cooking-oils-msg - 2/22/08 Period cooking and food oils. Rendering fat into oil. NOTE: See also the files: butter-msg, nuts-msg, broths-msg, salads-msg, frittours-msg, fried-foods-msg, aspic-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com> Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 18:15:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: SC - walnut oil This is Elizabeth, following the list a couple weeks late, posting from David's account. At 3:19 PM -0400 5/8/97, Karen Farris wrote: > Would any of you illustrious chefs inform a poor French peasant girl > of the periodicity of walnut oil? What about other nut oils or > vegetable oils? Is there script of any other than animal lards and > olive oil? According to a 13th century Book of Trades (quoted in _Daily Living in the 12th Century_), the oil merchant sold olive oil, almond oil, walnut oil, linseed oil, and poppy oil. Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:09:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Uduido at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Flavoured oils query << would like to learn more about NW Europe, specifically the western part of the British Isles (Ireland, Wales and Cornwall) in regards of cooking. I love oil which has been suffused with herbs. Have attempted to make my own (I think I was too impatient) and use commercially produced ones a lot. Are they period? >> Well, not to disappoint you but it appears as if the lubricants of choice based on extant recipes were as follows: British Isles, Northern France- butter; Germany and Teutonic countries- lard; Italy, South France, Spain, Portugal and the mid-east- olive oil. Of course, since I'm basing this on memory, I could be wrong. Lord Ras Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 16:19:19 -0500 From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter) Subject: Re: SC - Flavoured oils query Hi, Katerine here. Lord Ras writes: >Well, not to disappoint you but it appears as if the lubricants of choice >based on extant recipes were as follows: British Isles, Northern France- >butter; Germany and Teutonic countries- lard; Italy, South France, Spain, >Portugal and the mid-east- olive oil. Of course, since I'm basing this on >memory, I could be wrong. Actually, based on the recipes I've seen in the English corpus, I'd say that the primary oil-like substances in use in England were white grease and lard. You also see suet, but less frequently. Next in order is probably oil, usually olive. One sees butter fairly frequently in the 13th C (about 15% of recipes), but less often than oil or grease, and in the 14th and 15th centuries relatively rarely (about 3%). - -- Katerine/Terry Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 11:29:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Stephen Bloch <sbloch at adl15.adelphi.edu> Subject: Re: SC - Flavoured oils query Ras wrote: > Well, not to disappoint you but it appears as if the lubricants of choice > based on extant recipes were as follows: British Isles, Northern France- > butter; Germany and Teutonic countries- lard; Italy, South France, Spain, > Portugal and the mid-east- olive oil. Katerine made some corrections to the "British Isles - butter" part. I shall point out that in the cooking of the Arabic-speaking world (which, being a literate culture, has left us more cookbooks from longer ago than has Christian Europe), the primary lubricant seems to be rendered from the tail of the fat-tailed sheep (see the notes on ingredients in the _Miscellany_). Butter was also known, and the _Manuscrito Anonimo_ points out that "some people love it, and add it to bread, while others cannot stand even to smell it." _Manuscrito anonimo_ goes on to say: Butter is not employed in kitchen dishes because it is only used in the various kinds of rafis [see below] and in some cakes, and in similar foods of [made by?] women. It is needed for its oil, over which it quickly forms a dry crust, and for spicy or vinegary things so that it may cut their sharpness and make them soft and smooth, and do them great benefit. Most of the recipes calling for butter in this cookbook are for a class of dishes called _rafis_, which appear to all be sweetened, yeast-raised breadlike or cakelike dishes, cooked in a pan (not baked in an oven). Butter is also used occasionally for greasing meats to be oven-roasted, and for making puff-pastry dough, e.g. for "sambusak", which I think is a cognate for "samosa". Oil (I've been assuming it means olive oil, without much evidence) also appears frequently in the _Manuscrito anonimo_, often interchangeably with butter or animal grease. mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 22:18:43 +0000 From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net> Subject: Re: SC - Flavoured oils query And it came to pass on 6 Sep 97, that Stephen Bloch wrote: > Ras wrote: > > Well, not to disappoint you but it appears as if the lubricants of choice > > based on extant recipes were as follows: British Isles, Northern France- > > butter; Germany and Teutonic countries- lard; Italy, South France, Spain, > > Portugal and the mid-east- olive oil. > > Katerine made some corrections to the "British Isles - butter" part. > I shall point out that in the cooking of the Arabic-speaking world > (which, being a literate culture, has left us more cookbooks from > longer ago than has Christian Europe), the primary lubricant seems > to be rendered from the tail of the fat-tailed sheep Not a correction, but an addition: in Spain, though olive oil was much-used, pork fat appears to have been very popular also. The "Libro de Guisados" mentions lard in a number of recipes, but bacon fat is even more common. "Sofreirlas con buen tocino gordo" -- "Gently fry them in good fatty bacon". Brighid ni Chiarain of Tethba Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 22:43:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Uduido at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Flavoured oils query I have been using my 'free' time' to study this flavored oil question. The only reference I came across was a recipe for 'flavored' oil in Vehling's Apicius which is decidedly not English and decidedly not the appropriate period. The reference uses 'nard', rosemary, etc. as seasonings. Lord Ras Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 21:45:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Stephen Bloch <sbloch at adl15.adelphi.edu> Subject: Re: SC - Flavoured oils query Ras wrote: > I have been using my 'free' time' to study this flavored oil question. The > only reference I came across was a recipe for 'flavored' oil in Vehling's > Apicius which is decidedly not English and decidedly not the appropriate > period. The reference uses 'nard', rosemary, etc. as seasonings. "nard" or "nardo" is probably spikenard. mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib Date: Mon, 12 Jan 98 22:57:03 PST From: "Alderton, Philippa" <phlip at morganco.net> Subject: Re: SC - fat rendering? : Philippa gave a lamb/goat recipe: : >1 4 lb leg of lamb, deboned and cut into cubes : >lamb fat, rendered, with olive oil : : What does this second line mean? Or more precisely, : how should you do this? : : This is heating the lamb fat to turn it into oil, right? : What is the olive oil for? Does this keep the fat from : burning while it melts into oil? Should you strain the : resulting oil? How much olive oil should you use? : : Stefan li Rous The rendering you have right, you're merely removing the oil from the fat. The olive oil was to stretch the lamb fat since I didn't really have enough lamb fat for the browning I was doing. Olive oil is a flavored oil, not particularly good for high temperature cooking, though certainly not bad. Peanut oil can be taken to a very high temperature without smoking, and this is one case where the cheaper oils can be of benefit, because the cheap peanut oil has LESS flavor than the expensive ones I've tried, giving as close to a neutral flavor as possible. Since peanuts are OOP, you don't want that flavor, but you may want the heating characteristics. As far as straining, just remove (and enjoy- cooks privilege) the cracklins, or in other words, the connective tissue left behind from the rendering. Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 08:59:48 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - Shopping savvy for Feasts-revisited I prefer butter to margarine, but will use margarine where it is applicable. Both are in the refrigerator. I buy my olive oil in 3 liter cans and my extra virgin olive oil in smaller quantity. Regular olive oil is for cooking, extra virgin is for sauces and dressings. I also have peanut oil, corn oil, sesame oil, vegetable oil, vegetable shortening, and canola oil (canola oil is a scribal error, I was given the bottle). At present, I am out of lard, walmut oil and almond oil. Yes, I use all of these for different applications in cooking and baking. I may even use the canola for tempering my cast iron, where the flavor shouldn't matter. Bear Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 22:53:32 -0800 From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com> Subject: SC - Oils (was: Shopping savvy for Feasts) At 8:59 AM -0600 11/19/98, Decker, Terry D. wrote: >I buy my olive oil in 3 liter cans and my >extra virgin olive oil in smaller quantity. Regular olive oil is for >cooking, extra virgin is for sauces and dressings. I also have peanut oil, >corn oil, sesame oil, vegetable oil, vegetable shortening, and canola oil >(canola oil is a scribal error, I was given the bottle). At present, I am >out of lard, wlamut oil and almond oil. Yes, I use all of these for >different applications in cooking and baking. I may even use the canola for >tempering my cast iron, where the flavor shouldn't matter. > >Bear Isn't canola oil (alias rape seed oil) Old World? Although I can't think of any specific references to