cheese-msg - 9/23/07 Medieval cheese. Recipes. Cheeses which date from medieval times. NOTE: See also the files: dairy-prod-msg, Cheese-Making-art, cheesemaking-msg, Charles-Chees-art, cheesecake-msg, cheese-goo-msg, clotted-cream-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: winifred at trillium.soe.umich.EDU (Lee Katman) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: forwarding recipe Date: 18 Apr 1993 19:18:58 -0400 here is the recipe I was trying to forward a few days ago. Let's hope this different editor does the trick for me.... Winifred Lee Katman Winifred at trillium.soe.umich.edu Cynnabar, Midrealm ------- Greetings from one who is new to the net and the SCA, but not to medieval cooking: I have a very good book of recipes called "Fabulous Feasts" by Madeleine Pelner Cosman which covers what was eaten, how it was presented and what what was available. Definitely two thumbs up! This book has a whole section on Appetizers. One that is very easy and fits your requirements is Brie Cheese with honey and mustard, which consists pretty much that. Cut the cheese into small pieces and dolup a little mustard (I prefer mustards with the seeds uncrushed) and a little bit of honey on top. Even if this dish gets a little warm it just softens the cheese. Victoria Williams Cauldwell vaw at lclark.sun.edu From: jtn at nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: feast formats Date: 9 Nov 1993 18:39:19 GMT Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn. Avwye writes, > FYI Jeff Smith's _The Frugal Gourmet Cooks Three Ancient Cuisines_ is >not a bad source for modern Greek and Roman foods. I've made a few Greek >students less homesick....I've also used it to compare medieval recipes >against, for things like amounts and cooking times. AND, he recommends Apicus >in his bibliography. (I believe there are some modern adaptations --not weird, >just using modern measures, etc.--in the collection, too.) This is all true. You should, however, be aware that he's a dreadful source on period or ancient cookery. It is one thing to have Apicius in your bibliography; it's another thing to write a book that reflects serious scholarship either in its text or in its recipes. Smith's book does the first, but not the second. -- But it is all good eating. > Earlier this thread was exploring the use of cheese in "period" feasts >served at events. My plea to cooks: please do not use cheese as a filler in >every single dish you serve. Some of us can't digest it, and even with the >lactose supplements our ability to digest dairy products is limited. Nothing _Nothing_ should be used in every single dish! Apart from the objection above, that there are probably people who can't eat it, anything you care to name (except maybe salt) is going to get seriously old with that much repetition. And it isn't period ;^). Despite complaints to the contrary, the figures I've been putting together show that even salt isn't that common. > And when you do use cheese, please do not use >American cheddar! Cheese may be period, but the cheddar variety is not! Most currently existing named varieties of cheese are post period; the name generally derives from issues including the specific species of critters that help make the stuff cheese, which are usually modern. There are a few exceptions, brie being one of the better known. Another, as I recall (but I don't have the information at home), is double gloucester. You can get it, but at least here, it's killingly expensive. Cheddar is actually not a bad substitute -- probably as similar to their hard cheese are our chickens are to their chickens, or our eggs to their eggs. Then again, they ate cheeses; that's a plural. If you're going to push a lot of cheese at people, it's only sensible to include some variety. Cheers, -- Angharad/Terry From: jtn at nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Cheese questions Date: 25 Nov 1993 04:59:30 GMT Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn. Fiammetta Adalieta writes, >Mistress Angharad, thank you and again thank you for your postings, You are most welcome; though I'm not a mistress (wife, yes ;^). >In the article on Ember day tarts, Angharad mentioned that cheddar and >munster cheeses (if I remember correctly) are not period. I was wondering >what sort of cheeses are, and how we know. I looked this stuff up several years back, and came to the conclusion that there are several lines believed to go back to period, but that I couldn't readily find out why they believed them unchanged. The period or very close cheeses that I recall offhand still in use today are cream cheese, cottage cheese (but fresh, not aged), brie, and double gloucester. Cheers, -- Angharad/Terry From: kellogg at rohan.sdsu.edu (kellogg) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Period soft cheeses (was: Re: Is cheesecake period?) Date: 22 Oct 1996 17:12:26 GMT Organization: San Diego State University Computing Services Monica Cellio (mjc at telerama.lm.com) wrote: (attribution lost) wrote: : >Is cheesecake period? If so, when and where? : Cheese pies of various sorts are period, but not as sweets. The closest : thing I know of to dessert-grade cheese pies is from Digby (1669). The : closest approximation for the cheese is probably ricotta or farmer's cheese. : Cream cheese is modern. This thread aroused my curiousity, so I did some fairly extensive web searches. Cream cheese does seem to be an American original. Most cheese websites claim a great antiquity for cottage cheese, unfortunately without any references. The one soft cheese that I seem to have found a solid period reference to is ricotta. The Sugarplums...All About Cheese site at <URL: http://www.sugarplums.com/ fieryfeature/c.html> shows a print of a painting entitled "The Ricotta Eaters" by one Vincenzo Campi, who is listed as having lived between 1525 and 1591. Anyone know anything else about this painting or artist? Avenel Kellough From: L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt <liontamr at postoffice.ptd.net> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 07:11:23 -0500 (CDT) Subject: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #78 About farmers cheese: What I can buy commercially that is called Farmer's Cheese is nothing more than what is called "Green Cheese" or unripened, pressed curds in our historical time frame. If you break it apart in your fingers you can clearly see that a large curd was allowed to form. It was salted, pressed (whey removed to make it more solid) and then sliced into a brick, wrapped, and sold as farmer's cheese. These cheeses are probably the closest to what we can buy that is similar to what most period recipes for "cheese tarts" are made of, if somewhat drier. The cheese tartes or pies in my experience were supposed to be lumpy, although you can see that this cheese breaks apart very easily. I make my own curds with milk from Jersey cows. It is far, far superior. Now, what I grew up calling Farmer's cheese is something different. We also called it Cup Cheese, and was in essence a strong smelling liquid cheese sold in cups or tubs (no rind visible), and roughly had the consistency of that children's play thing, Slime, although it was clear- to faint yellow. (PLEASE, no jokes about bodily excreta). It's a Pennsylvania Dutch (Or Amish) delicacy, and deservedly so if you like stinky cheese. Anyone from Lancaster, PA out there who could get me a recipe would be rewarded with my undying thanks! I would appreciate a private e-mail or post of the cheese goo recipe. I have been waivering for months now over fresh cheese with fine herbs or "savory toasted cheese" (not my recipe--the brie version, but I havn't gotten my hands on the recipe yet) for a feast. I much prefer my own cheeses, because they're richer and have far more character and flavor than bought cheese. Must be the