cooking-oils-msg – 3/21/15 Period cooking and food oils. Rendering fat into oil. NOTE: See also the files: butter-msg, nuts-msg, broths-msg, salads-msg, frittours-msg, fried-foods-msg, aspic-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: david friedman Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 18:15:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: SC - walnut oil This is Elizabeth, following the list a couple weeks late, posting from David's account. At 3:19 PM -0400 5/8/97, Karen Farris wrote: > Would any of you illustrious chefs inform a poor French peasant girl > of the periodicity of walnut oil? What about other nut oils or > vegetable oils? Is there script of any other than animal lards and > olive oil? According to a 13th century Book of Trades (quoted in _Daily Living in the 12th Century_), the oil merchant sold olive oil, almond oil, walnut oil, linseed oil, and poppy oil. Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:09:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Uduido at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Flavoured oils query << would like to learn more about NW Europe, specifically the western part of the British Isles (Ireland, Wales and Cornwall) in regards of cooking. I love oil which has been suffused with herbs. Have attempted to make my own (I think I was too impatient) and use commercially produced ones a lot. Are they period? >> Well, not to disappoint you but it appears as if the lubricants of choice based on extant recipes were as follows: British Isles, Northern France- butter; Germany and Teutonic countries- lard; Italy, South France, Spain, Portugal and the mid-east- olive oil. Of course, since I'm basing this on memory, I could be wrong. Lord Ras Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 16:19:19 -0500 From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter) Subject: Re: SC - Flavoured oils query Hi, Katerine here. Lord Ras writes: >Well, not to disappoint you but it appears as if the lubricants of choice >based on extant recipes were as follows: British Isles, Northern France- >butter; Germany and Teutonic countries- lard; Italy, South France, Spain, >Portugal and the mid-east- olive oil. Of course, since I'm basing this on >memory, I could be wrong. Actually, based on the recipes I've seen in the English corpus, I'd say that the primary oil-like substances in use in England were white grease and lard. You also see suet, but less frequently. Next in order is probably oil, usually olive. One sees butter fairly frequently in the 13th C (about 15% of recipes), but less often than oil or grease, and in the 14th and 15th centuries relatively rarely (about 3%). - -- Katerine/Terry Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 11:29:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Stephen Bloch Subject: Re: SC - Flavoured oils query Ras wrote: > Well, not to disappoint you but it appears as if the lubricants of choice > based on extant recipes were as follows: British Isles, Northern France- > butter; Germany and Teutonic countries- lard; Italy, South France, Spain, > Portugal and the mid-east- olive oil. Katerine made some corrections to the "British Isles - butter" part. I shall point out that in the cooking of the Arabic-speaking world (which, being a literate culture, has left us more cookbooks from longer ago than has Christian Europe), the primary lubricant seems to be rendered from the tail of the fat-tailed sheep (see the notes on ingredients in the _Miscellany_). Butter was also known, and the _Manuscrito Anonimo_ points out that "some people love it, and add it to bread, while others cannot stand even to smell it." _Manuscrito anonimo_ goes on to say: Butter is not employed in kitchen dishes because it is only used in the various kinds of rafis [see below] and in some cakes, and in similar foods of [made by?] women. It is needed for its oil, over which it quickly forms a dry crust, and for spicy or vinegary things so that it may cut their sharpness and make them soft and smooth, and do them great benefit. Most of the recipes calling for butter in this cookbook are for a class of dishes called _rafis_, which appear to all be sweetened, yeast-raised breadlike or cakelike dishes, cooked in a pan (not baked in an oven). Butter is also used occasionally for greasing meats to be oven-roasted, and for making puff-pastry dough, e.g. for "sambusak", which I think is a cognate for "samosa". Oil (I've been assuming it means olive oil, without much evidence) also appears frequently in the _Manuscrito anonimo_, often interchangeably with butter or animal grease. mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 22:18:43 +0000 From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" Subject: Re: SC - Flavoured oils query And it came to pass on 6 Sep 97, that Stephen Bloch wrote: > Ras wrote: > > Well, not to disappoint you but it appears as if the lubricants of choice > > based on extant recipes were as follows: British Isles, Northern France- > > butter; Germany and Teutonic countries- lard; Italy, South France, Spain, > > Portugal and the mid-east- olive oil. > > Katerine made some corrections to the "British Isles - butter" part. > I shall point out that in the cooking of the Arabic-speaking world > (which, being a literate culture, has left us more cookbooks from > longer ago than has Christian Europe), the primary lubricant seems > to be rendered from the tail of the fat-tailed sheep Not a correction, but an addition: in Spain, though olive oil was much-used, pork fat appears to have been very popular also. The "Libro de Guisados" mentions lard in a number of recipes, but bacon fat is even more common. "Sofreirlas con buen tocino gordo" -- "Gently fry them in good fatty bacon". Brighid ni Chiarain of Tethba Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 22:43:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Uduido at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Flavoured oils query I have been using my 'free' time' to study this flavored oil question. The only reference I came across was a recipe for 'flavored' oil in Vehling's Apicius which is decidedly not English and decidedly not the appropriate period. The reference uses 'nard', rosemary, etc. as seasonings. Lord Ras Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 21:45:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Stephen Bloch Subject: Re: SC - Flavoured oils query Ras wrote: > I have been using my 'free' time' to study this flavored oil question. The > only reference I came across was a recipe for 'flavored' oil in Vehling's > Apicius which is decidedly not English and decidedly not the appropriate > period. The reference uses 'nard', rosemary, etc. as seasonings. "nard" or "nardo" is probably spikenard. mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib Date: Mon, 12 Jan 98 22:57:03 PST From: "Alderton, Philippa" Subject: Re: SC - fat rendering? : Philippa gave a lamb/goat recipe: : >1 4 lb leg of lamb, deboned and cut into cubes : >lamb fat, rendered, with olive oil : : What does this second line mean? Or more precisely, : how should you do this? : : This is heating the lamb fat to turn it into oil, right? : What is the olive oil for? Does this keep the fat from : burning while it melts into oil? Should you strain the : resulting oil? How much olive oil should you use? : : Stefan li Rous The rendering you have right, you're merely removing the oil from the fat. The olive oil was to stretch the lamb fat since I didn't really have enough lamb fat for the browning I was doing. Olive oil is a flavored oil, not particularly good for high temperature cooking, though certainly not bad. Peanut oil can be taken to a very high temperature without smoking, and this is one case where the cheaper oils can be of benefit, because the cheap peanut oil has LESS flavor than the expensive ones I've tried, giving as close to a neutral flavor as possible. Since peanuts are OOP, you don't want that flavor, but you may want the heating characteristics. As far as straining, just remove (and enjoy- cooks privilege) the cracklins, or in other words, the connective tissue left behind from the rendering. Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 08:59:48 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Shopping savvy for Feasts-revisited I prefer butter to margarine, but will use margarine where it is applicable. Both are in the refrigerator. I buy my olive oil in 3 liter cans and my extra virgin olive oil in smaller quantity. Regular olive oil is for cooking, extra virgin is for sauces and dressings. I also have peanut oil, corn oil, sesame oil, vegetable oil, vegetable shortening, and canola oil (canola oil is a scribal error, I was given the bottle). At present, I am out of lard, walmut oil and almond oil. Yes, I use all of these for different applications in cooking and baking. I may even use the canola for tempering my cast iron, where the flavor shouldn't matter. Bear Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 22:53:32 -0800 From: david friedman Subject: SC - Oils (was: Shopping savvy for Feasts) At 8:59 AM -0600 11/19/98, Decker, Terry D. wrote: >I buy my olive oil in 3 liter cans and my >extra virgin olive oil in smaller quantity. Regular olive oil is for >cooking, extra virgin is for sauces and dressings. I also have peanut oil, >corn oil, sesame oil, vegetable oil, vegetable shortening, and canola oil >(canola oil is a scribal error, I was given the bottle). At present, I am >out of lard, wlamut oil and almond oil. Yes, I use all of these for >different applications in cooking and baking. I may even use the canola for >tempering my cast iron, where the flavor shouldn't matter. > >Bear Isn't canola oil (alias rape seed oil) Old World? Although I can't think of any specific references to it, as I can for almond, walnut, sesame, and olive oil. Peanut, corn, and soybean oils would be out of period, of course. Elizabeth/Betty Cook Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 14:41:58 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Oils (was: Shopping savvy for Feasts) > Isn't canola oil (alias rape seed oil) Old World? Although I can't think > of any specific references to it, as I can for almond, walnut, sesame, and > olive oil. Peanut, corn, and soybean oils would be out of period, of > course. > > Elizabeth/Betty Cook The quick ref says canola oil is extracted from Brassica napus, a European member of the mustard family, commonly referred to as rape or oil rape. Also according to the quick ref, rape oil is used a lubricant and in manufacturing processes. Whether it's medieval or not, I couldn't say, but the taste is such I don't think any self respecting medieval cook would let it get anywhere near the kitchen. I think its use in cooking is recent, due to its "healthy" properties. Bear Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 01:10:46 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: Re: SC - another question Stacie wrote: > instead of shortening what would one use? Lard...? butter? > if you substituted shortening for butter how would it turn out? > > Stacie Ounce for ounce, butter has less shortening power than lard or vegetable shortening because it is an emulsion containing, what (it's late, I'm tired, and I don't have the reference in front of me) roughly 15% water. Almost all baked goods require at least _some_ water. Things like shortbread usually can get enough from the butter, but if you substituted another fat you might have to add some water. When substituting whole butter for another fat, you should probably add commensurately less water. It's probably not a big deal in most cases, but when multiplying recipes for bulk use, it could be an issue. Adamantius Østgardr, East Subject: RE: ANST - Lard Date: Mon, 20 Sep 99 14:35:17 MST From: "Decker, Terry D." To: "'ansteorra at ansteorra.org'" > What is a good substitute for Lard in today's cooking world and for penny > royal? > > F. Havas > ches at io.com Lard is a pretty good substitute for lard. It is available in stick form and by the bucket. About the same price as solid vegetable shortening. If there are health or religious issues. Crisco or some other solid 100% vegetable shortening makes about the best substitute. If you are using this in pastry or a similar dish, I recommend sticking to the solids, as solid and liquid fats have different characteristics when blended into a recipe. If you are planning to fry in it, vegetable oil, olive oil, corn oil, etc. can be substituted, although they do not handle as high a heat as the solid shortenings, which may be an issue if you are trying to flash cook a dough. Bear Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 20:46:15 -0700 From: lilinah at grin.net Subject: Re: SC - Middle Eastern Sesame oil Artemis of St. Malachy wrote: >I'm currently preparing for a feast at the end of October. Several of >our dishes are Islamic in origin and require sesame oil. I've been told >that this is not the same as the sesame oil used in many asian dishes, >and that middle eastern sesame oil is made from untoasted sesame seeds >and does not have the strong flavour that asian sesame oil has. The main >problem is I can't find the stuff anywhere. We have several asian food >stores in our area, but not middle eastern. I will be require a fair >amount of the oil (about 1.5 L) and am wondering if there is a good >substitute for it. I don't know if this sesame oil has a particular >cooking characteristic. I've found cold-pressed sesame oil in health >stores. It was a much lighter colour to the asian sesame oil and didn't >seem to have as strong a taste to it, but the bottle did not say whether >the sesame seeds were toasted or untoasted. If it is light in color, it is untoasted and shouldn't have a real strong taste. This light colored oil is what you want. Besides cold-pressed, I think there are some untoasted expeller pressed varieties available too, often at the health food store. Anahita Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 23:34:10 EST From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Fat tailed sheep phlip at morganco.net writes: << Anybody have any references, whether to recipes, commentary, or other references? Phlip >> al-Baghdadi (1223 CE) contains many recipes using the tail of these sheep. It was used much as we use cooking oil or lard in almost every recipe that was meat based. Ras Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 00:40:38 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: Re: SC - Fat tailed sheep "Alderton, Philippa" wrote: > I remember a fe months ago, we had a thread in fat tailed sheep, and a few > questions have come up on another List I'm on. Anybody have any references, > whether to recipes, commentary, or other references? From Reay Tannahill's "Food in History": "The pastoral peasant tradition of the Near East contributed the oil in which almost every Baghdad dish was put to cook -- alya, the fat rendered from sheep's tails. Time after time al-Baghdadi began his instructions with the words, 'Cut meat into middling pieces; dissolve tail and throw away the sediment. Put the meat into this oil and let it fry lightly...' The popularity of tail fat may have had something to do with the existence of the local fat-tailed sheep, though whether as cause or effect remains a matter for debate." As both Ras and Tannahill state, al-Baghdadi is full of references to cooking in rendered tail fat. It may not be a 100% valid assumption that what they're talking about is the fat-tailed sheep we know, but it seems pretty reasonable. Even if alya is presumed to be a modern term, do we know if anything like it appears in al-Baghdadi in its original text? Adamantius Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 11:52:15 -0000 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" Subject: Re: SC - Fat tailed sheep Phlip wrote: >Anybody have any references, >whether to recipes, commentary, or other references? There is a very interesting three-page article, "The Fate of the Tail" by Charles Perry in "Disappearing Foods", the 1994 Oxford Symposium papers. Basically, he says that in the 9th century Kit‚b al-Tabib only half a dozen recipes call for tail fat, but says "the reason may simply be that tail fat was out of favor at the court of the Caliphs". Most later Arab cookbooks call for tail fat (al-Baghdadi is "saturated with tail fat", Perry says). But he does point out that in later versions of al-Baghdadi, there are several added recipes and they do not usually call for tail fat so its use may have declined. "The most popular cookbook of the Arab Middle Ages, to judge from the number of manuscripts that have survived, was Kit‚b al-Wusla al-Habib. Tail fat has a prominent place in the book. Recipes for rendering it constitute the fourth chapter. Alya is expicitly called for in 34 recipes, and the "fat" referred to in 18 more recipes was almost certainly from the tail, judging on the basis of similarities in wording or the very quantity of fat called for. The fat has two principal uses. Boiled meat is typically pounded and then fried in tail fat before adding to a stew, and in starchy dishes such as pilaf and lentils, tail fat is for flavoring, commonly poured in shortly before the dish is done often together with