blancmange-msg - 2/7/12

A medieval rice dish composed principally of rice, almond milk and chicken.

NOTE: See also the files: rice-msg, almond-milk-msg, chicken-msg, grains-msg, sugar-msg, pot-lck-ideas-msg, pasta-msg.

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This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I  have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I  have done  a limited amount  of  editing. Messages having to do  with separate topics  were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the  message IDs  were removed to save space and remove clutter.

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Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 00:05:38 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: SC - Blancmanger - a Redaction

I'd been asked, after mentioning sugar in blancmanger, "Sugar? What
sugar?"

Here's a recipe for blancmanger calling for both sugar and salt: I can't
imagine it being thought of as especially bland.

From Curye On Inglysch, Book IV, The Forme of Cury:

"38     Blank maunger. Take capouns and see6 hem, 6enne take hem vp; take
almaundes blaunched, grynde hem & alay hem vp with the same broth. Cast
the mylk in a pot. Waisshe rys and do 6erto, and lat it seeth; 6anne
take 6e brawn of 6e capouns, teere it small and do 6erto. Take white
grece, sugur and salt, and cast 6erinne. Lat it see6, 6enne messe it
forth and florissh it with aneys in confyt, red o6er whyt, and with
almaundes fryed in oyle, and serue it forth."

I would say the trick is to boil your capons (and I assume chickens
would work fairly well as a substitute) in as little water as possible,
to encourage a decently strong broth. If you cooked the chickens long
enough to get a decent stock out of it, the chicken meat would be almost
inedible, so to get as little broth, and as strong, as possible, is
probably the goal here.

VERY rough quantities, to me, anyway, would go something like this:

1/2 capon or 1 chicken breast
water to cover
1 1/2 cups blanched almonds, moistened with ice water and ground
1  cup rice
1 or 2 Tbs lard or chicken fat skimmed from the top of the broth
~1/2 tsp salt
~1 Tbs sugar
1/2 cup shredded blanched almonds
olive oil
1 Tbs anise seeds in confit, either homemade or cheat with candied
fennel seeds from the
        Indian market, OR 2 Tbs of pomegranite kernels.

Place your poultry in a pot just big enough to hold it comfortably.
Cover with water, bring to a boil, skim, and simmer for 25-30 minutes,
or until tender. Allow it to cool in the broth or it will dry out! When
meat and broth are cold, drain the meat, pick off any skin and pick out
any bones, etc. Shred or grind the meat, ideally into little threads. I
suggest a fine julienne along the grain. Pack the meat into a container
just big enough to hold it, cover with just enough cold broth to keep it
moist, and reserve.

While the chicken cooks, saute your almonds in a bit of olive oil until
toasted golden brown. Drain and reserve.

Measure your broth: if you have more than three cups or so, simmer to
reduce the broth until you have around three cups. Pour boiling broth
over the almonds, let sit for at least ten minutes to infuse, then
blenderize and/or strain. Straining will reduce the volume of your milk,
so if it is a little less than three cups, you may need to top it off
with some water or any extra broth you may have, such as canned chicken
stock.

Put the almond milk in a large saucepan, and add the rice. Bring to a
boil, reduce the heat to very low, and simmer, stirring frequently,
until the rice grains are done, and the overall mass is the consistency
of a risotto or a thick porridge. Watch out; this will _really_ want to
burn. Add your poultry meat, and stir it in. Stir in your lard or
chicken fat, which should be cold, and stir constantly until it is
absorbed by the rice. Butter might do in a pinch. You need the fat to
keep the rice from getting gunky as it cools, just as you might do with
polenta or risotto. Season to taste with salt and sugar. If you think
it's too bland do it again, and continue until the whole thing tastes
right.

Pour into a wide shallow bowl, such as you might use for pasta, and
garnish one half with the almonds, and one half with either the confits
or the pomegranite kernels.

This is a pretty rich dish, and when served SCA-style with other dishes,
this ought to serve eight or more.

Adamantius


Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:41:48 -0400
From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow)
Subject: Re: SC - Blancmange

>Can anyone out there send me the Blancmange recipe from Take a Thousand Eggs
>or More?  I am in charge of cooking the Blancmange at a feast this Saturday
>and I packed this book about a week ago since I am moving.  I need to get
>the ingredient list to the Head cook today, so I would really appreciate it.
>
>Murkial

Hello!  Here is the recipe you requested from the *new* edition of "Take a
Thousand Eggs or More" (which is due to be delivered by the printer in a
few days!  [Hopping up & down & chortling with glee!!])

