dairy-prod-msg - 3/30/08
Dairy products. milk, curds, cream, sour cream.
NOTE: See also the files: cheese-msg, cheesemaking-msg, Cheese-Making-art, livestock-msg, butter-msg, cheese-lnks, clotted-cream-msg, fresh-cheeses-msg.
************************************************************************
NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).
Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
************************************************************************
From: NOMAD at ins.infonet.net (The McDowell Clan)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Disgusting Recipes
Date: 27 Feb 1995 01:23:06 GMT
hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu says...
>Bill Tuttle (maclain at mindspring.com) wrote:
>: Can anyone tell me about period use of cow's milk? I don't remember ever
>: hearing it mentioned as a common drink. Why is that?
>
>Here are some possibilities to consider:
>
>- It needed no preparation before consumption and therefore was unlikely
>to be mentioned in cookbooks.
>
>- It was considered a non-prestige drink and therefore was not served in
>the contexts for which records were made (e.g., royal banquets).
>
>I'm not saying that either of these is "the" answer, just that they are
>some of the factors to consider. In fact, you _can_ (with a little
>effort) find references to the everyday use of milk as a beverage. Off
>the top of my head, I can pull up a literary reference in the medieval
>Welsh tale "The Dream of Rhonabwy" where a miserly meal is described as
>consisting of "barley bread, cheese, and watered milk".
>
>Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn
The following is an excert from Fabulous Feasts, Medieval cookery and
Ceremony by Madeliene Pelner Cosman. ISBN: 0-8076-0898-X.
Cow's milk, but especially sheep's and goat's, was used plain or skimmed or
creamed or "crudded" or "clotted. Not only for making butters and cheeses
(the so-called "white meat" or "white food"), milk curds were added to
puddings and sauces. Milk heated, combined with wine or ale and spices, and
so curdled, was known as posset, drunk alone or, in turn, added to other
recipes. Ground nuts boiled in milk yielded both a drink and a stock for
soups and sauces; one of several forms of almond was so prepared.
Padraigh, newbie in training.
Deodar, Calontir.
From: CXYB76A at prodigy.com (Elizabeth Estep)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Dinner in Poland in 1220
Date: 14 Jul 1995 01:06:37 GMT
I don't know anything about Polish food, but I do know that England, 14th
century, milk might have served as a "caudle" a sweetened or enriched
flavored milk drink.
I'm not sure if this would have been served at a feast per se, as it
seems to be a drink for invalids, but it might have been made up
especially for someone old, young, or sick who attended the feast, or
requested by someone (with the clout to the get the kitchen to bother)
who wanted it.
I've tried caudles a couple of times at home, and my husband liked them
as a sweetisht drink, the same way he likes chocolate milk.
ELIZABETH ESTEP CXYB76A at prodigy.com
ska Angharad ferch Tangwystl
From: Philip E Cutone <flip+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:27:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: SC - An Introduction and a question.
The domestroi mentions various ways fruits are preserved/cooked.
<snip of referances to fruit>
just to throw one more point toward butter in period: it talks of
croutons fried in butter(67)
the parenthesized numbers are chapters, for the interested.
please note this was from a very quick browse through.... and typed
rather quickly as well...
Filip of the Marche
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:57:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy at abel.MATH.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Re: SC - Re: curds, was-A real sieg
how do you make fresh curds? are they like cottage cheese?
Milk is a complex structure, of water, proteins, fats, sugars and stuff.
It's really quite neat.
One of the principle protein combinations in milk is called casein. It can
be coagulated into a solid white mass, called curds.
There are two basic mechanisms for doing this. One is to add a small amount
of sour/acid, and heat gently. Another is to use an enzymatic method, such
as the chemical "rennet" which is found in the stomach lining of many farm
animals.
Many of the forms of cheese we consume are hardened variations on curds, and
processed curds. Cottage cheese is flavored and otherwise intact curds.
But it is hardly ever fresh, and it is often salted or otherwise spiced. The
remains of the milk, after curds are made and removed, is a clear and
protein rich liquid, called whey. You can find whey if you purchase a live
culture yogurt (such as I have in my hand...) and let it warm gently. They
whey is the thick clear liquid that separates out.
Tibor
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:54:19 -0500
From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter)
Subject: Re: SC - Re: curds, was-A real sieg
Hi, Katerine here. Brid asks how you make fresh curds, and whether they
are like cottage cheese.
On the first question: well, if you have raw (that is, unhomogenized)
milk, it's relatively easy. Curds are the lumps that form out of milk
with the addition of acid. Rennet works *very* well; but you can also
get them with a few drops of vinegar, or lemon juice, or verjuice, or
so on. Unfortunately, if the milk is homogenized, you have to add much
more, and the curds just aren't the same when they form.
As to whether they're like cottage cheese: if you look on those tubs
they sell, they're labeled "aged". So the answer is: curds are a *fresh*
form of the sort of thing they *age* to get the lumps in cottage cheese.
No, cottage cheese doesn't work great in this recipe. But it can be used.
