potatoes-msg - 10/13/13 Period white and sweet potato use. Recipes. NOTE: See also the files: turnips-msg, vegetables-msg, beets-msg, onions-msg, leeks-msg, root-veg-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 06:16:35 -0500 (CDT) From: alysk at ix.netcom.com (Elise Fleming ) Subject: SC - Re: Yams/Sweet Potatoes Linnea wrote: >I have heard that Henry VIII liked sweet potatoes, or yams (which are >different - one being a root the other a tuber) and ate them often. >Any comments, recipies or information? I assume that the "they" who >say this are refering to the African yam and not the New World sweet >potato. They are similar, hence the trend to call both by the other's >name. I just purchased at Pennsic the delightful book _America's First Cuisines_ by the knowledgeable and reputable Sophie Coe. She gives some background on yams/sweet potatoes and their transport into Europe. The sweet potato (Ipomoea batatas) is different from the yam (either Dioscorea batatas or Dioscorea trifida) and her contention is that the taste was so different that one would not have been mistaken for the other. (If you have the book, it's on pp. 19-20). She mentions that there are 3 kinds of sweet potatoes in the US today: "an old-fashioned white kind, a hardy dry yellowy kind, and a moist, sweet, dark orange kind, miscalled a yam." She then gives (above) the botanical name for yam. "With the New World yams we will have nothing further to do, except to say that if they are the 'ages' or n~ames" Columbus and his successors found in the West Indies, they were considered inferior to sweet potatoes, a quick-growing food fit only for servants and slaves." They apparantly were rare even in Spain through the late 1500s. I have (somewhere) two recipes for using "potatoes" but can only recall having seen two. Memory says that the recipes are in books from the late 1500s or mid-1600s. Ms. Coe gives some of the background on the spread of various New World foodstuffs. Some went via Asia and became popular there before the Europeans embraced that particular food. Some went to Africa to become a staple before the Europeans ate the same food in any quantity. From her comments, she indicates that it is the sweet potato that was popular, not the "yam" which is a different botanical plant...Although we, to our infinite confusion, call "sweet potatoes" "yams". Go figure! :-) Alys Katharine, still doing loads of laundry from Pennsic. Anyone want some dried-out bugs?? Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:08:02 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: Re: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #346 John and Barbara Enloe wrote: > There are numerous documentations for potatoes in late period (last 25 or > so years). > > jon What there is, is _some_ documentation, not especially numerous, suggesting that sweet potatoes were occasionally eaten in late period, particularly in Spain, Portugal, and England, more or less as a novelty. That doesn't mean that white Virginia potatoes were typical of the cuisines of Medieval Europe, even if the documentation that exists for sweet potatoes did, in fact, refer to white ones, which are botanically very different. It can get confusing, because sweet potatoes are almost invariably referred to as simply "potatoes", until years later , when it became necessary to use the qualifiers of "sweet" and "Virginia" or "white". It is primarily the various illustrated herbals that make it quite clear that what they call potatoes are actually sweet potatoes. Adamantius Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:20:09 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Late-period is NOT Medieval >Technically, perhaps. Although I am more inclined to view sweet potatoes as >the more accurate potato. >Ras Richard Hakluyt (1552? - 1616) comments on the superior taste of the sweet potato, which suggests that he ate them within period. There is no evidence he converted anyone else to his view of the vegetable. Bear Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:19:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Bronwynmgn at aol.com Subject: SC - Fwd: Addition to potato debate from Rialto discussion << C. Kevin Kellogg (kellogg at rohan.sdsu.edu) wrote: : VJARMSTRONG (VJARMSTRONG at UALR.EDU) wrote: : : Mentioned in herbals but what context? Surely not as a food item at that : : early date, more likely simply as plant oddities from the New World. : Unfortunately that site, as wonderful as it is, does not Well, I looked for biographic data on Clusius in SDSU's library. I couldn't come up with much. Everyone agrees that he had something to do with potatoes (the Enclyclopaedia Britannica is more interested in crediting (blaming?) him for tulips in Holland). I did, however, find the interesting book, _The History and Social Influence of the Potato_, by Redcliffe Salaman, 1949, Cambridge University Press. He quotes John Gerard's 1599 herbal: ...The roote is thicke, fat, and tuberous; not much differing either in shape, colour, or taste from the common Potatoes [this in reference to Peruvian sweet potatoes], saving that the roots hereof are not so great nor long; ... This, to me, indicates that at least Gerard ate a potato prior to 1600, otherwise he could not have commented on it's taste. Salaman also quotes from a translation of Gaspard Bauhin's 1596 _Phytopinax_: ...The root if of an irregular round shape; it is either brown or reddish-black, and one digs them up in the winter lest they should rot, so full are they of sugar. ... ... We have further learnt that this plant is also known under the name of tartuffli, doubtless because of its tuberous root, seeing that this is the name by which one speaks of Truffles in Italy, where one eats these fruits in a similar fashion to truffles. This would indicate that the Frenchman Bauhin believed that the italians were eating potatoes prior to 1600. Salaman quotes from a translation of the _Theatre d' Agriculture et Mesnage des Champs_ by Olivier de Serres, published in 1600. This shrub, called Cartoufle, bears a fruit of the same name comparable to truffles, and is so called by some. It came from Switzerland to the Dauphine, a short time ago. ... One keeps them during the winter in sand... Some do not trouble to layer this plant, but let it grow and fruit at its will, harvesting the crop in due season, but the tubers do not do so well in the air as in the ground, thus conforming to the habit of true truffles, which the cartoufle resembles in shape, though not so well in colour, as they are lighter than truffles! The skin not being rough but smooth and moveable. That is the difference between these fruits. As to the taste, the cook so dresses all of them so that one can recognize little difference between them. So here we have another reference to eating potatoes in the fashion of truffles. Carolus Clusius (remember him, this was supposed to be about him) wrote in his 1601 _Historia Rariorum plantarum_: ... The first mention I recieved of this plant is ... toward the beginning of the year 1588, ... The Italians do not know whence they first obtained it, but it is certain that they got it either from Spain or America. ...although it was so common and frequent in certain parts of Italy, for it is said that they used to eat the tubers of it cooked with mutton in the same manner as they do with turnips and the roots of carrots. They actually employed it for fodder for pigs. ... But now it has become sufficiently common in many gardens in Germany since it is so fecund. I think this is enough evidence to support the eating of potatoes for very late period German, French, Italian, English, and Swiss personas, cooked either in the manner of root vegetables or truffles. Avenel Kellough Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 15:02:12 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Schuldenfrei Subject: Re: SC - Deletable PC stuff, only partly to do with food. potatos aren't period. margali I know this was said in gest.... but someone on the Meridiean list made me aware of an exception..... Let me find it. Mistress Falada had written" Just an FYI - Dame Fiona has a period (yes, period) recipe for potatoes. And before anyone jumps me: I know that the white potatoes we have today are not the black, oily period variety. However, I have yet to see the period type any place that I could purchase them. Therefore, substitutions should be acceptable. Anyway, Dame Fiona's documentation was good enough to be accepted at her Grand Chef qualification feast. If anyone is interested, I am sure she would be glad to share the information. And later, Dame Fiona herself said: Second, as far as the potatoes are concerned, the recipe was published in a German cookbook in 1598. To describe the dish I would simply have to say "hashbrowns". Is this the same recipe you are referring to Tibor? Variations of the recipe are available in many modern cookbooks, but I got it from an English translation of the original recipe. It is called "Rosti". Tibor Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 15:55:07 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Period Potatoes >I had seen that comment before that "Potatoes aren't period" but I don't >see how this is possible. There were Irish people living during Medival >times, and potatoes in Ireland are a STAPLE food! In fact, I saw on TLC >once, where hundreds of thousands of Irish men women and children starved to >death at one point (sorry, it was a few months ago, and I dont' remember the >date cited) because of a blight brought in from England that destroyed ALL >the potato crops on the Island. It left the poor with nothing (as the show >stated it , "not very little to eat but NOTHING to eat") to eat for many >months, and the population was devastated. I'm far from an expert in >Medival cooking, but I do not see how potatoes could be anything but period! > >-Laurene Pardon what may be perceived as a lecture tone, but it's the fastest way to dump all these facts, which, in this case, are mainly lifted from James Trager's Foodbook, some of his dates and interpretations are open to question, but he seems pretty solid on the generally agreed upon facts. The white potato and the sweet potato are both New World in origin, so no potatoes in Europe before 1492. Yams which look like sweet potatoes are a different species of plant and were common in Asia and Africa. Gonzalo Jimenez de Quesada found white potatoes being eaten in tha Andes approximately 1530 C.E. These were apparently shaped like peanuts and between the size of peanuts and plums. The first written reference to potatoes is in Pedro de Leon's Cronica del Peru, circa 1553. In general in the New World, the sweet potato was preferred over the white potato in size and taste. The Germans were probably the first Europeans to regularly eat potatoes. The earliest known recipes appear in Ein Neu Kochbuch, circa 1581. A century later Frederick William forceable spread the planting of potatoes in Brandenburg. Fifty years after that, Frederick the Great spread seeds and cultivation instructions in Prussia. Apocryphally, Sir Walter Raleigh introduced the potato to England and grew them on his estates. In 1663, the Royal Society urged the planting of potatoes to prevent famine with little success. By 1770, they were a cash crop, sold in the public markets of Britain. They became the basis of the Irish diet late in the 18th century. The Great Irish Potato Famine occurred 1845-49. Interestingly, in the 1840s potato famines appear to have been international, affecting every country dependent upon potatoes. The Irish famine is remembered because the British government by its inaction used a natural disaster to rid itself of the problem of the Irish. Potatoes are mentioned in two of William Shakespeare's plays; The Merry Wives of Windsor, circa 1600, and Trolius and Cressida, circa 1601. From the dates, you can plainly see that the existence of potatoes and the knowledge of potatoes is period. What isn't period is the eating of potatoes in Europe. While some adventurous souls probably tried them, they would not have been common to a pre-1600 European feast. The exception to this, may be Germany, because of the cookbook noted above. Bear Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 20:10:51 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Period Potatoes >Can anyone provide the quotes? Gods only know where my copy of Shakespeare >has gotten to.... > >Alasdair mac Iain >James and/or Nancy Gilly >katiemorag at worldnet.att.net Let the sky rain potatoes. The Merry Wives of Windsor (Act V, Scene 5) How the devil Luxury, with his fat rump and potato-finger, tickles these together. Trolius and Cressida (Act V, Scene 2) The references are probably to sweet potatoes, but it suggests that the public was probably familiar with the sweet potato even if they didn't eat it. Another interesting comment, this from Reay Tannehill's Food in History, is that in 1573 the Hospital de la Sangre in Seville ordered potatoes at the same time they did other stocks. Which suggests that potatoes were being used in Spain, though they may not have been common. The information is attributed to Salaman, R.N.; The History and Social Influence of the Potato. I believe this book has been previously been noted on the list. It is supposed to be the seminal work on the history of the potato. Bear Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 22:56:03 -0500 (EST) From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Re: Peanuts, Sweet Potatoes, Etc. << Query: "Accepted theory" by whom? Where cited? Query: "At least 2 centuries before their arrival in Europe" What date would that make it? The 1500s or earlier? >> History of Food, Maguelonne Toussaint-Samat (Translated by Anthea Bell); pg. 65. "The sweet potatoe comes from the equatorial forests of America. A widely traveled tuber, it reached Polynesia two thousand years ago, and helps to clarify the problem of contacts between the Pacific Islands and the north coast of South America. It is an additional proof that Melano-Polynesian migrations took place in ancient times. Until quite recently it was thought that the sweet potato was introduced into Africa at the beginning of the slave trade. We now have to put that date back several centuries, without knowing how or why it got there. Perhaps across the Pacific, as the intrepid Polynesian canoeists made their return journey from the coasts of Ecuador or Columbia to the archipelagos, then on to either Malaysia and South-est Asia or to East Africa by way of Madagascar. Maize, groundnuts, peppers and cassava are thought to have accompanied the sweet potato. The coconut palm, the banana tree and the taro ( a huge root known to the Romans) are also believed to have travelled in the canoes, together with agricultural techniques which are remarkably similar in all tropical regions (including hoeing, brush fires, terrace cultivation and long fallow periods, .......etc." Ras Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 12:20:41 -0600 (CST) From: alysk at ix.netcom.com (Elise Fleming ) Subject: SC - Potatoes (Sweet, Etc.)-LONG Greetings! Here is some more fodder for discussion. At the end, Sophie Coe discusses what happened with Gerard and his Herbal. One of her comments (near the end) would lead to the conclusion that there is no place in SCA feasts for white potatoes. Sophie Coe on potatoes, sweet potatoes, and yams: Excerpts from her book _Americaís First Cuisines_. (p. 19) "The history of the potato is inextricably mixed with the history of the sweet potato and that of several other plants as well. If anyone has doubts as to the utility and necessity of Latin names, let this be a lesson for them, because the common names, ë[a[así, ëbatatasí, ëpapatasí, give us only the vaguest idea of what is being talked about."... (p. 19) "This being the case we must define our terms. By pototo I mean the tubers of 'Sonanum tuberosum' and other species of 'Solanum.' By sweet potato, or 'batata', I mean the thickened roots of 'Ipomoea batatas'. There are three kinds of sweet potatoes eaten in the United States today, an old-fashioned white kind, a hardy dry yellow kind, and a moist, sweet, dark orange kind, miscalled a yam. True yams are members of the Dioscoridae family, among them one unfortunately named 'Dioscorea batatas' but domesticated in the Old World, and another named 'Dioscorea trifida', a New World domesticate. With the New World yams we will have nothing further to do, except to say that if they were the 'ages' or 'n~ames' Columbus and his successors found in the West Indies, they were considered inferior to sweet potatoes, a quick-growing food fit only for servants and slaves." (p. 20) "The New World history of the sweet potato is complex. The Uto-Aztecan word 'camotli' seems to be the root of all the words found for it in the Pacific area, for the sweet potato is found not only in the New World but also in Polynesia, from Hawaii to Easter Island to New Zealand.....the sweet potato could have been taken to Polynesia, either deliberately or on the drifting boat so beloved by the diffusionists. Polynesians could also have fetched it, although such visitors were probably much more in danger of being turned into foodstuffs themselves than returning with novel foodstuffs. The third possible scenario is that the sweet potato did not stop in Spain when it arrived there after Columbus but continued its eastward journey, so that when explorers got to Polynesia in the eighteenth century the sweet potato had had time to become thoroughly embedded in the culture. However, when there was a famine in Fukien province in 1593, the Chinese authorities sent a mission to the island of Luzon to find new food plants. The commission returned the following year with a new food plant, the sweet potato, which remains to this day the food of the indigent in China. The Philippines were of course in contact with Mexico via the Manila galleons which sailed from Acapulco to Manila and may have brought sweet potatoes as they brought many other New World plants." (p. 21) "The potato, 'Solanum tuberosum' and allies, did not travel as swiftly as the sweet potato, even if we reject the possibility that the sweet potato could make it from Spain to the Philippine island of Luzon in less than a century. The potato was not even seen by the Europeans until the 1530s, when they conquered the cold highlands of Colombia and Peru. That is to say, cultivated potatoes were not seen by the Europeans until that time. More than two hundred species of wild tuber-bearing potatoes exist in the New World, growing from the state of Colorado in the United States south to Chile and Argentina, but if the Europeans ever noticed anybody eating them, they did not record it." (p.21) "There was a flurry of descriptions of the potato in the herbals of the late sixteenth century. It was at this time that the British botanist Gerard planted the seeds, or perhaps one should say the potato eyes, of trouble when he confused 'Solanum tuberosum' from South America with 'Apios tuberosa', the ground nut, which was eaten by Indians and early colonists in Virginia. For years the English-speaking world called 'Solanum tuberosum' the Virginia potato and thought it came from Virginia and had been domesticated there, even though there were no wild potatoes to be found there, nor any domesticated ones either." (p. 23) "After this almost everybody in Europe lost interest in the potato for several hundred years. The one place it did take root was Ireland, where the seventeenth-century diarist John Evelyn knew it as the Irish potato and thought it an acquired taste, only suitable for the poor, or for the servants when it was necessary to reduce expenses (Evelny 1818, 2:292)." Alys K. Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 23:02:08 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: SC - Pototoes - LONG POST WARNING -- Long post on the natural history of the potato. Fuel for the fire, but no recipes for the cooking, unless you want to count being cooked with mutton in the manner of turnips and carrots as a recipe (Italy pre-1601 with caveats). I went looking for a copy of Salaman's The History and Social Influence of the Potato. I didn't find it, but I did find Stuart, William; The Potato, Its Culture, Uses, History, and Classifications; J.B. Lippincott, New York, 1937. Stuart was the Chief Horticulturist for the USDA and the book was written as an ag-school text book. The chapter on the history of the potato has a number of interesting quotes, a few of which I'll reproduce here. The first published description of the potato is in Bauhin, Caspar; Phytopinax, 1596: The stem is in the form of a stalk about one and one-half to two feet in length; fruit in the shape of a golden apple, nearly round,.....stem green, somewhat branched, nevertheless it sometimes reaches the height of a man.....Leaves about the length of the hand, rough on the under side with pale hair. Much divided into six, eight or more or less parts; like single leaves, to the number of which an odd one is always added; round to oblong, simple, arranged opposite and there are usually two, six or more small leaves interspersed along the leaf stalk. The branches are usually divided into two stalks, each of which bears many flowers, some closed and three or four open, ranging from blue to purplish, spreading out into five points which somewhat greenish-yellow lines traverse and divide; in the centre there are usually bunched four reddish stamens, as in Malum insanum. The flowers are succeeded by single round fruits, hanging on long stems, like a cluster, as in Solanum vulgare, but far larger; for some of them equal a nut (probably a walnut) in size; some of them indeed grow no larger than a filbert, all nevertheless striped with equal lines, like the Malum aureum, which range from green to blackish and, when mature, to a dark red Iprobably a purplish-black). In these the seed is small, flat and round, somewhat swarthy. The root is round, but not circular, of a swarthy of dark red color; it is taken up from the earth in the winter time and is returned to the earth in the spring. At the base of the stem, at the head of the main root, long fibrous roots are spread out, on some of which small round roots are borne (tubers). We name this Solanum because of certain form of its leaves and of the fruit, which is like Malum aureum; then of the flowers, which are like Malum insanum; then, of its seed, which corresponds to the Solani; and finally, on account of the unpleasant odor of it, common to the Solani. In giving his source of information, Bauhin says: The seed was sent under the name of papas of the Spainards, and originally of the Indians, which grew easily in our garden almost like a leafy shrub, as in the garden of Dr. Martin Chmielecius, who had one with a white blossom. On account of our long standing friendship, Dr. Laurentius Scholtzius, a physician, sent me a drawing of a plant that he had grown in his garden, sketched in colors, but without fruit, and the root appendages. Gerard in his 1596 catalog refers to the potato as Papas orbiculatus. In the Herball of 1597, he calls the potato Batata virginiana sine Virginanorum et Papus (Potatoes of Virginia). The following comments are from Wight, W.F.; Origin, introduction and primative culture of the potato. Proceedings of the Third Annual Meeting of the Potato Association of America, Nineteen Sixteen; 35-52, 1917. The idea that the potato was introduced from Virginia into England, is, however, so prevalent in literature that it should have some consideration, even though the claim is not made that the potato was native to Virginia. Few, in fact, have believed that it was cultivated by the Indians previous to the era of European exploration and settlement; and no evidence has ever been brought forward, so far as I am aware, in support of such a contention. The conclusion in regard its introduction from Virginia rests solely on the assumption that the root (called by the Indians Openauk), described by Thomas Hariot in A Brief and True Report of the New Found Land of Virginia, first printed in London in 1588, is the potato; and is also the plant described by Gerard in his Herball issued in 1598. Hariot says: "These roots are found in moist and marshy grounds, growing many together in ropes as though they were fastened by string." He states that they grew naturally or wild, which would be improbable if they were potatoes introduced after the discovery. The description also applies better to Apios tuberosa, the ground nut, than it does to the potato. Furthermore, the Indians would scarcely have had a distinctive name for a plant so recently introduced. We may assume, from the evidence at hand as to the improbability of the potato being known, and still less cultivated in Virginia at that time, if Raleigh's vessels in charge of Sir Francis Drake did bring the potato to England on the date mentioned, they must have secured it from some South American trading vessel, or at a point other than Virginia. Wight's comments on Gerard's inconsistencies: It is curious, if Gerard had the plant described by Hariot, that he did not use his name (Openauk) instead of a word which is not known to have occurred in the Indian language within the present border of the United States or Canada. The question of how Gerard came by the word 'papas' may be settled with reasonable certainty, for he says: "It groweth naturally in America where it was first discovered, as reporteth C. Clusius.....It is doubtful if Clusius would have reported anything concerning the potato before he recieved the tubers, which was in 1588, two years after Hariot's return from America; yet Gerard says: "since which time (referring to the statement of Clusius) he had received roots from Virginia," and this would indicate that he must have received roots from some other voyage. The figure in the Herball is in two parts, and it may be doubted if the tubers figured are potatoes, at least this part of the figure, for some reason, is changed in Johnson's edition of the Herball in 1636. Clucius, C.; Rariorum Plantarum Historia: 79, Chap. LII, 1601: Clucius gives a description of Papas Perunorum. There is an edible root of a new plant, which but a few years ago was not known in Europe.....It springs at first from a bulb, which, with us, startsinto growth about April, not later; within a few days after planting it puts forth leaves of a dark purplish color, hairy, which, presently unfolding, show a green color; 5, 7, or more leaflets on the same stem, not very different from the radish, always of an odd number, some smaller leaves being interspersed, and the odd one always occupying the extreme tip of the petiole. The stem is of the thickness of the thumb, angular, and covered with down. From the axils of the petiols coarse stalks appear, angular pedicels, bearing 10 to 12 or more flowers about an inch or more across, angular, consisting of one piece, but so folded that there appear to be five seperate leaves, of a whitish-purple on the outside,inside purplish, with five green rays appearing from the centre like a star, with yellow stamens gathered together in the centre, and a prominent greenish style. After the flowers, which bear an odor resembling the odor of the flowers of the linden, roundish apples appear, not much different from the fruit of the mandrake, only smaller, green at first, white at maturity; full of juicy pulp which contain many flat seeds scarecely larger than the seeds of the fig. When in the month of November, the plant is dug after the first frosts, there are discovered tubers of various sizes. These are uneven, recognized by certain marks whence, the following year, shoots will start forth. I remember, also, that there were collected more than 50 tubers from one single plant, some so large that they weigh an ounce or even two, the outside skin reddish or approaching a purple color, some small, as though not yet mature; they have a whitish skin which is very tender in all the tubers, but the flesh itself is firm and white. From the tubers alone therefore, we must expect the preservation of the genus, and from the seed, the daughter plants of which, in the same year, bear blossoms, but of a different color from the mother plant. So I have learned from others, though I have never tried the experiment myself. True it is my friend Johannes Hogeladius described plants to me produced from the seed which I sent him, which produced white blossoms altogether. I received the first authentic information about this plant from Phillipus de Sivry, Dn. de Walhain and the Prefect of the City of Mons in Hannonia, of the Belgians, who sent two tuber of it, with its fruit, to me in Vienna, Austria, at the beginning of the year 1587, and in the following year, a drawing of the branch with a flower. He wrote that he had received it the preceeding year from a certain employee of the Pontifical Legation in Belgium. Later Jacobs Garerus, Jr., sent me a Frankfort drawing of a whole saltk, with roots. Indeed, I have much desired to exhibit the whole plant here, but I have taken pains to portray it in two drawings from the living plant--one representing flowers and fruit, the other roots and tubers clinging to their own fibers. The Italians do not know where they were first produced. Certain it is, however, that they were obtained either from Spain or from America. It is a great wonder to me that, when it was so common and frequent in Italian settlements (so they say), that they feast upon these tubers, cooked with the flesh of mutton, in the same manner as upon turnip and carrots, they give themselves the advantage of such nourishment, and allow the news of the plant to reach us in such an off-hand way. Now, indeed, in many gardens of Germany it is quite common because it is very fruitful. Stuart's comments: It is apparent to the reader that there are some inconsistencies in the description of the potato by both Bauhin and Clusius. Take for example Bauhin's description of the fruits, which he says are dark red when mature. In many of the varieties from South America which have come under our observation, the mature fruits are a dark purplish-black or dark bluish-green black, whereas in all varieties that are classified under groups 1 to 12 in Chapter XII they are a light lemon-yellow color when mature. In view of this fact, we may accept Bauhin's description of the color an not entirely inaccurate. It requires some imagination on the other hand to accept Clusius's statement that the odor of the potato flower resembles that of the linden. His description of the mature fruits would indicate that the variety he had was different from that of Bauhin's. The accuracy of obnservation of Clusius is well indicated in his description of the color of the tubers in which he says "some small, as though not yet mature, they have a whitish skin." This observation has been repeatedly verified in studying a number of tuber-bearing species of Solanum from Mexico. The immature tubers very frequently do not show color, whereas when they mature, several species have always developed a purplish color. While we have little definite knowledge as to how extensively the potato was cultivated prior to the seventeenth century, we can safely assume that it had not yet emerged from the curiosity or novelty stage in its development as a staple food plant, although Clusius says that it is reported to be more or less commony grown in Italy, and further remarks that, because of its fruitfulness, it is quite commonly grown in many gardens of Germany. Despite these statements of Clusius, the fact remains that the potato was little grown in Europe before the latter part of the seventeenth century, and, in fact, did not become of great commercial importance until the later half of the eighteenth century. searching for an ocean route to India and its fabled treasures of gold, silver, spices and jewels. They found them on these two new continents, North and South America, but they found many other things far more valuable, including three of the world' s most important food plants: corn, the white or Irish potato, and the sweet potato. Being a tropical plant, the sweet potato probably was found before the Irish potato -- by Columbus in the West Indies, by Balboa in Central America, and by Pizarro in Peru. Like corn, it was not found growing wild, but it had been cultivated by the Incan and pre-Incan races for thousands of years. They had developed many varieties, as is shown by their ancient pottery. In most places in Latin America, the sweet potato is called "camote", but the Incans called it "batata" and that is apparently the origin of our word "potato". The sweet potato was carried back to Spain and thence to Italy, from where it spread to Austria, Germany, Belgium and England before the first Irish potatoes arrived. It took 200 years for the English to accept Irish potatoes as being fit for human food, but the sweet potato immediately became a rare and expensive delicacy. Now it is widely grown in Asiatic lands, including Japan and southern Russia, in the warmer Pacific islands, in tropical America, and in the United States as far north as New Jersey." from :http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/natbltn/100-199/nb169.htm Hope this shed a little light on potatoes. Lady Clare Hele Barony of Rivenstar, Middle Kingdom Jennifer Lynn Rushman Si hoc legere scis Purdue University nimium eruditionis habes. Master's Student, Horticulture Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:41:33 EDT From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - The Potato Question << Please, what would I ask for to get a "rose patato" -- a "gold patato?" They sound interesting. When did these types make it to the old world? Balldrich >> Some of these varieties should be available at any good supermarket. If not, Yukon Gold can be had from a good seedsman. Blue potatos are available from Guerney's. Unfortunately the colored varieties which would have made it to the old world are lost in the mists of time although wild varieties of potato have a propensity to be multicolored, I know of no sources either commercially or otherwise for these wild types. Modern potatos which have colors associated with them are a result of careful selection and breeding.for size, disease resistance, etc.. BTW, colored varieties, indeed any variety of potato purchased in the market can be planted by the home gardener although they may be "patented". (What a ludicrous concept! :-0). :-) Ras (Who is sitting, weapon in hand, waiting for the plant patent police to come and rip up his garden) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 16:46:18 -0400 From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow) Subject: RE: SC - potatoes > At 18:28 28-9-98 -0500, Bear wrote: > >...there is one very late 16th Century recipe from Germany. > > Anybody have a copy of that recipe handy? > > Alasdair mac Iain Hello! I don't have that one, but here is a reference from Gerard's Herball of 1633. Sorry if this is a repeat; I haven't been following this thread: Potato pages 926-928 (See also Sweet Potatoes). "Battata Virginiana, siue Virginianorum, & Pappus. Virginian Potatoes. The temperature and vertues be referred vnto the common [sweet] Potatoes, being likewise a food, as also a meate for pleasure, equall in goodnesse and wholesomenesse vnto the same, being either rosted in the embers, or boyled and eaten with oyle, vinegar, and pepper, or dressed any other way by the hand of some cunning in cookerie." [Sweet] Potato - pages 925-926.

"Sisarum Peruvianum, siue Batata Hispanorum. Potato's. The Potato roots are among the Spaniards, Italians, Indians, and many other nations common and ordinarie meate; which no doubt are of mighty and nourishing parts... being tosted in the embers they lose much of their windinesse, especially being eaten sopped in wine.
Of these roots may be made conserues no lesse toothsome, wholesome, and dainty than of the flesh of Quinces: and likewise those comfortable and delicate meats called in shops Morselli, Placentulae, and diuers other such like.
