, post me and I will send what I can find, time willing. Alys Katharine Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 18:24:12 EST From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Persian milk Seton1355 at aol.com writes: << I have been reading rcipes that include "Persian milk." Does anyone know what this is? Many thanks Phillipa Seton >> Yogurt. Ras Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:19:14 EDT From: kathe1 at juno.com (Kathleen Everitt) Subject: Re: SC - Swithin Cream? On Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:40:13 +0100 (BST) Daria Anne Rakowski <dar3 at st-andrews.ac.uk> writes: >I have been requested to find a recipe for 'Swithin Cream' and I have >never heard of it and haven't been able to find it so far. It includes >such things as Dandelion heads, cream, sugar, etc.(all of which we >have in abundance!) Proportions? Sources? Thank-you in advance. > >Coll Swithin Cream Peels of 2 large lemons, grated 10 dandelion flowers 2 cups heavy whipping cream 1/8 tsp. salt 3/4 c sugar Beat the cream, add salt and sugar, fold in lemon peel and flower petals. It's from Medieval Holidays & Festivals by Madeleine Pelner Cosman. Yes, the same Madeleine Pelner Cosman who did Fabulous Feasts. No documentation. I've never seen anything like it in a good reference. But it tastes very good. (Hey! I was given the book as a gift before I knew any better and I made a lot of the recipes in it. Some of them aren't bad. The peppermint rice is a little weird. So is the Pasta and Apricot Butter. Need I say more?) Julleran Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 15:20:51 -0500 From: "Suzanne Berry"<sberry at primavera.com> Subject: SC - SC: Creamline milk information Greetings, good gentles. I'm usually a lurker, and I don't know if this will be useful to anyone, but.... A couple of months back I had posted asking if anyone knew anything about milk being called "creamline milk" as I had found it here, from a local dairy. I've finally had time to experiment with it, and figured others might be able to use the info. It appears to be pasteruized, NONhomogenized milk, completely unskimmed. A one-quart bottle, allowed to sit in the fridge for a day or two, develops a sufficiently thick plug of solid cream that the milk cannot be poured until you spoon out the cream. I made clotted cream last night by m'lady Aoife's method, and came out with about 2-3 times the cream obtained when using "whole" milk, to my surprise and joy. Oh, and the discussions we were having about what you did to cream to make it support an egg? (in reference to a redaction) the "plug" of cream I mentioned above definitely would support an egg without doing anything to it at all. Think of the texture of whipped butter, and that's about what it's like. - - Aislinn Barony of Stonemarche East Kingdom Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 18:00:20 EDT From: Mordonna22 at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Greetings Marian.DeBorah.Rosenberg at washcoll.edu writes: > There is all this talk of getting the super-pasteurized Creamline milk. > Wouldn't powdered milk work just as well? EWWWWWWWWWW! NO! Cream line milk is pastuerized, but not homogenized. That means that the germs have been cooked, but the cream and whey are not mixed, so the cream gradually floats to the top and forms a "plug". Most cows produce milk that is higher in butterfat than 4%. In standard homogenized milk found in the grocery, they remove a lot of the cream, and homogenize it so the cream does not separate. What we are talking about here is milk that has a fairly high butterfat content and is not homogenized, so one can skim the cream off the top and use it for recipes calling for cream. Powdered milk is almost always low-to-none in butterfat. and besides, it tastes nasty. This stuff tastes wonderful. Mordonna Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 06:12:00 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - butterkase? > << Ok, newbie cook question time. What's "butterkase"? >> IIRC (and I admit memory is poor on this one), butterkase is a hard rind cheese similar in shape to provolone. There is a square of butter in the center of the cheese. It allows one to keep butter for extended periods without refrigeration. The technique was developed for the Hanseatic trade. I haven't seen any for years and I may have put the wrong name to it. Bear Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 20:39:57 -0800 From: Susan Browning <swbro at mail.telis.org> Subject: SC - Medieval Milk >Now, back to medieval food stuff...do you guys think that modern grocery store milk is anything like real medieval milk? Why or why not? Not. I grew up on raw cow's milk. We (me as little as possible) did the milking, poured the warm milk through a large funnel like strainer with a filter similar to a coffee filter, and poured it into jars. A totally different flavor, smell and texture than store bought milk. For one thing, you had to stir the bits of cream back into the milk as you drank. Hope this helps. Eleanor d'Aubrecicourt Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 10:28:46 EST From: Mordonna22 at aol.com Subject: Re: SC Life span of cows was... acrouss at gte.net writes: > Now, back to medieval food stuff...do you guys think that modern grocery > store milk is anything like real medieval milk? Why or why not? And if not, > how can we approximate the real deal? Or do we care? I think we do care. 1) Milk from all the older, "unimproved" breeds is naturally much higher in butterfat. It is true that milk sold in today's grocery stores as "whole" milk has its butterfat content reduced to 4%. even Holstein milk is usually higher than that. 2) Cooked (read pasteurized) milk tastes differently and cooks differently than fresh, raw milk. Now, I do care about the difference, but I refuse to use fresh, unpasteurized milk to my fighters, and I am sure no one wants to take a chance on serving it to their feasters. So, if a recipe calls for milk, I usually substitute a portion of it with heavy whipping cream. Mordonna DuBois Warrior Haven Barony of Atenveldt Kingdom of Atenveldt Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 11:35:40 -0500 From: "Philippa Alderton" <phlip at bright.net> Subject: SC - Modern vs. Medieval milk and cattle- Long Anne-Marie asks: >Now, back to medieval food stuff...do you guys think that modern grocery store milk is anything like real medieval milk? Why or why not? And if not, how can we approximate the real deal? Or do we care?