Cindy/Sincgiefu
renfrow at skylands.net
http://www.alcasoft.com/renfrow/

"Harleian MS. 279 - Potage Dyvers

lxxxij.  Blamang.  Take Rys, an lese hem clene, & wasshe hem clene in flake
Water, & [th]an sethe hem in Watere, & aftyrward in Almaunde Mylke, & do
[th]er-to Brawn of [th]e Capoun aftyrward in-to a-no[th]er almaunde Mylke,
an tese it smal sumdele with a pyn, an euer as it wolt caste [th]er-to,
stere it wel; nym Sugre and caste [th]er-to, [th]en make it chargeaunt;
[th]en take blawnchyd Almaundys, an frye hem, an sette hem a-boue, whan
[th]ou seruyst ynne; & 3if [th]ou wolt, [th]ou my[3]te departe hem with a
Cawdelle Ferry y-wreten before, an [th]an serue forth.

82.  Blancmange.  Take Rice, and pick them clean, & wash them clean in warm
Water, & then seethe them in Water, & afterward in Almond Milk, & put
thereto Flesh of the Capon afterward into another almond Milk, and tease it
small somewhat with a pin, and ever as it will stick thereto, stir it well;
take Sugar and cast thereto, then make it thick; then take blanched
Almonds, and fry them, and set them above, when thou serve in; & if thou
will, thou might depart them with a Cawdelle Ferry written before,  and
then serve forth.

Harleian MS. 4016

86 Blamanger.  Take faire Almondes, and blanche hem, And grynde hem with
sugour water into faire mylke; and take ryse, and seth.  And whan they beth
wel y-sodde, take hem vppe, and caste hem to the almondes mylke, and lete
hem boile togidre til thei be thikk; And then take the brawne of a Capon,
and tese hit small, And caste thereto; and then take Sugur and salt, and
caste thereto, and serue hit forth in maner of mortrewes.

86 Blancmange.  Take fair Almonds, and blanch them, And grind them with
sugar water into fair milk; and take rice, and seethe.  And when they are
well sodden, take them up, and cast them to the almond milk, and let them
boil together till they are thick; And then take the flesh of a Capon, and
tease it small, And cast thereto; and then take Sugar and salt, and cast
thereto, and serve it forth in manner of mortrews.

 BLANCMANGE

"...That neither bacoun ne braune  blancmangere ne mortrewes
Is noither fisshe ne flesshe  but fode for a penaunte..."

This version of blancmange is intended to be served as a paste or porridge.

1 1/4 cups blanched almonds
2 Tablespoons sugar
1 cup rice
1 1/2 teaspoons salt, or to taste
4 1/2 cups water
1 Tablespoon butter, lard, or oil
1 1/2 cups raw chicken or capon

Fry 1/4 cup blanched almonds in butter, lard or oil until browned.  Set
aside.
Grind 1 cup blanched almonds to flour in a coffee grinder or blender.  Sift
through a sieve to remove any large pieces.  Put the almond flour in a
large bowl.  Add 2 cups boiling water and 1 tablespoon sugar.  Stir.  Let
sit 5 to 10 minutes.
Add 2 cups of this almond milk to the raw chicken in a 6-quart pot.  Add
1/2 teaspoon salt.  Cover and bring to a boil.  Reduce heat and simmer
until chicken is cooked, about 20 minutes, stirring occasionally.  When
done, take up the chicken and grind it in a blender.  Return the chicken to
the pot and keep warm over low heat.
Meanwhile, in a 2-quart pot, bring 2 1/2 cups water and 1 teaspoon salt to
a boil.  Add rice.  Stir.  Reduce heat and cook 15 minutes.  Remove from
heat.  Let sit 5 minutes.  Add the remaining almond milk to the rice.
Stir.  Cover and let sit 5 minutes more.
Add the rice mixture to the chicken mixture.  Stir.  Add 1 tablespoon sugar
and salt to taste.  Stir.  Pour the blancmange into a serving dish.
Garnish with fried almonds.  Serve hot.
Makes 6 cups.  Serves 6.

