bag-cooking-msg - 4/25/08
Using plastic bags to warm pre-cooked foods at SCA events.
NOTE: See also the files: caldron-cookg-msg, Camp-Cooking-art, canning-msg, cook-ovr-fire-msg, drying-foods-msg, no-fire-cook-msg, Preservng-CMA-art.
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Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 00:18:15 -0700
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Casbah! Feast, was Period Couscous References?
"Mark S. Harris" <stefan at texas.net> wrote:
>al-Sayyida Anahita al-Qurtubiyya bint 'abd al-Karim al-hakim al-Fassi said:
> > I froze the chicken dish, the White Tharidah of al-Rashid, (about 14
> > gallons worth in zip-closed plastic bags) to avoid "church picnic
> > chicken syndrome". The Seven Vegetable Tagine was bagged and just
> > refrigerated (about 9 gallons). Fabian made 600 meatballs from the
> > Andalusian recipe i sent him, and froze them, per my request. The
> > couscous was made on site.
> >
> > However, the food was re-heated courtesy of the gracious hostess of
> > the feast, Eliska, and quite a few generous volunteers who manned the
> > pots of hot water.
>
>You froze the food in regular, store bought plastic zip lock bags?
>Freezer bags or storage bags?
Yes, I just used regular storage bags. I filled them about half-way
(that is, i put about 1 gallon of cooked chicken in each two gallon
bag - easier to handle, as it left bag to grip - i was afraid they'd
burst if i filled them all the way, from the weight and strain).
I put the bags in the freezer and rotated them every 1/2 hour or so,
squishing them a bit to distribute the cold, until they got frosty.
Then i left them to freeze when i was sure they were cold through.
>And then you dropped the bags of food
>including the plastic into the boiling water to thaw and warm them
>up???
No, no, no! Would not be safe. We did immerse the bags in hot water,
though... Someone kept pots of water simmering on a propane stove.
Then periodically hot water was dipped out and added to the water in
some large containers we had - tempered with cold water out of the
spigot. I do not think the plastic the bags were made of would
withstand boiling.
Fabian says he wants to get double boilers for the next feast...
>Sounds very convenient and a lot cleaner than emptying the bags
>into pots and warming the food there, as my wife and I have been
>doing for several years at Gulf Wars.
Yes, it was convenient and we didn't have to wash out the pots.
>The bags don't melt? Or
>break open strewing the food into the boiling water? Hmmm.
As i said above, we did not immerse the bags in the boiling water in
the pots on the stove... I was afraid what you're afraid of would
happen (besides health risks from heated plastic).
After it was hot, the food was put into chafing dishes, the lower
part filled with hot water, and 2 sterno cans beneath each dish to
keep the food warm - when serving, the pans got refilled with hot
food fairly quickly, so the food didn't sit around for long.
Anahita
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 01:36:07 -0600
From: Sue Clemenger <mooncat at in-tch.com>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Casbah! Feast, was Period Couscous References?
This reminds me....many years ago, when Artemisia and Atenveldt were
still one kingdom, I attended an Estrella War, and was kindly hosted by
Duchy Tarragon. They did a lot of this boiling-bag stuff, too, although
(IIRC) you've got to use the right bags--you can actually buy them, and
a gadget that seals them.
The thing I remember most clearly were the omelets (funny, considering
it's another thread going on right now!)....Apparently, at some point
before the war, the household would hold this omelet party, and they'd
pre-make all the omelets. Into a single-serving bag would go X number
of eggs (sans shells, natch), a certain amount of cheese, seasonings,
etc. The bags were then frozen and transported. On the given day, the
omelet bags were boiled, per instructions, and you just slit the bag,
and dumped out this little squarish omelet--a little non-standard
looking, but perfectly tasty, and very easy to prepare.
--Maire, who *should* be packing!
Patricia Collum wrote:
> My girl friend (and Mistress, and war autocrat) fed our household at
> Estrella war this way a couple of years ago. She called it "boiling-bag
> cooking" (I've seen this mundanely before). She had whole coolers filled
> with bags marked with the different days breakfast and dinner entrees in
> roughly 2-people servings.
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 00:51:40 -0700
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
From: david friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Casbah! Feast, was Period Couscous References?
>Yes, I just used regular storage bags. I filled them about half-way
>(that is, i put about 1 gallon of cooked chicken in each two gallon
>bag - easier to handle, as it left bag to grip - i was afraid they'd
>burst if i filled them all the way, from the weight and strain).
>
>I put the bags in the freezer and rotated them every 1/2 hour or so,
>squishing them a bit to distribute the cold, until they got frosty.
>Then i left them to freeze when i was sure they were cold through.
>
>>And then you dropped the bags of food
>>including the plastic into the boiling water to thaw and warm them
>>up???
>
>No, no, no! Would not be safe. We did immerse the bags in hot water,
>though... Someone kept pots of water simmering on a propane stove.
>Then periodically hot water was dipped out and added to the water in
>some large containers we had - tempered with cold water out of the
>spigot. I do not think the plastic the bags were made of would
>withstand boiling.