as honey, vinegar, sugar syrup or spices (even, in some cases, other fats such as sesame oil, olive oil and/or clarified butter)." There is also a very interesting one-page article on fat-tailed sheep in The Oxford Companion to Food. Nanna Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 02:08:13 +0100 From: Thomas Gloning Subject: SC - Fat tailed sheep << I remember a few months ago, we had a thread in fat tailed sheep, and a few questions have come up on another List I'm on. Anybody have any references, whether to recipes, commentary, or other references? >> Here are some gleanings: - -- Grewe, R.: Hispano-Arabic cuisine in the twelfth century. In: Lambert, C. (Dir.): Du manuscrit ‡ la table. MontrÈal/ Paris 1992, 141-148. ÑOne of the most characteristic features of this cuisine is that olive oil is the basic, and almost the only, cooking fat. (...) the fat of the fat-tailed sheep, so common in the Near East, does not seem to have taken root in Spain (p. 143). - -- Heine, P.: Kulinarische Studien. Untersuchungen zur Kochkunst im arabisch-islamischen Mittelalter. Mit Rezepten. Wiesbaden 1988. [Culinary studies. Inquiries into the art of cookery of the Arabic-Islamic Middle Ages. With recipes.] He mentions alya, the fat of the fat-tailed sheep, on several pages (see his “Index der arabischen Termini” s.v. Ñalyaì) and gives references to al-Baghdadi, Wusla, and al-Warraq. - -- Rodinson, M.: Recherches sur les documents arabes relatifs ‡ la cuisine. In: Revue des Ètudes islamiques 17 (1949) 95-165. [ëStudies into the arabic sources pertaining to cookingí.] Says among other things, that the use of alya was an element of the cuisine paysanne that entered into or was part of the cuisine of the prince in the 12th/13th century. -- If I am not mistaken, there is still no edition/translation of the Wusla, so his description of this cookbook is still important. -- You find the pages on alya with his ÑIndex arabe, turc et persan (p. 159); there is also a literary source mentioned, where the tail is the ambassador in a quarrel between King Sheep (or Mutton) and King Honey. The principal sources mentioned are: Al-Baghdadi: Chelebi, D. (ed.): Kitab al-Tabikh. Mosul (Umm al-rabi'ain Press) 1934. [Engl. ‹bs.: Arberry, in: Islamic Culture, 13, 1939.] Arberry, A.J.: A Baghdad cookery book. In: Islamic Culture 13 (1939) 21-47; 184-214. The Wusla: see the description in Rodinson al-Warraq: ÷hrnberg, K./ Mroueh, S. (eds.): Ibn Sayyar al-Warraq, Kitab al-Tabikh. Helsinki 1987 (Studia Orientalia 60). [Arabic text; no translation; short English introduction.] Thomas Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 02:57:56 EST From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Fat tailed sheep Susan.P.Laing at mainroads.qld.gov.au writes: << Think I'll be sticking to the Lard or oil substitutes (since the Australian sheep industry tends to "dock" the tail >> Lamb fat would be a far better substitute than either lard or oil. Neither lard nor oil possess the requisite flavor that tail fat does. Also pork is not eaten by followers of al-Islam making lard a completely unsatisfactory substitute. Another point you may want to consider is that recipes calling for tail fat oftentimes call for other types of oil and/or fats in addition to the tail fat. Ras Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 12:04:27 -0000 From: nanna at idunn.is (Nanna Rognvaldardottir) Subject: Re: SC - Fat tailed sheep Ras wrote: >Lamb fat would be a far better substitute than either lard or oil. Neither >lard nor oil possess the requisite flavor that tail fat does. Quite correct, but tail fat is softer than inside fat from lamb, has a lower melting point and does not have the tallowy aftertaste that inside fat sometimes does, so it may not be totally interchangeable. Not that I have much experience with tail fat, as Icelandic sheep are short-tailed, but I understand the fat has much the same characteristics as the soft deposits of fat sometimes found around the throat, or on the feet. Fotafeiti, "feet fat" - that is, rendered fat from sheep’s feet - used to be the preferred fat here for frying sweet things like kleinur, love balls and pancakes, because of these characteristics. Nanna Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:26:15 -0000 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" Subject: Re: SC - Fat tailed sheep Adamantius wrote: >ha...I wonder if this is a facet of a different level of hydrogenation, >or a difference in the tissues themselves. Charles Perry has an explanation that I’m not quite sure I understand but it goes like this: "An animal can only metabolize its fat in liquid form. The inevitable consequence of this is that fat stored near the surface of the body, where it is influenced by ambient temperatures which are usually lower than the body¥s own temperature, has a lower melting point than fat stored deep in the body. ... Unlike hard fat, however, which might be deposited in large, convenient lumps in the interior of the carcass, most soft fat was scantily dispersed all over the body subcutaneously. Sheep sometimes deposit larger lumps of soft fat in other places, such as the neck and throat. These deposits have limited value, however; there might be cool ambient temperatures on one side of the lump but warm body temperatures on the other. Fat deposited on the tail turned out to be the solution. Surrounded as it is by cool temperatures, the tail can be home to a substantial slab of fat with a texture somewhat like bacon, though of course with a muttony aroma." (The same would go for the feet; any fat deposited there would also be surrounded by lower temperatures on all sides.) Nanna From - Fri Apr 14 00:14:38 2000 To: spca-wascaerfrig at egroups.com Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 22:05:30 EDT From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: [spca-wascaerfrig] Mongolian hot pot for a meal? In a message dated 4/13/00 1:14:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, stefan at texas.net writes: << I'm not sure whether Asia had sesame oil in our period or not. Europe didn't, I'm pretty sure. >> Both Greece and the Kingdom of Jerusalem knew sesame oil as did Andelusia. Andelusia being the most western of western Europe, I would say that sesame oil definitely WAS period in Europe. Ras Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 16:14:17 -0700 From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: Re: SC - an interesting challenge...and its even about medieval food! :) Allison, allilyn at juno.com wrote: >Chiquart's chickpeas--vegan (SNIP) >[possibly, if almond oil is not available, olive oil and >almond extract might be used. (SNIP) No need to put almond extract into your cooking oil. Almond oil, aka sweet almond oil, is very "mild" and doesn't have a strong flavor, unlike a good olive oil has a very pronounced flavor. Sweet almond oil doesn't taste like bitter almond, which is the common "almond flavor". So I'd say, if you have no almond oil, use a light vegetable oil of some sort (not peanut, for example, as it too has a pronounced flavor). But you can find sweet almond oil at health food stores where the other cooking and salad oils are, so you might give it a try. Anahita al-shazhiyya Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 08:44:34 EDT From: ChannonM at aol.com Subject: SC - Re: Refrying fritters > If the temp is too low > they get really grease soaked and heavy. Another > thing, use peanut oil for frying if using a vegetable > oil. Stuff doesn't burn as fast because it has a > higher smoke/burn temp. If you are trying to maintain a period dish, using canola oil would be a better substitute. Canola is known in period as rape seed oil (or the vegetable rape), hence the name change to a more PC term. The etymology has something to do with the latin I believe (notes are not at hand). Hauviette Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 18:05:04 PDT From: "Bonne of Traquair" Subject: Re: SC - Re: Refrying fritters > > use peanut oil for frying if using a vegetable > > oil. Stuff doesn't burn as fast because it has a > > higher smoke/burn temp. > >If you are trying to maintain a period dish, using canola oil would be a >better substitute. Is the allergen some people are sensitive to present in peanut oil? If so, then canola oil is not only better for being an oil that might have been used in period, but it leaves you out of the allergic reaction by unknowing diner scenario. Bonne (who recently learned that, back home, a friend with food allergies who DOES ask the cook in advance in order to make informed choices, was not fully informed and had to make a sudden exit from feast to hospital last weekend.) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 00:12:44 -0000 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" Subject: Re: SC - Lucrezia in Marketland - mainly OOP - LONG Lucrezia wrote: >I also picked up some goose fat (which was great on roast potatoes) but >there's heaps too much for me to use over the next couple of weeks. Anyone >know if it'll be OK if I throw some of it in the freezer? You can but you shouldn¥t need to. It keeps very well. I just finished the goose fat I bought in London in February - I simply kept it in the fridge. And I brought some more home from Hungary - just wish I could have brought more but there were so many foodstuffs I had to bring home ... Nanna Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 09:35:08 -0000 From: "Nanna Rognvaldardottir" Subject: Re: SC - goose fat Stefan wrote: >Wow. This sounds wonderful. I really liked the duck fat that I've >gotten when cooking ducks. Is goose fat very similar? It never occurred >to me that such an item might be available seperately. But then duck >is not common here and I've never seen goose nor ever eaten any. Fairly similar, although I¥ve never had commercially rendered duck fat for comparision, but the fat I get from my own duck-cooking seems to have much the same qualities as goose fat. The taste is slightly different but not so it matters greatly. Duck and goose fat is the preferred cooking fat of Southwestern France and Hungary, for instance. It is great for roasting potatoes and other vegetables, or for browning meat and poultry (use it by itself or mixed with some oil). Or try to add a spoonful or two to soups and stews. Or use it in piecrusts for savoury pies. I¥m sure it is loaded with cholesterol and other things that are bad for you but goose fat, at least, is mostly monosaturated fat and has a much lower ratio of saturated fat than butter or lard. Nanna Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:56:18 -0000 From: "Nanna Rognvaldardottir" Subject: Re: SC - goose fat Stefan wrote: >Those are two widely spaced regions. Is there any particular simularity to >the cuisine that would make goose fat preferable? Or is it not unique >to those areas and was at one time used in Germany and areas in between >as well? Is there any particular reason southwest France and Hungary >would raise more goose than other places? Or perhaps there is some >reason that the use of goose fat stands out more in those two regions? Well, one similarity that springs to mind is that both the French and the Hungarians are very fond of goose liver, which means the overstuffed geese yield a LOT of fat. I¥m told the ideal conditions for geese are sandy soil and lots of sun, which would hold true for both the Great Plain of Hungary and parts of Southwestern France. (And Hungarian goose liver is absolutely delicious; the sautÈed goose liver with apples that I had at the Gundel restaurant in Budapest last week was one of the best things I¥ve ever eaten, and the true highlight of a wonderful seven-course meal). These are not the only regions where goose fat is used, though. It is used to some extent in Germany, Switzerland and Austria, for instance, and in Romania and some of the Balkan countries. Nanna Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 08:21:07 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - goose fat IIRC, they are both within the Saxon held lands between the 9th and 12th Centuries. Also, one needs to consider that the use of bird fat, chicken fat in particular is common to Jewish cookery across Europe. Bear Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 19:29:46 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: Re: SC - crendering chicken fat KarenO wrote: > Does anyone know what the process for rendering chicken fat for pie crust? > I've been making chicken stock, and my roomie tells me tales of how a > former co-worker used to render the chicken fat to make her pie crusts. > I've been cooling the stock, and skimming off the fat layer, even freezing > some. You can do that, but another method would be to pull the neck and apron (abdominal) fat off the raw chicken, then freeze it until you have a pound or two, or more, then render that. You can render fatty portions of skin, too. A good method is to very gently simmer the fat with a little water, until the skin and connective tissue soften, allowing for the fat to render more efficiently. When the water has cooked off, the real rendering begins, but the process ends up being faster and better in the long run because there's less potential for browning of the fat. > Also, can I freeze the fat (as is now) and finish the process later? Yuss. I've never had a piecrust made with chicken fat. Maybe knoedeln, but I guess it would work. Adamantius Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 10:47:46 -0400 From: "Nicholas Sasso" Subject: Re: SC - rendering chicken fat In my reading of Grigson's Charcuterie and some other references from turn of the century, grinding the material before the rendering will give you a generally easier and more efficient extraction. The tissues are all broken up, and there is a quicker melting of the animal fat before the surrounding tissues brown/burn. I am teaching a basic class on rendering beef and pork fats in November in GA. Promises t be fun. The method I am using is heating water in quantity (say three gallons) and then adding ground tissues to the pot. The tissues render and sink a little, leaving the fats floating on top. Skim the fat off, press the tissues, and you got lard/tallow. The water serves to regular/diffuse the heat and prevent scorching. Cool stuff. Anyone got medieval references to how to render? I haven't looked through Menagier or Scully's stuff yet, and that is my weekend project. niccolo difrancesco Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 02:58:34 EDT From: Mordonna22 at aol.com Subject: SC - Rendering fat I have not attempted to render chicken any kind of fowl fat, but I have done pork and beef. When we butchered hogs, we rendered the lard thusly: 1.) clean a 55 gallon cast iron cauldron and place on a hot fire to preheat 2.) remove the fat and skin from the hog and cut into pieces about 3 inches on a side. 3.) place the fat and skin into the cauldron, adding just enough water to keep it from scorching. 4.) add minimum amounts of water occasionally until there is enough lard to keep the fat from scorching. 5.) when the "cracklings" are golden brown, and floating, remove from the fire and strain the lard into a clean, dry receptacle for storage. 6.) press the cracklings in a lard press to remove as much lard as possible. 