tomatoes-msg - 2/8/08 The eating and cultivation of tomatoes in Europe. NOTE: See also the files: vegetables-msg, Tomatoes-art, tomato-hist-art, pasta-msg, peppers-msg, potatoes-msg, fruits-msg, p-herbals-msg, garlic-msg, seeds-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 10:31:47 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - nightshades > Does anyone have any period evidence for the "tomatoes and potatoes were > not eaten because they were in the nightshade family" story? I suspect it > is an urban legend, but don't actually know. Tomatoes and potatoes were eaten in period in the New World. And there is some evidence potatoes were eaten at the end of the SCA period. Since the potato has been discussed in detail and that discussion is in Stefan's Florilegium, I won't try to repeat it. Columbus found the tomato being used as food and brought them back in 1493. In 1583, the Portuguese introduced then into China and into Japan in 1543. Apparently they were used as an ornamental plant rather than food. Gerard's Herball describes the tomato and he comments on their taste, so apparently, he tried one. (1597) Doubts about eating the tomato first appear in The Gardener's Dictionary by Philip Miller, Gardener to the Worshipful Company of Apothecaries at their Botanick Garden in Chelsea. (1752) In 1812, James Mease, a Tory who relocated to Nova Scotia at the end of the Revolutionary War, published the first recipe for tomato ketchup, which he had originally developed in NJ prior to 1782. He also commented on the French use of tomatoes. Apicius Redivivus; or, the Cook's Oracle (1816) has a version of Mease's recipe. In 1820, Michel Felice Corne, a Neapolitan painter, introduces the tomato to Newport, R.I. In the same year, Robert Gibbon Johnson, president of the Horticultural Society in Salem County, N.J. eats a raw tomato in front of the Salem courthouse. My opinions: The tomato was available within the SCA period, but was not used as a food at that time. Since the potato and the tomato were not described as members of the nightshade family until near the end of the SCA period, being a member of the nightshade family is probably not the reason they were not eaten. (Remember, the people who introduced them to Europe knew they could be eaten safely. They were probably not eaten because there was a limited supply and people did not particularly care for the taste.) The bad press about being nightshades, probably comes later and is probably limited to various localities with vocal proponents of the "deadly tomato". If memory serves me, Jefferson was introduced to tomatoes in France while he was the Ambassador and transplanted some plants to Monticello. The tale of his eating the tomato is probably an urban legend created by someone replacing R.G. Johnson with Thomas Jefferson when telling the tale of the tomato eating. Bear Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 20:03:30 +0000 From: Gilly Subject: RE: SC - nightshades It was written: >> >The tomato was available within the SCA period, but was not used as a food >> >at that time. >> >> Except that it was described, in period, as eaten in Italy fried. > >Interesting. Does it seem to be a localized, late period recipe like the >German recipe for roast potatoes or do fried tomatoes seem to be widely >prepared Italian fare? One of my books quotes a late sixteenth-century English source as saying that the Italians (or possibly the Spanish) made a sauce of tomatoes and used it "as we do mustard." Unfortunately, everything's still in disarray from the move, and I can't even remember which book, let alone lay hands on it. More later.... Alasdair mac Iain Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 11:51:46 -0400 From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow) Subject: SC - RE: tomatoes, was Subing???? > 2. Do you have evidence for the use of tomatoes in Middle Eastern cooking > before 1600? > > David/Cariadoc Hello! There is this from Gerard (originally published 1597, I'm using the 1633 edition, p. 346) describing the 'Apples of Love' (Lycopersicum): "In Spaine and those hot Regions they vse to eat the Apples prepared and boiled with pepper, salt, and oile: but they yeeld very little nourishment to the bodie, and the same nought and corrupt. Likewise they doe eat the Apples with oile, vineger and pepper mixed together for sauce to their meat, euen as we in these cold Countries doe Mustard." Cindy Renfrow/Sincgiefu renfrow at skylands.net Author & Publisher of "Take a Thousand Eggs or More, A Collection of 15th Century Recipes" and "A Sip Through Time, A Collection of Old Brewing Recipes" Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 18:37:35 -0700 From: david friedman Subject: Re: SC - Subing???? At 2:09 PM -0400 5/29/98, Angie Malone wrote: >>The only period reference to eating tomatoes I know of refers to Italy in >>the sixteenth century. I don't know of any period 16th c. Islamic >>cookbooks; there is a 15th c. one which (of course) does not mention >>tomatoes. >What is this period reference? I am curious since I've heard much about >this tomato debate in many SCA circles, but never knew of any sources. I think the modern reference is: Longone, Jan, From the Kitchen, The American Magazine and Historical Chronicle Vol. 3 No. 2 1987-88. My comment in the Miscellany is: "The first European reference to the tomato is apparently one in a book published in Venice in 1544; it describes the tomato as having been brought to Italy "in our time" and eaten in Italy "fried in oil and with salt and pepper."" Which I think was based on Longone. David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 09:33:01 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Subing???? According to Waverly Root's Food, Gerard's Herball (1597, if I remember correctly) described the preparation of tomatoes: "In Spaine and those hot regions they used to eat the Apples prepared and boiled with pepper, salt and oyle: but they yeeld very little nourishment to the body, and the same naught and corrupt." The plant was described by the naturalist Pierandrea Mattioli in 1544 under the name "mala aurea" (golden apple), later revised to "mala insana" (unhealthy apple). In 1578, Henry Lyte reports on tomatoes being grown in England only in the gardens of professional herbalists. John Parkinson over 75 years later (1656) reports that tomatoes were still being grown in herbalists' gardens as ornamentation and curiosities. Bear Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:50:33 EST From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Period Chili On a side note, the first tomatoes were what we now would call cherry tomatoes. Interestingly white tomatoes may have been used as an ornamental plant by the Elizabethans but since this info is from my 20+ plus year old page of notes that mentions the USDA Ag. Yearbook as . the source of info, exact reference will have to wait until and if I find the book. Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:00:33 -0500 From: James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain Subject: Re: SC - old world/new world foods At 21:26 13-1-99 EST, Lady Giuglia Madelena Sarducci wrote: >Tomatoes didn't make it to Italy until the very end of the 16th century >(The Italian Pantry by Anna del Conte, 1990), >so I'm not sure you would want to use them, although I guess you could. Anybody have a copy of *Seven Centuries of English Cooking* (think that's the correct title....) handy? I'm pretty sure that's the book I own (packed away) in which a 16th-century Englishman is quoted as saying that the people of Spain use tomatoes in a sauce "as we do mustard." Laird Alasdair mac Iain of Elderslie Dun an Leomhain Bhig Canton of Dragon's Aerie [southeastern CT] Barony Beyond the Mountain [northern & southeastern CT] East Kingdom Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:38:35 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - old world/new world foods > in which a 16th-century Englishman is quoted as saying that > the people of Spain use tomatoes in a sauce "as we do mustard." > > Alasdair mac Iain "In Spaine and those hot regions they use to eate the Apples prepared and boiled with pepper, salt and oyle: but they yeeld very little nourishment to the body, and the same naught and corrupt." -- Gerard's Herball I suspect this excerpt is part of the quote to which you are referring. It is the only one I remember about how tomatoes were eaten. IIRC, the date is 1596. The first botanical description of the tomato is Italian, written by Pierandrea Mattioli in 1544. He originally referred to tomatoes as "mala aurea" or golden apple, but later used the term "mala insana" or unhealthy apple. Bear Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:13:33 EST From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Tomatos as potherbs margolh at nortelnetworks.com writes: << the tomato is related botanically to the deadly nightshade, which may have something to do with this as well as its reputation. >> Possibly but , IMO, relationship to nightshades most likely has nothing to do with their reputation. Eggplant is also related to nightshade and it was widely used throughout period and its roots, leaves and stems are just as poisonous as any of the New World members of the family.. Ras Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:29:24 EST From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Tomato Theories mermayde at juno.com writes: << I theorize that the earlier fruits of this plant actually WERE poisonous, perhaps more so to some than to others. This might explain why some were able to eat them, while the vast majority viewed them with suspicion and considered them inedible. >> It is certainly possible that any people not used to a new food item would be particularly sensitive to it. In my own case, the first time I ate kiwi fruit, the entire inside of my mouth was covered with timy little blisters within minutes. This does not occur now. While I agree that much has been done in tomato breeding, the original tomato still grows wild in Mexico. It is like a large cherry tomato for lack of a better term the fruits are produced more sparsely than modern varieties. While beef steak type tomatoes have increased dramatically in the past one hundred years there were and are giant sized heirloom tomatos that date from the 1700's that are not beefsteak types and are still available today. So I would suspect that breeding was an on-going process. As early as the Elizabethan era there was a white tomato although no size is mentioned which was most likely used as an ornamental. A good source of old varieties is the Seed Saver's Exchange. Pine Tree and not a few other seed houses carry some heirloom types that date back several hundred years. Bear Creek Nursery is a good source for old time fruit tree varieties. The fact that we have produced new varieties in recent years does not mean that older and original varieties are not still available. It just takes a little serching. :-) Ras Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:16:44 -0500 From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow) Subject: Re: SC - Feast Service >> in which a 16th-century Englishman is quoted as saying that >> the people of Spain use tomatoes in a sauce "as we do mustard." >> >> Alasdair mac Iain > >Well, looking through "Seven Hundred Years of English Cooking", I >couldn't find the reference to tomatoes that you cite here. BUT, I did >find something interesting in the chapter on the 18th Century about Hello! I found it: "Poma Amoris. Apples of Loue. [tomato] ...In Spaine and those hot Regions they vse to eat the Apples prepared and boiled with pepper, salt, and oile: but they yeeld very little nourishment to the bodie, and the same nought and corrupt. Likewise they doe eat the Apples with oile, vineger and pepper mixed together for sauce to their meate, euen as we in these cold Countries doe Mustard." (From Gerard's Herbal, pp. 345-347.) There's a similar quote for horseradish: "...Horse Radish stamped with a little vineger put thereto, is commonly vsed among the Germanes for sauce to eate fish with, and such like meates, as we doe mustard; but this kinde of sauce doth heate the stomacke better, and causeth better digestion than mustard." (From Gerard's Herbal, pp. 240-242.) Cindy Renfrow/Sincgiefu renfrow at skylands.net Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 01:05:02 -0700 From: david friedman Subject: Re: SC - Tomatoes At 10:07 PM -0600 4/13/99, J. Steve Hamaker wrote: >If tomatoes are highly used in the 15th century in southern Italy >and grown wild in England, why can I not find recipes in England or >France that use tomatoes? >Much help appreciated! Tomatoes are a new world vegetable, so not likely to be "highly used" in the 15th century anywhere in Europe. I believe there is a reference to eating tomatoes fried in Italy in the 16th c., in a piece by Jan Longone on the history of the tomato. That is the earliest reference to tomatoes in Europe that I know of. David Friedman Professor of Law Santa Clara University Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 08:15:26 -0400 From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" Subject: Re: SC - Tomatoes And it came to pass on 13 Apr 99,, that Peggy A. Stonnell wrote: > It was being grown in Italy, and eaten, mostly around Naples, which came > under Spanish rule in 1522, but mostly very simpley, sliced, sprinkled > with olive oil, salt and pepper. There seem to be no reciepes using the > tomatoe as it is today until the 1700's. > Isobel fitz Gilbert The 1599 _Arte de Cozina_, is a Spanish cookbook with some New World foods and many Italian dishes, but it does not mention tomatoes as far as I can tell. Lady Brighid ni Chiarain Settmour Swamp, East (NJ) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:22:56 -0400 From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow) Subject: Re: SC - Tomatoes >If tomatoes are highly used in the 15th century in southern Italy >and grown wild in England, why can I not