< First off, our modern milk is pasteurized and homogenized, which medieval milk was not. Further, our modern milk is set to very tight standards of butterfat, which again, medieval milk was not. Modern milk is produced under very high sanitation standards by cows which have been bred for high milk production. The milk is then relieved of its butterfat, and sold as whole milk, or relieved of higher amounts of butterfat, and sold as 1%, 2%, or skim milk. Most modern commercial dairies remove all butterfat, and return a certain amount, as needed, to the batch in order to make the milk adhere to US standards for whatever grade of (drinking) milk being sold. Many of the older people I know sat that modern "whole" milk has much less butterfat than what they had as kids, and I tend to agree. Different breeds of cattle also produce different amounts of butterfat as well. I happen to be a particular fan of Jersey milk, when I can get it, because of its particular richness. The quality of milk varies not only by breed, but by what the cow eats- for all my love of milk, onions, and garlic, even I won't drink the milk of a cow which has gotten into wild onions!!!!! The Jersey, btw, is an interesting breed- it was originally developed, as I understand it, as a breed which is both useful for milk, and for meat. Another breed whose milk I thoroughly enjoy is that of the Murray Grey, a beef breed, which developed as a sport from the Black Angus- it is reknowned for its high meat to bone ratio (meaning more meat by weight when you butcher), its disease resistance and ability to deal with harsh conditions, its ability to interbreed with other breeds, whether milk or beef varieties, and improve them, and the fact that its calves are born small (meaning easy birthings), but gain weight rapidly due to the high quality of their milk. Which brings me back around to the original intent of the question Anne-Marie posed, the difference between modern and period milk. First off, their cattle were pretty much any old cattle, bred for both meat and milk, not to mention usage as oxen- all around beasties. In modern times, we rarely use oxen, and if we raise cattle, we're raising them for meat, milk, and veal, veal being an offshoot of the milk industry- male calves which are sold since they will prevent the mothers from milking ( a Momma cow CAN stop the milk flowing by an act of will, if she has a calf she wants to feed). Further, Medieval cattle were not fed as "scientifically" and consistantly as our cattle are, so their milk would vary in quality by the season and the forage they could get. And now, pasteurization and homogenization. Pasteurization was developed by Louis Pasteur as a method for helping milk keep longer- all it is, is heat treating the milk so all the little beasties in it die, and don't cause it to spoil as quickly. We moderns are much smarter than that- we seldom have little beasties in the milk, we've replaced them with all sorts of hormones and chemicals. Homogenization is a process which agitates the milk so that the butterfat doesn't separate out- after all, if it did that, we could make our own butter, cream, and skim milk, thus depriving businessfolk every where of an easy buck. In the recipes I've been redacting for personal, and hopefully, later feast, usage, I have been using whole milk, and keeping cream on hand, in case I feel the recipe needs a bit more butterfat. I suspect that if I ever do a feast, I'll get raw milk from a friend of mine who raises cows organically locally, and pasteurize it myself, as I do my own milk, as I have the time. Phlip Caer Frig Barony of the Middle Marches Middle Kingdom Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 18:16:48 EST From: Jgoldsp at aol.com Subject: Re: SC Life span of cows was... Just some info in my area of the world we can get specific types of creams at whole foods stores for example I buy jersey cow heavy cream which is much more thicker and very yellow compared to the sanitized and white heavy cream found in supermarkets. It is pasteurized but not homogenized neither is the milk in this particular brand and it is fun and interesting to use but a tad expensive. Joram Barony of the Bridge,[new England] Kingdom of the East Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 18:03:17 -0500 From: Stefan li Rous <stefan at texas.net> Subject: SC - medieval milk Anne-Marie asks: >Now, back to medieval food stuff...do you guys think that modern grocery store milk is anything like real medieval milk? Why or why not? And if not, how can we approximate the real deal? Or do we care?