>Anahita
Sir Nathan in Calontir used to provide period food for the Calontiri
royalty at Pennsic by a version of this approach. I believe he used a
seal-a-meal or something similar, with bags that could be boiled. He
also used a high quality cooler. To cooler was paced with bags of
frozen food. For each meal, he pulled out the required bags and
dumped them, still sealed, in a pot of boiling water.
--
David/Cariadoc
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
From: "Michael Gunter" <countgunthar at hotmail.com>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 11:29:15 -0500
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Freezing food
>You froze the food in regular, store bought plastic zip lock bags?
>Freezer bags or storage bags? And then you dropped the bags of food
>including the plastic into the boiling water to thaw and warm them
>up???
I've done this with most of my feasts. Pre-cook and bag them.
Then, at the feast site either boil-in-bag, microwave or defrost
and reheat. It depends on the dish and kitchen facilities
When cooking for 300+ it is nice to have as many conveniences
as possible. I also know ahead of time just how much food I have
and what things need to be changed before the last minute.
Of course it makes for some pretty late nights a few weeks before
the feast and you need some place to keep it frozen. ("Excuse me,
could we borrow your freezer? We have 50 gallons of Chicken
Bruet that needs a home.)
>The bags don't melt? Or
>break open strewing the food into the boiling water? Hmmm.
Get heavy duty freezer bags. And I sometimes double bag them
just to be safe.
>THLord Stefan li Rous
Gunthar
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 09:45:51 -0700
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Casbah! Feast, was Period Couscous References?
David/Cariadoc wrote:
>Sir Nathan in Calontir used to provide period food for the Calontiri
>royalty at Pennsic by a version of this approach. I believe he used a
>seal-a-meal or something similar, with bags that could be boiled. He
>also used a high quality cooler. The cooler was paced with bags of
>frozen food. For each meal, he pulled out the required bags and
>dumped them, still sealed, in a pot of boiling water.
Yes, Fabian is considering buying a Seal-A-Meal set up. The plastic
used for this can withstand both freezing and boiling and, i think,
microwaving, and the bags are heat sealed so they're less likely to
pop open. So this is safer in several ways than using zip-shut
plastic bags.
He has a household and is thinking how convenient this would be for
feeding the household at events - cook the food *well* ahead of time,
freeze it, and pull out and pop it in the cooler for an event, then
heat up the water and drop it in.
I think this is a good idea for camping events, although i'd *never*
do this for a feast... well, if various folks are cooking dishes
ahead of time, some things can withstand home freezing - which takes
longer than commercial, often forms ice crystals in the food which
can change the texture to mushy, and if the packets aren't properly
sealed the food gets freezer burn and tastes like the other stuff in
the freezer...
The meatballs were fine and the White Tharidah seemed not to suffer
from being frozen for 2 days. But some things just don't survive home
freezing without getting a weird texture.
Anahita
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 13:04:25 -0400
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
From: Gorgeous Muiredach <muiredach at bmee.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Freezing food
>I've done this with most of my feasts. Pre-cook and bag them.
>Then, at the feast site either boil-in-bag, microwave or defrost
>and reheat. It depends on the dish and kitchen facilities
Hate to be the one to raise attention to this again, but...
Ya got to be careful how you do it. It works fine, and I've used that
technique before. Just make sure that
a)your contents are defrosted before you re-warm them
and
b)you use actual boiling water, not just lukewarm water...
BTW, saranwrap and other wraps don't melt in boiling water, so just about
any ziplock bag should handle boiling water without flinching. It's always
a good idea to *under* bag though. If you fill the poor thing to the brim,
it'll just want to explode ;-)
Gorgeous Muiredach the Odd
Clan of Odds
Shire of Forthcastle, Meridies
mka Nicolas Steenhout
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 13:09:59 -0400
From: "Sandra Kisner" <sjk3 at admin.is.cornell.edu>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] boiling bags
>BTW, saranwrap and other wraps don't melt in boiling water, so just about
>any ziplock bag should handle boiling water without flinching. It's always
>a good idea to *under* bag though. If you fill the poor thing to the brim,
>it'll just want to explode ;-)
It's been a long time since I tried boiling something in a bag, but I seem to recall that the problem was the bag touching the side of the pot, not the hot water, causing melting problems. Is this the case in the experience of anybody else?
Sandra
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:33:37 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Pixel, Goddess and Queen" <pixel at hundred-acre-wood.com>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Freezing food
> BTW, saranwrap and other wraps don't melt in boiling water, so just about
> any ziplock bag should handle boiling water without flinching. It's always
> a good idea to *under* bag though. If you fill the poor thing to the brim,
> it'll just want to explode ;-)
>
> Gorgeous Muiredach the Odd
Actually, I've had otherwise brand new out-of-the-box Hefty freezer bags
die on me when the side seams came apart. I probably should have waited
until the stew had cooled a bit more, but it wasn't boiling. It was hot to
the touch but not so hot that I couldn't taste it without cooling. Once
there was more than a ladle's worth of stew in the bag, it split open.