These Roots may serue as a ground or foundation whereon the cunning Confectioner or Sugar-Baker may worke and frame many comfortable delicate Conserues, and restoratiue sweete meates. They are vsed to be eaten rosted in the ashes. Some when they be so rosted infuse them and sop them in Wine; and others to giue them the greater grace in eating, do boyle them with prunes, and so eate them. And likewise others dresse them (being first rosted) with Oyle, Vineger, and salt, euerie man according to his owne taste and liking. Notwithstanding howsoeuer they bee dressed, they comfort, nourish, and strengthen the body, procuring bodily lust, and that with greedinesse." More excerpts from Gerard are at http://members.aol.com/renfrowcm/gerard.html Cindy/Sincgiefu renfrow at skylands.net Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 13:25:15 -0400 From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow) Subject: Re: SC - Italian Ren Feast If yours is a very late-period feast, you may include the new world items. Here is a snippet from Gerard's Herball of 1633. There is more info on potatoes & maize (turkey millet) at http://members.aol.com/renfrowcm/gerard.html [Sweet] Potato - pages 925-926. "Sisarum Peruvianum, siue Batata Hispanorum. Potato's. The Potato roots are among the Spaniards, Italians, Indians, and many other nations common and ordinarie meate; which no doubt are of mighty and nourishing parts... being tosted in the embers they lose much of their windinesse, especially being eaten sopped in wine. Of these roots may be made conserues no lesse toothsome, wholesome, and dainty than of the flesh of Quinces: and likewise those comfortable and delicate meats called in shops Morselli, Placentulae, and diuers other such like. These Roots may serue as a ground or foundation whereon the cunning Confectioner or Sugar-Baker may worke and frame many comfortable delicate Conserues, and restoratiue sweete meates. They are vsed to be eaten rosted in the ashes. Some when they be so rosted infuse them and sop them in Wine; and others to giue them the greater grace in eating, do boyle them with prunes, and so eate them. And likewise others dresse them (being first rosted) with Oyle, Vineger, and salt, euerie man according to his owne taste and liking. Notwithstanding howsoeuer they bee dressed, they comfort, nourish, and strengthen the body, procuring bodily lust, and that with greedinesse." Cindy/Sincgiefu renfrow at skylands.net Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 20:04:34 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: Re: SC - German potato soup recipe??? Vanishwood at aol.com wrote: > Doesn't the book The Delectable Past have a 1544 Swiss recipie for Rosti? > > Ethelwulf Three years under the wire! >From "The Delectable Past", © 1964 Esther B. Aresty, Simon and Schuster, NYC. : "Let the nobility have their master-chefs. The role of family cook fell more naturally on the Hausfrau, and in 1598 one Swiss cook -- Anna Weckerin -- completed the first cookbook ever written by a woman. A recipe in it bore a close resemblance to Rösti, the delicious sauteed potatoes that are as Swiss as William Tell. For delighted cheers, serve them with your next steak or roast beef. RÖSTI..." And Aresty proceeds to give an ordinary recipe for Rösti (actually a rather simplified one, turned only once). She does not include the original recipe. At least she gives some documentation so we have a chance of locating the original and checking it against her redaction. I dunno. She uses New World ingredients, it must be wrong...; ) Adamantius Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 00:45:42 +0100 From: Thomas Gloning Subject: SC - Re: 16th century potato soup recipe? I assume that "white potatoe" is 'solanum tuberosum'. Looking for a 16th/17th potatoe soup recipe, I first checked the index of Hans Wiswe, Kulturgeschichte der Kochkunst. He says, among other things, that potatoes began to be used widespread only in the 18th century, especially as food for the poor (p. 78). However, Wiswe quotes a passage from a work on gardening and the culinary use of garden plants from the year 1648: "Die Kartoffeln werden gewaschen und in Wasser 'muerbe' gekocht. Nunwird das Wasser abgegossen. Man laesst sie abkuehlen. Nun zieht man die'auswendige [aufwendige_Wiswe] Haut' rein davon. Die grossen Kartoffelnschneidet man ein- oder zweimal auseinander, die kleinen laesst manganz. Dann tun man sie wieder in einen Topf, giesst Wein darueber, tutButter, Muskatblumen und anderes Gewuerz sowie Salz daran und laesst siefein uebersieden. Danach richtet man die Speise an und streut Ingwerdarueber" (Hoyer 1648, second ed. 1651; Wiswe p. 125).Wiswe then points us to a similar passage in the 'Diaeteticon' ofElsholtz (1682). Looking up that passage, Elsholtz writes:"Man isset aber diese Tartuffeln theils zur Lust und verenderung/ theilsals eine naehrende Speise/ weil sie nunmehr zimlich gemein bey unsworden" (p. 31/32; "ziemlich gemein" = 'quite common').Checking the electronic Text of Bartholomaeus Huebners 'NeuSpeisebuechlein' (1603) for "Erd-", "Kart-", "Tart-", I did not findanything important in respect to potatoes.Wiswe also mentions potatoes dealing with (Spanish) recipes for Ollapotrida, but the recipe for "Hollapotrida" in Rumpolt (1581, fol.137b-139b) does not mention potatoes.Going on, I checked some dictionaries.Hopf has no entry "Kartoffel", and her entries "Erdapfel" (see RumpoltVorrede 16v), "Erdbirne" do not mean 'solanum tuberosum'. But the entry "Tartuffol" leads us to the "Frauenzimmerlexikon" (1715), where thereare four recipes with potatoes (cols. 1979-1981). Manfred Lemmercomments on these recipes in his "Nachwort" (p. 23): "Wie die Rezeptelehren, wurde die Kartoffel aber damals noch nicht als Beilage zumFleisch genossen, sondern in der Suppe oder als Salat". Now, it isimportant to know, that these lines were written in 1980 by ManfredLemmer, who is also the editor of the facsimile of Marx Rumpolt (1976)and probably one of the few persons who read Rumpolt entirely. I amquite sure that Manfred Lemmer would have mentioned any potatoe recipealready available in the cookery book of Rumpolt. And so would have doneHopf, I assume; she used Rumpolt as one of her source texts for herdictionary.[BTW, I am beginning to transcribe Rumpolt, and maybe in some months oryears we can search this text. Anybody working on the same project,please drop me a line.]The article in the "Deutsches Woerterbuch" (vol. 11, 244f.) says that"Kartoffel" was derived from earlier "Tartuffel". Alas, it does not leadus to early cookery recipes, but to quotations from German poets(Moeser, Schiller) ...I must stop now; maybe I can check some other sources later.To sum up: German recipes with potatoes seem to be first attestedsomewhere in the 17th century. A linguistic problem is that in somecases we don't know if an expression like "Erdapfel" oder "Gruendling"means the potatoe or something else. Up to the 1720ies, there are souppreparations with potatoes. -- If I remember correctly, the firstattestation of potatoes in Germany is from the end of the 16th century:potatoes were part of a medical garden in Norimberg (I don't recall atpresent where I read that). Anyway: a German potatoe soup recipe fromthe 16th century would come as a great surprise for me. ThomasPS.: Please let me know if I should try and translate the Germanpassages into English or (period!) Latin. Settmour Swamp, East (NJ) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 10:34:23 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Citron and Potato Reay Tannehill in Food In History comments that in 1573 the Hospital de la Sangre in Seville ordered potatoes at the same time they did other stocks. Also, while reading Braudel, Civilization and Capitalism, Vol. I, I came across a tidbit which says that potatoes were used to feed the poor in Spain in 1643. Since the white potato was discovered by the Spanish about 1530, a Spanish recipe for them 69 years later isn't surprising, although the sweet potato appears to have been the preferred vegetable. Bear Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 19:19:15 -0400 From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" Subject: SC - Sweet Potato Recipe This is the other recipe I mentioned. Source: Libro del Arte de Cozina (Spanish, 1599) translation: mine CARNE DE LIMON, Y BATATAS -- Flesh of Lemon and Sweet Potatoes The lemons must be mature, and divided in the middle, and cast them in brine, which should be temperate, and after eight days have passed, remove them and have boiling water, and without washing off the brine, cast them in, and cook them with much fire, until they are extremely tender, and when they are so, set them aside from the fire, and lower them in another [change of] tepid water, and not that in which they were cooked, and hence in a little while, remove them from the water, and wash them very well, and if they should not be very tender, give them another boil, and if it should not be necessary, take them out, and squeeze them, and pound them in a mortar of stone. The sweet potato must be washed in two [changes of] water, and have on the fire a boiler of boiling water, and cast them in, and cook them well, until they are easily peeled, and then clean and pound [them], and then weigh out a pound of sweet potatoes, and another of lemon, and to those, two and a half of sugar, and if you wish them cast in two dozens of almonds, and very well pounded, it will be smoother. When this meat is combined, the sugar must be very clarified, and instantly, not in the manner as for peaches, and it being so, cast it within, and cook on a mild fire, and when the bottom of the kettle is made white, it is cooked, and set it aside from the fire, and cast in your musk, and let it cool a little, and cast it in your boxes, and set them in the sun three or four days, and if you have to make morsels, you do not have to cook it as much as for a box. Note: the mention of peaches seems to refer to an earlier recipe for peach preserves, in which the clarified sugar is allowed to become tepid before the fruit is added. I understand this to mean that you must add the lemon-sweet potato mixture promptly to the clarified sugar while it is still hot, rather than allowing it to cool as it does in the peach recipe. The mention of cooking until the bottom turns white discredits my earlier speculation. When the phrase appeared in the citron recipe, I thought it might be partial proof that the potatoes in question were white. Since the phrase also appears here, in a sweet potato recipe, perhaps it only refers to the syrup turning opaque? Any preserve makers care to comment? This is not an area of cooking I have ever dealt with, in the SCA or in mundane life. Lady Brighid ni Chiarain Settmour Swamp, East (NJ) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 10:07:23 -0400 From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" Subject: Re: SC - Citron and Potato And it came to pass on 4 May 99,, that Stefan li Rous wrote: [concerning my translation of CIDRA Y PATATA -- Citron and Potato]: > > > How sure are you that the potato that is meant is the white potato? > > > > I am not certain at all, but I felt that period recipes for any kind of > > potato were rare enough to be of interest. > > Uh oh. Please don't get me wrong. Yes, period recipes for either type of > potato are of interest. It's just a consideration that occurred to me > after hearing comments on this list about potatos previously. I took no offense at the question, my lord. (Print is both a wonderful and a terrible medium for carrying on a discussion.) I just wanted to make clear that I had no certain knowledge about the type of potato used. Of course, since finding the second recipe, some of my thoughts and assumptions have altered. > >One possible clue is that the > > mixture is to be cooked until the stuff at the bottom of the boiler > > turns white. If you were starting with white potato and citron and > > sugar, then I assume the mixture would become more opaque, and look > > whiter. > > Yes, I missed this. I don't see how you could get the orange sweet potato > to go white. ::sigh:: Unfortunately, as you may have read by now, the second recipe blew that theory out of the water. The recipe for "Carne de limon, y batatas" (flesh of lemon, and sweet potatoes) contains the exact same instruction. Now, a couple of things are possible. One is that the *syrup* turns opaque and white, and that would be independant of the color of the other ingredients. Another is that both recipes use white potatoes; there's a lot of room for scribal error between "patata" and "batata". Another possibility is that the direction to let it turn white is a scribal error -- I have seen a recipe for rice which includes the sensible instruction to clean any dirt off it. A sensible precaution, which is taken even today. It was followed immediately by a recipe for noodles bearing the same instruction, which I attribute to scribal error. Or perhaps period sweet potatoes were paler, as I understand carrots were paler? Lady Brighid ni Chiarain Settmour Swamp, East (NJ) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 13:37:30 -0700 From: lilinah at grin.net Subject: SC - I Am What I Yam Lord Stefan li Rous wrote: >I believe we determined earlier on this >list that sweet potatoes were New World. But yams were African. So >I guess if you were considering sweet potatoes a close replacement >for yams, it could be period. I don't eat sweet potatoes or yams, so >I can't say how close they are in taste or texture. There is a problem of terminology when using the word "yam" in the USA, at least. The smooth red skinned, deep golden fleshed tuber commonly called a "sweet potato" and the smooth red skinned but lighter yellow fleshed tuber often called a "yam" in the US are both actually "sweet potatoes", merely variations of the same family of convolvulaceous plants, Ipomoea batatas. According to my dictionary, the word "potato" derives from a word in the Taino language from the Caribbean. Yams are different kinds of starchy tubers, from the climbing vines of the genus Dioscorea (a different genus from Ipomoea, obviously), generally white fleshed with rough brown skins. They grow in a number of different tropical regions, including Asia and the Pacific Islands, in addition to Africa (and there may be some in the South American tropics, too). They can occasionally be found in stores that specialize in Pacific Islands foods, African foods, or Caribbean foods (or here in Northern California, at some supermarkets). According to my dictionary, "yam" comes from West Africa/Senegal nyami, "to eat". In my experience, the cooked flesh is very white, not very flavorful, and has a significantly different texture from Ipomoea batatas, a little gummy. So REAL yams may be African, but they are NOT the yellow sweet potatoes Americans often call yams. They're a whole 'nother animal, errr, i mean, vegetable. Anahita Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 15:02:08 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Russian dishes > Do we have > a date for the first use of potatoes for a human food in Europe? > > Lady Katherine McGuire The first written reference to white potatoes occurs in 1553. A specimen brought to Spain from Pizzaro's Peruvian expedition is supposed to have reached Pope Paul III around 1540 and from there been given to a horticulturalist from France. There is evidence that they were used as starvation rations at one of the hospitals in Seville in the 16th Century. And there are supposed to be some late 16th Century German recipes (about which there was an interesting thread several months ago where one of the cited sources apparently does not have the stated recipe, IIRC). There is some conflict about when the white potato came into general use. It may have been used in Western Europe to replace crops destroyed during the Thirty Years War, but learned debates from the same period suggest that the potato was in use but not common fare. During the 18th Century, potatoes became common fare in much of Europe. Russia was a late adopter of the potato and it was forced on the Russian peasantry by armed troops, probably so the nobles could export more grain. The increased use of the potato as poverty fare would be consistent with Braudel's documentation of a trend of falling wages and rising food prices from the late 16th Century to the late 19th Century. In any event, the white potato was common peasant fare across Europe by the 19th Century just in time to start mass immigrations to the United States during the potato famines of the 1840's. Bear Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:23:59 -0500 (EST) From: Gretchen M Beck Subject: Re: SC - potatoes > I have been told by several different people that potatoes are not period, > but if latkes are period, how can potatoes not be? The Jews have been eating > them for centuries and they (the Jews) were in all countries. I would really > like some clarification. Thanks! I don't know about latkes, but I found the following reference in a cookbook called Green on Greens : Ein NeuKochbuch (A NewCookbook), compiled and printed on Gutenberg's press in 1581, contains the first annotated German recipes; and there are a dozen potato dishes listed among them. One, suprisingly enough, is a very tasty baked tart. toodles, margaret Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 01:56:15 +0100 From: Thomas Gloning Subject: SC - potatoes <<< Given the date, are these likely to be white potatoes, or are they probably the sweet kind? Christianna 3. Side Dish (Period POTATOES) Another. (Lancelot de Casteau, ca. 1604) Take the sliced potatoes and let them stew in butter (...) >>> The original text is: "Autrement. [= Tartoufle autrement; the third of four recipes for "tartoufle"] Prennez la tartoufle par tranches, & mettez esteuuer auec beurre, mariolaine haschee, du persin: puis prennez quatre ou cinq iaulnes d'oeuf battus auec vn peu de vin, & iettez le dessus tout en bouillant, & tirez arriere du feu, & seruez ainsi" (Lancelot de Casteau, Ouverture de cuisine, Liège 1604, p.95). Léo Moulin and Jacques Kother in the facsimile of Lancelot de Casteau's 'Ouverture de cuisine' (repr. Anvers & Bruxelles 1983) held the view that potatoes were ment: "Ces quatre recettes de pomme de terre constituent une des plus précieuses révélations du livre de Lancelot de Casteau" (p.255). They quote some evidence for their position, but as far as I can see, some of the quoted texts are also uncertain. In the 'Ouverture de cuisine', there are four recipes with "tartoufle" (p.94-95), a translation into modern French on p. 254-257 together with a long note, and an entry in the glossary (p. 296-7, note 29), including a reference to: Léo Moulin: La Belgique à table. L'art de manger en Belgique. Antwerpen (Esco Books) 1979, 15-22, for the diffusion of potatoes in Europe. I must leave you with that. Thomas Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:25:10 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - potatoes > Were Potatoes being cultivated in Tennessee that early? My vague > memory, I think from something in _Guns, Germs and Steel_, is that > the South American food plants moved north very slowly. > > David/Cariadoc I believe the general evidence is white potatoes were isolated in the Incan empire until the Spanish arrived. Although Gerard described the "Viginia potato," it appears to have been a very recent import from South America, either left by Drake when he rescued the survivors of the Roanoke Colony during his return voyage to England after the sack of Cartegena (1586) or, more likely, brought to England by him, then re-introduced to Virginia in 1587 when Richard Grenville re-established the colony. Bear Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 09:01:48 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - potatoes > Bear said: > Although Gerard described the "Viginia potato," it appears to have been a > very recent import from South America, either left by Drake when he rescued > the survivors of the Roanoke Colony during his return voyage to England > after the sack of Cartegena (1586) or, more likely, brought to England > by him, then re-introduced to Virginia in 1587 when Richard Grenville > re-established the colony. > Arent girasols native to the american east coast? that would fit the > bill of 'virginia potato" > margali > [yummmm, jerusalem artichoke-I wonder how they would be for latkes?] Gerard was describing Solanum tuberosum (the white potato) which he called Batata virginian sive Virginianorum et Pappus. Considering the naming convention, Gerard was either aware of the Spanish literature on potatoes or was relating it to Ipomoea batatas, the sweet potato, or both. Jerusalem artichokes (Helianthus tuberosus) are a sunflower root as the name girasol attests, being an archaic Italian word meaning sunflower. I doubt that Gerard and his fellow botanists confused the two tubers. Not much was done with potatoes in the Colonies until the 18th Century, but the Jerusalem artichoke was one of the chief survival foods for the Jamestown colony. Bear Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 04:12:35 +0100 From: Thomas Gloning Subject: SC - Help with 1650s+ info: potatoes (long) It seems that the use of potatoes became _widespread_ in Europe somewhen in the 17th and 18th centuries, depending on the region. But the earliest culinary uses and experiments in Europe are known since the 16th century. Here is some further material: 1. Potatoes were cultivated in mid-17th century England G¸nter Wiegelmann, in his excellent book 'Alltags- und Festspeisen [Dishes for everyday and dishes for feasts]' (Marburg 1967) has an important chapter on potatoes. He says among other things: - -- "Der feldm‰?ige Anbau war in England schon in der Mitte des 17. Jahrhunderts - nach dem Vorbild Irlands - ¸blich geworden und in den Niederlanden auch seit 1670 bekannt" (p.76). - -- Roughly: 'The cultivation [of potatoes] on fields was common in England as early as in the mid-17th century (after the model of Ireland) and was known in the Netherlands since 1670'. He metions three books to back up this statement: - -- Fuess, W.F.K.: Die Geschichte der Kartoffel [The history of the potato], Berlin 1939, 57-62 - -- Salaman, R.N., The history and the social influence of the potato. Cambridge 1949, 188ff. - -- J.A. van Houtte, Economische en sociale geschiedenis van de Lage Landen, Antwerpen 1964, 172. 