Variation:  Omit the fried almonds.  Serve the blancmange with a sauce of
Cawdelle Ferry. (See pp. 250-1.)"  Coypright 1997, Cindy Renfrow.


Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 18:42:38 +0200
From: "ana l. valdes" <agora at algonet.se>
Subject: SC - blanc mange

Greetings from Ana

I wonder if someone has studied the development of the blanc mangé. I
traced down it to the arabic kitchen, later to Spain and from Spain to
England, France and Germany and the Nordic Countries.
In the original recipee was it done with vealmeat, almondsmilk and eggs.
It is some regional variant with chicken meat.
But later on the dish become a sweet meal, la "confiture de lait" in
France and Belgium and Schweitz. Today the blanc mangé is wide known in
South America, but only in the sweet version of milk, sugar or
eventually sugar, milk and eggs.
Someone around specialized in the arabic influence in the spanish and
european dishes?


Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 10:55:06 -0600
From: "Brian L. Rygg or Laura Barbee-Rygg" <rygbee at montana.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Question on Blanc Manger

> Since I've only made it once and it disappeared in about 15 minutes flat I
> have some questions regarding the keep-ability of this dish:
>
> Does it re-heat and/or freeze well?  For that matter, is it good served cold?
>
> Any advise from the more experienced blanc manger-makers out there would be
> greatly appreciated.
>
> Renata

It is good served cold, and I have frozen it without any problem.
Raoghnailt
Stan Wyrm, Artemisia


Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 17:55:46 EDT
From: Aelfwyn at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - OT?-Question on Blanc Manger

THLRenata at aol.com writes:
<< Does it re-heat and/or freeze well? >>

I made some a couple of days ago. It kept well in the 'fridge and reheated
perfectly in the microwave in serving size batches. 

Aelfwyn


From: "Vincent Cuenca" <bootkiller at hotmail.com>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 15:25:23 
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Blancmange & royal dish recipes

Kiri asked for them, so here we go:

from de Nola:

Blancmange

For blancmange: take a chicken and eight ounces of rice flour and half a
pound of rosewater; and a pound of fine sugar; and eight pounds of goat's
milk; if there is none, then take four pounds of white almonds and then take
the chicken, which should be good and fat and large; and when you wish to
make the blancmange, kill the chicken and dry-pluck it, and clean it well
and cook it in a new pot that has not had anything cooked in it; and when
the chicken is half-cooked, take the breasts and shred them finely like
threads of saffron, and then sprinkle the shredded breasts with the
rosewater, little by little, then it all goes back into the pot, which
should not be of copper or newly tinned, because it would take on the flavor
of the tinning; although most cooks make this in untinned vessels, highly
polished, but if it has recently been tinned, boil much bread in it, and
sweat it very well, so that all the flavor of the tinning is drawn out; then
put in the chicken and take the stock of the chicken and pour it in with the
chicken, and stir it with a wooden spoon, beating it very well, so that it
does not take on the flavor of the wood; and take half the milk and pour it
in the pot with the chicken and then add the flour little by little, and
stir it constantly so that it does not stick to the pot, and add eight
dineros of sugar, which are twelve maraved=EDs' worth, to the pot and set it
to cook; and stir it constantly with a wooden spoon in the same direction
without letting it rest and when it needs milk add it little by little and
not all at once, and keep it well away from the smoke; and when the
blancmange turns clear or thin the chicken is good; and if not be careful
not to add any more milk; and when the blancmange becomes like baking
cheese, this is a sign that it is done; and then you can add rosewater, and
then the fat from the pot, but only if it is clean and without any bacon;
and know that from one chicken you can obtain six servings; and take it from
the fire to sweat so that it expels all its moisture; and then prepare the
serving bowls and put fine sugar on top; and in this way one makes a perfect
and good blancmange.

Royal Dish

Royal dish is made from the leg of lamb, cooked and shredded, in the manner
of blancmange; except that it is given color with saffron so that it is
yellow; for the rest follow the order described for blancmange.