unpasteurized, fresh Jersey Cow milk, cream and all. Aoife From: Stephen Bloch <sbloch at adl15.adelphi.edu> Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 14:20:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: SC - Re: sca-cooks: viking's pies Allison wrote: > Norse Pies, from the James Prescott translation > > Take cooked meat chopped very small, pine nut paste, currants, harvest > cheese crumbled very small, a bit of sugar and a little salt. > > That's the entire recipe. Is it Norse, you Vikings out there? > > I usually use farmer's cheese when harvest cheese is called for, but I'm > now wondering if that's the wrong assumption. Cheeses were made in late > Spring, after the calves/kids/lambs/??? were weaned, and you had some > rennet from a calf stomach handy. By Autumn, how much would such a > cheese ripen? Enough to crumble? ... I'm not a cheese expert -- I'm sure Gideanus will have something to say on this -- but the last time we made Norse Pies, we used Roquefort, a more-or-less wild guess based on the words "crumbled" and "rich" (which apparently doesn't appear in the Prescott translation). I'm not fond of blue cheeses, but it worked pretty well. mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib Stephen Bloch sbloch at panther.adelphi.edu http://www.adelphi.edu/~sbloch/ Math/CS Dept, Adelphi University From: Uduido at aol.com Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 10:47:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: SC - Yolks vs whites << the cheesecake called sambucade in the Forme of Cury uses egg whites and a curd cheese, which could easily be of the low-fat variety. >> If you do "substitute" low or non-fat cheeses in a recipe, please experiment ahead of time. The melting/cooking consistencies of several of these products are granular rather than meted and creamy after heating. Lord Ras From: Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy at abel.MATH.HARVARD.EDU> Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 14:55:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: SC - Yolks vs whites If you do "substitute" low or non-fat cheesesw in a recipe, please experiment ahead of time. The melting/cooking consistencies of several of these products are granular rather than meted and creamy after heating. Indeed. In fact, I have found that very few of them work. Consider, for example, that fat free cream cheeses tend to "air harden" when left out. They dry into a rather unattractive plastic flake. Still just as tasty, but really yucky looking. (For a fast example, pour some honey on a piece of bread that was covered in fat free cream cheese... and it will obligingly dessicate in front of your eyes.) Tibor From: JTRbear at aol.com Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 21:10:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: SC - Yolks vs whites Tillamook makes a reduced fat cheddar that works fine in chees sauces and melts pretty well straight. Jean-Philipe Lours From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 21:48:15 -0400 Subject: Re: SC - Cheese recipes Kerridwen wrote: > I am looking for a starting place for recipes for period cheeses. I am > willing to do the research but would appreciate a nudge in the right > direction. Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think you'll find very many recipes for making cheeses in sources considered classically period, unless they're non-English sources I haven't seen translated yet, which is possible. There are a few recipes for things like chinches, junket, and lait larde which are for various curd foods or "whitmeats" in the 14th-15th-century English repertoire (ex. The Forme of Cury, etc.). One of the problems you'll encounter is that cheeses either tended to be made on small farms by presumably illiterate farmers, or at monasteries whose records became sparse after their dissolution in the 15th century or so. Detailed descriptions of the cheesemaking process just don't seem to proliferate. What you WILL find are a few Roman recipes, both, I believe, in Cato the Elder's book on Agriculture, which would be approximately 3rd century B.C., and Columella's De Re Rustica, which is a similar book from around the second century C.E.. You might also try Pliny the Elder's Historia Naturalis, wherein are descriptions of the process for making things like Vestine Cheese, if I remember correctly. The dates I mention are a bit iffy, since I'm working from memory here. Also, you'll find some late and post-period sources in English. They include Bartholomew Dowe's "Dairy Book for Good Housewives" (1588) Elinor Fettiplace's Receipt Book (~1604), Sir Hugh Plat's "Delightes for Ladies" (1609), Gervase Markham's "The English Housewife" (~1615), and "The Closet of the Eminently Learned Sir Kenelm Digby, Knight, Opened" (~1669). Fettiplace only gives recipes for fresh soft cheeses, while the others go further into the process of making aged cheeses. People researching this topic seem to have an innate desire to discover that their favorite modern cheese is found in period. Almost without exception, this doesn't appear to be the case. There are quite a few cases where period cheeses from, and named for, a given region, bear little resemblance to modern cheeses from the same area, with the same name. Good sources for information on ancient-vs.-modern cheese are C. Anne Wilson's "Food and Drink in Britain", and, Heaven help me for saying so, the Larousse Gastronomique, which, as I have frequently said, is pretty much reliable only where French foods are concerned. G. Tacitus Adamantius From: L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt <liontamr at postoffice.ptd.net> Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 07:16:35 -0500 (CDT) Subject: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #135 That Cheesy Guy, Adamantius wrote :^D >What you WILL find are a few Roman recipes, both, I believe, in Cato the >Elder's book on Agriculture, which would be approximately 3rd century >B.C., and Columella's De Re Rustica, which is a similar book from around >the second century C.E.. You might also try Pliny the Elder's Historia >Naturalis, wherein are descriptions of the process for making things >like Vestine Cheese, if I remember correctly. The dates I mention are a >bit iffy, since I'm working from memory here. > >Also, you'll find some late and post-period sources in English. They >include Bartholomew Dowe's "Dairy Book for Good Housewives" (1588) >Elinor Fettiplace's Receipt Book (~1604), Sir Hugh Plat's "Delightes >for Ladies" (1609), Gervase Markham's "The English Housewife" (~1615), >and "The Closet of the Eminently Learned Sir Kenelm Digby, Knight, >Opened" (~1669). Fettiplace only gives recipes for fresh soft cheeses, >while the others go further into the process of making aged cheeses. > >People researching this topic seem to have an innate desire to discover >that their favorite modern cheese is found in period. Almost without >exception, this doesn't appear to be the case. There are quite a few >cases where period cheeses from, and named for, a given region, bear >little resemblance to modern cheeses from the same area, with the same >name. What we do know, however, is that similar cheeses do appear in period (sorry to confuse). Anecdotal evidence suggests that strong cheese, mild cheese, gooey cheese, dry cheese, poor quality cheese, high quality cheese, curds, and Whig houses (where they sold the whey much like a coffee bar of today. There's no accounting for tastes!) all were common. You probably will not find colored cheeses, but you can find fancy-shaped cheeses and "similated" cheese from almond milk. And here is another post-period but probably accurate place to look (it's my hobby, too): Lady Castlehill's Receipt Book: 1976, Molendinar Press, Glasgow copyright Haymish Whyte. This is really a cook-book manuscript