vegetables-msg - 4/6/08 Medieval vegetables. Recipes. NOTE: See also the files: root-veg-msg, peppers-msg, vegetarian-msg, turnips-msg, leeks-msg, lentils-msg, peas-msg, beans-msg, gourds-msg, beets-msg, lettuce-msg, artichokes-msg, greens-msg, salads-msg, mushrooms-msg, olives-msg, onions-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: Sabia <sabia at unm.edu> Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 14:46:54 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Re: SC - Question(long,Iamsorry) > Please do! I have never seen a white gazpacho, and I am intrigued! > > Alys of Foxdale Shire of Stierbach, Kingdom of Atlantia > mka Sallie Montuori Chantilly, Virginia, USA > foxdale at wolfstar.com Ok, first sorry I am so slow to get back to you, second, the following recipes are Not redacted by me, and are from modern cookbooks, but the citings they list are'nt bad. 1} The Spanish Cookbook by Barbara Norman, Bantam Books/Atheneum Publishers 1967. This one I haven't tried yet the next one works wonderfully. Ajo Blanco Con Uvas(Malagan Gazpacho) 4-5 servings 1 1/4 cups raw scalded almonds 2 medium cloves Garlic white part of four slices bread(soaked in wine vinegar and squeezed) 4 cups ice water 2/3 cup olive oil 7 to 8 peeled white grapes per serving Using a mortar, pound almonds with garlic and bread, gradualy add olive oil, strain, and stir in ice water. Serve very cold with seven or eight peeled white grapes in each soup plate. If you use an electric blender, mix all ingrediants except grapes simultaneously untill almonds are ground as fine as possible; strain and serve as above. {2} The Foods & Wines of Spain by Penelope Casas, Alfred A Knopf New York 1987 Gazpacho Extremeno(white gazpacho) serves six 1 egg 1/4 teaspoon sugar 4 slices white bread crust removed 2 tablespoon red wine vinager 7 tablespoons olive oil 2 tablespoon whitewine vinager 2 cloves garlic peeled cut in 1/2 salt 1 green pepper, seeded cut in strips 1/2 cup ice water 2 small Kirby cucumbers, or 1 cucumber chopped cucumber and pepper peeled and cut in chunks for garnish and croutons Vegetable Broth (3 cups) place the egg in the bowl of a processor or blender, beat until light colored. Soak the bread slices in cold water. Squeeze throughly to extract most of the moisture. With the moter running, add the oil to the processor in a thin stream, then add the bread, garlic, green pepper, cucumber, sugar, red and white vinagers, salt, and pepper. Blend until no large pieces remain. Beat in 1 cup of the broth, strain the mixture into a large bowl pressing with a wooden spoon to force through as much as possible. stir in the remaining 2 cups of broth and the ice water. Add more vinager and salt if desired. Refrigerate several hours or overnight, then serve very cold with chopped cucumber, green pepper, and croutons. If there is a conflict with the peppers (are any green peppers period) then they can be dropped with out too much substituition, and I did not find it necessary to add extra vinager, but most people in this area (al-Barran) don't seem to be used to vinager. it had mixed results, as many people want soup hot, or were taken aback by the wonderful green this comes out. Those who like green, really liked it. If interested check this book out for other varities of this dish (casas) Sabia at unm.edu Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 13:27:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Rooscc at aol.com To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: New World Foods It is tricky determining how quickly a new world food caught on in any particular area of Europe. I've found that garden/household accounts and incidental mentions are more helpful than anything. Watch secondary sources-- they will often say that a plant was "introduced" when they mean "first mentioned" and this isn't the same thing. When you look up that first mention it might say "grows in everyone's garden"! For beans, look for references to staking, red flowers, and other things that wouldn't fit broad beans. In England, "the" potato is the sweet potato--and by the end of our period it was being served at least among the well-to-do. The tomato was known but seems to be a novelty, while squash (and/or pumpkins) appears on Tusser's lists mid-century. Curiously the red beet with a bulbous root was new to Gerard; common beets were white or yellow and eaten as greens. (Even in the 16th, beets often were called by their French name.) I'd like to hear what others have found about particular vegetables. Alysoun Middle Kingdom From: Stephen Bloch <sbloch at adl15.adelphi.edu> Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 22:57:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: SC - Mediterranean Feast > I am doing my first feast in September at Mooneschadowe Guardian. I > want to use a mediterranean theme but I am having a hard time with > vegetables. I am planning to do a marinated fresh vegetable platter > as a first course but I haven't been able to find a vegetable dish I > like to put with either of my meat courses. > About the only other things I'm considering are a > chick-pea dish or a spinach dish but I'm afraid there may be some > hesitation on the part of the populace. Thanks! Both of those ingredients turn up frequently in Platina and the Arabo- Andalusian _manuscrito anonimo_. The _Libre de Sent Sovi_ contains a recipe for chickpeas cooked in almond milk with onions and spices; we haven't worked it out yet. The early 16th-c. Catalan _Libre del Coch_ contains a cooked pottage of spinach and beet greens (and borage, if you can find it) which we served to good reviews at a feast a few months ago; see http://www.adelphi.edu/~sbloch/sca/cooking/st.val.feast.html. mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib Stephen Bloch sbloch at panther.adelphi.edu http://www.adelphi.edu/~sbloch/ Math/CS Dept, Adelphi University From: zarlor at acm.org (Lenny Zimmermann) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 17:42:28 GMT Subject: Re: SC - Mediterranean Feast While not as "Mediterranean" in style as Greece or Turkey, there are an exceptional number of salads and fruit/veggie dishes listing in "The Fruit, Herbs & Vegetables of Italy. An offering to Lucy, Countess of Bedford", by Giacomo Castelvetro. The original is in Italian and written in 1614 (just a hair post period). I tend to have the greatest interest in Late Renaissance Italian cuisine, so this and Platina are my current bibles. ;-) The copy I have is put out by Viking Press, with Introduction and Translation by Gillian Riley (c) 1989 and Foreword by Jane Grigson. ISBN 0-670-82724X. I am not sure if this book is even in print any longer, but Amazon.Com was able to come up with a copy for me. The listings are by season and then, generally, by fruit/herb/veggie. Oh, and one of my favorites is the listing under Sweet Fennel (it has a seed that tastes like licorice): "Fennel Seeds are gathered in the autumn. We flavour various dishes with them, and eat them on their own after meals." So now I always have a little dish with Fennel Seeds to "sweeten the breath" after a feast. It just seems like such a nice little touch. Honos Servio, Lionardo Acquistapace, Barony of Bjornsborg, Ansteorra (mka Lenny Zimmermann, San Antonio, TX) zarlor at acm.org Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 17:30:01 -0700 From: ladymari at GILA.NET (Mary Hysong) Subject: SC - SKIRRETS Hello, well, finally made it to the library after the skirret info. and here it is: "The World Encyclopedia of Food" copyright 1982 L. Patrick Coyle ISBN 0-87196-417-1 (BTW really yummy book.. :-) ...once a herald, always a herald... :-) Page 612 I didn't copy word for word, this is the gist of the entry... Skirret, also Chervin, the roots of Sium sisarum; originated in Eastern Asai, but cultivated in Europe since Roman times. Supposed to have a sweet taste, with a woody core which is removed before cooking [rather like parsnips, I think] The taste is compared to sweet potates. Also dried and ground for a coffee substitute. This is a huge book that has probably *almost* everything ever known to have been eaten for food in the world. If anyone spots a source for it, I would love to get a copy! to keep at home and read. Well, good cooking and happy feasting everyone. Mairi Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 14:33:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Uduido at aol.com Subject: SC - Parsley << There were two different types of parsley mentioned on this list recently, curly and Italian(?). >> Italian Parsley is the parsley used for culinary purposes. It is definately 100 steps above Curly-leaved parsley with regards to flavor and is a standard form. Curly leaved parsley is a relatively modern introduction, has little to offer in the way of flavor and it's only redeeming feature is it's "pretty' appearance. By all means, if you can find Italian parsley snatch it up! You won't be sorry you did. If you are making a decision on which type to use so far as "historically' accurate, Italian (a.k.a. 