Vicente


Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 16:46:16 -0400
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
From: Angie Malone <alm4 at cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] fat back or salt pork:oops proportions

It's the "Italian Blancmange from Foreign Parts" out of Redon,
Medieval kitchen: recipes from france and italy:

The ingredients are:

2 oz chicken (cooked)
2 heaping T rice (arborio or round rice)
2 c milk (goat's milk)
2 oz pork, fatback
2 T sugar
10 blanched almonds
  salt
  fresh ginger root for garnish.

Shred the chicken.  cut the fatback into 1/8 in. dice; saute half of
it in a small skillet until lightly golden brown and crisp.

Bring the milk to a boil and sprinkle in the rice. Boil for a few
moments stirring constantly, then add the chicken, two-thirds of the
sugar, and the fried fatback, drained.  Lower the heat, and simmer,
stirring from time to time, until the rice is tender and can be
easily crushed between your fingers.

Meanwhile, saute the remaining fatback with the almonds. Peel some
ginger and cut it into paper thin slices.

Serve warm or cold, decorated with the sauteed fatback and almonds
and with slices of ginger.

Oops you know they never tell you what to do with the last third of the sugar.

	Angeline

>Angie Malone wrote:
>>  Hmm that brings a dilemma.  If  I can't find  fat back wonder what I
>>  should substitute for it for the blancmange I am making.  When I
>>  tested the recipe to see how much it would make for quantity  I
>>  didn't have any fat back so I sliced a little bacon off the slab I
>>  had in the freezer and used that since I thought it would have
>>  probably the same consistency but NOT the same taste.  It did give it
>>  a good taste though.
>
>That would depend on the recipe. Can you post it or give us the source?
>To be honest, all the blankmanger recipes I've used have called for
>white grece, which would likely be rendered lard or suet. It's mostly
>there to lighten the texture of the dish and prevent a skin from forming
>on top. I guess you can take the rice pudding out of the skin, but you
>can't... well... you know...
>
>Adamantius


Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 13:26:56 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks]Blancmanger was Recipe evolution
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

There's rather a good article on the history of
"Blanc manger"....
See
Sorting through the Titles of Medieval Dishes:
What Is, or Is Not, a "Blanc Manger"
By Constance B. Hieatt
appears in
Food in the Middle Ages. A Book of Essays.
Edited by Melitta Weiss Adamson. NY: Garland, 1995.
The article is on pp.25-43.

Johnnae llyn Lewis


Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 08:12:04 -0400
From: <kingstaste at mindspring.com>
Subject: FW: FW: [Sca-cooks] rice pudding
To: "SCA Cooks" <Sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

I wrote to THLady Temair who has been collecting Blancmange recipes, in
hopes she could answer Stefan's questions.
Christianna

--- kingstaste at mindspring.com wrote:
> Can you provide a simple definition here?
> Christy

-----Original Message-----
From: Terri Spencer [mailto:tarats at yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 12:39 AM
To: kingstaste at mindspring.com
Subject: Re: FW: [Sca-cooks] rice pudding

Ha, you want simple?  White food!

Of the over 50 Medieval and Renaissance Blancmanger and related recipes
I've collected so far, truly all they have in common is a whitish color
(unless deliberately dyed) and they are food - almost comfort food.  I
guess I'd define it as a popular savory or sweet dish with many
variations, depending on the setting (banquet, lenten, sickroom,
parti-colored), the place (French liked it light, Italians with dairy,
Catalans and Chiquart sweet), and the time (later recipes include
milk/cream, eggs and sweet spices).  It contains one or more of:  rice
or rice powder, teased or shredded chicken or capon meat, almond milk,
and/or sugar.  It may also contain amydon, veal, turkey, pheasant, sea
or river fish, lobster, no meat at all, broth, water, cow or goat milk,
cream, white grease, lard, almond or olive oil, egg whites and/or
yolks, salt, ginger, grains, rosewater, verjuice, lemon juice or white
wine.  It is often served standing, chargeant or sliced. I guess it is
a pudding, though not at all like the modern molded, jiggly, bland
dessert.

Sorry, that isn't very simple, but I hope it helps.

Tara

> -----Original Message-----
> Huette asked:
>> Are we talking an actual sweet rice pudding here? Or are we talking
>> blancmange?
>
> Oh! Hmmm. Okay, just what is the difference between a blancmange and
> a rice pudding? Is it the chicken which is typically in blancmange?