disguised as a coffee table book. Some punctuation has been changed to make sense to a modern non-sca reader. Otherwise, it's faithful. It is probably current with the OOP Martha Washington, but gives a great recipe for slip-coat cheese. Also try: Mrs. McClintock's Receipt book for cookery and Pastry work: Ed. Isabail MacCloud, Scotland's first published cook book from the late 16th early 17th century, and the stats are,going from memory: Edinburough University Press, sometime in the 80's. I was fortunate enough to have the opportunity to teach a cheese-making class about three years ago in a kitchen that was a Jr. High teaching kitchen....had the mirrors over the stove, etc. I was delighted to see the reaction to the process of hardening the curds. The class actually gasped when the curd seperated from the whey and I stuck my spoon into a pot of what looked like milk and was actually a huge solid lump floating in a clear liquid! It still makes me chuckle, thinking about it. That's Alchemy at it's finest! Aoife From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 10:20:07 -0400 Subject: Re: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #135 Aoife wrote back at me, who'd previously pontificated: > What we do know, however, is that similar cheeses do appear in period (sorry > to confuse). Anecdotal evidence suggests that strong cheese, mild cheese, > gooey cheese, dry cheese, poor quality cheese, high quality cheese, curds, > and Whig houses (where they sold the whey much like a coffee bar of today. > There's no accounting for tastes!) all were common. You probably will not > find colored cheeses, but you can find fancy-shaped cheeses and "similated" > cheese from almond milk. Yuppo! Cheese is cheese, and each has some variant on the qualities other cheeses have, so this isn't surprising. True that anecdotal evidence indicates that there were cheeses coated with mold or a dry rind, etc. My point was only that just because a recipe calls for Brie, it doesn't necessarily follow that modern runny Brie with a white rind is what is being referred to. I remember reading that Roquefort, for example, is perfectly well-known in period France. The catch is that it had no blue veins, but, if I remember the statement correctly, had a moldy white rind like the modern Brie or Camembert. It may be that some local dairy person picked an opportune (or inopportune, depending on your POV) moment to scald the wooden equipment, killing the "official" Roquefort mold, leaving room for the little penicillium buggers we know and love today to proliferate and become the new "official" mold. Adamantius From: nweders at mail.utexas.edu (ND Wederstrandt) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 08:06:26 -0500 (CDT) Subject: SC - Soap Just taking the Good Huswife's Jewel back to the library so I have it with me: To make good sope. <snip> Also is the tidbit to make cheese yellow you must add Saffron. Clare R. St. John From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 11:19:58 -0400 Subject: Re: SC - coloring cheese? ND Wederstrandt wrote: > I didn't think so either... I mean I knew they colored cheese but didn't > know everything they used... when I pulled the sope recipe this morning > from Good Huswife's Jewel(1596) I saw the note on a different page stuck in > the middle of how to preserve apples and what makes a good pig. It makes > sense since vast quantities of saffron were grown around Saffron-on-Waldon > (hence the name) I make soft cheese so next time I make some I'm going to > try it. I haven't tried marigolds either but will try a batch with that as > coloring. Does anyone else know what coloring agents were used? > > Clare St. John Well, various green leaves, primarily sage and parsley, are known to have added both flavor and color to soft cheeses eaten fairly fresh. This may have arisen as a side effect of using herbs to curdle the milk (sage and nettle tops seem to be the standard). Markham (Again! Oy! [Slaps forehead]) calls for saffron to be added to the peculiar mixture he says should be used to "run" your milk into curds. Another thing to consider is that for aged cheeses, they tend to become fairly yellowish-brown as they become drier, with the ratio of fat to total mass becoming higher. Adamantius From: Gretchen M Beck <grm+ at andrew.cmu.edu> Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 12:50:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: SC - Cheese recipes There is a very early period cheese recipe in Lucius Junius Modratus Columella, On Agriculture, book VII, section VIII. My impression is that this was written sometime after the Caesars but sometime before the fall of Rome--I may be wrong on this, and it may be earlier. According to the Pittcat (University of Pittsburgh Library), ol' Lucius had an Italian translator in the 15th C, as well as a German one. toodles, margaret From: jodi_smith at juno.com (Jodi N Smith) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 17:50:35 EDT Subject: Re: Fwd: SC - Goat Cheese I have entered goat-milk cheese in Arts & Sciences competitions, with good results. My documentation for the use of goats in making cheese comes from: Larousse Gastronomique, by Prosper Montagne (translated by Nina Froud and a bunch of other people), Crown Publishers, New York 1961 Food in History, by Reay Tannahill, Stein & Day, New York 1973 It also seems like several of the books about all the various kinds of cheeses have chapters on the history of cheeses, and sometimes the history of particular varieties of cheese. Good Luck! Mistress Drahomira, Unser Hafen, Outlands From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 07:38:29 -0400 Subject: Re: SC - Goat Cheese Sharon L. Harrett wrote: > Does anyone have documentation for goats' milk cheese in period? I have some > secondary for Classical Greece and Rome, but that's not enough. I seem to > remember seeing an article on the history of cheeses in a magazine (possibly > Food &Wine) but can't find it. I have a friens who raises goats and makes > wonderful cheese, and she would like to enter it in Art-Sci, but can't find > anything reliable for dates and places. Help please? There are pretty detailed instructions for making sheep's and goat's-milk cheeses in Columella's book on husbandry (De Rustica?) which is 1st-2nd century C.E., and they are referred to in the various Tacuinum Sanitatis manuscripts, which are 14th century. The process is not described in the medieval manuscripts, but Columella's process is still more or less what is used today, and it is reasonable to assume the same thing was done in the middle ages. Adamantius Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:08:42 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Culinary A&S Entries Mark Harris wrote: > I'd be interested in hearing more about the dry, smoked sausage and the > cheese. Did you make these from the raw materials? recipes? The sausage was as close as I could get to the Polonian Sawsedge in Sir Hugh Plat's "Delighted for Ladies" (c. 1609), made following the recipe pretty closely. It is, in fact, a kielbasa. As for the cheese, it was an English Slipcote, so called because it is a pretty soft cheese inside a rind of the dried outermost layer, rather than a mold coating. You can give it a squeeze, and the coat slips off. Recipes for this are found in numerous sources, ranging from the Penn Family receipt book to Kenelm Digby to Martha Washington's Cookery Book. I neither slaughtered the hog nor milked the cow, but otherwise did my best ; ). > I don't remember the article, but I will be trying to find it in my not > very well organised TIs, so you can tell me just to go there. But I would > like to hear any elaborations or corrections. Apart from the omission of a good chunk of the notes and bibliography (the article was pretty long, are you surprised ; ) ? ), there isn't too much I would add if I were to write it over again. You can find it on the Web, now that I think of it, on the Ostgardrian Web pages at: http://www.adelphi.edu/~sbloch/sca/cooking/ppb.html Adamantius From: marilyn traber <margali at 99main.com> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: butter in period? Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 12:48:41 -0400 XSimmons wrote: > Know what you can make from all that skimmed milk, after you've > separated off the cream? Cottage cheese! ("Yum, yum," cried all the > dieters.) > > Just for grins, cottage cheese is also period. Curds [14c] and whey > [before 12c] (solids and liquid) form in the cheese-making process, > which generally involves enzymes from a calf's stomach. (Still like > rennet custard, regardless of the origin of the rennet!) > > Curds are rich in casein, a protein that also helped make milk-paint > work (and is now used in making plastics.) Whey is high in lactose, > vitamins, and minerals, and contains some fat. Perhaps that is why > curds and whey are mentioned as food for children. (Imagine having > cottage cheese for breakfast, instead of "frosty choco-nut sugar > crunch > bomb" cereals!) > > Ly Meara al-Isfahani (who likes her curds and whey with cinnamon and > honey) I got into cheesemaking not because I recreate stuff, but I grew up near a cheese factory and grew up eating chese curds-not in the form of cottge cheese, but in the form of pre cheese. In the cheddaraing process[and other forms of solid cheese] the curds forming the cheese are drained and compressed. You can actually do this with cottage cheese of you know what you are doing. Curds like this are essentially unripened uncompressed "green" cheddar. A "green" cheese isnt necessarily a green colored cheese, but the compressed cake of cheese that the "grain" pattern of the curds is still visible. The medievals would also batter and fry these curds sort of like our mozzarella sticks. Well, I have the taste for curds, and make them just for the "precheese" With the whey left over after the curds precipitate out, you make a condenses whey spread by gently heating the whey til almost all of the water is gone, and you have a rich velvety lightly carmel colored goo that is high in vitamins. margali Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 11:46:11 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #262 ND Wederstrandt wrote: > I was at the wonderful Central Market and found some cheese with Nettles in > it. I was tempted to get it to try but didn't have enough cash. I also > read that nettles can be used for cheesemaking as well as being a fiber and > dye plant. The Vikings were very adept at using it. > > Clare St. John Yep. Especially after they invaded Scotland and Ireland... Actually, though, there are recipes for nettle cheese in Columella, Markham, and Digby (howzzat for a law firm?), I believe. Adamantius Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:43:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy at abel.MATH.HARVARD.EDU> Subject: Re: Re- SC - Hierarchy-Cathe I love a coincidence! This is from the "barely-1-day-old" letter from Laurel Queen of Arms. Tibor From the section on accepted arms: Michael Houlihan. Badge. Vert, a wedge of Emmental cheese reversed Or. <Snip> Emmental is the correct name for what is sold as Swiss cheese in the United States. It is a period cheese, which was sold in wheels and blocks. Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 15:05:04 -0500 From: L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt <liontamr at ptd.net> Subject: SC - oat recipe <snip> While these are not documented recipes, Cheese and other food was potted in late period, and oatcakes are so simple to make that I am unaware of an historical example of their recipe, although I have read accounts of their existence. Oatcakes, Potted Stilton adapted from Farmhouse Cookery...Recipes from the Country kitchen, Reader's Digest, London 1980. <snip> Potted Stilton (or any other strong flavored cheese): 1 lb. mellow Stilton or other cheese, crumbled or grated 4 oz butter, unsalted, at room temp. 1/2 tsp mace 1 tsp grainy prepared mustard clarified butter Combine all the ingredients together except the clarified butter and mash very well to incorporate. pack tightly into a crock and seal with clarified butter. if desired, decorate the surface with carrot flowers, herb leaves, etc.. and pour on another fine layer of clarified butter to seal. Chill. Serve cold, with oatcakes. And that, folks, is what makes Oats an Artform. Aoife Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 20:02:06 -0500 From: L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt <liontamr at ptd.net> Subject: SC - Fromage Bleau >Ill have to find my reference books, but essentially, the varietys of >cheese relate to the local products, if memory serves-cheddar comes from >cheddar, meunster comes from meunster, parmigian from parma, you get the >drift. I do know that the blue mold in blue cheese is proprietary to >that one cavey section of france, and unless it comes from there, it is >only 'blue cheese'. > >margali Actually, the blue culture in Roquefort is made from moldy bread crumbs that the curds are sifted through prior to being packed in the vate. Aoife Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:36:02 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Cheddar James and/or Nancy Gilly wrote: > It's been said several times on this list that cheddar cheese is not period, > because the cheddaring process wasn't invented until (I think) the 1700s. > What precisely is cheddaring? > > Alasdair mac Iain Hmmm. This is a tough one. The problem is that the process that cheddaring actually is, is different, and apparently older than, the processes that are sometimes _called_ cheddaring. Confused yet? All right. Cheddaring _is_ a process, which may or may not (with emphasis on the "not") have been developed in Cheddar, Somersetshire, England, of taking coagulated milk, allowing the mass to settle under the whey, with the aid of heat, cutting the firmed mass into blocks, and stacking them up on each other, allowing gravity to compress them for anywhere from a few minutes to two hours. This alters the casein filament structure, resulting in a change of the mass from a stack of blocks of "jellied" milk, to a stack of horizontal layers of long fibers, which can be shredded like mozzarella or "string" cheese. That is cheddaring. The stack is then ground in a mill into small grains called curds. Yes, I know we had curds, technically, quite a while ago, but what the hey...anyway, these curds are then made into cheese using various arcane techniques that I won't go into now. Another process that is sometimes, erroneously, referred to as cheddaring, is the production of Cheddar cheese using curds collected from a commune of different small dairy farms, which results in a very consistent and rather abundant (in Cheddar terms) product, without the variations from year to year that are commonly associated with wine production, but which are also part of the whole cheese thing. That process is believed to have originated in late 18th-, early 19th-century America. Also, cheddar is an early English example of a "cooked" cheese, where the coagulated milk, or the separated or cut curds are slowly warmed in their whey, to firm them up. The cheese recipes in, say, Kenelm Digby, don't include this process. Digby, by the way, refers to Cheshire, which is somewhat similar to Cheddar, and which also usually calls for the cooking process mentioned above. The question remains whether the Cheshire Digby refers to bears much resemblance to modern Cheshire, and whether it was cooked. As for Cheddar, cheese have been made there for _quite_ a long time, but it isn't clear how much pre-nineteenth century Cheddar cheese resembled the