2. Potatoes in butter 1591 Not a recipe but a description how potatoes were cooked can be found in a letter of the Landgraf Wilhelm IV von Hessen to the Kurf¸rst Christian I. von Sachsen in 1591 (quoted from Wiegelmann p. 76 in his potato-chapter): - -- "Wir uberschicken auch E.L. Under andern ein gewechse so wir Vor wenig Jahren au? Italia becommen, Und Taratouphli genandt wirdt (...) Undenn ahn der wurzelnn hatt es Viele tubera henkenn, dieselbige wenn sie gekocht werden, seindt sie gar anmutig zu e?en, Mann mu? sie aber erstlich im Wasser uffsieden la?enn, so gehen die oberste schalens ab, darnach thutt mann die bruhe darvonn, Undt seudt sie in butter Vollendes gahr". - -- Roughly: 'We also send to your Highness among other things a plant that we got from Italy some years ago, called Taratouphli (...) Below, at the root, there hang many tubers. If they are cooked these tubers are very good to eat. But you must first boil them in water, so that the outer shell (peeling?) gets off, then pour the cooking water away, and cook them to the point in butter'. -- The article in the "Deutsches Woerterbuch" (vol. 11, 244f.) says that "Kartoffel" was derived from earlier "Tartuffel". 3. Spiced potatoes 1648 Hans Wiswe, in his 'Kulturgeschichte der Kochkunst', says, among other things, that potatoes began to be used _widespread_ only in the 18th century, especially as food for the poor (p.78). However, Wiswe quotes or rather paraphrases a passage from a work on gardening and the culinary use of garden plants from the year 1648: - -- "Die Kartoffeln werden gewaschen und in Wasser 'muerbe' gekocht. Nun wird das Wasser abgegossen. Man laesst sie abkuehlen. Nun zieht man die 'auswendige [aufwendige_Wiswe] Haut' rein davon. Die grossen Kartoffeln schneidet man ein- oder zweimal auseinander, die kleinen laesst man ganz. Dann tun man sie wieder in einen Topf, giesst Wein darueber, tut Butter, Muskatblumen und anderes Gewuerz sowie Salz daran und laesst sie fein uebersieden. Danach richtet man die Speise an und streut Ingwer darueber" (Hoyer 1648, second ed. 1651; Wiswe p. 125). - -- Roughly: 'Wash the potatoes and boil them well-cooked. Let cool down. Put away the outer skin. Cut the big potatoes once or twice, the smaller ones must not be cut. Then put them into a pot again, add wine, butter, mace and other spices and salt and let boil. Then serve it forth and sprinkle with ginger'. 4. Potatoes are 'quite common' in 1682 Wiswe points us to an interesting passage in the 'Diaeteticon' of Elsholtz (1682). Looking up that passage, Elsholtz writes: - -- "Man isset aber diese Tartuffeln theils zur Lust und verenderung/ theils als eine naehrende Speise/ weil sie nunmehr zimlich gemein bey uns worden" (p. 31/32). - -- Roughly: 'These potatoes ("tartuffeln") are eaten as a dish of pleasure and a dish of variety, but also as a nutritive dish. They are now quite common here'). 5. Potatoes in 'Olla podrida'? Wiswe also mentions potatoes dealing with (Spanish) recipes for Olla potrida, but the recipe for "Hollapotrida" in Rumpolt (1581, fol. 137b-139b) does not mention potatoes. Nor does the recipe for Olla podrida of Hern·ndez de Maceras 1607. 6. Four potato-recipes in the 'Frauenzimmerlexikon' (1715) In the "Frauenzimmerlexikon [Lexicon for and about women]" (1715), there are four recipes with potatoes (cols. 1979-1981). Manfred Lemmer comments on these recipes in his "Nachwort" (p. 23): "Wie die Rezepte lehren, wurde die Kartoffel aber damals noch nicht als Beilage zum Fleisch genossen, sondern in der Suppe oder als Salat" (potato was used only in soups and as salad). Now, it is important to know, that these lines were written in 1980 by Manfred Lemmer, who is also the editor of the facsimile of Marx Rumpolt (1976) and probably one of the few persons who read Rumpolt entirely. I am quite sure that Manfred Lemmer would have mentioned any potatoe recipe already available in the cookbook of Rumpolt. -- I read somewhere that an old potatoe recipe might be in the second edition of Rumpolt (1587), but I did not look up this source yet, as I am working with the facsimile of the first edition (1581). 7. Four potato-recipes in the 'Ouverture de cuisine' (1604) There are four (candidates for) recipes for Tartoufle in Lancelot de Casteau's 'Ouverture de cuisine' (1604). They are interpreted as recipes for potatoes by the editors of the reprint of this very rare cookbook: LÈo Moulin and Jacques Kother in the facsimile of Lancelot de Casteau's 'Ouverture de cuisine' (repr. Anvers & Bruxelles 1983) held the view that potatoes were ment: "Ces quatre recettes de pomme de terre constituent une des plus prÈcieuses rÈvÈlations du livre de Lancelot de Casteau" (p.255). They quote some evidence for their position, but as far as I can see, at least some of the quoted texts are also uncertain. There is a further reference to: LÈo Moulin: La Belgique ‡ table. L'art de manger en Belgique. Antwerpen (Esco Books) 1979, 15-22, for the diffusion of potatoes in Europe. Here is the third of the four recipes: - -- "Autrement [= Tartoufle autrement]. Prennez la tartoufle par tranches, & mettez esteuuer auec beurre, mariolaine haschee, du persin: puis prennez quatre ou cinq iaulnes d'oeuf battus auec vn peu de vin, & iettez le dessus tout en bouillant, & tirez arriere du feu, & seruez ainsi" (Lancelot de Casteau, Ouverture de cuisine, LiËge 1604, p.95). - -- Roughly: '(Potatoes:) A different manner. Take potatoes cut in slices and heat them with butter, chopped (minced?) marjoram, parsley, then take four or five egg yolks beaten with a bit of wine, and put it over the potatoes while they are still cooking and take it from the fire then and serve it forth'. [Sort of tortilla?] Best, Thomas Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 09:19:38 -0800 From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: RE: SC - New World Foods-list Bear wrote: >Yams are of African origin and were probably brought into Europe early in >the 14th Century. Yes, but what Americans call yams are of New World origin. African yams are a whole different vegetable. Both what Americans call Sweet Potatoes (with deep orangy yellow flesh) *AND* what Americans call Yams (with pale yellow flesh) are just two varieties of the same plant, both from the New World, with flesh of differing shades of yellow and purplish, mostly smooth skin, both Ipomoea batatas. What are called yams that are from Africa is something one rarely finds in America, and is a tuber with white flesh and rough cocoa brown skin, and are from a number of different plants within genus Dioscorea. Anahita al-shazhiya Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 12:24:13 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Potatoes and other new worlde foods as subleties From bjofnz at yahoo.co.nz > I want any ideas on how to present potatoes or corn > ect as a New exotic food at an elizabethan feast The Elizabethans preferred sweet potatoes. Oviedo reported in 1526 that sweet potatoes had often been brought back to Spain and that he had brought some back to be planted in Avila. England appears to have received them from Spain during Henry VIII's marriage to Catherine of Aragon. Henry was said to like sweet potato pie and there are occasional references to sweet potato pies which I have not tracked down to contemporary sources. Root mentions that Marnette's The Perfect Cook (1656) gives a recipe for potato pie with the ingredients of cinnamon, nutmeg, mace, grapes and dates. Gerard gives the following, "...whose nutriment is as it were a mean between flesh and fruit, but somewhat windie; yet being roasted in the embers they lose much of their windinesse....Some when they be so rosted infuse and sop them in wine; and others to give them the greater grace in eating, do boile them with prunes and so eat them; likewise others dresse them (being first rosted) with oile, vinegar, and salt, every man according to his own taste and liking." In 1586, Francis Drake sacked Cartegena and reprovisioned his ships. There is a belief that he obtained the first white potatoes to enter England at this time and that white potatoes may have been served at a banquet at the English court. If so, they didn't catch on. How they would have been served is open to question, but it would probably have been treated similar to Gerard's sweet potato. Gerard refers to the white potato as Potatoes of Virginia. Drake on his return voyage in 1586 rescued the survivors of the first Roanoke colony and returned them to England. It is an open question as to whether Gerard believed Drake found the potato in Virginia or whether potatoes were sent to Virginia with the second Roanoke colony in 1587 and Gerard received a sample from the colony. Maize made no impact on the Elizabethans. Gerard expresses it thusly; "...the barbarous Indians, which know no better, are constrained to make a vertue of necessitie, and thinke it is a good food; whereas we may easily judge, that it nourisheth but little, and is of hard and evill digestion, a more convenient food for swine than for men." The fact that the New World colonists made use of maize should not be generalized to the entire Elizabethan world. The English colonist preferred wheat, but smut destroyed their wheat crops. Bear Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 19:23:51 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger Subject: Re: SC - Potatoes and other new worlde foods as subleties These are both from Fettiplace To Butter Potato Roots" (p. 193) "Take the roots & boile them in water, till they bee verie sort, then peele them & slice them, then put some rosewater to them & sugar & the pill of an orenge, & some of the iuice [sic] of the orenge, so let them boile a good while, then put some butter to them, & when the butter is melted serve them. This way you may bake them, but put them unboiled into the paste." "To Preserve Potatoes" (p. 194) "Boile your roots in faire water untill they bee somewhat tender then pill of the skinne, then make your syrupe, weying to every pound of roots a pound of sugar and a quarter of a pinte of faire water, & as much of rose water, & the iuice of three or fowre orenges, then boile the syrupe & scum it, then cut your roots in the middle & put them into the syrup, & boile them till they bee throughlie soaked in the syrupe, before you take it from the fire, put in a little musk and amber greece [ambergris, according to the editor]." - --Maire Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 08:51:27 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Potatoes Decorative food Ideas and Candle sticks Paste commonly refers to a dough or a pastry shell. Looking at this recipe, I would believe paste means the pastry shell for a sweet potato pie. Bear Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 09:25:56 -0400 From: Elaine Koogler Subject: Re: SC - Potatoes and other new worlde foods as subleties BJ of NZ wrote: > I want any ideas on how to present potatoes or corn > ect as a New exotic food at an elizabethan feast Don't know about corn...I've never seen a recipe for that. However, I used the following VERY YUMMY recipe at my recent feast (from Dining with William Shakespeare) Stewed Potatoes 1 1/2 pounds sweet potatoes 1 pound tart cooking apples 5 tbsp. Brown sugar 1/4 tsp. cinnamon 1/2 tsp. ginger 4 tbsp. Butter, diced 1/3 cup white wine vinegar 1/4 cup candied orange peel, diced Bake the potatoes in their dkins for 30 minutes at 400?. Peel them and cut them into thin slices. Core and peel the apples and slice them thin. Mix 3 tbsp. of the sugar with the cinnamon and ginger. Butter a casserole with one tbsp. of the butter and put a layer of sliced apples into it. Sprinkle a little of the sugar-spice mixture and bits of diced butter over them. Cover with a layer of sliced potatoes, sprinkle a little of the sugar-spice mixture and dot with butter. Continue layering apples and potatoes as above until all are in the casserole. Pour the wine vinegar over the top and sprinkle with the remaining two tbsp. of sugar. Cover and bake at 350? for 40 minutes or until the potatoes and apples are tender. Dot the dish with candied orange peel and serve hot. I don't have the original down here in my office at the moment, but if you want it, I can send that in a later post. Hope this helps! Folks at our feast really loved this. Kiri Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 07:58:43 -0400 From: Elaine Koogler Subject: Re: SC - Sweet Potato Pie Don't know about sweet potato pie, but there is a recipe for Stewed Potatoes in "Dining with William Shakespeare" that is outstanding. I know they give the original in the book, but I can't remember off the top of my head where it came from and the book is upstairs. I'll look and send it to you later. Kiri "Decker, Terry D." wrote: > We've discussed the sweet potato and sweet potato pie in Elizabethan > England, but I don't recall ever seeing a recipe. Do any of the Elizabethan > or Jacobean sources have such a recipe? > > Bear Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:22:20 -0400 (EDT) From: alysk at ix.netcom.com Subject: SC - More Potato Recipes Robert May's _The Accomplisht Cook_, fourth edition, 1678, has these potato recipes. "To bake Potatoes, Artichocks, in a Dish, Pie, or Patty-pan, either in Paste or little Pasties." "Take any of these roots, and boil them in fair water, but put them not in till the water boils, being tenter boil'd, blanch them, & season them with nutmeg, pepper, cinamon, and salt, season them lightly, then lay on a sheet of paste in a dish, and lay on some bits of butter, then lay on the potatoes round the dish, also some erringo roots, and dates in halves, beef marrow, large mace, slic't lemon, and some butter, close it up with another sheet of paste, bake it, and being baked liquor it with grape-verjuyce, butter and sugar, and ice it with rose-water and sugar." "Soops of Artichocks, Potatoes, Skirrets, or Parsnips." "Being boil'd and cleansed, put to them yolks of hard eggs, dates, mace, cinamon, butter, sugar, white-wine, salt, slic't lemon, grapes, gooseberries, or barberries, stew them together whole, and being finely stewed, serve them on carved sippets in a clean scowred dish, and run it over with beaten butter and scraped sugar." I found two more recipes for potatoes, but they are from cookery books of 1695 or slightly later. One for a pie, by John Evelyn, echoes the recipe I sent in another post. Anne Blencowe (1695) has a recipe for a potato pudding. Alys Katharine Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:22:18 -0400 (EDT) From: alysk at ix.netcom.com Subject: SC - Potato Pie Recipe Greetings. I found one potato pie recipe in _A True Gentlewoman's Delight_, printed in 1653, a bit OOP. While I think I saw a recipe closer or even in period, I can't find it right now. Keep in mind that these are probably sweet potatoes, not the white Virginia potato. "A Potato Pie for Supper" "Take three pound of boyled and blanched Potatoes and 3 Nutmegs, and half an ounce of Cinnamon beaten together, and three ounces of Sugar, season your Potatoes, and put them in your Pie, then take the marrow of three bones, rouled in yolks of Eggs, and sliced Lemon, and large Mace, and half a pound of butter, six Dates quartered, put this into your pie, and let it stand an hour in the oven; then make a sharp caudle of butter, Sugar, Verjuyce, and white Wine, put it in when you take your Pie out of the Oven." Alys Katharine Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:30:27 -0400 (EDT) From: alysk at ix.netcom.com Subject: SC - Re: Sweet Potato Pie Greetings. _Dining With William Shakespeare_ uses a recipe from John Murrell, _A Delightfull daily exercise for Ladies and Gentlewomen_, 1621. This is the original recipe. "To Make a Paste of Potatoes" "Boyle your Potatoes very tender, pare them and pricke out all the blackes of them, put to every pound of them a graine of Muske, and beat them in a stone morter very fine, then take as much refined Sugar as the Pulp doth weigh, and boyle it to a candy height with as much Rose-water as will dissolve it, then put in the pulpe into the boiling Sugar, let it boyle alwayes stirring it until it comes from the bottom of the posnet, then lay it on a sheet of glass in round cakes or in what fashion you please, and set it in a warm oven or Stove, and when it is candied on the top, then turne it on the other side, and let it candy, and in ten or twelve daies it will be dry, then boxe it for your use." IIRC, candy height is the equivalent of the thread stage today. Alys Katharine Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 18:16:13 EDT From: DianaFiona at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Sweet Potato Pie Elynor Fettiplace has a yummy recipe for sweet potatoes, that I've made often. "To butter Potato roots" Take the roots & bole them in water till they bee verie soft, then peele them and slice them, then put some rosewater to them & sugar & the pill of an orenge, & some of the iuice of the orenge, so let them boile a good while, then put some butter to them, & when the butter is melted serve them. This way you may bake them, but put them unboiled into the paste." I have yet to do the baked version, but the boiled one turns outs very close to a mashed effect, as the soft potato slices get broken up by the stirring in of the other ingredients. Good stuff--I rarely bring any home! ;-) Do add a bit of salt in, though, or they will taste a little flat. I've also found that I often need to use part lemon juice, to make up for the tartness that would have been in the period oranges. The