> Stefan


Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:04:01 -0400
From: Suey <lordhunt at gmail.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Blancmange
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

     Constance Hieatt and Sharon Butler in their edition of Curye on
Inglysch state in their Index and Glossary that: . . medieval English
dishes which bears some resemblance to a recipe of Apicius - Cibrium
Album mentioned in the Cibria Alba recipe of HV. . .     Does anyone
know what Apicius recipe they are talking about?

     Then they go on to state that they believe blancmange is of Arab,
possibly of Syrian origin but left it open for experts in that field to
explain that one. Perry devotes an entire chapter to: Isfidhabaj (which
is Persian), Blancmanger and Almonds in the Medieval Arab Cookery. He
finds no evidence that blancmange is a descendant of Isfidhabaj.

     Has anyone traced blancmange back to an Arab dish? Ana L. Valdes in
Stefan's blancmange msg:
http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD/blancmange-msg.html states she has
traced it to the Arabs. Then it came to Spain and after that to other
countries. How so?

         Is this in reference to mehallaiyyah or mehalabeya? I do not
think of medieval blancmange as a pudding but as a pottage and I don't
see it becoming a dessert until the 17th Century.

     Further there is a statement at:
http://european.hetto.org/european-food/25.html that Catalan recipe
similar to blancmange in the 8th C. Is there any validity to that? Or is
Sent Sovi older than we think?

Suey


Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 18:16:04 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Blancmange
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Jul 3, 2007, at 5:04 PM, Suey wrote:
>     Constance Hieatt and Sharon Butler in their edition of Curye on
> Inglysch state in their Index and Glossary that: . . medieval English
> dishes which bears some resemblance to a recipe of Apicius - Cibrium
> Album mentioned in the Cibria Alba recipe of HV. . .     Does anyone
> know what Apicius recipe they are talking about?

Off the top of my head, it doesn't sound familiar, but I doubt any
strong claim is being made that one is a direct linear descendant of
the other.

>     Then they go on to state that they believe blancmange is of Arab,
> possibly of Syrian origin but left it open for experts in that
> field to explain that one.

Actually, I'm not sure they're saying that at all. What they are
doing is lumping together all dishes whose names begin with "blank",
and addressing the question of what that might man in the various
usages. Their allusion to being of Arabic origin is perhaps partially
due to the fact that appearances of white almond-and-rice-based
dishes seem to really take off after the First Crusade. The reference
to a possible Syrian origin is, as I recall, just an attempt to
explain the name of one of the dishes, Blanc Desyre.

Certainly almonds and rice are more closely associated with the
cuisines of the MidEast and Spain (these being more native to those
parts of the world) than with that of England, unless some agent like
opening trade routes or wholesale travel (such as the Crusades)
changes that.

> Perry devotes an entire chapter to: Isfidhabaj (which
> is Persian), Blancmanger and Almonds in the Medieval Arab Cookery. He
> finds no evidence that blancmange is a descendant of Isfidhabaj.

It may simply be an attempt on the part of non-cooks to recreate some
of the flavors they encountered in the Middle East, with perhaps an
incomplete understanding of those cuisines. Think of some of the
dishes produced in 19th and early 20th-century England under the name
of "curry". Not much like what these guys ate in India, but to them,
it was evocative. Perhaps blankmanger is an earlier example of a
similar phenomenon.

>     Has anyone traced blancmange back to an Arab dish? Ana L. Valdes in
> Stefan's blancmange msg:
> http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD/blancmange-msg.html states
> she has
> traced it to the Arabs. Then it came to Spain and after that to other
> countries. How so?
>         Is this in reference to mehallaiyyah or mehalabeya? I do not
> think of medieval blancmange as a pudding but as a pottage and I don't
> see it becoming a dessert until the 17th Century.

Well, what _does_ become a dessert prior to the 17th century, unless
perhaps you mean wafers, confits and hippocras? ;-)

>     Further there is a statement at:
> http://european.hetto.org/european-food/25.html that Catalan recipe
> similar to blancmange in the 8th C. Is there any validity to that?
> Or is Sent Sovi older than we think?
> Suey

It may be simply be the natural result of the "natural history" of
the region. If things like sugar and almonds appear more commonly
earlier than they do in the rest of Western Europe, it's not that
much of a stretch. It's conceivable that the exposure of the people
of that region to foods that we normally associate with the Mideast
and North Africa might come a lot earlier than it would have to
England, Northern France and Germany, who did not experience that
great wave of Islamic influence at that time.