Margaret the Perfectly Normal
From: Marilyn Traber <marilyn.traber.jsfm at statefarm.com>
To: "SCA-Cooks (E-mail)" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:37:47 -0500
Subject: [Sca-cooks] seal-a-meal
I have had a seal a meal off and on since teh original 'daisey' seal-a-meal
back in teh early 80s.
I currently have the one they were flogging on TV about 5 years ago.
I heartily recommend them. Mine hasn't gotten used in the last couple of
years, but when I worked for US Foodservices and tended to get either whole
uncut slabs of meat, or teh 40 count chicken breasts, and cases of veggies
it was amazingly useful.
Best [IIRC} 150$US investment.
margali
From: "Patricia Collum" <pjc2 at cox.net>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] boiling bags
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 11:07:17 -0700
> It's been a long time since I tried boiling something in a bag, but I
> seem to recall that the problem was the bag touching the side of the pot,
> not the hot water, causing melting problems. Is this the case in the
> experience of anybody else?
>
> Sandra
We actually clothespinned the top of the bag to the side of the pot. This
kept the contents submerged better, and we could tell our serving by the
spot we had clothespinned it to. No melting problems, but we did 1) make
sure the water was boiling before the bags were added, 2) limit the number
of bags in at a time so they wouldn't cool the water too much. This led to a
bit of a line (like at the microwave at lunchtime at work) even with 2 large
soup pots of water going. Sometimes the bags would boil free of their
clothespins- look out, you're lunch is escaping!
Cecily
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 14:01:08 -0400
From: "Nick Sasso" <NJSasso at msplaw.com>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Freezing food
I completed my food safety certification this summer (and it was a
hoot), so I I want to add a few documentable cents' worth. Please be
sure that you are handling the food properly according to food agencies'
guidelines to be sure you are serving safe food. The general guideline
of thawing before cooking is safe, but not required according to the
June 2002 materials provided by Serv-Safe, the industry standard in
Restaurant Food Safety training.
According to the manual and the standards for the training, thawing of
a food product can be performed as a step in the cooking process, and
the previously cooked food needs to be brought up to 160F in order to be
ensured safe by their guidelines (I can provide chapters and verses if
requested). You should bring the food through the 40F to 140F zone as
quickly as possible, and stir or agitate often. Boil in bag will be a
challenge if large quantities are brought to heat at once . . . . gotta
ensure even heat distribution for safe reheating.
The key will be to follow safe freezing and storage techniques at the
front end to increase convenience and safety at the back end. Cool you
food in flat containers, no more than 2 to 3 inches deep, depending on
food item. If you were to put your food into the bag and then lat flat
to cool then freeze, you will have a much safer reheat on the back end.
Melting is but one issue for plastics. Remember that there is chemical
leeching that can occur before melting. This could lead to anything
from nothing at all to off flavors to your wonderful meal to adverse
physical reactions in diners sensitive to plastics or their degraded
by-products. There are products on the market designed for reheating,
and often can be re-used for economy sake. So, you get to make the
choice yourself (testing might be good here) as to what products you
wish to store and heat in.
fra niccolo difrancesco
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:08:23 -0700
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
From: david friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Freezing food
>I've done this with most of my feasts. Pre-cook and bag them.
>Then, at the feast site either boil-in-bag, microwave or defrost
>and reheat. It depends on the dish and kitchen facilities
>When cooking for 300+ it is nice to have as many conveniences
>as possible. I also know ahead of time just how much food I have
>and what things need to be changed before the last minute.
What we have tended to do is a partial pre-cook. One of our favorite
soups, for example, is A Pottage from Meat (Platina). It's basically
a meat broth thickened with bread crumbs and eggs. We do everything
prior to the thickening, freeze it, then for the feast thaw, heat and
thicken.
--
David/Cariadoc
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
From: "Barbara G. Dodge" <awench1 at cox.net>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 21:54:00 -0400
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Boil in Bag
If you have a large kettle with a pasta insert, this would solve the problem
of the bags touching the sides of the kettle and make for easier retrieval.
> It's been a long time since I tried boiling something in a bag, but I
> seem to recall that the problem was the bag touching the side of the pot,
> not the hot water, causing melting problems. Is this the case in the
> experience of anybody else?
Sandra
From: "Phlip" <phlip at 99main.com>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Boil in Bag
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 22:06:51 -0400
This is the first I'd seen of this thread or difficulty.
The only reason you should have that sort of difficulty with a boil in bag
is if you don't use a pot to boil the water in that's big enough. The boil
in bag should be free to move about, rather than being jammed in place- not
only does that allow more even heating of the contents, but the nature of
water as a calorie absorbant prevents hot spots on the side of the pot.
Phlip
From: "Phlip" <phlip at 99main.com>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Boil in Bag
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 14:11:17 -0400
> So where does one find bags for boiling...other than the seal a meal type.
I have looked in every grocery store I have been to and cant find anyting.