it, as I can for almond, walnut, sesame, and olive oil. Peanut, corn, and soybean oils would be out of period, of course. Elizabeth/Betty Cook Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 14:41:58 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - Oils (was: Shopping savvy for Feasts) > Isn't canola oil (alias rape seed oil) Old World? Although I can't think > of any specific references to it, as I can for almond, walnut, sesame, and > olive oil. Peanut, corn, and soybean oils would be out of period, of > course. > > Elizabeth/Betty Cook The quick ref says canola oil is extracted from Brassica napus, a European member of the mustard family, commonly referred to as rape or oil rape. Also according to the quick ref, rape oil is used a lubricant and in manufacturing processes. Whether it's medieval or not, I couldn't say, but the taste is such I don't think any self respecting medieval cook would let it get anywhere near the kitchen. I think its use in cooking is recent, due to its "healthy" properties. Bear Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 01:10:46 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - another question Stacie wrote: > instead of shortening what would one use? Lard...? butter? > if you substituted shortening for butter how would it turn out? > > Stacie Ounce for ounce, butter has less shortening power than lard or vegetable shortening because it is an emulsion containing, what (it's late, I'm tired, and I don't have the reference in front of me) roughly 15% water. Almost all baked goods require at least _some_ water. Things like shortbread usually can get enough from the butter, but if you substituted another fat you might have to add some water. When substituting whole butter for another fat, you should probably add commensurately less water. It's probably not a big deal in most cases, but when multiplying recipes for bulk use, it could be an issue. Adamantius stgardr, East Subject: RE: ANST - Lard Date: Mon, 20 Sep 99 14:35:17 MST From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> To: "'ansteorra at ansteorra.org'" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG> > What is a good substitute for Lard in today's cooking world and for penny > royal? > > F. Havas > ches at io.com Lard is a pretty good substitute for lard. It is available in stick form and by the bucket. About the same price as solid vegetable shortening. If there are health or religious issues. Crisco or some other solid 100% vegetable shortening makes about the best substitute. If you are using this in pastry or a similar dish, I recommend sticking to the solids, as solid and liquid fats have different characteristics when blended into a recipe. If you are planning to fry in it, vegetable oil, olive oil, corn oil, etc. can be substituted, although they do not handle as high a heat as the solid shortenings, which may be an issue if you are trying to flash cook a dough. <snip of pennyroyal substitute. See herbs-msg> Bear Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 20:46:15 -0700 From: lilinah at grin.net Subject: Re: SC - Middle Eastern Sesame oil Artemis of St. Malachy wrote: >I'm currently preparing for a feast at the end of October. Several of >our dishes are Islamic in origin and require sesame oil. I've been told >that this is not the same as the sesame oil used in many asian dishes, >and that middle eastern sesame oil is made from untoasted sesame seeds >and does not have the strong flavour that asian sesame oil has. The main >problem is I can't find the stuff anywhere. We have several asian food >stores in our area, but not middle eastern. I will be require a fair >amount of the oil (about 1.5 L) and am wondering if there is a good >substitute for it. I don't know if this sesame oil has a particular >cooking characteristic. I've found cold-pressed sesame oil in health >stores. It was a much lighter colour to the asian sesame oil and didn't >seem to have as strong a taste to it, but the bottle did not say whether >the sesame seeds were toasted or untoasted. If it is light in color, it is untoasted and shouldn't have a real strong taste. This light colored oil is what you want. Besides cold-pressed, I think there are some untoasted expeller pressed varieties available too, often at the health food store. Anahita Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 23:34:10 EST From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Fat tailed sheep phlip at morganco.net writes: << Anybody have any references, whether to recipes, commentary, or other references? Phlip >> al-Baghdadi (1223 CE) contains many recipes using the tail of these sheep. It was used much as we use cooking oil or lard in almost every recipe that was meat based. Ras Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 00:40:38 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Fat tailed sheep "Alderton, Philippa" wrote: > I remember a fe months ago, we had a thread in fat tailed sheep, and a few > questions have come up on another List I'm on. Anybody have any references, > whether to recipes, commentary, or other references? From Reay Tannahill's "Food in History": "The pastoral peasant tradition of the Near East contributed the oil in which almost every Baghdad dish was put to cook -- alya, the fat rendered from sheep's tails. Time after time al-Baghdadi began his instructions with the words, 'Cut meat into middling pieces; dissolve tail and throw away the sediment. Put the meat into this oil and let it fry lightly...' The popularity of tail fat may have had something to do with the existence of the local fat-tailed sheep, though whether as cause or effect remains a matter for debate." As both Ras and Tannahill state, al-Baghdadi is full of references to cooking in rendered tail fat. It may not be a 100% valid assumption that what they're talking about is the fat-tailed sheep we know, but it seems pretty reasonable. Even if alya is presumed to be a modern term, do we know if anything like it appears in al-Baghdadi in its original text? Adamantius Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 11:52:15 -0000 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" <nannar at isholf.is> Subject: Re: SC - Fat tailed sheep Phlip wrote: >Anybody have any references, >whether to recipes, commentary, or other references? There is a very interesting three-page article, "The Fate of the Tail" by Charles Perry in "Disappearing Foods", the 1994 Oxford Symposium papers. Basically, he says that in the 9th century Kit b al-Tabib only half a dozen recipes call for tail fat, but says "the reason may simply be that tail fat was out of favor at the court of the Caliphs". Most later Arab cookbooks call for tail fat (al-Baghdadi is "saturated with tail fat", Perry says). But he does point out that in later versions of al-Baghdadi, there are several added recipes and they do not usually call for tail fat so its use may have declined. "The most popular cookbook of the Arab Middle Ages, to judge from the number of manuscripts that have survived, was Kit b al-Wusla al-Habib. Tail fat has a prominent place in the book. Recipes for rendering it constitute the fourth chapter. Alya is expicitly called for in 34 recipes, and the "fat" referred to in 18 more recipes was almost certainly from the tail, judging on the basis of similarities in wording or the very quantity of fat called for. The fat has two principal uses. Boiled meat is typically pounded and then fried in tail fat before adding to a stew, and in starchy dishes such as pilaf and lentils, tail fat is for flavoring, commonly poured in shortly before the dish is done often together with as honey, vinegar, sugar syrup or spices (even, in some cases, other fats such as sesame oil, olive oil and/or clarified butter)." There is also a very interesting one-page article on fat-tailed sheep in The Oxford Companion to Food. Nanna Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 02:08:13 +0100 From: Thomas Gloning <Thomas.Gloning at germanistik.uni-giessen.de> Subject: SC - Fat tailed sheep << I remember a few months ago, we had a thread in fat tailed sheep, and a few questions have come up on another List I'm on. Anybody have any references, whether to recipes, commentary, or other references? >> Here are some gleanings: - -- Grewe, R.: Hispano-Arabic cuisine in the twelfth century. In: Lambert, C. (Dir.): Du manuscrit ! la table. Montral/ Paris 1992, 141-148. One of the most characteristic features of this cuisine is that olive oil is the basic, and almost the only, cooking fat. (...) the fat of the fat-tailed sheep, so common in the Near East, does not seem to have taken root in Spain (p. 143). - -- Heine, P.: Kulinarische Studien. Untersuchungen zur Kochkunst im arabisch-islamischen Mittelalter. Mit Rezepten. Wiesbaden 1988. [Culinary studies. Inquiries into the art of cookery of the Arabic-Islamic Middle Ages. With recipes.] He mentions alya, the fat of the fat-tailed sheep, on several pages (see his "Index der arabischen Termini" s.v. alya) and gives references to al-Baghdadi, Wusla, and al-Warraq. - -- Rodinson, M.: Recherches sur les documents arabes relatifs ! la cuisine. In: Revue des tudes islamiques 17 (1949) 95-165. [Studies into the arabic sources pertaining to cooking.] Says among other things, that the use of alya was an element of the cuisine paysanne that entered into or was part of the cuisine of the prince in the 12th/13th century. -- If I am not mistaken, there is still no edition/translation of the Wusla, so his description of this cookbook is still important. -- You find the pages on alya with his Index arabe, turc et persan (p. 159); there is also a literary source mentioned, where the tail is the ambassador in a quarrel between King Sheep (or Mutton) and King Honey. The principal sources mentioned are: Al-Baghdadi: Chelebi, D. (ed.): Kitab al-Tabikh. Mosul (Umm al-rabi'ain Press) 1934. [Engl. 9bs.: Arberry, in: Islamic Culture, 13, 1939.] Arberry, A.J.: A Baghdad cookery book. In: Islamic Culture 13 (1939) 21-47; 184-214. The Wusla: see the description in Rodinson al-Warraq: hrnberg, K./ Mroueh, S. (eds.): Ibn Sayyar al-Warraq, Kitab al-Tabikh. Helsinki 1987 (Studia Orientalia 60). [Arabic text; no translation; short English introduction.] Thomas Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 02:57:56 EST From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Fat tailed sheep Susan.P.Laing at mainroads.qld.gov.au writes: << Think I'll be sticking to the Lard or oil substitutes (since the Australian sheep industry tends to "dock" the tail >> Lamb fat would be a far better substitute than either lard or oil. Neither lard nor oil possess the requisite flavor that tail fat does. Also pork is not eaten by followers of al-Islam making lard a completely unsatisfactory substitute. Another point you may want to consider is that recipes calling for tail fat oftentimes call for other types of oil and/or fats in addition to the tail fat. Ras Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 12:04:27 -0000 From: nanna at idunn.is (Nanna Rognvaldardottir) Subject: Re: SC - Fat tailed sheep Ras wrote: >Lamb fat would be a far better substitute than either lard or oil. Neither >lard nor oil possess the requisite flavor that tail fat does. Quite correct, but tail fat is softer than inside fat from lamb, has a lower melting point and does not have the tallowy aftertaste that inside fat sometimes does, so it may not be totally interchangeable. Not that I have much experience with tail fat, as Icelandic sheep are short-tailed, but I understand the fat has much the same characteristics as the soft deposits of fat sometimes found around the throat, or on the feet. Fotafeiti, "feet fat" - that is, rendered fat from sheep's feet - used to be the preferred fat here for frying sweet things like kleinur, love balls and pancakes, because of these characteristics. Nanna Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:26:15 -0000 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" <nannar at isholf.is> Subject: Re: SC - Fat tailed sheep Adamantius wrote: >ha...I wonder if this is a facet of a different level of hydrogenation, >or a difference in the tissues themselves. Charles Perry has an explanation that I'm not quite sure I understand but it goes like this: "An animal can only metabolize its fat in liquid form. The inevitable consequence of this is that fat stored near the surface of the body, where it is influenced by ambient temperatures which are usually lower than the bodys own temperature, has a lower melting point than fat stored deep in the body. ... Unlike hard fat, however, which might be deposited in large, convenient lumps in the interior of the carcass, most soft fat was scantily dispersed all over the body subcutaneously. Sheep sometimes deposit larger lumps of soft fat in other places, such as the neck and throat. These deposits have limited value, however; there might be cool ambient temperatures on one side of the lump but warm body temperatures on the other. Fat deposited on the tail turned out to be the solution. Surrounded as it is by cool temperatures, the tail can be home to a substantial slab of fat with a texture somewhat like bacon, though of course with a muttony aroma." (The same would go for the feet; any fat deposited there would also be surrounded by lower temperatures on all sides.) Nanna From - Fri Apr 14 00:14:38 2000 To: spca-wascaerfrig at egroups.com Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 22:05:30 EDT From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: [spca-wascaerfrig] Mongolian hot pot for a meal? In a message dated 4/13/00 1:14:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, stefan at texas.net writes: << I'm not sure whether Asia had sesame oil in our period or not. Europe didn't, I'm pretty sure. >> Both Greece and the Kingdom of Jerusalem knew sesame oil as did Andelusia. Andelusia being the most western of western Europe, I would say that sesame oil definitely WAS period in Europe. Ras Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 16:14:17 -0700 From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: Re: SC - an interesting challenge...and its even about medieval food! :) Allison, allilyn at juno.com wrote: >Chiquart's chickpeas--vegan (SNIP) >[possibly, if almond oil is not available, olive oil and >almond extract might be used. (SNIP) No need to put almond extract into your cooking oil. Almond oil, aka sweet almond oil, is very "mild" and doesn't have a strong flavor, unlike a good olive oil has a very pronounced flavor. Sweet almond oil doesn't taste like bitter almond, which is the common "almond flavor". So I'd say, if you have no almond oil, use a light vegetable oil of some sort (not peanut, for example, as it too has a pronounced flavor). But you can find sweet almond oil at health food stores where the other cooking and salad oils are, so you might give it a try. Anahita al-shazhiyya Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 08:44:34 EDT From: ChannonM at aol.com Subject: SC - Re: Refrying fritters > If the temp is too low > they get really grease soaked and heavy. Another > thing, use peanut oil for frying if using a vegetable > oil. Stuff doesn't burn as fast because it has a > higher smoke/burn temp. If you are trying to maintain a period dish, using canola oil would be a better substitute. Canola is known in period as rape seed oil (or the vegetable rape), hence the name change to a more PC term. The etymology has something to do with the latin I believe (notes are not at hand). Hauviette Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 18:05:04 PDT From: "Bonne of Traquair" <oftraquair at hotmail.com> Subject: Re: SC - Re: Refrying fritters > > use peanut oil for frying if using a vegetable > > oil. Stuff doesn't burn as fast because it has a > > higher smoke/burn temp. > >If you are trying to maintain a period dish, using canola oil would be a >better substitute. Is the allergen some people are sensitive to present in peanut oil? If so, then canola oil is not only better for being an oil that might have been used in period, but it leaves you out of the allergic reaction by unknowing diner scenario. Bonne (who recently learned that, back home, a friend with food allergies who DOES ask the cook in advance in order to make informed choices, was not fully informed and had to make a sudden exit from feast to hospital last weekend.) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 00:12:44 -0000 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" <nannar at isholf.is> Subject: Re: SC - Lucrezia in Marketland - mainly OOP - LONG Lucrezia wrote: >I also picked up some goose fat (which was great on roast potatoes) but >there's heaps too much for me to use over the next couple of weeks. Anyone >know if it'll be OK if I throw some of it in the freezer? You can but you shouldnt need to. It keeps very well. I just finished the goose fat I bought in London in February - I simply kept it in the fridge. And I brought some more home from Hungary - just wish I could have brought more but there were so many foodstuffs I had to bring home ... Nanna Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 09:35:08 -0000 From: "Nanna Rognvaldardottir" <nanna at idunn.is> Subject: Re: SC - goose fat Stefan wrote: >Wow. This sounds wonderful. I really liked the duck fat that I've >gotten when cooking ducks. Is goose fat very similar? It never occurred >to me that such an item might be available seperately. But then duck >is not common here and I've never seen goose nor ever eaten any. Fairly similar, although Ive never had commercially rendered duck fat for comparision, but the fat I get from my own duck-cooking seems to have much the same qualities as goose fat. The taste is slightly different but not so it matters greatly. Duck and goose fat is the preferred cooking fat of Southwestern France and Hungary, for instance. It is great for roasting potatoes and other vegetables, or for browning meat and poultry (use it by itself or mixed with some oil). Or try to add a spoonful or two to soups and stews. Or use it in piecrusts for savoury pies. Im sure it is loaded with cholesterol and other things that are bad for you but goose fat, at least, is mostly monosaturated fat and has a much lower ratio of saturated fat than butter or lard. Nanna Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:56:18 -0000 From: "Nanna Rognvaldardottir" <nanna at idunn.is> Subject: Re: SC - goose fat Stefan wrote: >Those are two widely spaced regions. Is there any particular simularity to >the cuisine that would make goose fat preferable? Or is it not unique >to those areas and was at one time used in Germany and areas in between >as well? Is there any particular reason southwest France and Hungary >would raise more goose than other places? Or perhaps there is some >reason that the use of goose fat stands out more in those two regions? Well, one similarity that springs to mind is that both the French and the Hungarians are very fond of goose liver, which means the overstuffed geese yield a LOT of fat. Im told the ideal conditions for geese are sandy soil and lots of sun, which would hold true for both the Great Plain of Hungary and parts of Southwestern France. (And Hungarian goose liver is absolutely delicious; the sauted goose liver with apples that I had at the Gundel restaurant in Budapest last week was one of the best things Ive ever eaten, and the true highlight of a wonderful seven-course meal). These are not the only regions where goose fat is used, though. It is used to some extent in Germany, Switzerland and Austria, for instance, and in Romania and some of the Balkan countries. Nanna Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 08:21:07 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - goose fat IIRC, they are both within the Saxon held lands between the 9th and 12th Centuries. Also, one