acidity is definitely needed, at least to my taste. Ldy Diana Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 01:14:07 EDT From: DianaFiona at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Sweet Potato Pie lcatherinemc at hotmail.com writes: << Do you have the Doc. for these. I would like to serve then at a lunch planed for an Estates meeting of another group. Ldy Katherine McGuire >> "The Complete Receipt Book of Ladie Elynor Fettiplace , Vol. 1", published by Stuart Press, is the version I have. It's *just* the recipes, with no commentary, unlike the lovely book put out by the wife of the gentleman who inherited this household book, which is far more commentary than recipes, and quite fascinating. It was started by Lady Elynor in 1604, and passed on to her niece in 1647. It is, therefore, technically outside our period, but no more so than several other works that are commonly used in the Society. Ldy Diana From: "E. Rain" To: Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 11:57:36 -0700 Subject: [Sca-cooks] RE: Potatoes Revisited - Longish (Elise Fleming) Alys posted some potato candy recipes she found in Murrell. these remind me of the spanish confection from Granado that Lady Brighid translated. I've included her translation adn my preliminary redaction notes for those who may be interested. Source: Libro del Arte de Cozina (Spanish, 1599) translation by Robin Carrol-Mann CARNE DE LIMON, Y BATATAS -- Flesh of Lemon and Sweet Potatoes The lemons must be mature, and divided in the middle, and cast them in brine, which should be temperate, and after eight days have passed, remove them and have boiling water, and without washing off the brine, cast them in, and cook them with much fire, until they are extremely tender, and when they are so, set them aside from the fire, and lower them in another [change of] tepid water, and not that in which they were cooked, and hence in a little while, remove them from the water, and wash them very well, and if they should not be very tender, give them another boil, and if it should not be necessary, take them out, and squeeze them, and pound them in a mortar of stone. The sweet potato must be washed in two [changes of] water, and have on the fire a boiler of boiling water, and cast them in, and cook them well, until they are easily peeled, and then clean and pound [them], and then weigh out a pound of sweet potatoes, and another of lemon, and to those, two and a half of sugar, and if you wish them cast in two dozens of almonds, and very well pounded, it will be smoother. When this meat is combined, the sugar must be very clarified, and instantly, not in the manner as for peaches, and it being so, cast it within, and cook on a mild fire, and when the bottom of the kettle is made white, it is cooked, and set it aside from the fire, and cast in your musk, and let it cool a little, and cast it in your boxes, and set them in the sun three or four days, and if you have to make morsels, you do not have to cook it as much as for a box. Note: the mention of peaches seems to refer to an earlier recipe for peach preserves, in which the clarified sugar is allowed to become tepid before the fruit is added. I understand this to mean that you must add the lemon-sweet potato mixture promptly to the clarified sugar while it is still hot, rather than allowing it to cool as it does in the peach recipe. [RCM] Eden's reconstruction (december 2000) Day 1 Sliced 4 lemons in half, soaked in 1 qt water with 5 oz kosher salt Day 8 (1 week later) Boil 2 large pots of water Add 2 sweet potatos (well washed) to one pot Boil 1:45 =96 2:45 Had to add more water twice, this dropped temp, next time cover pot Add Drained Lemons to other pot 1:45 =96 2:25 Puree =BD of cooked Lemons (8 oz) (pull out seeds) Puree =BD cooked potatoes (8 oz) Powder =BD oz slivered almonds Heat 1 lb 4 oz sugar for 40 mins till liquid (sugared so it took too long) Add goops mix & pour into tinfoil lined pan Tastes like Orange marmalade. Didn't become a stiff candy Next time wait to stir sugar till more has melted in Combine goops before adding to sugar Remove lemon seeds earlier Cook more after goop added Note that this marmelade is still, 7 months later, in my fridge & my husband loves it on pancakes or as a chutney with leftover indian food. Eden Rain raghead at liripipe.com Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:48:17 -0500 From: johnna holloway To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Potatoes? Period? You can also hunt up a copy of The History and Social Influence of the Potato by Redcliffe Salaman. 1949. reprinted with introduction and corrections by J. G. Hawkes, C.U.P., 1985. By the time you read all 600 plus pages of it then you'll have a pretty good grasp of what happened or might have happened with the potato through history. Johnna Holloway Johnnae llyn Lewis From: "Decker, Terry D." To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 16:27:05 -0600 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Carolus Clusius and the Kartoffel "Food: a Culinary History," a usually reliable source states that Clusius introduced the potato into the Low Countries in 1580. This is an error, for by his own words, Clusius was only introduced to the potato in 1587, "I received the first authentic information about this plant from Phillipus de Sivry, Dn. de Walhain and the Prefect of the City of Mons in Hannonia, of the Belgians, who sent two tuber of it, with its fruit, to me in Vienna, Austria, at the beginning of the year 1587, and in the following year, a drawing of the branch with a flower." De Sivry had obtained his potatoes from an employee of the Pontifical Delegation to Belgium in 1586. Looking a little further, I came across references to Clusius having introduced the potato to the Lowlands and to Germany in the 1580's. That Clusius comments in his Herbal (1601) about the potato being grown in some of the gardens of Germany, leads me to believe potatoes got to Germany without his assistance. As for introducing them to the Lowlands, Clusius was in Austria and Germany during this period. He did send potato seed to Johannes Hogeladius, who grew potatoes from them, which may represent their introduction into Holland, although I have not been able to determine where Hogeladius resided. This exchange of potato plants, seeds and information between botanists suggests that the potato was essentially unknown in northern Europe prior to 1586. Despite the Hospital de la Sangre in Seville ordering white potatoes as part of its stocks in 1573, Clusius' work tends to discount any widespread cultivationin Spain. The potato does not appear in Rarium aliquot stirpium per Hispanias observatarum historia , a thorough botanical study of the plants of Spain published in 1576. Information for this work was probably collected between 1563 and 1565, while he was Governor for Antione Fugger's sons during their educational travels and 1566 to 1571, when Clusius was living on a inheritance. The work appears to have been written while he was director of the Botanical Gardens in Vienna an appointment he received from Emperor Maximilian II. He also prepared a map of Spain for the geographer Abraham Ortelius, who was made geographer to Phillip II of Spain in 1575, which suggests that Clusius' knowledge of the plants of Spain was gained first hand. In 1601, Clusius points only to Germany and Italy as places where the potato was under cultivation. It should be noted that he had firsthand knowledge of Germany having resided in Frankfurt for many years and having patrons in Hesse and the Palatinate, while his comments about potatoes being eaten in Italy are qualified with "so they say." The Herbal of 1601, Rariorum plantarum historia, was published while he was professor of botany and first director of the botanical gardens at Leiden, Holland. That he does not mention cultivation of potatoes in Holland suggests that the potato was not found much outside of botanical collections in the Low Countries, despite claims they were being eaten their in the late 16th Century. An incomplete but useful biographical outline of Clusius can be found at: http://es.rice.edu/ES/humsoc/Galileo/Catalog/Files/lecluse.html Bear Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 08:52:19 -0700 From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Old World vs. New World Fruits To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org > I thought that yams and peanuts were African in origin and thus know > to late period Europeans. > > Daniel Depends on what *you* mean by yams. Nyame are African. But what is commonly calld "yam" in the USA is actually a form of sweet potato. If it's yellow or orange inside, it isn't a yam, it's a sweet potato. These are from North America and show up in the 16th c. as batata. There's at least one recipe in the Elizabethan corpus, and a rcipe or two in the Spanish-language corpus, and ISTR a possible recipe in the German-language corpus. *REAL* African yams - nyame - are white inside, and somewhat woody. Anahita Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 03:25:29 -0400 From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Old World vs. New World Fruits To: Cooks within the SCA > If it's yellow or orange inside, it isn't a yam, it's a sweet > potato. These are from North America and show up in the 16th c. as > batata. There's at least one recipe in the Elizabethan corpus, and a > recipe or two in the Spanish-language corpus, and ISTR a possible > recipe in the German-language corpus. http://waynesword.palomar.edu/ww0804.htm#columbus Archaeological evidence shows that sweet potatoes were cultivated in South America by 2400 B.C. and fossilized sweet potatoes from the Andes have been dated at 8,000 to 10,000 years old. Although the sweet potato is clearly native to South America, it was also cultivated in Polynesia as early as 1200 A.D. Ranvaig Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 17:27:15 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lost recipe? To: "Cooks within the SCA" > Please forgive me, I don't even know if this List is the one that had the > discussion about what I'm about to ask... someone, somewhen recently, was > discussing a late (LATE) 16th century recipe dealing with cooing sweet > potatoes and apples together. It intrigued me enough that I bought the > ingredients yesterday and now - I can't find the recipe! Does this > sound remotely familiar to anyone? > > Hrothny the confused Possibly this on from Dining with William Shakespeare? Bear Stewed Potatoes 1 1/2 pounds sweet potatoes 1 pound tart cooking apples 5 tbsp. Brown sugar 1/4 tsp. cinnamon 1/2 tsp. ginger 4 tbsp. Butter, diced 1/3 cup white wine vinegar 1/4 cup candied orange peel, dice Bake the potatoes in their dkins for 30 minutes at 400?. Peel them and cut them into thin slices. Core and peel the apples and slice them thin. Mix 3 tbsp. of the sugar with the cinnamon and ginger. Butter a casserole with one tbsp. of the butte and put a layer of sliced apples into it. Sprinkle a little of the sugar-spice mixture and bits of diced butter over them. Cover with a layer of sliced potatoes, sprinkle a little of the sugar-spice mixture and dot with butter. Continue layering appls and potatoes as above until all are in the casserole. Pour the wine vinegar over the top and sprinkle with the remaining two tbsp. of sugar. Cover and bake at 350? for 40 minutes or until the potatoes and apples are tender. Dot the dish with canded orange peel and serve hot. Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 20:48:08 -0400 From: Elaine Koogler Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lost recipe? To: Cooks within the SCA Terri Morgan wrote: > Please forgive e, I don't even know if this List is the one that had the > discussion about what I'm about to ask... someone, somewhen recently, was > discussing a late (LATE) 16th century recipe dealing with cooking sweet > potatoes and apples together. It intrgued me enough that I bought the > ingredients yesterday and now - I can't find the recipe! Does this > sound remotely familiar to anyone? > > Hrothny the confused I wasn't discussing it recently, but I have used such a recipe for a feast I coked for Lochmere's Night on the Town a couple of years back. The following is the recipe from Joseph Cooper, /The Art of Cookery Refin’d and Augmented /by way of Madge Lorwin's /Dining with William Shakespeare. /The dish was delicious and folks seemed to eally enjoy it. _Stewed Potatoes_ **1 1/2 pounds sweet potatoes 1 pound tart cooking apples 5 tbsp. Brown sugar 1/4 tsp. cinnamon 1/2 tsp. ginger 4 tbsp. Butter, diced 1/3 cup white wine vinegar 1/4 cup candied orange peel, diced Bake the potatoes in their skins for 30 minutes at 400°. Peel them and cut them into thin slices. Core and peel the apples and slice them thin. Mix 3 tbsp. of the sugar with the cinnamon and ginger. Butter a casserole with one tbsp. of the butter and put a layer of slice apples into it. Sprinkle a little of the sugar-spice mixture and bits of diced butter over them. Cover with a layer of sliced potatoes, sprinkle a little of the sugar-spice mixture and dot with butter. Continue layering apples and potatoes as abofve unti all are in the casserole. Pour the wine vinegar over the top and sprinkle with the remaining two tbsp. of sugar. Cover and bake at 350° for 40 minutes or until the potatoes and apples are tender. Dot the dish with candied orange peel and serve hot. Original: Boyle or roast your Potatoes very tender, and blanch [peel] them; cut them into thin slices, put them into a dish or stewing pan, put to them three or foure Pippins sliced thin, a good quantity of beaten Ginger and Cynamon, Verjuice, Sugar and butte; stew these together an hour very softly; dish them being stewed enough, putting to them Butter and Verjuice beat together, and stick it full of green Sucket or Oreengado, or some such liquid sweet-meat; sippit it and scrape Sugar on it, and serve it up ot to the table. – Joseph Cooper, /The Art of Cookery Refin’d and Augmented./ Lorwin, Madge. /Dining with William Shakespeare./ Kiri Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:32:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Huette von Ahrens Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] musings on nightshade To: Cooks within the SCA --- Terry Decker wrote: > White potatoes are just late coming to the party and weren't as appreciated > as the sweet potato. They may have arrived as early as 1539. The first > reference to them being used in Europe is in Seville in the 1570's. They > don't arrive in England until 1586 and Northern Europe until 1587 as > botanical specimens and most references to them are as botanical specimens. > As a crop, the earliest adopters appear to be the Irish around the end of > the 16th Century and it is the Irish that bring the white potato to North > America in 1719. There are references to them being planted in various > parts of Europe in the 17th Century, probably as a hedge against invasion > and grain failures, but general use isn't documentable until the mid-18th > Century. One speculation is the more temperately adapted Chilean potato was > introduced at that time. > > Bear Alan Davidson mentions different dates. The Spanish first encountered them in Colombia in 1537 and called them "truffles". The potato was introduced to Spain in the 1550's. And also to Italy, but the variety introduced had climatic requirements that Spain and Italy could not meet and this variety was small, watery and somewhat bitter, and therefore unappealing. He also says, "It is generally accepted that potatoes were introduced to the British Isles (including Ireland) during the 1590's." He goes on to relate that Protestants refused to plant potatoes and one reason was that they weren't mentioned in the Bible. Irish Catholics got around this by "sprinkling their seed potatoes with holy water and planting them on Good Friday." Davidson goes on to say that Gerard appears to have "muddled" potatoes with another American tuber called "openauk". Huette Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:54:34 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] musings on nightshade To: "Cooks within the SCA" > Alan Davidson mentions different dates. The Spanish first encountered > them in Colombia in 1537 and called them "truffles". Gonzalo Jiminez de Quesada was the leader of the first expedition (1536) into the Colombian highlands and is often credited with discovering the potato. The 1537 date roughly conicides with the establishment of a Spanish presence in Quito. De Quesada was joined by two other expeditions, those of Sebastian de Benalcazar and Nikolaus Federmann (in the employ of the Welsers) The three returned to Spain in 1539 and de Benalcazar was awarded governorship of the region. Davidson and I don't mention different dates, we are dating different occurences in the same time frame. > The potato was introduced to Spain in the 1550's. The first printed reference to white potatoes is in Pedro Creca de Leon's "Chronica del Peru" (1553). Some authorities believe Creca actually introduced potatoes in the late 1540's. Others speculate on later introduction. The first evidence of cultivation in Spain is in 1573 when they appear in a record of provisions purchased for the Hospital de la Sangre in Seville. Potatoes do not appear in Carolus Clusius' Spanish Herbal of 1576. > And also to Italy, but the variety introduced had climatic requirements that > Spain and Italy could not > meet and this variety was small, watery and somewhat bitter, and therefore > unappealing. Probably true, but I'd like to know the source. The Chilean potato was better adapted for a temperate climate, but would not have been available before about 1541 at the earliest. There is a debate about precisely when Chilean potatoes came to Europe and whether or not they might have been the source of the potato blight. > He also > says, "It is generally accepted that potatoes were introduced to the > British Isles (including Ireland) during the 1590's." Generally accepted, doesn't mean it is necessarily so. However, Johnna was able to provide me with a reference to a 1606 land lease in County Down for growing flax and potatoes. Presumably in 1663, the Royal Society urged that potatoes be grown as famine food, so cultivation may not have been widespread. > He goes on to relate that Protestants refused to plant potatoes > and one reason was that they weren't mentioned in the Bible. Irish > Catholics got around this > by "sprinkling their seed potatoes with holy water and planting them on > Good Friday." Source? > Davidson goes on to say that Gerard appears to have "muddled" potatoes > with another American tuber called "openauk". > > Huette This is a debated point. How you muddle potatoes with groundnuts when neither has been described in the scientific literature is something of a mystery to me, but I will assume it can happen. Gerard refers to the plants as "potatoes of Virginia" and there were no potatoes in cultivation in North America prior