'Flat Leaved') parsley would be the only choice. Lord Ras Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 15:58:09 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - Seasonal Foods Since we are also talking about cooking the feast in a short time, here is an interesting little recipe which purports to be from the 1300's. I lifted the original out of Herter's Bull Cook and Authentic Historical Recipes and Practices. It is a source chock full of historical inaccuracies and interesting recipes. I think this one is medieval, although I suspect the grease in the recipe would have been an animal fat rather than butter.Danish Cooked Lettuce Into a 2 qt sauce pan with lid, put 1 heaping teaspoon of butter and let it melt.Add ? cup of water, 1 medium onion (finely diced), 8 sticks of celery (diced)Pack leaf lettuce tightly into the sauce panBring to a boil, reduce heat and simmer for 20 minutes.Salt and pepper to taste.Comments:For 30 people, I'd use a 4 qt pan and 3 or 4 heads of lettuce, 1 bunch of celery, 1 or 2 medium onions, 1 bunch of celery, 2 tablespoons of butter, a half cup of water and a little salt.Thoroughly wash the leaf lettuce and celery.Put the water, salt, butter, diced onions and diced celery in the pan, don't worry about melting the butter.Pack the lettuce in on top as tight as you can. It will be looser in the larger pan and should steam faster. Bring it to a boil and then reduce the heat. I usually use a total cooking time of about 10 minutes, so that the lettuce is thoroughly wilted, but not mushy.Stir the lettuce to mix all of the ingredients. Spoon into bowls and serve to the tables.I usually figure about 2 oz. per feaster when making this. It is unusual and people tend to be wary of cooked greens.Don't try to make this dish in advance. It doesn't keep well.Bear Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:48:21 +1000 From: KandL Johnston <woodrose at malvern.starway.net.au> Subject: Re: SC - Ein Guter Spise Cathy Harding wrote: > I am going to be doing a lunch for about 14 people in a couple of weeks and > thought I would use my latest aquisition ( a copy of ein guter spise). > This weekend I showed the recipes to one of the persons in charge to see if > any of the recipes apealed to her. Her observation was that there were few > or no recipes with vegetables (There are some no meat eaters in the group). > My question is does anyone know of german vegetable recipes from this time > period? Baked Mushrooms, mushrooms dragged first through egg whites, then a thin wine batter and fry in hot oil.... Carrots in an Orange Sauce with raisins and orange peel.. I have more but out of time right now. Hope this helps. Nicolette - --------------------------------------- Rudolf von der Drau and Nicolette Dufay Baron and Baroness, Stormhold Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 13:05:30 -0400 From: marilyn traber <margali at 99main.com> Subject: Re: SC - below the salt My version of Cassoulet d'isignie In a large pot place a bag of white beans, a large onion with 4 whole cloves stuck into it, a smoked ham hock, 2 whole carrots, 2 ribs of celery and a gauze wrapped bouquet garni of 2 bay leaves, a sprig of rosemary, a sprig of thyme, and a whole bulb of garlic peeled but not chopped and a half gallon of chicken stock. Simmer but not boil for about 1 hour. Test the beans, you want them firm and just past the crunchy stage. When the beans are 'done', drain and reserve the broth for a different recipe to follow : line a basic covered casserole with bacon, and cut up beef, pork loin, lamb into 1/2 inch dice, a fresh large onion coarsly chopped and layer starting with beans and ending with beans. Top with about an inch of seasoned bread crumbs, arrange small garlic sausage slices and legs of chicken on top, dot with butter, cover and bake for 2 hours at 300 f . potage puree des haricots take the broth from the cassoulet, put a bag of white beans in and cook til soft. Puree the beans, simmer for another 15 minutes with the same composition bouquet garni as above and enough stock to make a thick creamy soup. Fry up some bacon and make crumbles for garnish, and blend some parlsey and lemon zest into real butter[imitations need not apply...] Take the soup off the burner, add 1/4 cup heavy cream and top with pats of the seasoned butter and bacon crumbles. sit back and listen to the capillaries scream for mercy/. margali Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:48:53 +0000 From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net> Subject: Re: SC - Coriander vs. cilantro And it came to pass on 28 Oct 97, that LrdRas at aol.com wrote: > A better question would be <does anyone out there have a period > recipe from the barbarous Europeans the uses cilantro as an > ingredient?> :-) > > <blinking innocently as I adjust my turban> > Ras ::Smiling sweetly:: Here are three, for a start. They are from the 1529 edition of the "Libro de Guisados". The translation is mine; I have not tried redacting any of these. POTAJE DE CULANTRO LLAMADO PRIMO - Pottage of Coriander Called the First You will take dry and green coriander and pound it all together in a mortar; and then take well toasted almonds; and pound them well together with the coriander; and a crustless piece of bread toasted and soaked in white vinegar; and pound it all together, and after pounding it take a hen which has been cooked in a pot and take the breasts from the hen; and pound them all together with the other things; and when everything has been pounded, strain it all through a woolen cloth, and when everything has been strained through, put it in the pot where it must cook and cast in a good quantity of sugar; and of all fine spices which are good, strained through with the other things and cook it on the hearth; and put in the pot nutmeg and mace and cinnamon and ginger and cloves; and when it is cooked remove it from the fire and cover it, as if it were rice, and let it rest; and then prepare dishes, and cast sugar and cinnamon upon them. OTRO POTAJE DE CULANTRO LLAMADO CELIANDRATE SEGUNDO - Another Pottage of Coriander Called the Second Celiandrate Take dry coriander seed, and clean it and grind it well in a mortar, and then take well prepared almonds, and pound them well with the coriander, and when everything is well pounded, put these ground spices with it: cinnamon, ginger and cloves: and when it it well ground, dissolve the sauce with the juice of sour oranges and sweet white grapes, so that it is not very sour; and put it on the hearth to cook, and sample the taste, which must be between sour and sweet; and the color of this sauce must be a gray color, and this sauce is good for roast partridges and chickens, and upon the sauce [put] sugar and cinnamon. OTRO POTAJE DE CULANTRO LLAMADO TERCIO - Another Pottage of Coriander Called the Third You must take green coriander, and cut it finely, and pound it in a mortar at the same time as dry coriander; and then take toasted almonds