< In reading Waverly Root's "Food", I note he comments: The medieval world used little milk, partly because medieval cows did well to produce enough of it in a week to make a pound of butter. England had more milk than most other countries, and referred to it as "white meat". Perhaps this would account for the scarcity of butter mentioned in some cookbooks mentioned here earlier. He also backs up some of what others have said here in "Alas, every 'improvement' which has been effected in the handling of milk has been paid for by a deterioration of its taste-even in the case of pasteurization...." "One may ask oneself wistfully whether, if the tuberculin test had come in twenty years before pasteurization instead of the other way around, we would not be drinking tastier milk today" And more unusually: "In the Middle Ages children were sometimes put to suckle a sow, and vice versa; I have seen an old engraving showing a woman giving one breast to her child and the other to a piglet." Lord Stefan li Rous Ansteorra stefan at texas.net Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 07:01:39 EST From: Mordonna22 at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Scottish/british food terms Devra at aol.com writes: > I also understand that certain breeds of cow (notably the Jersey > actually found on the Isle of Jersey) naturally give cream much thicker > and richer than we are accustomed to here. Actually, the Jersey Breed (Which did originate on the Isle of Jersey) does produce milk higher in butterfat than most other dairy breeds (Such as the Holstein.) Doesn't mean the resulting cream is richer, simply that you can get more cream per pint of milk. For comparison's sake, when we were dairying, our registered Holsteins averaged 5 to 8 gallons of 4% to 5% butterfat milk per milking. Our registered Jerseys averaged 3 to 5 gallons of 7% to 8% butterfat milk per day. We're talking US gallons, at about 8.6 lbs of milk per gallon, so our best Holstein producer gave almost 3 1/2 lbs of butterfat per day. Her Jersey counterpart (who was a ribbon winner several times in our county) gave the same amount of butterfat in 5/8 the amount of milk. Since, in order to make milk, you allow the butterfat to rise and settle, then skim it off, the percent butterfat of the cream is not related to the percent butterfat of the milk. However the total amount you can get from a given amount does. The richness of cream has more to do with the method of preparing it than with the kind of milk you start with. Milk taken directly from the cow, warm, allowed to sit overnight, then skimmed produces a far superior product than anything I've ever found in a grocery. Mordonna Warrior Haven Atenveldt Atenveldt (Phoenix, AZ) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:50:21 -0000 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" <nannar at isholf.is> Subject: Re: SC - "bog butter" ><< And completely unsalted, >> > >On what basis do you make this statement? In Iceland, butter was never salted until the 19th century. Neither was fish, and meat rarely. We used other methods of preservation, as almost all salt had to be imported and was simply too expensive for ordinary people. Yet this butter was not only a great part of our diet (the usual allotment for a working man was half a pound per day) but was also used for many financial transactions. Rents were usually paid in butter, for instance. Nanna Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 14:57:30 -0800 From: "James L. Matterer" <jlmatterer at labyrinth.net> Subject: Re: SC - Bread and Circuses > And, FWIW, the whole cheese/bread/butter thing at the beginning of a > meal seems to be way off prevailing medieval European medical theory > (dairy products, especially cheeses and cheese dishes, would normally be > served at or near the end of the meal to close the chest and stomach up > while digesting, and I've seen no evidence of butter being spread on > bread in medieval Europe, and some evidence to suggest it was not). > > Adamantius I'm afraid I have to disagree with this somewhat. John Russell's Boke of Nurture clearly states that butter is eaten with bread: "Buttir is an holsem mete, first and eke last, for he will a stomak kepe & helpe poyson a-wey to cast, also he norishethe a man to be laske and evy humerus to wast, and with white bred he wille kepe thy mouthe in tast." "Butter is a wholesome food, at the beginning and end of a meal, for it fortifies the stomach and protects it from poisons; it also nourishes by opening the stomach and clears away ill humours - and on white bread it will add relish to eating." Scully uses this quote in "The Art of Cookery in the Middle Ages" to show that bread & butter were used as an apertif to begin the meal. Dyetary of Helth (Andrew Boorde, 1490-1549) also recommends butter to begin the day with: "Butter is made of crayme, and is moyste of operacion; it is good to eate in the mornyng before other meates." Huen - -- A Boke of Gode Cookery http://www.labs.net/dmccormick/huen.htm Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 13:13:56 -0800 From: "James L. Matterer" <jlmatterer at labyrinth.net> Subject: Re: SC - Dairy Products (long) Leafing through Food & Feast in Medieval England by P. W. Hammond, I found several interesting comments. Hammond says that most butter was used by cooks for cooking purposes; in great households butter was made available to members of the family but usually not to the servants; most peasants had access to some sort of butter; in 1289 carters on Ferring Manor, Sussex, had a morning meal of rye bread with ale & cheese, at noon they received bread, ale, and a dish of fish or meat, and in the evening they were given a drink only (no butter for these poor fellows, but cheese in the morning). This book also has an interesting 15th c. illustration of a peasant man scooping out butter from a large pot suspended over a fire. The only reference to butter I've found in the writings of Chaucer is for the butterfly! He mentions cheese quite a bit, though. Huen - -- A Boke of Gode Cookery