to the 18th Century. Openauk is commonly considered to be Apios americana, the American groundnut, which was growing in Virginia at the time. You will find it mentioned in Thomas Hariot's "A Briefe and True Report of the New Found Land in Virginia" (1588). It may be that the plants Gerard received in 1586 were groundnuts, but they might also be South American potatoes. The problem is the samples were brought to England in 1586 by the fleet that rescued the Roanoke colonists (the first colony, the second colony of 1587 is the one that disappeared). The fleet, under the command of Francis Drake, had been engaged in looting the Spanish and had seized and sacked Cartagena, Colombia during which stay, he reprovisioned his ships. Drake then sailed northward to Florida and along the North American coast to Virginia before striking for home. With more ships than men to sail them, Drake was quite willing to turn several over to the colonists to sail them home. The potatoes Gerard received could have been South American potatoes taken in the sack of Cartagena and delivered by one of the Virginia colonists. In any event, the key player in the introduction of the potato to Northern Europe is Carolus Clusius, who received his first sample in 1587 and disseminated samples to other botanists across Northern Europe. The record of how and where he got his sample is recorded in his 1601 herbal, "I received the first authentic information about this plant from Phillipus de Sivry, Dn. De Walhain and the Prefect of the City of Mons in Hannonia, of the Belgians, who sent two tuber of it, with its fruit, to me in Vienna, Austria, at the beginning of the year 1587; and in the following year, a drawing of the branch with a flower. He wrote that he had received it the preceeding year from a certain employee of the Pontifical Legation in Belgium. . "The Italians do not know where they were first produced. Certain it is, however, that they were obtained either from Spain or from America. It is a great wonder to me that, when it was so comman and frequent in the Italian settlements (so they say), that they feast upon these tubers, cooked with the flesh of mutton, in the same manner as upon turnips and carrots, they give themselves the advantage of such nourishment, and allow news of the plant to reach us in such an off-hand way. Now, indeed, in many gardens in Germany it is quite common because it is very fruitful." Bear Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:23:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Huette von Ahrens Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] musings on nightshade To: Cooks within the SCA --- Terry Decker wrote: > He goes on to relate that Protestants refused to plant potatoes >> and one reason was that they weren't mentioned in the Bible. Irish >> Catholics got around this >> by "sprinkling their seed potatoes with holy water and planting them >> on Good Friday." > > Source? It is hard to tell where he found that. His bibliography is huge [26 pages]. At the end of the entire article he gives us these books for further reading. Since I have neither of them, I can't tell you which provided what. Or if he found this someplace else entirely. I could tell you to ask him, but that might take a ouija board or a medium. Barehan, Lindsay In Praise of the Potato. London, Grafton Books, 1991. Robyns, Gwen The Potato Cookbook. London, Pan Books, 1980. You really need to buy his book. It is only $30 in paperback new. It is the winner of the James Beard Foundation Book Award. Huette Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 21:43:49 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] musings on nightshade To: "Cooks within the SCA" > Barehan, Lindsay > In Praise of the Potato. London, Grafton Books, 1991. > > Robyns, Gwen > The Potato Cookbook. London, Pan Books, 1980. > > You really need to buy his book. It is only $30 in paperback new. It is > the winner of the James Beard Foundation Book Award. > > Huette 'Tis a wonder that the poor white potato draws such fire when the same could be said of the sweet potato, tomato, chili pepper, etc. It makes me think the tales are apocryphal. If it's not, then I shouldn't have to waken the old boy from his final repose, it will be documented somewhere. I haven't heard of the two books listed, but I would have chosen: Salaman, Redcliffe N., The History and Social Influence of the Potato and Hawkes, J.G., The Potato: Evolution, Biodiversity, and Genetic Resources, which probably says something about the way each of us thinks. I should break down and get The Oxford Companion to Food, but other interesting tomes keep bubbling up to the top of the list. Bear Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:04:07 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] musings on nightshade To: Cooks within the SCA I am sorry but Bareham and Robyns are the sources for the cookery section. The history section in the OUP hardcover lists Wilson and Salaman. This would be-- C. Anne Wilson's Food and Drink in Britain 1973 and this classic work The History and Social Influence of the Potato by Redcliffe N. Salaman. The second edition is edited by J. G. Hawkes and is still available in paperback from Cambridge University Press. Once you've acquired Salaman, another that fits in nicely is The Story of the Potato through Illustrated Varieties by Alan Wilson. It's a UK work on heirloom varieties of the last 250 years and the history of the potato. Bear later mentioned <>and > Hawkes, J.G., The Potato: Evolution, Biodiversity, and GeneticResources, > which probably says something about the way each of us thinks. He's of course the editor of the earlier Salaman book. Hope this helps Johnnae > --- Bear asked-- what sources Alan Davidson used-- > Huette von Ahrens wrote: > It is hard to tell where he found that. His bibliography is huge [26 > pages]. At the end of the > entire article he gives us these books for further reading. Since I > have neither of them, I > can't tell you which provided what. Or if he found this someplace > else entirely. I could tell > you to ask him, but that might take a ouija board or a medium. > Barehan, Lindsay In Praise of the Potato. London, Grafton Books, 1991. > Robyns, Gwen The Potato Cookbook. London, Pan Books, 1980. > > You really need to buy his book. It is only $30 in paperback new. It > is the winner of the James Beard Foundation Book Award. > > Huette Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:12:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Huette von Ahrens Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] musings on nightshade To: Cooks within the SCA --- Johnna Holloway wrote: > I am sorry but Bareham and Robyns are the sources for the cookery section. > The history section in the OUP hardcover lists Wilson and Salaman. > This would be-- > C. Anne Wilson's Food and Drink in Britain 1973 and this classic work > The History and Social Influence of the Potato by Redcliffe N. Salaman. > The second edition is edited by J. G. Hawkes > and is still available in paperback from Cambridge University Press. I missed that in the Penguin version. It was on another page. It is there also. Sigh. Huette Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:11:40 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] musings on nightshade To: "Cooks within the SCA" Hawkes is the editor for the latest edition of Salaman. Having completed that, he wrote his own book on the potato to cover work that has been done since Salaman wrote his text. I gather these are the two "must have" books for scientists studying Solanum tuberosum. Bear >> I haven't heard of the two books listed, but I would have chosen: >> Salaman, Redcliffe N., The History and Social Influence of the Potato > > This is listed in his bibliography, so it must have been used. > > and >> Hawkes, J.G., The Potato: Evolution, Biodiversity, and Genetic Resources, >> which probably says something about the way each of us thinks. > > This isn't in his bibliography. > Huette Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 11:00:22 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Feast To: "Cooks within the SCA" And did the people who provided the recipe give you a citation of sources, or did they just assure you it was period? Acceptance of bad scholarship promotes error. The recipe in question is probably derived from Aresty's The Delectable Past wherein is a recipe for Rosti said to be taken from "an early German cookbook" (the cookbook of Anna Weckerin, which is about 1598, IIRC). I'm cautious when dealing with Aresty as she does not include precise sources or original recipes in her work. I've been looking for a number of years and I've yet to find the source, a transcription or a translation of the Rosti recipe. As for potatoes in Europe, the earliest reference is from Spain in the 1570's. Gerard received his samples in 1586. And Carollus Clusius, who is probably responsible for the spread of potatoes to botanists across Northern Europe, received his first sample in 1587. In 1601, Clusius noted," It is a great wonder to me that, when it was so comman and frequent in the Italian settlements (so they say), that they feast upon these tubers, cooked with the flesh of mutton, in the same manner as upon turnips and carrots, they give themselves the advantage of such nourishment, and allow news of the plant to reach us in such an off-hand way." In 1591, Wilhelm IV von Hessen wrote to Christian I von Sachsen and included a recipe for taratouphili in the letter. "We also send to your Highness among other things a plant that we got from Italy some years ago, called Taratouphli (.) Below, at the root, there hand many tubers. If they are cooked these tubers are very good to eat. But you must first boil them in water, so that the outer shell (peeling?) gets off, then pour the cooking water away, and cook them to the point in butter." So, pot roast or stew and boiled potatoes, but no Rosti. Personally, for a feast, I would choose sweet potatoes over white potatoes. There are a number of actual recipes and historical evidence that they were well known and in much wider use than white potatoes. Bear Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 12:32:49 -0400 From: Elaine Koogler Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Feast To: Cooks within the SCA Terry Decker wrote: > So, pot roast or stew and boiled potatoes, but no Rosti. > > Personally, for a feast, I would choose sweet potatoes over white > potatoes. There are a number of actual recipes and historical evidence > that they were well known and in much wider use than white potatoes. > > Bear I agree. There's a wonderful late period recipe that I found in Dining with William Shakespeare: _Stewed Potatoes_ * * 1 1/2 pounds sweet potatoes 1 pound tart cooking apples 5 tbsp. Brown sugar 1/4 tsp. cinnamon 1/2 tsp. ginger 4 tbsp. Butter, diced 1/3 cup white wine vinegar 1/4 cup candied orange peel, diced Bake the potatoes in their skins for 30 minutes at 400°. Peel them and cut them into thin slices. Core and peel the apples and slice them thin. Mix 3 tbsp. of the sugar with the cinnamon and ginger. Butter a casserole with one tbsp. of the butter and put a layer of sliced apples into it. Sprinkle a little of the sugar-spice mixture and bits of diced butter over them. Cover with a layer of sliced potatoes, sprinkle a little of the sugar-spice mixture and dot with butter. Continue layering apples and potatoes as abofve until all are in the casserole. Pour the wine vinegar over the top and sprinkle with the remaining two tbsp. of sugar. Cover and bake at 350° for 40 minutes or until the potatoes and apples are tender. Dot the dish with candied orange peel and serve hot. Original: Boyle or roast your Potatoes very tender, and blanch [peel] them; cut them into thin slices, put them into a dish or stewing pan, put to them three or foure Pippins sliced thin, a good quantity of beaten Ginger and Cynamon, Verjuice, Sugar and butter; stew these together an hour very softly; dish them being stewed enough, putting to them Butter and Verjuice beat together, and stick it full of green Sucket or Oreengado, or some such liquid sweet-meat; sippit it and scrape Sugar on it, and serve it up hot to the table. – Joseph Cooper, /The Art of Cookery Refin’d and Augmented./ Lorwin, Madge. /Dining with William Shakespeare./ This is a wonderful dish and one that I suspect teens might like. I also like the other things you've chosen. They seem to be mostly familiar things and you're doing something that I think is great...kids get a big kick out of learning that something they've been eating all their lives, like macaroni and cheese, is actually a Medieval dish...like Loysyns. Kiri Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 18:16:18 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OOP: Question about potato types... To: "Cooks within the SCA" Ipomoea batatas is Ipomoea batatas and is purely New World. Apparently they come in a fairly wide range of creams, yellows and oranges, but we usually get stuck with the orange sweet potato because that is what everybody expects. There may be a textural difference with the lighter colored sweet potatoes, but the orange ones should work okay. Bear > Oddly, though, there's a note with the recipe talking about the specific > type of potato to be used. The author describes these sweet potatoes as > "longer than ordinary potatoes ...[with] a pinkish or yellowish skin with > yellow or white flesh." > I'm not sure if they're talking about the American standard sweet potato/yam > or not, since I would describe the coloring of mine as a dark orange. Are > there types of potatoes used in Indian cooking that are not widely known > here in the US? Would my American yam/sweet potato work well enough? > --Maire, in the mood for some serious beta-carotene ;o) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 16:41:06 -0800 (PST) From: Pat Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OOP: Question about potato types... To: Cooks within the SCA I don't know, it may be a different variety. However, IMO, of the sweet potatoes we buy here in the Southeastern U.S., the stouter, orange fleshed ones tend to be sweeter and fuller tasting than the longer, yellow fleshed ones. The yellow ones tend to more often taste as if they hadn't had sufficient time or nutrients or something to get completely and properly "ripe". Mordonna Lady Anne du Bosc known as Mordonna the Cook Shire of Thorngill, Meridies Mundanely, Pat Griffin of Millbrook, AL Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 08:30:22 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Penguins and potatoes was medieval dog recipes To: , "Cooks within the SCA" > I had always understood that the references to Virginia Potatoes > were to Jerusalem Artichokes... > > Capt Elias Let's dispel that idea with two quotes (lifted from Cindy Renfrow's website) from Gerard's Herbal: "Flos Solis Pyramidalis. Jerusalem Artichoke. These rootes are dressed in diuers waies; some boile them in water, and after stew them with sacke and butter, adding a little Ginger: others bake them in pies, putting Marrow, Dates, Ginger, Raisons of the Sun, Sacke, &c. Others some other way, as they are led by their skill in Cookerie. But in my iudgement, which way soeuer they be drest and eaten they stirre and cause a filthie loathsome stinking winde within the bodie, thereby causing the belly to bee pained and tormented, and are a meat more fit for swine, than men..." "Battata Virginiana, siue Virginianorum, & Pappus. Virginian Potatoes. The temperature and vertues be referred vnto the common [sweet] Potatoes, being likewise a food, as also a meate for pleasure, equall in goodnesse and wholesomenesse vnto the same, being either rosted in the embers, or boyled and eaten with oyle, vinegar, and pepper, or dressed any other way by the hand of some cunning in cookerie." While these quotes are from the 1633 edition of the Herbal, it is obvious Gerard knew the difference between the two plants, ergo Virginia Potatoes and Jerusalem Artichokes are two different critters. It is possible that the plant in question is a root the natives called Openauk, as described in Thomas Heriot's (or Hariot) "A briefe and true report of the new found land of Virginia..." ( http://docsouth.unc.edu/nc/hariot/hariot.html ) as quoted here: "OPENAVK are a kind of roots of round forme, some of the bignes of walnuts, some far greater, which are found in moist & marish grounds growing many together one by another in ropes, or as thogh they were fastnened with a string. Being boiled or sodden they are very good meate." The other possibility put forth is they are potatoes from the sack of Cartagena. Gerard received his specimens in 1586 and his nomenclature ties the speciemens to Virginia. He either received them from a member of the fleet that had returned from its last stop in Virginia or he received them from someone who already had specimens they were working with. The former favors the white potato, but can not rule out the Openauk. The latter would almost certainly be an Openauk. In support of the Cartagena theory is the historical record of Drake's fleet. El Draco's Caribbean raid was with a fleet of over 20 ships and 2400 men. By the time they reached Virginia, the fleet has in bad shape with over half of the men dead and many others sick. The colonists weren't doing well, so Drake consolidated his crews and gave the colonists the ships they needed to come home. Given the state of the colony, they probably didn't have much to resupply a vessel and most of the stores would have been what was left from Cartagena and St. Augustine (Florida), if any stores were siezed during their last raid. Solanum tuberosum from other sources were described by other naturalists over the next 15 years, so Gerard's Potatoes of Virginia are more curiosity than serious consideration. Since we haven't discovered any information about who and where he received the specimens from, all references to what they were and their place of origin is speculation and opinion. Being of a pyratical bent, I kinda like the Cartagena theory. Choose the one you like. The only requirement is it fit the facts and it be labelled speculation. Bear Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 21:00:06 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: [Sca-cooks] Anna Wecker and sauteed potatoes To: "Cooks within the SCA" I decided to waste a little time chasing the elusive "Rosti" recipe of Anna Wecker as presented by Esther B. Aresty in The Delectible Past. So I went to Aresty to examine the evidence. Aresty states, "...and in 1598 one Swiss cook--Anna Weckerin--completed the first cookbook ever written by a woman. A recipe in it bore a close resemblence to Rosti..." This says to me that Aresty is prone to overstatement and error. Anna Wecker did not complete the first cookbook written by a woman, although she is probably the first to have a cookbook published and distributed by a commercial printer. The original publication was in 