find recipes in England or >France that use tomatoes? >Much help appreciated! > >Jean There is this about tomatoes in Gerard's Herball, 1633 edition, pages 345-347: "Poma Amoris. Apples of Loue. ...In Spaine and those hot Regions they vse to eat the Apples prepared and boiled with pepper, salt, and oile: but they yeeld very little nourishment to the bodie, and the same nought and corrupt. Likewise they doe eat the Apples with oile, vineger and pepper mixed together for sauce to their meate, euen as we in these cold Countries doe Mustard." Mala AEthiopia. Apples of AEthiopia. ...they are vsed for a sauce and seruice vnto rich mens tables to be eaten, being first boyled in the broth of fat flesh with pepper and salt..." (More culinary snippets from Gerard can be found at: http://members.aol.com/renfrowcm/gerardp1.html ) Cindy Renfrow/Sincgiefu renfrow at skylands.net Author & Publisher of "Take a Thousand Eggs or More, A Collection of 15th Century Recipes" and "A Sip Through Time, A Collection of Old Brewing Recipes" http://www.alcasoft.com/renfrow/ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 18:27:40 -0400 From: "Daniel Phelps" Subject: Re: SC - Tomatoes I wonder why they were being called apples? If the potato is any example, "pomme de terre" in French, it may just be because it is round. Vive la morte vive la guerre vive la pomme de terre Daniel Raoul Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 23:40:50 -0500 From: harper at idt.net Subject: Salsa (was Re: SC - Lemonade in Sent Sovi??) Okay, maybe a recipe for tomato-based salsa isn't too outrageously OOP after all.... I was looking at a text in the Virtual Cervantes library, a history of the exploration of New Spain by Francisco Cervantes de Salazar. I don't know when it was written, but Salazar died in 1575. http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/servlet/SirveObras/45201728150540421263 8516/index.htm He says, in the chapter on plants of the New World: "El agÌ sirve de especia en estas partes; es caliente, ayuda a la digestiÛn y a la c·mara; es apetitoso, y de manera que los m·s guisados y salsas se hacen con Èl; usan dÈl no menos los espaÒoles que los indios. Hay unos agÌes colorados y otros amarillos; Èstos son los maduros, porque los que no lo son, est·n verdes, hay unos que queman m·s que otros. Los tomates son mayores que agraces; tienen su sabor, aunque no tan agrio; hay unos del tamaÒo que dixe, y otros grandes, mayores que limas, amarillos y colorados; Èchanse en las salsas y potajes para templar el calor del agÌ." "The chile serves as spice in these regions; it is hot, aids the digestion, and the evacuation of stool; it is appetizing, and in such a manner that most of the stews and sauces are made with it; the Spaniards use it no less than the Indians. There are some red chiles, and others which are yellow; these are the mature ones, for those which are not [mature] are green, there are some which burn more than the others. The tomatoes are bigger than unripe grapes, they have their [same] flavor, although not as sour; there are some which are the size I said, and others that are big, larger than limes, yellow ones and red ones; they cast them in the sauces and pottages to temper the heat of the chile." He also talks about how they make tortillas out of corn, so maybe chips are too farfetched, either. But it's still not from Sent Sovi, nor is this evidence that they were eating such things on the other side of the Atlantic. Lady Brighid ni Chiarain Settmour Swamp, East (NJ) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 14:12:58 EST From: Trierarch at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Tomatoes In a message dated 21-Nov-00 9:09:37 PM Pacific Standard Time, ddfr at best.com writes: << As late as 1753, an English writer describes tomatoes as "a fruit...eaten either stewed or raw by the Spaniards and Italians and by the Jew families in England." But another writer, at about the same time, asserts that the tomato is "now much used in England," especially for soups and sauces. >> The common tomato is Native to Central America and Mexico. It was introduced to native Americans who cultivated the fruit in the 18th Century. The unripe fruit as well as the leaves and the stems of the plant contain a toxic alkaloid and are indeed poisonous. Nevertheless, a variety of the tomato did find its way into Italian cooking by the 16th Century: the Italians named it 'Pomodoro' meaning Golden Apple. The actually name 'tomato' is derived from 'tomalt' or 'Nahuatl' in the language of the Aztecs. Fortin, Francois/Macmillan, Encylcopedie Visuelle des Aliments, Quebec/Amerique International, pg. 66-67, 1996. Donegal Arias Massalla, Califia Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 23:51:56 -0500 From: Gaylin Subject: SC - Gerard/Johnson on Tomatoes His Grace, Good Master Cariadoc asked concerning tomotoes: > What, for example, does Gerard's Herbal say? Nothing about them being poisonous. Page 346, Book 2 is where it is mentioned in the 1633 edition by Thomas Johnson. I haven't pieced the info on how to determine which is Gerard's info and which is Johnson's, so (1) anyone who can help, jump right in and (2) take it for what it's worth as possibly OOP info from Johnson. There's a lot of text on how the plant is cold in the coldest degree. The entry mentions both red and yellow fruits at the very beginning. In the virtues section, the very last part of the entry, it is mentioned that they are eaten in Spain and "the hot regions" prepared boiled with salt and pepper and oil or prepared with oil, vinegar, and pepper mixed together as a sauce for meat in the same way as "these cold Countries doe Mustard." But nowhere does it say that the plant is poisonous in the entry, only that it has little nourishment. Iasmin de Cordoba Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 02:44:50 EST From: Trierarch at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Poisonous Tomatoes? <> The following material makes a causal but specific reference to the toxicity of tomato plants on page 66. Fortin, Francois/Macmillan, Encylcopedie Visuelle des Aliments, Quebec/Amerique International, pg. 66-67, 1996. Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 04:03:00 EST From: Trierarch at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Poisonous Tomatoes? ddfr at best.com writes: << In any case, I don't think one can argue that something was considered poisonous just because you can't find anyone saying that it isn't. People in this thread seem to be accepting what is, so far, an undocumented assertion as fact and arguing from it. It might be true, but I would like some evidence. So far the only period references--to 16th c. usage in Italy, and Gerard early in the 17th century, provide no support at all for the idea that tomatoes were considered poisonous. >> I Agree. The situation regarding Historical reference to the Tomato being poisonous appears to be difficult. Most references I have come across all state "considered poisonous" probably due to its association with know poisonous plants. One such reference follows (1). The Tomato does have some poisonous properties with the primary poison being identified (in modern times) as: So∑la∑nine (sl-nn, -nn) also so∑la∑nin (-nn). n. A bitter poisonous alkaloid, C45H73NO15, derived from potato sprouts, tomatoes, and nightshade and having narcotic properties formerly used to treat epilepsy.