Cheers,
- -- Katerine/Terry
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 97 13:58:46 -0700
From: chuck_diters at mail.fws.gov
Subject: Re[2]: SC - lombardy custard
Katerine/Terry wrote: (snip) Since cream in those days was neither
pasteurized nor combined with milk (as even modern heavy cream is,
because dairies can legally do it and save money thereby), my
suspicion is that they would have been using a much heavier cream, and
the straining may have been encouraging the fats to harden, thickening
it further, rather than introducing air. (snip)
I recall a particularly tasty dessert at a restaurant on Ile
d'Orleans called L'Atre (this was in the late 60's) that consisted
simply of fresh bread with maple sugar, run under a broiler, and
topped with the heaviest of heavy cream from the farm's own cows. As
I recall, the cream was not thickened in any mechanical way, and
already had nearly the consistency of modern "whipped" cream. (In
other words, I suspect K/T is close to the mark here.)
Chuck/Bjarni
************************************************************************
Chuck Diters/Bjarni Edwardsson West/Oertha/Eskalya
Shadowood Manor, 9541 Victor Road, Anchorage, AK 99515-1470
ph: (907)344-5753 Email: chuck_diters at mail.fws.gov
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 17:09:33 -0500
From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter)
Subject: Re: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #245
Hi, Katerine here. Snipping from Aiofe's response to Adamantius:
>For that matter, who says that our cream was the consistency of their cream,
I, for one, am middling certain it wasn't. Modern cream is homogenized,
which affects consistency. It is also thinnned down to legally acceptable
levels. In fact, modern cream isn't much thicker than the stuff that
rose to the top of milk bottles we got in England 35 years ago -- and
that was milk from which much of the cream had already been removed.
I suspect that raw cream carefully extracted from fresh raw milk is *much*
heavier than the heaviest you can buy at the supermarket. Modern dairies
economize by giving us much weaker stuff. I also suspect that homogenization
affects the readiness of cream to clot.
- -- Katerine/Terry
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 18:10:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: Uduido at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Re:Crustade Lombarde, An Inspiration turned Sour
In a message dated 97-08-21 08:36:55 EDT, Adamantius wrote:
<< This isn't my normal way of solving problems like this. I offer
it only as a consolation prize... . >>
Ok, folks. I went visiting a farmer friend and talked him out of a gallon of
gurnsey milk. I let it stand in the fridge for 72 hours. and then carefully
removed the layer of cream on top. This cream is a) very thick and b) will
hold a small egg on top if carefully slid unto it. I did not go any further
but I thought that it would be something to think about. That is to say the
small cattle of period probably produced milk wich was richer in cream and
their chickens definately produced smaller eggs.
I don't know if this will help but that is what I have discovered so far.
Unfortunately after 3 weeks of vacation I don't have the time needed to
further experiment with this one. :-(
Lord Ras
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 19:02:03 -0500
From: maddie teller-kook <meadhbh at io.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #245
Terry Nutter wrote:
> Hi, Katerine here. Snipping from Aiofe's response to Adamantius:
>
> I, for one, am middling certain it wasn't. Modern cream is homogenized,
> which affects consistency. It is also thinnned down to legally acceptable
> levels. In fact, modern cream isn't much thicker than the stuff that
> rose to the top of milk bottles we got in England 35 years ago -- and
> that was milk from which much of the cream had already been removed.
A dairy in Central Texas sells unhomogonized cream. It is very, very
thick. I wonder if this product would produce the desired results!
It may form curds with the addition of the parsley.
meadhbh
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 09:02:31 -0600 (MDT)
From: Mary Morman <memorman at oldcolo.com>
Subject: SC - real cream
Back in the dark ages when my children were babies, I knew a woman who
owned two jersey cows. She milked daily, pasteurized, and then sold the
milk and cream. I used to get two gallons of milk (with cream rising to
the top) and a pint mayonaise jar of real cream every week.
Now this cream would not pour. It was more the consistency of soft butter
or modern sour cream. You had to scoop it out of the jar with a big
spoon. You could whip it, and it didn't take a lot of whipping to 'puff'
but would turn to butter in a trice.
If this is the kind of cream that period cooks were working with,
then, yes, it would support an egg right off with no problem and no
additives. And also, why bother to whip it when it's already the
consistency of creme anglaise or pastry filling?
elaina
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:16:47 -0500 (EST)
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: SC - Sour Cream
<< Also, is sour cream period, or is that a
different breed of cat from period stuff, too? >>
If you leave unhomogonized, raw milk on the counter over night the cream
rises. The milk and cream also sour. Thus you have sour cream.
BTW, soured milk is the "traditional way of making butter. It yields the best
buttermilk in the world and the butter itself is, IMO, 100 steps ahead of the
"sweet" butter available in most supermarkets today with regard to flavor.