Adamantius


Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 01:02:14 +0200
From: " Ana Vald?s " <agora158 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Blancmange
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

In my research about the Blanc Manger issue what happened was when the
Conquistadores come to Peru and Mexico they wanted to eat the things they
knew and they tried to substitute the ingredients with local ones. South
America had not almonds or hens to make the original recipe (a mixture of
hen meat and almond milk) and they found the milk from the cows they had
bring to America achieve the same result, a thick confiture/jam who could be
eaten alone or with bread or with tortillas. Sugar and milk were the local
ingredients and today you find "dulce de leche" in the whole South America.
It's called different names, cajeta, manjar blanco, doce de leite,  
but it's the same recipe.

Ana


Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 18:22:39 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Blancmange
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

>    Constance Hieatt and Sharon Butler in their edition of Curye on
> Inglysch state in their Index and Glossary that: . . medieval English
> dishes which bears some resemblance to a recipe of Apicius - Cibrium
> Album mentioned in the Cibria Alba recipe of HV. . .     Does anyone
> know what Apicius recipe they are talking about?

Literally, cibrium album is "food white," so "white food" or "white dish."
To my knowledge, Apicius doesn't use the term, but I think you will find it
used in Platina and that it is Platina, who references Apicius.  The closest
thing I've found in Apicius to blancmange is Apothermum sic facies (Apicius
II. II. 10) which is a gruel/porridge/pudding of spelt grits that is
bleached white in the preparation.  It is not a traditional blancmange,
which use rice and sugar (or, in the case of the French, gelatin and  
almond milk), but it might be an interesting precursor.

>    Then they go on to state that they believe blancmange is of Arab,
> possibly of Syrian origin but left it open for experts in that field to
> explain that one. Perry devotes an entire chapter to: Isfidhabaj (which
> is Persian), Blancmanger and Almonds in the Medieval Arab Cookery. He
> finds no evidence that blancmange is a descendant of Isfidhabaj.
>    Has anyone traced blancmange back to an Arab dish? Ana L. Valdes in
> Stefan's blancmange msg:
> http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD/blancmange-msg.html states she has
> traced it to the Arabs. Then it came to Spain and after that to other
> countries. How so?

The basic ingredients, rice and sugar, were being cultivated in the Middle
East by 400 BCE, so there is a strong probability that the ancestor of
blancmange came West with rice and sugar.  The evidence of the lineage of
blancmange is inconclusive.

>        Is this in reference to mehallaiyyah or mehalabeya? I do not
> think of medieval blancmange as a pudding but as a pottage and I don't
> see it becoming a dessert until the 17th Century.

As a grain dish, blancmange can be served from near liquid to almost solid,
thus gruel/porridge/pudding.  The version made with almond milk and gelatin
was probably served as a soft solid like Jello, while Martino's Blancmange
in the Catalan Style was a thick liquid intended to be served as a sweet
dish.

>    Further there is a statement at:
> http://european.hetto.org/european-food/25.html that Catalan recipe
> similar to blancmange in the 8th C. Is there any validity to that?  
> Or is Sent Sovi older than we think?
> Suey

I couldn't locate the quote, however; the recipes in the Sent Sovi were
collected at the time the manuscript was written.  The recipes were most
likely being used before they were collected, but we have no way to
determine how much earlier they were being used.  In this case, the recipe
is probably being casually tied to the Arab invasion of Iberia in 711 and
the commonly accepted opinion that they brought rice and sugar to the
peninsula.

Bear


Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 18:24:52 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Blancmange
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Here's a nice blancmange reference,
http://www.hertzmann.com/articles/2003/blanc/

Bear


Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 21:47:42 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Hispano-Muslim Desserts
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Jul 3, 2007, at 7:54 PM, Suey wrote:

> Phil answered to my blancmange message:
>> Well, what _does_ become a dessert prior to the 17th century, unless
>> perhaps you mean wafers, confits and hippocras? ;-)
>
> Ever hear of marchipan, pastries, fritters, fried milk, fruits, olives
> and a whole list that could be medieval a dictionary filled with
> desserts which I do have 12 years in the making by the way!

