butter-msg – 1/10/08
Period butter. Making butter. Butter churns.
NOTE: See also these files: dairy-prod-msg, Honey-Butter-art, cheese-msg, cheesemaking-msg, Cheese-Making-art, cheesecake-msg, fresh-cheeses-msg, spreads-msg.
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NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).
Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: DDFr at Midway.UChicago.edu (David Friedman)
Subject: Re: Mongolian Cuisine (HELP!)
Organization: University of Chicago Law School
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 13:59:20 GMT
> Just checking; Ghee is a type of clarified butter?
>
> Marian, Clann Kyle
Ghee is clarified butter; I do not know if there are any other kinds of
clarified butter that are not ghee. It is available from Indian grocery
stores, and Indian cookbooks generally have instructions for making it.
--
David/Cariadoc
DDFr at Midway.UChicago.Edu
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:16:13 -0400
Subject: Re: SC - butter
Mark Harris wrote:
> I remember some arguments in previous years on whether "honey butter" was
> period at all. If even "herb butter" and butter were not period, what was
> eaten on bread? Anything?
Honey butter is probably a German invention, popularized mostly by the
"Pennsylvania Dutch", who are of German origin. I couldn't say when,
but I remember reading some period (or just post-period) traveller's
comment on the English diet: his comment was that less butter was eaten
in England than on the Continent, and that it was not eaten on bread in
the Flemish fashion.
I do know that some period recipes call for white grease (rendered lard
or suet) to be dissolved into pottages, and butter could have been a
non-meat-day substitute in many cases. Toward the very end of our
period, many English recipes called for a knob of butter to be beaten
(emulsified) into sauces, in a technique very similar to modern recipes
for French butter sauces like Beurre Blanc and Bearnaise sauce.
Generally it would thicken the sauce just a bit, but more importantly
would help suspend various things floating in watery liquids, so thinner
sauces wouldn't settle out at service.
>
> Stefan li Rous
> markh at risc.sps.mot.com
Adamantius
From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter)
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 02:41:00 -0500
Subject: Re: SC - butter
Hi, Katerine here. Over the years, I've been working on a project on the use
of various ingredients in 13th to 15th C English cuisine, as reflected by
the surviving recipe corpus. My numbers are complete relative to the 13th and
14th centuries (not much of a trick for the 13th), though I'm nowhere near
done with the 15th. For the curious, the total number of recipes involved
in the current figures are 26 13th C recipes, 419 14th C ones, and 907 15th
C ones.
Of these recipes, butter occurs in 15% of the 13th C recipes, and in 3% of
the 14th and again 3% of the 15th. 3% isn't a lot; but it's as many as, say,
pears and shellfish show up in, and more than cheese, peas, venison, kid,
or rice (comparisons from the 15th C). Other forms of fat are far more common;
recipes include oil or grease six times as frequently. Still, it was hardly
unknown.
I do agree with the original claim, however, that it does not appear to have
been much used as a preservative in meat pies. Meat pies do not frequently
appear to have be used as preservation techniques; for fish, galentine
(in gelled form) appears to have been used more often.
Cheers,
- -- Katerine/Terry
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 22:50:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: SC - butter
At 4:47 PM -0500 5/17/97, Mark Harris wrote:
>On Friday, May 16, Lord Ras said:
>I agree that there are recipes that are LATE period that call for butter and
>even very RARELY a mid-period recipe lists "boter" as an ingredient. However,
>butter was not NORMALLY consumed. It was considered medicinal (to cover
>wounds, salve base, etc.) until rather recent times. Whish IMHO puts it in
>the same category as potatos, tomatos and other late period dietary
>introductions.
The 13th c. Andalusian recipes use both butter and clarified butter. Le
Menagier fries in lard and butter (Cress in Lent with Milk of Almonds).