cheeses made in Cheddar (and several other places) today. It's a pretty safe bet that the deep yellow or orange cheddar found in the USA isn't very close to a period cheese that might have been made in Cheddar. There might be a coincidental similarity in flavor, but the color and the texture would be quite different. Adamantius Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 14:47:11 -0400 From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow) Subject: Re: SC - Problems of Thought.... Cheddar cheese *is* period, & I don't know where folks have gotten the idea that it isn't. "Cheddar, parish Sedgemoor district, county of Somerset, England...Cheddar cheese was first made there at or before the beginning of the 12th century and was aged in caves nearby... Cheddar is one of England's oldest cheeses. The original, so-called farmhouse variety remains in limited production in modern times. In the traditional method of cheddar manufacture, the firm curd is cut, or "cheddared," into small bits to drain the whey and then pressed firmly into cylinders...The cheese, a light orange-yellow in colour, is wrapped in thin muslin and coated with wax. It is aged a minimum of three to six months, preferably one and one-half to two years..." Encyc. Brit. The cottage industry of producing Cheddar cheese arose in the 16th century, and spread to N. America in the late 1700s. Cindy/Sincgiefu (who'd gladly walk a mile through the snow for a pound of aged Vermont sharp cheddar) renfrow at skylands.net http://www.alcasoft.com/renfrow/ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 15:43:59 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - sources >I am interested in doing research on period cheese making and dairying. >Does anyone have reccomendations for period sources about this. I am >looking for recipies, if possible, but anything would be interesting. >I have a copy of Menaigier de Paris, what others should I see? >Thank you!!! >Emmanuelle of Chenonceaux Here is a web site that just came to my attention. It is on Scottish cheesemaking. http://www.efr.hw.ac.uk/SDA/cheese1.html Bear Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:11:54 -0000 From: "Yeldham, Caroline S" <csy20688 at GlaxoWellcome.co.uk> Subject: RE: SC - herb cheese > I am interested in herb cheeses. I know that in Apicius there are a > couple of recipes that list herbs and other ingredients to mix with fresh > cheese before serving. However, I haven't found anything in later period > books. Has anyone seen any period cook books that talk about flavoring > cheeses with herbs? > > Clarissa C Anne Wilson, in 'Food and Drink in Britain' talks about spermsye cheeses, flavoured with herb juices, and I'd love more information on this, if anyone can help. BTW I had a look in Stefan's Floregium in the cheese sections, and noticed there was no mention of the 'crumbly' cheeses which are common here in the UK, such as Wensleydale, Lancashire and Cheshire cheeses. As 'cheddared' cheeses are OOP for me, these are the type I use commonly as replacements. They are keeping cheeses, but have a soft, crumbly texture closer to curd texture, usually white in colour. Double Gloucester is much closer to cheddar in texture than these cheese (and I speak as someone from Gloucester!). I'm puzzled about this, don't you have them in the States? Caroline Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 11:14:54 -0500 From: maddie teller-kook <meadhbh at io.com> Subject: Re: SC - Tastes of Britain Class Notes Christine A Seelye-King wrote: > Samit - Curds with Garlic - Early Period, "A Celtic Feast". > Large curd cottage cheese was drained, and then mixed with butter, sour > cream, garlic, and chervil. Used as a spread on Rye Bread. Very yummy > (and I hate cottage cheese), kind of a lumpy cheese spread. I love this recipe. I usually make it with farmers cheese which has a small curd and doesn't need to be drained.. and the results are wonderful... you might want to try it. Also, have done this with a homemade fresh curd cheese with great results. Meadhbh Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:13:46 -0500 From: Brian Songy <bxs3829 at usl.edu> Subject: SC - cheese I've lurked here for several months on the sca-cooks list, not out of shyness, but out of a feeling that I had little to contribute - - I'm very new to the SCA. But this week, I decided that I would put forth a best effort to come-up with something of interest, even if it was based upon secondary sources (like the internet). Therefore I present, for your entertainment, criticism, amusement and use the following chart of cheeses: Type of Cheese Date of Earliest Reference Reference Feta {1184BC} [1] Sbrinz "...Roman times..." [6] Romano "...since the time of Christ..." [6] Cantal "...to the time of the Gauls..." [6] Munster 8th Century [6] Gorgonzola 879AD/11th century [1], [6] Roquefort 1070AD/"was the favorite cheese [1], [6] of Charlemagne and King Charles VI" Wensleydale {1150AD} [4] Grana 1200AD/13th Century [1], [6] Fontina 13th Century; "favorite of the [6] Duke of Savoy" Beaufort {1267AD} [2] Emmental(aka "Swiss") {1267AD} [2] Comte {1267AD} [2] Cheddar 1500AD [1] Parmesan 1579AD/{1200AD-1300AD} [1], [3] Gouda 1697AD [1] Gloucester 1697AD [1] Stilton 1785AD [1] Camembert 1791AD [1], [5] {} signifies I consider that the date is dubious. / two dates reported Sources: [1] http://www.efr.hw.ac.uk/SDA/book1.html [2] http://www.franceway.com/cheese/history.htm [3] http://www.parmigiano-reggiano.it/estoria.htm [4] http://www.wensleydale-creamery.co.uk/history.htm [5] http://www.camembert-country.com/cwp/cam_hise.htm and http://www.cheese-gourmet.com/ [6] http://wgx.com/cheesenet/wci/ Brian of Trollfen Bxs3829 at usl.edu Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:42:09 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: SC - RE: cheese You might wish to add: Cheshire 54BC "Julius Caesar discovers the Britons making..." Gruyere 1722 "introduced into France" Referenced in Trager, James, The Food Chronology. You can also add Trager to the references for Camembert and Roquefort. The dates look reasonably accurate from a couple minor forays into cheese history, but I would consider them working dates, subject to change when confronted with better evidence. I'll tuck your list into the notebook for future reference. Bear Subject: Brie cheese Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 23:30:11 From: Lady Lisette <starkiller at picknowl.com.au> To: stefan at texas.net Phew! It took a while, but I finally dug out the documentation for Brie in period. The source, is of all places, the "Family Circle Recipe Encyclopedia", Editor Susan Tomnay, Murdoch Books, North Sydney Australia, 1995. Here is the quote. "BRIE A soft creamy-yellow whole cow's milk cheese with a thin, white edible skin. It is aged from the outside in by moulds and bacteria that grow on the rind. Brie is made in a large flat wheel shape and is cut into wedges for serving. The cheese has been made since the 8th century when Charlemagne ate it at the priory of Reuil-en-Brie and pronounced it 'one of the most marvelous of foods.'" pg58. Lydie Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 12:37:04 EST From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Cheese chart? Don't forget to add Ricotta which is described in Platina. Ras Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:25:08 SAST-2 From: "Ian van Tets" <ivantets at botzoo.uct.ac.za> Subject: SC - brie Dee, if you liked baked brie, I wonder if you would like losyns? Fomre of Cury #88: Take good broth and do it in an erthen pot. Take flour of payndemayn and make therof past with water, and make therof thynne foyles as paper with a roller, drye it harde and seeth it in broth. Take cheese ruayn grated and lay it in disshes with powdour douce, and lay theron loseyns isode as hoole as thou myght, and above