1597. And "a close resemblence" is an unscholarly excuse to segue to a modern recipe. Of interest to me, was the fact that Wecker does not appear in the list of Aresty's collection as presented in The Delectible Past, therefore, we have no idea which edition was being quoted. According to Henry Notaker, the original Wecker, Ein kostlich new Kochbuch, was first published by Forster in Amberg, Germany in 1597. Forster also released editions in 1598, 1600, and 1607. A 1609 edition was released by Ludwig Konig of Basel. An expanded and revised 1620 edition by Konig was renamed, New kostlich and nutzliches Kochbuch. In Notaker's opinion, the expanded recipes were taken from Johann Deckhardt's New Kunstreich und Nutzliches Kochbuch published in Leipzig in 1611. Konig's editions of 1652, 1667, and 1679 appear to be copies of the 1620 edition. If Notaker's publication history of Wecker is accurate, and I have no reason to believe it is not, it is possible that the recipe for potatoes referenced by Aresty is actually an early 17th Century artifact from Deckhardt rather than Wecker. Bear Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 12:03:22 +0100 From: Volker Bach Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Anna Wecker and sauteed potatoes To: Cooks within the SCA Am Dienstag, 31. Januar 2006 04:00 schrieb Terry Decker: >>> I decided to waste a little time chasing the elusive "Rosti" recipe of Anna Wecker as presented by Esther B. Aresty in The Delectible Past. So I went to Aresty to examine the evidence. Aresty states, "...and in 1598 one Swiss cook--Anna Weckerin-- completed the first cookbook ever written by a woman. A recipe in it bore a close resemblence to Rosti..." <<< Does she give a page reference or name? I have a reprint of the 1598 edition here, and I can't find anything that would suggest pan-fried potatoes or root vegetables. De Rontzier (roughly the same timeframe) has a recipe for these (we are not entirely sure which ones. He calls them 'Erdnuess' - earth nuts - which led modern interpreters to read peanuts), but they don't involve eggs or bacon, but sugar and orange juice. >>> This says to me that Aresty is prone to overstatement and error. Anna Wecker did not complete the first cookbook written by a woman, although she is probably the first to have a cookbook published and distributed by a commercial printer. The original publication was in 1597. And "a close resemblence" is an unscholarly excuse to segue to a modern recipe. Of interest to me, was the fact that Wecker does not appear in the list of Aresty's collection as presented in The Delectible Past, therefore, we have no idea which edition was being quoted. <<< Most likely the 1598, as it is AFAIK the only one that was reprinted in facsimile. >>> If Notaker's publication history of Wecker is accurate, and I have no reason to believe it is not, it is possible that the recipe for potatoes referenced by Aresty is actually an early 17th Century artifact from Deckhardt rather than Wecker. <<< It may as well be a misunderstanding. Many German dialects at the time used words like 'Erdäpfel' (earth apples) and Erdnüsse (earth nuts) for various roots or tubers of uncertain species. Today, these words denote potatoes and peanuts, respectively, but at the time of their introduction, they did not, or at least not exclusively. A mid-18th century north German cookbook still distinguishes between 'Bataten' (prob. sweet potatoes, though these may be regular potatoes) and 'Erdaepfel' (probably potatoes, though this may still be a reference to some old world roots). Giano Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 12:12:47 -0500 From: Johnna Holloway Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Anna Wecker and sauteed potatoes To: Cooks within the SCA There are 1598 editions, but they are very rare. Only one copy at LC and one copy in Germany are listed. Indiana's Lilly Library has another. Aresty apparently owned this edition: Author: Wecker, Anna, d. 1596 or 7. Title: Ein köstlich new Kochbuch von allerhand Speisen an Gemüsen, Obs, Fleisch, Geflügel, Wildpret, Fischen vnd Gebachens : nicht allein für Gesunde, sondern auch vnd fürnemlich für Krancke, in allerley Kranckheiten vnd Gebresten, auch schwangere Weiber, Kindbetterinnen, vnd alte schwache Leuthe ... dergleichen vormals nie im Truck aussgangen / Alles mit sonderm Fleiss beschrieben durch F. Anna Weckerin, Weiland Herrn D. Johann Jacob Weckers, des berühmten Medici seeligen, nachgelassene Wittib. Publisher: Getruckt zu Basel : In Verlegung Ludwig Königs, Anno Domini 1605. Description: Book [16], 346, [8] p. ; 16 cm. (8vo) You'll note that this edition isn't listed by Notaker. Cagle in his bibliography says that the 1597 edition has been listed but no edition has been found. See A Matter of Taste for more details. Johnnae >>>>> I decided to waste a little time chasing the elusive "Rosti" recipe of Anna Wecker as presented by Esther B. Aresty in The Delectible Past. So I went to Aresty to examine the evidence. Of interest to me, was the fact that Wecker does not appear in the list of Aresty's collection as presented in The Delectible Past, therefore, we have no idea which edition was being quoted. <<<<< Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 10:42:27 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Anna Wecker and sauteed potatoes To: "Cooks within the SCA" >> Aresty states, "...and in 1598 one Swiss cook--Anna Weckerin--completed >> the first cookbook ever written by a woman. A recipe in it bore a close >> resemblence to Rosti..." > > Does she give a page reference or name? I have a reprint of the 1598 edition > here, and I can't find anything that would suggest pan-fried potatoes or root > vegetables. De Rontzier (roughly the same timeframe) has a recipe for these > (we are not entirely sure which ones. He calls them 'Erdnuess' - earth nuts - > which led modern interpreters to read peanuts), but they don't involve > eggs or bacon, but sugar and orange juice. What you see is what you get. Aresty does not give accurate bibliographic references, decent footnotes, original recipes or accurate adaptations. Erdnuess could as easily be an American groundnut (Apios americana) as peanuts, and the groundnut would grow better in Germany. Without a careful linguistic analysis, I'd be hesitant to declare them peanuts, groundnuts or whatever. I have some reservations about how quickly peanuts spread in Europe. > It may as well be a misunderstanding. Many German dialects at the time used > words like 'Erdäpfel' (earth apples) and Erdnüsse (earth nuts) for various > roots or tubers of uncertain species. Today, these words denote potatoes and > peanuts, respectively, but at the time of their introduction, they did not, > or at least not exclusively. A mid-18th century north German cookbook still > distringuishes between 'Bataten' (prob. sweet potatoes, though these may be > regular potatoes) and 'Erdaepfel' (probably potatoes, though this may > still be a reference to some old world roots). > > Giano At least one German linguist ties Erdapfel to "melopepones," a round, ribbed cucurbit, which at the time the Latin noun was coined, would have been a melon. At the end of the 16th Century in Germany, Erdapfel could have easily been a New World squash. By the 18th Century, the name could have been transferred to white potatoes. I too would suspect "Bataten" to be sweet potatoes. There is a late 16th Century letter exchange between the rulers of Saxony and Hesse (IIRC the states), where the preparation of potatoes is discussed and the reference is to Tartoffelen (sic?). Bear Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 16:52:42 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Anna Wecker and sauteed potatoes To: "Cooks within the SCA" >> Of interest to me, was the fact that Wecker does not appear in the >> list of Aresty's collection as presented in The Delectible Past, >> therefore, we have no idea which edition was being quoted. > > Most likely the 1598, as it is AFAIK the only one that was > reprinted in facsimile. > > Giano From the sound of this you're making the assumption that Aresty used a facsimile edition. I believe you will find the first facsimile (1598) edition was a German publication in 1977. Aresty's The Delectible Past was published in 1964. Aresty was a noted collector of old cookbooks, largely in manuscript or first edition. She was also a well known author on matters culinary and was well connected in the academic community, being a Princeton faculty wife. She might consider using a facsimile a little gauche. Johnna has shown that she probably owned a 1605 Konig edition of Wecker by 1996 when Aresty donated her collection to the University of Pennsylvania. However, to quote Aresty in The Delectible Past, "I have not included the many German books; they begin with Ein Koch und Erzen Buch, Gratz, 1686." This suggests that she had not yet added a copy of Wecker to her collection in 1964, which leaves the question of which edition she was referencing wide open. Bear Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 07:12:48 -0500 From: Johnna Holloway Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Anna Wecker and sauteed potatoes To: Cooks within the SCA The original book was written for a general audience. Footnotes in a popular cookbook published by Simon & Schuster. Surely you jest. So no footnotes, but she really assembled a collection-- http://www.library.upenn.edu/exhibits/rbm/aresty/aresty1.html Johnnae > Great, like we need to create *more* mysteries in our line of > business... > > Thanks for the input. You'd think a Princeton faculty wife would > know what a footnote is for. > Giano Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 16:26:13 -0500 From: "Daniel Phelps" Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Potato question To: "Cooks within the SCA" Well, for what it is worth ,the words potato and potatoes are each Mentioned once in the Bard's plays. Let the sky rain potatoes. Falstaff, The Merry Wives of Windsor, 5,5 Reay Tannahill in "Food in History" 2nd ed. Writes in their regard: "By 1573 they were common enough for the Hospital de la Sangre to order them in at the same time as other stocks." Salaman, p. 143 "The History and Influence of the Potato" 1949. According to her "it reached England direct from the Americas when Sir Francis Drake, on the way to Virginia in 1586, put into Cartagena in the Caribbean to revictual and brought some home with him." Magulonne Toussaint-Samat in "History of Food" asserts that the potato was painted in its botanical splendor in water color in approximately 1580 by Pierre de l'Ecluse. The OED suggests that there is some confusion in the 16th and 17th centuries regards the plant the word refers to. It cites the earliest use of the word as batatos to 1555. Daniel Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 08:49:29 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Potato question To: "Cooks within the SCA" > Well, for what it is worth ,the words potato and potatoes are each > mentioned once in the Bard's plays. > > Let the sky rain potatoes. Falstaff, The Merry Wives of Windsor, 5,5 There are actually a couple of references to potatoes in Shakespeare, but these are references to sweet potatoes, the common potato of the day. > Magulonne Toussaint-Samat in "History of Food" asserts that the potato was > painted in its botanical splendor in water color in approximately > 1580 by Pierre de l'Ecluse. Really? I think Toussaint-Samat is in error. Charles de l'Ecluse (Carolus Clusius), by his own statement, received his first specimen of Solanum tuberosum in 1587. I've done quite a bit of research on the subject and never encountered Pierre de l'Ecluse in relation to the potato (if vague memory serves, he was Charles father, and I wouldn't stand by that until I double checked it). > The OED suggests that there is some confusion in the 16th and 17th centuries > regards the plant the word refers. It cites the earliest use of > the word as batatos to 1555. > > Daniel The quote you reference is from a translation of Peter Martyr and begins, "In Hispanola,..." As Martyr wrote the work in 1511-12, the plant being referenced is the sweet potato (Ipomea batata). The first reference to (sweet) potatoes is actually found in Christopher Columbus's journal of his first voyage to America. The potatoes referenced in most of the 16th Century English texts can be shown to be sweet potates by time and location. One possible exception is Drake's circumnavigation and his replenishing stores off the coast of Chile. The confusion appears to begin with Gerard's identification of "potatoes of Virginia." Bear Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 22:15:26 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] suggestions To: "Cooks within the SCA" > But forget the potatoes and green beans. They are not period. > > Huette Not exactly. There is a letter from Wilhelm IV von Hessen to Christian I von Sachsen describing the preparation of taratouphli and dated 1591, wherein one finds the following recipe: The preparation of Taratouphli (1591) Translated by Thomas Gloning "We also send to your Highness among other things a plant that we got from Italy some years ago, called Taratouphli (.) Below, at the root, there hand many tubers. If they are cooked these tubers are very good to eat. But you must first boil them in water, so that the outer shell (peeling?) gets off, then pour the cooking water away, and cook them to the point in butter." In general, sweet potatoes (also called the common potato or the Spanish potato) were more common in late period cooking. Bear Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 22:43:35 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: potatoes and personal "issues" ; )....was RE: [Sca-cooks] suggestions To: "Cooks within the SCA" I find Gerard a little iffy. White potatoes don't show up in Northern Europe until 1586-87. Sweet potatoes, on the otherhand, could have been introduced into England as early as 1509 or as late as 1570. Hawkins writes about eating them in the Caribbean in 1563 and it is very possible that he introduced them into England 10 years earlier from his raids on the Portuguese slave trade. If you really wanted to play with white potatoes at a feast, I'd go very late German, using Rumpolt's recipes for turkey and erdapfel (which I would translate as a New World round shaped squash) and the recipe I posted a little bit ago for white potaotes. Maybe a little Rotkohl. Bear Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 07:50:20 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] suggestions To: "Cooks within the SCA" > Most of what I can read of taratouphli online is that one or two sites say > it was the Virginian Potato. Is that the sweet potato? > Lyse "Potatoes of Virginia" is from Gerard and he received those in 1586. The problem is there were no potatoes (sweet or white) in Virginia at the time. Either Gerard is describing a tuberous plant that is not Solanum tuberosum or the potatoes were from the provisions taken at Cartagena by Sir Francis Drake (Drake's returning fleet brought the original Virginia colony back to England). It is believed that Drake encountered white potatoes in Chile in his circumnavigation of the world and would have recognized them as food. Considering his entry on sweet potatoes, it is obvious Gerard knew the difference: "Sisarum Peruvianum, siue Batata Hispanorum. Potato's. The Potato roots are among the Spaniards, Italians, Indians, and many other nations common and ordinarie meate; which no doubt are of mighty and nourishing parts... being tosted in the embers they lose much of their windinesse, especially being eaten sopped in wine. Of these roots may be made conserues no lesse toothsome, wholesome, and dainty than of the flesh of Quinces: and likewise those comfortable and delicate meats called in shops Morselli, Placentulae, and diuers other such like. These Roots may serue as a ground or foundation whereon the cunning Confectioner or Sugar-Baker may worke and frame many comfortable delicate Conserues, and restoratiue sweete meates. They are vsed to be eaten rosted in the ashes. Some when they be so rosted infuse them and sop them in Wine; and others to giue them the greater grace in eating, do boyle them with prunes, and so eate them. And likewise others dresse them (being first rosted) with Oyle, Vineger, and salt, euerie man according to his owne taste and liking. Notwithstanding howsoeuer they bee dressed, they comfort, nourish, and strengthen the body, procuring bodily lust, and that with greedinesse." Other than Gerard's samples, most of the botanical samples of Solanum tuberosum in Northern Europe appear to derive from samples originally presented to the Pope from Spain and grown in the Vatican gardens. There is also a high probability that other samples were imported into Italy from Spain and grown there. The plant was commonly christened "taratouphli" because the small tubers resembled truffles. In German, taratouphli became die Kartoffel, while the sweet potato is die Batata. BTW, batata is Taino for sweet potato and its use is a direct derivation via Spain. Other than the webbed entry for potatoes from The Cambridge World History of Food, I have yet to see a site that is both thorough and accurate when discussing potatoes. The fact is the information on a great many websites has been plagarized from easy to find sources by people unwilling to do basic research, the errors and opinions propagate and are accepted as fact. For example, I encountered a number of sources that state that Jiminez Gonzalo de Quesada discovered white potatoes. The reality is that de Quesada was the leader of an expedition into Ecuador and the founder of modern Quito and his expedition was the first into the original potato growing regions of the Andes. This discounts the fact that there were two other expeditions in the area at the same time or the possibility that Pizzaro might have encountered potatoes slightly earlier. I've been chasing information on potatoes for a number of years and I keep finding enough references that I need to revise my SCA lecture on potatoes every year or two. Bear Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 11:03:00 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] suggestions To: "Cooks within the SCA" > Wouldn't that depend on the definition of 'Virginia' at the time? We know > that sweet potatoes were being grown in the Caribbean, South America and > tropical North America at the time, so it's quite possible that (except > for the effects of the 'little ice age' in America), sweet potatoes may > have been growing in what is now North Carolina. Virginia has a specific meaning in this context and it relates directly to the first Roanoke Colony founded on Roanoke Island in 1585 and returned to England in 1586. Thomas Hariot's "A Briefe and True Report of the New Found Land of Virginia" (1588) describes the plants being grown by the natives and, glory be, potatoes of any description are not