7.) gorge on the hot, crisp cracklings.....this is the only time they are really good, in my opinion. Mordonna The Cook SunDragon, Atenveldt m.k.a. West Phoenix, AZ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 16:41:45 -0400 From: margali Subject: Re: SC - crendering chicken fat It depends on how pure you want it. I know that when I make schmaltz, I take the warm chicken fat, add about 2x as much water and whisk the bejesus out of it, then let it stand and use one of the gravy separators to pour the water out from underneath, and repeat once or twice. the water will pull out any non-fat impurities and excess congealed protein that can cause cloudiness. If you dont care about the protein and any little cooking remenants that just skimming the fat off the stock and saving it works. margali Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 21:23:43 From: "Vincent Cuenca" Subject: SC - fat consumption in period To add on to Adamantius' comments on fats (I deleted the digest so I can't quote directly): Maguelonne Toussaint-Samat's "History of Food" cites regional preferences for cooking fats. Lard was popular pretty much everywhere it was available, but southern Europe preferred olive oil over butter. She cites several accounts of Provencal and Catalan travelers bringing large supplies of oil with them when they were forced to travel northward; there was an apparent belief that eating butter caused leprosy. Of course, northern travelers in Italy experienced the opposite reaction; they were sickened by the smell of hot olive oil and pined for good northern butter. Now, Mme. Toussaint-Samat has some pretty heavy Francophilic tendencies, and she buys into the idea of half-rotten meat being popular in the Middle Ages, so I'm not taking her quite at face value. Her scholarship does seem to be pretty solid, though. Vicente Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 08:33:50 -0800 From: Susan Fox-Davis Subject: Re: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #2934 - noodles with sugar Platina also tells how to make schmaltz, not by that name but the process of the extraction of usable cooking fat from animal fatty tissues is more or less the same and he mentions the use of Goose and other poultry at the end of the paragraph. Book at home, Me at work, but that's how I seem to recall it. Platina is turning out to be surprisingly useful for documenting use of familiar elements in modern Jewish cooking, isn't he? Selene From: rcmann4 at earthlink.net To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 23:29:37 -0400 Subject: Re: medieval healthy food was Re: [Sca-cooks] Tiramisu On 18 Jun 01,, LrdRas at aol.com wrote: > I would also prominently remind people that olive oil was being substituted > for lard if the original does not indicate such a substitution. While other > fats can be substituted for lard in certain recipes such substitutions not > only change the final flavor of the dish but also takes it from the realms of > a period recipe to a modern recipe based on a a period source. That depends on the recipe. In period Spanish cuisine, olive oil is listed over and over again as the substitution for lard/bacon fat in Lent. Nola explicitly says that a water-salt-oil mixture can be used as a substitute for broth to make flesh-day recipes suitable for Lent. So in a recipe for leek pottage, I might choose to make a Lenten version, and replace the bacon fat with oil. Yes, there will be a taste difference, but the result will not be a modern dish. (Although it will serve the modern purpose of being vegetarian- friendly.) On the other hand, I would not make that substitution in a recipe for chicken livers fried in bacon fat with egg yolks. There is no period justification for doing so, and it would not accomplish anything useful. Lady Brighid ni Chiarain Settmour Swamp, East (NJ) From: "Hrolf Douglasson" To: Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Cauldron cooking Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 23:02:00 +0100 > I've got vegan friends too, including our baroness. Please clarify for me > what you mean by "vegetarian suet"? Its made by the same people as make UK brands of pure suet (ATORA) and is vegatarian/vegan. I have found that it reacts exactly the same as the normal stuff. Available in supermarkets this side of the water vara From: jenne at fiedlerfamily.net Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 08:17:48 -0400 (EDT) To: SCA-Cooks maillist Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] olives in period Russia > > BTW, other oils such as poppyseed, hempseed and flaxseed were used. > Used where? In northern Europe? Or do you mean in Russia? I believe all three were used in Russia. Poppyseed and hempseed oil were used in Poland. Hemp oil is mentioned in the Domostroi. Smith and Christian talk about the use of hempseed and flaxseed oil in _Bread and Salt_. However, looking at my notes, I don't see any documentation for poppyseed oil, though the Domostroi mentions keeping poppyseed on hand. > Which of these plants were grown in northern Europe? If there are > native plants that oil can be extracted from, does this mean that > it is less likely that they would have paid the price to import olive > oil? Or would taste (or even the extra expense) mean that olive was > still preferred? All of these plants: hemp, flax, field poppy, were grown in Northern Europe and Russia. In Poland, Olive oil was imported as a special luxury (according to Dembinska). Again, I don't have any references to olive oil in my few sources on Russian food. I'll try to remember to ask on the SIG list. -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa From: "Jim and Andi" To: Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Sesame oil, was Andalusian feast Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 10:38:44 -0600 -----Original Message----- Untoasted sesame oil is easy to find here, where both Vittoria and i live. Do you have a health food store (not a pill store) or natural foods store near you? We have quite a few around here and they all carry several different kinds of sesame oil. We also have a really wonderful market that sells fabulous produce that also carries the untoasted kind (Berkeley Bowl - so named because it used to be in the building that previously housed a bowling alley). Worth a look-see if anyone ever visits Berkeley. Untoasted is NOT likely to be at ethnic markets, in my experience. Since the toasted is used in several East Asian cuisines, not just Chinese, it is what you're most likely to find in the ethnic markets. Anahita ----------------------- I think it depends on what ethnic markets you have near you. I live in Nashville TN, and while the Asian markets only have the dark toasted sesame oil, the Middle Eastern markets have several different brands of the regular sesame oil. And the price difference can be astounding between the health food markets and the ethnic markets, *especially* for stuff like that. I would price it first, even if you have to drive a little ways for the cheaper ethnic store. I priced whole cardamom pods here just a few days ago, and at the local Wild Oats they cost $4.69 for 2 oz. but at the Indian market they cost $4 for a half-pound. Nuts, tahini, dates, and spices and rice were all significantly cheaper. Madhavi From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 11:41:43 -0500 Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lenten oils, was Honey Butter? On 6 Mar 2002, at 11:30, A F Murphy wrote: > What did people in the north use as cooking fats during Lent? They > couldn't use either butter or lard, which I think were otherwise the > standards. The only oil I know about in period (my knowledge not being > extensive) is olive oil, and while that might have been available, how > common would it have been? I'm sure the wealthy would have imported olive oil. The other oil that was in use was rapeseed oil (commonly called canola oil in modern U.S.) According to C. Anne Wilson in _Food and Drink in Britain_, large-scale cultivation of rapeseed did not begin until the 16th century; before that, the oil was mostly imported from Flanders. > Of course, this actually raises another question. As I write this, I > realize I take it for granted that they needed to brown onions, saut=E9 > some foods, pan fry fish... Did they, actually? I haven't read many > recipes yet, but it occurs to me that I don't think I have encountered > these techniques much, if at all, yet. There are period recipes for pan-frying all kinds of foods, though deep-frying recipes are rare. I took a quick look through the fish section of _Take a Thousand Eggs_. Most of the recipes call for grilling, roasting, or stewing the fish, but there are a few that say to fry them in oil. Brighid ni Chiarain *** mka Robin Carroll-Mann Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom From: jenne at fiedlerfamily.net Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 12:10:23 -0500 (EST) To: Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lenten oils, was Honey Butter? > What did people in the north use as cooking fats during Lent? They > couldn't use either butter or lard, which I think were otherwise the > standards. The only oil I know about in period (my knowledge not being > extensive) is olive oil, and while that might have been available, how > common would it have been? There's also poppyseed oil, flaxseed oil, and hempseed oil. I don't know how common they were outside of Eastern Europe though. I'm sure I have docs somewhere but one of my bookshelves suddenly suffered morbid lean a bit ago and everything I need seems to be trapped in there. -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa From: "Decker, Terry D." To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lenten oils, was Honey Butter? Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 11:27:36 -0600 Almost any seed can be crushed for oil. Walnut oil was fairly common in Northern Europe and the European almonds which appear in cookbooks all over Europe contain more oil than those we eat in the US. Hemp and flax seed have also been pressed for their oil. I seem to remember complaints about the price of olive oil in Northern Europe. Prior to the 13th Century, information about olive oil imports may prove sketchy, but after the founding of the Hanseatic League in 1241, I believe you will find imports of olive oil listed in their records. I also suspect a number of people honored the Lenten prohibition by simply neglecting it. Bear From: "Chickengoddess" To: Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 07:52:25 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Lenten oils FYI, the Orthodox Catholic tradition rules out olives and olive oil for lent. Now, looking at the pre-Trent Roman Catholic Church, we see that it is much less like what the RC Church has evolved into in modern times and much more like the Eastern Orthodox traditions in both liturgy and custom. In the Eastern Churches (Greece, Serbia, Russia, Antiochian, Jerusalem, etc) lent means no meat, fish dairy or olive products. Strict observance means totally oil free. For some odd reason shrimp and shellfish are ok. Perhaps in this instance, it would be more useful to look into the religious sources of the period in western Europe for this information than the cooking sources, as the religious practices dictated the dietary changes. Just a thought, Rhiannon Cathaoir-mor South Downs, Meridies Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:28:06 -0400 Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period cooking oils? From: Daniel Myers To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org On Wednesday, July 10, 2002, at 08:08 PM, El Hermoso Dormido wrote: > I'm looking in my pantry and suddenly find myself wondering how > many oils besides olive oil are period... On a quick check, almond oil, walnut oil, "nut oil", and "special oil" are referenced in "Libellus de arte coquinaria" [Northern Europe, ca. 1300] (I've no idea what the last two oils are - and apparently neither did the translators). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edouard Halidai (Daniel Myers) http://www.bookofrefreshments.com/doc/ Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 17:37:52 -0700 From: Robin Carroll-Mann To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period cooking oils? On Wed, 10 Jul 2002 18:08:48 -0600 El Hermoso Dormido wrote: "I'm looking in my pantry and suddenly find myself wondering how many oils besides olive oil are period..." [snip] "Is almond or walnut oil period?" Almond oil and sesame oil were used for cooking, though they show up mostly in Middle Eastern and Mediterranean sources. I have seen other kinds of nut and seed oils in Spanish recipes for cosmetics. The Manual de Mugeres has a recipe for hand & face pomade, which calls for the following oils, in addition to lard and wax: sweet almonds bitter almonds peach seed melon seed poppy seed The same source also mentions sesame oil and masticin other recipes (for cosmetic use). I don't offhand recall seeing a mention of walnut oil in period sources, but as walnuts are frequently mentioned, I think it likely that someone was extracting oil from them. Brighid ni Chiarain Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 09:40:33 -0700 From: Susan Fox-Davis To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] proper cracklings Chiklins, that's a hoot! Did you ever notice that schmaltz is documentable from a source that we have? Look in Platina, near the beginning under "Liquimen." At the end of the lard-rendering process, they say that you can render chicken fat by the same method. Woohoo! Seton1355 at aol.com wrote: > Saw the title, had to comment! > OK, the Jewish version of cracklings is called *gribnis* Same cooking deal, > only we use chicken. Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 05:40:22 -0400 To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] schmaltz Also sprach Mark S. Harris: >What is "schmaltz"? I take it that it is a Jewish word (although it sounds >German, Yiddish?) for rendered chicken fat? How is it used? To fry >things in, like lard is? How does cooking in it compare to lard? Is it >not more common because chickens don't have much fat or is there some >other reason? I realize that the Jewish folks may simply accept any >additional difficulties since they avoid the more common pork fat/lard. I believe schmaltz just means fat, so while it can refer to rendered fat (something other than pork, but not necessarily chicken, although chicken is sort of the default setting for Jews, in most cases), it can also refer to herring taken in the season when they're especially fatty. I would say cooking in chicken fat (based on observation) is a little more like cooking in bacon fat (i.e. the rendered fat from cooking cured bacon) than like lard proper. I think it doesn't hold up as well for as long as lard does under high heat. I don't _think_ you'd use chicken fat for deep-frying, for example, because I think it burns a little more easily. However, you can use it for sauteeing, and even for pastry and other shortening purposes (for example, it's a common/traditional fat for things like matzoh balls). You can also spread it on bread, to moisten it, if, say, you're eating a dairyless meal and want to avoid butter. This isn't just applicable to Jewish foods, BTW: certain Chinese dishes can be cooked in chicken fat (Yangchow fried rice being traditionally cooked in either lard or chicken fat, for example), and there's a huge tradition in parts of Southwestern France and in Central Europe to cook in goose fat, which is somewhat similar. Adamantius From: "Terry Decker" To: Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] schmaltz Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 07:13:48 -0500 "Schmalz" is German for "cooking fat" or "lard." "Schmaltz" is the Yiddish form. The differentiation between lard and chicken fat is religious, as you surmise. When you deal with older texts it can be a little tricky to determine which is meant since the spelling was often phonetic. Bear >Ok, I guess it's been a while. So time for another Stefan question. > >What is "schmaltz"? I take it that it is a Jewish word (although it sounds >German, Yiddish?) for rendered chicken fat? How is it used? To fry >things in, like lard is? How does cooking in it compare to lard? Is it >not more common because chickens don't have much fat or is there some >other reason? I realize that the Jewish folks may simply accept any >additional difficulties since they avoid the more common pork fat/lard. Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:12:45 -0400 From: Devra at aol.com To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: [Sca-cooks] Schmaltz I suspect that schmaltz isn't used as much as butter because there aren't a lot of convenient commercial sources for it, the way there are with butter I have seen it sold in jars (1 C?) in the long past, but can't remember seeing it recently. You can of course make your own; it just requires some attention to keep the fat from browning. And it keeps moderately well in the fridge. It's not that chickens don't have enough fat--you ever pull the loose fat out of a capon/oven stuffer roaster? Schmaltz was traditionally used to fry things like potato pancakes. Hard to do reduced cholesterol with it, though. Devra From: "Mercedes/Stephanie" To: Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Schmaltz Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:37:17 -0500 I can usually get it at a small, high end grocery store here in Tulsa, it's frozen and is usually with the kosher chickens and such. I used to pick up a container at a grocery store in Dallas that has a large kosher section, over near Forest Ln and Preston, maybe? I do remember, many years ago, that we used to buy it just refrigerated in jars in the butter area of the grocery store. I only use it when we make chopped liver. Mercedes Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:00:18 -0700 From: Susan Fox-Davis To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Schmaltz Chicken fat is just not as necessary for all-purpose cooking fat/bread spread since the invention of pareve margarine. [Pareve = neutral for purposes of milk vs. meat meals.] Between that and the modern medical knowlege that animal fats are bad for you, schmaltz' days were numbered. Let's face it, the traditional Ashkenazy diet has probably killed more Jews throughout the centuries than Hitler and Haman combined, and much more insidiously! This, says the woman who just had a last-hurrah meal of kishka and stuff before seriously contemplating the low-carb Atkins diet again. Urgh. Soy blini anybody? Selene Colfox Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:56:06 -0700 (PDT) From: robert frazier Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Turnip/rape? To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org rapeseed is a grain crushed for cooking oil.the first large amounts sold.modernly,was by the canadian oil company.because rape is a bad word it's known as "canola oil". The oil has been found as far back as the norse digs in dublin.very period and cheap. robert frazier stallarifannsk household,An Tir To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" Subject: [Sca-cooks] Turnip/rape? Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 16:04:13 -0500 Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org > So if "rapes" are turnips, what is rapeseed? Is it turnip seed, or a > different plant entirely? > > Vicente Actually "rapes" are Brassica napus var. napobrassica better known as the Swedish turnip or rutabaga or B. napus var. napus, the canola or annual rape, close relatives of Brassica rapa var. rapa, the field turnip. Of course the average peasant probably called everything that looked like a turnip, a rape. Rapeseed are the seeds of the rutabaga and rapeseed oil is the oil pressed from the seeds. Canola oil is rapeseed oil which is low in erucic acid and is pressed from the seeds of the canola. Bear Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 23:18:06 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] plea for help-- Soup for the Qan To: "Cooks within the SCA" Fat-tailed sheep are called that because they store large quantities of fat in the nether regions around the tail. There are a number of breeds, most of which have very coarse wool suitable for carpets. I haven't worked with it but I would think that mutton fat or beef tallow would be closer than butter. It is definitely not marrow. Bear >> would the marrow in the sheep's tail have had an effect other than >> the butter? > > I had read (somewhere) that the sheeps tail was used for the fat content, > and one of the suggested substitutes was .. butter? Maybe I got that > wrong? > >> Jared > Maggie Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 15:36:22 -0800 From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Holiday Sweets To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Katira wrote: [talking about hais] > I get a mixture that holds together well and is more > like a sweet than a travel food (Cariadoc's version is > so dry it is almost impossible to shape according to a > helper at a feast he was doing, though it was still > quite tasty). I also tried the sesame oil in my first > version and felt it overpowered all the other flavors. > I also found it was quite an oily mixture. Ugh. The > butter is perfect for my taste. Did you use a nice cold-pressed sesame oil from a health food store? Or one from a Middle Eastern market? Or the dark roasted East Asian kind from the supermarket? I find a good quality cold-pressed sesame oil has a wonderful flavor that adds rather than detracts from the dishes to which it is added. Spectrum oils has two. I prefer the cold-pressed organic for flavor, but it is more expensive than their other oil, so I buy a bit of each for feasts, for a compromise for best flavor and price. Not too long ago, I decided to try the cheaper Middle Eastern sesame oil. Although the finished product was acceptable, and I imagine most diners didn't notice, it did not have the same wonderful fresh nutty flavor of the cold-pressed oil. I find this kind, which is hot pressed or chemically extracted I don't know which, to be bitter. The dark roasted East Asian sesame oil is generally available in supermarkets and several people on various lists have used it mistakenly. This kind was not used in Near Eastern food and is, of course, completely unsuitable, as it adds an overpowering flavor to the food, rather than the wonderful flavor of cold-pressed sesame oil. It is meant to be used only as a flavoring in finishing a dish and is added at the end after the dish has pretty much finished cooking. In the proper setting it is wonderful, but Near Eastern food is not the place it should be. Anahita Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 10:23:40 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Christiane Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Mediterranean food To: ekoogler1 at comcast.net, Cooks within the SCA Here's what Clifford Wright has to say about the use of butter and other animal fats in medieval Sicilian cuisine. What's really interesting to me is that he mentions the village where my grandmother came from, Corleone. "In the fourteenth century and up until the beginning of the eighteenth century, animal fats such as butter, bacon, lard, mutton fat (perhaps a vestige of the Arab presence), and beef suet were the fats used in Sicilian cooking. In fact, the preferred cooking fat in fifteenth-century Sicily was butter. According to the stricfizarii (taxation records), these were the largest purchases. In Corleone, a mountain town of western Sicily, butter was sold in a quartara, a kind of narrow-necked earthenware vessel and was sometimes the only food to accompany the bread available to the agricultural workers who used it frequently in place of cheese. Although olive oil, the cooking fat most closely associated with Sicilian cooking today, has been produced continually throughout Sicilian history, it was rare and expensive until recently. Although butter was used more than olive oil in Sicily, and it was a primary cooking fat, its production and distribution was neverthless limited. In the Middle Ages, only the Jews bought olive oil in quantity as pork fat was forbidden to them (the Muslim Sicilians having suffered their final expulsion in the 1230s). The Jewish cooks fondness for olive oil is partly behind this, but also most merchants dealing in Sicilian olive oil for export were Jews. Don’t let the abundant use of olive oil in contemporary Sicilian recipes fool you into thinking that olive oil was always abundant in Sicily. When olive oil, with its modest production, was used, it was used on bread or for seasoning dried vegetable soups." There are some useful essays on Mr. Wright's site about food history for the Mediteranean region. http://www.cliffordawright.com Gianotta Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 23:39:12 -0500 From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Grapeseed oil and liana syrup To: Cooks within the SCA On 15 Nov 2004, at 9:57, Patrick Levesque wrote: > Can we document grapeseed oil in period? (probably, but where?... > Actually, does > anybody knows of sources devoted specifically to oil pressing, and the > various > kind of oils used, in period? Specifically late period Italy, but any > reference > will be interesting... I'm heading off to the Florilegium right now to > check what's there :-)))) I know that grapeseed oil appears in the Manual de Mugeres (Spanish household manual, 15th/16th c.). However, it is in recipes for cosmetics. I don't know about culinary use, though I don't remember seeing it in other Spanish culinary sources. Sorry. Brighid ni Chiarain *** mka Robin Carroll-Mann Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 10:13:50 +0100 From: henna Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Devilled Eggs (was: Out of the food topic altogether rant Authenticitypolice) To: Cooks within the SCA On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 21:19:43 -0500, Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius wrote: > Also sprach Bill Fisher: >> On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 01:30:03 +0100, henna wrote: >>> They aren't fried in lard, but in butter or turnipfat :) >> >> What is "turnipfat" - I am not familiar with this? >> >> Anyone? > > Rapeseed oil? Which is, I believe, a period cooking fat in Northern > Europe? I think rapeseed oil as well, It's an oil made from the seeds of turnips (pretty yellow flowers :)), at least if turnip is indeed Brassica rapa 'cause otherwise there's a translation error. Finne Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 08:22:50 -0500 From: Bill Fisher Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Devilled Eggs (was: Out of the food topic altogether rant Authenticitypolice) To: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" Cc: Cooks within the SCA On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 21:19:43 -0500, Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius wrote: > Rapeseed oil? Which is, I believe, a period cooking fat in Northern > Europe? > > Adamantius Heh, rapeseed is otherwise known as canola oil, Rapes are a member of the mustard family. Rape oil was toxic until the crafty Canadians in Canadia bred a much less toxic version of the plant in recent history. Apparently erucic acid causes huge fatty deposits in and around the heart and kills you quickly. Brassicaceae, Cruciferae is the varietal. Cadoc Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 13:49:41 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Devilled Eggs (was: Out of the food topic altogetherrant Authenticitypolice) To: "Bill Fisher" , "Cooks within the SCA" Cruciferae (according to Juss) is the botanical family commonly called mustards. Brassicaceae is an alternative family name put forward by Burnett. The rape is genus Brassica species napus. Common varietals are napus, napobrassica, annua, biennis, and pabularia. Ain't taxonomy fun? Bear > Heh, rapeseed is otherwise known as canola oil, Rapes are a member of > the mustard family. Rape oil was toxic until the crafty Canadians in Canadia > bred a much less toxic version of the plant in recent history. > Apparently erucic > acid causes huge fatty deposits in and around the heart and kills you > quickly. > > Brassicaceae, Cruciferae is the varietal. > > Cadoc Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 09:47:15 -0800 From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Aqras Mukallala To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Someone wrote: >> Would this have been a roasted or a plain sesame oil? I seem to >> remember comments on this list that what you wanted for medieval Middle >> Eastern recipes was the non-roasted stuff, which was harder to find, >> and I think my searching for it bore this out. Yes, UNROASTED. Here in Berzerkley, i have no problem finding cold-pressed sesame oil. Jadwiga wrote: > By the way, if you find a reasonably priced source for this, I want > some. Sesame oil (the light kind) > is the base for Neutrogena body oil. I buy good quality cold pressed sesame oil at the health food store - i get Spectrum brand. How reasonable the price is depends on how much you want to buy. IIRC, it's around $4 for 12 ounces. Since i only use it occasionally (and i keep it in the fridge to retard oxidation, i.e., so it doesn't get rancid too fast), i don't mind paying the price for good flavor and quality. I have tried the sesame oil from the Middle Eastern market, which is cheaper, but ya gets what ya pays for. It was nowhere near as good in freshness or flavor as the health food brand. If i were putting oil on my skin, i'd want the cleanest freshest i could get, so i'd go for the Spetrum brand. -- Urtatim, formerly Anahita Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 22:44:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Kathleen Madsen Subject: [Sca-cooks] Cooking fats in period England To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org They used a lot of clarified butter (ghee) as their cooking fat. It was typical to have a pot of it above or near the cooking area so that it could be quickly added to the pot if needed. This is referenced in Ann Hagen's books on foods in Anglo-Saxon England, if I remember right - I don't actually own a copy. I've seen it in another spot and am wracking my brain to remember where. If I recall, I'll post it. Also, I've never seen reference in period manuscripts to bread served with butter spread upon it. It seems more like a modern convention that is a society-wide practice. My thoughts, Eibhlin Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 23:52:23 -0700 From: Susan Fox Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Cooking fats in period England To: Cooks within the SCA On 7/16/05 10:44 PM, "Kathleen Madsen" wrote: > They used a lot of clarified butter (ghee) as their > cooking fat. It was typical to have a pot of it above > or near the cooking area so that it could be quickly > added to the pot if needed. Well, they did not call it by the Hindi word "ghee" and actually, ghee proper is also cooked beyond mere melting and clarification to impart a slightly nutty flavor. This does not stop me from keeping a jar of pre-packaged ghee by my stove, for use as you describe. Ancient Anglo-Saxons unfortunately had very few South Asian mini-marts in their neighborhoods. Selene Colfox Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 22:21:09 -0400 From: Daniel Myers Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Cooking fats in period England To: Cooks within the SCA On Jul 17, 2005, at 3:42 PM, Carole Smith wrote: > There are other groups that use clarified butter today, and > probably in period as well. The Arabic word is samneh (pronounced > Sam nah with slight emphasis on the first syllable). And of course > clarified butter is used in French cooking as well. Interestingly enough, there is an ingredient with a similar name and purpose ("saim") being used in period France. Check lines 15 and 35 below. From "Enseignements qui enseingnent a apareillier toutes manieres de viandes" (ca. 1300) http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/%7Egloning/1300ens.htm http://www.medievalcookery.com/notes/lessons.shtm (my translation) |13| Char de porc: la loingne en rost, en yver e en estei, as aus vers. E qui en |14| veut en chivei si la depieche par morseaus; (c)e puis cuisiez oingnons en |15| saim, e broez de poivre e d'autres espices e pain ars, e desfaites en un |16| mortier; puis destrempez de l'eve ou le porc sera cuit; puis metez |17| boillir e metez sus les morseaus qui avront estei arochié e du sel, e tout |18| cen metez en escueles e du chivé de sus. (Pork: roasted loin, in winter and in summer, with green garlic. And which if wanted in gravy then cut it into pieces; And then cook onions in grease, and ground pepper and other spices and toasted bread, and grind in a mortar; Then temper with the water that the pork cooked in; Then put it to boil and put over the pieces which have been pulled and of salt, and all this put in a bowl with the gravy thereon.) [...] |32| por char de veel -- Char de veel en rost, la loingne parboullie en eve, e puis lardee e rostie |33| e mengie as aus vers ou au poivre. E se vous en volez a la charpie, parboulliez |34| la en eve e puis si la depechiez par morseaus en une pelle, et puis |35| frissiez les morseaus en une paiele en saim ou (la) lart, e puis metez des |36| oués batuz dessus, e puis poudrés [pondrez_(o')_Ms.] de sus de poivre, si sera charpie. E se |37| aucuns en veut en pasté, parboulliez la en eve e puis lardez, detrenchiez |38| par morseaus e les metez en pasté. (For veal -- Roasted veal, the loin parboiled in water, and then lard and eat with green garlic or pepper. And if you would like it minced, parboil it in water and then cut into pieces in a pan, and then fry the pieces in a pan in grease or bacon fat, and then put beaten eggs therein, and then sprinkle with pepper, then that is minced. And if otherwise wanted in a pie, parboil it in water and then lard it, slice into pieces and put it in a pie.) In both cases I translated this as "grease". Scully has "sain" and "saing" in the glossary of _Viandier_ and defines it as, "drippings from a roast, grease (esp. of pork)." Greg Lindahl's site seems to be down, so I can't check Cottgrave's dictionary. (I hope it's just temporary) - Doc -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edouard Halidai (Daniel Myers) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 09:01:49 -0800 From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Hais report To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Adamantius wrote: > On Nov 8, 2005, at 11:34 PM, CLdyroz at aol.com wrote: >> I really do not like the oil. I do agree that the next batch should >> use butter. > > If/when you used sesame oil, was it the toasted or untoasted-seed > variety? This would make a pretty dramatic difference in the flavor. > > I assume that, if the original calls for sesame oil, there's a good > chance they liked the flavor that way. It only remains to be explored > why your experience was different. Which, I of course realize, is > what you're doing... I find that using *quality* ingredients really does make a difference, at least, i can taste it. For "Middle Eastern" cuisine, *non-toasted* sesame oil is the kind to use. Very definitely NOT the dark roasted Chinese sesame oil. I love sesame oil. I sometimes mix half-and-half butter-and-sesame oil to make pie crusts. I've tried several different kinds. And they are not equals. I suspect the unpleasantness of the sesame oil in the hais was due to an inferior sesame oil. From a halal market: some brand from the Middle East. It was bitter, and had a slightly stale (not rancid) flavor and an unpleasant "greasy" feel. I used it because it was cheap - but i would NOT recommend it and will NOT use it again. From the health food store, Spectrum produces many vegetable oils. -- The Spectrum organic cold-pressed unrefined sesame oil was THE best. But expensive. I use it if i'm making something for myself and a couple other people. -- Spectrum has two other sesame oils that are cheaper - unrefined and refined - not quite as good as the unrefined organic, but good. For feasts i buy the cheaper one - the refined - it doesn't have the same wonderful earthy-nutty