powdour and chese; and so twyse or thryse, and serue it forth. I got this out of Maggie Black's book too (this was the first one that made me think all might not be well with her redactions). She states at the front of one of her other books that cheese ruayn (rewain, etc.) is brie (substantiation, anyone??) but somehow ignores that for this recipe. Doubtless if you don't have your own pet recipe for powder douce dozens of people on the list will oblige. Cairistiona Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 11:53:18 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Toasting salamander. Christina Nevin wrote: > Speaking of toasting, I got to see an interesting piece of kitchen equipment > in action on TV this weekend. The BBC did a docu on Hampton Court Palace, > including a brief piece showing re-enactors in the kitchen. They showed a > 'salamander', basically a flat iron disk with a very long handle, which was > shoved in the coals to heat up, and then used mostly to heat cheese on top > of bread. A medieval toastie maker the housekeeper said (erm, yes, well...). > I'm not sure how accurate this is, as I didn't agree with some of the other > stuff they said about food of the time. Has anyone seen pictures of this > equipment in use? Not in use, no, but I seem to recall seeing recipes for things like Cambridge Burnt Cream (a.k.a. Creme Brulee) which describe getting the salsmander red hot and holding it close to the surface of the sugared cream, and moving it around a bit to get an even brown. This all has to do with the fact that it was impossible, until the advent of gas ovens with broilers, to get radiant heat directly on _top_ of foods (with possible exceptions like tandoor ovens), without a heat-transferring "middleman" like the red-hot salamander. As for toasted cheese being made with a salamander, I believe this practice post-dates period, probably coming into being in the 18th-19th centuries when things like Mornay Sauce(more or less cheesy bechamel) became common, and thse sauces were and are frequently glazed under a broiler or salamander. There are descriptions of cheese being toasted in England and Wales, as I recall, in late or early-post-period (perhaps Harrison's "Description of England"???) and the process generally involves roasting the cheese on an inclined board propped up near the fire: when the butterfat leaked out enough to cause the cheese slice to begin to slide down the board, by which time it was also brown and bubbly, it was quickly transferred onto buttered (and sometimes mustarded) toast. I believe I've seen this in Wilson's "Food and Drink in Britain". Adamantius stgardr, East Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 12:24:44 -0800 From: "James L. Matterer" <jlmatterer at labyrinth.net> Subject: Re: SC - Toasting salamander. > There are descriptions of cheese being toasted in England and Wales, as > I recall, in late or early-post-period (perhaps Harrison's "Description > of England"???) and the process generally involves roasting the cheese > on an inclined board propped up near the fire: when the butterfat leaked > out enough to cause the cheese slice to begin to slide down the board, > by which time it was also brown and bubbly, it was quickly transferred > onto buttered (and sometimes mustarded) toast. I believe I've seen this > in Wilson's "Food and Drink in Britain". In "The Art of Cookery in the Middle Ages," Terence Scully gives this recipe from The Neapolitan Collection ( MS Buhler 19 in the Pierpont Morgan Library): "Crostata de caso, pane, etc. Crusty Cheese, Bread, etc. Get bread, remove the crust, slice it thin and toast it on the fire to colour it, then coat the slices with fresh butter and put sugar and cinnamon on top, then slices of creamy cheese, then sugar and cinnamon; then put the slices in a tort pan on the coals with its lid on and coals on top; when the cheese has melted, serve it quickly." A quick glance through Scully didn't reveal a date for the Neapolitan Collection, but it appears to be late Medieval Italian. Perhaps someone else could help in dating this MS? Huen Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:10:56 -0500 From: Marilyn Traber <margali at 99main.com> Subject: Re: SC - salted cheese? > Fish and ham I understand, but cheese? I realize salt is used in making > cheese, but the impression I get from this is of salt used to preserve > cheese for extended periods. Am I reading too much into this or missing > some basic cheesy knowledge and now giving Margali the cheesemaker a > good laugh behind her hand? > > curiouser and curiouser was, Puck yep, Puck....I can always use a good laugh! You use salt not just for taste, but to draw out more whey [the water content encourages the growth of nasties, hence dried, salted foods] but some milks [goat and sheep being the worst culprits] seem to enhance the salty taste more than cows milk. For 1 lb of cheese made in the chedder fashion [that we are going to take to an event without refrigeration] i use a good 2 tbsp of flake salt and it is not what people would call particularly salty[unlike some navy personnel I can mention..] margali Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 15:11:56 -0800 From: "James L. Matterer" <jlmatterer at labyrinth.net> Subject: Re: SC - Bread and Circuses > And, FWIW, the whole cheese/bread/butter thing at the beginning of a > meal seems to be way off prevailing medieval European medical theory > (dairy products, especially cheeses and cheese dishes, would normally be > served at or near the end of the meal to close the chest and stomach up > while digesting, and I've seen no evidence of butter being spread on > bread in medieval Europe, and some evidence to suggest it was not). > > Adamantius As for cheese, John Russell (Boke of Nurtute) says that it is "hard cheese" that should be restricted to the end of the meal, not all cheeses or dairy products. In fact, he recommends that cheese be served with the very first items of a dinner. Before dinner Russel says you should serve: "Good sone, alle maner frute that longethe for seson of the yere, Fygges, reysons, almaundes, dates, butur, chese, nottus, apples & pere." After dinner should be: "Aftur mete, peeres, nottys, strawberies, wyneberies, and hardcheese." Furnivall (editor of Boke of Nurture) says that the cheese used in the beginning may be butter-cheese, milk-cheese, or cream-cheese, as contrasted with hardcheese. Butter was considered a separate item. Huen - -- A Boke of Gode Cookery http://www.labs.net/dmccormick/huen.htm Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:48:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Robin Carrollmann <harper at idt.net> Subject: Re: SC - Roasted garlic was my latest feast > << and then grate good cheese of Aragon >> > > What would be a modern equivalent of this Aragon Cheese? Aragon cheese is still made in Spain. I do not know if the modern version is the same as it was in period. I have never tasted it, so I'm not sure what more commonly found cheeses might be used as a substitute. Here's a description, taken from www.cheese.com, if it helps: Aragon Description: Made by curdling milk with rennet or thistle-flower extract for 40 minutes at 95 degrees F. Curd is cut into small bits, drained, molded and pressed by hand. Aragon ripens for a week in a controlled humid environment. This cheese is sometimes made with a mixture of ewe's and goat's milk. Country: Spain Milk: ewe and goat milk Texture: semi-hard > Rosalyn MacGregor > (Pattie Rayl) Brighid Robin Carroll-Mann Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 15:42:35 -0400 From: Christine A Seelye-King <mermayde at juno.com> Subject: SC - Fw: [TY] Say Cheese Some interesting thoughts on cheese from the Tavern Yard. - --------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Mark Mettler <mettler at bulloch.net> To: <TY at