[French from Latin slnum, nightshade, from sl, sun; see swel- in Indo-European Roots.] I am very hopeful that someone will locate a definite historical, hard reference to the known poisonous characteristic of the Tomato. 1. "The tomato originated in the Andean region of South America, mainly Ecuador and Peru, but its domestication took place in Mexico and Central America. There may have been more than one centre of origin in the eastern Andes (Ricke and Holle, 1990). It is suggested that Columbus returned with tomatoes to Europe where they were first grown for ornamental purposes; however, through the exploits of Drake, Raleigh and others and the long years of buccaneering and piracy in the so-called Spanish Main, many Central and South American plants including the Canna, Nasturtiums, Sunflowers, Tagetes, Yucca, potato, tobacco and the tomato were cultivated in Europe during the sixteenth century. The actual means by which they were introduced remain uncertain. Initially they were grown in Europe as ornamental plants because the fruit was considered poisonous as the tomato belongs to the plant family Solonaceae and included in this family is the Deadly Nightshade. In fact the tomato was named Mala Insana or the unwholesome fruit by Europeans. It was also called the Love Apple. We should thank the Italians for first embracing the tomato and introducing it into their culture." Alberta Botanical Library: Tomato Donegal Arias Massalla R. N. Parker, PhD U.S.J.D. S.D. CA Stolen Antiquities Div. Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 11:01:01 -0800 From: david friedman Subject: Re: SC - Poisonous Tomatoes? I've been searching the web, and have found a few tidbits: Pierandrea Mattioli in 1544 is supposed to provide the first European reference to the tomato, and several people claim that he identified the relationship to nightshade and said tomatoes were poisonous. According to Longone (I think) the quote about eating tomatoes fried in oil is also from 1544, which suggests that it is probably from the same source. Another webbed source says that Mattioli first described tomatoes as "a kind of eggplant" and later as an "unhealthy apple." A message in the florigium quotes an edition of Gerard's Herbal as saying: "In Spaine and those hot regions they used to eat the Apples prepared and boiled with pepper, salt and oyle: but they yeeld very little nourishment to the body, and the same naught and corrupt." So my current guess is that Mattioli: a. Identified a relationship to nightshade (which eggplant is also related to) b. Knew perfectly well that people were eating them and not dying c. But for some reason concluded that they weren't good for you--just as Platina asserted that some of the things he gave recipes for were bad for you. Out of that modern writers spun the "tomatoes were considered poisonous because they were related to the deadly nightshade" story. But that is only a guess. Perhaps someone with access to a good library can find a copy of Mattioli's 1544 book and check what he actually says. - -- David/Cariadoc http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 00:22:07 -0500 From: johnna holloway To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Request for recipes I don't have the issue available but Rudolf Grewe did an article on early tomato recipes in Spain and Italy. It was published in The Journal of Gastronomy, 3 [Summer 1987] pp.67-83. See Andrew Smith's The Tomato in America for a run down of the tomato prior to its appearance in modern American cuisine. Johnna Holloway Johnnae llyn Lewis Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 09:58:08 -0500 To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org From: "Cindy M. Renfrow" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Request for tomato recipes >I seem to recall someone on this list mentioning a recipe (or rather, a >description, fairly detailed) for tomato use in Spain, c. 1580's, in >Gerard's Herbal. As I recall (and do _not_ trust my memory here), they >were just kinda mashed up and slowly melted with olive oil, salt, and >maybe a dash of vinegar. > >Adamantius Tomato - Gerard's Herball, pages 345-347. "Poma Amoris. Apples of Loue. ...In Spaine and those hot Regions they vse to eat the Apples prepared andboiled with pepper, salt, and oile: but they yeeld very little nourishmentto thebodie, and the same nought and corrupt. Likewise they doe eat the Appleswith oile, vineger and pepper mixed together for sauce to their meate, euenas wein these cold Countries doe Mustard." Mala AEthiopia. Apples of AEthiopia. ...they are vsed for a sauce and seruice vnto rich mens tables to be eaten, being first boyled in the broth of fat flesh with pepper and salt..." Culinary Gleanings from Gerard's Herball can be found at http://members.aol.com/renfrowcm/gerardp1.html Cindy From: "Terry Decker" To: Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Tomato References Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 21:06:25 -0500 Tannahill covers the subject, but not very thoroughly. Toussaint-Samat has a little less information. Root covers the subject better in "Food" by at least referencing Pierandrea Mattioli (but not his "Commentaries on the Six Books of Dioscorides" (1544)). IIRC, Leonard Fuch's Herbal of 1545 also contains a botanical Description of the tomato. The best known reference is a recipe in Gerard's Herball, " In Spaine and those hot regions they use to eate the Apples prepared and boiled with pepper, salt and oyle; but they yeeld very little mourishment to the body, and the same naught and corrupt." Of course, Gerard was a staunch Protestant Englishman laying it on the Papists. Probably, the Spanish introduced the tomato into Naples where it caught on, then spread north into Central Europe. French use of the tomato is primarily 18th Century and according to Brillat-Savarin, the tomato was a new arrival in Paris in the 19th Century. Bear Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 16:34:14 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT - A little history To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" The quote is: "In Spain and those hot Regions they use to eate the Apples prepared and boiled with pepper, salt and oyle: but they yeeld very little nourishment to the body, and the same naught and corrupt. Likewise, they doe eate the Apples with oile, vinegre and pepper mixed together for sauce to their meat, even as we in these cold countries doe Mustard." One does need to keep in mind that Gerard was a loyal subject of Elizabeth I, who couldn't resist taking a shot at the Popish Dons. Castore Durante in his Herbario nuovo (1585), presumable comments, "They are eaten the same way as eggplants, with pepper, salt and oil..." Bear >>> I think Brandu is talking, when he says, "green parts", about the leaves and stalks. Conversely, when Gerard talks about an area where they're fried in oil with salt (and, possibly vinegar? I forget), he's referring to Spain, and he goes onto say something like, "and that is their sauce". But I like fried green tomatoes, too, but being a UUY and all, I am at a genetic disadvantage as to their preparation. However I'm quite skilled at eating them. Adamantius <<< Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 23:53:12 -0400 From: Ron Carnegie Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT - A little history To: Cooks within the SCA > What does appear clear, though, is that until the early 19th Century, when > Jefferson "proved" their safety and made a big deal of feeding them to his > ambassadorial guests, the Tomato did not appear as a common European > foodstuff, even in Italy. I can't speak for the SCA period, but I can for the 18th century. The above quoted is a common story, but it is a myth. Tomatoes were growing in Williamburg here in Virginia in the 18th Century. There are a number of references to their presence here in various documents at work. It is possible however that these were as ornamentals. In England,Gervase Markham's THE ENGLISH HUSWIFE gives instructions for raising tomatoes in his section on kitchen gardens. (At least according to foodways historian Karen Hess). There are even receipts in some of the English cookbooks of the period though not in large amounts. They are still uncommon. One of these is South Carolina"s Harriott Pinkney Horry's receipt book that includes a receipt for preserving tomatoes. There are by then quite a few references to tomato use in Spain which Gerard states is common place in the 1590s. -- Ron Carnegie Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 16:46:47 -0500 From: "Christine Seelye-King" Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Tomato was Pre-Columbian Foods To: "Cooks within the SCA" When Lady Temair did her research on the humoral theory, she found that the 'poisonous' appelation came from a botanist that was likening tomatoes to other extreme plants such as garlic, which is also considered poisonous if not prepared correctly, as in harmful to the balance of the body's humors. We see the word 'poisonous' and automatically think toxic, but the word was used in a different connotation when relating to various plants and behaviours that affected general health practices. Christianna Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 11:40:28 -0400 From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] tomato sauce documentation To: Cooks within the SCA > I have heard rumor that sometime in the late 1500 the Italians made a > sauce from tomatoes by cooking the "poisonous" beasties for 3 days.... > Does anybody have docs on this. I can surely bet somebody somewhere > is going to want to use tomato sauce It's not tomato sauce, per se. It sounds more like stewed tomatoes and/ or bruchetta/salsa, and it's from Gerard's Herbal, 1597: "In Spaine and those hot Regions they vse to eat the Apples prepared and boiled with pepper, salt, and oile: but they yeeld very little nourishment to the bodie, and the same nought and corrupt. Likewise they doe eat the Apples with oile, vineger and pepper mixed together for sauce to their meate, euen as we in these cold Countries doe Mustard." -- -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 17:12:28 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period Tomatoes To: "Cooks within the SCA" Nothing in this statement provides that the strains are different. The 8 Turkish strains could be a subset of the 13 Peruvian ones. Simply counting strains proves little. I'm much more interested in how they cross breed with wild varieties and an analysis of the genetic differences. I will point out C.M. Rick describes the cross breeding of wild and domestic tomatoes in South America. I've not seen any information for this from Turkey. Are any of the Turkish strains wild? One might also check Taylor, I.B., 1991. Biosystematics of the tomato; in Atherton and Rudich, The tomato crop; A scientific basis for improvement, pp. 1-22. The botanist Edgar Anderson believes that the Turks were early adopters of the tomato and responsible for spreading it into the Levant and the Balkans early in the 16th Century. The tomato is still a major crop in Turk and there is quite a bit of tomato cultivation research in Turkish. With almost 500 years and the experimental agricultural background of the Turks, I'm a little surprised that there are only 8 strains. It should also be pointed out that tomato seeds are found in archeological digs is South America. I have yet to see any cataloged in a Turkish (or even Levantine) dig. If the tomato is truly indigenous to Turkey, then I would expect to find evidence of prehistoric use. BTW, I have an interest in seed counts and descriptions from digs. It helps me understand the spread of baking in early cultures. While I haven't read it, Grewe, Rudolf, The Arrival of the Tomato in Spain and Italy: Early Recipes; The Journal of Gastronomy 3:67-81 (1988), might prove enlightening to anyone interested in the early history of the tomato in the Old World. Bear > My friend with the tomato problem just posted this to the Meridian > Tavern Yard: > "If you wish to explore this from a scientic point of view you will > find that the decision to place S.A. as the source of the 'modern > tomato' is based on the work of a Russian Scientist who held the > view that the 'area with the greatest number of indiginous strains' > of any plant is the most likely source. Peru won out with about 13 > varieties -- Turkey was second with about 8. This indicates several > things: > 1) strains of 'tomatoes' exist in Turkey that do not exist in Peru > 2) the decision to grant Peru as the absolute 'source' is not > scientifically 'proved'" > > Bear? Any comment? > > Pat Griffin > Lady Anne du Bosc Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 08:53:10 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Medieval and/or Middle Eastern Recipies containingTomatoes To: jenne at fiedlerfamily.net, Cooks within the SCA I don't have the time to dig into this at the moment. I have another medical appointment this am and I have to leave for that. There has always been this nagging bother that certain reference books have listed that they had pomidoros (the tomato) in Italy in like the 12th century. Sources like Theodora Fitzgibbon's The Foods of the Western World. An Encyclopedia of Food from North America and Europe. New York: Quadrangle/the New York Times Book Company, 1976 say this. Some monks are credited with its introduction; I think Fitzgibbon said that it came from China. I don't have this book out at the moment so perhaps someone else can pull it off their shelf and repeat the entries. Of course if one looks up the entry