http://www.labs.net/dmccormick/huen.htm Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:59:12 EST From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Dairy Products (long) jlmatterer at labyrinth.net writes: << but cheese in the morning). >> This makes perfect sense. If a worker were going to the fields for the day , the eating of cheese would be somewhat of an assurance that he wouldn't have to use the privy too often. <<This book also has an interesting 15th c. illustration of a peasant man scooping out butter from a large pot suspended over a fire. >> Could it be possible that this person is scooping curds or freshly made cheese from the pot over the fire since heating is a step in cheese making? Unless there is accompanying text that specifies 'butter' I would be more inclined to think that cheese would be the more correct interpretation. Ras Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 18:53:15 -0800 From: "James L. Matterer" <jlmatterer at labyrinth.net> Subject: Re: SC - Dairy Products (long) > <<This book also has an interesting 15th c. > illustration of a peasant man scooping out butter from a large pot > suspended over a fire. >> > > Could it be possible that this person is scooping curds or freshly made cheese > from the pot over the fire since heating is a step in cheese making? Unless > there is accompanying text that specifies 'butter' I would be more inclined > to think that cheese would be the more correct interpretation. > > Ras The text accompanying the picture says "Man spooning out butter." It is from the Tacuinun Santitatis. The opening word calligraphed on the period picture is "Butium." My latin is not so good - is this butter? Huen Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 21:04:48 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Dairy Products (long) > The text accompanying the picture says "Man spooning out butter." It is > from the Tacuinun Santitatis. The opening word calligraphed on the > period picture is "Butium." My latin is not so good - is this butter? > > Huen That would be the Liege Tacuinum, #36, which is captioned "Butirum". Yes, that's butter. As for why it is suspended over a fire, one possibility is that what we are seeing being vended is clarified butter. Another possibility is that this butter is made along the lines of clotted cream, slightly soured and heated to break the emulsion, and then lifted off the surface. Adamantius Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 20:09:47 -0400 From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow) Subject: Re: SC - Whipped Cream >I've just recieved my copy of Pleyn Delit, and I love it : ) >There are a couple of question marks though - the authors repeatedly state >that medieval cooks did not whip either cream or eggwhite. Does anyone >know if this is really true? >I find it hard to believe > >Lady Uta Hello! I've got a recipe for Crustade Lumbard (Harl. 279, Dyuerse Bake metis, #17) that says "Take gode Creme, & leuys of Percely, & Eyroun, [th]e [3]olkys & [th]e whyte, & breke hem [th]er-to, & strayne [th]orwe a straynoure, tyl it be so styf [th]at it wol bere hym-self..." If the phrase "tyl it be so styf [th]at it wol bere hym-self..." is referring to the cream, then this is the earliest mention of whipped cream that I've found yet. (c. 1430) There's an illustration from Il Cuoco Segreto..., 1570, showing a cook whipping cream with a whisk. I posted that illustration here: http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/food-art/cheese_and_butter.gif Cindy Renfrow/Sincgiefu renfrow at skylands.net Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 16:58:07 EST From: ChannonM at aol.com Subject: SC - Re: drinks I am serving a 12th C Irish feast Mar 25 and am considering serving a few different things. I'd like the lists opinion. Soft Cider, slightly warmed (maybe with some lemon slices, but I'm trying not to have spices in it in order to have the drinks refreshing) Milk - my references abound with the use of milk, cows were VERY popular,and unless you are slaughtering them all, you're going to have ALOT of milk- But would adults drink it? There are mentions of milk being drank by monks in the monasteries of St. Colmcille (St.Columba) which is 6th C and of St. Adamnan (11 C IIRC) Is it reasonable to conclude that outside of monastaries, milk would have been served as a drink during a feast? Chilled water- I wanted something fresh and light, seems to fit the bill Any thoughts on this, or suggestions? Hauviette Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 07:33:04 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Subject: Re: SC - Persian milk? From: Kerri Canepa <kerric at pobox.alaska.net> > I have been watching with some interest for any response to the question Henry > posted concerning Persian milk. Did anyone answer and I missed it? Does anyone > have an answer? Ras? Cariadoc? > > Enquiring cooks want to know... > > Cedrin > Princess Oertha Lord Henry and Assorted Worthies ask about Persian milk... sorry, I kinda figured that by the time I got to this one someone else would. Here are what pass for my thoughts, such as they are: I understand Persian milk to be similar to yogurt. However, as Lord Henry mentions, the context of the recipe he's working with suggests to him that ordinary yogurt would curdle if used as described. So either Persian milk is not just plain yogurt as we know it around here, or perhaps the recipe intends for it to curdle, or there may be some mistranslation somewhere along the line. I can't really help with these questions, but perhaps approach the problem from the opposite direction? Ways for milk to not curdle, assuming that it's not supposed to. As Henry mentions, stabilizing it with some kind