Yes to all of them, but please define "dessert". Are you referring to
sweet dishes (which might include anything from just about any fried
food, up to roast, stuffed, chicken), or are you referring to sweets
eaten as a separate course at the close of a meal? My point was that
sweet dishes don't necessarily serve the role they did in the Middle
Ages.

The later incarnations of blancmange (the primarily almond-and-sugar-
based versions, or the even later still custard-like versions) seem
to emerge on things like 17th-century banquet tables (more like a
dessert sideboard at that time, than like a modern dinner table). My
point was that these versions of blankmanger are more like what we'd
recognize as desserts; the pottage versions, even the sweetened ones,
perhaps not so much.

However: something to consider -- you may find that there are French
menus from the 14th or 15th centuries which list blankmanger as an
entremet, served as a fancy dish between the regular courses. It's
possible this may have contributed to the idea of a sweet dessert-
type course on a feast day.

Adamantius


Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 21:57:12 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Blancmange
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Incidentally, regarding earlier incarnations of blankmanger under
other names, we may need to consider a dish about which very little
is known: dillegrout. It has been alleged (I think by Leonard
Wibberley, in a book about English Coronation ceremonies) that
dillegrout was a traditional Coronation dish, and that it may have
been a porridge similar to blankmanger. As I recall (I have no access
to any more information than what I am telling you now; don't even
bother asking ;-)  ), this was supposed to have been a throwback to
old English (as in pre-Norman) Coronation feasts; it may have been
intended to add legitimacy to the claims of Norman kings that they
"ate like Englishmen". Anyway, I vaguely recall reading that
dillegrout has been served at several English coronation feasts, some
relatively recently (say, Edward VII), and that there is alleged to
be a family with a hereditary title of Royal Dillegrout Pottager (or
some such). You might look in the Florilegium for more info on
dillegrout, possibly dilligrout.

It's possible Johnnae or Bear may have some info on this.

Adamantius


Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 23:42:13 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Blancmange
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

>  Sugar I question
> Spaniards took cane so we must allow a few years for crops to produce.

Columbus introduced sugar into the New World on his second voyage and it
quickly spread and became a major crop in the Caribbean.  Rice, according to
Roger Owen, took a couple centuries to catch on in the New World.

> Thank you so much. But my main query with you is what is your
> reference that blancmange came from Arab origin and from Spain entered
> Europe? My question elsewhere is could it have had a Roman or even  
> Greek origin?

Probably not.  While the Greeks and Romans knew about sugar and rice, sugar
was so rare and expensive that it was used only as medicine while the only
rice import of note was rice wine.  Platina relates one of Martino's
blancmange recipes to a recipe in Apicius, but Martino never acknowledged
Apicius as a source and no existing copy of Apicius has a recipe for
blancmange.

>    Almonds seem to be something we always had in Spain and the Med
> region so I suppose we took them to the Americas and we must to leave
> time for growth before we can use them there. . .
>    You know my friends we have the basic ingredients for this dish in
> Syria, Egypt and of course Baghdad but it does not seem that "Knights"
> had it as Perry does not mention it there . So where does this come
> from? In my book it is not from Provence as per Calero's interpretation
> of Villena! We could have it in the 8th century before or after,
> somewhere, no????
> Suey

Almonds seem to start appearing in the New World around the 17th  
Century.

Bear


Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 13:09:49 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Blancmange
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

It's not that hard with a reasonable library to trace blancmange recipes. My thought is that the conversation missed the beginning of the modern articles which is likely C Anne Wilson's article titled
The French Connection: Part II.
The relevant section appears on pp17-19 in Petits Propos Culinaires 4
(1980).

Johnnae


Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 13:22:33 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Blancmange
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Jul 4, 2007, at 1:09 PM, Johnna Holloway wrote:

> It's not that hard with a reasonable
> library to trace blancmange recipes. My thought is that the conversation
> missed the beginning
> of the modern articles which is likely C Anne Wilson's article titled
> The French Connection: Part II.
> The relevant section appears on pp17-19 in Petits Propos Culinaires 4
> (1980).
>
> Johnnae

This article is also referenced in the glossary entry in Curye On
Inglysch...

Those following this thread might also look at C. Anne Wilson's
articles in PPC #7 and 8, "The Saracen Connection: Arab Cuisine and
the Medieval West".