under tomoto, it says New World! My best guess is that it was another plant with a name that came to be given to the tomato later. We see this done with various of the beans and pumpkins. There are of course 16th century references in Gerald to the tomato where it is said that they ate them in warm places like Spain. Johnnae Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:22:03 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: [Sca-cooks] Tomatoes was Re Pasta Experiment Update To: "Cooks within the SCA" >> Tomatoes were just being introduced in the last century >> of our eras and only being written about in the last half >> of the last century that we cover. > > I keep forgetting that tomatoes were treated with much the same > attention as Nightshade and Hellebore. :) > > Thank you for reminding me. This is an assumption that may be unwarranted. The fact that something is a member of the Solanacea does not automatically relegate it to non-use in period, as is proven by eggplant and tobacco. The first mention is in Matthiolus around 1534 with a full discourse in 1544. IIRC, tomatoes also appear in Fuchs 1545. The use of the tomato in the New World was well documented in the 16th and early 17th Centuries. In reference to Europe, Castore Durante (1585) states, "They are eaten in the same way as eggplants..." He wasn't fond of them, so they got panned. Gerard gives a similar review. A tomato and chili peppers appear in a painting from the School of Caravaggio around 1607. A tomato, two eggplants and a type of pumpkin appear in Murillo's The Angels Kitchen (1646). Latini's Lo scalco alla moderna (1692) provides several recipes for tomatoes, all labelled alla spagnuola, in the Spanish style. One of them is for a dish combining tomato, eggplant, and pumpkin. I suspect what you have with the tomato is similar to the problem with maize. We know it was there. We know it was used. But we don't have enough evidence to define the scope and speed of its spread and use. Bear Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:16:18 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway Subject: [Sca-cooks] Sun dried Tomatoes To: Cooks within the SCA Take a look at-- http://home.comcast.net/~iasmin/mkcc/MKCCfiles/ 16thCITomatoReferences.html for an article on what we found when investigating 16th Century Tomato references-- And no sun dried was not mentioned... Johnnae Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:55:07 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Christiane Subject: [Sca-cooks] More musings on nightshade and tomatoes To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org I've always wondered if the reason why the English herbalists disliked tomatoes was because England has really bad tomato-growing conditions, therefore the tomatoes they grew tasted like doo-doo. It rains a lot in England, and tomatoes grow best (and taste best) in hotter, drier climes. Drier, hotter conditions produce a tomato with concentrated sweetness and intense flavor. Tomatoes thrive in lots of sun, and produce lots of fruit in those conditions. Tomatoes and basil go well together not only culinarily, but in gardens as well (growing basil next to tomatoes helps protect them from whitefly and other insect infestations). A water-containing fruit would also be especially valued in the hot, dry south of Italy and Sicily, where there has been a cultural association between water=good luck=fertility (and the mal'occhio or jettatura was attributed to drying out crops, cows, semen, and a woman's ability to conceive). Plus, the volcanic soils of the region would produce superior tomatoes. That's just my theory as to why tomatoes took so long to catch on in England, but were adopted earlier in the Meditteranean. Gianotta Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:09:39 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] More musings on nightshade and tomatoes To: Cooks within the SCA I would recommend that people interested in the tomato read The Tomato in America by Andrew Smith as he goes into this tomato = poison story in a very thorough fashion. With footnotes and bibliography. It does cover the history of the tomato in Europe. Johnnae > --- rbbtslyr at comporium.net wrote: >> Don't forget they are Nightshades and many assumed anything from that >> family except for the roots would be deadly. > > However, with the Tomato, everything is deadly, including the roots, > except the Tomato Fruit. > > Huette Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 18:11:49 -0400 From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] meats pizziola To: Cooks within the SCA On Jul 8, 2005, at 4:21 PM, Samrah wrote: > OK. About 6 months ago, someone on this list sent me documentation > for a period recipe for stewed tomatoes. If memory serves, it was > about 1500, Italian. ...On a more positive note, what did > the late period Italians (or whomever, considering I don't believe > Gerard was Italian) do with their stewed tomatoes? > > Samrah Gerard, who was English, says the Spanish used it as a sauce for meat, presumably in the way others might use mustard or some such. But then, we don't know how factual even Gerard's account is. Adamantius Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 20:14:00 -0500 rom: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] meats pizziola To: "Cooks within the SCA" > OK. About 6 months ago, someone on this list sent me documentation for a > period recipe for stewed tomatoes. If memory serves, it was about 1500, > Italian. ... What did the late period Italians (or > whomever, considering I don't believe Gerard was Italian) do with their > stewed tomatoes? > > Samrah I'd really like to see this recipe and the supporting documentation, so if you find it, please post. A generally accepted date for tomatoes in Europe is 1527, coinciding with the first returns from Cortez's conquest of th Aztecs. And the first appearance of the tomato in print is in the 1544 Herbal of Petrus Andreas Matthiolus, so I seriously question anything earlier. Castore Durante mentions a method of preparation in his Herbal of 1584 as does Gerard (1596). Joesp de Acosta comments on their use in sauces in the New World in 1590. But the first actual recipe I know of appears in a cookbook from 1692/4. Gerard's comment: "Poma Amoris. Apples of Loue. ...In Spaine and those hot Regions they vse to eat the Appls prepared and boiled with pepper, salt, and oile: but they yeeld very little nourishment to the bodie, and the same nought and corrupt. Likewise they doe eat the Apples with oile, vineger and pepper mixed together for sauce to their meate, euen as wein these cold Countries doe Mustard." Durante's comments: "They are eaten in the same way as eggplants, with pepper, salt and oil, but give little and bad nourishment." And for the 17th Century recipe: Tomato sauce, Spanish style "Take half a dozen tomatoes that are ripe, and put them to roast in the embers, and when they are scorched, remove the skin diligently, and mince them fine with