flavor of the unrefined organic, but it's not bad, and it's waaaaay better than the awful stuff from the halal market. Why use inferior ingredients that make a bad tasting dish? -- Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM) the persona formerly known as Anahita Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 20:31:11 -0500 From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Hais report To: Cooks within the SCA On Nov 15, 2005, at 7:26 PM, K C Francis wrote: >> From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" > -snip >> So, when you used sesame oil, what kind of sesame oil did you use? >> >> Adamantius > > can't be sure, but it might have been the toasted. I really like > how the butter works so that is always my choice for this recipe. Okay. The toasted-seed variety is usually pretty dark brown, often a Japanese brand like Kadoya. (Chinese brands can be even darker, almost opaque, with coffee-like overtones of flavor). Both toasted and untoasted types can sometimes go rancid fairly easily, too, so that might easily contribute to a sort of negative flavor effect. The untoasted-seed variety is lighter in color, almost colorless, like the oil that floats on top of a jar of tahini paste. It's a lot less aggressively flavored, and is probably the kind of oil preferred for Middle Eastern cookery. Adamantius Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 15:46:18 -0800 (PST) From: Carole Smith Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] used oil To: Cooks within the SCA Michael Gunter countgunthar at hotmail.com when talking about deep-frying a turkey wrote: >>> Speaking of cleanup, what's the best way to dispose of the used oil? Gunthar <<< I suppose in this time most of us don't cook with oils, much less fry, often. But growing up in the deep South with parents who lived through the 1930's depression, the idea of throwing away that much oil after one use was unthinkable. Mom would let the oil cool until after dinner, by which time the flour, etc. settled to the bottom of the cooking pot. She'd pour the clear oil into a glass container (such as a mayonnaise jar) and seal it. Next time she wanted to fry or saute, the jar of oil would appear on the counter. We had no air conditioning, and the oil never went rancid in the cupboard. She did keep two jars - one for fish and one for everything else. The sludgy bits left in the cooking pot were always a good beginning of gravy if we wanted it. I keep a jar of used oil in the cupboard, although I fry far less often than Mom. I don't tell people about it because their reaction is always the same Eeeewwww! Cordelia Toser Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 09:27:41 -0400 From: Elaine Koogler Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] mongolian meat cakes To: Cooks within the SCA Terry Decker wrote: > Roasted has a very strong flavor, and the feastcrat > cut what she used with sunflower oil. I would imagine there would > be a great difference in the flavor of roasted vs. unroasted sesame oil. > > ~Aislinn~ > > I use the toasted sesame oil primarily in hummus, because I prefer the > flavor. > > Bear Several Middle Eastern recipes call for sesame oil, and it was determined that the roasted oil was just too strong. I was able to get cold pressed oil from a Web site (in fact, I found it on E-Bay!!), though you should be able to get it at health food stores, if no where else. Kiri Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 12:18:23 -0400 From: "Martha Oser" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sesame Oil (was: Mongolian Meat Cakes) To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org You should also be able to find the "light" sesame oil in a Middle Eastern market, if you have one nearby. It is light in color and flavor, rather than the caloric "lite" of the modern day. I am also finding it in the "international food" aisle of many large grocery stores these days - Meijer, for example, if you're familiar with them. The "al-Ziyad" brand seems to be the most prevalent. It has a label that's mainly yellow with some green and red print. -Helena > Several Middle Eastern recipes call for sesame oil, and it was > determined that the roasted oil was just too strong. I was able to > get cold pressed oil from a Web site (in fact, I found it on E-Bay!!), > though you should be able to get it at health food stores, if no > where else. > > Kiri Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 11:06:40 -0700 From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] mongolian meat cakes To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org First, as far as i can tell, toasted sesame oil is not really used as a basic cooking oil in East Asian cooking. It seems to me it is more of a flavoring, generally added near or at the end of cooking, or used for something that doesn't take long to cook. Second, the sesame oil used in Near and Middle Eastern cooking is from untoasted sesame seeds. Third, purchasing: I recommend Spectrum brand which i get at "health food" stores. They make several versions. The organic cold-pressed unrefined has the very best delicious earthy sesame flavor, but is more expensive than the others. The unrefined and the refined are both good and less expensive. Get what you can afford. I just noticed that it is also sold by Amazon.com, of all places, but i'd expect shipping to be a bit pricey. I have purchased sesame oil at a local Middle Eastern market and found it an inferior product, at least the brand i bought. But if it's all you can find, it is tolerable. I found it greasy feeling, bitter, and having an almost rancid quality. I suspect that the way the oil is extracted is affecting the flavor, as well, perhaps, as the way it had been stored and shipped. In any case, what i tried i found to be barely acceptable. But it sure was cheaper than the Spectrum. Of course, once you open a bottle of oil, it MUST be kept in the fridge, unless you will be using it all up rapidly. An opened bottle sitting on the counter, and especially if it's getting sunlight or near the stove, will oxidize, i.e., turn rancid. This will adversely affect the flavor of the food cooked with it. Olive oil doesn't do well in the fridge - since part will solidify - but keeping it in a cool dark place will prolong its life. However, if you rarely use it, keeping it in the fridge won't be bad, just be sure to take it out long enough ahead of time so it can reach room temperature and liquify. I also want to stress that the quality of ingredients one uses really has an effect on the flavor of dishes. For example, when yogurt is called for, i use whole milk yogurt without added stabilizers (no gelatin, no gums, no carrageenan, etc.) - and i'd use sheep's milk yogurt for Middle Eastern dishes if it weren't so darn expensive. When i'm cooking feasts, i have to make some compromises based on my budget, but i weigh them carefully. Sesame oil affects the flavor of the dishes that call for it, and i've found that spending an extra couple dollars for the good stuff was not a budget breaker. -- Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM) the persona formerly known as Anahita Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 14:19:48 -0400 From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Olive oil (was Re: Bread Recipe from my files) To: Cooks within the SCA >> since it had to be imported...so if you're looking at, say, 14th-century >> English recipes, you wouldn't see a ton of olive oil, but it'd be >> all over the Italian cookbooks of the same period. > > While olives (or at least olive oil) would have been imported into > northern Europe, I don't believe that they were so rare as to be > hugely expensive. Yup, I think you may be looking at a consequence of the butter line here, in that butter would be more available above the butter line than below it. There's stuff about oils and fats in the 2002 Oxford Symposium on Food and Cookery http://www.oxfordsymposium.org.uk/contents2002.html Judy Gerjuoy gave a presentation there on the medieval fats but I don't think it made it into the proceedings. > I'll try to find more concrete evidence, but given the above in > connection with the number of recipes I've seen which call for olive > oil (including some that use it for frying), I'm inclined to believe > that while it was more expensive than lard, it was not considered > overly expensive and was commonly used in large quantities by the > middle and upper classes. I think I'd agree. -- -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 02:53:53 -0500 (EST) From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] lard vs. olive oil vs. butter To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Bear wrote: <<< From what I've read, the local fats of southern Europe tended to be lard rather than butter and I'm curious as to how extensively butter was used in the Moslem cultures of the period. >>> The most common cooking fat in primarily Muslim cultures was sheep tail fat from fat tail sheep. This is true in the 'Abbasid cookbooks (ibn Sayyar al-Warraq (9th & 10th c.) and al-Baghdadi (1226)) and Ottoman recipes (15th c.). And it is also used in al-Andalus. It is used for meat dishes and occasionally shows up in sweets. In the 'Abbasid cookbooks, sesame oil is the second most common cooking oil. It is used for savories and sweets. Of course, this is UNroasted sesame oil, not the dark stuff used to flavor East Asian dishes and not for cooking. I think it is not much used in 13th c. al-Andalus, but i'll have to double check. Sesame oil is used for some 15th and 16th c. Ottoman sweets, but rarely savories. It is assumed that when oil is called for, and sesame oil is not mentioned, then it is olive oil, in 'Abbasid cookbooks. They almost never specify olive oil by name, although olives are used. It is also common in Andalusi recipes. But olive oil was *never* used for cooking in the kitchens of the Ottoman Sultans in 15th and 16th century Constantinople. It is likely that the common people used olive oil, but it doesn't figure in any surviving Ottoman recipes. Finally, butter is the preferred fat for sweets in Ottoman recipes, and is also used in some savories. Butter is only rarely used in 'Abbasid recipes. Andalusi recipes use butter in some sweets and pastries. As for the recipes in the 14th century Mamluk Egyptian cookbook, the Book of the Description of Familiar Foods, i'll have to go double check. The core of the book is a copy of al-Baghdadi, which reflect the above comments, but hundreds more recipes have been added from other sources and i'm not certain what they call for off the top of my head. -- Urtatim (that's urr-tah-TEEM) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 06:27:16 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] lard vs. olive oil vs. butter To: "Cooks within the SCA" Bear said: <<< From what I've read, the local fats of southern Europe tended to be lard rather than butter and I'm curious as to how extensively butter was used in the Moslem cultures of the period. >>> Yes, we've discussed butter use in southern Europe previously. But I thought the alternative was olive oil, although lard is also likely. Butter being used less because it doesn't keep as well in warmer climates. But when was olive oil used vs. lard? Why would each be used? I might at first say lard was cheaper than olive oil, but that might not have been the case in the Middle Ages. Like butter, lard wouldn't have been used on fish days, right? And lard, typically (always?) from pigs wouldn't have been used in the Moslem parts of southern Europe. Stefan ------ The point of some of the previous posts in the thread is puff pastry is a technology transfer from Moslem to Christian Europe. The contention is that the basic technique of puff pastries using butter moved from one to the other. Olive oil was used by both cultures. Moslems and Jews used sheep and chicken fat. Christians used lard (the pig was ubiquitous in Europe and lard was cheaper than olive oil, particularly in northern Europe). AFAIK, butter is the least used fat in southern Europe. Unless one can answer how and when butter became the fat of choice in Moslem pastries, then the contention that puff pastry is a transfer from Moslem to Christian Europe is flawed. Olive oil and leaf pastry almost certainly pre-dates Islam in Europe, so might not butter and leaf pastry be a central European substitution that was adopted by the Ottomans? What, and how solid, is the evidence for any of these positions? Bear Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 09:28:30 -0500 From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] lard vs. olive oil vs. butter To: Cooks within the SCA On Nov 22, 2008, at 1:52 AM, Stefan li Rous wrote: <<< Yes, we've discussed butter use in southern Europe previously. But I thought the alternative was olive oil, although lard is also likely. >>> Olive oil and lard are both common alternatives, but there's no single alternative, and it depends on where and when you're speaking of. <<< Butter being used less because it doesn't keep as well in warmer climates. >>> Well, unless you clarify it, which some people did and do in warmer climates. Another important consideration is that _cows_ don't always do as well in warmer climates. <<< But when was olive oil used vs. lard? Why would each be used? I might at first say lard was cheaper than olive oil, but that might not have been the case in the Middle Ages. >>> Speaking very generally, the local product is going to be cheaper. Other considerations are smoke point for frying (the temperature you can safely bring your fat to without it deteriorating and going rancid too quickly), moisture content (butter is used a lot in pastries requiring steam to provide the kind of dramatic inflation you see in things like puff pastry because of its water content). And, of course, whether or not your religious leaders have placed a temporary ban on one or the other. <<< Like butter, lard wouldn't have been used on fish days, right? And lard, typically (always?) from pigs wouldn't have been used in the Moslem parts of southern Europe. >>> Not unless you were a Christian, and in some places conversion wasn't complete. But generally, yes, and then these were the people that brought us tail-fat, right? Adamantius Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 15:00:28 -0500 From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] lard vs. olive oil vs. butter To: Cooks within the SCA > Butter being used less because it doesn't keep as well in warmer climates. <<< Well, unless you clarify it, which some people did and do in warmer climates. Another important consideration is that _cows_ don't always do as well in warmer climates. >>> The lard they sell in stores has been treated to be shelf stable. Untreated lard doesn't keep that well either, unless you have a cool place to store it. Ranvaig Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 19:34:47 -0600 From: Stefan li Rous Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] lard vs. olive oil vs. butter To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Suey said: <<< Of other grease products, as stated in various messages, sheep's tail fat was the best grease for Muslims in Southern Spain until olive groves were producing enough oil for cooking as it takes longer for olive oil to go rancid. In Northern Spain lard from pigs was the cheapest and the most commonly used for lack of olive groves but olive oil was used during Lent.. >>> What do you mean "until olive groves were producing enough for cooking"? Don't olive groves in Spain, in fact all throughout the Mediterranean, go back to ancient times? Well before the Muslims? Stefan -------- THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:43:19 -0500 From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] lard vs. olive oil vs. butter To: "Cooks within the SCA" On Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 8:34 PM, Stefan li Rous <<< What do you mean "until olive groves were producing enough for cooking"? Don't olive groves in Spain, in fact all throughout the Mediterranean, go back to ancient times? Well before the Muslims? >>> Olive trees were first brought to Spain by the Phoenicians, and were well-established by Roman times. The Muslims introduced many foods to Iberia, including citrus, peaches, and eggplant, but olives were already there. -- Brighid ni Chiarain Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 12:49:10 -0300 From: Suey Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] lard vs. olive oil vs. butter To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Elaine Koogler quered: <<< by Charles Perry, refer to "oil", they are talking about olive oil rather than the sesame oil found in other Muslim cultures? >>> I believe Perry and Huici are referring to olive oil although Perry has a note as to the type of sesame oil used in Islamic cooking, which can be confusing. I, personally, would not have mentioned that as I believe he is not referring to Andalusian cooking. Stefan quered: <<< What do you mean "until olive groves were producing enough for cooking"? Don't olive groves in Spain, in fact all throughout the Mediterranean, go back to ancient times? Well before the Muslims? >>> As Robin Carroll-Mann