needs to consider that the use of bird fat, chicken fat in particular is common to Jewish cookery across Europe. Bear Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 19:29:46 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - crendering chicken fat KarenO wrote: > Does anyone know what the process for rendering chicken fat for pie crust? > I've been making chicken stock, and my roomie tells me tales of how a > former co-worker used to render the chicken fat to make her pie crusts. > I've been cooling the stock, and skimming off the fat layer, even freezing > some. You can do that, but another method would be to pull the neck and apron (abdominal) fat off the raw chicken, then freeze it until you have a pound or two, or more, then render that. You can render fatty portions of skin, too. A good method is to very gently simmer the fat with a little water, until the skin and connective tissue soften, allowing for the fat to render more efficiently. When the water has cooked off, the real rendering begins, but the process ends up being faster and better in the long run because there's less potential for browning of the fat. > Also, can I freeze the fat (as is now) and finish the process later? Yuss. I've never had a piecrust made with chicken fat. Maybe knoedeln, but I guess it would work. Adamantius Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 10:47:46 -0400 From: "Nicholas Sasso" <NJSasso at msplaw.com> Subject: Re: SC - rendering chicken fat In my reading of Grigson's Charcuterie and some other references from turn of the century, grinding the material before the rendering will give you a generally easier and more efficient extraction. The tissues are all broken up, and there is a quicker melting of the animal fat before the surrounding tissues brown/burn. I am teaching a basic class on rendering beef and pork fats in November in GA. Promises t be fun. The method I am using is heating water in quantity (say three gallons) and then adding ground tissues to the pot. The tissues render and sink a little, leaving the fats floating on top. Skim the fat off, press the tissues, and you got lard/tallow. The water serves to regular/diffuse the heat and prevent scorching. Cool stuff. Anyone got medieval references to how to render? I haven't looked through Menagier or Scully's stuff yet, and that is my weekend project. niccolo difrancesco Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 02:58:34 EDT From: Mordonna22 at aol.com Subject: SC - Rendering fat I have not attempted to render chicken any kind of fowl fat, but I have done pork and beef. When we butchered hogs, we rendered the lard thusly: 1.) clean a 55 gallon cast iron cauldron and place on a hot fire to preheat 2.) remove the fat and skin from the hog and cut into pieces about 3 inches on a side. 3.) place the fat and skin into the cauldron, adding just enough water to keep it from scorching. 4.) add minimum amounts of water occasionally until there is enough lard to keep the fat from scorching. 5.) when the "cracklings" are golden brown, and floating, remove from the fire and strain the lard into a clean, dry receptacle for storage. 6.) press the cracklings in a lard press to remove as much lard as possible. 7.) gorge on the hot, crisp cracklings.....this is the only time they are really good, in my opinion. Mordonna The Cook SunDragon, Atenveldt m.k.a. West Phoenix, AZ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 16:41:45 -0400 From: margali <margali at 99main.com> Subject: Re: SC - crendering chicken fat It depends on how pure you want it. I know that when I make schmaltz, I take the warm chicken fat, add about 2x as much water and whisk the bejesus out of it, then let it stand and use one of the gravy separators to pour the water out from underneath, and repeat once or twice. the water will pull out any non-fat impurities and excess congealed protein that can cause cloudiness. If you dont care about the protein and any little cooking remenants that just skimming the fat off the stock and saving it works. margali Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 21:23:43 From: "Vincent Cuenca" <bootkiller at hotmail.com> Subject: SC - fat consumption in period To add on to Adamantius' comments on fats (I deleted the digest so I can't quote directly): Maguelonne Toussaint-Samat's "History of Food" cites regional preferences for cooking fats. Lard was popular pretty much everywhere it was available, but southern Europe preferred olive oil over butter. She cites several accounts of Provencal and Catalan travelers bringing large supplies of oil with them when they were forced to travel northward; there was an apparent belief that eating butter caused leprosy. Of course, northern travelers in Italy experienced the opposite reaction; they were sickened by the smell of hot olive oil and pined for good northern butter. Now, Mme. Toussaint-Samat has some pretty heavy Francophilic tendencies, and she buys into the idea of half-rotten meat being popular in the Middle Ages, so I'm not taking her quite at face value. Her scholarship does seem to be pretty solid, though. Vicente Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 08:33:50 -0800 From: Susan Fox-Davis <selene at earthlink.net> Subject: Re: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #2934 - noodles with sugar Platina also tells how to make schmaltz, not by that name but the process of the extraction of usable cooking fat from animal fatty tissues is more or less the same and he mentions the use of Goose and other poultry at the end of the paragraph. Book at home, Me at work, but that's how I seem to recall it. Platina is turning out to be surprisingly useful for documenting use of familiar elements in modern Jewish cooking, isn't he? Selene From: rcmann4 at earthlink.net To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 23:29:37 -0400 Subject: Re: medieval healthy food was Re: [Sca-cooks] Tiramisu On 18 Jun 01,, LrdRas at aol.com wrote: > I would also prominently remind people that olive oil was being substituted > for lard if the original does not indicate such a substitution. While other > fats can be substituted for lard in certain recipes such substitutions not > only change the final flavor of the dish but also takes it from the realms of > a period recipe to a modern recipe based on a a period source. That depends on the recipe. In period Spanish cuisine, olive oil is listed over and over again as the substitution for lard/bacon fat in Lent. Nola explicitly says that a water-salt-oil mixture can be used as a substitute for broth to make flesh-day recipes suitable for Lent. So in a recipe for leek pottage, I might choose to make a Lenten version, and replace the bacon fat with oil. Yes, there will be a taste difference, but the result will not be a modern dish. (Although it will serve the modern purpose of being vegetarian- friendly.) On the other hand, I would not make that substitution in a recipe for chicken livers fried in bacon fat with egg yolks. There is no period justification for doing so, and it would not accomplish anything useful. Lady Brighid ni Chiarain Settmour Swamp, East (NJ) From: "Hrolf Douglasson" <Hrolf at btinternet.com> To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Cauldron cooking Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 23:02:00 +0100 > I've got vegan friends too, including our baroness. Please clarify for me > what you mean by "vegetarian suet"? Its made by the same people as make UK brands of pure suet (ATORA) and is vegatarian/vegan. I have found that it reacts exactly the same as the normal stuff. Available in supermarkets this side of the water vara From: jenne at fiedlerfamily.net Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 08:17:48 -0400 (EDT) To: SCA-Cooks maillist <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] olives in period Russia > > BTW, other oils such as poppyseed, hempseed and flaxseed were used. > Used where? In northern Europe? Or do you mean in Russia? I believe all three were used in Russia. Poppyseed and hempseed oil were used in Poland. Hemp oil is mentioned in the Domostroi. Smith and Christian talk about the use of hempseed and flaxseed oil in _Bread and Salt_. However, looking at my notes, I don't see any documentation for poppyseed oil, though the Domostroi mentions keeping poppyseed on hand. > Which of these plants were grown in northern Europe? If there are > native plants that oil can be extracted from, does this mean that > it is less likely that they would have paid the price to import olive > oil? Or would taste (or even the extra expense) mean that olive was > still preferred? All of these plants: hemp, flax, field poppy, were grown in Northern Europe and Russia. In Poland, Olive oil was imported as a special luxury (according to Dembinska). Again, I don't have any references to olive oil in my few sources on Russian food. I'll try to remember to ask on the SIG list. -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa From: "Jim and Andi" <icbhod at home.com> To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Sesame oil, was Andalusian feast Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 10:38:44 -0600 -----Original Message----- Untoasted sesame oil is easy to find here, where both Vittoria and i live. Do you have a health food store (not a pill store) or natural foods store near you? We have quite a few around here and they all carry several different kinds of sesame oil. We also have a really wonderful market that sells fabulous produce that also carries the untoasted kind (Berkeley Bowl - so named because it used to be in the building that previously housed a bowling alley). Worth a look-see if anyone ever visits Berkeley. Untoasted is NOT likely to be at ethnic markets, in my experience. Since the toasted is used in several East Asian cuisines, not just Chinese, it is what you're most likely to find in the ethnic markets. Anahita ----------------------- I think it depends on what ethnic markets you have near you. I live in Nashville TN, and while the Asian markets only have the dark toasted sesame oil, the Middle Eastern markets have several different brands of the regular sesame oil. And the price difference can be astounding between the health food markets and the ethnic markets, *especially* for stuff like that. I would price it first, even if you have to drive a little ways for the cheaper ethnic store. I priced whole cardamom pods here just a few days ago, and at the local Wild Oats they cost $4.69 for 2 oz. but at the Indian market they cost $4 for a half-pound. Nuts, tahini, dates, and spices and rice were all significantly cheaper. Madhavi From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcmann4 at earthlink.net> To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 11:41:43 -0500 Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lenten oils, was Honey Butter? On 6 Mar 2002, at 11:30, A F Murphy wrote: > What did people in the north use as cooking fats during Lent? They > couldn't use either butter or lard, which I think were otherwise the > standards. The only oil I know about in period (my knowledge not being > extensive) is olive oil, and while that might have been available, how > common would it have been? I'm sure the wealthy would have imported olive oil. The other oil that was in use was rapeseed oil (commonly called canola oil in modern U.S.) According to C. Anne Wilson in _Food and Drink in Britain_, large-scale cultivation of rapeseed did not begin until the 16th century; before that, the oil was mostly imported from Flanders. > Of course, this actually raises another question. As I write this, I > realize I take it for granted that they needed to brown onions, saut=E9 > some foods, pan fry fish... Did they, actually? I haven't read many > recipes yet, but it occurs to me that I don't think I have encountered > these techniques much, if at all, yet. There are period recipes for pan-frying all kinds of foods, though deep-frying recipes are rare. I took a quick look through the fish section of _Take a Thousand Eggs_. Most of the recipes call for grilling, roasting, or stewing the fish, but there are a few that say to fry them in oil. Brighid ni Chiarain *** mka Robin Carroll-Mann Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom From: jenne at fiedlerfamily.net Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 12:10:23 -0500 (EST) To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lenten oils, was Honey Butter? > What did people in the north use as cooking fats during Lent? They > couldn't use either butter or lard, which I think were otherwise the > standards. The only oil I know about in period (my knowledge not being > extensive) is olive oil, and while that might have been available, how > common would it have been? There's also poppyseed oil, flaxseed oil, and hempseed oil. I don't know how common they were outside of Eastern Europe though. I'm sure I have docs somewhere but one of my bookshelves suddenly suffered morbid lean a bit ago and everything I need seems to be trapped in there. -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lenten oils, was Honey Butter? Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 11:27:36 -0600 Almost any seed can be crushed for oil. Walnut oil was fairly common in Northern Europe and the European almonds which appear in cookbooks all over Europe contain more oil than those we eat in the US. Hemp and flax seed have also been pressed for their oil. I seem to remember complaints about the price of olive oil in Northern Europe. Prior to the 13th Century, information about olive oil imports may prove sketchy, but after the founding of the Hanseatic League in 1241, I believe you will find imports of olive oil listed in their records. I also suspect a number of people honored the Lenten prohibition by simply neglecting it. Bear From: "Chickengoddess" <rhiannon at madcelt.com> To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 07:52:25 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Lenten oils FYI, the Orthodox Catholic tradition rules out olives and olive oil for lent. Now, looking at the pre-Trent Roman Catholic Church, we see that it is much less like what the RC Church has evolved into in modern times and much more like the Eastern Orthodox traditions in both liturgy and custom. In the Eastern Churches (Greece, Serbia, Russia, Antiochian, Jerusalem, etc) lent means no meat, fish dairy or olive products. Strict observance means totally oil free. For some odd reason shrimp and shellfish are ok. Perhaps in this instance, it would be more useful to look into the religious sources of the period in western Europe for this information than the cooking sources, as the religious practices dictated the dietary changes. Just a thought, Rhiannon Cathaoir-mor South Downs, Meridies Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:28:06 -0400 Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period cooking oils? From: Daniel Myers <doc at bookofrefreshments.com> To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org On Wednesday, July 10, 2002, at 08:08 PM, El Hermoso Dormido wrote: > I'm looking in my pantry and suddenly find myself wondering how > many oils besides olive oil are period... On a quick check, almond oil, walnut oil, "nut oil", and "special oil" are referenced in "Libellus de arte coquinaria" [Northern Europe, ca. 1300] (I've no idea what the last two oils are - and apparently neither did the translators). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edouard Halidai (Daniel Myers) http://www.bookofrefreshments.com/doc/ Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 17:37:52 -0700 From: Robin Carroll-Mann<rcmann4 at earthlink.net> To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period cooking oils? On Wed, 10 Jul 2002 18:08:48 -0600 El Hermoso Dormido <ElHermosoDormido at dogphilosophy.net> wrote: "I'm looking in my pantry and suddenly find myself wondering how many oils besides olive oil are period..." [snip] "Is almond or walnut oil period?" Almond oil and sesame oil were used for cooking, though they show up mostly in Middle Eastern and Mediterranean sources. I have seen other kinds of nut and seed oils in Spanish recipes for cosmetics. The Manual de Mugeres has a recipe for hand & face pomade, which calls for the following oils, in addition to lard and wax: sweet almonds bitter almonds peach seed melon seed poppy seed The same source also mentions sesame oil and masticin other recipes (for cosmetic use). I don't offhand recall seeing a mention of walnut oil in period sources, but as walnuts are frequently mentioned, I think it likely that someone was extracting oil from them. Brighid ni Chiarain Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 09:40:33 -0700 From: Susan Fox-Davis <selene at earthlink.net> To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] proper cracklings Chiklins, that's a hoot! Did you ever notice that schmaltz is documentable from a source that we have? Look in Platina, near the beginning under "Liquimen." At the end of the lard-rendering process, they say that you can render chicken fat by the same method. Woohoo! Seton1355 at aol.com wrote: > Saw the title, had to comment! > OK, the Jewish version of cracklings is called *gribnis* Same cooking deal, > only we use chicken. <snipperoo> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 05:40:22 -0400 To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] schmaltz Also sprach Mark S. Harris: >What is "schmaltz"? I take it that it is a Jewish word (although it sounds >German, Yiddish?) for rendered chicken fat? How is it used? To fry >things in, like lard is? How does cooking in it compare to lard? Is it >not more common because chickens don't have much fat or is there some >other reason? I realize that the Jewish folks may simply accept any >additional difficulties since they avoid the more common pork fat/lard. I believe schmaltz just means fat, so while it can refer to rendered fat (something other than pork, but not necessarily chicken, although chicken is sort of the default setting for Jews, in most cases), it can also refer to herring taken in the season when they're especially fatty. I would say cooking in chicken fat (based on observation) is a little more like cooking in bacon fat (i.e. the rendered fat from cooking cured bacon) than like lard proper. I think it doesn't hold up as well for as long as lard does under high heat. I don't _think_ you'd use chicken fat for deep-frying, for example, because I think it burns a little more easily. However, you can use it for sauteeing, and even for pastry and other shortening purposes (for example, it's a common/traditional fat for things like matzoh balls). You can also spread it on bread, to moisten it, if, say, you're eating a dairyless meal and want to avoid butter. This isn't just applicable to Jewish foods, BTW: certain Chinese dishes can be cooked in chicken fat (Yangchow fried rice being traditionally cooked in either lard or chicken fat, for example), and there's a huge tradition in parts of Southwestern France and in Central Europe to cook in goose fat, which is somewhat similar. Adamantius From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net> To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] schmaltz Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 07:13:48 -0500 "Schmalz" is German for "cooking fat" or "lard." "Schmaltz" is the Yiddish form. The differentiation between lard and chicken fat is religious, as you surmise. When you deal with older texts it can be a little tricky to determine which is meant since the spelling was often phonetic. Bear >Ok, I guess it's been a while. So time for another Stefan question. > >What is "schmaltz"? I take it that it is a Jewish word (although it sounds >German, Yiddish?) for rendered chicken fat? How is it used? To fry >things in, like lard is? How does cooking in it compare to lard? Is it >not more common because chickens don't have much fat or is there some >other reason? I realize that the Jewish folks may simply accept any >additional difficulties since they avoid the more common pork fat/lard. Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:12:45 -0400 From: Devra at aol.com To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: [Sca-cooks] Schmaltz I suspect that schmaltz isn't used as much as butter because there aren't a lot of convenient commercial sources for it, the way there are with butter I have seen it sold in jars (1 C?) in the long past, but can't remember seeing it recently. You can of course make your own; it just requires some attention to keep the fat from browning. And it keeps moderately well in the fridge. It's not that chickens don't have enough fat--you ever pull the loose fat out of a capon/oven stuffer roaster? Schmaltz was traditionally used to fry things like potato pancakes. Hard to do reduced cholesterol with it, though. Devra From: "Mercedes/Stephanie" <steldr at cox.net> To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Schmaltz Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:37:17 -0500 I can usually get it at a small, high end grocery store here in Tulsa, it's frozen and is usually with the kosher chickens and such. I used to pick up a container at a grocery store in Dallas that has a large kosher section, over near Forest Ln and Preston, maybe? I do remember, many years ago, that we used to buy it just refrigerated in jars in the butter area of the grocery store. I only use it when we make chopped liver. Mercedes Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:00:18 -0700 From: Susan Fox-Davis <selene at earthlink.net> To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Schmaltz Chicken fat is just not as necessary for all-purpose cooking fat/bread spread since the invention of pareve margarine. [Pareve = neutral for purposes of milk vs. meat meals.] Between that and the modern medical knowlege that animal fats are bad for you, schmaltz' days were numbered. Let's face it, the traditional Ashkenazy diet has probably killed more Jews throughout the centuries than Hitler and Haman combined, and much more insidiously! This, says the woman who just had a last-hurrah meal of kishka and stuff before seriously contemplating the low-carb Atkins diet again. Urgh. Soy blini anybody? Selene Colfox Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:56:06 -0700 (PDT) From: robert frazier <robertblacksmith at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Turnip/rape? To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org rapeseed is a grain crushed for cooking oil.the first large amounts sold.modernly,was by the canadian oil company.because rape is a bad word it's known as "canola oil". The oil has been found as far back as the norse digs in dublin.very period and cheap. robert frazier stallarifannsk household,An Tir To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Subject: [Sca-cooks] Turnip/rape? Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 16:04:13 -0500 Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org > So if "rapes" are turnips, what is rapeseed? Is it turnip seed, or a > different plant entirely? > > Vicente Actually "rapes" are Brassica napus var. napobrassica better known as the Swedish turnip or rutabaga or B. napus var. napus, the canola or annual rape, close relatives of Brassica rapa var. rapa, the field turnip. Of course the average peasant probably called everything that looked like a turnip, a rape. Rapeseed are the seeds of the rutabaga and rapeseed oil is the oil pressed from the seeds. Canola oil is rapeseed oil which is low in erucic acid and is pressed from the seeds of the canola. Bear Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 23:18:06 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] plea for help-- Soup for the Qan To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Fat-tailed sheep are called that because they store large quantities of fat in the nether regions around the tail. There are a number of breeds, most of which have very coarse wool suitable for carpets. I haven't worked with it but I would think that mutton fat or beef tallow would be closer than butter. It is definitely not marrow. Bear >> would the marrow in the sheep's tail have had an effect other than >> the butter? > > I had read (somewhere) that the sheeps tail was used for the fat content, > and one of the suggested substitutes was .. butter? Maybe I got that > wrong? > >> Jared > Maggie Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 15:36:22 -0800 From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Holiday Sweets To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Katira wrote: [talking about hais] > I get a mixture that holds together well and is more > like a sweet than a travel food (Cariadoc's version is > so dry it is almost impossible to shape according to a > helper at a feast he was doing, though it was still > quite tasty). I also tried the sesame oil in my first > version and felt it overpowered all the other flavors. > I also found it was quite an oily mixture. Ugh. The > butter is perfect for my taste. Did you use a nice cold-pressed sesame oil from a health food store? Or one from a Middle Eastern market? Or the dark roasted East Asian kind from the supermarket? I find a good quality cold-pressed sesame oil has a wonderful flavor that adds rather than detracts from the dishes to which it is added. Spectrum oils has two. I prefer the cold-pressed organic for flavor, but it is more expensive than their other oil, so I buy a bit of each for feasts, for a compromise for best flavor and price. Not too long ago, I decided to try the cheaper Middle Eastern sesame oil. Although the finished product was acceptable, and I imagine most diners didn't notice, it did not have the same wonderful fresh nutty flavor of the cold-pressed oil. I find this kind, which is hot pressed or chemically extracted I don't know which, to be bitter. The dark roasted East Asian sesame oil is generally available in supermarkets and several people on various lists have used it mistakenly. This kind was not used in Near Eastern food and is, of course, completely unsuitable, as it adds an overpowering flavor to the food, rather than the wonderful flavor of cold-pressed sesame oil. It is meant to be used only as a flavoring in finishing a dish and is added at the end after the dish has pretty much finished cooking. In the proper setting it is wonderful, but Near Eastern food is not the place it should be. Anahita Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 10:23:40 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Christiane <christianetrue at earthlink.net> Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Mediterranean food To: ekoogler1 at comcast.net, Cooks within the SCA <sca-ooks at ansteorra.org> Here's what Clifford Wright has to say about the use of butter and other animal fats in medieval Sicilian cuisine. What's really interesting to me is that he mentions the village where my grandmother came from, Corleone. "In the fourteenth century and up until the beginning of the eighteenth century, animal fats such as butter, bacon, lard, mutton fat (perhaps a vestige of the Arab presence), and beef suet were the fats used in Sicilian cooking. In fact, the preferred cooking fat in fifteenth-century Sicily was butter. According to the stricfizarii (taxation records), these were the largest purchases. In Corleone, a mountain town of western Sicily, butter was sold in a quartara, a kind of narrow-necked earthenware vessel and was sometimes the only food to accompany the bread available to the agricultural workers who used it frequently in place of cheese. Although olive oil, the cooking fat most closely associated with Sicilian cooking today, has been produced continually throughout Sicilian history, it was rare and expensive until recently. Although butter was used more than olive oil in Sicily, and it was a primary cooking fat, its production and distribution was neverthless limited. In the Middle Ages, only the Jews bought olive oil in quantity as pork fat was forbidden to them (the Muslim Sicilians having suffered their final expulsion in the 1230s). The Jewish cooks fondness for olive oil is partly behind this, but also most merchants dealing in Sicilian olive oil for export were Jews. Don't let the abundant use of olive oil in contemporary Sicilian recipes fool you into thinking that olive oil was always abundant in Sicily. When olive oil, with its modest production, was used, it was used on bread or for seasoning dried vegetable soups." There are some useful essays on Mr. Wright's site about food history for the Mediteranean region. http://www.cliffordawright.com Gianotta Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 23:39:12 -0500 From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcmann4 at earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Grapeseed oil and liana syrup To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> On 15 Nov 2004, at 9:57, Patrick Levesque wrote: > Can we document grapeseed oil in period? (probably, but where?... > Actually, does > anybody knows of sources devoted specifically to oil pressing, and the > various > kind of oils used, in period? Specifically late period Italy, but any > reference > will be interesting... I'm heading off to the Florilegium right now to > check what's there :-)))) I know that grapeseed oil appears in the Manual de Mugeres (Spanish household manual, 15th/16th c.). However, it is in recipes for cosmetics. I don't know about culinary use, though I don't remember seeing it in other Spanish culinary sources. Sorry. Brighid ni Chiarain *** mka Robin Carroll-Mann Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 10:13:50 +0100 From: henna <hennar at gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Devilled Eggs (was: Out of the food topic altogether rant Authenticitypolice) To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 21:19:43 -0500, Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius <adamantius.magister at verizon.net> wrote: > Also sprach Bill Fisher: >> On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 01:30:03 +0100, henna <hennar at gmail.com> wrote: >>> They aren't fried in lard, but in butter or turnipfat :) >> >> What is "turnipfat" - I am not familiar with this? >> >> Anyone? > > Rapeseed oil? Which is, I believe, a period cooking fat in Northern > Europe? I think rapeseed oil as well, It's an oil made from the seeds of turnips (pretty yellow flowers :)), at least if turnip is indeed Brassica rapa 'cause otherwise there's a translation error. Finne Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 08:22:50 -0500 From: Bill Fisher <liamfisher at gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Devilled Eggs (was: Out of the food topic altogether rant Authenticitypolice) To: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius.magister at verizon.net> Cc: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 21:19:43 -0500, Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius <adamantius.magister at verizon.net> wrote: > Rapeseed oil? Which is, I believe, a period cooking fat in Northern > Europe? > > Adamantius Heh, rapeseed is otherwise known as canola oil, Rapes are a member of the mustard family. Rape oil was toxic until the crafty Canadians in Canadia bred a much less toxic version of the plant in recent history. Apparently erucic acid causes huge fatty deposits in and around the heart and kills you quickly. Brassicaceae, Cruciferae is the varietal. Cadoc Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 13:49:41 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Devilled Eggs (was: Out of the food topic altogetherrant Authenticitypolice) To: "Bill Fisher" <liamfisher at gmail.com>, "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Cruciferae (according to Juss) is the botanical family commonly called mustards. Brassicaceae is an alternative family name put forward by Burnett. The rape is genus Brassica species napus. Common varietals are napus, napobrassica, annua, biennis, and pabularia. Ain't taxonomy fun? Bear > Heh, rapeseed is otherwise known as canola oil, Rapes are a member of > the mustard family. Rape oil was toxic until the crafty Canadians in Canadia > bred a much less toxic version of the plant in recent history. > Apparently erucic > acid causes huge fatty deposits in and around the heart and kills you > quickly. > > Brassicaceae, Cruciferae is the varietal. > > Cadoc Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 09:47:15 -0800 From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Aqras Mukallala To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Someone wrote: >> Would this have been a roasted or a plain sesame oil? I seem to >> remember comments on this list that what you wanted for medieval Middle >> Eastern recipes was the non-roasted stuff, which was harder to find, >> and I think my searching for it bore this out. Yes, UNROASTED. Here in Berzerkley, i have no problem finding cold-pressed sesame oil. Jadwiga wrote: > By the way, if you find a reasonably priced source for this, I want > some. Sesame oil (the light kind) > is the base for Neutrogena body oil. I buy good quality cold pressed sesame oil at the health food store - i get Spectrum brand. How reasonable the price is depends on how much you want to buy. IIRC, it's around $4 for 12 ounces. Since i only use it occasionally (and i keep it in the fridge to retard oxidation, i.e., so it doesn't get rancid too fast), i don't mind paying the price for good flavor and quality. I have tried the sesame oil from the Middle Eastern market, which is cheaper, but ya gets what ya pays for. It was nowhere near as good in freshness or flavor as the health food brand. If i were putting oil on my skin, i'd want the cleanest freshest i could get, so i'd go for the Spetrum brand. -- Urtatim, formerly Anahita Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 22:44:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Kathleen Madsen <kmadsen12000 at yahoo.com> Subject: [Sca-cooks] Cooking fats in period England To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org They used a lot of clarified butter (ghee) as their cooking fat. It was typical to have a pot of it above or near the cooking area so that it could be quickly added to the pot if needed. This is referenced in Ann Hagen's books on foods in Anglo-Saxon England, if I remember right - I don't actually own a copy. I've seen it in another spot and am wracking my brain to remember where. If I recall, I'll post it. Also, I've never seen reference in period manuscripts to bread served with butter spread upon it. It seems more like a modern convention that is a society-wide practice. My thoughts, Eibhlin Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 23:52:23 -0700 From: Susan Fox <selene at earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Cooking fats in period England To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> On 7/16/05 10:44 PM, "Kathleen Madsen" <kmadsen12000 at yahoo.com> wrote: > They used a lot of clarified butter (ghee) as their > cooking fat. It was typical to have a pot of it above > or near the cooking area so that it could be quickly > added to the pot if needed. Well, they did not call it by the Hindi word "ghee" and actually, ghee proper is also cooked beyond mere melting and clarification to impart a slightly nutty flavor. This does not stop me from keeping a jar of pre-packaged ghee by my stove, for use as you describe. Ancient Anglo-Saxons unfortunately had very few South Asian mini-marts in their neighborhoods. <smile> Selene Colfox Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 22:21:09 -0400 From: Daniel Myers <eduard at medievalcookery.com> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Cooking fats in period England To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> On Jul 17, 2005, at 3:42 PM, Carole Smith wrote: > There are other groups that use clarified butter today, and > probably in period as well. The Arabic word is samneh (pronounced > Sam nah with slight emphasis on the first syllable). And of course > clarified butter is used in French cooking as well. Interestingly enough, there is an ingredient with a similar name and purpose ("saim") being used in period France. Check lines 15 and 35 below. From "Enseignements qui enseingnent a apareillier toutes manieres de viandes" (ca. 1300) http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/%7Egloning/1300ens.htm http://www.medievalcookery.com/notes/lessons.shtm (my translation) |13| Char de porc: la loingne en rost, en yver e en estei, as aus vers. E qui en |14| veut en chivei si la depieche par morseaus; (c)e puis cuisiez oingnons en |15| saim, e broez de poivre e d'autres espices e pain ars, e desfaites en un |16| mortier; puis destrempez de l'eve ou le porc sera cuit; puis metez |17| boillir e metez sus les morseaus qui avront estei arochi e du sel, e tout |18| cen metez en escueles e du chiv de sus. (Pork: roasted loin, in winter and in summer, with green garlic. And which if wanted in gravy then cut it into pieces; And then cook onions in grease, and ground pepper and other spices and toasted bread, and grind in a mortar; Then temper with the water that the pork cooked in; Then put it to boil and put over the pieces which have been pulled and of salt, and all this put in a bowl with the gravy thereon.) [...] |32| por char de veel -- Char de veel en rost, la loingne parboullie en eve, e puis lardee e rostie |33| e mengie as aus vers ou au poivre. E se vous en volez a la charpie, parboulliez |34| la en eve e puis si la depechiez par morseaus en une pelle, et puis |35| frissiez les morseaus en une paiele en saim ou (la) lart, e puis metez des |36| ous batuz dessus, e puis poudrs [pondrez_(o')_Ms.] de sus de poivre, si sera charpie. E se |37| aucuns en veut en past, parboulliez la en eve e puis lardez, detrenchiez |38| par morseaus e les metez en past. (For veal -- Roasted veal, the loin parboiled in water, and then lard and eat with green garlic or pepper. And if you would like it minced, parboil it in water and then cut into pieces in a pan, and then fry the pieces in a pan in grease or bacon fat, and then put beaten eggs therein, and then sprinkle with pepper, then that is minced. And if otherwise wanted in a pie, parboil it in water and then lard it, slice into pieces and put it in a pie.) In both cases I translated this as "grease". Scully has "sain" and "saing" in the glossary of _Viandier_ and defines it as, "drippings from a roast, grease (esp. of pork)." Greg Lindahl's site seems to be down, so I can't check Cottgrave's dictionary. (I hope it's just temporary) - Doc -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edouard Halidai (Daniel Myers) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 09:01:49 -0800 From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Hais report To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Adamantius wrote: > On Nov 8, 2005, at 11:34 PM, CLdyroz at aol.com wrote: >> I really do not like the oil. I do agree that the next batch should >> use butter. > > If/when you used sesame oil, was it the toasted or untoasted-seed > variety? This would make a pretty dramatic difference in the flavor. > > I assume that, if the original calls for sesame oil, there's a good > chance they liked the flavor that way. It only remains to be explored > why your experience was different. Which, I of course realize, is > what you're doing... I find that using *quality* ingredients really does make a difference, at least, i can taste it. For "Middle Eastern" cuisine, *non-toasted* sesame oil is the kind to use. Very definitely NOT