and toasted hazelnuts, and pound them separately in a mortar; and when they are pounded, mix them with the almonds; and resume pounding it all together; and when it is well pounded, pas it through a woolen cloth; and set it to cook in the pot, and cast in all fine spices with saffron; and vinegar and sugar, and set it to cook with little fire just until it is a little thickened; and remove it from the fire and prepare dishes and upon them cast sugar and cinnamon. Lady Brighid ni Chiarain of Tethba Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom mka Robin Carroll-Mann *** harper at idt.net Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 14:10:08 -0500 (EST) From: DianaFiona at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Period veges << What is rocket? Mercedes >> Wonderful! ;-) But to be more specific, it's a cool-weather green that combines a savory flavor with sweet and hot all at once. It can, like many greens, get a trifle bitter and strong in the heat, but I'll still take it over mustard any day! Unfortunately, the one time I had enough to try a pesto with it, the grinding seemed to destroy the flavor......... :-( Ldy Diana Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 10:15:20 -0600 From: Maddie Teller-Kook <meadhbh at io.com> Subject: Re: SC - Request for documentation: Honey Glazed Vegetables Michael F. Gunter wrote: > I would like to do mashed parsnips and carrots for my 12th Night feast but > I don't have any documentation for it. I'm pretty sure a carrot/parsnip dish > is period but I would prefer having a source for it. > > Gunthar Gunther, This recipe is from Terence Scully's latest cookbook: Early French Cooking. This recipe is a redaction from the Menagier de Paris. Honey Glazed Vegetables: for 5 lbs vegetables: 1 lb each (or chose any mix of a total = 5 lbs). Turnips, carrots, squash (I used zucchini, i know its not period but it really worked in the recipe and Scully listed it), fennel root, parsley root and/or parsnip. cook all vegetables in a pot with a little water, bring to boil and cook until almost tender. Add 20 tablespoons honey (1 1/4 cups). Reduce heat and stir. Simmer until liquid has almost evaporated. Shake the pan to assure honey is coating all the vegetables. I did this dish for the Noble's Dinner at Bryn Gwlad's fall event. It was a success. Give it a try. meadhbh Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 16:59:00 +1000 From: Robyn Probert <robyn.probert at lawpoint.com.au> Subject: Re: SC - re:period recipes TOMC = The Original Mediterranean Cuisine TFCC = Two Fifteenth Century Cookery Books Asparagus... Fried Asparagus TOMC Aspargus with Shallots TOMC Fennel... Fennel and Leek TOMC Broccili with Fennel TOMC Rowan Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 23:37:20 EDT From: KKimes1066 <KKimes1066 at aol.com> Subject: Re: SC - Re: Problems! Rhubarb is illustrated in Tacinum Sanitatis as well as several other herbals. It's "period", period. Percival Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 22:34:58 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - Armored Rape??? > This is my current "BIG project". What you are looking for is COLEWORTS. > I have several pictures of this plant, in manuscripts and woodcuts. But, > it has been replaced by the hybrid Brassicas we are familiar with today. As > far as my research has gone, crossing a loose leafed cabbage and mustard > greens should get me back to something very close to coleworts. This is going > to take a few years, but if/when I am successful, I'll let anybody in the SCA > have seeds for free. > > Just a gardening fool, > Percival Coleworts is a linguistic variation of collards, Brassica oleracea var. acephala (this variation covers all of the headless cabbages such as collards, kale, kohlrabi, etc.). Collards and kale are about the closest cabbages to the sea kale (Crambe maratima) which is believed to be ancestor of all modern cabbages. Sea kale is still grown, so if you really want to go into a breeding project, you might want to get some and breed for the variant you desire. BTW, most of the Brassicas are not hybrids but variants, being all the same species (oleracea) but having been selectively bred for specific traits. Hybrids are generally created by inter-species crossbreeding. Bear Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 21:44:29 -0700 From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" <acrouss at gte.net> Subject: Re: SC - a question [Bogdan asked for a recipe using mulberries.] Epilario uses a syrup of mulberries with a dish of peas. Yum! #53: To fry pease with Bacon Take the pease cod and all as they are and boyle them, and take a little Bacon larded with fat, and cut it into Collopes, then fry it a little with the aforesaid pease, adding thereto a little Verjuice, Sugar, or sirope of Mulberies, and a little Sinamon. In this sort also are white pease fried. - --Anne-Marie Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 19:14:22 EDT From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: SC - Will's- more recipes Here are the few recipes my co-feastocrat at Will's Revenge, His Lordship Thorstein, was willing to share. :-) Sorry for the lack of documentation but this isn't my work. Enjoy. They are wonderful. :-) Honey glazed vegetables 1 lb. choice of vegetables 4 tbs. honey Garnish sprigs of parsley or fennel or saffron threads Directions will vary according to your choice of veggies Peel turnips, cut into smaller pieces Pare and slice carrots Slice squash in half, remove seeds & peel; cut into slices Peel outer skin of fennel root, slice; remove hard center core Peel parsley root and cut into slices Cook all vegetables in a medium pot in as little water as possible: bring to a boil and cook until almost tender. Stir in honey and reduce heat. Simmer until liquid has almost evaporated. Shake pan to ensure the honey has coated all the vegetables. Garnish and serve <snip of other recipes> Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 11:54:59 -0400 From: Phil & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - SC-green beans? Mike and Gail Young wrote: > Could anyone tell me if green beans are period. I have a recipe for green > beans and almonds that was served at a feast I attended once but I am > trying to do documentation on a feast I am preparing. Any help would be > greatly appreciated. > Lady Gwyneth Blackrose > Gail Young Through most SCA period, the legumes generally available to Europeans were fava beans, chick peas, lentils, and various types of peas. New World beans (the haricot bean, of which our green bean is a type) seem to occur in period recipes only in the last quarter of the sixteenth century, at best, and I'm not aware of green (in other words, immature) haricots being eaten in the shell or pod in period. On the other hand, baby fava beans in their shells, fresh green fava beans, shelled, and baby peas in their peascods, all do seem to have been eaten in period, generally boiled very briefly and eaten with butter, butter and vinegar, or vinegar and oil. This would generally be considered a simple sallat of green beans or peascods. And, in season, a very commendable one. BTW, shelled fava beans still have a leathery husk on each individual bean, and it's kind of a pain to remove, which is why the beans must be young if they're going to be eaten fresh. That, and the fact that the shells or cods have an inner lining to which many people are allergic. But, if you're prepared to go through the hassle, peeled green favas are great, and even are sometimes eaten raw. All that being said, if you were to serve beancods of unknown provenance at your feast, it wouldn't be the end of the world. If someone were so crass as to leave persona to kvetch about the green beans not being period, you can simply refer them to the farmer, and/or point out that pointing out that things aren't period isn't period. Adamantius Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 11:05:53 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - gingered butternut squash soup (Was: Italian Ren Feast) > Seannach asked... > >I just found a modern recipe for gingered butternut squash soup that has > sweet potatoes in it, and am making it tonight to test out.....is there > any way this could be period?