Platina greases the pan for armored turnips with butter or liquamen (animal
fat, not the Roman liquamen), Proper Newe Book uses butter, _Curye on
Inglysch_ uses it in an emberday vergion of Sawgeat and in Malaches Whyte,
_Ancient Cookery_ in tart in ember day, ...
So much from a quick search of the _Miscellany_. I don't know what you
count as a "mid-period" recipe--if that includes _Curye_ and _Le Menagier_,
then what do you classify as early period?
David/Cariadoc
From: Stephen Bloch <sbloch at adl15.adelphi.edu>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 15:58:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: SC - butter
Stefan li Rous writes:
> It was my understanding that butter was eaten by the lower classes but not
> by the upper but I don't have referances to back this up. Anyone else know?
> Lord Ras, is it possible that the sources you have been looking at are
> primarily just for the upper class and thus would miss the use of butter by
> other classes in/on food?
>
> I remember some arguments in previous years on whether "honey butter" was
> period at all. If even "herb butter" and butter were not period, what was
> eaten on bread? Anything?
From the 13th-century Arabo-Andalusian "Manuscrito Anonimo", a chapter
entitled "The Customs that Many People Follow in Their Countries":
... Many people eat butter, and add it to bread, while others
cannot bear to smell it, much less to eat it....
The same source includes numerous recipes calling for butter. In
particular, a variety of pastries called by the general term "rafis"
(e.g. musahada, markaba, muqawwara, et multae cetera) seem to be topped
with a mixture of melted butter and honey, as often as not poured into a
hole poked in the pastry (although I haven't seen any reference to
mixing honey and butter at room temperature, or allowing the mixture to
cool to room temperature before use, as seems common at SCA feasts).
Butter also appears in Arabo-Andalusian sources in making pie crusts,
again in making puff pastry, and often as a lubricant in meat dish.
What the barbarians beyond the Pyrenees do with butter is their
problem. :-)
mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib
Stephen Bloch
sbloch at panther.adelphi.edu
http://www.adelphi.edu/~sbloch/
Math/CS Dept, Adelphi University
From: Uduido at aol.com
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 22:28:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SC - Butter-oops
In a message dated 97-05-19 03:07:37 EDT, you write:
<< The 13th c. Andalusian recipes use both butter and clarified butter.
...<snip many other wonderful words>>>
I looked up recipes that called for butter and found a few. However, my
original intent was to say that butter was not usually consumed by the
nobility.
"In Medieval Europe, butter was plentiful, so it was viewed as fit only for
poor folk to eat.....[from 'Rich Man, Poor Man, Butter Man...';The Great Food
Almanac (A Feast of Facts From A to Z); Irene Chalmers; pg. 169; pub.
Collins; c. 1994]
Since SCA personas are not considered peasantry , it was my reasoning that
personas of our type would have rarely consumed butter and it would have
rarely reared it's head on the Feast table of any self-respecting nobleman.
it is still my opinion that bread would have been "spread" with the much
tastier olive oil. In fact, I'm on a quest to find the info on this
particular subject. "Bread and butter" is a common item in the Current Middle
Ages, agreed. So are chickens. But chickens were not a "common" food
during the Middle Ages and I have run across no primary references citing the
existence of "bread and butter". It is also my contention that bread was
almost universally dipped in broths,etc. (e.g. "sops") thus negating the
widespread use of any spread being necessary. I would welcome any further
thoughts or info in this area.
Yours in Service to the Dream,
Lord Ras (uduido at aol.com)
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:55:48 -0400
Subject: Re: SC - Butter-oops
Uduido at aol.com wrote:
> personas of our type would have rarely consumed butter and it would have
> rarely reared it's head on the Feast table of any self-respecting nobleman.
> it is still my opinion that bread would have been "spread" with the much
> tastier olive oil. In fact, I'm mon a quest to find the info on this
> particular subject.