remarked the Phoenicians are thought to have brought olive trees to Spain. That was around 1050 BC. The Romans made an industry out of Spanish olive oil but that declined with the fall of Rome and during the three centuries of Goth rulership until Muslim domination. They increased and improved production. I maintain that during the early Muslim era there was not enough olive oil to go around in Andalusia much less other parts of Spain, all of which were under Muslim occupation for varied periods of time except the northwestern corner. Note Leon today imports olives and oil as the climate is not apt for groves. Suey Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 13:52:01 -0800 From: K C Francis Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] lard vs. olive oil vs. butter To: Cooks within the SCA I haven't yet read the rest of this thread, but wanted to comment that the Hais recipe from al-Baghdidi gives the option of sesame oil or melted butter. Can't speak to how many other recipes from this source use butter. Katira Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2009 21:54:03 -0400 From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Cooking with nut oil To: Cooks within the SCA On Aug 7, 2009, at 9:37 PM, Deborah Hammons wrote: <<< I spent part of this afternoon looking in the Florilegium for posts about cooking with nut oils. I found a lively discussion in 1997, but it didn't seem to address physically cooking with the nut oils. Not sesame or canola, those are seed oils. But something like frying in sweet almond oil or walnut oil. Hazelnut or pistacio oil? Aldyth >>> I haven't fried with them, but the ease with which many nut oils become rancid when stored at room temperature with even a small air space in the container suggests a rather low smoke point -- they appear to break down rather easily. With the exception of peanut oil... [Yes, neener neener, peanuts are not, strictly speaking, nuts...] Adamantius Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 10:39:20 +1300 From: Antonia Calvo To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] hais Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius wrote: <<< Yes, untoasted sesame oil, like the stuff that floats on top of the jar of tahini, is really not very strong in flavor. Rich, but not strong. >>> I think al-Baghdadi and others suggest sesame oil for frying pastries and the like... (dammit, I'm at the office and the book is at home under the bed!). -- Antonia di Benedetto Calvo Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 17:59:11 -0400 From: Elaine Koogler To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] hais Yes, particularly in the Arabic texts...either lamb tail fat or sesame oil. When you get to other parts of the Middle East, they do use primarily olive oil...and it is the unroasted sort. I rarely find it in regular grocery stores (Safeway, etc.) but find it often in gourmet grocery stores and in Middle Eastern stores. I've started using it occasionally in my every day cooking because of the nice, sort of nutty flavor it brings. Kiri On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 5:39 PM, Antonia Calvo wrote: <<< I think al-Baghdadi and others suggest sesame oil for frying pastries and the like... (dammit, I'm at the office and the book is at home under the bed!). Antonia di Benedetto Calvo >>> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:26:39 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Table Fat << Schmalz is just a generic term for fat, as the Schmalz you will find on a german farmhous table is rendered pig fat. So Schmalz is probably only chicken fat in Jewish households. Then there is Butterschmalz, which is heated and cooled butter, freeed from the milk protein and most of the water, like the Indian Ghee And Griebenschmalz is also made of pigs fat where I am from, so be carefull to find out where from the recipe etc is before you use schmalz Regards Katharina >> < I thought pig wasn't kosher? Aelina > Schmalz is a German word for melted fat, grease, drippings. lard, etc. It covers any animal fat being used in this manner and in some dialects, butter and the like. Kosher is immaterial. Yiddish is a High German language of Ashkenazi Jewish origin, a German dialect, that is based on religion rather than region. Since kosher is material in Yiddish, schmaltz or schmalz, is more narrowly defined as rendered chicken or goose fat. Bear Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 18:18:02 -0400 From: Sam Wallace To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Subject: [Sca-cooks] Sesame Oil in 16th Century Ottoman Turkey I was doing a bit of reading in the travelogue "The observations of many singularities and memorable things, found in Greece, Asia, Judea, Egypt, Arabia, and other foreign countries." I thought the following would be of interest to the list: http://books.google.com/books?id=tBkOAAAAQAAJ p. 427 "Les Turcs ont l?huile de Sesame en tel vsage, que ceux de France ont l?huile de noix, & en Languedoc l?huile d?oliue: & d?autant qu?on la fait auec grand labeur, c?est commun?ment ouurage d?esclaue. Aussi ne la fait on qu?en hyuer. Ils tre[m]pent la semence de Sesame vingt & quatre heures en eau salle: puis mettent en la place, & la battent auec des maillets de bois dessus vne serpillere iusques ? ce qu?elle soit escorchee, puis la mettent tremper de rechef en de l?eau salee, qui soustient l?escorce ? mont, laquelle ils iettent. Puis ostent le grain du fond, qu?ils seichent au four, & le meulent: & deslors l?huile coule molle comme moustarde: car il y a peu d?excremens. Puis l?ayans fait bouillir lentement, separent le marc. C?est vne huile moult douce & friande, & qui est ? bon march?." The Turks have Sesame oil in such usage, as those in France have walnut oil, and in Languedoc of olive oil: and as much as that one makes it with great labor, it is commonly slave's work. Also it is done only in winter. They soak the seed of Sesame twenty and four hours in salt water: then put in place, and beat it with wooden mallets on top of a floor mat until it is hulled, then put it to soak anew in salt water, which supports the hull to rise, which they throw away. Then remove the grain from the bottom, they bake dry, and grind it: and then oil flows soft as mustard: since there is little excrescence. Then having made it boil slowly, separate the grounds. It is a very sweet and dainty oil, and which is inexpensive. Note, "l'huile de noix" is translated as "walnut oil" in modern French, but might be rendered more simply as nut oil. This passage lets us know what kinds of oil are appropriate for the different regions of France ("Languedoc" is the South West where "oc" was used for "yes"). I wonder if the floor mat in question was a kilim or some other rug, and if it had to be turned over for such use if it was. I also noticed that the sesame oil was boiled, which changes its flavor. Too, this gives us an idea of the texture of French mustard. Other passages make reference to sorbets and sherbets... Guillaume Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 12:46:06 -0700 From: lilinah at earthlink.net To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sesame Oil in 16th Century Ottoman Turkey Guillaume wrote: <<< I was doing a bit of reading in the travelogue "The observations of many singularities and memorable things, found in Greece, Asia, Judea, Egypt, Arabia, and other foreign countries." I thought the following would be of interest to the list: http://books.google.com/books?id=tBkOAAAAQAAJ >>> p. 427 SNIP <<< The Turks have Sesame oil in such usage, as those in France have walnut oil, and in Languedoc of olive oil: and as much as that one makes it with great labor, it is commonly slave?s work. Also it is done only in winter. They soak the seed of Sesame twenty and four hours in salt water: then put in place, and beat it with wooden mallets on top of a floor mat until it is hulled, then put it to soak anew in salt water, which supports the hull to rise, which they throw away. Then remove the grain from the bottom, they bake dry, and grind it: and then oil flows soft as mustard: since there is little excrescence. Then having made it boil slowly, separate the grounds. It is a very sweet and dainty oil, and which is inexpensive. >>> Ooh, thank you! First, a question: Where was the author observing this taking place? Sesame oil appears in SCA period Arabic language cookbooks, but not in the one from mid 15th c. Ottoman Kostantiniyye (aka Constaninople, not Istanbul :) by Mahmud of Shirvan nor in the descriptions of palace food or lists of ingredients for dishes for feasts, circumcision festivals, or served in the imarets (soup kitchens attached to mosques and funded by bequests from sultans, their mothers or wives or daughters, and viziers). I realize that the masses of people do not eat like the Sultan, maybe, instead of the butter (often clarified) so greatly used in the palace kitchens... <<< Note, "l'huile de noix" is translated as "walnut oil" in modern French, but might be rendered more simply as nut oil. This passage lets us know what kinds of oil are appropriate for the different regions of France ("Languedoc" is the South West where "oc" was used for "yes"). >>> I have been thinking about SCA period cooking oils for some months and one thing has lodged in my mind: that is the possibility that various regions had local, and maybe seasonal, oils that didn't get exported. For example, the possibility of grape seed oil in grape growing regions of what are now Spain, France, and Italy. <<< I wonder if the floor mat in question was a kilim or some other rug, and if it had to be turned over for such use if it was. I also noticed that the sesame oil was boiled, which changes its flavor. Too, this gives us an idea of the texture of French mustard. >>> I wonder if the floor mat might have been perhaps of some bast fiber, and not of wool. Just wondering, no evidence. Wool was cheap, but it would soak up oil, while a bast fiber would not, or not as much. On some other hand, given that the writer says flows soft as mustard, i wonder if he is describing tahini. -- Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM] the persona formerly known as Anahita Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 17:21:50 -0400 From: Sam Wallace To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sesame Oil in 16th Century Ottoman Turkey "First, a question: Where was the author observing this taking place?" My best guess is Constantinople as it is referred to in several previous and subsequent passages. I have not had a chance to read through the whole thing, so I am only familiar with a few passages. "I realize that the masses of people do not eat like the Sultan, maybe, instead of the butter (often clarified) so greatly used in the palace kitchens..." Well, M. Belon notes that sesame oil is cheap, but so was butter, most likely, from reading about a street stand in Constantinople that specialized in dairy foods (both cow and sheep). Rich and poor alike enjoyed the place because it was cheap. It had a menu including Melca (Fresh Cheese Curds), Caimac (made of cream and in many different styles. Greek: Aphrogala), and Oxygala. The author notes there was a lot of Recuictte (Misitra / Mizithra -a cheese) used. "On some other hand, given that the writer says flows soft as mustard, i wonder if he is describing tahini." From context, no. This seems pretty clear from the comparison with nut and olive oils. It seems to me that the bit about mustard implies that French mustard was pretty thin and runny. Guillaume Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 23:41:55 -0800 (PST) From: Honour Horne-Jaruk To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] suet Vs. fat Respected friends: Suet and fat are _not culinarily interchangeable. (One oddity of linguistics is that rendered suet becomes tallow, while rendered fat is just fat.) First, suet has much less included moisture and a higher melting point; this makes a huge difference with many recipes (as I found out the hard way when I used suet, not fat, in my first venison sausages). Tallow candles are a classic example of the difference between the two- fat melts at too low a temperature, and can't be made into candles at all. Tallow makes slightly drippy candles that don't smell good if they aren't stored cold, but they hold their shape well enough for practical purposes. Second, suet doesn't have to be heated and filtered for many uses - pie crust comes to mind - while fat tends to have some spectacularly nasty bits you'll want to be very sure you've gotten out. Generally speaking, fat is soft, smooth, and unctuous (a much nicer term than slippery) while suet is hard, brittle, and maintains shape (a much nicer term than sticky). The very best suet is found around the kidneys. Lard is pork suet, and the kidney sections are called "leaf lard" and have always been considered the best quality. Yours in service to both the Societies of which I am a member- (Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk, R.S.F. Alizaundre de Brebeuf, C.O.L. S.C.A.- AKA Una the wisewoman, or That Pict Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 17:39:55 +0000 (GMT) From: galefridus at optimum.net To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] suet Vs. fat A similar distinction exists wrt sheep fat. A lot of Islamic recipes call for tail fat, which is not to be confused with the muscle fat. Sheep store fat in their tails (and around their hocks in some breeds). I have never seen the stuff, but it is my understanding that it is the "more unctuous" of the two kinds of ovine fat. I've had some interesting conversations with sheep breeders in my efforts to locate a source for the stuff -- nearly all sheep bred in North America get their tails docked, so it's pretty hard to find (I haven't succeeded yet!) -- Galefridus Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 00:48:49 -0500 From: "Philip Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] suet Vs. fat On Tue, 2011-02-01 at 23:33 -0600, Stefan li Rous wrote: Alizaundre answered my questions of suet vs. fat with: <<< The very best suet is found around the kidneys. Lard is pork suet, and the kidney sections are called "leaf lard" and have always been considered the best quality. >>> Oh! Part of my question was where would I even find "suet". But I have seen packages of lard in my local grocery store. Does this mean that in most cases if a recipe calls for "suet" that I can use lard? This could make things easier since I'm not even sure where to find a specialty butcher shop here locally. ============ Suet is mostly valued for its unrendered state; it has a tissue structure that rendered lard doesn't. It's a solid fat that can be used for pastry and such that lard can't really duplicate. The rendered beef or mutton fat that is analogous to American or English lard would normally be called "dripping" in English recipes. In France larde or lardons would be more like the fatty part of bacon. The product called for when lard is mentioned is usually evident in the specific usage. If it is to be grated into a pastry or layered with meat (as in Taillevent's aloyaulx recipe for meat rolls with a piece of marrow or fat inside to keep it moist), it's generally unrendered kidney fat. If you're frying in it, it's rendered, and analogous to American lard. Adamantius Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 00:06:07 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] suet Vs. fat Alizaundre answered my questions of suet vs. fat with: <<< The very best suet is found around the kidneys. Lard is pork suet, and the kidney sections are called "leaf lard" and have always been considered the best quality. >>> Oh! Part of my question was where would I even find "suet". But I have seen packages of lard in my local grocery store. Does this mean that in most cases if a recipe calls for "suet" that I can use lard? This could make things easier since I'm not even sure where to find a specialty butcher shop here locally. Stefan ================ Suet is the hard fat around the kindeys in cattle and sheep. Leaf lard is the equivalent in pigs. Fatback is the next lower grade of lard and the lard that is sold as "lard" is usually the soft fat from around the intestines or a mix of lards. There are differences in taste, melting point and smoking point. Suet and leaf lard melt around 120 degrees F and have a smoking point around 400 degrees F. Lard, depending on quality. has a melting point of about 90-100 degrees F and a smoking point of 250-375 degrees F. Precise melting and smoking points will also vary depending on other conditions, but these are a decent estimate. Independent groceries often have a butcher shop and you probably have a few carnecerias for the local Hispanic population. Bear Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 09:56:13 -0600 (CST) From: "Pixel, Goddess and Queen" To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] suet Vs. fat On Wed, 2 Feb 2011, V O wrote: <<< A friend of mine who has done some research into this mentioned in a discussion we had about middle eastern cooking, that this breed of sheep (fat tail) mentioned in this type of cooking is no longer around.? So, would it be the same from a modern