reashelm.ce.utk.edu> Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 15:05:45 -0400 Subject: [TY] Say Cheese First: What is Roquefort Cheese: It is made by hand using the milk of the famous Lacaune Sheep from the Causses region of Southern France. The cheese is aged in the limestone caves of Combalou, where the combination of humidity, temperature and air flow are just right. The caves also contain the mold, Penicillium roqueforti, which are responsible for the cheese's blue vein. Second: Who and When: Once upon a time a young shepherd was guarding his herd of ewes (sheep) near the "Grotte (caves) du Combalou", a large cliff face that dominates the village of Roquefort-sur-Soulzon. He was just about to prepare his midday meal when he saw in the middle distance a young lady. She appeared to be remarkably beautiful. Fascinated, he decided to follow her. He left his dog to look after the herd and hid his lunch consisting of bread ("pain de seigle", this is bread made from 60/70 percent rye flour and 40/30 percent wheat flour) and cheese (curd from ewe's milk) in the cool, damp rocks of the "grotte". The chase was on. Unhappily, history relates that our shepherd never found the young goddess. He returned to his herd, tired, hungry and disappointed. In his absence the bread had decomposed and given the cheese streaks of blue veins. He was to hungry to ask himself what had happened ; all he knew was that the taste was remarkable. It did not take long for him to share the mystery with his fellow herdsmen. Within a short time many of the " grottes" had been converted into "cabanes en bois"(oak planks were built in the interior of the grottes where the cheeses were left to ripen). The word "cabanes" is still with us today as the people that work in the cellars are called "cabaniers." That is the legend of how Roquefort cheese was born. This exquisite alchemy is the product of milk, bread, air and time. In the words of Curnonsky, a well known Parisian gastronome, "the Roquefort is the son of the mountains and the wind." Over centuries the center of Roquefort cheese making has always been Roquefort-sur- Soulzon a village perched on the side of cliff of Causse du Larzac, between Millau and Saint-Affrique, some 700 kilometers south of Paris. And now a word from the Cheese Book on cheese as a whole: Most authorities consider that cheese was first made in the Middle East. The earliest type was a form of sour milk which came into being when it was discovered that domesticated animals could be milked. A legendary story has it that cheese was 'discovered' by an unknown Arab nomad. He is said to have filled a saddlebag with milk to sustain him on a journey across the desert by horse. After several hours riding he stopped to quench his thirst, only to find that the milk had separated into a pale watery liquid and solid white lumps. Because the saddlebag, which was made from the stomach of a young animal, contained a coagulating enzyme known as rennin, the milk had been effectively separated into curds and whey by the combination of the rennin, the hot sun and the galloping motions of the horse. The nomad, unconcerned with technical details, found the whey drinkable and the curds edible. Cheese was known to the ancient Sumerians four thousand years before the birth of Christ. The ancient Greeks credited Aristaeus, a son of Apollo and Cyrene, with its discovery; it is mentioned in the Old Testament. In the Roman era cheese really came into its own. Cheesemaking was done with skill and knowledge and reached a high standard. By this time the ripening process had been developed and it was known that various treatments and conditions under storage resulted in different flavours and characteristics. The larger Roman houses had a separate cheese kitchen, the caseale, and also special areas where cheese could be matured. In large towns home-made cheese could be taken to a special centre to be smoked. Cheese was served on the tables of the nobility and travelled to the far corners of the Roman Empire as a regular part of the rations of the legions. During the Middle Ages, monks became innovators and developers and itis to them we owe many of the classic varieties of cheese marketed today. During the Renaissance period cheese suffered a drop in popularity, being considered unhealthy, but it regained favour by the nineteenth century, the period that saw the start of the move from farm to factory production. Adapted from "The Cheese Book," by Richard Widcome. Chartwell Books (Seacaucus, NJ), 1978. - -- Gryffri de Newmarch Chronicler of Forth Castle - http://www2.gasou.edu/SCA/chronicler of the Southern Creative Anachronists - http://www2.gasou.edu/SCA Keeper of the Book - http://www2.gasou.edu/SCA/newmarchbook Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 19:44:28 EDT From: LadyAletha at aol.com Subject: SC - yellow cheese >and that the ubiquitous cheddar worked well, though the orange stuff >was a bit agregious (the yellow food coloring being added fairly recently >to duplicate the effects of the cow eating a lot of real grass) actually, an acquaintance of mine with an interest in historical cheeses will wax quite eloquent about how dying cheese yellow/orange is in fact period--15th cen, I think he can document it to. The color indicates a higher cream content...so of course, people started faking it to make their cheese look "richer." I'll ask him to send me the documentation if anyone would like, though it may take a bit. Alethea Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 20:44:40 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - yellow cheese LadyAletha at aol.com wrote: > >and that the ubiquitous cheddar worked well, though the orange stuff > >was a bit agregious (the yellow food coloring being added fairly recently > >to duplicate the effects of the cow eating a lot of real grass) > > acually, an aquaintence of mine with an interest in historical cheeses will > wax quite eloquent about how dying cheese yellow/orange is in fact > period--15th cen, I think he can document it to. The color indicates a > higher cream content...so of course, people started faking it to make their > cheese look "richer." I'll ask him to send me the documetation if anyone > would like, though it may take a bit. > > Alethea In theory, yes, it does indicate a higher cream content, but it also depends largely on what the cow has been eating. Consider the snow-white butter made outside Rome, for example, or the fact that a many full-cream cheeses are white. Some quite lean ones are yellow. In my own experience with making cheese, primarily the Digby slipcote cheese, it becomes more yellow as it ages. I guess as it dries out somewhat, the butterfat content overall does become higher. Another consideration: I believe Gervase Markham, in The English Hus-wife, provides us with a rather odd rennet/starter recipe, which contains egg yolks and saffron, to name a couple of the less orthodox ingredients. I assume this stuff would be pretty yellowish. Adamantius From: r19832345 at aol.com (R19832345) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Charlemagne's Cheese [long] Date: 05 Sep 1999 18:32:13 GMT whew.... I wish i had the time these days to do such detailed research...Bravo.... had you seen my list of dates/cheeses? Any comments? they would be appreciated, as this is but a page in a larger work I will eventually get back to completing one day. Origin/Usage: Middle east B.C./ Appenzell-Switzerland 742 A.D.> Asiago-Italy 1200 A.D.> Beaufort-Romans B.C.> Bellelaye(Tete de moine)-Switzerland 15th cent> Roquefort-France-Romans B.C.> Caciocavallo-Italy 13th cent?> Camembert-France 12th cent> Cantal-France Romans B.C.> Cheddar-Britian 15th cent> Cheshire- Britain 12th cent> Comte-France 13th cent> Cream cheese-unknown Ancient> Ennentaler-Switzerland 16th cent> Fontina-Italy 13th cent> Gammelost-Norway 1st cent> Gouda-Holland 13th cent> Gruyere-Switzerland 12th cent> Gruyere de comte-France 13th cent> Herve-Belgium 13th cent?