< > > Prolly not. It has sweet potatoes in it. But then, I have gotten somewhat > confused as to the legitimacy of yellow potatoes in late period Italy. > Some of us are saying that they were there, and others are saying nay. > > Since I was the original poster for the question of butternut squash being > period (can't find it in Culpeppers or other sources) I too would be > interested in this. > > Micaylah The references I have available suggest that the sweet potato (Ipomoea batatas) entered Italy about 1528 with haricot beans as part of a presentation to Pope Clement VII from Cortez's expedition into Mexico. The butternut squash (Cucurbita moschata) is much more of a problem. Cucurbita moschata is found in Africa, Asia, and both Americas. The genus contains winter squash, some pumpkins, and some gourds. Of particular interest are bottle gourds, which have been found in Egyptian and Mesoamerican tombs. While I have not been able to confirm it, I suspect butternuts are modern variants and bottle gourds or Japanese pumpkin would have been more likely to be used in period. Bear Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 19:16:16 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Vegetable Names Melissa Martines wrote: >If anyone has any documentation or educated guesses about what the following >items are, please let me know. Thanks in advance!! >Rote of persel Parsley root >Rafens radishes >Rapes turnips >Caboches cabbages >Also, did we ever determine if raisin of courance were currents or raisins? Raisins of Corinth are the dried mini-raisins, as opposed to black or red currants, which are berries. Adamantius Crown Province of stgardr, East Kingdom Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:03:57 -0600 From: Helen <him at gte.net> Subject: Re: SC - parsley roots article http://www.detnews.com/1998/food/9804/28/04280037.htm Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 18:05:17 EST From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Vegetable Names mmartines at brighthorizons.com writes: << If I did try to use parsley, any idea how/where to get roots of parsley? >> Most major supermarkets carry parsley root in season. It is not difficult to grow either taking the same care as regular parley.. If you cannot find parsley root substitute the finely chopped stems of Italian parsley which has a similar flavor. DO NOT substitute parsnips because they have a totally different flavor. Ras Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 06:09:37 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - period items > Our British cousins use the term 'vegetable marrow', which may be some > sort of squash. Reading the word 'marrow' made me wonder when that word > came to be used for a veggie as well as the rich stuff inside bones. > > Allison The giant marrow looks like a dark green pumpkin with orange or yellow meat. It shows up in Italian Renaissance paintings during the 16th Century. It is a cucurbita and may be an early adoption from the Americas. Wilson in Food and Drink in Britain places marrows as part of the diet of Roman Britain. This suggests that the term is used to describe varieties of bottle gourds and squash, creating an "interesting" problem in nomenclature. Bear Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 10:27:03 EST From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: SC - Marrows (vegetable) allilyn at juno.com writes: << Our British cousins use the term 'vegetable marrow', which may be some sort of squash. Reading the word 'marrow' made me wonder when that word came to be used for a veggie as well as the rich stuff inside bones. Haven't actually read anything tonight that I think could be the veggie, but it's nice to know these things. Allison >> It is indead a squash variety. The closest modern equivalent would be patty pan squashes so far as texture and flavor although zucchini is a viable sunstitute. Italian edible gourds could also be substituted if they are available in your area or if you had the forethought to plant them in your garden last spring when the subject came up. :-) I have several bags of it in my freezer but I see no way of getting it to you in a frozen condition. :-( It is certainly hard to see the similarities of vegetable marrow to bone marrow given the fact that it is currently the hip thing to undercook vegetables. However, if you cook your squash until it is totally soft and then drain it , the texture is very similar to cooked marrow which could explain the use of the same word. for both plant and animal products. Also the outer skin of a mature squash is very hard and if the squash is cooked whole, opened and the 'marrow' removed, the similarity to hard bone with a succulent interior is even more evident. :-) Ras Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 12:35:50 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Salsify or Oyster Plant LrdRas at aol.com wrote: > Everywhere I looked it simply said it is an > ancient vegetable. Did you try looking it up under the term 'oyster plant'? It > can be grown succesfully whereever carrots and parsnips thrive. I will > continue looking for more info and post it as I find it unless there is > someone else who might be able to help here.. The aptly-named-but-not-always-scholastically-impeccable Waverly Root sez it is believed to be native to the Mediterranean Basin, possibly the African side. IIRC, I have seen no references to salsify in any period source in a language I can understand or otherwise access. I wonder if it's one of those vegetables that began to be cultivated and widely eaten late in period, or possibly later still. Adamantius Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 13:35:14 -0500 From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow) Subject: Re: SC - Salsify or Oyster Plant ><snip>>IIRC, I have seen no references to salsify in any period source in a >language I can understand or otherwise access. I wonder if it's one of >those vegetables that began to be cultivated and widely eaten late in >period, or possibly later still. > >Adamantius Hello! I looked it up in Gerard & Parkinson under its Latin name, Tragopogon luteum. In English of the time it was commonly known as Goats-Beard or Go-to-bed-at-noon. Other names include Joseph's flower, Star of Jerusalem, Noone-tide, Sassefrica (Italian), Barba Cabruna (Spanish), and Barbe de bouc (French). Gerard says it was imported and is grown in gardens as an ornamental & for their roots. Both mention that there are two kinds, the purple & the yellow. (The purple one is T. purpureum.) >From Gerard, p. 736: "The roots of Goats-beard boyled in wine and drunke, asswageth the paine and pricking stitches of the sides. The same boyled in water vntill they be tender, and buttered as parsneps and carrots, are a most pleasant and wholsome meate, in delecate taste farre surpassing either Parsneps or Carrot: which meate procures appetite, warmeth the stomacke, preuaileth greatly in consumptions, and strengthneth those that haue been sicke of a long lingring disease." Cindy Renfrow Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:10:13 -0600 From: Helen <him at gte.net> Subject: SC - salsify photo http://wwwrce.rutgers.edu/weeddocuments/salsify.htm Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 22:27:59 EST From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - source for Salsify him at gte.net writes: << Where does one get the roots of salsify and are they still in season in May? >> I get mine at Giant Market and I grow them. :-) I doubt that they would still be available in May. They have a lonnnnnnnggggg growing season (approximately 120 days) and are pretty much seasonal. You might discuss it with the produce manager at your