of gelatinized/cooked starch would be one way. This method is used today in the various yogurt/garlic/mint sauces for dishes such as shushbarrak (a sort of ravioli-thingy found also in Al-Baghdadi, IIRC), and the method of stabilizing with starch could conceivably have been done in period, although I don't recall seeing a recipe that includes it. Another modern example would be the various uses of kishik, a convenience-food preparation of yogurt dried with ultra-fine bulgur, traditonally on a sunny rooftop, and available commercially in better Middle Eastern markets in funky Romano-cheese-smelling ingots, or as a powder. It's used to thicken and flavor soups and sauces. Another possibility might be that Persian milk is cultured from milk that's been cooked a long time. Proteins will curdle when boiled, but some of them will reverse this process after hours of boiling, rather like some old beer recipes that call for long boiling to first separate out heavier (and cloud-inducing) proteins, and redissolving them by boiling to make a higher-gravity beer. This might be possible with casein and such, and I can think of an example or three of milk cooked to a thick goop without curdling. Dulce de leche would be one example, although this may be stabilized by sugar syrup. Various Italian and Scandinavian dishes of meat cooked in milk, very slowly, might be other examples of this. Another consideration is that the yogurt, assuming that's what Persian milk is, is probably not cow's milk yogurt, and yogurt made from goat's or sheep's milk behaves differently. You might have different results using goat's milk yogurt, since goat's milk has its fat emulsified more severely into it -- it is effectively "shortened" -- which means it tends to thicken or gel more than curdle, in a cheesemaking process. You may find that the same is true in cookery applications for goat's milk yogurt as Persian milk. Again, assuming that Persian milk _is_ yogurt. The only documentation I've seen for that assumption has been on this list, so it's pretty much a matter of faith. > >Does anyone have any useful information on Persian milk? Other period > >cookbooks that use the term, other information about the words, evidence of > >its use in modern times, boiling experiments, information about Arabic words > >for "boil" and "simmer," etc.? > > > >Henry of Maldon/Alex Clark Adamantius Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 17:20:39 EDT From: CBlackwill at aol.com Subject: Re: Subject: Re: SC - Persian milk? troy at asan.com writes: > Another consideration is that the yogurt, assuming that's what Persian > milk is, is probably not cow's milk yogurt, and yogurt made from goat's > or sheep's milk behaves differently. You might have different results > using goat's milk yogurt, since goat's milk has its fat emulsified more > severely into it -- it is effectively "shortened" -- which means it > tends to thicken or gel more than curdle, in a cheesemaking process. This is true. Goats milk will still curdle, but at a higher temperature than cows milk, and it does not curdle in the same fashion. Also, Goats milk can withstand a more highly acidic environment than cows milk. When introducing cows milk into an acidic liquid, it is best to do so only after roux (or another starchy substance) has been used to thicken it (either the milk, or the liquid). This helps to inhibit the curdling (or "breaking). With goats milk, it is often not necessary to thicken it prior to the introduction. Balthazar of Blackmoor Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 15:07:48 CEST From: "Christina van Tets" <cjvt at hotmail.com> Subject: SC - yoghurt Allison wrote: >Thanks for your thoughts, M. Adamantius. Do you suppose that, following >the evening milking--of whatever animal--if the milk were set in an >earthenware pot at the back of the cooking fire area, that by morning it >might have had the necessary cooking to make the yoghurt type, or >thickened type? That was roughly the speculation on the card in a museum I saw some years ago in England (Southampton, I think). It went with a nifty little device (in the Roman section) which was a bowl with small rough pebbles set into it during the making; the whole inside was unglazed. From memory, the archaeologists had done tests and said that there cheese bacteria were lodged in all the 'pores', and that all a cook needed to do was pour milk in and it automatically got its rennet like that. Cairistiona P.S. It was the same shape as an ordinary milk pan, FWIW >Certainly, making yoghurt at home, we heat it to the right temperature >and then hold it there for hours. I try to think of the simple way that >would be natural to do a thing, as very often that is what got done. >Perhaps commercial production in a city might have used a different >method, but if this is not solely a noble dish, then something not too >elaborate in method or utensils is likely. I'm thinking of the kitchens >dug up by archeologists--generally minus their furnishings, of course. Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 16:10:59 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger <mooncat at in-tch.com> Subject: Re: SC - Creme Bastarde Here you go, thanks to M'lady Contance's documentation for last week's A&S: >From _Two 15th Century Cookbooks_, p. 139: "Take te whyte of eyroun a grete hepe, & putte it on a panne ful of mylke, & let yt boyle; ten sesyn it so with salt and honey a lytel; ten lat hir kele, & draw it torw a straynoure, an take fayre cowe mylke an draw yt withallm & seson it with sugre; & loke tat it be poynant & doucet: serve it forth for a potage, or for a god bakyn mete, wheder tat tou wolt." The way Constance redacted it, it came out much like a slightly sweet custard sauce. Absolutely divine as a dip for fresh strawberries. - --Maire Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 10:13:29 +0200 From: "Cindy M. Renfrow" <cindy at thousandeggs.com> Subject: Re: SC - Creme Bastarde >>I'm sure it was good with strawberries, but has anybody tried this as >>the recipe suggests, as a pottage, or, I assume, a filling for tarts? >>I've never made this myself; don't the egg whites curdle? >>Adamantius Hello! Yes, IMO the egg whites should curdle, since we're instructed to boil the whites with milk. The whites clot, and then you strain it through a strainer to make it smoother. My adaptation came out somewhat like tapioca pudding in consistency. It's a good pottage, but I haven't tried it as tart filling. I added currants (as an option) to make it 'poignant', since the recipe does not specify how we're to make this sweet dish 'poignant'. Harl. MS. 4016, Fried creme de almondes, hides currants in almond cream. "Harleian MS. 279 - Potage Dyvers Clj. Creme Bastarde. Take [th]e whyte of Eyroun a grete hepe, & putte it on a panne ful of Mylke, & let yt boyle; [th]en sesyn it so with Salt an hony a lytel, [th]en lat hit kele, & draw it [th]orw a straynoure, an take fayre Cowe mylke an draw yt with-all, & seson it with Sugre, & loke [th]at it be poynant & doucet: & serue it forth for a potage, or for a gode Bakyn mete, wheder [th]at [th]ou wolt. 151. Creme Bastarde. Take the white of Eggs a great heap, & put it in a pan full of Milk, & let it boil; then season it so with Salt and honey a little, then let it cool, & draw it through a strainer, and take fair Cow's milk and draw it withal, & season it with Sugar, & look that it be poignant & sweet: & serve it forth for a pottage, or for a good Baked meat, whichever that thou will. 4 egg whites 1/4 cup + 2 Tablespoons milk dash salt 1 teaspoon honey 1 Tablespoon sugar Optional: garnish with currants Put egg whites and 1/4 cup milk in a saucepan and bring to a boil while stirring. Add a dash of salt and a teaspoon of honey. Stir. Remove pan from heat as soon as the mixture solidifies; it should resemble tapioca pudding. Allow the mixture to cool. Add 2 tablespoons milk to the egg mixture and press it all through a strainer into a bowl. Add 1 tablespoon sugar and stir. Pour into a serving dish and serve warm or cold. Makes 3/4 cup. Serves 2." (From "Take a Thousand Eggs or More", 2nd Ed., Vol. 1 pp. 228-9. Copyright 1990. 1997, by Cindy Renfrow.) Cindy Renfrow/Sincgiefu Author and Publisher of "Take a Thousand Eggs or More" and "A Sip Through Time" Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 09:19:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeff Heilveil <heilveil at uiuc.edu> Subject: SC - Creme Bastarde It was asked whether anyone had made Creme Bastarde as a filling for tarts. I have. IT was wonderful. It worked out wonderfully. Admittedly, I didn't redact it myself, but rather used the redaction in Take a Thousand Eggs or More (I don't recall which volume, though Cindy might help out with that). As with all of the redactions I have used from there, it worked beautifully, and tasted wonderful. Bogdan Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 18:45:51 EDT From: LadyPDC at aol.com Subject: SC - Creme' Bastarde Greeting to the list from Constance de LaRose, Now that the A&S competition is over and I have the time to read all the postings from the SCA-Cooks, I am back. <g> I have noticed several posts regarding the various Creme' Bastarde recipes from period sources and various problems getting it to come out correctly. So I thought I would pass on the secrets I have discovered. All of the period recipes call for milk, however, one was specific in stating "fayre milk straight from the cow" (sorry, things are still a mess here so will have to get you the reference on it later). As anyone who has ever milked a cow can tell you, if you let milk straight from the cow set for any length of time, the cream (and many of the sweet fats from the milk) will rise to the top. Even modern whole milk which you buy in the store has usually lost these parts. Since I didn't have access to a ready, milk providing, cow, I put these parts back in when I made the "Creme' Bastarde" which was in the competition. For each cup of milk which the redation I worked out called for, I used 3/4 cup whole milk and 1/4 cup cream. Also, after straining the final cooked mixture, I beat the whole mixture 200 strokes before refrigerating and 100 strokes after an hour of refrigeration. This is what gave the cream it's fuller, creamier, taste and texture. As for the other question, I did try the baking offered as an alternative in the original recipes. The cream addition makes for a lovely fluffy baked custard which is delicious with a sauce of any fruit liqueur and a bit of honey heated and poured over it. Hope this helps. Constance de LaRose "Crme Bastarde. Take te whyte of eyroun a grete hepe, & putte it on a panne ful of mylke, & let yt boyle; ten sesyn it so with salt and honey a lytel; ten lat hit kele, & draw it torw a straynoure, an take fayre cowe mylke an draw yt withallm & seson it with sugre; & loke tat it be poynant & doucet: serve it forth for a potage, or for a gode bakyn mete, wheder tat tou wolt" Custard Sauce 2 egg whites, well beaten 3/4 cup whole milk 1/2 cup cream 2 tsp. cream 2 T honey pinch salt 2 tbsp sugar Put egg whites in a sauce pan with the milk and cup of the cream and stir over medium heat as it comes to a boil. Let it simmer for about 5 minutes, stirring: then add the honey and salt. After simmering for another minute or two, remove from heat and strain or blend in a blender, adding remaining cream and sugar and beat for 200 strokes. Pour into a serving dish and chill for one hour (it will thicken as it chills). At the end of one hour, remove and beat again for 100 strokes then chill until ready to serve. Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 08:12:09 EDT From: ChannonM at aol.com Subject: SC - Re: Started as viking barley bread- now did Vikings drink milk > An interesting point. Was milk drunk as a common beverage? I'm sure it > was consumed quite a bit in Scandinavian areas (that's one reason why > the Innuits wiped out a Viking trading village in Greenland. They had > been given milk as a drink and the lactose intolerant natives thought they > had been poisoned.) but what about the Continent or England? When researching a 12th C Irish feast I included the Viking influence and read Egil's Saga. There are several food references in it and one that touches on milk in particular Finally, after the death of his sons, Egil discusses with his daughter and he says; <<So worketh it with one that eateth dulse, thirsteth he aye the more for that (water) Wilt thou drink, father? saith she. He took it, and swallowed a big draught, and that was in a beasts horn. Then spake Thorgerd: Now are we cheated! This is milk. Then bit Egil a shard out of the horn, all that his teeth took hold on, and there with cast down the horn.>> So, milk anyone? I guess it wouldn't be be wise to serve it to this Viking. Hauviette Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 17:55:12 -0500 From: "Michael F. Gunter" <michael.gunter at fnc.fujitsu.com> Subject: SC - Re: now did Vikings drink milk > <<?So worketh it with one that eateth dulse, thirsteth he aye the more for > that (water)? > ?Wilt thou drink, father?? saith she. > He took it, and swallowed a big draught, and that was in a beast?s horn. > Then spake Thorgerd: ? Now are we cheated! This is milk?. > Then bit Egil a shard out of the horn, all that his teeth took hold on, and > there with cast down the horn.>> > > So, milk anyone? > > I guess it wouldn?t be be wise to serve it to this Viking. > > Hauviette Well upon reading it a couple of times it appears to me that what upset the heroes wasn't the fact that milk wasn't drunk but that they were expecting something a bit stronger. I've seen several sources that the Norse enjoyed milk, either fresh or soured, as a beverage but I don't know if the habit extended to the lower countries. Maybe Nanna could give some insight. Gunthar Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 17:30:47 -0700 From: "James F. Johnson" <seumas at mind.net> Subject: Re: SC - Re: now did Vikings drink milk "Michael F. Gunter" wrote: > Well upon reading it a couple of times it appears to me that what upset > the heroes wasn't the fact that milk wasn't drunk but that they were > expecting something a bit stronger. > > I've seen several sources that the Norse enjoyed milk, either fresh > or soured, as a beverage but I don't know if the habit extended to the > lower countries. I know the Icelanders diluted whey about 1 part whey to 11 or 12 parts water and consumed as a beverage. And while it was acceptable to offer it in hospitality, if you were discovered to have held back the good stuff (mead, beer, etc) and only offered the whey, the fur would start to fly. If the whey was all you had, then that was acceptable if offered. The former happens in Egil's Saga when he finds the innkeeper has held back the good food and drink, expecting the king, and given Egil skyr curds and diluted whey. Egil makes known his heartfelt disappointment at his treatment by the innkeeper, and, er,....'returns' the curds and whey to his host. Seumas Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 01:04:21 -0000 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" <nannar at isholf.is> Subject: Re: SC - Re: now did Vikings drink milk >Well upon reading it a couple of times it appears to me that what upset >the heroes wasn't the fact that milk wasn't drunk but that they were >expecting something a bit stronger. > >I've seen several sources that the Norse enjoyed milk, either fresh >or soured, as a beverage but I don't know if the habit extended to the >lower countries. > >Maybe Nanna could give some insight. Sure. The point here is that Egill was so full of grief after his son drowned that he decided to starve himself to death, but his daughter ?orgerur (Thorgerd) tricked him by first convincing him that she wanted to join him in his plan, then by chewing some dulse (which seems not to have been eaten in Norway, the Icelandic settlers probably learned that from the Irish). Egill didnt consider the dulse to be food (chewing gum, maybe?) so he also got some dulse, not realising how salty it was. They became very thirsty and called for some water but were given milk instead (arranged by ?orgerur before she joined her father, of course). The reason for Egils anger is that he realises he has been tricked. So he abandoned his plan of starving himself to death and instead (at ?orgerur's suggestion) composed Sonatorrek, one of his mighty poems, in memory of his sons (another one had died a short time earlier). The Icelanders did drink milk, and diluted fermented whey (s?ra), and thin skyr (either undrained or thinned with water). Nanna Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 18:07:49 -0400 From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net> Subject: Re: SC - Double cream And it came to pass on 24 Aug 00,, that Philip & Susan Troy wrote: > It's too early in the morning, and I haven't finished my tea, or I'd > find the specific butterfat percentage ranges for the various kinds of > cream in the USA and the UK. Maybe someone else has this information > handy? > > Adamantius The rec.food.cooking FAQ has this, and other neat bits of information. It is well