This situation may have something in common with the recent
fish-outside-of-Lent thread. I suspect one possibility might be that
butter is something that the lower classes would have eaten whenever
possible, while the rich, feeling that they had to resort to it on fish
and/or fast days, might conceivably avoid it on those days when things
like "greasy seme" of meat might be available. Certainly several recipes
call for butter to be included, possibly as a substitute for other oils
or fats. Sawgeat and Hanoney come to mind, both of which are egg dishes,
which COULD indicate that these are non-meat-day dishes (at least
sawgeat, when butter is used instead of sausage, falls into this
category).
"Bread and butter" is a common item in the Current Middle
> Ages, agreed. So aren't chickens . But chickens were not a "common" food
> during the Middle Ages and I have run across no primary references citing the
> existence of "bread and butter". It is also my contention that bread was
> almost universally dipped in broths,etc. (e.g. "sops") thus negating the
> widespread use of any spread being necessary.
One possibility (if remote) is that spreading bread with a topping might
be something that was done, not while at a feast day table, but rather,
say, on a hunting trip. (Or possibly, while gambling all night long ;
) ) I believe the original Welsh dish of toasted cheese (not the effete
Digby version, but the real thing, being merely good fat cheese roasted
before the fire in slices) was served on toasted bread. Whether this was
then eaten out of hand I don't know.
> I would welcome any further tho'ts or info in this area.
Ol' sieve-head is at it again. I can't place the reference; I just read
this a couple of weeks ago. I believe it was part of an Englishman's
account of life in a Heugenot village in southern England, and it makes
a reference to certain alien habits of the folk of the village: among
them was the habit of giving the children bread smeared thickly with raw
butter in the Flemish fashion.
Does this ring a bell for anyone?
Adamantius
From: nancy <nweders at mail.utexas.edu>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 07:59:29 +0000
Subject: SC - butter
While a late source, The Good Huswifes Jewell, (2 parts, by Thomas
Dawson, published by Walter J. Johnson, Inc. Theatrum Obis Terrarum,Ltd,
Norwood, New Jersey, 1977) lists two "menus" for fish days that have
Butter as the first item served. It also contains a recipe for almond
butter, and a great many recipes list butter as an ingredient. Many of
the meat pies have butter as a liner for the pastry sort of preventing
the juices from leaking through. This is very late in the span that the
SCA uses but it does show how much butter was used in the late period.
It would be interesting in tracing the development of the use of butter
as an ingredient or actually an ingredient.
The Good Huswife's jewel also has a recipe that contains potatoes in it
as well. The recipe includes dates, sugar and red wine.....
Clare
From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter)
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:44:53 -0500
Subject: Re: SC - Butter-oops
Hi, Katerine here. Lord Ras writes:
>I looked up recipes that called for butter and found a few. However, my
>original intent was to say that butter was not usually consumed by the
>nobility.
>
>"In Medieval Europe, butter was plentiful, so it was viewed as fit only for
>poor folk to eat.....[from 'Rich Man, Poor Man, Butter Man...';The Great Food
>Almanac (A Feast of Facts From A to Z); Irene Chalmers; pg. 169; pub.
>Collins; c. 1994]
It's wise to take any statement as sweeping as this with a grain (and
sometimes a pillar) of salt. Attitudes toward butter seem to be strongly
conditioned by time and place. As a very broad generalization, outside
of the Islamic world, southern Europe seems to have preferred olive oil,
while northern Europe preferred meat fats -- either butter or white
grease. Olive oil is mentioned in 13th to 15th century English cuisine,
but less often than butter, and many many times less often than grease.
Meat fats were used for two general kinds of purposes: to raise the fat
content of a dish, and to fry in. For frying, northern Europeans seem
overwhelmingly to have preferred white grease to butter. This may be
strongly influenced by the fact that butter (unless it has been clarified,
a technique mentioned commonly in Spanish and Islamic sources but not
elsewhere) burns at far lower temperatures than grease. Butter also was
not used to lard meats for spit roasting, very likely for the same reason.