market or talk to the produce people at Wegman's. Wegman's will order stuff for you that they don't normally carry (e.g. eels) You might be able to purchase them now. Clean them, slice them and blanch them then put them in the freezer for later use. They freeze really well. Ras Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 09:11:55 EST From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: SC - Salsify-update and useful info Master A, your suppositions about Salsify appear to be accurate. I found this in the Visual Food Encyclppedia: "Although known in southern Europe for more than 2000 years, salsify was not cultivated until the 17th century. It was introduced into North America by the Pilgrims, but remains relatively unknown even today." Also anyone working with Salsify might consider the fact that it blackens on contact with the air after being peeled and cut. To prevent this they should be plunged into vinegar or lemon water or boiled for 15 mins. before peeling and preparing them. Helen, given the above info, I would recommend preparing the vegetable in advance for long term storage in the freezer. My apologies for not remembering this in my earlier post as I normally automatically use Froit Fresh or ascorbic acid baths for all my fruits and vegetables when processing them and it completely slipped my mind. :-0 Ras Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:08:42 -0500 From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net> Subject: Re: SC - Salsify-update and useful info My copy of "Larousse Gastronomique the Encyclopedia of Food, Wine and Cookery" in English translation (Prosper Montagne, Crown Publishers, Inc. NY 1961 Library of Congress Cat. # 61-15788) says that what is called Salaify is actually two plants the "...root of the plant of the Compositae family which alone is entitled to it, but also for that of another plant on the same family which botanically is called scorzonera." The entry goes on to say that the flesh of the roots of both plants are very similar in taste and are prepared in exactly the same way. The word Scorzonera comes from Catalan "escorso" or in English viper as it was formerly believed to be a specific against its bite. The entry in my edition provides 11 recipes. Copies of Larousse Gastronomique, at least in West Palm Beach, can often be found in the book secions of charity thrift stores for about $5 or $6 if you keep your eye out for it, about $20 in used book stores and over $75 new. Daniel Raoul Le Vascon du Navarre' Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:21:20 -0000 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" <nannar at isholf.is> Subject: Re: SC - Salsify-update and useful info The bothanical names are Tragopogon porrifolius (salsify, oyster plant) and Scorzonera hispanica (scorzonera, black salsify). True salsify has brown skin and the flowers are purple. There was another salsify type, Tragopogon pratensis, yellow goatsbeard (which has yellow flowers), that was eaten in the seventeenth century but that is now largely forgotten (as food, that is). There seems to be a long history of confusion between these two types, as their taste and uses is very similar, but they do not even belong to the same genus of plants. Colin Spencer says in his Vegetable Book about scorzonera: "It was not cultivated much before the seventeenth century. One of the first to mention it is John Evelyn, who refers to it as viper-grass. After pointing out its medical virtues, Evelyn goes on to say how good it is stewed with beef marrow, spice and wine. He also says how pleasant it can be raw in a salad. ... It came from Spain and crept into the rest of Europe, especially France, Belgium and England, whose herbalists and gardeners all took an interest in it at the end of the sixteenth century. The astonishing fact is that the flavour is hardly distinguishable from salsify and, once peeled and cooked, I would defy anyone to tell the difference." Nanna Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 04:04:22 -0000 From: <nannar at isholf.is> Subject: Re: SC - Salsify-update and useful info nannar at isholf.is writes: ><< It came from Spain and crept into the rest of Europe, > especially France, Belgium and England, whose herbalists and gardeners all > took an interest in it at the end of the sixteenth century. >> > >I found the mention of Belgium above especially interesting due to the fact >that in the current middle ages Belgium is the world's leading producer of >salsify. That a food fad would last for 400 years is mind boggling. :-) > >Ras Yes and no. Even if Belgian herbalists/gardeners took an interest, it may not exactly have become a fad. To quote Jane Grigson: "The odd thing is that neither vegetable (salsify & scorzonera) has ever really caught on, at least with the general public. Intelligent gardeners, from John Evelyn onwards, have always grown either salsify or scorzonera. People who write books on gardening have been pushing them from the 17th to the 20th century, but outside a few specialized and resourceful greengrocers shops one can rarely buy them." So maybe it just took the Belgian general public 400 years to catch on? Nanna Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 00:04:05 -0800 From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com> Subject: Re: SC - Okra At 1:48 AM -0500 2/21/99, Philip & Susan Troy wrote: >Cathy Harding wrote: >> A qustion came up after dinner tonight. Where does okra originate? Would >> it have been available or used in the area which is now armenia or other >> parts of the middle east prior to 1600? Does anyone have references to it >> in period recipes? >> >> We have looked in the Andalusian recipes in the Miscellany, and did not >> find it. > >Off the top of my head, I believe okra is of African origin. It is now >common across North Africa and the Middle East, but I don't know how >common it is, or was, in Spain. Dried okra is, I think, a common Middle >Eastern staple (I can buy it strung on threads in the local Lebanese >grocery), and it seems like this would be a good way to ship it to >places where it is inconvenient to grow it, if it was something people wanted. > >Of course, the absence of a given food from the Andalusian recipes >sampled in The Miscellany doesn't necessarily mean they're absent from >the primary source. It may simply be that His Grace and/or his team-mate >redactors haven't gotten to an akra recipe yet, or that okra may appear >in another recipe collection from Al-Islam. 1. It doesn't appear in the Charles Perry translation of the Andalusian cookbook. 2. According to Harold McGee's book, okra is native to tropical Africa and Asia, was cultivated in Egypt in the 12th c., but there is no mention of it in "ancient western sources." David Friedman Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 09:07:53 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - Okra > Off the top of my head, I believe okra is of African origin. It is now > common across North Africa and the Middle East, but I don't know how > common it is, or was, in Spain. Dried okra is, I think, a common Middle > Eastern staple (I can buy it strung on threads in the local Lebanese > grocery), and it seems like this would be a good way to ship it to > places where it is inconvenient to grow it, if it was something people > wanted. > > Adamantius > stgardr, East Root comments that African slaves introduced okra to the New World from Africa and the plant was brought to Europe from there. It is tied to an African religious sect, Candomble, which was transferred to Brazil. The name appears to be derived from "nkruman" or "nkrumun," the name for okra in the Twi language of Africa's Gold Coast, primarily Ghana. As an interesting point: "The Horizon Cookbook reproduced an ancient Egyptian painting which was alleged to depict slaves harvesting okra from trellises, but if the fruits shown were supposed to be okra, the Egyptians were very inaccurate painters. I have yet to come across any convincing