a knife. Add onions, minced finely, to discretion; hot chili peppers, also minced finely; and thyme in a small amount. After mixing everything together, adjust it with a little salt, oil and vinegar. It is a very tasty sauce, both for boiled dishes or anything else." Antonio Latini, Lo scalco alla moderna, 1692/4 Thank Rudolf Grewe for this last one. Bear Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 23:49:56 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] meats pizziola To: "Cooks within the SCA" > Greetings Bear, > > These first two look like recipes to me. So why is the first "recipe" > dated as the late 17th century one? Last night we had the Apples with > oil, vinegar, and pepper, mixed together for sauce to our meat. I threw in > some onion and mushroom as well., but it seems pretty close to me. What am > I missing? Is it because the first two comments are not from cookbooks? > > Many thanks for the information, and for all of your research. > > Aoghann While the first two specify methods of preparation, neither is particularly detailed and the question is raised as to whether they represent first hand knowledge or hearsay. Also, there is no way of determining the social context of the preparations or the extent of use. We can use the descriptions to create recipes, but we have no idea as to the accuracy of our recreations. Call them recipes, if you will but understand the historical limitations. The third item is a recipe being specifically for the preparation of the dish in a text written specifically for stewards of noble households and by such a steward. The sauce is specified as being of Spanish derivation and it is obviously upwardly mobile socially. As a small aside, there are some other recipes in the text using tomatoes and peppers and all are "in the Spanish style." Grewe was hoping that some 16th Century manuscript cookbook would give us a real tomato sauce recipe, but AFAIK it hasn't been found and translated. Bear Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:16:47 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Tomatoes To: "Cooks within the SCA" > I am finding 1542 for the possability of tomates ending up in Spain > shortly after Cortez conquests. Anyone find anything earlier. > Da What's the basis for 1542? Cortez returned to Spain from the conquest of Mexico in 1528 and it is very probable that tomatoes returned with him. The first European reference to tomatoes is in Mattioli's Herbal of 1544 (or 1542 or 1543, depending on source). Dodoens provided a further description in 1554. The tomato appears in the painting The Angel's Kitchen (Murillo, 1646) which is the first thing that ties it to European cooking that I know of. The first recipe appears in 1692/94. Bear Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 23:30:08 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Tomatoes To: "Cooks within the SCA" I tend to go with 1527 and the end of the Mexican Conquest or 1528 and Cortez's return to Spain. Cortez, IIRC, burned his ships at Vera Cruz after landing his men in Mexico in 1519. The earliest probable date for a tomato in Europe would be 1521 (as Grewe suggests) after Cortez captured Panfilo Narvaez and presumably gained control of the transports that delivered Narvaez's men to Mexico. The Cox article appears to be accurate and correct, but his arguments are based on the genetics and the natural history of the tomato. He does not look at the culinary history, so his arguments and comments about culinary uses are open to question. Grewe's article deals more with the culinary history. The key question is not "When did tomatoes arrive in Europe?" but "When did tomatoes come into common use in Spanish kitchens?" Arrival and use are two seperate issues. Grewe suggests that they were a common foodstuff by mid-17th Century. Considering Gerard, it may be possible to push that back to 1596 or 1597. I tend to think that tomatoes may have been a taste acquired by Conquistadors, that slowly became a common food in Spain and spread at a slower rate than turkeys or maize. So your 1600 date is as good as any for their general introduction into paella.. Bear > Been doing research actually into Paella checking out recipes and led me > to tomatoes, everything else is well documented. So my last question was > tomatoes. > The last I read was an article By Sam Cox , December 2000 ya I know > a web address. > http://lamar.colostate.edu/~samcox/Tomato.html > I been looking around and basically I beginning to believe anywhere within > 1492 -1600 has a chance of being correct. More likely towards 1600 rather > then earlier . Basically I saying some where around 1600 give or > take a few years. > Da Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 07:14:04 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] *Sigh* That tomato thing - again To: "Cooks within the SCA" Your oracle is probably basing their opinion on the quote from Gerard about how tomatoes were prepared and eaten in Spain and Italy. It is of the "it is reported to me" variety and was published in 1596 (IIRC). It may be correct, but it doesn't demonstrate any wide-spread use. From various texts, we know tomatoes were being eaten by natives (and very probably Europeans) in the Spanish New World. They very likely entered European cuisine during the 16th Century, but unlike maize, sweet potatoes, white potatoes, and turkey, there is no definitive documentation. The earliest European documentation is from Matthiolus's Herbal of 1544 and in later editions, he referred to the tomato as Mala insana and spoke of its unhealthy properties. I don't recall the tomato appearing in Fuch's Herbal of 1554, but maize and chili peppers do with reference to how the maize was being used in German cooking. Castore Durante's Herbario nuovo (1585) provides "They are eaten the same way as eggplants, with pepper, salt and oil, but give little and bad nourishment." This does not provide any information about the extent of use. The first true European recipe for the tomato doesn't occur until the end of the 17th Century: Tomato sauce, Spanish style Take half a dozen tomatoes that are ripe, and put them to roast in the embers, and when they are scorched, remove the skin diligently, and mince them fine with a knife. Add onions, minced finely, to discretion; hot chili peppers, also minced finely; and thyme in a small amount. After mixing everything together, adjust it with a little salt, oil and vinegar. It is a very tasty sauce, both for boiled dishes or anything else. Antonio Latini, Lo scalco alla moderna, 1692/4 While the tomato was eaten in Europe in the 16th Century, your oracle has failed to determine the scope of the use and is assuming ubiquity when there is only evidence to support limited use. We can make a far better case for wide spread adoption of maize and turkey than we can for the tomato. Bear > Okay, so... someone on our local list made the famous "tomatoes are TOO > period because they were eaten in Italy and Spain in the 16th century" and > (of