worth bookmarking, and is webbed (among other places) at: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/cooking/faq/ This is what it has to say about cream: The minimum milk fat content by weight for various types of cream: (UK) (US) Clotted Cream 55% Double Cream 48% Heavy Cream 36% Whipping Cream 35% 30% Whipped Cream 35% Single Cream 18% (=Light Cream) Half Cream 12% (=Half and Half*) * Half and Half has only 10% butterfat in British Columbia. Lady Brighid ni Chiarain Settmour Swamp, East (NJ) mka Robin Carroll-Mann harper at idt.net Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 14:50:38 -0400 From: "Siegfried Heydrich" <baronsig at peganet.com> Subject: Re: SC - Double cream Really? Usually when I made it, I just poured heavy whipping cream into shallow hotel pans, covered them, and sat them on top of the coolers, where the warm air from the condenser could blow on them. (had good luck with warming pads, too) Just left them for 24+ hours, and it clotted quite nicely. Poured off the semi-clear liquid on top, scored it with a knife after drizzling it with a bit o' honey, and it was wonderful! I'm serving this for CoroCrown next weekend, doing Tantallon Triskele cakes with Peaches & Cream for dessert. (to head off the queries about what the hell is CoroCrown, we're having Coronation on Saturday, and Crown Lyste the following day. We're switching the dates for coronations and crown lists, so it's going to be a weird event. And you don't EVEN want to know why we're doing it, either.) Sieggy > Maddalena asked: > > Anybody know what "double cream" is? > > Double Cream is cream which contains no less than 48% > butterfat content, and is usually commercially > produced by centrifugal seperation. It is right > between "Heavy whipping Cream" (%35-45) and "clotted > cream" (%55). I have not had much success finding it > in the States. I would substitute by reducing heavy > whipping cream by 1/3 to 1/2 (and have done so on many > occasions.) The only drawback to this is the "cooked" > taste which results, which is fairly similar to > Devonshire Clotted Cream. Hope this helps > > Balthazar of Blackmoor Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 14:16:05 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Double cream Chris Stanifer wrote: > You were making clotted cream, then, and not Double > cream, right? My suggestion was for reducing heavy > cream in order to approximate the butterfat content of > Double cream. Another tactic I've used, that seems to work for me, is to heat the cream and swirl very fresh, unsalted butter into it, in various proportions for various uses. I find that this is slightly less likely to give the cream a cooked taste than reducing it would, and you can reduce the cooked taste still further by using a small amount of cream, adding a lot of butter, stirring slowly as this mixture cools, then adding more cream that hasn't been heated. Adamantius Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 11:13:48 -0700 From: Susan Fox-Davis <selene at earthlink.net> Subject: Re: SC - Double cream > Adamantius: Another tactic I've used, that seems to work for me, is to heat > the cream and swirl very fresh, unsalted butter into it, in various > proportions for various uses. I find that this is slightly less likely > to give the cream a cooked taste than reducing it would, and you can > reduce the cooked taste still further by using a small amount of cream, > adding a lot of butter, stirring slowly as this mixture cools, then > adding more cream that hasn't been heated. As a matter of fact, cleaning out my late mistress' house, I found a rare old plastic hand-powered appliance, a 'cream maker.' You agitate the handle and the milk + melted unsalted butter inside combine into cream. You can adjust the fat content in the cream according to the proportions of milk to butter. I ought to bring it to a no-electricity camping event some time and test it out [behind the reed curtain into non-period-equipment-land of course]. Selene Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 09:34:59 -0000 From: "Nanna Rognvaldardottir" <nanna at idunn.is> Subject: Re: SC - OT - freezing things Merald wrote: > Speaking of freezing things, can you freeze milk? I will need some mares >milk at a time that is inconvenient to find it, and it is available now... Mare's milk freezes well (that's how it is sold here, when available) but may be somewhat grainier when thawed and the taste may be slightly affected. When thawing, it is best to submerge the milk container in cold water and defrost it slowly. Nanna Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 10:01:43 EDT From: ChannonM at aol.com Subject: SC - non-homogenised milk > I have an aunt that used to buy milk in bulk and freeze it until needed. > > The milk, when allowed to thaw completely did indeed separate, and tasted > fine. Actually I have been freezing milk for as long as I can remember. In Ontario, milk comes in 1 ltre bags that are sold in three's. Works great, because you can set the frozen bags in a sink of cool water to thaw them. I just had no idea that this "unhomogenized" them. Cool. Thanks for posting this info. Learn somthin new everyday! Hauviette Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 16:39:45 -0400 From: "micaylah" <dy018 at freenet.carleton.ca> Subject: Re: SC - Weird but cool kitchen gadgets > But does the result of this end up like cream? It sounds like it > would actually more resemble buttermilk. Actually Buttermilk has very very little fat in it. According to Canadian standards: Buttermilk is milk to which bacterial cultures have been added to give it its characteristic sour taste. Even though it has butter in its name, it is not a higher fat choice! It