evidence that okra was known to any literate society before our era, a point in favor of an African rather than an Asian origin, for Asia became literate before Africa did." Bear Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 11:32:32 EST From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Okra charding at nwlink.com writes: << A qustion came up after dinner tonight. Where does okra originate? >> Okra, or gumbo, Hibiscus esculentus L. (syn. Abelmoschus esculentus), is an annual, warm season, frost-susceptible plant belonging to the mallow family, Malvaceae [Malvaceae Images], and is grown for its edible capsules, or seedpods, which are harvested immature. It bears hibiscus-like flowers and large, three- to five-lobed leaves. Okra is thought to be of African or Asian origin, and was used by the Egyptians as early as the 12th century BC. It was probably brought to N. America by African slaves. See http://www.hort.purdue.edu/rhodcv/hort410/okra/ok00001.htm Ras Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 08:54:00 EST From: Seton1355 at aol.com Subject: SC - my medieval dinner party - long Last night I had some mundane friends over and served them a medieval feast. They really enjoyed it and were interested in the background of the recipes. The evening went off well so I thought I'd post the recipes I used. Phillipa <snip of ***Winter Squash or Pumpkin Soup*** recipe> <snip of ***Chicken Ambrogino With Dried Fruit*** recipe> ***Green Poree for Days of Abstainence*** The Medieval Kitchen Redon, Sabban, Serventi University of Chicago Press 1998 Trim, cut up and wash it in cold water without cooking it, then cook it in verjuice and a little water, adding salt. It must be served boiling hot and good and thick. And in the bottom of the bowl, undr the Poree, put some salted or fresh butter and cheese or curd or aged verjuice. 3 1/4 lbs swiss chard leaves*1 2/3 C verjuice OR 1/3 C cider vinegar mixed with 1/3 C water*2 2/3 C water 2 - 6 Tbst butter*3 Wash the swiss chard and then cut into fine strips. Soak in 2 changes of cold water. Add the verjuice and water and salt to a pan and bring to a boil. Cook the swiss chard over a low heat for 20 - 30 minutes. When completely cooked, drain thoroughly. Put the swiss chard into a warm serving bowl. Stir in anywhere from 2 - 6 Tbsp of butter, until the dish seems nice and creamy Check for salt and serve- *1 I used spinach. I didn't have swiss chard and I am allergic to it anyway *2 verjuice, I used 3 parts lemon to 1 part water *3 I used margarine and next time I am going to either really reduce the quantity or leave it out all together. <snip of ***Mashed turnips and parsnips*** recipe> <snip of ***Gingerbread*** recipe> Anyway, this was my menu...oh yes, I also made fried potatoes, no recipe. Everyone liked everything, includeing my picky son! Phillipa Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:47:31 -0800 From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com> Subject: Re: SC - my medieval dinner party - long At 8:54 AM -0500 3/14/99, Seton1355 at aol.com wrote: ... >***Winter Squash or Pumpkin Soup*** >The Medieval Kitchen >Redon, Sabban, Serventi >University of Chicago Press >1998 ... > I just found another pumpkin soup recipe in >this book that I like better. I'll try that next time. You probably already know it, but just in case you don't... . Both pumpkin and winter squash are new world vegetables. The originals of these recipes presumably refer to an old world edible gourd, probably Lageneria Sicereia (sp?), the white flowered gourd. David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ Subject: Rhubarb:Old World or New Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 20:02:20 -0500 From: "BARY E. SEARS" <besears at erols.com> To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org My Good Lord William, Old World for certes. Interestingly (considering some of the more recent threads on culinary predilictions) it may have have originated in Mongolia...Waverly Root sites its origen as definitely northern Asia, but is unwilling to commit beyond that. It is mentioned in a Chinese work, the Pen-king herbal, believed to be dated circa 2700 B.C. It was considered a medicinal plant. By the beginning of the Christian era rhubarb had reached the Western world where both Pliny and Dioscorides mention it, though it wasn't considered an important plant. Thoughout our most of our period, it was considered a medicinal plant, its roots used as a purgative (read laxative) when it was used at all. As late as 1578 it was referred to as "a strange plant cultivated in the gardens of some herborists out of curiosity." Again, according to Waverly Root, the earliest mention of rhubarb as a food may have been in 1597, though it could have been as late as 1636. Unfortunately, people thought that the leaves where edible and could be eaten like spinach. After a false start, and the identification of the stalk as the edible portion, rhubarb entered the market garden as a food stuff. Note: there is a hint that rhubarb stalks were known to be edible earlier and were part of the cuisine of Syria and Persia (there is a reference in Waverly attributed to Ibn-el Beithar -thirteenth century-) to that affect. Rhubarb is a member of the same family as sorrel and buckwheat (both of which contain oxalic acid, though in far lower concentrations). Cordelia Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 18:24:25 -0500 From: LYN M PARKINSON <allilyn at juno.com> Subject: SC - RAISYA at aol.com: Re: skirrets Here is a post from Christianna's friend, after I sent her Duke Sir Cariadoc's recipe on skirrets, and my veggie version, since she didn't have any skirret recipes. The quote she quotes is from the Miscelleny. I thought some of you might be interested in her additional information. Allison allilyn at juno.com, Barony Marche of the Debatable Lands, Pittsburgh, PA Kingdom of Aethelmearc - --------- Begin forwarded message ---------- From: RAISYA at aol.com To: allilyn at juno.com >skirrets are, according to the OED, "a species of water parsnip, formerly >much cultivated in Europe for its esculent tubers." We have never found >them available in the market. The description of skirrets as "a species of water parsnip" doesn't fit with the information I have on them. They're an umbelliferae, which makes them a relative of carrots. The cultivation information I have doesn't fit a water plant. It needs to be kept watered, but that may partly be because the young shoots can be eaten as well as the root, drying out would probably damage their tenderness. It's a Chinese plant in origin, but it was brought to Europe by the Romans. I suspect the Europeans only ate the roots. Carrots are a good substitute, but it's possible you could find skirrets in a Chinese/Asian market. It's a pretty unique food plant, from a gardener's point of view, and I'd love to try growing it, but I haven't found anyone that carries it. If you're interested in it, THE COMPLETE BOOK OF HERBS by Lesley Bremnes, p. 129 has beautiful photos. Raisya Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 23:03:13 -0400 (EDT) From: cclark at vicon.net Subject: Re: SC - Anthro and cooking >Tollhase1 at aol.com wrote: >How similar and different are Chinese noodles, and Italian pasta which >developed from it? Any other examples of similar medieval foods >developing regional variation? Seems like Great Britain vs. the >Continent would provide several examples. There are some spinach recipes that might be worth looking into. Al-Baghdadi (1226) has a recipe for fried spinach (isfanakh mutajjan), which is parboiled in salted water, dried, fried in refined sesame oil, and seasoned with garlic, cumin and coriander seed, and cinnamon. The Forme of Cury (English, about 1390) has a recipe for fried spinach (spynoches yfryed), which is parboiled, dried (by pressing, not just draining), fried in oil (type not specified; I would guess maybe olive or walnut), and seasoned with sweet powder (a spice mix that may have been