the dark roasted Chinese sesame oil. I love sesame oil. I sometimes mix half-and-half butter-and-sesame oil to make pie crusts. I've tried several different kinds. And they are not equals. I suspect the unpleasantness of the sesame oil in the hais was due to an inferior sesame oil. From a halal market: some brand from the Middle East. It was bitter, and had a slightly stale (not rancid) flavor and an unpleasant "greasy" feel. I used it because it was cheap - but i would NOT recommend it and will NOT use it again. From the health food store, Spectrum produces many vegetable oils. -- The Spectrum organic cold-pressed unrefined sesame oil was THE best. But expensive. I use it if i'm making something for myself and a couple other people. -- Spectrum has two other sesame oils that are cheaper - unrefined and refined - not quite as good as the unrefined organic, but good. For feasts i buy the cheaper one - the refined - it doesn't have the same wonderful earthy-nutty flavor of the unrefined organic, but it's not bad, and it's waaaaay better than the awful stuff from the halal market. Why use inferior ingredients that make a bad tasting dish? -- Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM) the persona formerly known as Anahita Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 20:31:11 -0500 From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius.magister at verizon.net> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Hais report To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> On Nov 15, 2005, at 7:26 PM, K C Francis wrote: >> From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius.magister at verizon.net> > -snip >> So, when you used sesame oil, what kind of sesame oil did you use? >> >> Adamantius > > can't be sure, but it might have been the toasted. I really like > how the butter works so that is always my choice for this recipe. Okay. The toasted-seed variety is usually pretty dark brown, often a Japanese brand like Kadoya. (Chinese brands can be even darker, almost opaque, with coffee-like overtones of flavor). Both toasted and untoasted types can sometimes go rancid fairly easily, too, so that might easily contribute to a sort of negative flavor effect. The untoasted-seed variety is lighter in color, almost colorless, like the oil that floats on top of a jar of tahini paste. It's a lot less aggressively flavored, and is probably the kind of oil preferred for Middle Eastern cookery. Adamantius Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 15:46:18 -0800 (PST) From: Carole Smith <renaissancespirit2 at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] used oil To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Michael Gunter countgunthar at hotmail.com when talking about deep-frying a turkey wrote: >>> Speaking of cleanup, what's the best way to dispose of the used oil? Gunthar <<< I suppose in this time most of us don't cook with oils, much less fry, often. But growing up in the deep South with parents who lived through the 1930's depression, the idea of throwing away that much oil after one use was unthinkable. Mom would let the oil cool until after dinner, by which time the flour, etc. settled to the bottom of the cooking pot. She'd pour the clear oil into a glass container (such as a mayonnaise jar) and seal it. Next time she wanted to fry or saute, the jar of oil would appear on the counter. We had no air conditioning, and the oil never went rancid in the cupboard. She did keep two jars - one for fish and one for everything else. The sludgy bits left in the cooking pot were always a good beginning of gravy if we wanted it. I keep a jar of used oil in the cupboard, although I fry far less often than Mom. I don't tell people about it because their reaction is always the same Eeeewwww! Cordelia Toser Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 09:27:41 -0400 From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1 at comcast.net> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] mongolian meat cakes To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org> Terry Decker wrote: > Roasted has a very strong flavor, and the feastcrat > cut what she used with sunflower oil. I would imagine there would > be a great difference in the flavor of roasted vs. unroasted sesame oil. > > ~Aislinn~ > > I use the toasted sesame oil primarily in hummus, because I prefer the > flavor. > > Bear Several Middle Eastern recipes call for sesame oil, and it was determined that the roasted oil was just too strong. I was able to get cold pressed oil from a Web site (in fact, I found it on E-Bay!!), though you should be able to get it at health food stores, if no where else. Kiri Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 12:18:23 -0400 From: "Martha Oser" <osermart at msu.edu> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sesame Oil (was: Mongolian Meat Cakes) To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org You should also be able to find the "light" sesame oil in a Middle Eastern market, if you have one nearby. It is light in color and flavor, rather than the caloric "lite" of the modern day. I am also finding it in the "international food" aisle of many large grocery stores these days - Meijer, for example, if you're familiar with them. The "al-Ziyad" brand seems to be the most prevalent. It has a label that's mainly yellow with some green and red print. -Helena > Several Middle Eastern recipes call for sesame oil, and it was > determined that the roasted oil was just too strong. I was able to > get cold pressed oil from a Web site (in fact, I found it on E-Bay!!), > though you should be able to get it at health food stores, if no > where else. > > Kiri Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 11:06:40 -0700 From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] mongolian meat cakes To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org First, as far as i can tell, toasted sesame oil is not really used as a basic cooking oil in East Asian cooking. It seems to me it is more of a flavoring, generally added near or at the end of cooking, or used for something that doesn't take long to cook. Second, the sesame oil used in Near and Middle Eastern cooking is from untoasted sesame seeds. Third, purchasing: I recommend Spectrum brand which i get at "health food" stores. They make several versions. The organic cold-pressed unrefined has the very best delicious earthy sesame flavor, but is more expensive than the others. The unrefined and the refined are both good and less expensive. Get what you can afford. I just noticed that it is also sold by Amazon.com, of all places, but i'd expect shipping to be a bit pricey. I have purchased sesame oil at a local Middle Eastern market and found it an inferior product, at least the brand i bought. But if it's all you can find, it is tolerable. I found it greasy feeling, bitter, and having an almost rancid quality. I suspect that the way the oil is extracted is affecting the flavor, as well, perhaps, as the way it had been stored and shipped. In any case, what i tried i found to be barely acceptable. But it sure was cheaper than the Spectrum. Of course, once you open a bottle of oil, it MUST be kept in the fridge, unless you will be using it all up rapidly. An opened bottle sitting on the counter, and especially if it's getting sunlight or near the stove, will oxidize, i.e., turn rancid. This will adversely affect the flavor of the food cooked with it. Olive oil doesn't do well in the fridge - since part will solidify - but keeping it in a cool dark place will prolong its life. However, if you rarely use it, keeping it in the fridge won't be bad, just be sure to take it out long enough ahead of time so it can reach room temperature and liquify. I also want to stress that the quality of ingredients one uses really has an effect on the flavor of dishes. For example, when yogurt is called for, i use whole milk yogurt without added stabilizers (no gelatin, no gums, no carrageenan, etc.) - and i'd use sheep's milk yogurt for Middle Eastern dishes if it weren't so darn expensive. When i'm cooking feasts, i have to make some compromises based on my budget, but i weigh them carefully. Sesame oil affects the flavor of the dishes that call for it, and i've found that spending an extra couple dollars for the good stuff was not a budget breaker. -- Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM) the persona formerly known as Anahita Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 14:19:48 -0400 From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Olive oil (was Re: Bread Recipe from my files) To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org> >> since it had to be imported...so if you're looking at, say, 14th-century >> English recipes, you wouldn't see a ton of olive oil, but it'd be >> all over the Italian cookbooks of the same period. > > While olives (or at least olive oil) would have been imported into > northern Europe, I don't believe that they were so rare as to be > hugely expensive. Yup, I think you may be looking at a consequence of the butter line here, in that butter would be more available above the butter line than below it. There's stuff about oils and fats in the 2002 Oxford Symposium on Food and Cookery http://www.oxfordsymposium.org.uk/contents2002.html Judy Gerjuoy gave a presentation there on the medieval fats but I don't think it made it into the proceedings. > I'll try to find more concrete evidence, but given the above in > connection with the number of recipes I've seen which call for olive > oil (including some that use it for frying), I'm inclined to believe > that while it was more expensive than lard, it was not considered > overly expensive and was commonly used in large quantities by the > middle and upper classes. I think I'd agree. -- -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net <the end> Edited by Mark S. Harris cooking-oil-msg Page 34 of 34