Adamantius (who owns far too few issues of PPC, but has a local store
that actually sells it, as in, off a rack like a real magazine...
even back issues)


Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 12:15:42 -0300
From: Suey <lordhunt at gmail.com>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Thoughts on Adam Gopnik's Sweet Revolution in
	the New Yorker - Blancmange

James wrote:
<<< Adam Gopnik's excellent piece on the evolution of desert and the role of
pastry chefs in culinary innovation raises interesting questions. Based on
interviews with prominent Catalan chefs who see themselves as the inheritors
of the French mantle of desert, the article explores the relationship
between savory and sweet. That exploration, however, dates much further back
in history to the Persian and then the Ottoman kitchen, with its high degree
of specialization and separate guild for pastry chefs. Sweet and savory was
not limited to deserts but played a prominent role in Persian and Ottoman
main dishes. But to stick to deserts, Europe was exposed to Ottoman playing
with sweet-savory combinations as far back as the 14th century when it
became enchanted with tavuk g?g?s (chicken breast), shredded chicken in a
sweet milk pudding. Known as blanc manger or white pudding, tavuk g?g?s
maintained its chicken content in contemporary Turkish cuisine but lost it
in Europe over the centuries. >>>

Calero, an editor of Villena, maintains that it originated in Provence. 
The name is adapted into English and Spanish from French meaning "white 
eating." Hiatt believes the recipes in Form of Curye are similar to 
Apicius recipe "Cibarium//Album", an almond based sweet sauce. Although 
the basic ingredients, almond milk, rice and sugar, came to Europe 
through the Arabs, Perry suspects that only the name, "Harisa de Arroz" 
(Rice Harisa) can be attributed to the Arabs. Hispano-Arab recipes show 
no record of blancmange. The first is in the Catalan text Sent Sovi from 
the 13th Century not the 14th.

Suey


Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 11:04:21 -0500
From: Elaine Koogler <kiridono at gmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Thoughts on Adam Gopnik's Sweet Revolution in
	the New Yorker - Blancmange

I did find a recipe in *Annals of the Caliphs' Kitchens *that really does
look like it might be a 10th c. antecedent to blancmanger.  The main recipe
calls for using meat, and water.  However, there is a variation, *
muhallabiyya*, that calls for chicken, rice and milk...all of which get
cooked together until they thicken.  It's missing the almonds, but
otherwise....

Kiri

On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 10:15 AM, Suey <lordhunt at gmail.com> wrote:
<<< Calero, an editor of Villena, maintains that it originated in Provence.
The name is adapted into English and Spanish from French meaning "white
eating." Hiatt believes the recipes in Form of Curye are similar to Apicius
recipe "Cibarium//Album", an almond based sweet sauce. Although the basic
ingredients, almond milk, rice and sugar, came to Europe through the Arabs,
Perry suspects that only the name, "Harisa de Arroz" (Rice Harisa) can be
attributed to the Arabs. Hispano-Arab recipes show no record of blancmange.
The first is in the Catalan text Sent Sovi from the 13th Century not the
14th.
Suey >>>


Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 11:17:26 -0300
From: Suey <lordhunt at gmail.com>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Blancmange

Kiri said:
<<< I did find a recipe in *Annals of the Caliphs' Kitchens *that really does
look like it might be a 10th c. antecedent to blancmanger.  The main recipe
calls for using meat, and water.  However, there is a variation, *
muhallabiyya*, that calls for chicken, rice and milk...all of which get
cooked together until they thicken.  It's missing the almonds, but
otherwise.... >>>

Second thoughts, Woudn't "muhallabiyya" be an harisa? I think Perry said 
to be blancmange almonds were necessary so although like blancmange it 
is not the thing.

Suey


Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 11:22:46 -0500
From: Elaine Koogler <kiridono at gmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Blancmange

<<< Second thoughts, Woudn't "muhallabiyya" be an harisa? I think Perry said to
be blancmange almonds were necessary so although like blancmange it is not
the thing.

Suey >>>

According to the recipe, this is an adaptation.  The original recipe is made
with wheat kernels and is a harisa...so this variation is one as well, I
guess.  I'm not sure when the almonds became part of it...my thought was
that this might be, if you will, a proto-blancmanger.

Kiri

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	blancmange-msg	Page 16 of 16