similar to pumpkin-pie-spice or pudding-spice mixes). According to one contemporary English food writer, all fried foods were sugared before serving - that might apply to this recipe. The main difference between the two recipes is that in the English recipe the seasoning is the same sweet powder that is used for many other English vegetable dishes. I would guess that as spinach was transported northwards to England, the recipe came with it. When the English cooks first encountered spinach, they might have asked "How do you cook it?" and someone told them. And from there they just adapted it to their local style. Later English cookbooks have various other spinach recipes, such as sweet and sour boiled spinach with currants. Alex Clark/Henry of Maldon Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 22:19:50 -0400 From: "Alderton, Philippa" <phlip at morganco.net> Subject: Re: SC - It's Harvest Time Stefan said: >We have talked about turnip greens and beet greens here before. I've wondered how you would get them since in the grocery store these "unwanted" portions are already trimmed off. < They might be down your way, Stefan, but they certainly aren't up here. Granted, you have to look around a bit, but they're here. BTW, if you can't find them fresh, the freezer sections of most grocery stores usually have turnip, mustard and collard greens for sale- you just have to look for them. They're usually in the section with the less flashy packaged vegetables like the 10-12 oz packages of peas, broccoli or spinach. Most of the "unusual" greens taste pretty good cooked with a little ham- you can tell which ones by the long cooking times. Spinach is best fresh, cooked in a sealed pot with just the wash water on them, just barely wilted, beet greens are great cooked with diced beets, a half cup or so of water, not covered, but maybe 1/2-3/4 inch in the pan, and butter and pepper- cook them to just tender. FWIW, Stefan, the seed catalogues are now advertising various root vegetable varieties as being particularly good for their greens. If you want to try to grow beets, seed them way too close and thin them as the summer goes on- take the thinnings, wash them, and serve them up. I honestly like both beets and greens so much, I'm not sure which I like better ;-) Philippa Farrour Caer Frig Southeastern Ohio Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 20:54:27 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - gazpacho and Rome LrdRas at aol.com wrote: > 'made from different herbs and legumes.' Does legumes refer more correctly to > favas and garbanzos? Or more generally to things that grow on vines? More generally even than that! In English, and from a scientific standpoint, legumes are all those nitrogen-fixing seed-poddy things like beans, peas, lentils, etc. However, in most of the Romance languages, AFAIK, the term just means vegetables of any kind. Interestingly enough, the meaning of the Latin term "puls" has changed in an odd way too. Originally it seems to have referred to just about anything that could be, or was, ground and made into porridge or polenta: beans, peas, lentils, and grains. Nowadays grains no longer seem to be so classified, but the peas, etc., remain classified as pulses. Adamantius Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 08:50:36 EDT From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Need help with "Compost" troy at asan.com writes: << I've never grown parsley. Is it a perennial or an annual? Adamantius >> Parsley is neither perennial nor annual. It is a biennial forming a rosette the first year and then sending out flowering shoots the second year. Regardless of it's nature the fact remains that parsley grown for the root is a completely different variety specifically grown for root production while culinary types of parsley such as flat leaf (e.g., Italian) and curly leaf (not period) are grown for their leaves. Carrot, radish, turnip and kohlrabi are examples of other plants which have perfectly edible leaves but the root (or swollen stem in the case of kohlrabi) is the part they are most often grown for. Turnips are sometimes grown for their leaves but when grown for this purpose they are planted closer together and harvested before bulb swelling occurs. As with many plants in the garden, other parts of parsley root may be able to be used for food but why bother when there are varieties that are better suited to the purpose? Certainly, worrying about the loss of secondary parts should not be a factor when harvesting the root. Ras Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 09:31:23 -0700 From: "David Dendy" <ddendy at silk.net> Subject: SC - Rhubarb in Period Quite some time ago someone was inquiring about the use of rhubarb in period cooking, and if I recall correctly the consensus was that it was a post-period innovation, as "pie-plant". This may be correct for western Europe, but I was just re-reading a summary of a mid-13th century Arab cookbook, the "Kitab al-Wusla ila l'Habib" (in Maxime Rodinson, "Recherches sur les documents arabes relatifs a la cuisine", in REVUE DES ETUDES ISLAMIQUES, vol. 17 (1949), and a number of recipes using rhubarb are listed. In Chapter V (Chicken recipes), three recipes for "poulet a la rhubarbe' (chicken with rhubarb) are given, and in Chapter VI (Dry dishes, fried, rissoles, etc.) two for "viande a la rhubarbe" (meat with rhubarb). In a note on the section on Cold Relishes ("bawarid" in Arabic), the editor quotes Najib ad-din as-Samarqandi (a medieval Arab physician, if I recall correctly): "Les bawarid sont des legumes verts cuits que l'on met dans des liquides acides comme le vinaigre, le verjus, le [jus de] sumac, le jus de pommes, le [jus de] rhubarbe et le lait caille (persan "mast")." (which, roughly translated, is "Bawarids are chopped green vegetables which are put in acid liquids like vinegar, verjuice, sumac [juice], apple juice, rhubarb [juice], and yoghurt.") So it seems clearly that at least by the 13th century rhubarb was being used in Middle Eastern cookery, as an acidulant or souring agent. It would surely be the stalks, as today; the leafs are full of oxalic acid, which causes horrible pain if ingested, so it's not the leaves; and the root is a pugative, so it won't be the root. Unfortunately, Rodinson gives only the summary of the cookbook, with only a few full recipes, not including any of the rhubarb recipes. If there is anyone on the list who can read medieval Arabic, it might be possible to get a copy of the cookbook (at least one copy, in the British Museum, has been microfilmed) and translate them (and there are a couple of recipes for spice mixture I'd dearly love translations of, as well). Any other examples? Francesco Sirene David Dendy / ddendy at silk.net partner in Francesco Sirene, Spicer / sirene at silk.net Visit our Website at http://www.silk.net/sirene/ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 13:03:56 -0400 From: "Donald W. Lewis" <don at NATSO.com> Subject: RE: SC - Rhubarb in Period Here is a page that shows many cases of rhubarb being used through history. http://www.rhubarbinfo.com/rhubarb-history.html Donald MacGregor Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 17:30:17 EDT From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: SC - chard lorix at trump.net.au writes: << I have been puzzling over "chard" what exactly is it, is it just spinach? >> Chard is a beet. Not spinach. Swiss chard (noun) First appeared 1832 : a beet (Beta vulgaris cicla) having large leaves and succulent stalks often cooked as a vegetable -- called also chard chard (noun) [modification of French carde, from Provencal cardo, from Latin carduus thistle, cardoon] First appeared 1664 : SWISS CHARD Ras Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 08:59:00 EDT From: WOLFMOMSCA at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - chard lorix at trump.net.au writes: << Might it be known by another name (ie what would supermarkets sell it as), cause I've looked and cannot