breed of sheep?? Does anybody know if that breed 'is" still around, or would it be just something available in the country or local area where they still are?? Mirianna >>> We had this discussion almost exactly a year ago--there are several breeds of fat-tail sheep still around. From Phlip's post on the topic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat-tailed_sheep http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karakul_(sheep) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awassi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackhead_Persian http://www.sheep101.info/sheeptypes.html http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/heritage_breeds/65309/2 And from Urtatim's post: "There are quite a number of fat tailed/fat rumped sheep breeds, which appear to have originated in Central Asia. Some of them have tails that when dressed (!!) weigh 5 lbs. Here are photos of a few displaying their fat tails (or rumps) There are many other fat-tail breeds besides these: the Altay http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/sheep/altay/index.htm the Balkhi http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/sheep/balkhi/index.htm the Baluchi http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/sheep/baluchi/index.htm the Hasht Nagri http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/sheep/hashtnagri/index.htm the Moghani http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/sheep/moghani/index.htm the Ujumqin, a Mongolian http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/sheep/ujumqin/index.htm the Waziri http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/sheep/waziri/index.htm The Han, one of the most extreme http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/sheep/han/index.htm (note that while it is in "China", the region is one of Turkic/Central Asian culture):" Margaret FitzWilliam Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 09:08:32 -0800 (PST) From: Honour Horne-Jaruk To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] suet Vs. fat Respected friends: --- On Wed, 2/2/11, Stefan li Rous wrote: <<< Part of my question was where would I even find "suet". But I have seen packages of lard in my local grocery store. Does this mean that in most cases if a recipe calls for "suet" that I can use lard?? This could make things easier since I'm not even sure where to find a specialty butcher shop here locally. Stefan >>> In some cases, yes, lard would substitute fine; however, most commercial lard isn't lard. It's a mixture of real lard (though certainly not all leaf lard) and pork fat, which has been artificially hydrogenated to make it act like lard in cooking. You may or may not have heard just how bad hydrogenated fat is for people, but a google search will give you an eyeful. However, you may not need to search for all-natural lard. Most grocery butchers can get you suet, since it's very heavily used for feeding birds. Also, I understand you live in Ansteorra? If that's true, I can just about guarantee you live within one hour of a private slaughterhouse. In New England and Michigan, they're often in the yellow pages under that name. I'm told they may also be listed under "meat processing". Slaughterhouses can get you leaf lard or kidney suet very cheaply, since they package for private animal owners who often don't want the fats. I also find them a good place to get many organ meats and some unpopular off cuts - mostly those with heavy concentrations of tendons and ligaments, since so few people know how to cook them. Beef shanks, anyone? Yours in service to both the Societies of which I am a member- (Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk, R.S.F. Alizaundre de Brebeuf, C.O.L. S.C.A.- AKA Una the wisewoman, or That Pict Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 23:57:44 -0500 From: Robin Carroll-Mann To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Intent or Interpretation On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 11:39 PM, Deborah Hammons wrote: <<< The dilemma is: A vegetable dish calls for animal fat frying as the method. If you substitute oil for a vegan version, or butter for those a who don't care...can you still represent it as a period dish? >>> I suppose it depends on the specific recipe and the culture. In the period cuisine I know best -- Spanish -- many vegetable recipes suggest olive oil as a substitution for pork fat. Olive oil is the default for Lenten versions of Spanish recipes, and Lenten recipes from other Christian countries use various kinds of oil. "Although the foods that you can make for meat days are infinite, many of them can be made in Lent, because in the chapters on those foods where I say to blend them with meat broth, those sauces or pottages can be thinned with salt, and oil, and water, but first you have to give it a boil; and in this manner, it is as good as meat broth if it is well-tempered with salt, and if the oil is very fine. And in this manner, many foods which are served for meat days can be made in Lent, and this is nothing but the custom of men to alter foods from one thing to another." Ruperto de Nola, Libro de Guisados (Spain, 1529) Translation copyright Robin Carroll-Mann Now let's look at his recipe for chopped spinach, which calls for the vegetable to be fried in bacon fat. "You must take spinach and clean it, and wash it very well, and give it a brief boil with water and salt; then press it very well between two chopping-blocks, then chop it very small. And then gently fry it in bacon fat; and when it is gently fried, put it in a pot on the fire, and cook it; and cast in the pot: good broth of mutton, and of bacon which is very fatty and good, only the flower of the pot; and if by chance you wish it, in place of the broth, cast upon it milk of goats or sheep, and if not, of almonds; and take the bacon, and cut it into pieces the size of fingers, and cast them in the pot with the spinach; and depending on what the season it is, if you wish, cast in fresh cheese; you may do it likewise, like the abovementioned slices of bacon; and if you put in a great deal, do not put it in until the spinach is entirely cooked, and cast this in a little before dishing it out; and if you wish also to cast in tender raisins which are cooked, you can do it all around the spinach; and if you do not wish to put in these things, neither bacon nor grated cheese of Aragon, cast parsley and mint with it likewise; and the spinach will be better." There are a lot of possible variations on this recipe: broth or milk (animal or almond milk), pieces of bacon or not, cheese or not, etc. There is NO mention of using oil to fry the spinach, but I believe that the first passage I quoted gives me "permission" to do so. I believe I can make a Lenten version of this recipe with olive oil and consider it period. Brighid ni Chiarain Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2011 15:53:47 -0500 From: Johnna Holloway To: yaini0625 at yahoo.com, Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] rapeseed/canola oil On Mar 4, 2011, at 3:21 PM, yaini0625 at yahoo.com wrote: <<< It was my understanding that they are the same plant. The French farmer my Dad spoke too explained that in America the name is different because of the negative connotation of the word. Aelina >>> It's the same plant But the question is -- was it used in cookery or just as lamp oil and animal feeds? What I found last month on February 12 and posted then: As to rapeseed, I remember seeing fields of it when we were at Cambridge. Western Canada grows an immense amount of it, but it didn't take over as an oil crop here in North America until late in the last century. The Canadians through plant breeding developed a more suitable plant that yielded a better oil or so I have read this am. I searched OED and found a few quotes prior to 1600 but more after 1600-- a1661 W. Brereton Trav. (1844) 44 A?mill-stone, upon which the rape-seed being thrown was ground. 1707 J. Mortimer Whole Art Husb. v. 63 If they [sc. lands] are very rich?you may?sow them with Hemp, Oad Cole, Rapeseed or Madder, or some other rich Commodity. and then turned to Oxford reference Online. rapeseed The large expanses of yellow fields in springtime are a modern phenomenon, the result of European Community subsidies, but rape was once grown all down the eastern side of England. It was experimentally grown in the late Middle Ages and again in the second half of the 16th century, but spread more successfully on newly drained fens in the 17th century. It was valued for its industrial oil and as fodder for sheep. The cultivation of rape required more labour than did grain, but it could be fitted into arable rotations at a slack time of the year. The seed was crushed at windmills or water mills . How to cite this entry: "rapeseed" The Oxford Companion to Local and Family History. Ed. David Hey. Oxford University Press, 2009. Oxford Reference Online. Oxford University Press. --- I searched then : Early English Books Online for "rape-seede", "rapeseed", "rape-seed", "rapeseed-cakes", or "rapeseede" within full text, sorted by date ascending Results: 110 matches in 65 records and none connected with a recipe or cookery. There were agricultural references about sowing it or a few medical ones. (rapeseed-cakes are fed to cows.) ---- Then I searched ECCO which is the 18th century database under (Entire Document=(rapeseed)) And (Entire Document=(cookery) and found nil. So I can't find a reference to its being used in cookery this am. Even if we do a general search and substitute rape seed oil for the canola, I don't find it either via Google. ---- Urtatim later wrote: According to what i've read, rapeseed oil was used for cooking only by the very poor. I have found no info to say whether this was their primary cooking oil, or whether is was used only when circumstances were dire and they couldn't afford anything better. -- Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM] the persona formerly known as Anahita but we don't have a specific source for that assumption. Johnnae Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2011 10:24:54 -0600 From: Suey To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Subject: [Sca-cooks] Colza oil Colza, conola or rapeseed oil was not processed until the 19th C and, therefore, not an item for medieval feasts. Colza or rapeseeds are found in rape, conola or colza cabbage which Villena recommended as an ingredient in a medicinal broth. Suey Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 21:58:58 +0100 From: "Susanne Mayer" To: Subject: [Sca-cooks] rapeseed/canola oil Just quick checked the Aichholzer book. The Innsbrucker codex does mention oil trice but only once a specific oil : linseed /flax seed oil (I161). one of the three does mention Schmalz OR oil (I96) The Dorotheer Codex does mention oil 10 times , two are for Hemp so peobably hemp oil was also used, one for poppyseed cheese (like almondmilk cheese) so poppyseed oil is also a possibility. D77, D129, D146 again mention Schmalz or Oil for cooking (whatever you have 129). The Mondseer codex mentions oil 4 times, one M117 is a show recipe for a lamp oil. M14 again mention Schmalz or Oil for cooking M92 adds butter also as a possible substitute M93 and 94 refers to M 92, but 94 does no longer suggest oil just Butter or Schmalz. Katharina Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 04:03:53 -0600 From: Sayyeda al-Kaslaania To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] olive oil too expensive to be used as a cooking oil? Here's the original quote, all typos mine: p 154 "In the modern world, the cuisine of the Mediterranean and the Middle East is closely associated with olive oil. For the medieval Muslims of Baghdad, olive oil was a thing generally too costly for everyday use as a cooking oil. It was instead most often reserved as a condiment to be sprinkled on dishes, either as a final step in cooking, or at the table. By comparison, we find the /Manuscrito anonimo/, that the Muslim chefs of al-Andalus and the Maghreb preferred olive oil above all other fats, to the point that their Christian neighbors to the north in more temperate parts of Spain adopted it, even though they had no olive trees of their own." "Much more common for cooking in Baghdad than olive oil, even in the kitchens of the caliph, would have been alya, the fat rendered out of the tail of a plump sheep. Many, if not most of the recipes in al-Baghdadi's /Kitab al-tabikb/ begin with instructions to render out tail fat in a hot pan, fat which is then used to brown meat for stewing, or as the medium for frying kubabs. In other, later Arabic cookery books, much space us give over to methods of clarifying, enriching, coloring and perfuming this staple, all things which would have made this humble fat suitable for even the most refined dishes. Sesame oil was also widely employed, but although used by Muslims, and cited by al-Baghdadi as suitable for deep frying, it was much more closely associated with Jews, to the point that many claimed you could tell a Jewish household from the street simply by the way it smelled of burning sesame oil. Of lesser importance as a cooking fat was /samn/, clarified butter, which appears in a number of contexts, especially as a base ingredient for pastries and breads, and aged as a condiment, valued for its rancidity. " Miller, H.D., "The Pleasures of Consumption: The Birth of Medieval Islamic Cuisine." in _Food: the History of Taste_. Edited by Paul H. Freedman. Series: California Studies in Food and Culture. U of California Press, 2007.Pp. 135-162. Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 10:22:16 +0000 (GMT) From: Volker Bach To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] olive oil too expensive to be used as a cooking oil? I suspect the issue is one of geography. Olives grow in profusion all around the Mediterranean, but are not that common e.g. in Persia or Mesopotamia."Modern Iranian cuisine" still depends much less on it than Syrian or Maghrebi. Given how much of our source material comes from Baghdad, that may be it. Giano ________________________________ Von: Stefan li Rous An: SCA-Cooks maillist SCA-Cooks Gesendet: 10:47 Montag, 30.Januar 2012 Betreff: [Sca-cooks] olive oil too expensive to be used as a cooking oil? Sayyeda al-Kaslaania said: <<< Miller, H.D., "The Pleasures of Consumption: The Birth of Medieval Islamic Cuisine." in _Food: the History of Taste_. Edited by Paul H. Freedman. Series: California Studies in Food and Culture. U of California Press, 2007.Pp. 135-162. According to Miller, olive oil would be served on the table as a prized fat, too expensive for the entire cooking process during the Middle Ages. >>> Really? I may be mis-remembering and perhaps this is specific to Islamic cultures, but from earlier discussions here and, I think, from my reading, I seem to remember that olive oil was fairly common around the Mediterranean and was the most common cooking oil. I seem to remember it being common enough that it caused some religious friction between the northern and southern Christian countries, because olive oil could be used during Lent, while butter, the common cooking oil in the north, could not be used then. What do the Middle Eastern/Islamic scholars here think? What have your studies said about how common olive oil for cooking was? We discussed before that fat and cooking oils were more expensive then than now, but they did come up with enough to do deep-frying. Stefan Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 04:43:41 -0600 From: Sayyeda al-Kaslaania To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] olive oil too expensive to be used as a cooking oil? Here is what S.D. Goitein says, all typos mine: p 120 "Next to wheat, the nutrition of the common people depended mainly on oil, obtained either from plants or from the olive tree. As oil, together with wax, was also the almost exclusive material for artificial lighting, its importance can be easily gauged. Because of the enormous extent of flax-growing, linseed oil was widely used, in particular for lighting. It was exported from Egypt to olive-growing Syria and to far-away Aden in South Arabia (n.28). Edible oil was won to a large extent from the sesame plant, which was grown in the Nile Delta, in particular for its northern parts, and in Palestine. "Makers of sesame oil" as a name occupation occurs frequently in the Geniza records, while "sesamist," dealer in the crop, in rare (n.290. The dyeing plant safflower (the English word is derived from Arabid 'asfur, which designates its flowers) or rather its seed (called qurtum, ef. the scientific name carthamus) also provides an oil, used mainly for medicinal purposes. In the Geniza, we find the see sent from a village to the capital, while the red dye made from the flowers, which was used widely in cosmetics, was a common article in the international trade of coloring stuffs (n.30)" "The noble olive tree, in the Bible (Judges 9:8) regarded as the king of all trees, is indigenous to the Mediterranean area, but almost entirely absent from Egypt. Olive oil, however, was a vital ingredient in the daily food of the population and also provided the choicest lighting. No wonder, then, that its import to Egypt was one of the