among them. > Of course, calling something 'Virginia' anything doesn't necessarily have > anything to do with the *origin* of an item, only where it was > *encountered* by the person whose name for the item stuck: Jerusalem > Artichoke, Brussel Sprout, Raisins of Corinth, Plaster of Paris, Boston > Fern, Yorkshire Pudding, etc. > > Someone earlier mentioned introducing sweet potatoes to England and I > question that, since sweet potatoes can't grow in that cold of a climate > (and, no, I reject the idea that the entire British Isles are covered with > green houses :) ), especially during the 'little ice age'. You can't grow sugar cane in England, but 16th Century England did a lot of cooking with sugar and cinnamon and ginger and nutmeg. There are some English recipes for sweet potato from the late 16th and early 17th Century and a couple of quotes from Shakespere, that suggest England knew and ate sweet potatoes. While England probably wasn't covered with greenhouse, many large estates had them and used them to experiment with new plants. > More likely that Drake found white potatoes in Columbia, not Chile. > > -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > Tom Vincent > -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Really? Most modern potatoes are derived from Chilean plants which were better adapted to altitude, weather and temperature differences than the High Andean potatoes. According to "The famous voyage of Sir Francis Drake into the South Sea, and hence about the whole globe of the earth, begun in the year of our Lord, 1577," Drake anchored at an island off the coast of Chile on 29 November 1578, where he made contact with the natives and, "...people came down to us to the waterside with show of great courtesy, bringing to us potatoes, roots, and two very fat sheep..." Drake knew sweet potatoes having eaten them during his initial sea venture under John Hawkins in 1568, so it is believed that the potatoes mentioned are sweet potatoes. The "roots" are believed to have been white potatoes. There are other primary sources about the voyage I have not tracked down, so further information about the foodstuffs may be available. So in all deference to the speculation, it is equally as likely that Drake encountered white potatoes in Chile and in Columbia. Another speculation is that Gerard received samples of Apios americana rather than Solanum tuberosum and it was A. americana that was described as "Potatoes of Virginia." The American groundnut was being grown and eaten in Virginia at the time, so it is as reasonable an explanation as any. Basically, it's a case of pick yer poison when it comes to what and how Gerard received his samples. Bear Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 14:47:32 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] suggestions To: "Cooks within the SCA" > Also, some sweet potato varieties grow all the way up to MA, but I doubt > that was true during the LIA, so it's possible that someone in the VA area > actually did have sweet potatoes. Since there is record of sweet potatoes being introduced to Virginia, the Carolinas, etc. during the 18th Century, the probability they were there earlier is minimal. Since a number of the people involved in the original colonization of Virginia knew sweet potatoes and had eaten them on other ventures, the fact they didn't mention sweet potatoes being there, suggests there weren't any to be had. sheep into the local economy > Potatoes came from the Andes. I don't think the *modern* varieties are > relevant when looking at where Europeans encountered potatoes. Since > potatoes didn't catch on very quickly, it may very well have taken several > Drakes & Raleighs totin' taters for the tuber to take root, so to > speak. :) The point is the Chilean subspecies was in existence at the time and capable of surviving in a wider range of climates. The hardiness of the Chilean potato made it key in the widespread use of potatoes. Carolus Clusius is more responsible for the spread of the potato than Drake or Raleigh. And the Royal Society and Antoine Auguste Parmentier are certainly more responsible for their adoption as a food crop. > I'm suspicious of a log entry that talks about 'two very fat sheep' when > the natives probably were using alpaca and were probas. You are obviously unfamiliar with the history of colonization on the West Coast of the Americas. The Spanish founded Valparaiso in 1536 and introduced sheep and cattle into the area. Alpacas were primarily a highland mainland animal and Drake was on an island at sea level. I'm also fairly certain Drake and his crew could tell sheep from some other critter. > It's hard to know what Ol' Billy was talking about, since the term > 'potato' was used for 'sweet potato' and probably yams, too. > http://www.bartleby.com/65/po/potato.html > > Duriel Gee, I always thought yams was yams. Anyway, Shakespere's usage suggests the sweet potato shape rather than that of some other "potato." Unknown tubers that look like potatoes are "bastard potatoes." BTW, what sources did Bartleby's reference? Bear Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 09:07:46 -0700 From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: [Sca-cooks] Yams, Pumpkins, Pecan Pie, was s'mores? To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org "Mike C. Baker" > Pumpkin is dessert, sweet potato can be either side dish or dessert > depending on preparation. (Yam, which *IS* different biochemically than > sweet potato, is less likely to appear as dessert than a sweet potato > dish.) Well, sometimes a yam isn't a yam. In the US there are two root vegetables that are actually just different varieties of the same plant. Both are long relatively narrow tubers with pointed ends and purplish-brown papery skin. One has deep orange colored flesh and one has yellow flesh. One is commonly called a "sweet potato" and the other is commonly called a "yam" - but in reality this so-called "yam" is just a sweet potato. Both are varieties of Ipomoea batatas. I am never sure which is which. One web page said that the deep orange fleshed variety are what are commonly called "yams" and the yellow fleshed are commonly called "sweet potatoes". But i grew up in the Chicago area eating the deep orange fleshed ones and i don't recall calling them yams. For photos, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweet_potato On the other hand there are starchy tubers in other parts of the world that have rough, thickish, cocoa-colored skin and a very hard white interior. Most have relatively little flavor. Some are massive - up to 7 feet long and 150 pounds - although in supermarkets in the US that sell them, they are either small, or cut into pieces weighing a few pounds. These are true yams, the name in English coming ultimately from the Wolof language "nyami" ("to eat"). There are over 150 varieties of these true yams which are of the genus Dioscorea (family Dioscoreaceae) and cultivated in and native to Africa, Asia, Latin America and Oceania. For photos of some honkin' huge yams and a short list of some species, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yam_%28vegetable%29 When i was in Indonesia, we ate several varieties. These were snack food - cooked, cut in large cubes, rubbed with crumbled "ragi tape' " which was a dry pastille made of yeast and spices, then allowed to ferment slightly (doesn't take long in Jakarta's hot humid climate). Whoa! Wikipedia even has a brief article about tape' !! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tapai -- Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM) the persona formerly known as Anahita Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 00:28:28 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Rumpolt's Earth Apples To: "Cooks within the SCA" <<< We've discussed this topic, and this very recipe, on this list within my memory. Since "erdapfel" is potato in modern German, some folks assumed this was a white potato recipe. However, Thomas Gloning, the food scholar formerly on this list, believed it referred to something else in the 16th C. His discussions can be found in the Florilegium: http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-VEGETABLES/potatoes-msg.html Other mentions on the net include: http://theoldfoodie.blogspot.com/2006/07/feasting-with-hemingway.html (erdepffle - a gourd? a fungus? something else?) Given how late the Andean potato arrived in Europe (around mid-16th century) and how inconclusive the evidence is for its use (some evidence that a few daring men eat them, no evidence of their common and frequent use), i certainly am not going to be cooking them for an SCA feast until there's more concrete information, and i would not encourage anyone to cook them. Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM) >>> My problem with equating Rumpolt's erdepffle to the white potato is the recipe is from 1581. John Gerard did not receive a sample until 1586 and Carolus Clusius, who was the head of the Hapsburg Botanical Gardens in Vienna, did not receive a sample until 1587. Rumpolt and Clusius were contemporaries in time and place, so if Rumpolt was preparing white potatoes, I would expect Clusius to already have samples. Clusius published an extensive herbal on the plants of Spain in 1572 (IIRC) and potatoes did not appear in the work, suggesting a limited or non-existent cultivation in the gateway country before 1570 (when Clusius was doing his field work, as I remember the timeline). The earliest definitive European recipe for the white potato I have encountered is from 1591. A 1542 translation of Platina into German translates, "Pepones a malopeponibus..." (I.20) as "Pfeben vnd Erdtoepfel." Bear Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 08:46:14 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] International Year of the Potato was Rumpolt's Earth Apples To: Cooks within the SCA And there's a new volume coming out-- Propitious Esculent: The Potato in World History by John Reader. Due out in June or July 2008. http://www.randomhouse.co.uk/catalog/book.htm?command=search&db=main.txt&eqisbndata=0434013188 It's out in the UK and been reviewed. http://books.guardian.co.uk/reviews/history/0,,2263377,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=10 Also -- Here's an interesting website: Potato Underground Welcome to the Potato Underground! We're a group of potato-lovers who will dish up the inside scoop on all things "tater." http://www.potatounderground.com/index.php/category/propitious-esculent/ Johnnae To: Authentic_SCA at yahoogroups.com Subject: on white potatoes and sweet potatoes Posted by: "Kathleen Keeler" kkeeler1 at unl.edu Date: Thu Jan 1, 2009 1:23 pm (PST) Hi again. Assuming the earlier post is lost, here is what I tried to say last night. I see my italics don't come through, which is a shame because they identify scientific names. I removed the comment I was replying to in hopes this won't vanish like the previous attempt to send it. -A Smartt and Simmonds,Evolution of Crop Plants is a series of chapters written by different authors on the various crops. I have the second edition, 1995. The chapter on potatoes, Solanum tuberosum, says "The first recorded European contact with the potato was in 1537 in the Magdalena Valley. [northern Andes, Colombia]. The Spanish invaders became familiar with the crop and it was probably about 1570 that a Spanish ship first introduced potatoes to Europe. Legends notwithstanding, Raleigh and Drake had no hand in the introduction. From Spain, potatoes were widely spread round Europe before the end of the century and were repeatedly the object of writings and drawings by the herbalists...A source in the northern Andes for the first introduction to Europe seems likely. "The potatoes of the central Andes were adapted to the prevailing short days of those latitudes; they tuber very late or not at all in the long days of a north temperate summer. Andean potatoes are therefore ill-adapted to Europe and indeed, it was nearly 200 years before the crop began to have any significant impact in its new home. By the late eighteenth century, clones adapted to long days had emerged." (N. W. Simmonds, U. Edinburgh, Scotland p. 468.) Looking in the same book at the entry on sweet potatoes, Ipomoea batatas, I find "Columbus brought the first sweet potatoes from the Americas to Europe, where they were referred to as "aje". These starchy types common to the West Indies were not sweet and were compared to carrots. Subsequent Spanish voyages to Central and South America brought back a sweeter type of sweet potato called 'batata" and 'patata" that the Europeans liked better. "( J.R. Bohac, P.D. Dukes, US Vegetable Laborator, Charleston SC and D.F. Austin Florida Atlantic Univ., p. 57) Interestingly, these guys go on to add "The Peruvian potato, Solanum tuberosum (later dubbed Irish potato) was introduced about the same time. Because it was better adapted in northern Europe, it became the predominant potato in northern Europe, whlie the sweet potato remained dominant in southern Europe" (ibid). I guess that refers to after the 18th century, since all but the last 100 years in ancient history to researchers. (Well, all but the last 5 years for molecular biologists). Sweet potatoes are a southern US crop, so presumably they still need a long season. I had thought the batata came from the Indian name of sweet potatoes. What I found is: my Latin dictionary gives no word at all like it and my unabridged English dictionary says potato is from batata which is from a Haitian word. Agnes deLanvallei Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 15:59:28 -0500 From: Anne-Marie Rousseau To: "Cooks within the SCA" , "Johnna Holloway" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Yams was Substitute for Potatoes? <<< Off hand, I can't think of any recipes in either the period European or Islamic corpus that use them. I don't even know if there is any evidence that they were used in the parts of the world from which we have surviving cookbooks. >>> Casteaus Ovverature de Cuisine (1604) has recipes for "tartufles". there is some discussion on if that is truffle or potato, but Cotgraves contemporary French:English dictionary describes them as as potatoes. Served with the proscribed red wine and butter sauce they are lovely :) --Anne-Marie, who is fully aware that teh occasional recipe for potato or turkey does not make them common fare for most of our sca period, and so thinks that their use should be limited to the wacky crazy nouveau items they were.... Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 17:32:36 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Yams was Substitute for Potatoes? That would make them circa 1580 as the manuscript for that book was written a full generation before it was published in 1604. The dating is included in Scully's version of La Varenne. Johnnae Anne-Marie Rousseau wrote: <<< Casteaus Ovverature de Cuisine (1604) has recipes for "tartufles". there is some discussion on if that is truffle or potato, but Cotgraves contemporary French:English dictionary describes them as potatoes. --Anne-Marie >>> Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 09:40:38 -0700 From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Yams was Substitute for Potatoes? Hello! My apologies for giving the simplistic explaination. The original text in casteau describes several recipes for "tartoufles". The word in medieval Italian (I was told) meant "truffle" but the recipes made no sense to be truffles....(stewed in red wine and butter? Roasted as one does chestnuts and served with sauce? ) In 1604, Olivier de Serres published his "theatre d'agriculture et mesange des champs". Therein he says "this plant, called cartoufle, bears fruits of the same name resembling truffles and so called by some" this can be paired with a botanical drawing by another artist, clearly showing a potato vine and its roots(A History of Food, Toussaint-Samat) Cotgrave does not give the word tartufle, as written by Casteau. He does however give the word Cartoufle (described as "a shrub that bears a mushroom-like fruit, also the fruit itselfe") and a separate entry for "truffe", which describes "a most daintie kind of round and russet root, or rootie excrescence, which growes in forests, or dry and sandie grounds, but without any stalke, leafe or fiber annexed unto it" We therefore can reach the conclusion that tartufle does NOT mean truffle (an item that had its own entry) and that cartufle based on cotgraves description meant potatoes. De Serre says that cartufles are sometimes called truffles by some (perhaps the Italians?) and there you go. Definite proof? No, of course not, but a logical conjecture based on several independent contemporary sources. Fun stuff, at least I think so :) --Anne-Marie, who is a total geek sometimes :) -------- Original Message -------- From: Anne-Marie Rousseau Casteaus Ovverature de Cuisine (1604) has recipes for "tartufles". there is some discussion on if that is truffle or potato, but Cotgraves contemporary French:English dictionary describes them as as potatoes. <<< I just looked through Cotgraves and didn't find it. Was it spelled differently? - Doc >>> Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 06:45:06 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: [Sca-cooks] Wellcome Library Receipt Books On another list someone quoted a 1654 potato pie recipe from a "cookbook" by Grace Acton that rang no bells with me as being something that was ever published in the 17th century, so I went looking. It turns up in a blog, which led to finding this: Title Acton, Grace Date 1621 Name Acton, Grace, fl.1621. Description Collection of cookery and medical receipts. The upper cover is lettered 'Herbes to season, herbes to cure'. Inside the upper cover in red ink 'Grace Acton, May 1621'. http://archives.wellcome.ac.uk/DServe/dserve.exe?dsqIni=dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqCmd=Show.tcl&dsqSearch=%28RefNo==%27MS1%27%29 That leads to this page at the Wellcome Library where they are at work digitizing their recipe manuscripts. http://library.wellcome.ac.uk/doc_WTL039966.html Sources Guide: Domestic medicine and receipt books ? 16th & 17th century Further information about the materials mentioned below can be found on the Archives and Manuscripts Online Catalogue Digital versions of all the 17th century manuscripts in this source guide are accessible via theArchives and Manuscripts Online Catalogue. Simply search on the relevant MS. reference and open up the catalogue record to view the PDF. Further information on the recipe books digitisation project. 16th century Anne de Croy, 'Recueil d'aulcunes confections et m?dicines', 1533 MS.222 Elisabethe von Gradnekh, Junkhfrawen Elisabethen von Grandnekh Ertzney Buec hell', 1544 MS.317 Elisabet Schitzin and others, 'Ertzney Biechl', 1581-1668 MS.732 There are dozens of 17th century items. Something for me to explore this week. Just thought I'd share Johnna Holloway Edited by Mark S. Harris potatoes-msg 60 of 60