Ras
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 21:19:22 -0500
From: margali <margali at 99main.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Sour Cream
LrdRas at aol.com wrote:
> << Also, is sour cream period, or is that a
> different breed of cat from period stuff, too? >>
>
> If you leave unhomogonized, raw milk on the counter over night the
> cream rises. The milk and cream also sour. Thus you have sour cream.
GIANT HORRENDOUS GAAAAKKKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Milk that has been pasteurized will not sour into sour cream, it gathers
airborne microbes that are NOT lactobacillus acidoph., and they taste
nasty. If you ask any cheesemaker, you inoculate with the correct
bacillus and then you let it sour. Thus is made proper sour cream, it is
essentially a variant of yoghurt.
off my soap box and nipping back under my rock, away from the nasty
rotting milk left out on the counter
margali
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 20:40:14 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Sour Cream
LrdRas at aol.com wrote:
> If you leave unhomogonized, raw milk on the counter over night the
> cream rises. The milk and cream also sour. Thus you have sour cream.
Actually, Ras, you get cream, which will probably have soured without
the benefit of the microbes that give dairy sour cream (and I know I
used the term "dairy sour" cream specifically to make this distinction)
its distinctive flavor. In other words, you get cream that is sour, but
not sour cream.
Margali, whereever did you find that unhomogenized, raw, pasteurized
milk that rots on the counter ; ) ?
Seriously, though, some Middle Eastern groceries sell a Lebanese cream
yogurt called Laban or labneh. Labneh just means yogurt, pretty much, so
you will have to read the ingredients to determine whether it is milk
yogurt or cream yogurt. Cream Laban is great, but not quite the same as
smetana, the Russian (I think) stuff we've come to know as sour cream. I
believe there's a different bug involved.
Adamantius
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 21:06:44 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Sour Cream
Varju at aol.com wrote:
> << Cream Laban is great, but not quite the same as
> smetana, the Russian (I think) stuff we've come to know as sour cream. I
> believe there's a different bug involved >>
>
> Would this account for different textures and consistancies? I know that
> Hungarian tefol (sour cream) is much thinner and generally had the
> consistancy of thick yoghurt. Even at its thickest it was nothing like our
> sour cream.
>
> Noemi
A different bacterium might well account for differences in
consistency. So might differences in the cream itself, prior to souring
(i.e. butterfat content, or even a different animal source).
Adamantius
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 10:40:24 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: SC - Re: Sour Cream
Woeller D wrote:
> P.S. still haven't figured out, from all of the replies on the sour
> cream string, if it, or what can be gotten in stores, is anywhere near
> period.
The Official Answer is "We don't know." The apparent real answer is,
probably not, unless you are of Russian or Polish or other Eastern
European persona, and perhaps not even then. But it hasn't been ruled
out, either.
What we call sour cream is really smetana, a Russian preparation that
probably became widely known in Europe only after the Crimean War, with
an extra boost when a lot of Russian aristocrats moved to France after
the Russian Revolution. How long smetana has been eaten in Russia, I
have no idea.
Adamantius
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 17:46:13 -0800
From: "Crystal A. Isaac" <crystal at pdr-is.com>
Subject: Re: SC - redaction challenge/milk question
kat wrote:
snip
> Wow! Could "new Milke warme" actually refer to milk straight from the cow, so to speak? I mean, that's as new as it gets; and it's certainly warm at the time (don't know exact cow temperature, but assume prolly 90+ degrees)...
>
> Did they do that???
You bet they did. Pasturization is new and refrigeration is even newer.
But why assume cow milk? They drank sheep and goat milk too. I havn't
been able to document arabic peoples drinking milk, but it's easy for
europeans.
Sources for the purists:
Anthimus. _De Observatio Ciborum_. circa 526CE. Translated by Weber,
Shirley Howard. Anthimus, De Observatio Ciborum: Text, Commentary and
Glossary with a Study of the Latinity. Dissertation. Published by E.J.
Brill Ltd., Leiden 1924.
LXXVI The Same (Of Milk)
Of milk, -- for well people, -- if anyone wishes to drink raw milk, let
him have mixed with it wine or mead, and if there is not any of these
drinks, let a little salt be put in, and it does not then congeal
inside. If, however, it is drunk as it is milked, warm, in this way it
does no harm. If a little honey or wine be mixed with it, it is better
to take. And if one wished to act more carefully, let [a cow or] a goat
or a sheep be milked in his presence; and as the milk is drawn is
should not get cold, but be drunk warm.
Ratti, Oscar. and Westbrook, Adele. Translators and adaptors. _The
Medieval Health Handbook_. Orginal Italian edition _Tacinum Sanitatis_.
Lusia Arano, editor. Publsihed by George Braziller, Inc. New York. 1976
ISBN 0-8076-0808-4 (Text and pictures from Tacuinas of the Po valley,
circa 1390CE.)
35 Sweet Milk (Lac Dulce)
Nature: Temperate and sweet when warm. Optimum: That from young sheep.
Usefulness: For the chest and lungs. Dangers: For fevers. Neutralization
of the dangers: With seedless raisins. (f. 37v)
Crystal of the Westermark