largest branches of the Mediterranean trade. Still, it was partly processed also in the country. In a document made out in Tunisia in 1074, a woman claimed "[olive] oil makers' equipment" in Old Cairo which belonged to her, and in 1203, a man called baddi, operator or proprietor of an oil press, appears as a party to a contract in the same town. (n.31). Zayyat, maker or seller of olive oil, is one of the most common names or occupations mentioned in our papers, and repeated reference has been made here to a bazaar named after that profession. In an olive-growing country like Spain, it was of course natural that the lending of an object like a stone used in the oil press should form the object of a contract (Lucena, before 1021) (n.32). " S.D. Goitein. _A Mediterranean Society, Vol I_. Berkley: U. of Calif. Press, 1967. These statements don't disagree with Miller (whom I read as saying olive oil was used, just not as the primary cooking fat), but I don't think it says enough to agree either. The one paragraph almost seems to conflict with the next, but that might be 4am talking. Sayyeda al-Kaslaania Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 08:44:52 -0700 From: "Daniel Myers" To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] olive oil too expensive to be used as a cooking oil? -------- Original Message -------- From: Sayyeda al-Kaslaania Date: Mon, January 30, 2012 5:43 am [... snip ...] These statements don't disagree with Miller (whom I read as saying olive oil was used, just not as the primary cooking fat), but I don't think it says enough to agree either. The one paragraph almost seems to conflict with the next, but that might be 4am talking. ==================== Frankly, I think Miller is whacked on this, and for one simple reason: There is plenty of evidence for olive oil being used as a primary cooking fat in countries in medieval Europe where olives were *not* grown (e.g. Germany, England, Denmark, France). They had to be importing all that olive oil, and from a trade viewpoint it makes little sense to export the oil from where it is expensive to sell it where it is cheap. - Doc Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 15:07:24 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] olive oil too expensive to be used as a cooking oil? -------- Original Message -------- From: Sayyeda al-Kaslaania Date: Mon, January 30, 2012 5:43 am [... snip ...] These statements don't disagree with Miller (whom I read as saying olive oil was used, just not as the primary cooking fat), but I don't think it says enough to agree either. The one paragraph almost seems to conflict with the next, but that might be 4am talking. <<< Frankly, I think Miller is whacked on this, and for one simple reason: There is plenty of evidence for olive oil being used as a primary cooking fat in countries in medieval Europe where olives were *not* grown (e.g. Germany, England, Denmark, France). They had to be importing all that olive oil, and from a trade viewpoint it makes little sense to export the oil from where it is expensive to sell it where it is cheap. - Doc >>> =================== You aren't factoring in the cost of transportation. Olive oil is a large bulk commodity which was most easily transported by water. Most of Europe was accessible by water. Hauling it overland to Baghdad and beyond would have been more expensive than transporting it to Northern Europe. From what I see in this discussion, Miller is saying that olive oil was so expensive in Baghdad, that other oils more readily available and less costly were used. While Goitein and Miller make the point that locally available oils were the most commonly used in given regions. Also, the use of olive oil in Northern Europe was driven by Christian religious doctrine that was not present in Islamic religious doctrine, therefore there was not the need to import olive oil to olive oil poor Islamic states as there was to Christian Northern Europe. I'm sure the Northern Europeans would have been happy to use lard and butter with olive oil as a rare treat, just as the people of al-Islam used fat tail sheep and local vegetable oils with olive oil a rare treat in some locales. Miller may be in error, but I don't think he is whacked. Bear Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 16:46:55 +0000 (GMT) From: galefridus at optimum.net To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] olive oil too expensive to be used as a cooking oil? Based on my reading of numerous medieval Islamic cookbooks, it seems unlikely that olive oil was limited to use as a condiment. I have found recipes from Baghdad to al-Andalus that call for it to be used as cooking oil. It was by no means the only oil or fat in use -- some have already mention sheep tail fat, and I've seen recipes calling for sesame oil. Possible Miller was referring to what we now call extra virgin olive oil, which because of its more intense flavor and greater cost may have been used in a more limited fashion. But it is difficult to apply our modern olive oil standards to the medieval world, so I don't know whether they made a distinction between what we now call extra virgin and lower grades of oil. -- Galefridus Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 19:12:31 -0800 (GMT-08:00) From: lilinah at earthlink.net To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] olive oil too expensive to be used as a cooking oil? David/Cariadoc wrote: <<< In the Islamic cookbooks, both sesame oil and tail are mentioned explicitly, as is ghee. Off hand I don't remember olive oil being specified, but I haven't looked for it. But "oil" unspecified is common, which makes me suspect that it means olive oil. >>> Welll, not in ALL Islamic cookbooks. In Arabic language cookbooks i have seen references to "fine oil", which may be fresh olive oil, but is not 100% clear. Otherwise olive oil is rarely, if ever, mentioned. As Cariadoc points out, what are usually specified are sesame oil, sheep tail fat, and to a lesser extent butter - probably clarified, as Cariadoc notes. In other Islamic cookbooks in Ottoman Turkish and Persian, butter - probably clarified - and sheep tail fat are specified. In fact, within SCA-period olive oil entered the Ottoman palaces only as *lamp oil*, so expense was clearly not the issue. Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 18:25:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel And elizabeth phelps To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Rape Seed Oil, Canola Oil, and the Early Norse Domestic "oils" available to the Norse would be oils rendered from sea creatures; whale, porpoise, seal and walrus. I really doubt that they were used for ccoking, and butterfat from cows, sheep, goats and perhaps reindeer. Lard but that has already been mentioned. Best I can come up with. Daniel ----- Original Message ----- Recently I took part in a weekend demonstration of Viking-era Norse living and one of the foods that we attempted was little handpies, some heated on a dry 'frying pan' metal surface while others were fried in oil in a pot. For the deep frying, we used rape seed oil... which had me laughing at myself after spending nearly $17 on the can of it only to learn once I returned from the store that it was basically canola oil. Since the demo, I've wondered what sort of cooking oil would actually be available to the Viking-era Norse. We know that a small amount of luxury olive oil was imported but aside from lard - what would have been most commonly used? I doubt it was what we used last weekend. Hrothny Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 18:34:27 -0400 From: "Terri Morgan" To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Rape Seed Oil, Canola Oil, and the Early Norse <<< I've wondered what sort of cooking oil would actually be available to the Viking-era Norse. We know that a small amount of luxury olive oil was imported but aside from lard - what would have been most commonly used? >>> To expand (answering myself), Anne Hagen in her book on Anglo-Saxon Foods & Drink mentions that the poor may have eaten fish fried in rape oil, and in a section on foods for the infirm she mentions walnut oil which I am assuming would have been nearly as expensive as olive oil. Earlier, there is a glancing mention of flaxseed oil, but for the most part the sections on food preparation simply say 'cooked/fried in oil' without specifying the source. Hrothny Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 18:58:06 -0400 From: "Terri Morgan" To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Rape Seed Oil, Canola Oil, and the Early Norse << Define Viking-era Norse. >> Norse/Danish cultures found in Scandinavia, the British Islands, Greenland, and Iceland. (We are for the most part focussing on those settling in the British Islands) during the 700s-approx 1066. << I would be interested in the canola oil/rape seed oil extrapolation. >> Yes. My quick reading online about rape seed says that the oil contained a dangerous amount of acid up until the 1800s, so I had doubt that it was commonly used pre-1000 with any surety of safety. << Do we know the technology used to process the amount of seeds needed for this type of oil production existed? >> It appears that a certain amount of extraction was possible by crushing source and collecting the runoff. This made me curious about the possible use of flax seeds, as the seeds could be harvested before the flax was retted to make fibre for cloth. << If pork production was high I would think Lard would be one of the most important oil products (easy to store and easy to produce). >> But also quick to go rancid, wouldn't it be? (I'm hazy on that.) Hrothny Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 16:16:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Honour Horne-Jaruk To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Rape Seed Oil, Canola Oil, and the Early Norse Respected friend: --- On Thu, 4/25/13, Terri Morgan wrote: << It appears that a certain amount of extraction was possible by crushing source and collecting the runoff. This made me curious about the possible use of flax seeds, as the seeds could be harvested before the flax was retted to make fibre for cloth. Hrothny >> Unfortunately, flak plants left in the field until the seed ripens produce much lower quality fiber. The best comes from plants pulled while in flower. Until recently, only enough plants were set to seed to produce enough seeds for next year's crop. Yours in service to both the Societies of which I am a member- (Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk, R.S.F. Alizaundre de Brebeuf, C.O.L. S.C.A.- AKA Una the wisewoman, or That Pict Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 19:24:13 -0400 From: "Chef Christy" To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Rape Seed Oil, Canola Oil, and the Early Norse << But also quick to go rancid, wouldn't it be? (I'm hazy on that.) Hrothny >> Not so much. Lard is a saturated fat, so does not oxidize so quickly. Christianna Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 16:26:27 -0700 From: David Walddon To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Rape Seed Oil, Canola Oil, and the Early Norse Well that seems to answer the Flax seed oil question. It does however have a high enough smoke point for deep frying. Hemp is right on the edge at 320 degrees F. Check out this site for smoke points. http://www.thenibble.com/reviews/main/oils/smoke-point2.asp Eduardo Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 16:27:37 -0700 From: David Walddon To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Rape Seed Oil, Canola Oil, and the Early Norse < If pork production was high I would think Lard would be one of the most important oil products (easy to store and easy to produce). > << But also quick to go rancid, wouldn't it be? (I'm hazy on that.) >> It goes rancid in hot temperatures and it is pretty stable with small amounts of salt. Eduardo Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 08:11:57 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Rape Seed Oil, Canola Oil, and the Early Norse I took a look at Sabine Karg's Medieval Food Traditions in Northern Europe which lists the plants from the medieval and early modern periods. (I know later than Viking, but it's the same geography and it does mention the earlier period.) I did not find rapeseed mentioned. Probably most useful is the chapter on the Hanseatic towns Northern Poland which contains a section on oil and fibre plants. pp.52. Flax and hemp are listed as the most important for oils. It does mention olives and olive oils being imported. We've discussed the marketing of rapeseed in the past and the change to the more acceptable name of canola oil for a better variety, but read here http://www.snopes.com/medical/toxins/canola.asp Johnnae Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 18:46:00 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Not Peanut oil I would say either sheep fat (Karakorum) or lard (Khanbeliq). Other possible, but less likely fats include horse, camel or beef, as all of these animals were used for transportation and food among the Mongols. Peanut oil is definitely of New world origin. Bear <<< A recipe that Mistress Kiri gave to me (meat rolls for Kublai Khan) calls for frying them in peanut oil. I do not think that peanuts existed in the Mongolian or Chinese worlds, so am assuming that the oil was chosen for redaction purposes to reflect a given flavor that is difficult to find in the US. Maybe. Does anyone have an idea of what sort of 14th century(ish) frying oils would have been used? Animal fat? Something vegetable-based? (Sesame oil?) Hrothny >>> Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 13:58:47 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Not Peanut oil The Mongol preference was lamb fat, probably due to availability. However, Kublai Khan was integrally involved with China, establishing his later capitol at Khanbeliq (Beijing). Shurtleff in History of Fermented Black Soybeans (165 B.C. to 2011), references sources that identify hemp oil as the lowest form of cooking oil, fit primarily for lamps and a recipe (probably modern) for black soybean sauce which uses sesame oil. The T'ien-kung k'ia-wu (1637) provides that oils from soy, sesame, rape and other vegetables were available. Davidson referencing other experts suggests that sesame was introduced into China around 5th Century CE by which time sesame oil production was well known in Egypt, India and the Middle East. So, sesame oil was most likely in use in Kublai's China. Bear Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 18:07:39 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] sheep fat The only fat tail sheep found in the U.S. are Karakul sheep. I gather that the taste of the tail fat is milder than the mutton fat of European breeds. I haven't gone looking for it, but it might be found in a Middle eastern grocery under the Arabic, "allyah" or the Farsi, "rowghan." Bear <<< al-Warraq calls for 'tail fat' in many recipes (and the glossary in Nasrallah's translation confirms this as being from a sheep, iirc), but try as I might, I couldn't find any such in Ireland. I'd be interested to know what might be a suitable substitute in terms of both smoke point and taste. That said, I'll have some more time over the summer, and might consider chasing down a butcher or two and seeing what they can provide if I give them enough warning. Aodh >>> Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 16:23:35 -0700 From: David Friedman To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] sheep fat "Tail" is a common ingredient in period Islamic cooking, not just al-Warraq. It's the fat from the tail of the fat tailed sheep. The sheep still exist, but I have so far been unsuccessful in locating a source for the fat, so just use rendered fat trimmed from lamb. Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 21:27:38 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] sheep fat Here's a fun little post on tail fat by Charles Perry: http://www.anissas.com/those-fat-tails/ Bear Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 21:44:16 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] sheep fat Look for a halal butcher in your area. If anyone knows where to get tail fat, they will. Bear <<< That said, I'll have some more time over the summer, and might consider chasing down a butcher or two and seeing what they can provide if I give them enough warning. Aodh >>> Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 15:14:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Galefridus Peregrinus To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] sheep fat I've had numerous conversations with several halal butchers -- I have at least a dozen of them with 30 minutes of my home. They are aware of tail fat, and one commented on how common it was when he was back home, but he hasn't seen any since moving to the US many years ago. I have also heard anecdotally that it is used in Middle Eastern bakeries, but I haven't verified this story. I'll be visiting the Little Syria neighborhood near me sometime soon -- I'll make inquiries and report my findings. -- Galefridus Edited by Mark S. Harris cooking-oil-msg Page 59 of 59