find, although I have found several varieties of beet? >> It's a winter crop, usually. You'll find it with the "greens" (i.e., turnip, beet, & field). It may be labeled as a field green, in which case you've got to know what it looks like in order to pick it out from the other generic field greens. It's also called just chard, or Swiss chard, depending on your place of residence. Wolfmom Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 08:44:51 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - chard > > : SWISS CHARD > > > > Ras > Might it be known by another name (ie what would supermarkets sell it as), > cause I've looked and cannot find, although I have found several varieties of > beet? > > Lorix Chard is normal sold under that name or as Swiss Chard. If you can't find it with the other greens like lettuce and spinach, the grocery probably doesn't carry it. Bear Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 08:53:17 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - chard > It's called silverbeet here - I had one of those end-of-the-working-day > mental blanks and couldn't remember whether I knew the name as chard from > here or from when I lived in England. Resorted to the Oxford Concise > Australian Dictionary, which says it is called silverbeet, but also known > as seakale beet, which I've never heard of. Hope that helps. > > Kylie I'll have to file that one away. I've never come across either of these names for chard. As a guess, the name, seakale beet, comes from the fact that the leaves resemble sea kale, a wild leafy cabbage, which some botanists believe is the wild ancestor of our cultivated cabbages. Bear Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 09:28:42 -0700 From: "David Dendy" <ddendy at silk.net> Subject: SC - Another Chard Name Lucullus is the name for the green (as opposed to the red-veined) variety of chard, at least in the US and Canada. Francesco Sirene Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 18:56:35 -0000 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" <nannar at isholf.is> Subject: Re: SC - Another Chard Name - -----Original Message----- From: David Dendy <ddendy at silk.net> To: SCA Cooks <sca-cooks at Ansteorra.ORG> Date: 19. oktber 1999 16:37 Subject: SC - Another Chard Name Francesco Sirene wrote: >Lucullus is the name for the green (as opposed to the red-veined) variety of >chard, at least in the US and Canada. Jane Grigson says in her Vegetable Book, under the heading Swiss chard and other leaf-beets, that "in the seakale beet, the stalks are even larger and more pronounced, as its name suggests, than in Swiss chard" - so the names do not seem to be synonymous. She also mentions spinach beet leaf in the same paragraph. And some more varieties - information found at this site : http://www.nfarley.dircon.co.uk/thomas-etty/vegtables/greens.html Leaf or Seakale Beet Perpetual Spinach Introduced around 1790. Valuable on dry soil where true Spinach runs to seed. Lucullus Introduced into cultivation in 1914. Silver or Seakale Beet Noted in 1845, and probably around much earlier, with many of the major seed houses offering 'Improved' varieties by the 1870's. Rhubarb Chard A red stalked variety looking very attractive in a vegetable flower garden setting. Possibly dating from as early as 1857, when a Ruby Chard appears in a contemporary listing. Fordhook Giant Known in the colonies since 1750, this is still one of the most widely grown varieties. Resembles Perpetual Spinach but with darker green leaves. Nanna Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:58:12 EDT From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: SC - Recipe 6-Weekend of Wisdom BROWNED VEGETABLES This recipe was contrived. Numerous mentions of 'Browned Vegetables' are made throughout the feast menus in Le Manegier. My inspiration for this creation was based on a recipe called 'To Fry Beanes' which is found in The Book of Cookerye in Cariadoc's Collection of Medieval and Renaissance Cookbooks, Vol. I, pg. C-7. It was a really good vegetable dish and well received. Makes 88 Servings. 1 gal. Chickpeas, cooked and drained 17 1/2 lb. Carrots, sliced, parboiled, drained 11 lb. Turnips, sliced, parboiled, drained 11 Onions, sliced, parboiled, drained 8 Leeks, sliced, parboiled, drained (white part only) 6 Parsnips, sliced, parboiled, drained 3 lb. Cardoon, sliced, parboiled, drained 5 lb. Swiss chard, chopped, parboiled, drained 3 lb. Butter Salt, to taste Black pepper, to taste Nutmeg, ground (to taste) Mace, ground (to taste) Melt butter in pan. Add vegetables. Saut, turning occasionally until browned and tender. Add seasonings. Ras Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 11:28:53 EDT From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Recipes 5 & 6 BanAvtai at aol.com writes: << Verjuice and Cardoon? >> Cardoon is related to the artichoke. The part used is the leaf stalk. Verjuice is a preparation of the juice of unripe grapes, sorrel, wheat sprouts or crabapples. << Iu'liana >> Ras Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:46:00 -0500 From: Jeff Gedney <JGedney at dictaphone.com> Subject: Re: SC - Late Fall/Early Winter Vegetables I was also concerned about serving a lot of greens at my first feast (the going notion around here is "green stuff is what food eats"), but I went ahead and did it anyway! Guess what? They ate it and they liked it! I used several recipies from an Ordinance of Pottage, which is taken from a manuscript at the Beineke Library at Yale, as my base. See my website describing that event for more info... http://members.iconn.net/~gedney/Recipes/bdayfeas.htm here is how I served the "rabbit food" ( these recipes serve 104 ): Buttured Wortys original: Take al maner of good herbes that thu mayste get. Peke hem, weshe hem, hewe hem; boyle hem in fayre water. Put butter therto, clarified, a grete dele, when they be boyled ynow. Salte hem; let none otemele come theryn. Dyse bred to smale gobbettys, and do in dishes, and powre wortys theruppon, and serve hem forth. My interpretation: Two large bunches Turnip Greens Two large bunches Mustard Greens Two large bunches Collard Greens One large bunch Italian parsely 3 lbs butter About 16 cups plain untoasted white bread croutons Stem and coarsely chop greens and parsely. Lightly Parboil them (until wilted and bright green) and sieve out the water. Melt and clarify butter and mix with the greens. Pour mixture over croutons in bowls, and serve. Sallet (Notes on this recipe: The Common wisdom around my Barony is that salads are not usually eaten, that often almost as much salad is returned to the kitchen uneaten as is sent out. I hoped that that would not be the case, as I wanted to have a green in every course. My philosophy was to have each course more or less complete, with meat, at least one green, and at least one starch, and one sweet thing. There are only so many servings of boiled green stuff that I would eat, so I wanted a nice salad in the second course as a contrast. Since there were no sallet recipes in the source book that I was using (Heiatt and Butler's "An Ordinance of Pottage" which is entirely taken form a single document in Yale's Beineke Rare Book Library), I turned to the roughly contemporaneous "Forme of Cury", and got a nice recipe there. Here I had couple of glitches: I had used up too much of the Vinegar in the Cameline sauce in the frst course, so I was forced to substitute Lemon Juice (which I had on hand) for the vinegar, and I forgot to put in the rosemary) Original Take parsel, sawge, garlec,chibollas,onyons, leeks, borage, myntes, porrectes, fenel, and ton tressis, rew, rosmarye, and purslayne. Lave, and washe hym clene: pyke hem, pluck hem small with thyne honde, and myng hem wel with rawe oyle. Lay on vinegar and salt, and serve hit forth. What I did. 3 bunches of green leaf lettuce 3 large bags of spinach 3 bunches "Italian" flat parsely 4 or 5 large leeks 2 or 3 bunches scallions 2 handfuls fresh mint leaves 2 handfuls fresh sage leaves 2 han