course) didn't back it up with cites. But because they are a respected > source of clothing information, it is swinging the whole group over to think > the durned things are 'just fine' for SCA *demos*! > > So since I don't pay any attention to tomatoes, I didn't save any > information about them and their introduction to Europe. Does anyone have > any quick & easy cites they'd be willing to share? I don't want to put > anyone to any trouble but if you happen to have info easily to hand, I'd > love to pass it on before we end up eating corn-on-the-cob at an > educational demo... > > Hrothny Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 16:15:24 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] *Sigh* That tomato thing - again To: Cooks within the SCA Andy Smith has actually done 3 books on tomatoes and ketchup and tomato soup. The one with the early information on tomatoes in it is indeed The Tomato in America. Rudolf Grewe also did an article on early tomato recipes in Spain and Italy. It was published in The Journal of Gastronomy, 3 [Summer 1987] pp.67-83. Johnnae Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 10:56:16 EDT From: Sandragood at aol.com Subject: [Sca-cooks] Interpretation question was: Period? was Tomatoes To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org I'm really missing having direct access to the Gerard herbal..;o( I will be so glad when I can get moved and can get my library back on bookshelves instead of in boxes... The Italian source that references the eating of them fried with salt and pepper is the one I have been drawing from memory. I wasn't familiar with the Gerard reference until it was mentioned in posts earlier when this string started, but missed the text of his reference if it was posted. Here's an interpretation question for you, because I love redacting and I love hearing other points of views. From what I'm finding online, the quotes from Gerard show two preparations. The first being boiled with salt, pepper, and oil which seams to be simple enough. The second one, being "they doe eat the Apples with oile, vineger and pepper mixed together for sauce to their meat, euen as we in these cold Countries doe Mustard", requires more thought. Would you take this to be a cooked down sauce (more toward a rustic ketchup), or something similar to the chopped "stewed" tomatoes with vinegar as mentioned, or something more along the lines of a fresh or pickled tomato salsa served over the meat? I think it depends on where you put the focus. Do you put it on the "mixed together..." or on the "as we do mustard..."? If you place the focus on the "mixed together" it would appear to be a salsa or "chopped stewed tomatoes". The second would probably be closer if you focus on the fact that the two sources (Gerard and the Italian) both show "apples" being eaten in a cooked form. Is there a source that states they were eaten raw? That would add to the possibilities. If you place the focus on the "as we do mustard" do you take this to mean the consistency of the dish? Or, do you take it as a simple statement that they used this preparation on meat as the English used mustard on their meats? Liz Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 08:13:27 -0700 From: Susan Fox Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Interpretation question was: Period? was Tomatoes To: Cooks within the SCA > The second one, being "they doe eat > the Apples with oile, vineger and pepper mixed together for sauce to their > meat, euen as we in these cold Countries doe Mustard", requires > more thought. If they don't say anything about cooking, I won't assume it's supposed to be cooked. It sounds like a nice relish to me. Compare with today's Insalata Caprese, with olive oil and balsamic vinegar, only without the cheese and basil. Selene Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 23:20:41 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Interpretation question was: Period? was Tomatoes To: "Cooks within the SCA" The tomato was first described in extensive detail in Rembert Dodoens Cruydeboek (1554). Gerard took most of his information from the Latin translation of Dodoens (1574, IIRC, or possibly from a later Latin edition in 1583). A more extensive quote of Gerard (I believe from the 1597 edition of the Herball) is: "Apples of Love...goodly apples, chamfered, uneven and bunched out in many places; of a bright shining red colour, and bignesse of a goose egge or a large pippen...the whole Plant is of a ranke and stinking savour. There hath happened into my hands another sort.the fruit hereof was yellow of colour....Apples of Love grow in Spain, Italie, and such hot Countries.In Spaine and those hot Regions they use to eat the Apples prepared and boiled with pepper, salt, and oile: but they yeeld very little nourishment to the bodie, and the same nought and corrupt." An edition of Gerard's Herball edited by Thomas Johnson and published in 1633 cotains the following, "Poma Amoris. Apples of Love....In Spaine and those hot Regions they vse to eat the Apples prepared and boiled with pepper, salt, and oile: but they yeeld very little nourishment to the bodie, and the same nought and corrupt. Likewise they doe eat the Apples with oile, vineger and pepper mixed together for sauce to their meate, euen as we in these cold Countries doe Mustard." Given the differences between the quotes, it is possible that the use of the tomato in a meat sauce is early 17th Century rather than late 16th Century. Since I haven't seen either edition in its entirety, I cannot be certain this is the case. I have recently found a quote from an unfinished herbal by Leonard Fuchs (Vienna Codex, 1560) translated in Myers's The Great Herbal of Leonard Fuchs, 1999, which is of interest. "Malus aurea: its color usually resembles the color of gold. its fruit is not always of one color, but also occurs in other colors. Three kinds of this apple.are known to us. The first, either gold or saffron in color, and striped, is round and shaped like the others. The French call it pomme d; amour. A second kind.is a different color, for instance, red. A third, with size and shape like the preceeding ones, but in color saffron, or a whitish yellow, differs even more from the others, and has an oblong fruit."This may be the earliest description of what has come to be known as the Roma type fruit. It seems to be used solely as an ornamental as Fuchsobserves: "The whole plant, indeed, gives off a heavy and quite disgusting odor. It should be cultivated here in gardens and in "pleasure gardens'. Bear Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2006 22:56:08 +0200 (CEST) From: sera piom Subject: [Sca-cooks] Tomato in Dodoens 1554 To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org > The tomato was first described in extensive detail in > Rembert Dodoens Cruydeboek (1554). I think it is here and on the following page: http://caliban.mpiz-koeln.mpg.de/~stueber/dodoens_3/high/00464.html Serafina Edited by Mark S. Harris tomatoes-msg Page 25 of 26