> Limburger-Belgium 13th cent?> Livarot- France 13th cent> Maroilles-France 10th cent> Munster-France 13th cent?> Parmesan, grana, Lodigiano, Lombardo, Veneto, Bresciano, Grana Padano Emiliano and Parmigiano Reggiano-Italy 13th cent> Pont L'eveque-France (Angelot) 13th cent> Saint Nectaire-France 13th cent?> Sapsago-Switzerland 15th cent> Sbrinz-Switzerland- Romans B.C.> Stracchino(Piccante [sharp] and dolce [mild]) 12th cent>Vacherin Fribourgeois-Switzerland Ancient> Wensleydale- Britain 1066> Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 00:36:53 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Russian Black Bread Tollhase1 at aol.com wrote: > CmUaSrKgYaNlOiLES at 99main.com writes: > << take the leftover whey and simmer it until it is a thick > goo. about as simple as you can get! > margali >> > > What temperature, or does it matter. Most cheeses it does. "Simmer" generally denotes around 180 degrees Fahrenheit. Small bubbles rise to the surface, but it's less than a full, rolling boil. The point is to denature protein that hasn't already been curdled in the making of a previous cheese. In short, this seems to be a form of ricotta, the genuine version of which is re-cooked, as per its name. The difference would seem to be that Margali is instructing us to cook the whey until it boils away, or nearly so, as I believe is done with some Scandinavian cheeses like gjetost and mysost, while the name "skimmerkase" would suggest the cheese is skimmed off the top, as ricotta used to be. Adamantius Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 22:32:56 -0000 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" <nannar at isholf.is> Subject: Re: SC - Charlemagne's Cheese [long] > At any rate, he has either been an extremely uncritical user of > secondary sources that involved a great deal of invention, or he > has been an enthusiastic inventor himself (including the > invention of the quote attributed to Charlemagne). Well, neither story originates with Toussaint-Samat (who is a she, BTW, not a he). Larousse Gastronomique says in the entry for roquefort: "it was Charlemagnes favourite cheese", and in the entry for brie: "Brie appears to have been in existence in the time of Charlemagne, who is said to have eaten it at the priory of Rueil-en-Brie." Nanna Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 18:55:12 -0500 From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com> Subject: Re: SC - Charlemagne's Cheese [long] >Well, neither story originates with Toussaint-Samat (who is a she, BTW, not >a he). Larousse Gastronomique says in the entry for roquefort: "it was >Charlemagnes favourite cheese", and in the entry for brie: "Brie appears to >have been in existence in the time of Charlemagne, who is said to have eaten >it at the priory of Rueil-en-Brie." When did Toussaint-Samat write? Is it clear whether her book is earlier or later than the edition of the Larousse you are quoting? In any case, my impression is that the Larousse is quite unreliable on matters historical. Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 10:53:38 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Re: cheddar in beets recipe Ian Gourdon wrote: > >Regarding the recipe you posted it sounds good but what justification is > >there for the use of Cheddar cheese? Did this cheese exist at that time? -Ras > > Cheese Variety Year(AD) > -------------- -------- > Gorgonzola 879 > Roquefort 1070 > Grana 1200 > Cheddar 1500 > Parmesan 1579 > Gouda 1697 > Gloucester 1697 > Stilton 1785 > Camembert 1791 > > Data compiled from Scott (1986). We know a cheese made around/marketed from Cheddar existed at that time. We don't know what it was like, but I've recently had some uncooked (And un"cheddared") English cheddar that might be pretty close to what it was, and that was more like a hybrid Parmesan and aged Gouda. Adamantius Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:57:20 -0500 (EST) From: cclark at vicon.net Subject: Re: SC - Re: cheese question Lady Jehanne de Huguenin wrote: >surely you could interpret "semisoft cheese" as cottage cheese? ... I don't think so. Cottage cheese is a very soft unripened cheese. Muenster, Gouda and Roquefort are examples of semisoft cheeses. Brie is a soft ripened cheese. Cheddar and Swiss are hard. Parmesan is very hard. Alex Clark/Henry of Maldon Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 00:54:06 -0600 From: Stefan li Rous <stefan at texas.net> Subject: SC - Currant vodka cheese Angus replied to my comment on vegemite and cheeses at Central Market with: > <snip> > > I have yet to buy any of the vegemite. I'm afraid that with all the > > imported cheeses > > (including a Swedish one this last time that said it was the same as > > cheese > > made in the 15th century, except they added Vodka and a berry), > <snip> > Just out of curiousity, what's the name of the cheese ? Ok, I went and got the cheese out of the refrigerator this time. The main label says: "Vodka Currant" Semi-soft Prastost (I think the a has double dots over it) ,Aged over 12 months. Product of Sweden. The explantion on the label says: "Aged by Swedes since 1500 AD. this favorite Swedish tithe to their Priests is still as flavorful as back then - but now with a splash of Currant flavored vodka! The Priests savored nothing but the best!" The web address they give (I've seen more and more web addresses on food items) is: www.vodkacheese.com - -- Lord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas stefan at texas.net Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 19:15:51 -0900 From: Kerri Canepa <kerric at pobox.alaska.net> Subject: Re: SC - Late Fall/Early Winter Vegetables Henry wrote: >I haven't tried armoring them, though. What's a good cheese to use on parsnips? Hm. I don't know how authentic Gruyere is, but I like to use it with a variety of different things. I did armored turnips with Gruyere and also Tart for Ember Day. Both came out quite yummy. I have used Raclette and Tomme de Savoie and they would do really well for any recipe calling for "ripe" or "old" cheese. Both are rather on the bitey side without being overpowering. They also melt well when heated. For milder cheeses I've used Baita Friuli and Parmesan, besides Gruyere. I can't get fresh curds or cheeses here in Anchorage (it's making me seriously consider learning to make it myself) except Mozzarella which is fine except that the consistancy is too firm. Since we're on the topic of cheese, does anyone know where a cream cheese without stabilizers can be acquired? Kerri Cedrin Etainnighean, OL Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 13:18:40 -0500 From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net> Subject: Re: SC - 16th Century recipes a few questions. . . And it came to pass on 30 Jan 00,, that Varju at aol.com wrote: > I know that the "cheese" debate has occured on the list before, > but for the life of me I cannot remember if Parmesian was listed as one > of the period cheeses. Is Parmesan cheese period? > Noemi "Queso de Parma" (cheese from Parma) and "queso Parmesano rallado" (grated Parmesan cheese) appear in several 16th century Spanish recipes, if that's any help to you. How period it would be for German cooking, I don't know. Lady Brighid ni Chiarain Settmour Swamp, East (NJ) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 18:48:21 -0500 From: "Alderton, Philippa" <phlip at morganco.net> Subject: SC - Fw: [SCA-AE] Cheesemaking book Interesting information from the Aethelmark List. Thomas, are you aware of any other texts on cheesemaking pte-1600? Phlip Philippa Farrour Caer Frig Southeastern Ohio - -----Original Message----- From: Jakys the Cheesemonger <jazzmanian at myremarq.com> To: sca-aethelmearc at andrew