For increasing fat content, butter does not seem to have been all that
strongly dispreferred to grease in those areas that prefer meat fats.
>it is still my opinion that bread would have been "spread" with the much
>tastier olive oil.
This is very plausible for Italy and southern France, but relatively
unlikely for northern France, England, Germany, and northern Europe in
general.
>"Bread and butter" is a common item in the Current Middle
>Ages, agreed. So aren't chickens . But chickens were not a "common" food
>during the Middle Ages
Do you mean that chickens were not eaten by peasants, or that they were not
common in upper class cuisine? The first, I have little information on;
but the second is patently false. Chicken is the single most common form
of flesh in 13th to 15th century English recipes; the only thing that comes
close to rivaling it is pork. It is almost two and a half times as common
as beef (including veal), and on the order of ten times as common as
deer.
For details, see http://www.watervalley.net/users/jtn/Articles/game.html.
>It is also my contention that bread was
>almost universally dipped in broths,etc. (e.g. "sops") thus negating the
>widespread use of any spread being necessary. I would welcome any further
>tho'ts or info in this area.
Period serving manuals indicate that tables were set with large amounts
of bread completely apart from trenchers, and that bread was always on
the table with cheese and fruit before the first course arrived. This
would tend to go against your contention. There are recipes for sops,
but they are not all that common; and while it is highly probable that
bread was dipped in other broths and sauces, we have no evidence
that it was *only* used so, and considerable reason to doubt it. On
the other hand, the same serving manuals make no mention of putting
butter on the table (or olive oil); which suggests that neither was it
spread with substances of that kind, at least much of the time.
Cheers,
- -- Katerine/Terry
From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter)
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:53:53 -0500
Subject: Re: SC - Butter-oops
Hi, Katerine here. Adamantius writes,
>This situation may have something in common with the recent
>fish-outside-of-Lent thread. I suspect one possibility might be that
>butter is something that the lower classes would have eaten whenever
>possible, while the rich, feeling that they had to resort to it on fish
>and/or fast days, might conceivably avoid it on those days when things
>like "greasy seme" of meat might be available. Certainly several recipes
>call for butter to be included, possibly as a substitute for other oils
>or fats. Sawgeat and Hanoney come to mind, both of which are egg dishes,
>which COULD indicate that these are non-meat-day dishes (at least
>sawgeat, when butter is used instead of sausage, falls into this
>category).
Butter is explicitly suggested as an Ember Day alternative to sausage.
Ember Days are not fish days. They are specific dieting days that are
less restricted, but that still do not permit flesh. (Ember days are
also relatively rare; twelve in a year, as I recall.)
I'm not certain that butter was permitted on fish days. I don't recall
it offhand in any fish dishes through the 15th century. I do, however,
know of recipes that include both butter and marrow. If you can use
marrow, you can use white grease (that is, if the religious dietary
restrictions permit the first, they also permit the second).
Butter occurs in custardy dishes reasonably often. Grease does not.
The strong implication is that it was preferred in those dishes.
Cheers,
- -- Katerine/Terry
From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter)
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:58:34 -0500
Subject: Re: SC - butter
Hi, Katerine here. Clare writes:
>It [Dawson] also contains a recipe for almond
>butter
There are at least six recipes for almond butter extant from the 14th and
15th centuries in England. However, there is no evidence that it was used
as a spread. It seems to have been served sliced as a dish.
Cheers,
- -- Katerine/Terry
From: "Sue Wensel" <swensel at brandegee.lm.com>
Date: 20 May 1997 13:38:52 -0500
Subject: Re(2): SC - butter
Markham has a recipe for roasted butter. Basically you beat some eggs and
sugar (I think) into some butter, dredge it, and roast it. While you roast
it, you need to keep dredging it. Markham says it was very popular.
Derdriu
swensel at brandegee.lm.com
From: "Sue Wen